Beyond Expectations: Parenting Autism

The Power of Animals & Connection with LynnLee Schmidt | Beyond Expectations Podcast Ep. 24

• Michelle Chabolla • Episode 24

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In Episode 24 of Beyond Expectations: Parenting Autism, Michelle Chabolla and Sean Dobson welcome LynnLee Schmidt for a conversation about the powerful connection between people and animals.

LynnLee shares how meaningful animal experiences can encourage confidence, connection, learning, and growth for individuals with autism and their families.

Learn more about Tanganyika Wildlife Park: https://www.twpark.com

Learn more about KultureCity: https://www.kulturecity.org

This episode is proudly supported by Gregory's Special Creations. Shop Gregory's handmade gifts at http://www.gregorysgifts.com.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the podcast Beyond Expectations, Parenting Autism. Follow Michelle Shibola's journey of raising a child with autism, the challenges, victories, and rewards. If you're a parent, a caregiver, or simply someone seeking to understand autism on a personal level, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_03

All right, here we are with Beyond Expectations with Michelle Shibola, Sean Dobson, and a very special guest today, Lindley Schmidt.

SPEAKER_01

Hello, hello. Welcome, Lindley. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to the show. So we are so excited to have you here, mainly about, of course, who you are, but what you're doing with animals and want to tell the whole world about what's going on and how this is inclusive to our audience.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Well, I have to first say that like Gregory and I um our family have been friends for a long time. So we've probably known each other longer than we actually remember knowing each other. But um I got to I fell in love with Gregory. And let's be real, Carl, my husband, fell in love with Gregory when we both lived in Colorado at the same time. And um, you guys came to see us when I was working at the downtown aquarium in Denver, and he got to meet a Binterong and a serval, and he got to see the tigers, but but hands down, he got to see the mermaids.

SPEAKER_03

So I have always been each of mermaids.

SPEAKER_01

Um, he might not know I don't have the key anymore.

SPEAKER_03

Oh that's true. That's true. The mermaids was quite the experience, I have to admit.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and then we had you guys come. Now I work at a facility in Wichita, Tanganika Wildlife Park. Um, we're an all-inclusive destination for animal experiences. And Gregory came out. You guys brought the van down, you set up all of his um art, and uh we he's done some special gifts for me, as well as, of course, the sign that's on my front porch that he did not think matched my personality.

SPEAKER_03

And what did that sign say, Lindley?

SPEAKER_01

He said, No, it's not-uh, go away, please. Oh and when Gregory made it, he said to Michelle, Are you sure my Lindley wants this? Are you sure?

SPEAKER_02

That's because he's so sweet.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it is. He didn't know I have the sassy side.

SPEAKER_02

Um I want to I want to back us up because we've hit the audience with a bunch of crazy things. Like you have mermaid friends, and and then there's this Tanganika thing. So so back it up a minute. So so tell us let's start, let's go in reverse order. Tanganika, how do we spell Tanganika?

SPEAKER_01

T-A-T-A-N-G-Y or A-N-Y-I-K-A. Tanganika.

SPEAKER_02

Tanganika. And so tell me about Tanganika again. It's an animal experience park.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so we have about 500 animals across a hundred different species. Um, but we are not your normal zoo, and most people say that after they visit, they don't even put us in that category. We're like a bucket list trip for really memorable experiences. So when you come out to the park, breakfast, lunch, snacks, fountain drinks, domestic beer and wine all included in your um admission to the park. You can tell I've repeated that quite a few times. Um, but more than that is animal experience or animal encounters at about eight different encounter stations where you can actually feed the animals. So you can feed a hippo, feed a rhino, feed a giraffe, feed a lemur. Um, and then we also have some interactive exhibits where you're not feeding, but you're interacting with jellyfish or the doctor fish, uh touching kangaroos. So it's a very hands-on interactive park, um right in the middle of Kansas. So our name is uh east on an old territory in Africa, but we are not in Africa, you don't have to go that far. We're right in the heartland.

SPEAKER_02

Tanganika, T-A-N-G-A-N-Y-I-K-A. In Kansas. And you can you can swim with otters, it says that's fascinating. So Michelle Michelle, when when she told me you were gonna visit us, she told me that you guys have programs that are that that I think what she was explaining is that when your child has autism, taking them to a place like this might be intimidating or it might be you might be nervous about things. So Michelle, what what explain what you're telling me about like the fear a parent might have.

SPEAKER_03

Right. I just think basically taking them in public, a lot of people have a hard time with them if they really stem a lot or they make a lot of really quick movements, they're afraid to take them to zoos and wildlife parks just because it's it's not comfortable for them or the animal. And what I saw and see at Lindley's Park is that there is no barrier and they make it so comfortable. And you actually, these kids are touching these animals, if you can imagine. They're in hands-on with them. It's it's unreal. So she can tell you a little bit more about what they do to make that happen, but it's it's really cool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think you know, all of our keepers and trainers and the people who are facilitating the facilitating those interactions um are really kind and welcoming and open, which is uh important. Um, but they're also really adaptable. That's one of our kind of guest engagement techniques we use is adapt and appeal. So you'll see things from um, you know, if we have someone visit in a wheelchair, they can't get into some of our uh like they can't go into the enclosure with the rabbits or the guinea pigs to feed. So our staff will go in and get a rabbit and bring it out and let them touch and interact. So, um, or you might see, you know, someone on lemur island who maybe is like overwhelmed or stemming a lot if like a lemur comes on their lap and the trainer will, you know, restructure things and say, like, okay, no, stand up and that way, and then we're gonna hold your hand out, and then the lemur can take the food from you. And then they kind of um work with that behavior until the person's comfortable and sitting down and actually having the animal on their lap. And so I think that adapt and appeal nature that happens for us is really what makes it more welcoming. But in addition to that, we're a smaller facility. We're, you know, um like walking all around the San Diego Zoo, for example. It's a beautiful, amazing park with awesome animals, but like exhausting for anyone with kids, but especially any kids with disabilities, that's like makes it even more difficult. Um, and so we're a smaller park, we limit our admissions. So there's never more than 500, 600 people here in any given day. So there's not a lot of lines, there's not a lot of waiting. Um, and yeah, that interactive element um is just so important. And I think is the way that I I have seen a lot of kids with alt autism get frustrated because they want to be able to touch and interact with something, but it's on the other side of the fence and it's too far away, and they can't, you know, like, and that will bring out some of that frustration. But at our park, they don't have to have that frustration, they get to, you know, experience everything up close.

SPEAKER_02

That's cool. Michelle, is there something? Is this too stereotyping? Is there something about in your experience children with autism and animals that that creates?

SPEAKER_03

I tell you, I've seen I have seen amazing things with Gregory. So I we have horses next door on both sides of us. He can come out, and I don't know if they hear him or what, but they come to the fence and they just line up. For me, they're like knocking things out of my hand, and he's just making them you wait your turn, and they just wait their turn. And I had an experience in Colorado, I don't know if I shared it with you or not, Sean, but we were in the river, they were little. Gregory was little, and Michael and Hannah and Alex, and they were all playing the river, and a snake came up on a rock. Well, the other three were gone, they were out of there, they were like, you know, done in the car. Gregory looks over and goes, Mr. Snake, I was here first. That snake turned around and left. And Jay and I are just sitting there with our mouth open, going, What just I don't know, Lindley, if you felt that I think they just had this sixth sense where it they calm either the animal calms them or they calm the animal. And when he played with dolphins, I don't know, Sean, if you remember, but the whole dolphin encounter was amazing. The good the dolphins knew they just knew something was special about these guys because there were tons of them, all different disabilities, and they would come up and just be as calm. And I don't know. What do you think, Lindley? I mean, you know more about them, you work with them every day.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I would say yes. Uh, I follow Temple Grandin a lot. Um, and she has been, you know, a a big advocate for, you know, people with autism, um, but also a big advocate for animals. And part of that was some of the challenges that she faced as a child, being nonverbal initially, um, and having some of those like normal life was not built for her, you know, like, um, or the world didn't feel like it was built for her. Um, she related a lot to animals. So now, like, she has made a name for herself in going into like feedlots and agricultural settings and advocating for the animals. So they've changed how animals go through their dips and how they move through the barn and how dairy animals come in because she can see some of those things that we as people can't see. One one example is why cattle guards work, right? Like they that dark to light um is terrifying. They can't, their eyes can't just uh adjust enough, so it looks like they're about to walk off the end of the world. And so you had these dairy cattle that they were, you know, having to use cattle prods to force into the barns um to get them to go past that light. And she came in and she's like, No, no, no, this is scary. We just need like uh an arbor, you know, with slatted uh top so that it transitions from you know bright light to shadows to the barn. And so I do I I think, and she's not, I mean, she's unique in a in many ways as we all are as as people, but I do think that there's something to that.

SPEAKER_02

I I think that they have the ability to I wonder I wonder if if it's if it's because it's because Gregory we've talked about is he's super empathetic, and to me that means he can feel how you're feeling, right? I mean he's very sensitive, but he's also but he's so sensitive that he's aware of of your mood. And I wonder if that that relates to the animals that he's able to actually understand their you know their nervousness or their or and maybe that's how they're sort of communicating, is it is that they're able to like you said, they're able to comfort each other, but yeah, he's super perceptive of other people's sort of emotional uh response. So maybe that's so that sounds like an amazing thing for to get these kids in the in a place where they can go and do what other kids do, which is go to the zoo, but in your case, be uh more like on safari than at the zoo.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

So and so what's it like, Michelle? Like if you're if you're out there and you have a child and you you've not been going to the zoo the way other parents have been taking their kids to the zoo, like do zoos have a do they make some special accommodations in general, or is the process a minefield for a parent?

SPEAKER_03

Well, it's a minefield for us. Well, it was a minefield for us, but I think um Lindley just told me the name of it's what Culture City is what she said as well. And they actually have packets, sensory packets for you before you go into the zoo. And I know one thing is headphones. Lindley, do you know what else is in the pack? I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01

I think there's usually a fidget, headphones. Um, sometimes there's like a communication card, you know, with with images of things that you might need. Um, I'm not sure what all else is in the pack.

SPEAKER_03

Probably a map for the zoo to help it all out.

SPEAKER_01

And where the they'll have like quiet places too. So they'll have designated places within the zoo that are quieter and calmer, so you can make your way there if you need to find a more private place. So they've done a great job at partnering. I'm sure not just with zoos, I'm sure museums and other attractions um as an organization to really provide.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I just I hadn't heard of this. It's called Culture City with the K. K-U-L-T-U-R-E Culture City. And they partner with different locations to adjust the experience for the child with sensory, you know, with that's extra sensitive. That's pretty cool. And so if you're and so I I guess you can contact your zoo and see if they're a partner with culture city.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I think culture city probably has a list of their partners too.

SPEAKER_02

That's so cool. Yeah, just look at culture city culturecity.org online. That's pretty cool. Oh my goodness, they have a map, and it seems like there's one everywhere. What a cool idea that is. That's fascinating. So, in the in the case of your world though, is this dangerous? Uh like not had anybody get eaten, have you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. So I I would say, yeah, you know, just the ones who can't follow the rules. Okay. I'll say we don't talk about that. No. Um I mean, yes, anytime you're interacting with an animal, wild or otherwise, there are inherent risks in that, right? And we're not eliminating all risks. Um, but we do our best to mitigate those risks. And, you know, we we haven't ever had any major incidents. You know, we we might get someone grazed by a tortoise when they're feeding them. Um, but uh, you know, we the way we facilitate it, the safety in mind, how we make those accommodations for, you know, anybody really like you you can have someone who's not okay having a lemur on their lap. That is a weird experience. They don't trust that animal, you know, like, and we kind of will just adapt and go with the flow in each one of those situations and try to find an experience that is impactful for the person and safe for the animal and uh and safe for the guests too.

SPEAKER_02

That is amazing.

SPEAKER_03

When it comes to double the sloth and uh and to walk into where the kangaroos are just laying on the ground right in front of you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and you get to walk over and touch them, and yeah, it's you know, we the one of the stories that I talk about is um, you know, they were doing these our founders were doing these experiences in their backyard. They had no intention of being open to the public. And when they finally opened to the public, there was definitely a period of time, as you do any new business, where you're like, is this actually going to work? If anybody was an overnight success, please let me know. Um, I would love your secrets. But um, in the beginning, you know, they were like, is this gonna work? Our director, our owner, he's out on the island with the lemurs, like he has to work Lemur Island, that's where they're at. And he gets an email after this day. Um, and this person says, Hey, you know, you probably don't remember me. I came out to the park yesterday, and it was gonna be the last thing that I did before I committed suicide. But my experience on Lemur Island with those animals and with you showed me that there are good things in this world and there's things worth living for, and you save my life. And that was kind of, you know, he was like, Well, we're gonna freaking make it work, right? So that was the point where it was like he really saw the impact that he could have. We did a lot of partnerships in them in the beginning with a uh company here called Rainbows United that provides supplemental um services to uh kids with disabilities of all sorts, um, and seeing uh vision-impaired kids come out and get to touch an animal for the first time when usually when they go to a zoo, all they might get to feel is like a bronze replica or a statue, um, you know, was just super impactful for everyone here. And that was kind of when we decided we were gonna lean into that, um, both from an interactive standpoint, but for everybody, you know, but especially making sure that we continued to think about how we could be accommodating for anybody who might need a different experience.

SPEAKER_03

That's so fun. So so fun. And just so important for these kids to interact with animals, period.

SPEAKER_02

And to make it I I would say these days, like just from my own experiences, with my my kids are 21 and uh 22 now, um but they're they're a lot of their friends are you know raised in these mega cities, and it just feels like that they haven't had the opportunity to spend a lot of time outside, you know, with you know out in what I would say in nature, right? Outside, not in nature, not and not comfortable with animals around, not comfortable with insects and things like that. I see it a lot. Um, and so a place like this where people can go and kind of confront all that and and and experience and the animals. I guess the the real story is the animals get to be ambassadors for for the wildlife itself, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's something so powerful we say about like kind of connecting with something that's bigger than yourself, right? I I'm sure we all deal with trivial problems on a daily basis, you know, like um that we think the world is coming to an end over uh whatever, you know, plumbing back up in your house or your, you know, your iPhone died, or whatever what I like to call first world problem we might be dealing with in any given time. But there's something about standing face to face with like a 14-foot giraffe who like bends down and takes this piece of food from you and has a has a moment, acknowledges your existence, you see its existence, and you're reminded that the world's just so much bigger than what your problems are. Um, I think is so important for you know for people to experience that, and especially people who, you know, haven't had their feet in grass in a while.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. It's true. It's you can spend a you can spend a whole childhood and not really touch grass, right?

unknown

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And the bigger cities have just gotten bigger and and life has become more online and more, and I guess there's benefits to it, but for me, it's it's always been important to have the kids out and out of nature and experiencing it and seeing wildlife firsthand. So I can't wait to get them up, get them up to your place. So so you so you how long you you've known Gregory since forever, I guess, since you're both babies.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I mean, um, yeah, our family our friends have been family since my mom and Michelle's sister were in college together.

SPEAKER_03

So um yeah, yeah, yeah. Lily Lindley's a little bit older than Gregory, not much.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Just a just a tad.

SPEAKER_02

That's amazing. That's amazing. Well, and he's he's what's fun about this, about putting this podcast together that Michelle's done is is like he's made such a big impression on so many people. Like he's motivated people to go into special ed or to or to um you know help in some way or go work with kids with autism. So it's it's so it's it's lovely, it's it's fantastic to see that you've integrated uh thinking about these special kids into your into your business.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, and in life, you know, it's it's interesting because um I love my husband, but I would not call him the most empathetic person on the planet, right? Um, and he freaking loves Gregory, and they have only met a couple of times, like they haven't actually spent a ton of time together, but he will, you know, he'll he'll ask questions, he wants to know how he's doing, he wants to know what the latest thing he built was. And I would argue that you know, my husband didn't have a lot of exposure. Uh, he went to school in a time where there wasn't integration into the classroom and those kids were, you know, kept at home and you didn't get to know them. Um, and so like his his you know empathy for Gregory and for Michelle and for you know like what that would be like is just really cool to watch. Um, yeah, it's been a huge impact on a on a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02

It's kind of funny because we learned we learned recently that that I guess before autism was uh diagnosed and categorical, and it's gonna and it's continually being you know chopped up into different labels and things, which is what we what Michelle's been trying to educate people about, is that we learned recently that that uh children with autism were called the angelic children because their faces are so sweet, right?

SPEAKER_00

Oh okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And uh and Gregory never has it didn't hesitate. I talk about this all the time. That he point he points out how I was pointing out how the kids in high school helped him, and he pointed out how how he helped them.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I watched that. I love that so much because that's so true.

SPEAKER_02

These kids with autism, like I think it's we talk about it as a disability, we try to get all this like super comfortable language around it, right? Is it a handicap, disability, whatever? But I think that's that maybe the overall point that we've been trying to make indirectly is the amount of benefit that people get by interacting. With people with all like the benefit that they bring in terms of slowing you down, having you appreciate the moment a little bit more, being a little bit more empathetic for someone because you know that your reactions may create discomfort for them. And it's fascinating that we don't operate like that all the time, right? That we're that we're not like I'm I'm guilty of that, where I don't think enough about what I'm about to say or do, how that's gonna impact someone else's emotions, like how they're gonna feel about that, how it's gonna make them feel, not just communicate with them, but how it's actually gonna make them feel. But with these kids, you sort of you learn quickly, like, oh, hold on. Like, I need to think about what I'm gonna say, and think about what I'm gonna do. And of course, you're supposed to do that all the time, not just with people with autism, but at least they start to they give you some of the training, some of the behavioral training that you that you're supposed to have. So I think that the benefit is definitely amazing to spend time with G and uh the other people with autism. That's cool.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and I think that's the same, you know, that's what we say about animals too, right? You know, coming to the park and and having these interactions with animals teaches you how to be a better person, a better, a better human. Um Michelle and I were talking. I I have written, I finished a book, it's not published yet, so you can't get it anywhere. This isn't a sales pitch yet, but come back. Um, but it's a historical fiction about the Okapi, which is a giraffe relative, very cool animal, looks like a horse with a zebra butt, but not related to zebras or horses at all. Actually, a giraffe um wasn't discovered until like the early 1900s. And I started writing this book just. Are they still around?

SPEAKER_02

Are they extinct to the floor?

SPEAKER_01

No, they're still around. Yeah, not very many, but they are around. Um, I started writing this book because I heard this story about how in the middle of the Civil War in the Congo, these Belgian mercenaries flew in under fire and rescued all of these animals that were at this sanctuary for Okapi. And I had this A-team vision, you know, like bandoliers and like, you know, machine guns flying in. Um, and I wanted to, like, I thought that would be such a cool story to tell. But when I started doing the research for the book, A, the story is not real. Sorry. Um, and but what I really found was just the impact that these that having a relationship with an animal had on people, like having a relationship with an animal really helped people be more human. It helps them, you know, deal with grief and trauma. And I I do think that's one of those connections between people with autism and animals, is they just they they have a shared language that the rest of us don't have. Um, but I also think there's some parallels there in having a relationship with, let's be real, anyone who's different than you, um, that thinks differently, that believes differently than you. And so, yes, while while your podcast is specific to, you know, people with autism, I think it's so important to remember that really that they're just people who are different than you and live live life different, and that can apply to a lot of different different things. But um, you know, those relationships make us better.

SPEAKER_02

That's yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think that that those trips to the zoo are so valuable, and it and I just hate to think that some kids and some parents are nervous about that, right? Yeah, about the you know, because it's such a we talked about children's sports in one of the episodes, and me being the kind of oblivious dummy, I'm like, oh, if your child has autism, maybe it's not so common that they get to play little league baseball or or basketball like the rest of the kids. And of course they don't, but but delivered people that went and created that experience for them so that they could have what you know, kind of the thing that maybe of course that I was kind of taking for granted. Um, and these trips to the zoo, these small things can be such a big thing when childhood's autism. At least what I'm learning as as we go. Um, and then and then to go that extra step to take them to actually a place where they're gonna go and interact and run around. I keep thinking about that baby that fell in the gorilla cage, and then you know, and then no, but it's pretty cool that you guys have thought about this and are as prepared as you can be.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I think, you know, if anybody's listening wants to come to Tanganyika and is like, what what kind of experience would it be? Um, like reach out to us. I think that's the other important thing. And I would say that about any facility you go to is like reach out and ask questions. What accommodations are there? What will the experience be like? Are there videos we can watch beforehand? Are there um, you know, do you have kind of like a walkthrough of what the experience will be like so that we can prepare, you know, the kiddo for it before they come in. Um, and also like the parents, really, like, because I I think, you know, when us as parents are escalated and nervous about things like again, like you said, Gregory's uber sensitive and empathetic to that. Michelle's not gonna be able to get any of that over on him. He is gonna know, you know. Um and so prepare yourself as well as prepare them for what to expect, too. Right.

SPEAKER_02

And it's basically and basically, Michelle, would you say that that your experience has been if they if you go to your city zoo that they thought about this and these kids are welcome and they're they got a plan for you?

SPEAKER_03

They totally do. Now they have break spots for breaks. We never had that, a place to go, and maybe in the AC when it's really, really hot, because most of our trips would be we became members because we might get to do one hour one day, two hours another time. You never got to do the whole zoo at one time. That was never an option because there was never a place to if there was a meltdown, where do I take him or where where can I, you know, regrouping? Um, and now they've come a long way with that, and they have places where you can, you know, break rooms. And obviously, the thing I love about her park is it's not just wall-to-wall people, and that's really important for Gregory and a lot of kids that have that sensory of standing in line and waiting, and it's it's overload enough to go, and then you got to stand in line. Your day gets cut in half. I don't care who you are. You're you're you're done. You know, it's it's not worth it. It's why why are we doing this? You look at yourself and you're like, why why am I here? And you leave, you know. And so this is huge. This is huge that she's doing it, and um, and we were there, and it's it's so comfortable. It's just so it's very, very worth the trip. It's very, very cool.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. Thanks for the endorsement.

SPEAKER_02

That is so cool. Is there an organization? So so are you classified as a private zoo?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so we're privately owned. Um, which is like the Tiger King.

SPEAKER_02

Is that like the Tiger King Zoo?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, is there an association of private zoos that are that people share information like this? They share kind of programs and and how to be more accessible.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we, I mean, Culture City has been really big um for the zoo community in general. Um, but there's like many zoos are city and county um operated and paid for, so they're paid for by your taxes. And then there's a small amount of zoos that are private and um and don't get that you know extra funding from the city or the county or the local government. Um, some of them are not for profit, some of them are for-profit, run a whole gamut. Um, but there's a whole bunch of different networking organizations. We have the the ZAA networking organization that accredits zoos, we have AZA that accredits zoos, um, and then we have a lot of uh probably the educators are the biggest advocates within the zoo for kids with disabilities. Um and so there's conferences for all of these different organizations and subsects. And so that's where a lot of this information is shared. Like, oh, we have this, oh, we got this, oh, you might suggest this. But honestly, I found that moms of kids with disabilities are some of my best resources. So um there's a a blog I shared with Michelle. Um her blog is called Elijah's Baby Bucket List. Um, and they came and they've they've been a few times now. And she wrote a great blog about how inclusive we are, which was awesome to read. But then I'm like, hey, do you know where like you she was going to an accessibility conference? And I was like, Will you keep an eye out for like automatic door openers? I want like I can't afford the normal ones that you would see in like a larger institution. But is there an alternative that's more affordable? And then can you also keep an eye out for portable wheelchair pool assist? Um, because like we don't have to get in and out of our otter and penguin swim pool, we don't have a lift. Um, and we don't have a way to put a lift in the room that we have that in. But is there one that we could bring in if we needed it, you know, and have it on hand? And she sends me an email full of like resources and ideas and information. Um, and so, like, yes, there's all sorts of really great resources out there, but I still go to the moms. Let's be real. They know they know what we need.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, fantastic. This has been this has been great. I can't wait. I mean, it's really amazing. It's and it's another thing, Michelle, that I think maybe we should you should make a list. It's like sports, zoos, these things that that honestly, I feel terrible that I'm just like, oh well, they're the they're the parts of your childhood that you just remember because everybody got to do it, but everybody doesn't get to do it, right?

SPEAKER_03

That's right, that's right. Only certain places make it possible for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, super cool. Well, Lindley, thank you so much for joining us. You were great.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, thanks for having me. It was great to talk to you. Give Gregory a big old high five for me.

SPEAKER_03

I will, and we'll be back to talk about your book soon.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, yeah. I will I'll be back on to be continued.

SPEAKER_03

Maybe when we visit again, we'll take more video.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes. Come whenever you want. I say you have to meet here, so family trip. We can put you up in the Airbnb. It's good, the big house. We've got 12 beds, so I think we can sleep, y'all. Leon, like take care of everybody, cool.

SPEAKER_03

Yep, it's the mom. All right, thanks. Thanks for your time, Liliana. You're crazy busy.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much.