WEBVTT 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:13.519 I'm finding that the more, the more I am just my authentic self, like the less I do, the more impact and deeper relationships and better learning outcomes for students. 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:30.000 Welcome to Teaching While Queer, the podcast that gives LGBTQ plus educators a place to feel seen, supported, and a little less alone, so you can show up fully and teach as your authentic self. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:31.839 Let's get into it. 00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:37.520 Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Teaching While Queer. 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:39.039 I am your host, Bryan Stanton. 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:40.320 My pronouns are they, them. 00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:44.000 Today I am joined by our February educator of the month, 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:44.399 Dr. 00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:50.719 Clark Alsaloos, and we're gonna be talking a little bit about the intersection of education and mental health. 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:53.520 Um, hi Clark, how are you doing today? 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:55.280 I'm doing really well. 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:56.719 Thank you so much for having me. 00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:58.159 Yeah, it's my pleasure. 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:00.240 I'm so excited to be able to sit down with you. 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:06.480 You're actually gonna be our first um educator of the month that gets the podcast episode because of scheduling. 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:20.560 So I'm excited to be able to sit and also share this experience with folks that you can nominate an educator out there who you think is doing phenomenal work um in their spaces to be a Teaching While Queer educator of the month. 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:28.400 And your space is really important, especially I think right now, because there is a huge focus in education on mental health. 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:40.000 We see it from pre-K all the way into higher education, um, especially with social emotional learning lessons that educators are expected to do and not just do, but do well. 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:43.519 Um, so I'm excited to kind of sit down and chat with you. 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:48.400 Can you take a second to uh further introduce yourself to those who are listening? 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:49.920 Yeah, of course. 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:50.879 Thank you. 00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:55.040 Um so I am Clark Osloos, I use he, him pronouns. 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:58.239 Um, I identify as a gay cis man. 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:10.879 I am in the northwest Ohio area, um, and I serve as an assistant professor um at Oakland University in Michigan. 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:21.919 So I interestingly kind of navigate these two landscapes as well, um, where I also am a licensed counselor. 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:27.840 So I'm a licensed counselor in the state of Ohio and Michigan, as well as a licensed school counselor. 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:38.800 Um, and so navigating this, these kind of this tension between, you know, state legislature and what it looks like in practice has been very interesting. 00:02:38.800 --> 00:03:08.639 And then being an educator of future mental health and school counselors is increasingly important and also just fraught with its own unique challenges that that we see within the mental health and counseling space, i.e., you know, thinking about um just you know, in general sense, providing affirming mental health care to queer and trans folks. 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:28.960 Um, so I'm really excited to be here and I think I can hopefully offer maybe a unique lens um in a higher edge, higher education kind of space, um, as well as that, like you said, that intersection of of mental health and the needs that we have now for clinicians. 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:39.360 And particularly, I'm sure we'll get into this, but you know, queer clinicians, queer counselors, and um is another unique need as well. 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:50.000 Yeah, that's a perfect segue into my first question, which is as a queer person, how do you see your queerness showing up in the work that you do on a daily basis? 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:56.000 Well, I feel really fortunate in the sense that I'm very privileged. 00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:19.519 So I and I do own you know some of the privileges that I have in these spaces and higher ed, particularly related to um my whiteness, related to um being a cis man, um and uh you know, kind of navigating that landscape, I think has been something that I continue to learn and unpack. 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:41.439 And um, but ultimately I feel fortunate in the sense that I have worked in many spaces in higher ed um in my in my short tenure that have been mostly you know affirming and um uh accepting of or validating of identity. 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:53.519 Um I have the again the good fortune of being able to teach specific uh courses and topics in those courses that relate to queer and trans issues and populations. 00:04:53.519 --> 00:05:24.240 Um, and so uh, you know, not only am I kind of living in the world of teaching about queer things related to mental health and clinicians and clients, um, but showing up in a space where I am queer myself and integrating that into all the classes that I'm a part of, um not just the gender or sexuality related content or courses. 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:42.399 Um you know, I think I'm in this journey where I'm finding that the more, the more I am just my authentic self, like the less I do, the more impact and deeper relationships and better learning outcomes for students. 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:46.639 So it's just this kind of interesting growth and development for me. 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:58.000 Um, like I, you know, there's this pressure I used to have of how can I be the best educator I can be in this space, and also, you know, highlight and being proud of my queerness and showing that. 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:10.399 And I think I was getting that confused in a way where just showing up as myself, my dirty, messy, queer self, um is is often part of that. 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:16.720 And so I try I try to intentionally remember that and bring that into these spaces um that I work in. 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:26.240 And I think sometimes what I think is maybe you know, a small gesture or something that seems like, is this really making that big of a difference? 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:31.279 Um I have to unpack that and and realize that it it can. 00:06:31.279 --> 00:07:13.519 So for example, if I'm, you know, if if we're working on something in class, um and uh, you know, I we have a conversation about, for example, what we're doing this weekend or um what we're looking forward to in class, something just outside the content area, and talking about, you know, what I'm gonna be doing with my husband and and um what we're doing this weekend, or we're celebrating a milestone, or whatever it might be, kind of this casual interjection of my own, just my own authentic life again, um, can I think really model for a lot of fearful um students that come into the space that are wanting to be counselors. 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.839 Can I be myself in as a counselor as well? 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:37.600 Um and so I I found that students have come up to me and said things like, um, and not directly, but you know, talking about something, and then we'll say, Yeah, my girlfriend has that, you know, like maybe a uh a student I was working with, they'll be like, Oh, my girlfriend has that same whatever it is, water bottle. 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:44.240 Um, and little comments which let me know signal, you know, hey, I'm queer too, or I'm part of the queer community. 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:51.519 Um those little moments have been really beautiful for me in in the higher education space. 00:07:51.519 --> 00:08:00.639 Um, and so, you know, I think it shows up in in in different ways. 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:19.439 In one, this lit this kind of pragmatic way of like teaching content about queer issues, um, a lot of times talking about advocacy for and with queer and trans populations with students, um doing a lot of presentations and scholarship in that in that regard. 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:28.000 Um, and this other piece of of me, myself personally being a queer person, doing this work, um, and what that looks like. 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:34.240 And I think also, you know, just thinking about showing up in a way that's authentic can be just sometimes I'm tired. 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:38.559 And so this is hard work, particularly in like the mental health space, right? 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:43.600 And it feels like yeah, it it it feels like a lot sometimes. 00:08:43.600 --> 00:09:06.480 And so I think even sharing that with students and future future counselors, um, today's a hard day, and um I'm glad to be in community with you today, and but it's hard, and I think some of those kind of you know authentic reflections are also have been really important to me and my students. 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:16.399 Um so it's it's a space of growing for me, I think, as I as I enter, you know, my like my sixth year of um of teaching in higher ed. 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:22.639 There's so many questions that kind of popped in my head as I was talking that I want to dive into. 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:33.039 Um and the one kind of circles around like building belonging in your classroom space, but also like managing boundaries. 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:45.840 And I'm curious to learn how you handle you know belonging versus boundaries, because ultimately we want to make spaces where our students belong, but we also need to have you know professional boundaries. 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:59.200 And I think that there's a regardless of what um what grade you're teaching, I think that they're right now, especially as a queer educator, is like how how much is too much? 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:01.919 And and some people are saying anything, right? 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:06.639 Anything is too much, and some people are like out and proud. 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:10.080 Um, where I'm wearing a rainbow right now for those who are not watching. 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:15.440 Uh, I'm wearing rainbow clothes, you know, like really um obvious about it. 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:17.600 And for other people, that might be too much. 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:30.080 And I wonder like what insights you have on like really creating this wonderful space of belonging that feels safe not just for the students, but also for the educator. 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:33.679 Yeah, I really appreciate that question. 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:34.720 Thank you. 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:40.960 Um, I think you know, as you're as you're asking that, I'm thinking about this piece of safety. 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:59.120 And, you know, I have to really navigate how, you know, so everybody, you know, everybody's in these different spaces, and we have to navigate the amount of of safety that is present, and you know, what can like what am I risking in a sense if I share this or connect in this way? 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:05.440 Um, can I what is you know, like logistically, what does that look like with my job and job security? 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.279 And what is the political climate, right? 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.799 And so, like, you're right, it's all these things that come into play. 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:18.559 Um, but for me, that piece of safety, and so that piece of safety, you know, comes up. 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:26.720 Um and you know, so for me, I think I think it's different, you know. 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:48.240 When I worked in kind of a public school setting, more in a school counseling realm, um, I was still in an education, still receiving some training and education, I felt like um during those times I might have not shared as much about my identity because I maybe felt in ways I didn't have as much academic freedom in whatever that means. 00:11:48.240 --> 00:12:01.600 And so in this higher ed space, I feel like there's there's more, there's more academic freedom in the sense of, you know, if I'm gonna share this about myself and relate it to content and it's a part of learning and students opening up, I felt more comfortable in that sense. 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:10.000 And also I feel fortunate that I don't, that I'm in a space now where we are very much supported in whatever we want to talk about in our classes. 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:14.559 And so that is really highlighted and protected in our university, particularly, specifically. 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:27.440 That's not always found in other spaces that have been, you know, attacked and asked to remove lots of specific language from courses and things like that. 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:35.440 And so it goes back to that safety piece and what people can and and do talk about in those spaces based on law. 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.759 So again, it goes back to in that's my space. 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.759 Unfortunate that at this time I don't have some of those barriers other folks have. 00:12:41.759 --> 00:13:01.039 So for me, I think I'm so relationally bound built and framed that um for me in my personhood too, I just I need to connect with people uh as people, which which includes me self-disclosing. 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:10.320 And so in counseling, we talk a lot about self-disclosure as a clinical tool in certain spaces and when it's appropriate to disclose and what you are sharing. 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:24.240 Um and so that kind of weaves into the classroom, but I'm pretty much open in what I share, um, in that you know, I really want to connect with students first as humans. 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.879 Um, and that involves me being authentically me. 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:36.799 And so that again, that I know realize that's not that's not everyone's um, you know, not everyone has that privilege or has that ability in this in this current current landscape. 00:13:36.799 --> 00:14:00.639 So I think uh when I've modeled that for students, of you know, you're you're welcome to talk about things that you're comfortable with about your identities or about your relationships or not, um, whatever, you know, I think I've seen that growth with students of their own comfort and sharing, but then also then that is building the community within within the classroom. 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:05.600 And so I think again, it's like this thing of where I'm like doing less, but that's doing more. 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:23.919 And so it's like this piece of you know, kind of makes me think of like um bell hooks and kind of the the the beauty of like uh the classroom and infusing love and laughter and joy and um and and and real issues into the classroom. 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:45.840 But so um that being said, I just think that um you know I think that for me I'm very comfortable in building relationships and disclosing and sharing information, and that because often boundaries are built into a lot of the discussion related to clinical counseling ethics and things like that, like right. 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.480 So that's fair, that's really highly held within our profession. 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:58.240 We're kind of in a near unique place where I think boundaries are actually talked about a lot um within our within our classes and within our profession. 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:13.840 Um and students that are generally in our courses and counseling have some um need to or want to help others in this helping profession. 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:25.279 Um, and so I think again, I'm positioned in a space where I'm very fortunate at times to be able to use my queerness, be queer, bring what I want into the classroom, be able to be authentic. 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:34.159 Um, and that not all but many students are receptive to that because and want to learn and want to help. 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:46.720 So have, you know, and so they're able to see what's going on for them, what thoughts are coming up, analyze their own biases and um and things that come up in process through them. 00:15:46.720 --> 00:16:22.399 So we talk a lot about it in our counseling courses, but I think um, yeah, I think it's an interesting space to be in, uh, particularly, you know, now, especially in, you know, this makes me think about certain states that have laws where um they're now requiring school counselors, for example, among others, to uh share with parents any detail related to identity, right, sexual, affectional, or gender identity, or any changes in identity, um, and that there can be like a loss of your license or you can lose your job. 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:25.519 Um, if that if that happens. 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:38.960 And so it's you know, we're balancing in some states, we're allowed to be more open and you know, um self-disclose, but then you're in these frameworks in some states where self-disclosure itself in settings is like let's not do it. 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:46.480 So that just that culture and that tension is really challenging to to sit with with students. 00:16:48.399 --> 00:17:02.000 Yeah, I mean that it brings up the question of ethics to me because uh in counseling there's and in education, we have ethical codes that we're we're meant to abide by. 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:12.160 And so sometimes in some states, those ethical codes uh differ from my human ethics. 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:14.880 And then you're put in between a rock and a hard place. 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.079 I think about Texas. 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:36.319 I was teaching in Texas for five years um and moved out of the state, but just last week they um created a position in their education uh administration that is specifically seeking out and targeting identifying, targeting, and like removing is the goal. 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:39.119 Flawed, quote unquote, educators. 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:43.519 And flawed is basically the definition they use. 00:17:43.519 --> 00:18:27.359 And I look at some of my friends in their postings about how for some of them who maybe have a little bit more privilege than others, um, maybe based off appearances or maybe based off of um actual monetary privilege or whatnot, this is the first time that they're experiencing something where they are genuinely unsure about their position within our industry, but within, you know, within academia, because there's literally someone whose job is to hunt down people who basically differ from the opinions of the state legislatures. 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:32.160 And that is such a it's such a rocky place. 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:38.799 Like we are living in such a rocky landscape right now that not at all is taking an emotional toll. 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:41.839 And I hear what you say about higher education. 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:48.559 I've worked in higher education, I've worked in middle school, I've worked in high school, and higher education does lift some of that weight. 00:18:48.559 --> 00:19:01.599 But we're seeing in other places where you know there was a trans professor who was specifically targeted by a student who failed their assignments and then got the educator fired. 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:09.039 And that's in a higher education space where everybody who goes into that space is making a choice. 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.200 All the students are choosing their classes. 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:16.079 This person chose to go specifically to a space where they can antagonize somebody. 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:27.920 And I just find it so interesting, heartbreaking, um I don't know, bewildering as well that this is the climate that we're living in. 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:30.160 Yeah. 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:49.039 It's yeah, and I think, you know, the the inducing of fear and constant barrage of these of these types of things, you know, this is like kind of new news to me hearing about this, like the bill that was passed, and also not surprised, and so then I'm numb to it. 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:50.559 I'm like kind of numb already. 00:19:50.559 --> 00:20:00.880 And so, you know, um it makes me think intentionally how I have to continue to reframe my practice of or like and and purpose and kind of refresh that. 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:02.160 And what am I doing? 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:03.519 And it's tiring, yeah. 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.119 And like two things can be true. 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:40.640 I can be tired and continue to do work in these spaces and do the good work, um, which sometimes just means uh us showing up in these spaces again and again, and but also recognizing what you just said, you know, thinking about um, you know, gender diverse, gender expansive folks who you know are experiencing discrimination, loss of job, you know, violence um at much higher rates than you know other com folks in communities within LGBTQQ communities. 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:43.279 So I think I'm very fortunate in that in that sense as well. 00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:44.240 But you're right. 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:53.279 Um, while it might seem safer in some ways, it's like it there's nowhere that's safe in it in a you know, in a really broad way. 00:20:53.279 --> 00:21:15.039 Um and you know, the piece too about thinking thinking about things that are coming into play now in in folks' jobs that really that conflict with their professional ethical foundational codes that like you know align your your job and met most of our val, you know, our values can often align with these ethics. 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.640 And then, but even if they don't, what are your own personal values? 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:31.599 Um and so students might you know will say things like will ask me, you know, what should I do in this situation where I have to out a student to the so do what do I do? 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:37.279 Do I out a student to their parent or do I not and risk losing my job? 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:42.079 And the question is very challenging because it's all it's up to it's on them, right? 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:56.720 So like I can put myself in the situation for them for myself and think what I might do based on my own identities and privileges I hold, but also like maybe and maybe positions of power that I might hold. 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:04.960 But for some of these people, or they're entering the workforce and Coming counselors, they're newer, maybe they're people intersecting, you know, identities. 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:17.200 Um, and and for them to have to make those kinds of decisions on like, do I keep my job or do I hold true to my values is a very complicated question. 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:25.839 You know, it's not just a simple, well, of course you hold true to your values because that's that's a more ethical and moral imperative. 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.240 And not everybody has that like ability to do that. 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:34.960 It's just so yeah, thank you for for highlighting that part. 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:42.400 I think that uh this the process you just walked through was pretty valuable though for people who are listening. 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:55.599 And I think that um one, I want to recognize that there are some people who are literally like, you say no and you hold your personal values, and it doesn't matter what the risk is. 00:22:55.599 --> 00:23:00.079 And I think that that is speaking from a place of privilege. 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:10.640 And so the first thing that you said, and this is where I think that people can get help answering the question, is what privileges do I have and how are they gonna help or harm me? 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:12.079 Right? 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:13.839 What privileges do I have? 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:16.319 Do I feel safe to be able to do this? 00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:17.920 Am I gonna lose my job? 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:23.920 Does it seem like my administration approves of this bill or doesn't approve of this bill? 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:29.759 And does that give me some leeway because they're also in an ethical conundrum? 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:42.000 You know, there's some assessment that needs to happen because for uh you or I who like I am non-binary, but if you look at me, most people just look at me and see white male. 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:58.160 Um, we have a different level of privilege than people of color, than um non-binary folks who are more fluid with their expression, where um you are um more apparent. 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:02.480 And so that level of privilege changes your response. 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:05.599 Me personally, I'm like, I'll get fired. 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:08.319 And you know, I'll tell my husband we'll figure it out. 00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:12.480 And and if I was in Texas, I've I've said this to several people. 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:18.079 I was like, I've been fired like three or four times in the last two years if I were still in Texas. 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:28.079 Um and and I am in a place where I feel like I can do that, but it's not a place that everybody is in. 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:35.359 And one thing I would love to get across to folks is that we have to build more bridges instead of walls. 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:46.799 Um, and part of that comes with how we demonize people for not taking the stand that we would take, but we have our set of privileges and priorities. 00:24:46.799 --> 00:25:03.200 And sometimes people need their job because they have people they're taking care of, or they have to put a roof over their head, and there are so many other circumstances that it's easy for some people to be like, oh, this is a two-income household. 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:05.519 I can figure it out later. 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:18.720 Maybe the person that you're dealing with is a single parent, maybe the person is a caretaker to somebody else, maybe the person just has got themselves and their cat to take care of, and it's not for any of us to like demonize. 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:41.279 And um I was recently at the National LGBTQ cat task force's creating change conference, and that was kind of a running theme of the conference was how have we built walls instead of bridges, and how is that impacting our ability to connect with people with differing uh political views? 00:25:41.279 --> 00:26:06.079 And in saying that, even they're very clear at the conference, and and I want to be clear for everybody, I'm not saying that we need to have conversations with transphobes and homophobes and you know try to bring some common ground to the the the table, but I am saying that if someone slips up on something or if someone says something that is slightly off, it's not an immediate cancel. 00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:08.400 There could be a conversation there. 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:19.039 And I think that it starts with assessing our own privileges, and I think the way that you walk through that process just a moment ago is super helpful. 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:21.680 Thanks, Brian. 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:50.240 I think that you know, like the privilege piece, I think we hear it a lot, and and maybe people or maybe people don't hear it a lot, but I think in spaces I've I'm I'm often in, I can it's something that that comes up, and it can be like tangential, and we can go, yeah, I understand my privileges are, but we have to almost you know relearn and review these in all the different spaces that we occupy all the time, and so and it's not always comfortable. 00:26:50.240 --> 00:27:12.880 And I think that's really something that we just have to sit with whatever wherever we are with that and our comfort of like what what are my privileges and uh and um and other identities of intersection that might you know might be marginalized in a sense, but just bringing those into play, we have to know about them in counseling. 00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:28.400 We talk, you know, part of our kind of multicultural counseling uh competencies in a sense, and we don't always love the word competence, but relate to you know, this this tripart model of awareness. 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:36.000 And so, like the first thing for us is foundational in counseling spaces is the awareness and your own of your own stuff. 00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:50.960 And so um where did I learn that when I'm seeing or hearing about this certain client or population or issue that I'm either really knowledgeable or not knowledgeable about at all, where did that come from? 00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:56.160 Where did I learn those feelings that's coming up, or what are where those those biases? 00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:03.759 Um so it's something that we have to do as counselors and educators um constantly. 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:19.359 And for those folks that might hold multiple privileges, um that's where I do feel there is a responsibility, imperative responsibility to um to be more present in those spaces. 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:24.880 But again, if you can and within the conflict, like within the bounds of what you can do. 00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:34.160 And so, you know, for folks that are listening and kind of feeling trapped in some of those settings where maybe you're not in alignment with your values, and it's really challenging. 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:40.799 I can't imagine, you know, the emotional mental toll that might take, you know, day to day. 00:28:40.799 --> 00:29:04.000 Um and at the same time, if that is a barrier, a challenge related to, you know, I'm gonna keep my job and have to do things that aren't in alignment with me, are there other ways that I can um move that energy somewhere else in a different space, in a different um organization, in a different way of advocacy? 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:13.519 So I think there's not that that is a replacement for some of this, but I think there's ways to for folks to move through some of those, some of those spaces. 00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:29.839 Um and you know, this makes me think about the importance of like you were talking about community in the classroom and the importance of right now, particularly in this space and time for us as square educators, but for and counselors and training and is like this that community. 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:59.279 And so um is the community of of us and other organizations, and you know, connecting with allied organizations and building upon those structures and people that you know, and um, you know, for example, Sage, the division of of ACA, the American Counseling Association, and Sage stands for the Society for Sexual, Affectional, Intersex, and Gender Expansive Identities Counseling. 00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:16.240 We're really focused on um those issues as populations, um, clients identify in those ways, and we'll offer some you know, some spaces for members to come and connect that are informal um spaces just for community and support. 00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:19.519 And that's what I've seen a lot of organizations do. 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:30.559 Um but I think that's that's really important on this side of for us as well, so that um so we can still do continue to do the work. 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:35.279 Yeah, I think that is absolutely correct. 00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:57.440 And I'm thinking like procedurally, and so this is kind of a note for anybody who's in administration at any level, but generally I've seen there's at least one day, whether it's meet the teacher day or come pick up your school schedule day, where you are trying to get everybody from one class and one space to do like a mini reset and orientation. 00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:19.039 And what I will advocate for is making sure students understand their rights and also where they don't have rights, and so I'm thinking about this situation that um I don't want to put the onus on teachers. 00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:37.519 That's more that's more work for them, but I do think that you know, if these laws are being passed, then students should be aware of them and not be caught in a position where they're confiding in someone because it is our job as educators to make our students feel safe, to provide a space where they feel safe speaking to us. 00:31:37.519 --> 00:32:44.160 And so I I want to make sure that administrators, district administrators, whomever you are, that you are out there making sure that students understand the severity of the restrictions that are being put upon because they run the risk of losing their confidant, they run the risk of losing their favorite teacher because the teacher is legally obligated to do something that is morally unethical for that educator, and so I really think it comes down to everybody working together to try to get ahead on it, um, and that when new policies roll out, like tell parents, tell students, like, hey, this new policy rolled out, and here's what it means, and like be proactive in it because there is an unnecessary risk that we're putting children in, as well as educators, by not saying these things out loud, by not calling things what they are. 00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:51.039 And if your district isn't, you know, we're not if we're not gonna name names and be like this is very fascist, that's fine. 00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:54.319 We can say this new policy exists, and here's what it means. 00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:56.799 We just need you to know what your rights are. 00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:57.759 Done. 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:01.440 Absolutely, yeah. 00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:02.799 Exactly. 00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:03.599 Exactly. 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:09.279 I think, yeah, you know, I think that that in itself, right? 00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:18.720 Like in counseling, we talk a lot about promoting client autonomy and promoting, you know, the wellness and the welfare of clients and students. 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:35.839 Um and so in that way, you know, we can we're we're we're uh we can mitigate harm because also and this it comes into counseling spaces a lot too about like you know, what are the rights that students have, like minors, right? 00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:37.599 And legally, none, right? 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:54.799 But that just even the feeling of not having any power or autonomy over things already, and then over things related to your humanness and your identity that are then going to be taken away from you. 00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:10.000 So um I think you know, a lot of times, yeah, I have conversations with, you know, I don't work with, I think when I work with with younger um folks now, like in you know, key through good 12 settings, and working in a clinical sense as a counselor, right? 00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:21.679 So I'm seeing that from a different different lens, but often have the same conversations about educating or often, you know, often students and clients are smart, so they know what's going on. 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:27.119 However, you know, sometimes educating on what does this what does this bill really mean for you? 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:31.679 Um so that you can make those decisions. 00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:41.039 But of course, that those are for f kids and clients usually that are generally to me out, or we have you know some working relationship or there's knowledge that there's queerness in the space. 00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:44.960 For folks, it's for kids that don't have that or maybe aren't out. 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:48.079 Um, you know, we just we see the harm there. 00:34:48.079 --> 00:35:01.679 So um this seems cliche too, but what what comes up for me is like, you know, this this personal story of when I was working um in a school setting as a school counselor. 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:06.719 Um, you know, I remember a student uh coming to me. 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:21.679 And at this point, I I think I had my own somewhat internalized homophobia or you know, homomesia kind of in brewing in me still, a little bit related to sharing what I maybe should share, or you know, just my own comfort. 00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:36.400 But that student, you know, identified that I was in the queer community um and had shared with me their own their own identity and said, you know, you're the only person that I've ever told about this. 00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:53.360 So just to bring this back to like a broader perspective and remind us also that when we're doing this hard work and it's and it seems daunting and it seems um like perhaps we're not moving the needle, we're not really doing much. 00:35:53.360 --> 00:36:22.000 Um you know, there's a balance of like if you're able to provide support in some ways, knowing that you could be just that one person that someone is coming out to for the first time or sharing something they've never shared before, particularly with counselors, but also educators, because we know, you know, in our research that in schools, outside of the school counselor, and oftentimes not even the school counselor, it's it's the classroom teacher that students will come to. 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:34.559 Um, and so again, barring laws that are kind of requiring you to do certain things, it's or maybe not even barring that, just keeping that in mind as a framework as you're working through with students too. 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:38.480 Like you could, you know, you could be and or are that one person. 00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:43.119 So, you know, I think that's just always stuck with me that that student had shared that. 00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:58.559 I thought, wow, what a powerful thing, what a privilege it is for me to be able to be in this phase, and then also um the kind of deep responsibility I feel um in the in that role, and that kind of drove me forward. 00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:19.440 So, you know, we know that research shows it, but also just tangentially kind of this like I've seen it where um, you know, just just to say that if we're not always feeling like we're doing the most that we can do in in advocacy or you know, community engagement or civic engagement, like whatever, you know, know that there's smaller moments that can matter. 00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:27.360 And that that comes up for me a lot through these conversations about policy and things like that, where it can feel it can feel burdensome. 00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:35.119 Yeah, I've had those moments and honestly, uh, they've been some of my my greatest memories, right? 00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.239 That they make you feel good when you get to be the confidant. 00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:43.920 Um, especially when you're in a setting where that's not necessarily the end goal, right? 00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:52.079 I'm not your counselor, I'm not the person who is here to um be the person you're constantly trying to share with. 00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:54.880 So when you get those one-off moments, it's really powerful. 00:37:54.880 --> 00:38:19.280 One of the things that grounds me in the conversation, though, is when I find out that I'm having a conversation that is not like curricular related or is not school related, I do like to lay out a foundation for my students of like, hey, I will keep this conversation as confidential as I can, but I need to let you know that there's certain things that I'm required to report. 00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:34.000 And like I will use that as like a foundation of like, I'm offering you this space, I need to let you know that there are restrictions that I have placed on me. 00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:38.719 And if one of those restrictions is hit, I'm gonna walk you through that process. 00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:49.599 So if a student shared something with me that needed to be reported, I will tell them exactly who I have to talk to, and then I'm gonna tell them when it happened and like follow up with them along the way. 00:38:49.599 --> 00:39:03.199 Um, and I'm thinking about this from the mandatory reporter's perspective because that's more aligned with what my experience is because I moved out of the state that's requiring all of this uh anti-queer stuff right now. 00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:18.079 Um, but I think that might be a useful tool for people who are in those spaces, is just remember that you can help drive the conversation in a productive way where you get to say, like, I am gonna like keep this as confidential as I can. 00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:23.440 Um, I need to let you know that unfortunately there are some boundaries that I am held to. 00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:52.719 Um, and just allow the student to then disclose as much or as little as they can without trying to close off the conversation, but just making them aware that like unfortunately, because of the nature of our position and the power that we hold in in in educational settings and the power that students do not have in educational settings, um we have some some guide guide rails that we have to kind of or guardrails that we have to stick within. 00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:56.000 I I do want to talk a little bit about Sage. 00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:58.079 You mentioned it, so I'm glad that you brought it up. 00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:09.920 So uh you're the president of Sage, which is um it's like is it a chapter of its own or like a cohort, or how do how does it uh fall within the ACA? 00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:33.119 Yeah, so it's a division of ACA, and um, you know, ACA has other divisions, um, the Association for Counseling, Sexology, and Sexual Wellness, Counselors for Social Justice, you know, career, career-related groups, um uh group work, like group counseling specific divisions. 00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:52.800 And so Sage is just one of those divisions um under the American Counseling Association umbrella that both um you know kind of serves um and promotes queer and trans counselors, and then also kind of highlights and focuses on queer and trans issues and counseling that we see. 00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:54.880 I love that. 00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:56.320 I think that's so necessary. 00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:02.800 I I will say, as a queer person, it is sometimes hard to find a queer counselor, especially nearby. 00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:19.840 So knowing that there are organizations out there that are promoting um queer counselors, I think that is phenomenal because sometimes there is safety just in who you're talking to, having an understanding of your lived experience. 00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:26.800 Um and it might not be the same exact, like I said, we have different privileges that we work in, uh that we work with. 00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:40.000 Um, but um having someone who has a a semblance of of of an understanding can really open the doors, I think, when it comes to conversation. 00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:41.920 Absolutely. 00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:47.280 And you know, one thing too to think about is you know, Sage, and I encourage folks to to check it out. 00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:51.840 Um Sage S-A-I-G-E counseling.org. 00:41:51.840 --> 00:42:14.000 Um we, you know, although we are a counseling-related division, um, you know, we have allied professionals and other folks and educators that can um, you know, be a part of our organization as well and engage with us, um, because we have a lot of educational offerings and trainings that are that are pretty unique and nuanced. 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:52.480 And so, you know, thinking about, of course, ranging from working with queer and trans youth, but also um, you know, different intersecting identities or within um rural settings, for example, or um all the way to working with queer and trans families and what that might look like, um, and or uh focusing on topics like you know um uh poly relationships or consensual non-monogamy, um, all things that you know educators could also benefit from in learning more about to better serve um to better serve students. 00:42:52.480 --> 00:43:04.639 So, you know, we have a lot of foundational language-based kind of conceptual theoretical foundations, and then we kind of um move up through some more advanced topics and intersections. 00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:08.719 So invite you to check that out if you're interested. 00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:10.320 Absolutely. 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:13.119 I uh we've got a lot going on in the world. 00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:18.880 We've talked about it a lot today, some of the harder things that are happening, especially in education and mental health. 00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:24.079 Um, I want to know right now though, what is bringing you some queer joy? 00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:39.440 Yeah, I love that question and I appreciate that um and the consistency in which you invite your guests to share as a part of just as just normalizing that part of our experience too. 00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:46.159 I think for me, what is bringing me joy um nowadays, a couple things. 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:59.840 Um, one is revisiting some Mary Oliver poetry and really using poetry um to I guess not even, you know, just reading poetry. 00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:01.840 Whatever it does to me, it does to me that day. 00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:08.239 So if it's learning more about myself, if it's better understanding the world, if it's connecting myself to nature. 00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:14.320 So I've been using using poetry and really, really diving in there as well. 00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:32.719 And I also think, you know, and again, this can speak to privileges I hold, as well as just kind of the time of year, but thinking about the opportunity for myself to slow down, strangely enough, has been bringing me more joy. 00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:49.119 So it's, I think, in a weird way, you know, I think in this um Eurocentric kind of commercialized way of living and individualistic way of living and like must work harder at all times, and particularly in this climate, a sociopolitical climate, like work harder, do more. 00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:56.400 Um, it's almost an act of queerness in itself to slow down while still being you know intentional with my work. 00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:05.840 But I think slowing down has really brought me joy, and it's scary, so it's counterintuitive because it feels weird at first, because am I not doing enough? 00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:14.320 But slowing down um has allowed me to to find more joy in noticing noticing things. 00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:16.639 So I appreciate that. 00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:21.760 My brain is like, don't slow down, let's keep going. 00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:24.719 And like it was so like ingrained in us. 00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:27.840 So I love that you're just like slowing down is helping. 00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:30.559 Poetry, whatever it does to me that day, it does. 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:32.239 What that's amazing. 00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:37.280 You that that came out of your mouth, and I was like, dang, that's that's that is it. 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:41.599 Whatever it does to me at that moment, like it does, and I love that. 00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:43.360 Um, I love that so much. 00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:55.679 I used to write poetry, and it is something that I venture or want to venture back into because I think there's just something magical about creating with words. 00:45:55.679 --> 00:46:02.639 Uh before we wrap up, I would love for you um to just share your final thoughts with us. 00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:07.280 It can be something you want to reiterate or something you didn't get a chance to say yet. 00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:10.800 Yeah, no, I appreciate that. 00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:11.599 Thank you. 00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:17.199 Um so you know, yeah, a couple just kind of programmatic things. 00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:18.559 I would love folks to check out. 00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:23.840 Um, our Sage Counseling organization, like I shared before, SageCounseling.org. 00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:36.880 Um, I also just self-promotion would love for folks to contact me if they'd love to connect in any way, um, at my website, Clark Osloos, A-U-S-L-O-O-S.com. 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:56.719 Um, and so yeah, with that being said, I think um, you know, uh a couple things that come to mind for me is um, you know, in thinking about even just the theme for some of the stuff we've talked about is uh small moments. 00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:59.920 And so, you know, I'm thinking about this in a couple different ways. 00:46:59.920 --> 00:47:23.119 Small moments in um in things that that you find joy in, small allowing small moments to bring joy to you for you to um remember the importance of small moments and also small moments in your work as educators and as counselors or whatever profession that you are in working with others. 00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:48.800 Um, you know, remembering the importance that we have with other humans and our oftentimes our influence as educators can be, you know, far with you know, far withstanding, you know, a one day or one one year, and people can have these memories of things we've done or said for for years to come, and it can really change people. 00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:52.880 So, um, so remembering that those small moments matter. 00:47:52.880 --> 00:48:23.360 And and also I think one of the things I'm I'm kind of passionate about too is this piece of you know, humility in the way of if we don't know what to say or if we make a mistake in our language, um, if we misspeak, um, you know, the appropriate ways of of kind of taking accountability of that while not um you know putting it back on that other person and making them feel responsible for even highlighting something that came up. 00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:26.480 But you know, you know, it's we're able to repair relationships. 00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:37.039 People have this fear of of um saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing in counseling and education spaces where sometimes the silence is uh more harmful. 00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:52.800 And so, you know, just thinking about, you know, if I say or do the wrong thing, it's it's possible to you know repair that what we call the therapeutic alliance and counseling, or just repair the relationship with students. 00:48:52.800 --> 00:49:10.719 Um and so that fear, you know, that can outweigh the fear that we might have in broaching something like identity or saying something, or if we say something wrong, again, correcting um ourselves, learning from that, and and then moving forward. 00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:16.159 So I would say, you know, to approach things boldly, but also, you know, to continue learning. 00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:30.800 I think the last thing I'll say was I continue to learn every day about, you know, obviously like you know, things like new terminology um and ways of being, and that can often replace things we once knew to be true. 00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:52.480 And so we have to also remember as we learn more and more about people, about lived experiences, about the ways in which folks, you know, see themselves or want to label themselves as as we shift our we shift and we learn, just like we do in you know, like the hard sciences. 00:49:52.480 --> 00:50:04.079 We learn things about medication and food and things that change our our perspective and how we, you know, those similar concepts we need to bring into spaces um when we work with people. 00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:12.800 And so that constant uh piece of learning and growing and rediscovering is also important. 00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:19.519 Thank you for joining us on this episode of Teaching While Queer. 00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:25.280 Please head over to teachingwhilequeer.org to see amazing resources to help you in your educational efforts. 00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:32.239 Let's continue working together to create spaces where every student and teacher can see themselves represented and supported. 00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:38.719 Until next time, keep advocating, keep celebrating, and keep teaching while queer.