Daily Life Skills, Sensory Challenges & Independence | Beyond Expectations Podcast Ep. 16

In Episode 16 of Beyond Expectations: Parenting Autism, Michelle Chabolla and Sean Dobson talk about the everyday life skills that can make a big difference for a child with autism—from getting dressed and brushing teeth to haircuts, dentist visits, sensory challenges, and building independence over time.

Michelle shares honest stories from raising Gregory, including what worked, what was hard, and why patience, preparation, and small steps matter.

This episode is a helpful listen for parents and caregivers navigating daily routines, sensory needs, and long-term independence.

This episode is proudly supported by Gregory’s Special Creations. Visit: http://www.gregorysgifts.com

Transcript

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Welcome to the podcast Beyond Expectations, Parenting Autism. Follow Michelle Shabola's journey of raising a child with autism, the challenges, victories, and rewards. If you're a parent, caregiver, or simply someone seeking to understand autism on a personal level, you're in the right place. Thank you guys for listening and watching. Last episode we covered a lot of life skills, and Michelle thought that today we should get a little deeper. And I think it's fascinating talking about daily life with an autistic child. Hello, Michelle. All right, let's do it. Lots of thin three stuff last time. So this time where I thought we would get into life skills as far as dressing and everyday life, and also things that we have to deal with that sometimes we don't want to deal with. Would would it help to just like lay out its wake-up time? Well, and maybe pick an age. Like it's wake up time, it's breakfast, it's bath, it's teeth, it's so like because it's just different, right? I mean, I obviously every autistic child is different as well. But with your story, I is that is it easier to lay it out that way? Like just go through like the day, because the rest of us take a lot of things for granted. Right. I I would like to, yes, we could do that, and we could start, I guess, at a younger age, and then I can tell you where where he's at now. So that might be a great comparison. As far as life skills, what I really, really, really like to focus on and for everybody is um the dress thing and where your child, like obviously a toddler, starts to put their shoes on, right? When do you remember your two-year-olds were so cute? They're trying to put their shoes on, they put them on the wrong feet, but you don't correct them, right? Because they they did something. Well, Gregory had a really hard time with his fine motor skills. His gross motor skills were great, but his fine motor skills, you know, like putting on his shoes. Well, fine motors are buttoning and snapping in your hands, right? You're fine, and your gross motor, he was crawling at four months, walking at nine months, running at 10 months, all those were like boom, boom, boom, which were really early, which we were like, Wow, it's amazing. Look at him, he's hitting a golf ball and he's you know eight months old. So that was all fun and games. And then we realized that the crawling that he pretty much didn't do a lot of, right? Because he crawled at four months and then boom, he was pulling up and walking, is a huge sensory thing, which we talked about last episode. Touching the carpet, touching the ground, touching the grass, right? Well, I really don't think he did that very much, and so those are all sensory inputs that you and I talked about. Oh, I see. He was moving past the things he didn't feel comfortable with, right? Interesting. And did we miss made a myth, you know, make a mistake by putting shoes and socks on him all the time? Because he really doesn't like to be barefooted. You never know, right? You just you kind of think back about what are these sensory things that we should have or shouldn't have done. But um I think learning how to dress is a huge deal. And I I really believe had I known earlier that I might have focused on it a little bit a little bit better than I did. I think it's easier to dress your kid and go, right? But if you have a typical developing child like Michael, he at two years old he was telling me what shirt he was gonna wear, what pair of pants he was gonna wear. Gregory never did that, so I just dressed him. Oh, interesting, right, instead of letting him do it, right? You know, you you remember let me do it, let me do it. You know, they we didn't go through that with him, so I might have focused a little bit. You always quote Allison who would say, I do it myself. I do it myself. This is the greatest, and I just love that. I'm not wearing this shirt. Excuse me, you're two years old, right? Well, with Gregory, we didn't go through that, and I I really feel like had I known earlier, I might have focused more on that. So all of those things were delayed. Um, the buttoning of the pants, the zipping. So we obviously did Velcro, we did Velcro shoes, tying a shoes. That's a really, really, really big challenge for him, which it is for a lot of kids. A lot of kids, but with him, it was it was very late coming. But I just think if you get the earlier you get the diagnosis, if you could work on those type of skills, it just makes it easier for everybody, right? You say work on the skills, is it kind of let them or ask them to dress themselves, ask them to put the shoes on? Instead of if they don't want to do it, or he didn't even try, right? He didn't even try, so maybe help them make them try because he just didn't have that. Um, I don't know what you would call it, an instinct or do it, or he just really wasn't interested in doing it. Well, you see, it says fine motor skills, which is which is wild now because today his his profession requires super precise fine motor skills. Very so it was so it was a delayed, it wasn't like they never developed it, it was just that they took their time, correct? And he never scribbled, he wrote. Interesting, yeah, right. So he didn't. I I think as a parent, he didn't want to mess up. That's is that like a so it's like perfectionism part of it? I don't know because I just when I'm around kids now, it's just amazing. I'm like, oh my gosh, look at him. He's just over there just scribbling, right? Just scribbling. Gregory never scribbled, and he never colored outside of the lines. When he started coloring, it was perfect. You remember that? And he colored the whole page, not just the figure on the page, but the all the way out to the edge. He colored it blue. You know, if it was a sky, it was completely covered, which was beautiful when he finished, right? But most children won't take the time to do that, they're just color it and move on, right? So those were interesting developmental as far as finding a little bit like perfectionism where we're gonna we're gonna complete it, we're gonna finish it, we're gonna stay involved in this thing until it's done. And it's and viewers of the whole thing, yeah. And that might that so that's kind of fascinating if those have you ever someone ever talked to you about like these other things that we talk about, hear about being diagnosed, like perfectionism or ADHD being somehow related to autism. No, no one's ever, we've never really went down that road. We never did. Um, yeah, it's it's so confusing, right? There's so many different labels and names, it's hard to right, right. And now adults are being diagnosed with ADHD. Oh, that's my problem. That's why I can't succeed, and that's why you know there's all these different things that I can't do because I may and they may very well be because uh when you know, maybe when they were young it wasn't around, but it was we never went down that road. I know a lot of parents that I met, their children, when they would say their diagnosis, they'd say autism and adh. They would definitely throw that in. They would say it was both. And so the the drugs that you you mentioned early on first episode that there were prescription drugs that were mentioned right away. Were what were those? Do you remember what those were? Are they the same things that they give kids that have the ADHD diagnosis? They were. It was Adderall, and then uh they wanted him on an anti-anxiety and an antidepressant. I remember Zoloft was one of them. I don't remember the exact name of um of the anti. It was three and you opted out of all of them, all of I never put him on anything. Never put him on anything. Wow, I just I and I don't know. I mean, like I said, I don't know if it was because it was just such an unknown thing at the time. I don't know if I would be different now. Yeah, but a three-year-old with three prescriptions, it yeah, it seems like a lot. We just didn't think it was the right, the right avenue. And they truly looked at me straight in my face and said they did not know what to do with an autistic child. Let's try this. He seems anxious, he seems depressed. This was 1990. So he was born in 94. Yeah, so this is about 98, 99. They're starting to give him prescriptions, right? Wow, wow. So we never we never went down that road. And like I said, I I don't want to say one way or the other, I know it's different for everybody, but that's the mom's mom's mom and dad's role, they'll figure it out, right? That's their decision, right? I'm just here to say what we did with Gregory. That's fantastic, yeah, exactly. So so as he started to age and other kids had shoes that tied, and other kids had pants that buttoned and zipped, and he didn't. What what was that like? So it was really hard. Um, kids can be a little mean sometimes, but a lot mean. Did he notice though? Did he care that his pants were different than anyone else's? No, I think it hurt my feelings more than it did. He didn't know. He didn't, he didn't realize he didn't know he's being teased, or he didn't know his clothes were different. He's never ever figured out bullying and teasing ever to this day. Today's a museum, he's immune to bullying, he's immune. Wow, matter of fact, in middle school, he turned bullies around because he didn't react the way they wanted him to react. Right. Just like, what are you doing? Yeah, I mean, it just didn't work, so they were like, What am I doing this for? And that's the age, right? Middle school when you're trying to figure out who you are and all that. Wow, yeah. As we as we build later, later in your series when we talk about uh adult life, that must be a problem, though, because there are people that will take advantage of you, and you have to be yeah, because I guess what I'm trying to what I'm trying to figure out is is it because he always thought the best of people and just trusted people and didn't imagine someone would be out to hurt his feelings? I think in Gregory's world, as my dad would say, if Gregory's in charge of the world, it'd be a much better place to live. Everybody is honest, everybody is sincere, everyone keeps their word, keeps their promise. Like, yeah. So he just does so if someone's mean or or Henri just why would somebody be mean? Why would somebody be mean? Why would they do that? That that's not right. So why would they do that? That's interesting. Answer that question. But but it's kind of it's yeah, it's kind of fascinating. There must be a lot of work on this because that's also kind of like this whole everything is good and perfect, right? Right. The world is perfect. That's fascinating. So so the so like velcro shoes, like pull-on pants, but still like he dressed himself. So that gave him that gave him tools that he could use to dress himself. Correct. So he's correct basically made it made it a little bit easier, right? So that he could do it. Correct. And now it's all very popular. Slip-on shoes. Everybody wears sweatpants, right? Yeah, exactly. He was ahead of his time, we'll say exactly. Yeah, that's fascinating. Well, maybe maybe that maybe that makes it for the autistic for a kid with autism. Maybe that makes it a little less different, you know. Well, it gets a little bit better. Sketchers runs a whole line of $150 pair of shoes that you don't have to bend down to put on. Yeah. That's fascinating. So right, so much easier to be accepted and not stand out, you know, right. So let's talk about those periodic things you have to do. Like you have to get your teeth cleaned, you have to get your hair cut, you have to get inoculations, right? So maybe pick those one apart. What'd you learn? How'd you get through them? Which were like what were harder, which was which was less hard. Obviously, shots were are shattering for him because you can only imagine if you have all that sensory going on how much a needle or and let me tell you, he's 31, and just in the last six months, he has conquered blood test. Oh, really? Giving blood. Talk about ancients. Yes, yes. And so we when you say sensory, maybe we should pull that up a little bit. When you say these sensory things, like what does that mean for someone that's just gotten a diagnosis and they're wandering around and they bump into us? So you say sensory, like maybe fill that out a little bit. What do you mean? So oversensitized to the whole environment, right? Their skin is extra sensitive, everything to them is at a level much higher because they're not processing the environment, right? Interesting, like we do, so they're super sensitive. Um, a needle, I can't even imagine what a needle would feel like to him. Getting a haircut, I know a lot of people struggle with haircuts, but then you'll also see some that really struggle with haircuts. Haircuts were a nightmare. That's all I can say. Did he imagine that that having the haircut was gonna hurt? No, it's the hair falling on him, feeling like needles. You know how itchy hair is? Yeah, just couldn't take it. Every haircut, we took an extra t-shirt. He cut his hair. It didn't matter what you do, you took it off, you shook it out, you took it outside, you shook it out. He would not put it back on. He couldn't put it back on. So we got a haircut and we put it, you know, the little cape on as tight as you possibly could, kept the hair off him. I mean, it's impossible, but as much as we could, and then we would immediately go in the restroom and get all the hair off of his shoulders and put a new shirt on him. Every haircut, even though he's had the even though he's had the the apron thing, what do you call it? Does it matter? It was still there, it was still touching him somewhere. It was touching him, and it just was not happening, and screaming and crying, and you know, we gave him his fair first haircut before he was diagnosed. Yeah, so we're we're taking pictures. We just think this is oh, look at him, and it was just torture, it was complete torture for him. Oh huge sensory thing with kids. Just now you'll pay attention if you'll see on Instagram, you know, some little boy getting his haircut and he's freaking out. It's a huge sensory thing, it really is. Wow, and the buzzer touching their neck, so it's all of that. So it's any anywhere you touch them, anywhere. They're just you what you would describe it as like it's you're just like for us, if someone touches you and it's a level one for them, it's a level 10 of like a pain. So just the pain is amplified, the feeling every feeling is amplified, right? So and then it's the same thing for hearing, so for sound, light, light. What about vibration? What about like riding in a car and the car is vibrating, that kind of thing, or or like like a like a ride in an amusement park or something that's wobbly? Yeah, not so much there. He loved and's always loved amusement parks and like Chuck E. Cheese, which I couldn't even stand to be in Chuck E. Cheese. But he to me that's central load game. Well, again, though, game rooms. Here we go back to the glad he doesn't have an iPad at two years old. Anything to do with games and videos, it just lit him up. He just loved it. Um, did not send him over the edge, did not have meltdowns, but he he he was able to handle those environments. I think it was what was in that environment. What about taste? Is he super sensitive to like spicy foods? No, never had a texture problem that I can remember as far as food. Always been a really good eater, and not had a pretty a pretty broad spectrum of things, leave pretty broad palette, pretty broad, and which is not normal. A lot of them, uh, a lot of autistic kids have a real texture problem. A lot of kids have are picky eaters, they don't like certain textures and tastes and stuff. And I never really went through that with Gregory. He he was a really good eater from day one. I mean, he would you know not do everything, but so when you were you spent time um assisting in the public school system and were helping out with other autistic kids, right? How long did you how long did you do that? I did that for oh my goodness, from the time he was in kindergarten, basically how it happened was he had a para, and you know, paras could show up or not show up, nobody really cared. And if his para was absent, I said, I don't want him to miss school, and I don't want him to be put aside for that day into a room, call me and I'll come work with him. And so I did that several times in the school. I mean, they're like, you know what? You just need to be here. So that's you have to get served by something. Did you go through some training? I was just a paraprofessional, I just basically just worked with special needs kids underneath the special ed teachers. So you were saying from kindergarten to high school? Uh yes, I was kindergarten. I went to middle school, I didn't work in the high school, those kids were big, but I did do it when he was in high school. So the whole time the whole time he was in the school system pretty much. So like seven years, eight years? Yeah, at least. So so what's interesting for your podcast is that your experience isn't just Gregory, your experience is hands-on working with kids out in this paraprofessional role. So you can talk a little bit about like other other kids, and what's what's common? At least in your experience, what was the common traits, common experiences, common needs to you know, to uh to help them across how many kids? 20 kids, 30 kids, 50 kids. Oh, at least at least 50 kids. Yeah, wow. Well, that's that makes the value makes your experience even the more valuable. And I'm glad you're sharing it with people. That may be why I say they instead of him. Well, I mean, no, that's true, but I think it's important for people to know that like obviously you're you're realistic that your experience is your experience, right? But it does involve more than one kid, and um, and and through those crucial developmental years of you know, of you know, first grade to eighth grade. So it's a bunch of them. So it is pretty viable, pretty vital experience. And you do see the spectrum big time, big time, all the way from zero to ten, and then you realize you learn what Asperger's is. I didn't know what that was. You you learn all the different ranges, right? And it makes it real interesting in the real world when you meet people, it really does, it really broadens that. Yes, you understand. I think you understand people so much better. I hope people that listen to this get something out of it. I don't want them to go around diagnosing people, but you know, yeah, understand more, I think. That's that might look my completely layman's unprofessional view of it is that the labels sometimes are not helpful because with a label creates expectations. And you're right. I mean, they call it the autism spectrum, just you know, the spectrum for a reason, right? Because right, and and I don't know where it begins or ends, and I don't know where I'm on it, I don't know where my neighbor's on it, but like none of us are are immune from you know having nervous systems that are that are tired that are trying at times, right? That like I don't I don't do well in loud crowd, you know, in loud places, crowded places. I have a bunch of the same symptoms that I think you would find with Gregory. Uh but I think I'm lucky is that I have coping mechanisms. I I can I got I don't have it so severe enough that I can't figure out how to get myself out of the situations mostly on my own. Right. Maybe maybe that's the difference between sort of a diagnosis and just uh people that prefer different social settings and different you know reactive noises and lights and feeling differently than others. Right. Yeah, it's it's it's kind of fascinating. So we talked about so haircuts is interesting, right? So like to be aware that when that piece of hair falls on them, it might it might feel like you said, a needle falling on instead of just a piece of hair fauna, which is frightening that you would be doing that and not know you're doing it, right? I mean, that's just right, right. I think what am I right? And I think one of the things that we learned later on was maybe take that buzzer and just lay it on them, you know, let them vibrate on them somewhere else and show them it's not gonna hurt them, get them used to the razor, and then the haircuts the same way, just you know, show them maybe somebody else getting a haircut right beside them and see how they handle it instead of just throwing that kid in the chair and expecting him to just to know what's gonna happen, right? Right, and that I'm telling you, that was that was one of the hardest things I think that we we went through. It really was yeah, a haircut. Wow. What about other daily? So we talked about uh this infragment thing. So what about uh the dentist? Or what about just brushing teeth in general? Brush your teeth daily, going to dentist, flossing. How did you how was all really well? I only take him to a dentist that's trained for special needs. I have I have now lately, like in the last six months, there wasn't anybody there, but there was a very gentle hygienist, and basically they're not gonna get in there and go to town like they do on you and I. They're gonna clean, they're gonna get his teeth cleaned. But it's got amazing. Something I didn't even know existed. There's a special training for dental professionals to deal with kids, the kids like Gregory, people like Gary. Sensory. How the world do you find that sensory? Where do you find it? I well, I just call every practice that I can possibly, I just call the practices around here, and there will be one. There will be a code word of like what's the code word? Is it just I have an autistic child? Special needs interesting. They can handle they can handle all different types of special needs, down syndrome, autism, they can do it all. It's just a completely different practice, right? You're not gonna go in there and Bang away and walk out in 15 minutes. That appointment needs to be a little bit longer. You need to be a little kinder. You need to be a little more gentle. And that appointment might be a two visit appointment. Oh. You may get half of the mouth done and he's done. Gotta go. And then come back and do the other half later. Um, all of these things that you and I just, oh my gosh, I gotta run to the dentist, get my teeth cleaned and you're back at work. That doesn't happen. That when we have a dentist appointment, that's our day. Oh, that's the whole day. We don't come back and work, we we pretty much focus on it and we get ready for it, and it's very successful now. Oh, yes. Yes. What about when what about when he was younger? About when he was six or eight. We went to a pd, you know, we went to special dentist for little kids, but we also went to special special needs pediatric dentist. And I started in the beginning when he didn't get his teeth cleaned, right? Just taking him and visiting and letting him, you know, lay in the chair, open his mouth. Kind of like the separate haircut, like let's go see what goes on here before we get on. Don't just throw them in it. You gotta but Gregory, I really the practice was okay with that. They were like, Yeah, bring him down, show them around. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's so that's so cool. Yeah, just come on in. Let's they show them the tools, lay in the chair, look in the mirror, the whole the whole thing, and then they leave, right? Nothing happened. And next time, now this time they're gonna look in your mouth and they're gonna feel around, and you just kind of very baby steps, very, very baby steps. But he's very successful at the dentist now, very successful. Even went through braces. Braces was hysterical. His brother got braces, boom, took him in there and got them, right? Gregory needed braces first and was older, but he wasn't having any part of the braces, he knew what they were. You know, we were telling him what they were. He was 15, 14, 15. He wanted to make sure his brother survived them. So he went, we let him go. Michael watched him put him on, do the bands and everything. And you know, it's painful. There's you know, there's some pain involved in it, I guess. I've never had them. And um, as soon as he knew Michael was gonna live through it, I'll get braces. I said, Are you sure? Wow. So he did, but watching Michael, watching Michael do it, and he's got beautiful teeth, just being super cautious and and super like you know, risk averse, right? Right, just making that's that's amazing. So, what about daily brushing of the teeth? Was that a huge struggle? Or were there any tricks or hacks to the to that? Big struggle, and it really worried me. But he, like I said, he has amazing teeth, so he doesn't like the splashing mess. I mean, you have to admit, brushing your teeth is a mess, yeah, right. It is anything like that at all. So he has an electric toothbrush that he has in the shower, and that way the mess is gone, right? Oh, the shower itself can can wash it away, right? So he brushes his pain. So going back to sensory, that like brushing your teeth can hurt, right? If you have tender gums or whatever, he didn't have he didn't have an issue with the the toothbrush being his mouth as much as he had a problem with like the whole process being messy in disorderly because see he could control the pressure, right? So I got him an electric toothbrush, and that controlled the cleaning, and then he controlled the pressure, so it's kind of twofold there. But flossing oh, I was gonna ask how flossing work complete nightmare until about seven months ago, 31 years old. That's why I said I'm so glad he's got good teeth, and he goes every six months to get them cleaned, and they would always go, Well, Gregory, you need to floss. I know, I know. Don't remember an old Jeff Foxworthy joke where the dentist says it hurts him. There's this old Jeff Foxworthy joke where the where he's where the dentist says, Jeff, when's the last time you flossed? And Jeff says, Well, sir, I think you did it. And I don't think they were able to do it on him because you know how they pop it in your mouth and pull it out. Oh, it hurts, yeah, and they're hitting your nose or whatever. So, no, nobody flosses teeth. But like six, eight months ago, he's watching Shark Tank. And he must have written this down somewhere because I wasn't with him watching it, and uh, it was prior to him moving to his house, and he said, I've got a great idea, and I said, What's your idea? And he said, I'm gonna buy this, and he shows me this, and he would die. I think it's called oh gosh, I can't remember the name of it now. He'd be so angry. It's an electric flosser, and it was on shark shark tank. An electric flosser. Does it use water or something? No, it's just like a toothbrush, and you put the little head on it, like the little placards that you can buy, and you turn it on and it pops it up. It's it's crazy, it moves it, and but he saw it on TV. Life has changed, he flosses his teeth by himself now. That's amazing. Yeah, I think the right stuff is interesting. I guess you know this, but I'll point it out is that there's milestones being had. We talked about a couple of milestones in the last year at 31 years old. I know. I mean, for parents out there, it must be super intimidating to hear that, right? Like it is, I know. And I just I literally we just had a show this past weekend in San Antonio, and I had more tears. You know, you just have those people that are going through it, right? What causes tears? Well, they're they're they walk up and stress up their situation, yes, they meet him and they just they just have a meltdown. I call it a meltdown. They literally have a meltdown in our our uh tent or our van, and she just starts trying. Of course, she was buying buying everything she could possibly buy. And I'm like, wait a minute, and she's like, This is amazing, and she's just bothering. Well, why don't you say why spell it out? Why are why are they her neck? Her nephew is not talking, and he's seven, I believe he's seven years old. They can't get him to do anything, all he wants to do is watch TV and play on his iPad, right? And she's like, How, how, how did you do this? And so we sat down and we must have talked for an hour. And there's no answer, there's absolutely no answer. All I could do is tell her what I did. Yeah, just tell her what I did. I'm like, you just gotta get him out, you gotta, you know, get him interested in something else and see what happened. But how did you know? And I'm like, I didn't know this. This happened, right? This just happened. This wasn't training, but I guess to your credit, you weren't afraid to try this and try that and try this. And I always think two things, you weren't afraid to experiment, and you were super, super empathetic. Because can't you get super frustrated with the person that's autistic and they want to have a an extra visit to the dentist and extra this? It's like, yeah, but they want to have a massage. Yeah, me too. I mean, isn't isn't there part of it? Is that you just have to like find the patience of Job somewhere? You do, you're just you're you're just their number one, and I I think too, and that'll be a whole nother episode is how Michael dealt with all this too, being a sibling, because whatever Gregory needed, that's what we did. Yeah, to this day. Yeah, well, everyone's making special accommodations, provisions, accommodations, right? Special accommodations, and he's no trouble. I don't want people to think that he's no burden at all whatsoever. And at this point, I could send him to you for a week. I would not even worry about him because he's so self-sufficient, yeah. And you've been with him, so you know, yeah, and now you're learning about him. But he was dirty before I took him on a fishing trip without you. Yeah, he was he was dirty before I got to before I it all worked out that I could take him somewhere without you. I mean, that's not right. Right. So now you're comfortable with it, and you'd have no problem picking him up and taking him with excitement. He's fantastic to be around because, like you said, in his world, everything's great, right? Everything's been done. He's he loves to give you a hard time. He he cracks jokes, which I think is interesting because a joke is actually a pretty intelligent thing to be able to do, right? Like a joke is hard, but he but he gets it. He can tell he can tell jokes, he knows what's funny. Um, but yeah, he's completely self-sufficient, which is which is why it's so important that we may not be the world's best podcasters, but that's why this story is so important, is because I do, and that's why I just do have a remarkable outcome. You'll just hear me say over and over and over life skills, life skills, life skills, because I'm not gonna live forever. I lost my husband, he was 48. You never know what tomorrow brings, and if he ended up coming to live with you, right? It would be easy, it wouldn't be a burden, it would not be a burden. Obviously, your life would change a little bit, but it would not be a burden where you were literally taking care of bathing and changing diapers of an adult and stuff like that, right? Absolutely, dealing with violence. I have friends who who really horrible stories of of their adult autistic children becoming violent, especially the boy, right? Right. So, like your outcome here is amazing. We are just and we'll we'll we'll keep trying, like I said, we're we're none of us. This is our first podcast of people quite like no kidding. But but I think we'll keep pulling we'll keep pulling out these hacks and these and these stories, and in the hopes that it helps somebody. Anybody, right? Even one it helps one word. All right, that's right. Absolutely. That was episode four. You did a great job until next time. See you next time. Okay.