SPEAKER_01: We can hold compassion and do the curiosity over judgment to foster these important conversations with people who maybe aren't there yet, but that does not mean that we have to apologize for who we are.
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be.
SPEAKER_00: I'm Brian Stanton.
SPEAKER_00: This is a Teaching While Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom.
SPEAKER_00: Alright, let's do the work.
SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Brian Stanton.
SPEAKER_00: My pronouns are they, them.
SPEAKER_00: Today I have with me Shelby Hall Denny, and Shelby and I are actually working together right now, well, teaching while queer, and Shelby works for P Flag, New York City.
SPEAKER_00: So hi Shelby, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_01: Hey, Ryan, I'm great.
SPEAKER_01: How are you doing?
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing so good.
SPEAKER_00: It's funny when I connected with Philip, who also works in P Flag Um New York City, he was like, Hey, we need to, you need to like talk to Shelby because Shelby used to be a teacher.
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, great.
SPEAKER_00: So done.
SPEAKER_00: And here, here we are.
SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit about yourself.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm Shelby.
SPEAKER_01: I use she, they, and he pronouns.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I identify as gender fluid as well as I identify with the label queer for uh my sexuality.
SPEAKER_01: I have a lovely wife.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I started my career in special education in Oklahoma.
SPEAKER_01: So I was a special education teacher.
SPEAKER_01: I've also teacher, I've been a teacher for English as a new language to adults.
SPEAKER_01: And um now I run the Safe Schools program for PFLAG NYC.
SPEAKER_01: And it's been, it's been a really, really cool experience to get to, you know, use my identity for good in the classroom as opposed to trying to make my identity fit.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I feel that so much.
SPEAKER_00: Uh as someone who started like my quote unquote professional teaching career.
SPEAKER_00: I taught voice lessons and acting and all this stuff before, but my professional teaching in a classroom started in Texas.
SPEAKER_00: Um I definitely understand understand that vibe.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Um tell me a little bit more about that.
SPEAKER_00: What got you into teaching special education?
SPEAKER_01: So I actually, my original career plan was to be a professional dancer.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I had yeah, I'd been training in dance since I was four years old.
SPEAKER_01: And I actually I'm originally from Florida, and I moved to Oklahoma for college to go to Oklahoma City University because they were known for their dance program.
SPEAKER_01: Yes, they are.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: And I did that for a year, but um the standard for body types back then was one that I could not meet.
SPEAKER_01: And so I ended up being at this crossroads where I said, you know, it's gonna kill me if I don't change careers because I cannot make my body fit into what they want for me healthily.
SPEAKER_01: And so I made the decision to quit.
SPEAKER_01: And I knew that I was always interested in special ed.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a little brother who is on the spectrum, and I also used to teach dance to the special education classroom at my high school as a volunteer project.
SPEAKER_01: Um, there was, I could have, I could graduate with dance honors in high school if I picked a project to do.
SPEAKER_01: And I'd always felt drawn to, you know, just hanging out with these kids, treating them like the amazing humans that they are.
SPEAKER_01: And so I thought it would be cool to do a dance clinic, and I fell in love with it.
SPEAKER_01: And I actually told my parents right before I went off to college, I think I actually might want to be a special ed teacher.
SPEAKER_01: And they were like, Okay, but if you regret it a few years later, it's hard to get a dance career back.
SPEAKER_01: I think you should, you should give this dance career a go.
SPEAKER_01: You can always go to special education.
SPEAKER_01: And so it was finals week.
SPEAKER_01: I did not level up in ballet because of my way-in.
SPEAKER_01: And I said, you know what?
SPEAKER_01: I'm done.
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna major in special education, and I went to go change my major.
SPEAKER_01: They said, Yeah, we don't have that.
SPEAKER_01: So I ended up transferring colleges to a school nearby to do my special ed degree, and I did, and it was definitely the right choice for me.
SPEAKER_01: I absolutely loved my time in special education.
SPEAKER_00: I love that so much.
SPEAKER_00: First, I want to highlight a couple of things.
SPEAKER_00: The very, very real problem that is like adding to um eating disorders and body dysmorphia is is is it's a very prevalent thing, not just to dance, but like I experienced this as an actor.
SPEAKER_00: Like when I was trying to work professionally, that if I wanted a job where I could keep the gig for a long time, then I had to um, you know, adjust how I was eating, how I was moving my body to kind of like fit an a pretty unrealistic body type, and it's such a weird thing as like an 18-year-old to have to navigate because you don't realize that you're developing a disorder, or you don't realize that you are developing a negative view of your your body and yourself.
SPEAKER_00: Um, you're just like, I need this gig, or I need to, you know, level up and ballet.
SPEAKER_00: So I love that you brought that up.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping, like, when I went to school, it was 20 years ago, right?
SPEAKER_00: I I'm hoping that there was there is a better uh environment now.
SPEAKER_00: I know that we're getting rid of a lot of that toxicity and we are being much more body positive in the performing arts spaces.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but for anybody else out there who's listening who's had that experience, know that like we hear you and we've been there.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: And then to jump in and be like, oh, I have a backup plan.
SPEAKER_00: And it's like such a good one too, because when I when I started teaching, the the gift that I was given when I was working in Texas was that I had gone to work for a school where my she's my best friend now, but she was my like uh my hallway neighbor uh at the school, she ran the uh unified uh uh unified program for um Special Olympics at our campus.
SPEAKER_00: And um prior to me getting there, they started a unified theater program because the Special Olympics had like one play, one play that anybody can do.
SPEAKER_00: It's free, it's on the website if you go to Unified Champions.
SPEAKER_00: Like it's a free play that anybody can do called It's My School 2, and it talks about you know what it what some of the experiences, not all of the experiences, but some of the experiences of students with disabilities on high school campuses.
SPEAKER_00: And um, and so they started this theater program where the students are partnered um with uh other peers and we put on plays, and it was my favorite class, the one that I loved going to.
SPEAKER_00: It was the one that I honestly like to this day, I'm like, can I have that back?
SPEAKER_00: Like with all the other things I'm doing, I'm like, I want to be in my special education theater class again.
SPEAKER_00: I loved it so much.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's funny, um side note, this is not a plug, they're not paying us.
SPEAKER_00: But I started I was started the new new season of Love on the Spectrum last night um on Netflix, and it's funny because my husband is uh you know watching the show with me and goes, Wow, you know, these kids that kids but they're in their early 20s, they remind me so much of your students.
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, you know, the wild thing is that those students are now that age, those students uh and they've got the same uh personalities as some of these folks on the shows, and it's just like it's a good memory that I have, and it's so cute to me that he's got these good memories of my students from that class, too.
SPEAKER_01: That's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_01: Oh love that.
SPEAKER_01: Also, the yeah, the aging students is real.
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I found out that one of my students is having a baby, a couple of them are engaged, and I'm like, what?
SPEAKER_00: But you're 12.
SPEAKER_01: You're 12, you're 12.
SPEAKER_00: Exactly that.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I only remember you in a Mario outfit.
SPEAKER_00: Like um, yeah, I love that so much.
SPEAKER_00: So then tell me how how did you get involved working with P Flag?
SPEAKER_01: So actually, it was it was totally by chance.
SPEAKER_01: So um I moved here for love in 2019.
SPEAKER_01: Um, because classic queer story, I ended up with my best friend of eight years.
SPEAKER_01: And when we took the next, we met at OCU, she was there for um vocal performance.
SPEAKER_01: And being an opera.
SPEAKER_00: Also no one for that.
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and she she's originally from Oklahoma and everything.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so being in opera after college, where's she gonna move?
SPEAKER_01: Here to New York City.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so when we got together, I was still teaching in Oklahoma and she had already moved up.
SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, okay, when the school year is over, um, I'm gonna move up to New York uh to be with you.
SPEAKER_01: And so I did.
SPEAKER_01: And um I ended up teaching adults full-time in because my master's one of my master's degrees is in um teaching English to speakers of other languages.
SPEAKER_01: And there was, there was um a discrepancy issue with my like my reciprocity paperwork, and I didn't have time to fix it um for the DOE.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I what decided to go a different route since I couldn't teach public school that year.
SPEAKER_01: And so I taught adults full-time, and then of course I moved in 2019.
SPEAKER_01: 2020 COVID happens, and I was like, okay, well, well, we ended up back in Oklahoma because, you know, being stuck in a big house with a pool with my in-laws felt a little bit better than being stuck in a one-bedroom apartment.
SPEAKER_01: So um, as soon as we were allowed to like leave in June of that year, we rented a car, you know, did it as safely as possible, drove down to Oklahoma to hang out with a family bubble.
SPEAKER_01: And um, my job had stopped.
SPEAKER_01: And I was doing um, I was doing teachers college um at Columbia online.
SPEAKER_01: I decided to get a second master's degree.
SPEAKER_01: I decided that before COVID, and then I was like, well, perfect timing.
SPEAKER_01: I'll just do that.
SPEAKER_01: Um then my principal sees that I'm home on Facebook and he says, Hey, do you want your old job back?
SPEAKER_01: A special ed teacher quit.
SPEAKER_01: So I ended up going back to my old school.
SPEAKER_01: So I was gone for a year.
SPEAKER_01: So then when I came back up, um, teachers college was in person again.
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, you know what?
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna focus on grad school.
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna work in a neuroscience lab on campus because I was doing a degree in neuroscience and education um so that I could understand my students a little bit more.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and um, I really missed being in the classroom when I was doing that.
SPEAKER_01: And I happened to follow um Clark, the executive director of PFLAG NYC on Instagram, even though Clark just got our educator of the month uh for teaching while queer for March.
SPEAKER_00: So that's awesome.
SPEAKER_01: Yay! Yes, Clark is amazing.
SPEAKER_01: And I followed him even though I didn't know him, because I saw that he like guest posted on somebody's page that I followed, and I said, that guy looks cool.
SPEAKER_01: So um I saw on his story that they were expanding the safe schools program at PFLAG NYC and they were looking for part-time facilitators, which worked with my grad school schedule.
SPEAKER_01: So I said, Oh my gosh, like this is Kismet.
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to apply.
SPEAKER_01: Like education and education about queerness.
SPEAKER_01: That's like, so I applied, I got the job, and I was like, this is gonna be a great thing to do until I graduate.
SPEAKER_01: Well, I fell so hard in love with it that when I graduated, I went full-time and now I manage the program.
SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
SPEAKER_01: It was a happy accident, yes.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love when things are like I I my route to getting to where I am started with something like that.
SPEAKER_00: Like, I graduated college with my voice performance degree, right?
SPEAKER_00: So uh me and your wife have a lot in common in that regard.
SPEAKER_00: Y'all got me, yes, and and um, and so I graduated voice performance, and then I was working for this company that was like helping music teachers find students to teach private lessons to, and I saw a random posting for a part-time, like seasonal position working at SeaWorld as a production manager, yes, and so like literally December um invite three children to move in my house uh because my husband and I were going through adoption, right?
SPEAKER_00: So we went from zero children to three children the week before Christmas.
SPEAKER_00: Um they were super spoiled.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then in January, I was like, I'm gonna apply for this seasonal position.
SPEAKER_00: It pays more than I'm making right now, but it's seasonal.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so we're gonna have to be prepared if they let me go in, you know, eight months.
SPEAKER_00: And then they didn't, and I moved up to part-time, and then I moved up to full-time, and then I moved up um in position to uh higher positions, and so like I wouldn't even be in this like theater world if it wasn't for taking that random leap on like the seasonal or part-time job, and so I know it's very scary for those of you who are out there, but sometimes you gotta take the leap for something that really like calls to you because it could change everything.
SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: So tell me about the safe schools program.
SPEAKER_00: Is this something that's only in New York City?
SPEAKER_00: Is it something that people can access uh nationwide?
SPEAKER_00: Like, tell me more.
SPEAKER_01: Um, as much as my wish is for it to be in every PFLAG chapter in the nation, that um is not feasible currently.
SPEAKER_01: So um we are the only chapter that has this fully realized safe schools program, but we have been working on helping other PFLAG chapters start one.
SPEAKER_01: Um, we have we have worked with P FLAG Philly, um, and they are hopefully in the process of starting one and P FLAG Boston as well.
SPEAKER_01: We've helped them out.
SPEAKER_01: And it was actually really cool because at the P Flag National Convention in October, Philip and I gave a workshop all about how the Safe Schools program started and some ideas for implementation um in you know in different areas in different chapters.
SPEAKER_01: Because the truth is, um, it's hard to do it when you do not have a school system who will let you come in.
SPEAKER_00: Because the legislation in New York State there is an inclusive curriculum law.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: Now I know as an educator and as as the host of this podcast from talking with people in the state, that um compliance and and you know law are two different things.
SPEAKER_00: But uh but we do we are fortunate in that like a program like this can exist because the law literally dictates that we need to have inclusive curriculum.
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
SPEAKER_01: So we do recognize our privilege being in New York.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but what we do with the program is our bottom line is helping people in school communities become the best allies that they can be to support the queer people that are involved with their school.
SPEAKER_01: And it also conversely helps the people who are queer feel seen, feel that representation.
SPEAKER_01: And we we bring allyship to schools through personal storytelling.
SPEAKER_01: So whether we're talking to K through 12 students, to educators, or to families in the school system, it's always about, you know, here are some lived experiences, here are some ways that you can show up as an ally.
SPEAKER_01: And if you are queer, you know, maybe you can connect with something that we said and something that has worked in our lives.
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_01: We we educate, we educate too on, you know, like what does it mean to be in this community?
SPEAKER_01: What are resources?
SPEAKER_01: And to your point on compliance, when we do professional development for educators, we go through that policy and make sure that they understand, okay, what about the bathroom for trans kids?
SPEAKER_01: What about name and gender changes?
SPEAKER_01: What are some best practices?
SPEAKER_01: What are some ways that you can bring inclusivity to your classroom?
SPEAKER_01: So it's very much here's what New York says you have to do, but then here's some things that are also really great to do.
SPEAKER_01: And it helps to kind of put it into context because the guidelines for trans and gender expansive students, it's a very long document on New York City Public School's website.
SPEAKER_01: And so we come in and kind of say, okay, like what about this scenario?
SPEAKER_01: What about this?
SPEAKER_01: We put it into a perspective that helps them understand not only what they need to do, but the why behind it.
SPEAKER_00: I think that's so necessary because uh legislators are not educators.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: Um we'll say that louder for the people in the back.
SPEAKER_00: Legislators are not educators, right?
SPEAKER_00: And so when these laws get passed, I've seen this happen in multiple states and you're waiting for guidance.
SPEAKER_00: Like you're looking at don't say gay laws, you're looking at whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_00: And the language is so poorly written that like there really is no reading the document and going, Oh, I know exactly what to do.
SPEAKER_00: You have to kind of ever everything is up for interpretation, which I think is part of legalese, right?
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, as an educator, I don't have time for that.
SPEAKER_00: I don't have time to sift through a long document and then parse out what I can do and what I can't do.
SPEAKER_00: And what's happening is that the bills are being named things that are very direct, like don't say gay, right?
SPEAKER_00: So that people are are complying with that idea when the actual like legislation says very specific things about it.
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that the same thing happens when we're saying in be inclusive.
SPEAKER_00: It's like here's all you know, you have to be inclusive.
SPEAKER_00: Well, what the hell does that mean?
SPEAKER_00: Like, right?
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure how to do that.
SPEAKER_00: So I love that you're providing like practical steps and practical ideas for people.
SPEAKER_00: I try to do that with my work, my research uh for my master's degree is in inclusive education, um, both culturally and also including students with disabilities from the get-go.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so because of that, I'm like, okay, here's your learning objective for the day.
SPEAKER_00: Here are some ways that you could do this in an inclusive manner, and I just like share that information out.
SPEAKER_00: Um I it's super popular on LinkedIn.
SPEAKER_00: I didn't think LinkedIn would be the place, but it is apparently.
SPEAKER_00: Um but like um I want to try to provide as many practical steps for people as possible because we just have too much going on to be able to figure it out all on our own.
SPEAKER_00: So I love that you guys are doing that.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_01: It's really cool.
SPEAKER_00: So thinking about that, I have a couple a couple of questions that are adjacent to Safe Schools program.
SPEAKER_00: If you're if you're talking with allies, um how how do you help them approach the idea that one, there's gonna be some discomfort?
SPEAKER_00: Um and and two, um getting from the like safe space sticker to the action aspect of allyship.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: So one thing that we kind of have as a mantra is lead with curiosity over judgment, which is difficult to do because people are angry right now, queer people are angry right now, and a lot of allies are too, especially, you know, a lot of a lot of the people that we see.
SPEAKER_01: We'll go to a parent workshop and it'll be parents who are here because they have a child who's queer, a child who's trans, and they're scared and they're not sure how to approach the conversation.
SPEAKER_01: And so we teach that curiosity over judgment, trying to understand where people are coming from with their pushback so that you're better informed on how to move forward.
SPEAKER_01: Um, because a lot of times pushback on, you know, allyship and education, inclusive education is well, it's inappropriate.
SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, they're not, they're too young to know, or it's not okay to talk about these sexual things when of course we're just talking about accepting people's identities, nothing sexual.
SPEAKER_01: And so we like to kind of pause and say, you know, okay, like tell me, thank you so much for your concern.
SPEAKER_01: It seems like you care a lot about student safety, me too.
SPEAKER_01: Like, tell me more about where this is coming from.
SPEAKER_01: So then instead of the walls going up, we're gonna have a conversation.
SPEAKER_01: I can pinpoint, okay, like you're scared about this.
SPEAKER_01: So now we can talk about, yes, no, like I I agree that this education should be age appropriate.
SPEAKER_01: I'd like to talk to you more about what it looks like at this age level.
SPEAKER_01: Because we go to elementary schools and it looks more like families all look different.
SPEAKER_01: Your friend, your friend might express themselves in a different way than you.
SPEAKER_01: We can still be kind, we can still be respectful.
SPEAKER_01: So something that we do that really is aligned with that is we have a workshop for working with families that we do for um for educators in the school system to help them, you know, understand where some of these common fears and worries are coming from so that they can help debunk that in a constructive conversational way in order to, you know, help with the pushback and let these things happen in the school community.
SPEAKER_01: That's one of my favorite workshops to do because it really gets them thinking about, you know, like, yes, it's it's horrible that this is happening, but why, like, why?
SPEAKER_01: Where's it, where's it coming from?
SPEAKER_01: Where could how can we move forward instead of putting The walls right up.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: One of the recurring themes that's kind of popped up uh recently in episodes is just this idea that like safety is the baseline, right?
SPEAKER_00: So thinking about what what your dreams for education might be, like how can we queer education in a way that like what is your dream for that?
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to formulate this question on the fly.
SPEAKER_01: No, I love it.
SPEAKER_01: My my dream is that it's it's almost so ingrained that it's not like queer education, it's just an integral part of the education system that people are learning that no matter no matter who you are, it's not only like yes, it's valid, yay, but it's like it's natural, it's normal, it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so instead of okay, we're gonna have the lesson on queerness today, it's just it's just interwoven in everything we do.
SPEAKER_01: When we when we read stories, we read like from the time kids are in preschool, we read stories from multiple perspectives.
SPEAKER_01: We read about trans kids, we read about families with two moms, two dads, non-binary parents.
SPEAKER_01: And it's just it's just a seamless part of the learning.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's less about, oh, let's keep these kids safe.
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, let's celebrate everybody for who they are from the get-go and not just it's Pride Month, let's talk about queerness.
SPEAKER_00: I love that so much because it aligns a lot with uh anti-racist pedagogy as well, right?
SPEAKER_00: Because we can't just be like, and here's the black scientist we're talking about today because it's February.
SPEAKER_00: Um, no, it needs to just be worked in the conversation, and here's this person, and they happen to have a wife, or like, and it's just normal conversation.
SPEAKER_00: Um, because a shocker, are we just human beings living our lives?
SPEAKER_00: Like exactly.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's wild.
SPEAKER_01: And it's such a silly dream because like it's just how it should be, but of course it's not.
SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, no, it and I love that we have so much focus on here's how you can be an ally to this specific community.
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think that it should always be intersectional and it should be, yeah, it should just be scaffolded in so that people don't people don't feel alone.
SPEAKER_01: They don't think they're, you know, like I definitely even being in theater and dance, um, growing up in a school in Florida, you know, all I heard my peers say was that it was bad, it was wrong.
SPEAKER_01: And so I felt very much like, oh, well, then I'm bad, I'm wrong.
SPEAKER_01: And if I had had all of that representation just around me, I think it just would have been like, oh, cool, that's me, awesome.
SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't come out as gender fluid till I was 29 because I didn't even know it was a thing until my 20s.
SPEAKER_01: I just thought I was weird.
SPEAKER_01: Like I used to.
SPEAKER_01: I used to think I had yeah, I used to think I had um DID when I was younger because I was like, well, I change.
SPEAKER_01: So I might have different personalities, like, oh no, there might be like because I had no idea that that was a thing you could be.
SPEAKER_01: I just knew I was and didn't have the words to explain it.
SPEAKER_00: Yep, 100%.
SPEAKER_00: I am in the same boat.
SPEAKER_00: I didn't uh start becoming I I I am gender queer um as my like identity nomenclature, and I use queer for kind of like everything, right?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And so I didn't have that language until I was in my 30s because the languages didn't exist.
SPEAKER_00: And while there are like references to characters and references and mythology and all these things that existed for centuries, yeah, the actual terminology and the accessibility of that terminology to like the common person wasn't around.
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it's it's fine to talk about how you know Loki, uh Norse god, can was gender fluid and can switch through that, but I didn't have a grasp on that until I was in my 30s of understanding what that truly means.
SPEAKER_00: Um and I honest uh this is another not paying me.
SPEAKER_00: Um but I am in love with Rick Riyard in books.
SPEAKER_00: Um and uh he has a whole series on different like pantheons of mythology, right?
SPEAKER_00: And so there's a North pantheon of mythology that he has books on, um, and in one of them, you know, a demigod, a child of Loki, is is gender fluid and like f physically changes um depending on mood.
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I love this so much because like it really is like that.
SPEAKER_00: Like, right now, for those who don't have access to the video, but I have like bright fuchsia like shiny nails right now, and I did this for my students because I like I have a a prize box, and if they get a certain amount of points, they can change Mr.
SPEAKER_00: Sanson's nail color.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I did this for my students, and now I'm getting to the point where I'm like, no, this is like too feminine for like it's my nails are getting too long, the color's been on my hands too long.
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm like, nope, this is not right for right now.
SPEAKER_00: I need to change.
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, I've got my my pretty Easter nails.
SPEAKER_01: Um, for those of you who can't see, it's yeah, it's like floral and yeah, French tips, and they're getting long.
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I'm the same way.
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I'm like, ah, I don't want them today.
SPEAKER_01: I wish I could.
SPEAKER_01: My favorite character to play in Super Smash Brothers Melee, if anyone played that, was um the Zelda and Chic, because you could just press the button down and you could you could switch.
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cool.
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm now like, oh, I get it.
SPEAKER_01: I see why.
SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, I stayed up until four o'clock in the morning last night playing Legend of Zelda.
SPEAKER_00: So, like there you go, there you go.
SPEAKER_00: Like the the uh the Zelda chic reference.
SPEAKER_00: Um fully in love with that.
SPEAKER_00: Um, also love that that you know uh the mythology of Zelda includes so much like gender fluid uh I ideals.
SPEAKER_00: Um but absolutely like this battle, I'm gonna be a chic, and this battle I'm gonna be Zelda.
SPEAKER_00: And each time I've got a new superpower because you know, with a new like personality, with my like when I'm accessing a different part of myself, it's like I have a re a resurgence of something new.
SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that so much.
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk a little bit about what is bringing you queer joy right now.
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, um I love to be with my chosen family.
SPEAKER_01: Um my chosen brother Adam was just in uh a mayhem themed show at a queer bar last night, and we were so excited to support him.
SPEAKER_01: He was playing the saxophone for a song.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was it was it was just really it was really cool.
SPEAKER_01: And so going to events um that are queer-centered, um, where you know it's it's our people and it's our musing, and it's just a place where it's a place where we just get to be.
SPEAKER_01: And I'm a very big extrovert, so I like being out and around people.
SPEAKER_01: So I've been loving um doing things like that.
SPEAKER_01: Um I also have just been loving like dating my wife.
SPEAKER_01: We've been together almost eight years, married almost seven, best friends for almost uh 17 years.
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, 16 or 17.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's like we I guess 16 years.
SPEAKER_01: So we um have always just enjoyed being together.
SPEAKER_01: And my marriage gives me so much queer joy because I really I was married once before to a man because I was trying so hard to fit in.
SPEAKER_01: And the difference in this marriage has just, and I've been married, you know, twice the amount of time that I was married to this guy at this point.
SPEAKER_01: And just the the freedom, like being with my person, and even if others don't like it, like knowing how pure our love is and getting to have fun together.
SPEAKER_01: Like we're just we're like a couple of kids, you know.
SPEAKER_01: We're a couple of mid-30s kids and we just have the best time.
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, just be being with my people, being out.
SPEAKER_01: And then I guess this isn't just for queer joy, but I really love to go outside when the weather gets nice.
SPEAKER_01: I love to go on long walks, I love to go to cardio dance, I love to go to karaoke.
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I have a lot of hobbies.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm an NYC brunch squad.
SPEAKER_01: I'm like very small queer representation in NYC Brunch Squad because I'm also kind of basic.
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I have the I have the best time.
SPEAKER_01: I'm just always like my heart is so heavy right now with the way the world is, but I'm trying to just make sure that I find the joy wherever I can because that's gonna make me better at my job, which is my mission in this fight for equity, you know.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: I love that so much.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that there are there is so much joy that can be had in just taking the walk outside.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna tell you the way the weather is right now in New York City.
SPEAKER_00: For those of you who are not up north, I know the south has been incredibly hot, like consistently.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I apologize for that.
SPEAKER_00: Like, I really do, because having lived in Texas, like I hated when it was like 200 days of 90 degree weather.
SPEAKER_00: Um fair.
SPEAKER_00: Up here, it was 70 degrees last week, and then it was like 30 the next day, and like Monday it's supposed to be 80 degrees, but right now I am freezing, like literally in a sweatshirt with socks on in my house, like so cold, still having heaters running, and I'm like, I just crave the warmth.
SPEAKER_00: I'm like a cat right now, and I'm like my cats and my dogs.
SPEAKER_00: Like, they they go find their spot in the window where the sun is on the ground, and I'm literally that person in my house right now.
SPEAKER_00: I'll just stand by the window and let the sun beat down on me because if I go outside, the wind chill is too cold to just stay stand there and absorb the sun.
SPEAKER_01: It's so it's so it's so true.
SPEAKER_01: I've been trying to just like suck it up and be outside anyway.
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I've I have chronic bronchitis too, so it's like made me so like congested because it just keeps Yeah, up and down, up and down.
SPEAKER_01: It's okay though.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Um, so as we wrap up, I would love to have you say your final thoughts.
SPEAKER_00: What do you want queer educators to hear right now in this moment?
SPEAKER_01: First of all, I just want to tell you thank you.
SPEAKER_01: You're you're amazing because every every day can feel like a fight when you're queer and an educator.
SPEAKER_01: There's so much out there saying that you're indoctrinating people just for living your life.
SPEAKER_01: And of course, we know that's not the case, but you know, thank you for staying strong and being such important representation to students because I know something that I always want to be is the adult that I needed when I was growing up.
SPEAKER_01: And being visibly queer in education is one way that I can do that.
SPEAKER_01: So I hope you feel seen, I hope you feel loved, and I hope that you are able to do things for yourself that fill your cup because it is not always easy.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I also just want to say that something that I have learned as a queer educator, especially with my work at PFLAG, is that we can hold compassion and do the curiosity over judgment to foster these important conversations with people who maybe aren't there yet.
SPEAKER_01: But that does not mean that we have to apologize for who we are.
SPEAKER_01: It's been interesting to be holding both truths.
SPEAKER_01: And that really started even before my work at PFLAG when I came out in Oklahoma and could have gotten fired.
SPEAKER_01: And my principal, who was staunchly against LGBTQ people because of his religious beliefs, we used to go to church together.
SPEAKER_01: That's how I know that.
SPEAKER_01: My principal said to me, That's my personal life.
SPEAKER_01: At school, everybody should feel welcome.
SPEAKER_01: And that was kind of the okay, I don't have to apologize.
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to advocate for myself, but I can also maybe hold some space for somebody who might view things differently, but can still come together with compassion.
SPEAKER_01: Because if we're gonna have more people on our side having those compassionate conversations without compromising who we are or what we deserve, it's that balance.
SPEAKER_01: And so that's something that has been a journey for me.
SPEAKER_01: And so that's something I want to leave you with too, in case that's a struggle.
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's never perfect.
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, you can lead with curiosity over judgment and still be proud and advocating for your queerness and the queerness of education in general.
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being a part of Queering Education.
SPEAKER_00: This is a Teaching While Queer podcast.
SPEAKER_00: Take what you need from this conversation and bring it back into your classroom and your students.
SPEAKER_00: I'm Brian Stanton.
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep showing up.