WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:13.359 We can hold compassion and do the curiosity over judgment to foster these important conversations with people who maybe aren't there yet, but that does not mean that we have to apologize for who we are. 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:22.640 Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be. 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:24.160 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:32.320 This is a Teaching While Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom. 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:34.799 Alright, let's do the work. 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:47.119 I am your host, Brian Stanton. 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:48.399 My pronouns are they, them. 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:58.799 Today I have with me Shelby Hall Denny, and Shelby and I are actually working together right now, well, teaching while queer, and Shelby works for P Flag, New York City. 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:00.320 So hi Shelby, how are you doing? 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:01.759 Hey, Ryan, I'm great. 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:02.640 How are you doing? 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:04.319 I'm doing so good. 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:17.120 It's funny when I connected with Philip, who also works in P Flag Um New York City, he was like, Hey, we need to, you need to like talk to Shelby because Shelby used to be a teacher. 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:18.719 And I was like, great. 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:19.760 So done. 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:21.760 And here, here we are. 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:24.799 So tell us a little bit about yourself. 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:25.760 Yeah. 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:27.439 So yeah, I'm Shelby. 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:29.359 I use she, they, and he pronouns. 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:35.519 Um, I identify as gender fluid as well as I identify with the label queer for uh my sexuality. 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:36.879 I have a lovely wife. 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:42.719 Um, and I started my career in special education in Oklahoma. 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:44.959 So I was a special education teacher. 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:49.599 I've also teacher, I've been a teacher for English as a new language to adults. 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:55.519 And um now I run the Safe Schools program for PFLAG NYC. 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:06.560 And it's been, it's been a really, really cool experience to get to, you know, use my identity for good in the classroom as opposed to trying to make my identity fit. 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:09.280 Yeah, I I feel that so much. 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:13.759 Uh as someone who started like my quote unquote professional teaching career. 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:21.759 I taught voice lessons and acting and all this stuff before, but my professional teaching in a classroom started in Texas. 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:25.759 Um I definitely understand understand that vibe. 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:26.080 Yeah. 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:28.400 Um tell me a little bit more about that. 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:30.719 What got you into teaching special education? 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:34.879 So I actually, my original career plan was to be a professional dancer. 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:38.719 Um, I had yeah, I'd been training in dance since I was four years old. 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:48.080 And I actually I'm originally from Florida, and I moved to Oklahoma for college to go to Oklahoma City University because they were known for their dance program. 00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:48.879 Yes, they are. 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:49.599 Yes. 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:59.199 And I did that for a year, but um the standard for body types back then was one that I could not meet. 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:11.039 And so I ended up being at this crossroads where I said, you know, it's gonna kill me if I don't change careers because I cannot make my body fit into what they want for me healthily. 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:13.919 And so I made the decision to quit. 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:17.599 And I knew that I was always interested in special ed. 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:27.599 Um, I have a little brother who is on the spectrum, and I also used to teach dance to the special education classroom at my high school as a volunteer project. 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:33.039 Um, there was, I could have, I could graduate with dance honors in high school if I picked a project to do. 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:39.599 And I'd always felt drawn to, you know, just hanging out with these kids, treating them like the amazing humans that they are. 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.520 And so I thought it would be cool to do a dance clinic, and I fell in love with it. 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:49.360 And I actually told my parents right before I went off to college, I think I actually might want to be a special ed teacher. 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:55.039 And they were like, Okay, but if you regret it a few years later, it's hard to get a dance career back. 00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:57.919 I think you should, you should give this dance career a go. 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:00.000 You can always go to special education. 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:02.800 And so it was finals week. 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:05.759 I did not level up in ballet because of my way-in. 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:08.639 And I said, you know what? 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:09.680 I'm done. 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:13.439 I'm gonna major in special education, and I went to go change my major. 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:14.639 They said, Yeah, we don't have that. 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:22.879 So I ended up transferring colleges to a school nearby to do my special ed degree, and I did, and it was definitely the right choice for me. 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:25.839 I absolutely loved my time in special education. 00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:27.120 I love that so much. 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:29.279 First, I want to highlight a couple of things. 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:46.639 The very, very real problem that is like adding to um eating disorders and body dysmorphia is is is it's a very prevalent thing, not just to dance, but like I experienced this as an actor. 00:04:46.720 --> 00:05:22.639 Like when I was trying to work professionally, that if I wanted a job where I could keep the gig for a long time, then I had to um, you know, adjust how I was eating, how I was moving my body to kind of like fit an a pretty unrealistic body type, and it's such a weird thing as like an 18-year-old to have to navigate because you don't realize that you're developing a disorder, or you don't realize that you are developing a negative view of your your body and yourself. 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:29.120 Um, you're just like, I need this gig, or I need to, you know, level up and ballet. 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.040 So I love that you brought that up. 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:34.879 And I'm hoping, like, when I went to school, it was 20 years ago, right? 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:40.160 I I'm hoping that there was there is a better uh environment now. 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:46.959 I know that we're getting rid of a lot of that toxicity and we are being much more body positive in the performing arts spaces. 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:47.600 Yes. 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:56.079 Um, but for anybody else out there who's listening who's had that experience, know that like we hear you and we've been there. 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:58.240 Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:02.720 And then to jump in and be like, oh, I have a backup plan. 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:28.720 And it's like such a good one too, because when I when I started teaching, the the gift that I was given when I was working in Texas was that I had gone to work for a school where my she's my best friend now, but she was my like uh my hallway neighbor uh at the school, she ran the uh unified uh uh unified program for um Special Olympics at our campus. 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:38.800 And um prior to me getting there, they started a unified theater program because the Special Olympics had like one play, one play that anybody can do. 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.759 It's free, it's on the website if you go to Unified Champions. 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:56.639 Like it's a free play that anybody can do called It's My School 2, and it talks about you know what it what some of the experiences, not all of the experiences, but some of the experiences of students with disabilities on high school campuses. 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:11.360 And um, and so they started this theater program where the students are partnered um with uh other peers and we put on plays, and it was my favorite class, the one that I loved going to. 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:16.639 It was the one that I honestly like to this day, I'm like, can I have that back? 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:22.800 Like with all the other things I'm doing, I'm like, I want to be in my special education theater class again. 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:24.079 I loved it so much. 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:29.199 Um, and it's funny, um side note, this is not a plug, they're not paying us. 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:46.079 But I started I was started the new new season of Love on the Spectrum last night um on Netflix, and it's funny because my husband is uh you know watching the show with me and goes, Wow, you know, these kids that kids but they're in their early 20s, they remind me so much of your students. 00:07:46.160 --> 00:08:03.360 And I was like, you know, the wild thing is that those students are now that age, those students uh and they've got the same uh personalities as some of these folks on the shows, and it's just like it's a good memory that I have, and it's so cute to me that he's got these good memories of my students from that class, too. 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:05.120 That's so beautiful. 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:06.639 Oh love that. 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:09.279 Also, the yeah, the aging students is real. 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:15.120 I'm like, I found out that one of my students is having a baby, a couple of them are engaged, and I'm like, what? 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:16.879 But you're 12. 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:18.480 You're 12, you're 12. 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:19.920 Exactly that. 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:20.399 Yeah. 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.199 I only remember you in a Mario outfit. 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:29.680 Like um, yeah, I love that so much. 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:34.080 So then tell me how how did you get involved working with P Flag? 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:37.600 So actually, it was it was totally by chance. 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:42.000 So um I moved here for love in 2019. 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:47.440 Um, because classic queer story, I ended up with my best friend of eight years. 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:51.919 And when we took the next, we met at OCU, she was there for um vocal performance. 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:53.120 And being an opera. 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:54.399 Also no one for that. 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:56.080 Exactly, yeah. 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:58.960 Um, and she she's originally from Oklahoma and everything. 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:03.440 Um, and so being in opera after college, where's she gonna move? 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:04.639 Here to New York City. 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:09.840 Um, so when we got together, I was still teaching in Oklahoma and she had already moved up. 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:15.679 And so I was like, okay, when the school year is over, um, I'm gonna move up to New York uh to be with you. 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:17.440 And so I did. 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:26.399 And um I ended up teaching adults full-time in because my master's one of my master's degrees is in um teaching English to speakers of other languages. 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:34.720 And there was, there was um a discrepancy issue with my like my reciprocity paperwork, and I didn't have time to fix it um for the DOE. 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:40.399 Um, so I what decided to go a different route since I couldn't teach public school that year. 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:44.559 And so I taught adults full-time, and then of course I moved in 2019. 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:57.679 2020 COVID happens, and I was like, okay, well, well, we ended up back in Oklahoma because, you know, being stuck in a big house with a pool with my in-laws felt a little bit better than being stuck in a one-bedroom apartment. 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:10.320 So um, as soon as we were allowed to like leave in June of that year, we rented a car, you know, did it as safely as possible, drove down to Oklahoma to hang out with a family bubble. 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:13.200 And um, my job had stopped. 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:18.159 And I was doing um, I was doing teachers college um at Columbia online. 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:20.320 I decided to get a second master's degree. 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:23.039 I decided that before COVID, and then I was like, well, perfect timing. 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:24.159 I'll just do that. 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:30.080 Um then my principal sees that I'm home on Facebook and he says, Hey, do you want your old job back? 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:31.519 A special ed teacher quit. 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:33.679 So I ended up going back to my old school. 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:34.960 So I was gone for a year. 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:38.960 So then when I came back up, um, teachers college was in person again. 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:40.320 So I was like, you know what? 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:42.799 I'm gonna focus on grad school. 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:50.799 I'm gonna work in a neuroscience lab on campus because I was doing a degree in neuroscience and education um so that I could understand my students a little bit more. 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:56.240 Um, and um, I really missed being in the classroom when I was doing that. 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:07.120 And I happened to follow um Clark, the executive director of PFLAG NYC on Instagram, even though Clark just got our educator of the month uh for teaching while queer for March. 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:07.840 So that's awesome. 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:10.080 Yay! Yes, Clark is amazing. 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:17.600 And I followed him even though I didn't know him, because I saw that he like guest posted on somebody's page that I followed, and I said, that guy looks cool. 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:28.159 So um I saw on his story that they were expanding the safe schools program at PFLAG NYC and they were looking for part-time facilitators, which worked with my grad school schedule. 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:30.639 So I said, Oh my gosh, like this is Kismet. 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:32.240 I'm going to apply. 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:35.120 Like education and education about queerness. 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:41.279 That's like, so I applied, I got the job, and I was like, this is gonna be a great thing to do until I graduate. 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:47.120 Well, I fell so hard in love with it that when I graduated, I went full-time and now I manage the program. 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:48.399 So I love that. 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:50.720 It was a happy accident, yes. 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:57.759 Yeah, I love when things are like I I my route to getting to where I am started with something like that. 00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:00.639 Like, I graduated college with my voice performance degree, right? 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.759 So uh me and your wife have a lot in common in that regard. 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:37.600 Y'all got me, yes, and and um, and so I graduated voice performance, and then I was working for this company that was like helping music teachers find students to teach private lessons to, and I saw a random posting for a part-time, like seasonal position working at SeaWorld as a production manager, yes, and so like literally December um invite three children to move in my house uh because my husband and I were going through adoption, right? 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.279 So we went from zero children to three children the week before Christmas. 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:43.360 Um they were super spoiled. 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:49.600 Um, and then in January, I was like, I'm gonna apply for this seasonal position. 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:53.039 It pays more than I'm making right now, but it's seasonal. 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:58.000 Um, and so we're gonna have to be prepared if they let me go in, you know, eight months. 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:28.559 And then they didn't, and I moved up to part-time, and then I moved up to full-time, and then I moved up um in position to uh higher positions, and so like I wouldn't even be in this like theater world if it wasn't for taking that random leap on like the seasonal or part-time job, and so I know it's very scary for those of you who are out there, but sometimes you gotta take the leap for something that really like calls to you because it could change everything. 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:30.639 Yes, absolutely. 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:33.679 So tell me about the safe schools program. 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:35.679 Is this something that's only in New York City? 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:38.480 Is it something that people can access uh nationwide? 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:40.000 Like, tell me more. 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:47.679 Um, as much as my wish is for it to be in every PFLAG chapter in the nation, that um is not feasible currently. 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:58.240 So um we are the only chapter that has this fully realized safe schools program, but we have been working on helping other PFLAG chapters start one. 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:06.720 Um, we have we have worked with P FLAG Philly, um, and they are hopefully in the process of starting one and P FLAG Boston as well. 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:08.000 We've helped them out. 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:24.080 And it was actually really cool because at the P Flag National Convention in October, Philip and I gave a workshop all about how the Safe Schools program started and some ideas for implementation um in you know in different areas in different chapters. 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:31.679 Because the truth is, um, it's hard to do it when you do not have a school system who will let you come in. 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:40.399 Because the legislation in New York State there is an inclusive curriculum law. 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:40.799 Yes. 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:54.639 Now I know as an educator and as as the host of this podcast from talking with people in the state, that um compliance and and you know law are two different things. 00:14:54.799 --> 00:15:06.000 But uh but we do we are fortunate in that like a program like this can exist because the law literally dictates that we need to have inclusive curriculum. 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:06.960 Exactly. 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:10.639 So we do recognize our privilege being in New York. 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:24.559 Um, but what we do with the program is our bottom line is helping people in school communities become the best allies that they can be to support the queer people that are involved with their school. 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:31.600 And it also conversely helps the people who are queer feel seen, feel that representation. 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:36.960 And we we bring allyship to schools through personal storytelling. 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:50.080 So whether we're talking to K through 12 students, to educators, or to families in the school system, it's always about, you know, here are some lived experiences, here are some ways that you can show up as an ally. 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:57.759 And if you are queer, you know, maybe you can connect with something that we said and something that has worked in our lives. 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:01.519 So it's it's a it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thing. 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:06.639 We we educate, we educate too on, you know, like what does it mean to be in this community? 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:07.679 What are resources? 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:19.200 And to your point on compliance, when we do professional development for educators, we go through that policy and make sure that they understand, okay, what about the bathroom for trans kids? 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:21.279 What about name and gender changes? 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:22.879 What are some best practices? 00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:25.919 What are some ways that you can bring inclusivity to your classroom? 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:31.919 So it's very much here's what New York says you have to do, but then here's some things that are also really great to do. 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:41.759 And it helps to kind of put it into context because the guidelines for trans and gender expansive students, it's a very long document on New York City Public School's website. 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.679 And so we come in and kind of say, okay, like what about this scenario? 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:46.320 What about this? 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:52.399 We put it into a perspective that helps them understand not only what they need to do, but the why behind it. 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:57.360 I think that's so necessary because uh legislators are not educators. 00:16:58.000 --> 00:16:58.399 Yes. 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:01.440 Um we'll say that louder for the people in the back. 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:03.919 Legislators are not educators, right? 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:09.119 And so when these laws get passed, I've seen this happen in multiple states and you're waiting for guidance. 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:13.279 Like you're looking at don't say gay laws, you're looking at whatever it might be. 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:23.839 And the language is so poorly written that like there really is no reading the document and going, Oh, I know exactly what to do. 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:30.319 You have to kind of ever everything is up for interpretation, which I think is part of legalese, right? 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.720 But at the same time, as an educator, I don't have time for that. 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:41.759 I don't have time to sift through a long document and then parse out what I can do and what I can't do. 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:50.160 And what's happening is that the bills are being named things that are very direct, like don't say gay, right? 00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:58.480 So that people are are complying with that idea when the actual like legislation says very specific things about it. 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:03.920 Um and I think that the same thing happens when we're saying in be inclusive. 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:08.319 It's like here's all you know, you have to be inclusive. 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:09.920 Well, what the hell does that mean? 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:10.559 Like, right? 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:12.319 I'm not sure how to do that. 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:17.839 So I love that you're providing like practical steps and practical ideas for people. 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:30.400 I try to do that with my work, my research uh for my master's degree is in inclusive education, um, both culturally and also including students with disabilities from the get-go. 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:35.039 Um, and so because of that, I'm like, okay, here's your learning objective for the day. 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:40.720 Here are some ways that you could do this in an inclusive manner, and I just like share that information out. 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.079 Um I it's super popular on LinkedIn. 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:47.759 I didn't think LinkedIn would be the place, but it is apparently. 00:18:47.920 --> 00:19:00.640 Um but like um I want to try to provide as many practical steps for people as possible because we just have too much going on to be able to figure it out all on our own. 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:02.799 So I love that you guys are doing that. 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:04.960 Yeah, thank you. 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:05.839 It's really cool. 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:12.079 So thinking about that, I have a couple a couple of questions that are adjacent to Safe Schools program. 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:22.240 If you're if you're talking with allies, um how how do you help them approach the idea that one, there's gonna be some discomfort? 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:34.240 Um and and two, um getting from the like safe space sticker to the action aspect of allyship. 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:35.599 Yes. 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:56.480 So one thing that we kind of have as a mantra is lead with curiosity over judgment, which is difficult to do because people are angry right now, queer people are angry right now, and a lot of allies are too, especially, you know, a lot of a lot of the people that we see. 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:07.680 We'll go to a parent workshop and it'll be parents who are here because they have a child who's queer, a child who's trans, and they're scared and they're not sure how to approach the conversation. 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:20.079 And so we teach that curiosity over judgment, trying to understand where people are coming from with their pushback so that you're better informed on how to move forward. 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:28.720 Um, because a lot of times pushback on, you know, allyship and education, inclusive education is well, it's inappropriate. 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:39.039 It's, you know, they're not, they're too young to know, or it's not okay to talk about these sexual things when of course we're just talking about accepting people's identities, nothing sexual. 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:46.160 And so we like to kind of pause and say, you know, okay, like tell me, thank you so much for your concern. 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:49.119 It seems like you care a lot about student safety, me too. 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:51.839 Like, tell me more about where this is coming from. 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:56.720 So then instead of the walls going up, we're gonna have a conversation. 00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:59.920 I can pinpoint, okay, like you're scared about this. 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:06.079 So now we can talk about, yes, no, like I I agree that this education should be age appropriate. 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:09.599 I'd like to talk to you more about what it looks like at this age level. 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:13.759 Because we go to elementary schools and it looks more like families all look different. 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:17.759 Your friend, your friend might express themselves in a different way than you. 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.640 We can still be kind, we can still be respectful. 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:48.880 So something that we do that really is aligned with that is we have a workshop for working with families that we do for um for educators in the school system to help them, you know, understand where some of these common fears and worries are coming from so that they can help debunk that in a constructive conversational way in order to, you know, help with the pushback and let these things happen in the school community. 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:56.880 That's one of my favorite workshops to do because it really gets them thinking about, you know, like, yes, it's it's horrible that this is happening, but why, like, why? 00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:58.000 Where's it, where's it coming from? 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:00.960 Where could how can we move forward instead of putting The walls right up. 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:03.039 Yeah, absolutely. 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:12.079 One of the recurring themes that's kind of popped up uh recently in episodes is just this idea that like safety is the baseline, right? 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:25.680 So thinking about what what your dreams for education might be, like how can we queer education in a way that like what is your dream for that? 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:26.079 Sorry. 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:28.480 I'm trying to formulate this question on the fly. 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:30.000 No, I love it. 00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:55.680 My my dream is that it's it's almost so ingrained that it's not like queer education, it's just an integral part of the education system that people are learning that no matter no matter who you are, it's not only like yes, it's valid, yay, but it's like it's natural, it's normal, it's beautiful. 00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:04.400 Um, so instead of okay, we're gonna have the lesson on queerness today, it's just it's just interwoven in everything we do. 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:11.359 When we when we read stories, we read like from the time kids are in preschool, we read stories from multiple perspectives. 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:16.960 We read about trans kids, we read about families with two moms, two dads, non-binary parents. 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:21.200 And it's just it's just a seamless part of the learning. 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:23.920 Um, so it's less about, oh, let's keep these kids safe. 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:32.240 And it's like, let's celebrate everybody for who they are from the get-go and not just it's Pride Month, let's talk about queerness. 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:37.519 I love that so much because it aligns a lot with uh anti-racist pedagogy as well, right? 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:43.680 Because we can't just be like, and here's the black scientist we're talking about today because it's February. 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:55.279 Um, no, it needs to just be worked in the conversation, and here's this person, and they happen to have a wife, or like, and it's just normal conversation. 00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:02.400 Um, because a shocker, are we just human beings living our lives? 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:03.279 Like exactly. 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:05.279 Yeah, that's wild. 00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:10.000 And it's such a silly dream because like it's just how it should be, but of course it's not. 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:19.839 Um so yeah, no, it and I love that we have so much focus on here's how you can be an ally to this specific community. 00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:30.000 But yeah, I think that it should always be intersectional and it should be, yeah, it should just be scaffolded in so that people don't people don't feel alone. 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:41.039 They don't think they're, you know, like I definitely even being in theater and dance, um, growing up in a school in Florida, you know, all I heard my peers say was that it was bad, it was wrong. 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.799 And so I felt very much like, oh, well, then I'm bad, I'm wrong. 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:51.200 And if I had had all of that representation just around me, I think it just would have been like, oh, cool, that's me, awesome. 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:55.599 Like I didn't come out as gender fluid till I was 29 because I didn't even know it was a thing until my 20s. 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.400 I just thought I was weird. 00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:57.119 Like I used to. 00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:03.200 I used to think I had yeah, I used to think I had um DID when I was younger because I was like, well, I change. 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:09.359 So I might have different personalities, like, oh no, there might be like because I had no idea that that was a thing you could be. 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:12.000 I just knew I was and didn't have the words to explain it. 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:13.200 Yep, 100%. 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:14.720 I am in the same boat. 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:27.359 I didn't uh start becoming I I I am gender queer um as my like identity nomenclature, and I use queer for kind of like everything, right? 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:27.599 Yeah. 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:33.440 And so I didn't have that language until I was in my 30s because the languages didn't exist. 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:51.359 And while there are like references to characters and references and mythology and all these things that existed for centuries, yeah, the actual terminology and the accessibility of that terminology to like the common person wasn't around. 00:25:51.680 --> 00:26:07.119 And so, you know, it's it's fine to talk about how you know Loki, uh Norse god, can was gender fluid and can switch through that, but I didn't have a grasp on that until I was in my 30s of understanding what that truly means. 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:12.319 Um and I honest uh this is another not paying me. 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.759 Um but I am in love with Rick Riyard in books. 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:21.920 Um and uh he has a whole series on different like pantheons of mythology, right? 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:38.799 And so there's a North pantheon of mythology that he has books on, um, and in one of them, you know, a demigod, a child of Loki, is is gender fluid and like f physically changes um depending on mood. 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:44.559 And I was like, I love this so much because like it really is like that. 00:26:44.640 --> 00:27:00.319 Like, right now, for those who don't have access to the video, but I have like bright fuchsia like shiny nails right now, and I did this for my students because I like I have a a prize box, and if they get a certain amount of points, they can change Mr. 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:02.000 Sanson's nail color. 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:14.799 Um, and so I did this for my students, and now I'm getting to the point where I'm like, no, this is like too feminine for like it's my nails are getting too long, the color's been on my hands too long. 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.599 Like, I'm like, nope, this is not right for right now. 00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:18.559 I need to change. 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:23.039 Yes, yeah, I've got my my pretty Easter nails. 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:28.880 Um, for those of you who can't see, it's yeah, it's like floral and yeah, French tips, and they're getting long. 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:30.079 And yeah, I'm the same way. 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:32.240 I'm like, I'm like, ah, I don't want them today. 00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:33.039 I wish I could. 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:42.960 My favorite character to play in Super Smash Brothers Melee, if anyone played that, was um the Zelda and Chic, because you could just press the button down and you could you could switch. 00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:44.720 And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. 00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:46.240 Now I'm now like, oh, I get it. 00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:47.519 I see why. 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:53.200 So, first of all, I stayed up until four o'clock in the morning last night playing Legend of Zelda. 00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:55.119 So, like there you go, there you go. 00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:58.640 Like the the uh the Zelda chic reference. 00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:00.559 Um fully in love with that. 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:10.079 Um, also love that that you know uh the mythology of Zelda includes so much like gender fluid uh I ideals. 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:16.960 Um but absolutely like this battle, I'm gonna be a chic, and this battle I'm gonna be Zelda. 00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:30.400 And each time I've got a new superpower because you know, with a new like personality, with my like when I'm accessing a different part of myself, it's like I have a re a resurgence of something new. 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:32.640 Yes, exactly. 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:34.880 Yeah, I love that so much. 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:39.519 So let's talk a little bit about what is bringing you queer joy right now. 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:43.920 Ooh, um I love to be with my chosen family. 00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:56.720 Um my chosen brother Adam was just in uh a mayhem themed show at a queer bar last night, and we were so excited to support him. 00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:59.039 He was playing the saxophone for a song. 00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:01.839 Yeah, it was it was it was just really it was really cool. 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:13.119 And so going to events um that are queer-centered, um, where you know it's it's our people and it's our musing, and it's just a place where it's a place where we just get to be. 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:16.960 And I'm a very big extrovert, so I like being out and around people. 00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:20.480 So I've been loving um doing things like that. 00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:24.640 Um I also have just been loving like dating my wife. 00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:32.480 We've been together almost eight years, married almost seven, best friends for almost uh 17 years. 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.039 Um yeah, 16 or 17. 00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:38.000 Yeah, so it's like we I guess 16 years. 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.759 So we um have always just enjoyed being together. 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:49.440 And my marriage gives me so much queer joy because I really I was married once before to a man because I was trying so hard to fit in. 00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:57.839 And the difference in this marriage has just, and I've been married, you know, twice the amount of time that I was married to this guy at this point. 00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:09.200 And just the the freedom, like being with my person, and even if others don't like it, like knowing how pure our love is and getting to have fun together. 00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:11.759 Like we're just we're like a couple of kids, you know. 00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:16.400 We're a couple of mid-30s kids and we just have the best time. 00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.200 So yeah, just be being with my people, being out. 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:25.039 And then I guess this isn't just for queer joy, but I really love to go outside when the weather gets nice. 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.599 I love to go on long walks, I love to go to cardio dance, I love to go to karaoke. 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:31.920 Um, yeah, I have a lot of hobbies. 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.680 Um, I'm an NYC brunch squad. 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:38.640 I'm like very small queer representation in NYC Brunch Squad because I'm also kind of basic. 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.240 But yeah, I have the I have the best time. 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:57.279 I'm just always like my heart is so heavy right now with the way the world is, but I'm trying to just make sure that I find the joy wherever I can because that's gonna make me better at my job, which is my mission in this fight for equity, you know. 00:30:57.599 --> 00:30:58.880 Yeah, absolutely. 00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:00.079 I love that so much. 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:05.599 And I think that there are there is so much joy that can be had in just taking the walk outside. 00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.799 And I'm gonna tell you the way the weather is right now in New York City. 00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:17.519 For those of you who are not up north, I know the south has been incredibly hot, like consistently. 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:19.440 Um, and I apologize for that. 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:27.200 Like, I really do, because having lived in Texas, like I hated when it was like 200 days of 90 degree weather. 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:28.720 Um fair. 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:50.000 Up here, it was 70 degrees last week, and then it was like 30 the next day, and like Monday it's supposed to be 80 degrees, but right now I am freezing, like literally in a sweatshirt with socks on in my house, like so cold, still having heaters running, and I'm like, I just crave the warmth. 00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:52.880 I'm like a cat right now, and I'm like my cats and my dogs. 00:31:52.960 --> 00:32:00.240 Like, they they go find their spot in the window where the sun is on the ground, and I'm literally that person in my house right now. 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:10.000 I'll just stand by the window and let the sun beat down on me because if I go outside, the wind chill is too cold to just stay stand there and absorb the sun. 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:13.200 It's so it's so it's so true. 00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:15.599 I've been trying to just like suck it up and be outside anyway. 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:22.400 But yeah, I've I have chronic bronchitis too, so it's like made me so like congested because it just keeps Yeah, up and down, up and down. 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:23.440 It's okay though. 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:24.160 Yeah. 00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:29.759 Um, so as we wrap up, I would love to have you say your final thoughts. 00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:33.200 What do you want queer educators to hear right now in this moment? 00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:38.400 First of all, I just want to tell you thank you. 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:45.599 You're you're amazing because every every day can feel like a fight when you're queer and an educator. 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:51.039 There's so much out there saying that you're indoctrinating people just for living your life. 00:32:51.279 --> 00:33:04.880 And of course, we know that's not the case, but you know, thank you for staying strong and being such important representation to students because I know something that I always want to be is the adult that I needed when I was growing up. 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:09.519 And being visibly queer in education is one way that I can do that. 00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:18.799 So I hope you feel seen, I hope you feel loved, and I hope that you are able to do things for yourself that fill your cup because it is not always easy. 00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:41.200 Um, and I also just want to say that something that I have learned as a queer educator, especially with my work at PFLAG, is that we can hold compassion and do the curiosity over judgment to foster these important conversations with people who maybe aren't there yet. 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:45.759 But that does not mean that we have to apologize for who we are. 00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:49.519 It's been interesting to be holding both truths. 00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:56.720 And that really started even before my work at PFLAG when I came out in Oklahoma and could have gotten fired. 00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:03.839 And my principal, who was staunchly against LGBTQ people because of his religious beliefs, we used to go to church together. 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:04.799 That's how I know that. 00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:08.079 My principal said to me, That's my personal life. 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:11.280 At school, everybody should feel welcome. 00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:16.079 And that was kind of the okay, I don't have to apologize. 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:25.360 I'm going to advocate for myself, but I can also maybe hold some space for somebody who might view things differently, but can still come together with compassion. 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:35.119 Because if we're gonna have more people on our side having those compassionate conversations without compromising who we are or what we deserve, it's that balance. 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:38.000 And so that's something that has been a journey for me. 00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:41.840 And so that's something I want to leave you with too, in case that's a struggle. 00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:43.440 And it's it's never perfect. 00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:53.280 But yeah, you can lead with curiosity over judgment and still be proud and advocating for your queerness and the queerness of education in general. 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.079 Thank you for being a part of Queering Education. 00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.639 This is a Teaching While Queer podcast. 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:07.840 Take what you need from this conversation and bring it back into your classroom and your students. 00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:09.519 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:12.239 Until next time, keep showing up.