Beyond Expectations: Parenting Autism

Understanding Sensory Processing with Rhonda Whitney | Beyond Expectations Podcast Ep. 22

• Michelle Chabolla • Episode 22

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0:00 | 46:01

In Episode 22 of Beyond Expectations: Parenting Autism, Michelle Chabolla and Sean Dobson welcome occupational therapist Rhonda Whitney to explain sensory processing and how it affects children with autism.

Rhonda shares practical strategies to help parents better understand sensory needs, emotional regulation, and simple tools that can make everyday life easier for children and families.

This episode is proudly supported by Gregory's Special Creations. Shop Gregory's handmade gifts at http://www.gregorysgifts.com.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the podcast Beyond Expectations, Parenting Autism. Follow Michelle Shabola's journey of raising a child with autism, the challenges, victories, and rewards. If you're a parent, caregiver, or simply someone seeking to understand autism on a personal level, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_03

This is Michelle with Beyond Expectations. We are back for an amazing informational episode with a guest, and we have Rondolyn Whitney here and of course John Dobson.

SPEAKER_02

Hi, Rondolyn. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01

Hello, thank you. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02

We're excited to have you here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So shall I introduce myself for a minute? Can you take a minute? Okay. Sure. So uh I'm an occupational therapist. My area of specialty was working with children with uh neurobehavioral disorders, uh, autism, nonverbal learning disability, bipolar, ADHD, just a whole cluster. You know, they they it all falls kind of in a soup anyway, so it all's in that little that bucket.

SPEAKER_02

So there's very these labels are frustrating because they can be frustrating.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and we we can talk about that today if you'd like, because I I think that's an interesting um uh idea of of why it's like that. Anyhow, uh those are the kids I worked with, and of course, when I'm working with children, that means I'm working with families and I'm working with the systems, the schools, and the community. So that was my work. Um I have advanced practice specialties in sensory integration, uh, which uh be really great to talk about. I did a rotation at Ayers um clinic out in California, so I got to learn right there with her stuff, which was nice. Uh, and then I had the great um uh privilege of working alongside of some of the people that actually worked with and they were trained by Jean Ayers, who is the founder of sensory integration as a theoretical intervention. Um, and so they really understood the cis the sensory system in ways that a lot of other people downstream over the years either don't understand or have um uh deviated from. So working with them allowed me to understand the um evidence behind sensory integration as an intervention. So that I know that's something that Michelle, you and I talked about, and that I'd like to talk a little bit more about it today.

SPEAKER_02

That's great. I already have like 19 questions. So legit here. I don't know anything about this whole topic.

SPEAKER_01

Excellent.

SPEAKER_02

I try to imagine the questions that people might ask.

SPEAKER_01

So I'm I think there's nothing better than to have an open mind and know very little because then you get to ask the questions that other people don't think to ask because they think they already know.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm playing the idiot very well. So I'm not familiar with the Ayers work or the Ayers clinic, so maybe start there.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So Jean Ayers, uh, back in the 50s, was a uh a neurologist, and she worked primarily with individuals with the ADHD, and she started noticing that there were um I'm gonna hijack her story a little bit, but she started noticing that there seemed to be something else going on neurophysiologically that was in the way of them being able to regulate. So a lot of people talk about um sensory integration and regulation, but she really thought that there was something going on that was uh inhibiting the uh child's ability to integrate information through the eyes, ears, nose, mouth, etc., the all of those systems. And just a sidebar to kind of put it in context, if we were to look at the uh nervous system, all nerves to the brain are sensory nerves, and all nerves from the brain are motor nerves. It's just the way everything's wired. Now, once it gets in the brain, they like you know mess around a little bit, but all nerves to the brain, so the way we understand our world information in, action out, basically. Exactly. So the way we understand our world is through the senses. And you know, when we're in kindergarten, we teach the five senses, but there's actually more like eight senses. Um, neurologist neurologists think there's probably more like 200 senses, but we're gonna talk about eight because that just um helps us understand it. So Gene Ayres was really the first person to sort of think about this and put it together and say if a child can't organize and integrate information coming into their body, it's gonna be really hard for them to use it in behalf of the things they want to do. So her theory specifically says sensory integration for use. So oftentimes I see people that provide sensory input and call it sensory integration, but it's not because you have to do sensory integration for use. So you use the the um principles of the intervention, and then you give the child something to do that they really couldn't do before, so that you put that pathway together. So sensory integration for use is AIR's sensory integration uh approach.

SPEAKER_02

Wow. That's that sounds incredible. So so in your so so tell us about going in your in your practice, um, I guess what is that to put more context on it. So when you're when you're sort of you using these interventions, how do you how do you break it down to like a most simple this most simple?

SPEAKER_01

So let me let me tell you a little bit about let me define um the senses that uh we pay the most attention to, and then talk about how to sort of do an intervention um uh during a treatment, I think we put it in context for you. So the senses that we talk about, the ones we all know are eyes, ears, nose, mouth, right? Um sense of touch, that's a big one. Um, but the sense of touch has two different pathways. There's one that brings information like tickly touch, itch, temperature fast, and then we have the deep pressure system, which is um a um a bigger nerve, and it's it's organizing. So that's why, you know, it's sort of silly if you ever hit your um thumb with a hammer. It doesn't make sense, but the first thing you do is grab it and squeeze it. That doesn't make sense. It seems like you'd want to like not touch it, but you grab it and squeeze it because you're taking pain, which is the tickly touch and pain and itch system, and you're putting in deep pressure, which regulates, calms, and organizes that input. So the touch system has two. We also talk about the vestibular system, that's that system in your inner ear that tells you where your head is in space when you're going round and round or you're going forward, and you've probably had that experience sitting in your car where you're minding your own business, you're sitting at the red light, and the car beside you goes backwards and you freak out and you push the brake. That's because your vestibular system got information through the eyes and said, Hey, I'm moving. And then you push out with to the brake, and then you're your the rest of you says, No, I'm not silly, right? But that's that the visual and vestibular system works together. Uh, and then the um the proprioceptus system uh is is that system in the joints and muscles, so it tells us where our arms are and where our body is in space and time, tells us how heavy something is. You can play a lot of fun tricks on people with a proprioceptus system. There's this great um trick where uh like a comedian walks in with a box and they act like it's super, super, super heavy and they struggle and they hand it to a person, and that person is watching this and calibrating how heavy the load is without really thinking about it, but they do that. And then you put the empty box in their hands and their arms will go up, right? So that's the proprioceptive system. Um, when the proprioceptive system is not working uh in a um typical fashion, those are kids that break their pencil lead, or they push too hard, or they push too softly, or they can't figure out how to make their fingers work together to make buttons or zippers go together because that system and the joints and muscles is just not quite working. So let's see, did I get each of the systems?

SPEAKER_02

Oh is that the reason I can't handwrite very well?

SPEAKER_01

Um the reason you can't handwrite uh very well is a little more complicated, but if you want, I can help you handwrite in a pretty good way. You can't read it.

SPEAKER_02

That's interesting, we're Ronald, as we go through all the symptoms that Gregory has, we realize that we all have some version of it.

SPEAKER_01

We all have some version of it, yes, yes. Um the uh final system, uh sensory system that I think is really important to talk about, and we really just started talking about it about 10 years ago, uh, is called the introsceptive system. And the introsceptive system, each of these systems only works because it has a receptor, and some kind of input makes that receptor fire. So if I get visual input in my eyes, my receptors fire. If I get auditory input through my eyes, nothing happens. That makes sense, right? So in the introstors are in the organs in your body inside, and they really only pay attention to um distinction and pressure, and that's really pretty important. So your stomach says, I'm empty, I'm full. Your heart says, I'm empty, I'm full. Your colon says, I'm empty, I'm full. This gets back to what we're gonna talk about with the brushing in a minute. I'm empty, I'm full. And the way I like to explain it is it kind of makes a lot of sense. Like you don't want your colon to say anything other than I'm empty or full. You don't want it talking to you about anything else, like TMI, right? It's like, okay, you're full. That's that's your interoceptive system. And we're learning a lot more about that system uh over the most recent uh years. Uh, and it comes into play a lot with people who have anxiety, like I don't know why I feel this way, I can't locate why I feel this way. Um it is um um prone to uh trauma, it gets uh faulty messaging during trauma for children. So, anyway, so those are the systems that we'll talk about today. So at the end of the whole story about the sensory system, sensory integration for use, we want the system to be in balance, we want it to be regulated, and we know that we can put information into the nervous system that alerts you or calms you down, right? That makes sense. So I could scream really loud. I'm an alto, so it's hard for me to scream loud enough that would really annoy you, but um there are things that we can do that really activate somebody's, you know, fight, flutter, fright, and things that we can do to calm it down.

SPEAKER_03

A baby crying.

SPEAKER_01

Right, a baby crying. So um an alto singing, right, is really calming, that kind of thing. So um what gene errors helped us understand is when the certain sensory system is um not regulated, it's either too high or too low, we can put information into the proprioceptive system or the deep pressure touch system, and that helps regulate it, and it has to do with the way the nerves are like a freeway. And that takes us back to brushing. Now we can talk about brushing. So, brushing bear with me for the whole story. Brushing does not work. I live that stay with me, stay with me for just a second.

SPEAKER_03

For those that don't know what we're talking about, this isn't this is my only job here on the the will barger brushing protocol brushing method, and we did talk about it somewhere.

SPEAKER_02

We talked about this, but it but it is it is literally brushing.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's using a it's using a surgical scrub brush, and you and you brush the skin of a child.

SPEAKER_02

One direction, like you're not scrubbing, you're you're doing correct, one direction.

SPEAKER_01

Very good.

SPEAKER_02

And Gregory, and Gregory, is this something that you used to try with Gregory?

SPEAKER_03

I did, I did with Gregory. This is this is what changed my life with Gregory big time. Okay, now Rondolin says it's Rondolyn. I interrupted you. You said stay with you and we interrupted you. Stay with me on this.

SPEAKER_01

All right. All right, Patty Wobarger uh and uh created the brushing protocol, and the brushing protocol does not work, but don't quote me there. You have to let me finish the whole sentence. The brushing protocol is a systematic way to deliver deep pressure and proprioception in a very systematic way so that it goes on all the skin, the deep pressure on all the skin. So when you use the brush to deliver the deep pressure input, you're pushing down on the breast so that the bristles are bent, right? You don't do light tickly touch, you push down really hard. A lot of times, if you do it correctly, you're sweaty at the end of delivering the input. So it's it's it it's you know, it's got and then the second part of the quote brushing is you do joint compressions, right? You push the pull on the joints and muscles, that's proprioception. So deep pressure and proprioception, and the brushing protocol was designed to help parents and other people deliver deep pressure and proprioception in a systematic, regulated way.

SPEAKER_02

Interesting. So so I'm I'm catching up here. The deep pressure, I understand what is the other the proprioception proprioception.

SPEAKER_01

So I'm gonna I'm gonna have you do some proprioception to yourself.

SPEAKER_02

All right.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So if you take your fingers and you push really hard on your fingers, all right, and then you pull on all your fingers.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

If you were nine years old and in my clinic, and we were gonna work on handwriting, we would get your hands ready for good work by pushing and pulling on your joints and muscles that use a pencil.

SPEAKER_02

Interesting. And the concept there is that it does what to the joints? By by opening them up, you increase the neural pathways or you're yeah, we're we're actually not working on the joints so much as we're giving input into the brain carried through the joints and muscles of your hands, that wakes up your brain, has it be regulated, so that when we put a pencil in it, it says, Okay, I can be calm now, I can be organized now.

SPEAKER_01

I have more input through the touch system. A lot of children have difficulty with writing because they hate the way it sounds on the paper, the pencil, they hate the way it feels where it's been um, you know, the wood. They hate the way it smells. They got all kinds of reasons for hating it. So if we put deep pressure and proprioception into the system, that gives us a little bit of a regulation for the child so that we can then give them some work to do. And in your case, if you were nine years old, that might be working with your pencil for handwriting.

SPEAKER_02

Interesting. So really it's it's I'm catching up now. So it's basically priming your nervous system by very intentionally producing those signals that go into your brain that regulate your system. Those things are they're effectively your is this your subconscious, or we call this your autonomic system? What do we call this?

SPEAKER_01

This is your sensory nerve, this is your nervous system, your sensory nervous system.

SPEAKER_02

Your sensory nervous system that's processing information that you're really not aware, it's processing.

SPEAKER_01

You may or may not be aware, but you are always aware of your sensory processing one way or another. Some people are over-registering information, like a slightest breeze, and they're like, right? Um, that's over-registering, and some are under-registering, they're like, What? Yeah, you're like, you got food all over your face. Like, what? Like under-registering, right? So over-registering or under-registering, and you can over and under-register in any of the sensory systems.

SPEAKER_02

Interesting. And so your therapy, and the the the therapy you're talking about, is this therapy that that with very intentional inputs basically allows you to, I don't want to say reset, but you're saying regulate. Regulate. Right, regulate your nervous system. I've heard these terms before. I didn't really know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we want we want to integrate those systems. And in a typical, typically developing nervous system with babies, those systems are getting integrated when they crawl, when they walk, when they play, when they rock, and so on. But for some nervous systems, I like to talk about nervous systems and not people, but for some nervous systems, they need more input in order to integrate. Some need less in order to integrate, and so they avoid it, right? And so, because of those two things, they're not getting the kind of input that a typical developing nervous system would be getting. And so then when we give them work to do, holding a pencil, being a good friend, whatever it is, they're uh they're not ready to do it. Developmentally, they're not ready to do it. So air sensory integration uh as an approach, as a science, uh, systematically provides that input. It's a developmental theory, so it systematically provides that information into the nervous system to help it develop in a more typical fashion, to catch up, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02

You explained that so well. It makes sense. So, what are the what are other kinds of sort of inputs that you can sort that you can intentionally provide? There are a whole range of them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so if if you've ever seen a sensory integration clinic, it's it's like a playroom, right? It's got all kinds of stuff going on. So there's uh suspended equipment, uh uh maybe with a um like a um what do they call it, like a board, swing, uh, and it's suspended, right? And so the child might sit on that and we twirl them or we rock them back and forth. And while they're doing that, that's the vestibular system. They're getting input into the vestibular system. When you get input into the vestibular system, I can't talk about it without moving. You get input into the vestibular system, your proprioceptive system, your muscle system wants to correct. So, Sean, you don't remember me having one in my basement in Colorado?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I remember, but I but you know, so many people have Gregory would not get dizzy, Rondolin.

SPEAKER_03

He could not get it. I'm gonna I'm gonna name that for you.

SPEAKER_01

He was under registering.

SPEAKER_03

So Gregory was under-registering vestibular input into his spun him and spun him and spun him and spun him, and he would get off and walk a straight line. And I will never forget the day that he fell down when he got off, because we that's what he did every day. We just Sean just in a circle as fast as you could spin him, and he would just laugh and get off and walk right off. Like you put Michael on it, and he never get dizzy, never got dizzy, you'd have to assume that you believe it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and so we we we say of children they never they never get dizzy, and then if we were to say that in uh scientific neurological neurological terms, or if we were to write that in the chart, under-registering of vestibular input. Wow. And then now I have a question for you. So if a person is under-registering or over-registering for sensory input, I have two tools in my toolkit to help them become more integrated and regulate. Do you remember what they are? I brushed Gregory, I did the swing. Okay, so well, let's let's again, one of the things that I thought was really fascinating, Michelle, when you and I talked before the podcast, that I'm really committed to. I'm really committed to helping parents and families understand what is going on so that they are able to choose 10 more things without me being there to help them. Right. That they can say, okay, it's kind of like, you know, I'm a I I grew up in the South, I'm a scratch cook. So I can open an empty refrigerator and make a meal for 20 people. Like I that's how I was taught, right? And it's because I know what things go well together and I know what to choose and what not to choose, right? So sensory integration as a uh air sensory integration uh approach is like that. We need to help people understand why did this work? Okay, good. Now that I understand that, what's 10 more things like that I can do? Because then the child gets enough doses throughout their day, they're gonna get better faster because they're getting it 20 times a week instead of once a week. So I'm really passionate about this. So go back to your story. I know without having been there, when um Jeffrey Gregory was on the swing, um, I know that after you did the swinging, you had to do some kind of deep pressure and proprioception after maybe. While he was on the swing, he was pulling on a rope, which would be proprioception. Maybe he was catching a heavy ball, which would be proprioception. Maybe he was listening to music with deep tones, which would be proprioception, into the eardrums. Maybe he was squeezing putty, which would be proprioception. Or maybe you did the brushing either before or after, which would be deep pressure and proprioception. And I know that because you said after a while he was able to walk a straight line.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, he walked a straight line and then he once finally got dizzy and he couldn't even get off of it. It was amazing. It was just like in one day. We did a lot of brushing, a lot of brushing, a lot of deep pressure. Um, and he just he loved all of it. He was really, he was very receptive to all of it.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Which I I often think about if children could talk, if their brains could talk, they would say, I don't mean verbally, but if their brains could talk, they would say, Oh, thank God that deep pressure improprioception is really helping me out. I did not know how to organize this stuff. I got papers everywhere in this brain of mine, and you gave me this deep pressure and proprioception, and now I can put it into categories. And now, it's like anything, if I have an organized uh desk, I can reach in and get what I need and put it to use.

SPEAKER_02

That's a great way. That's a great way to explain it.

SPEAKER_03

And there's just so many little tools, like I told you, we found the mini backpack and put books in it when we go to the mall. And so let's let's do a quiz again to center him. He wants to do a quiz again like crazy. Yeah, ready for your quiz?

SPEAKER_01

Ready for your quiz? It's been a while. Sure.

SPEAKER_02

I have a question. Was the book thing not something to mess with the books? You're saying the physic the weight and the pressure on him? Weight was feeding information to his nervous system that was allowing him to organize all of the inputs in a way.

SPEAKER_01

That was that was infra if you think about a backpack that's heavy, a weighted backpack. You could have a weighted belt, a weighted backpack, a weighted vest, a weighted hat. Uh we've we've sewn uh fish weights into people's uh pockets, weighted. So if if you have something weighted that is putting extra gravity on your joints and muscles, that's proprioception. And if the backpack is nice and tied up against you, that can be deep pressure. So deep pressure and proprioception. So you figure that out on your own. Had you known, oh my god, I need uh 20 more deep pressure and proprioceptive ideas here. What else have I got around the house? You would have come up with a lot of other things around your house.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, he liked the weighted blanket, but he did not like the weighted hat at all. It was awful, though. It was pretty awful though. If you put it on yourself, you'd like it. Yeah. Some people love it, and now they make weighted blankets for you and I. Sean just gave me one for my birthday. That's a weighted blanket, right?

SPEAKER_02

Is it's the pressure on your muscles is helping you organize all of the inputs going through your almost.

SPEAKER_01

So the a weighted blanket is um deep pressure into the tactile system. Right? So that's that's deep pressure in the top tactile system. If you push on the weighted blanket and lift it, that's information into your joints and muscles, the proprioceptive system.

SPEAKER_02

That's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01

Isn't it fascinating?

SPEAKER_02

It's fascinating, but it's kind of giving me a whole series of questions that maybe you guys don't want to spend time on. But uh when we talk about someone that's diagnosed with autism, right? I've never really understood. Are we talking about uh a brain issue? Are we talking about uh an intelligence issue?

unknown

Uh uh.

SPEAKER_02

Or are we really just saying that it's that not just saying, but are we saying that it's uh it's really uh this uh it's the the exact it's this it's the fact that you're receiving all these inputs, they're very difficult to organize. I think Michelle at some point someone told us that Gregory has a hard time prioritizing inputs. He kind of sees he sees it all, hears it all, and that becomes overwhelming. With autism, is that really what we're talking about? Is that is it this this or this nervous system that is becoming overwhelmed because the information streams are not integrated? Or is that that one fat or is that one factor of someone that has autism?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a that's a very important question. So there's a a book called the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, the DSM. We have written it multiple times, not me, but the profession, uh psychology, um, and we're on uh version five. So version five. So over time, the writers of the diagnostic statistical manual have tried to identify and specifically um uh describe what is and what is not autism, what is and what is not bipolar, what is and what is not any of the mental health clusters, ADHD, etc. They're all in there. So it's like the Bible of um diagnoses for mental mental health, and each one has a code, and you need that code in order to get reimbursed. Like that's that's the Bible. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm gonna ask a little clarifying question. Once this, I guess someone does, I I guess uh it's almost I guess a questionnaire, right? Of like trying to fit into one of these these designations of ADHD or autism or things, does that also prescribe their treatment? Or does someone in your role have the ability to kind of drift across the phone?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh well, uh some of the many of the treatments are the same for all of the diagnoses, um, but uh some interventions might be more appropriate for one versus the other. Um so in the diagnostic statistical manual five, um, that was written by a group of people from uh Kennedy Krieger Institute, Center for Autism and Related Disorders in Baltimore. And I know that because I worked there when that happened. I didn't I wasn't part of the people writing it, but I got to be in the room and talk to them and give information and answer questions and and you know basically um enjoy being there, right, and listening to them talk. So what they what they did in the DSM 5 that that was really helpful is they said, okay, autism has three things that happen. And um one of those things is that they have difficulty, they have differences with sensory, with the sensory system. So that became part of the diagnosis. All right, so they had difficulty with social, uh, they had difficulty with um uh sensory. All right, those are the two biggies, and then they also in the DSM 5 did something super helpful, and they said, and one can have autism with or without an intellectual disability. We have another category called intellectual disability. Autism can either have or not have.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I didn't know that. I always associate it with some sort of intellectual disability.

SPEAKER_01

Correct.

SPEAKER_02

That would that that got when someone has Asperger's versus autism. I the layman's perspective, I think, is Asperger's is someone that's extraordinarily high functioning intellectually, but then has sort of a different, you know, a difficulty or a different approach to social interaction.

SPEAKER_01

Is that sort of so I think that's a lay person's understanding? Fun fact the DSM 5 chose to not include Asperger's or nonverbal learning disorder. It's not in there.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, they're like, oh, you know, somebody made this up a long time ago, uh Dr. Asperger's, and we really don't know what it is. We can't distinguish it from anything else, it's not distinctive. So we're gonna just leave it out. And so now we have um autism with or without um intellectual disability. Anyone with autism has uh some uh unusual atypical ways of processing sensation by by definition in the DSM. Um okay, so that's really helpful. And so now we have these people who have some type of autistic tendencies, like maybe just the social or so on. So they have the categories and they have uh autism level one, two, three, four, and five, and those levels are related to how much assistance the individual needs in order to live their life. So autism, level one, two, three, four, five, with or without intellectual disability, and that became specifically important for the research because before that it was very difficult to say we have a group of individuals, we're doing some research, they have autism, we think. We're not sure. Some of the we've excluded anyone with an intellectual disability because that's hard to include in our intervention. So every time we re would read about interventions for people with autism, it had excluded anyone with an intellectual disability. So then you read, okay, here's the best practice for people with autism. It's like, but it doesn't work for my kid. It's like, well, okay, now we can understand that. So they did us, I think, a great service of teasing that out. They it was a it was hard work, um, had some political conversations around that because some people, you know, had ideas about it, but that's what we have to date for the DSM. And I think that's been very helpful for parents. Um, we have a lot of young adults who now understand that they have autism and had autism, that either went undiagnosed or they were given the wrong information about the way they process the world. Um, and they're really helping us understand, like feeding back and feeding forward even more data now that we have this better system of understanding what autism is and isn't.

SPEAKER_02

And how old is that how long has that system been in place?

SPEAKER_01

So the DSM 5 diagnos again, it's a diagnostics, right? It's the category of diagnosing. Um, that came out, it must have been around I'm gonna say 2015-ish. I can I can find that out exactly.

SPEAKER_02

But but we're but we're 10 year plus years into having essentially 10 categories, right? So it's five five levels with or without um a mental disability or an intellectual disability.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, intellectual disability, yeah. And and they tweak it, you know, they have DSM 5R, and you know, they're they're like always looking at it and updating it. And at some point we're gonna have the DSM six. I don't I don't know when that's coming, but we will have it. Um because as we learn more, uh we we can do better. And so I I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03

People are using the levels now, I've noticed. Level one. There's a you know, what level? I I couldn't even answer that question. I don't know how they I don't know, one, two, three, four, five must be very high. Is level one is very low functioning, right? And level five is higher.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we we tr we try hard to say to not say high and low functioning because that indicates some things that we don't mean. So really the level the levels are about how much assistance does the individual need, and that's important in schools. So if you have a child in a you have children in a classroom um who are say level um two, they're going to need different levels of assistance in that classroom in a different classroom setting than a child with a level five.

SPEAKER_02

I see. So that's that's super all.

SPEAKER_03

Are we getting politically correct though? I in a way to me it seems well.

SPEAKER_01

I think um what I would say is um from the feedback that we've gotten from adults with autism, they have asked us to be more inclusive and to talk about them in a way that they feel like they're not broken, but that they're who they are. And and I am super grateful for uh all that the children I've worked with have taught me. I am such a better person.

SPEAKER_02

We talk about this a lot, that that Gregory is a pleasure, it's a pleasure to be around. Yes, they're lovely, and he seems to not seem to have, he has an incredible level of empathy, almost to the to the to a point that it hurts him because he is. So how is that connected to this nervous system that's that's that's you know has this structure that's confusing and and not surrogated? How is that empathy that we see that's so common? Uh how is that connected to this?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I I I haven't seen a lot written about this or researched about it, but I can speak to it from my personal experience. Yeah it's it seems to me that these children, uh and I know we're talking about all ages, but I'm gonna use children because they're um innocent and you can see them better, right? We haven't like put all of our blankets on them, you know, like then you know whatever. Um but the the way back in time the way that autism was distinguished is is the diagnostician said they look angelic, right? They're beautiful, they're beautiful, and if they aren't beautiful, it's probably not autism.

SPEAKER_02

And that's the peace they have in their face. That's those innocent eyes, those big puppy dog eyes.

SPEAKER_01

Uh-huh. Yeah. And they have a little bit more fat in their tissue because they have lower proprioceptive systems, so their muscles aren't taunt, right? Oh, interesting. Yeah. So we they used to say angelic. And I I I'm on for that. Like I way better. So level one through five. And they are, I think, in my experience, they have good radars, but they don't necessarily know what's going on. So they don't necessarily take their understanding of social information and put it into what to do with it. So like they may understand that you're sad, but they may not understand what to do about that. Or they, you know, and then their filters, they don't have the social language, so their filters are off. And again, I love these kids because they say things like, I'm one of my favorite kids. I I got called in to work with a kid one time and they were gonna kick him out of the school. Like the teacher had had it. She was like, you know, lobbying to get this kid kicked out and sent to another school, and she was all about it, man. Everybody's all ahead up. So I go in, I'm like, okay, well, I'll do a classroom observation. I go in, and the problem was this this this boy, fourth grader, kept saying the teacher is ugly and she stinks. She's ugly and she stinks. I hate her. She's ugly and she stinks. I'm like, hmm. So I go in, I'm sitting in the back of the classroom. The you know Mary Kay, the the makeup. This teacher looked like she had put the entire Mary Kay kit on every day. You know what I'm saying? Like she was she was ugly in the sense that she was way too loud. Yeah right now, this boy didn't know how to say she's wearing too much makeup, she's too loud. And I'm sitting in the back of the room, I'm a redhead, I'm sensory sensitive. I'm sitting in the back of the room, and the woman has perfume on this like 40-foot perfume, you know what I'm saying? Wow, so that's what it was. She was stinky and she was ugly. You know, like I think if you washed her up a little bit, maybe, but the kid was dying. He was dying, his sensory system was completely freaking out, and it was using the only words he knew. So I went to the principal and I said, because my job was to report back on what to do with this problem child. I went to the principal and I said, Okay, I'd like to meet with you privately. I think I have some uh information um to to provide to the team. So I meet with the principal and I said, I don't want to go to the team and say he's right, she's ugly and stinks. I don't want to say that. But here's what's happening. And I explained what was happening to the principal, and I said, I think it would just be better for everyone if we moved him to another room, and the other fourth grade teacher is a guy who wears nothing, you know, like he's got flannel on every day, he got boots on. Like, if we just move him, I think it'll all be over. Yeah, that's and that's what they did.

SPEAKER_03

That's my story with Gregory. Remember, Sean, with the their the psychologist or psychiatrist that wanted to give him every med known to mankind because he got the giggles, Rondolyn. He got the giggles really bad. And I what he walked, I walked out with all these prescriptions. I'm like, Gregory, what happened? This guy thinks you're you're luther. He goes, he's so funny looking. He just laughed and the guy was funny looking. He had big suspenders, big strapid shirt. He had he had a lot going on, and Gregory just couldn't process it.

SPEAKER_01

So I think that gets back to Sean's question. It's a perfect example. Perfect example because Gregory was picking up his radar, was working. Yeah, he was taking in information from a social situation, but he couldn't really organize and articulate it in the way that we could understand, and then unfortunately, people jumped to the conclusions from their own way of thinking.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, what they think that means.

SPEAKER_01

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02

It's it's very interesting for hours. Um, how does a find a rondolin? Well, first of all, are you publishing somewhere that that people can follow you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I have uh I always tell Michelle that years ago I really wanted to figure out how to put OT in a box, right? Like, okay, here's a box. Because I had people at the time I had a clinic in California, people come from Canada and all over the country, and that really broke my heart. I I I didn't feel my ego was was not impressed by that. I my mother was my motherhood was sad about that. People should be able to find what they need in their local community. So I have written uh several books on this that are very family friendly, and they're available on Amazon, and I I recommend them. I mean, you know, I I can give them away free sometimes. You know, I've got a big stack of them. I do talks at libraries all the time, and I'm like, here, take them, take them, take them. Um, because I I just want people to have the information. I'm getting ready to do a uh an updated revised vision version of one of the books, but the books on Amazon about sensory are meant to be OT in a box. One of them talks about just what we've just talked about, goes through it all. I co-wrote it with Wendy Pickering, who's a genius out in California, genius, uh, and we break it down very simply so parents can understand it. And then the other book is definitely um OT in a box. It has 52 activities. So an activity for one a week. Every activity has what I call a power-up. Here's how to make it harder, right? And they're meant to be integrated into your day-to-day life. So here's some activities for meal time, uh, here's activities for um uh evening routines, here's activities for morning routines, etc. And they're organized like that. So parents open it up, they do one, send the kids to school. Open it up, do one, send it. So, like, for example, time for bed, often a problem for children. So instead of saying, go brush your teeth, uh, then you the child might do bear walks into the bathroom because they're getting that deep pressure and proprioception into the joints and muscles, which will help them feel more regulated and organized. They can brush their teeth and go to bed.

SPEAKER_03

Nice. Okay, what are the names of both books, real quick, before we have to.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a really good. Let me let me grab them off my shelf here because I never remember. One one of us raising raising kids with sensory processing disorders, and the other one is which I did.

SPEAKER_02

How do you how do you find an OP?

SPEAKER_03

This is such great information, and this the what I really want to tell none of this is gonna hurt your child, it's only gonna make it better. And it's very inexpensive, or right here it's in a book. I went to you know, clinics and learned it different ways, cost me a lot of money.

SPEAKER_02

Insurance cover, if I if if if if my child would benefit from this, can I can I get a prescription for an occupation? Like, how does this work?

SPEAKER_01

How do I get how do I so here's here's the other one self-regulation, a family system approach is the other book.

SPEAKER_02

I probably can't myself. I read it.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, they get they get a diagnosis and they need OT, they get OT. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and and importantly, um because in the DSM they added sensory, it's now covered. It's got a code. And and because uh sensory processing disorder is not a diagnosis in and of itself, it's not been put into the DSM, right? When we're talking about uh third-party reimbursement, your insurance, when you work with an occupational therapist, they can often help you work with your doctor to identify a diagnosis that does qualify for the intervention.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Excellent. It's it's an elaborate shell shell game, but we're happy to help you play it.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, that's so complex. The whole process is so complex.

SPEAKER_03

I'm glad you found us. This was really, really nice. This was so fun.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for letting me talk about this. I can obviously I can go on and on and on and on because I just think it's so good.

SPEAKER_02

There was no way we could we there's so much value here, so we definitely want to have you back. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01

You're welcome. Thank you for the opportunity, and I'm sure it's gonna help more kids, and that's that's the point of life, right? Is to help families and children. That's right. Absolutely. Well done. All right, and Sean, you can take me up on helping you with your handwriting, really. I'm hoping with that.

SPEAKER_02

57 years into not knowing how to write.

SPEAKER_01

So there you go. Well, it's it's it's really okay unless it's in your way of doing the things you want need to do.

SPEAKER_02

If it is in the way not knowing how to type, so I've got I'm I'm I'm progressing.

SPEAKER_01

You're all set then. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

We thank lots of therapists for the broadcast. Lots of therapy for song. All right, have a good one. Bye.

unknown

Bye.