SPEAKER_01: Some straight cisgender educators are trying to get better at not forcing you to do all the work of orienting people to be an inclusive, supportive educator.
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be.
SPEAKER_00: I'm Brian Stanton.
SPEAKER_00: This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom.
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's do the work.
SPEAKER_00: And today we have with us Sue Granzella.
SPEAKER_00: Hi, Sue.
SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm doing great, and I'm really excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Brian.
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate so much.
SPEAKER_00: Uh you reached out and immediately scheduled an appointment, sent an email, follow-up.
SPEAKER_00: Like I really appreciate your enthusiasm and I'm excited to sit down and have a conversation with you.
SPEAKER_00: I love when we have the opportunity to have really strong educational allies with us to talk about what other ally educators can do to kind of create this welcoming space, not just for students, but also for educators.
SPEAKER_00: So I love that you're here and I'm looking forward to hearing your story.
SPEAKER_00: So to start, can you tell everybody who's listening a little bit more about yourself?
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: I am straight cisgender.
SPEAKER_01: My pronouns are she, her.
SPEAKER_01: I taught in public schools for 32 years.
SPEAKER_01: I retired almost five years ago.
SPEAKER_01: I can't believe it.
SPEAKER_01: Um I live in California and I taught in, I live and taught in the Bay Area of California.
SPEAKER_01: And I was always at Title I schools.
SPEAKER_01: So um kids who were of not high income backgrounds and uh very diverse racially, and um yeah, so that's a little about me.
SPEAKER_00: I love that you worked in Title I schools.
SPEAKER_00: As somebody who works in an urban uh school district, I I have has had a plethora of students from diverse backgrounds and diverse income levels, and I just uh have a special place for for working uh on creating experiences that are inaccessible at times.
SPEAKER_00: So um I love I love folks who have come from Title I schools.
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate the work that um that everybody does to ensure equity, um, especially when the systems aren't built that way.
SPEAKER_00: Um so just briefly, let's talk a bit about your educational experience.
SPEAKER_00: Like what got you into teaching and what was your experience like as an educator in the Bay Area?
SPEAKER_01: Well, um, I fell in love with my third grade teacher and thought, okay, I want to be a teacher.
SPEAKER_01: And then I had that same teacher again in seventh grade, and I did not like her.
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I never want to be a teacher.
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to do something where kids are gonna hate me all day.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then but then when I was about in my late 20s, I I came back to the idea of it.
SPEAKER_01: And uh first I would this tells you a little bit about the kind of activist work I was doing.
SPEAKER_01: First, I thought that um it might corrupt me because I would make too much money.
SPEAKER_01: Um that is not the case.
SPEAKER_00: Um raise your hand if you've ever thought you made too much money as an educator.
SPEAKER_01: As a teacher.
SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: I was I was doing all I was doing a lot of uh like work with refugees from Central American wars and stuff.
SPEAKER_01: So it was uh it was a different world to kind of go professional for me.
SPEAKER_01: But um I I had been involved with some community organizing, not myself as an organizer, but I was going to a lot of meetings.
SPEAKER_01: I was living in East Oakland and just going to a lot of meetings led by organizers.
SPEAKER_01: And after a while, I just thought, we're talking about the problems of society that adults have kind of gotten going.
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I want to be part of working with younger people and help to foster a sense of community before they get to be adults and do things that require a group of people to talk about how we can help our community.
SPEAKER_01: So I I just realized I want to get them when they're younger.
SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, and once I decided that was what I wanted to do, and once I convinced myself I wouldn't be corrupted from making too much money, um, then I just couldn't wait to get started.
SPEAKER_01: And uh I was in a credential program a few months after I decided I wanted to teach, and I never looked back.
SPEAKER_00: And what were you teaching all that time?
SPEAKER_01: I was teaching um fourth grade and third grade.
SPEAKER_01: There was one year that I taught a two-three combo.
SPEAKER_01: Um, my God, that makes you get organized when you have when you're doing two grade levels at once and trying to follow two sets of standards.
SPEAKER_01: Uh, that was a lot.
SPEAKER_01: But um, third grade and fourth grade, oh man, the sweet spot.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I really love um third grade, is what I taught the most.
SPEAKER_01: And it they're just so full of life and enthusiastic at that age.
SPEAKER_00: I love I love that ties back to your origin stories with education, too.
SPEAKER_00: That you fell in love with your teacher when you were in third grade, and then it was a totally different story in seventh grade, which as a middle school teacher right now, I can attest that like the vibes are definitely different.
SPEAKER_00: So um oh my god, I love that, and how you came back kind of it's like a homecoming coming back to uh teaching in third grade and fourth grade.
SPEAKER_00: Um so at what point did you start to find yourself doing more work that was queer-centered?
SPEAKER_01: Well, I to address that question, I'd like to talk about my my terrible um lack of support and awareness before that.
SPEAKER_01: Um I used to the, you know, I've always been supportive, I've always considered myself an ally, but I I was very quiet about things in the classroom.
SPEAKER_01: And I was um, you know, if if kids would get mad at each other and one of them would say, you're gay, my methodology of addressing that was to chew out the kid who had, you know, used that as um a slur, as punishment, and just gotten really mad at that kid and said, We never say that.
SPEAKER_01: And that was not um, as you know, you know, and I'm sure all your listeners know, that is not the supportive way and inclusive way to be.
SPEAKER_01: And then at some point, one of my former students, um, I mean, there were certainly students along the way that I thought, oh, this child is, you know, probably gonna realize later that they're gay and, you know, queer.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but then one year, one of my former students came out when she was in sixth grade, and I saw that her, and the way that I knew that was her mother posted on Facebook, you know, my daughter is, you know, came out and she, the mother was so full of love.
SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, over a hundred people were just posting rainbows and, you know, hearts and waterfalls and just happiness.
SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking, oh my God, what did I say that year?
SPEAKER_01: Was I supportive enough?
SPEAKER_01: Did I did I help her know that things were okay?
SPEAKER_01: What what did I say?
SPEAKER_01: And I realized I shouldn't have to ask myself that.
SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't have to ask myself if I was supportive enough.
SPEAKER_01: Um, because if I'm asking myself that, that means I haven't always been.
SPEAKER_01: So I just decided, I made a commitment that I was just gonna be more vocal.
SPEAKER_01: And um, it also really helped me when I went to a union um awards event, and uh somebody who had gotten a human rights award, I really feel like he was talking to me.
SPEAKER_01: He said, um, it's really not as complicated as a lot of people make it.
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, especially I think in elementary, you just don't go into as much detail in things, but he said, get a book, read it, talk about it, write about it.
SPEAKER_01: And I went, Oh, I can do that.
SPEAKER_01: And so um, yeah, ever since I had that young person, um, I committed to be more vocal.
SPEAKER_01: And I also asked, I also um contacted some of my queer friends and I posted on Facebook, what do you wish your third grade teacher had said?
SPEAKER_01: Um and I also went to um, I loved the name of this group, the the middle school that was closest to me.
SPEAKER_01: Um, they had a, you know, some places call them Rainbow Club, Unity Club, whatever.
SPEAKER_01: And theirs was called Glow, um, gay lesbian or whatever.
SPEAKER_01: And I just I thought that was great.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I asked if I could go to one of their meetings, and it was really cool because I saw some of my former students in there, and I asked them, I said, what do you think a third grade teacher should do and say?
SPEAKER_01: Um, because I want to be better.
SPEAKER_01: And um, some of the things they told me were so simple that they just broke my heart.
SPEAKER_01: Um, like one of them was, oh, just have like a little sign outside your door, like a little piece of paper, maybe like with a rainbow on it, just like something saying that it giving the idea that it it's a safe place to be.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and one kid wanted a little box in the office where kids who were feeling unsafe could write a note and just put it in.
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, oh my God, it it's so simple.
SPEAKER_01: Um, which only underscores the lack of openness and the lack of visible open support.
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so that's a kind of a long answer to your question, but yeah, I'm really grateful to that mom who posted about her daughter on Facebook because that was really a turning point for me.
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: And I think what you're saying is is very impactful, especially for those who are like, how do I do this?
SPEAKER_00: And right now we're, you know, uh it's weird to say that the times are worse than maybe even in the 90s.
SPEAKER_00: Um but in some places that is the case because there are there's actual legislation that restricts what you can and cannot do in a classroom, and that includes that that sign with a rainbow on it and whatnot.
SPEAKER_00: And it's such a small signal, such a small thing to just let someone know that you are a safe person to speak with.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what drives me nuts the most about all of this legislation is that like if it's not for you, it's not for you, and that's fine, but everything doesn't have to be for you.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: Uh there are things in the world that are made for other people, and that's okay.
SPEAKER_00: So if the sign doesn't apply to you, then that's fine.
SPEAKER_00: But like to say that we can't have the sign because it doesn't apply to the majority of people is is kind of asinine.
SPEAKER_01: Uh and there and there's such a lack of understanding of people who get upset about things that don't apply to them, there's such a lack of understanding that, all right, well, people who live closer to the margins so much does not apply to them.
SPEAKER_01: So why is it okay that they are so often dealing with things that don't include them?
SPEAKER_01: But then you have a straight white cisgender kid who maybe a few things don't directly apply to them and people get all worked up.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a really lack of empathy and it's a lack of extending your thinking just a little bit to think about, well, what about other people?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: I tend to go on a sidetrack with this, but I will make it as brief as possible.
SPEAKER_00: But I think that music education has had a really good marketing team for so many years, um, and music education has gotten a lot of support in very in many places.
SPEAKER_00: Where I wish that things would have happened differently is for theater education to get as much support because theater is a place where you can learn that empathy that a lot of people are lacking, and it's also why things are under attack.
SPEAKER_00: Theater uh is one of the most litigated pieces of legislat like of art, like one of the most litigated art forms.
SPEAKER_00: It started its litigation process in like 1680 in the United States, well before the you know, before the United States, but on the in the colonies.
SPEAKER_00: And so like I think about the fact that as a theater educator, I'm teaching people to step in the shoes of somebody else, and how that impacts their uh personality.
SPEAKER_00: And the students who really take to theater, I I look at them and I see the empathy when they're working with their peers, and I see the empathy when they're working with other people, and then I see a lack of that in other spaces, and so I really wish um, you know, side note out there, we need a better marketing team and more funding for theater education because I really do believe that it has the ability to impact humanity, and and I think a combination of those two things would be ideal music and theater education, K through 12, either back and forth or as you know, half a year and half a year, or whatever the situation is until you know middle school or high school when you could choose, but like really teaching kids um what it's like to um step into the foot of somebody else, step into the shoes of somebody else, and and really kind of go on that journey with them is so impactful.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_01: And I I can't believe maybe it's because of being elementary, but so we don't really, you know, readers theater a few times, but I've never thought of course theater would would lead to a growth in empathy.
SPEAKER_01: They're practicing it constantly.
SPEAKER_01: This is one of those things when when I remember that I'm retired, I go, oh um, that, you know, as soon as you started talking, I was like, oh, do more theater with the kids.
SPEAKER_01: And then, oh crap, I'm retired.
SPEAKER_00: I'm not working anymore.
SPEAKER_00: Not the oh crap, I'm not working anymore.
SPEAKER_00: So um, in our an email conversation, you had mentioned um drag story hours and some experiences that you had there.
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to talk about those to give some folks some more context and also to share some realistic experience about what things are like out there right now.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so like I said earlier, I live in California in the Bay Area, which you know most people think of as oh, everybody's, you know, running through meadows of daisies and um California sunshine, and it's all liberal and hippie.
SPEAKER_00: Streets are paved in gold and there's rainbows every day.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, some of that is true, but most of it is not.
SPEAKER_01: But um, so the school district I taught in for the last 27 years of my career was San Lorenzo, and some people might notice that that sounds a little familiar.
SPEAKER_01: In during Pride Month of 2022 at the San Lorenzo Library, um, Proud Boys invaded drag story hour.
SPEAKER_01: And um when I heard about that, I was really upset because that school, I mean, I was just really upset, period, but it really hit home because that school was a short walk from the school where I taught for all those years.
SPEAKER_01: And so I was just kind of obsessed.
SPEAKER_01: And a day or two after it happened, I just was reading Facebook comments on the county sheriff's page.
SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to see what the community thought, even though I was kind of scared to find out what they thought.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and most of the comments were people who live in San Lorenzo and they were horrified at what had happened because it was really um a terrifying event.
SPEAKER_01: Um, there were there were men who came in, you know, and this is this is drag story hour.
SPEAKER_01: So the kids are little and their parents had to sign up in advance um for them to be allowed to come, and they had to, kids who were there, they they had to be with a parent.
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't like any random kids could run in off the street.
SPEAKER_01: And um anyway, the the yeah, there were men wearing AK-47s on their shirts that said kill your local pedophile.
SPEAKER_01: Um, they were screaming at kids, and this is um June of 22, so it was still kind of pandemic-y.
SPEAKER_01: And um, one little kid, a one librarian told me, because I interviewed several librarians who worked there, and um, one librarian told me that she heard a little kid saying, Mommy, why was that man calling us sick?
SPEAKER_01: We had our masks on and he didn't.
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, librarians were worried that they were gonna hear gunshots at any moment while they were calling 911.
SPEAKER_01: Um, when the Proud Boys took the protests out to the street, there was a neighbor who told a librarian, um, I left the South to get away from the KKK.
SPEAKER_01: This is the KKK right here.
SPEAKER_01: So when I was reading the Facebook page, you know, most of the comments from people were like, Oh my God, this is not our community.
SPEAKER_01: How could this happen?
SPEAKER_01: This is terrible.
SPEAKER_01: Let people live, let people be who they are.
SPEAKER_01: But every once in a while there was a comment that usually had the word protect or protection.
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, we need to protect kids.
SPEAKER_01: And I just kept thinking, from what?
SPEAKER_01: What are you afraid is gonna happen?
SPEAKER_01: What how do you how do you view terrorizing children as protecting kids?
SPEAKER_01: And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, they're talking about straight white cisgender kids.
SPEAKER_01: Straight white cisgender people who they they don't want to pollute their sacred children, you know, with with anything else.
SPEAKER_01: And so um I did some local activism.
SPEAKER_01: I did a one-woman prot uh demonstration in front of the library.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I made signs with glitter and rainbows and talked about beauty in all colors, and um ended up being interviewed on TV, wrote an op-ed in the San Francisco Chronicle.
SPEAKER_01: And then I just decided I wanted to do more.
SPEAKER_01: So I ended up, since I had just retired, I decided to start traveling California and interviewing teachers and librarians about what it's like to teach in the climate we were in in 2022, and now that we are in, except it's worse.
SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, that was kind of how a terrible drag story hour um launched me into this project that I I I hadn't thought about beforehand, and I just decided to do it.
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00: So, can you tell us a little bit about your book and maybe some of the stories that were shared with you?
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
SPEAKER_01: Um the book is called Push to the Edge, and then the subtitle is uh Teachers Stories from the Culture Wars.
SPEAKER_01: And um the stories, as your listeners would probably know, um the stories that were told to me mostly had to do with LGBTQ plus people, um, but there were also stories of um communities where the the school board, which had been flipped to Christian nationalist, where um they were trying to block the teaching of black history.
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, blocking critical race theory means blocking black uh black history.
SPEAKER_01: And I also heard some stories of librarians who were targeted um for their book collection um because they dared to have books with, you know, queer characters or um black civil rights leaders or um yeah, just rainbows on the cover, you know.
SPEAKER_01: Um so those were the kinds of stories I heard.
SPEAKER_01: And the way I even found people to interview, I went to the California Department of Education website and just did copy for the list of almost a thousand school districts, copy-paste, put it into a big old spreadsheet, got out a map of California, and just started saying, All right, I want to go way up north, I'll send an email to these school districts.
SPEAKER_01: I want to go in the mountains, I'll send one to these school districts.
SPEAKER_01: And I just started saying, I I went overboard on telling them that I was on their side and that, you know, I showed them the way I write about kids.
SPEAKER_01: I gave them my website, I gave them a copy of the op ed I wrote, I told them about the Proud Boys, and I told them they'd be anonymous.
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Anybody who has a story to tell, I will travel to you if you're willing to tell it.
SPEAKER_01: So one of the stories was, oh my God, this poor woman.
SPEAKER_01: Um, she was targeted by a pastor who dared to call himself Christian, um, who had um, you know, he was white, um, and he had raised a bunch of money and started a PAC.
SPEAKER_01: And so with the money from the Political Action Committee, he funded school board races in the area in multiple districts where he lives, got several districts to flip the school board to be majority Christian nationalists, and um, and then they they went after teachers who showed support to queer kids.
SPEAKER_01: And this one woman um was she really got it bad.
SPEAKER_01: Uh, she herself is queer, and um he found something I think one of the teachers in her district had forwarded to him something that she had put in a private Facebook group about meet having a meeting of queer teachers just for community.
SPEAKER_01: And so she sent it to the pastor, and the pastor called her out by name, the school where she teaches, he doxed her.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think he published her phone number um on this video podcast that that get, I think it got 120,000 views, and then there were people, you know, the death threats, the um people saying they're gonna camp out in front of her house and stone her, like in biblical times.
SPEAKER_01: So, and she was fierce.
SPEAKER_01: That that is something that really showed up in these stories.
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't people who it wasn't people who were so traumatized and terrified and had been um pushed into submission.
SPEAKER_01: It was people who, even though there were people who were deeply traumatized, they wanted to tell their story.
SPEAKER_01: And a few of the people I interviewed have left education, but for them that was a move of strength because they were like reclaiming, you know, their their dignity and they their refusal to be silenced.
SPEAKER_01: But other people, they they stayed.
SPEAKER_01: One another one I want to talk about is um a person, I didn't email this person.
SPEAKER_01: I read about them in um a curated California newsletter that I get every day.
SPEAKER_01: And it was like teacher down in this central valley town had hundreds show up at a board meeting clamoring for the firing, you know, of this person.
SPEAKER_01: And so I read about what they had done, and it was to be interviewed by the New York Times, where, you know, they the New York Times interviewed tons of people around the country, tons of teachers, and said, um, do you think parents, uh teachers should be forced to out uh queer kids to their, yeah, to their families.
SPEAKER_01: So this teacher said no.
SPEAKER_01: And then they said, um, some kids, they they said a lot of things, but the part the New York Times quoted was some kids need to be protected from their families.
SPEAKER_01: Now, most teachers who hear that nod, you know, like, uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01: We've all known kids who need to be protected from their families, but the kid they live in a very um, a very conservative community.
SPEAKER_01: And um there was quite the outcry and you know, the death threats.
SPEAKER_01: And and I reached out on social media and said, I'm doing this thing.
SPEAKER_01: I'll write down your story if you would like to talk to me, but mostly I just want you to know you're not alone.
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm talking to other people who are doing what you're doing, you know, yay, you.
SPEAKER_01: And they wrote back and said, Um, I can't talk to you right now.
SPEAKER_01: I'm too traumatized from you know what has happened.
SPEAKER_01: Well, a year later, both of us are hundreds of miles from where we live.
SPEAKER_01: We're at a statewide union human rights award banquet for one of my former colleagues.
SPEAKER_01: And I noticed my my former colleague standing across the banquet room looking at me, talking to someone else, and they were both smiling at me.
SPEAKER_01: And I went over to the other person that said, Do I know you?
SPEAKER_01: And then they just kept smiling.
SPEAKER_01: And my friend said, They recognize you from Facebook.
SPEAKER_01: And I looked at the name tag and we both just kind of screamed and threw our arms around each other.
SPEAKER_01: And that person, after they rose up out of their trauma, um, decided to go get their PhD in I can't remember the exact thing, but it's like educational leadership supporting queer educators.
SPEAKER_01: And what a joyous, full circle, um growing beauty out of seeds of despair, you know.
SPEAKER_01: So I heard lots of things that were depressing, but I also heard lots of things that were inspiring and have I've continued to hear those stories as I travel around talking about the book.
SPEAKER_01: I continue to have educators telling me remarkable things.
SPEAKER_00: I love that so much.
SPEAKER_00: What a great story, and also a full circle moment.
SPEAKER_00: I've had those moments um podcast-wise and nonprofit-wise, where I've been at a conference and someone walks over and they're like, I know you.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Do I know you?
SPEAKER_00: They're like, oh, I know you from this podcast.
SPEAKER_00: Um but I love stories like that, and it's funny because you keep talking about this, and I'm like, I want to talk to all these people.
SPEAKER_00: Um, because that's my favorite thing about the podcast is being able to just listen to people tell their story.
SPEAKER_00: Um so you mentioned earlier that you went to, you know, uh an awards banquet, and someone said, you know, it's it's really quite simple.
SPEAKER_00: Read a book, talk about it, write about it.
SPEAKER_00: So if you uh are you know talking directly to allies who are looking to support students and their fellow queer educators, like to support queer educators, what are some things or books that maybe you've used in the past to kind of start guiding conversations?
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: Um one of the books that I used, let me see if I can come up with the name.
SPEAKER_01: It was a local author who I met, I can't even remember how I met her, but she wrote about her son, um, who when he was in kindergarten um had a dream of being uh a purple princess in the Halloween parade.
SPEAKER_01: And so she wrote a book about going to the thrift store and buying a purple shower curtain and sewing the, you know, the garb.
SPEAKER_01: And so I read that book to kids, and the um, you know, it doesn't say anything about the child being trans.
SPEAKER_01: It turned out that as an adult, he decided he's gay.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so he's not trans.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it was such a lovely, it's called um one of a kind like me.
SPEAKER_01: And it was a very gentle book.
SPEAKER_01: A book that I read every year in my classroom after I um became more vocal is The Penguin Book, um, that a lot of people probably know about.
SPEAKER_00: We love Tango.
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
SPEAKER_01: And the people who want who get upset and want to ban, it's like it's a true story of penguins.
SPEAKER_01: Like, calm down, everybody.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think, especially, you know, third grade, my my sweet spot, um it's perfect for young elementary just introducing an idea that sometimes it can be two males, two females.
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_01: Because even though they kind of get some of the kids get a little oh, when you get to the part where the zookeeper says, I think they must be in love.
SPEAKER_01: Um then, you know, a few of the kids get a little giggly, and then by the end of the book, everybody is just rooting for little tango, and everybody's cheering.
SPEAKER_01: It is the sweetest book.
SPEAKER_01: I had one child, um, when I read that book, I said, when I was done reading it, I said, Um, does anybody, did that book make anybody think of anything, you know, that you'd like to share?
SPEAKER_01: And this very shy little girl just blurted out, I have two moms.
SPEAKER_01: And I knew that one of her moms is trans, the the mother had told me before.
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, obviously the tango book is not about being trans, but it's like she finally had permission to just say, This is who I am.
SPEAKER_01: That was something that was a little heartbreaking too.
SPEAKER_01: Like she was so shy.
SPEAKER_01: And a book about penguins.
SPEAKER_01: She could see something that I was giving her permission to be, you know, to celebrate her family.
SPEAKER_01: Another book that I love is so simple.
SPEAKER_01: It's for young elementary families, families, families.
SPEAKER_01: Do you know that book by Suzanne Lang?
SPEAKER_01: I think.
SPEAKER_01: I don't.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's I mean, you're middle school, they they would laugh, but it's just animal illustrations.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it says, you know, some families have one adult, some families have two moms, some families have, you know, people of different races.
SPEAKER_01: And it just, there's only a few words on each page, and the the illustrations are just silly and fun.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, at the at the San Lorenzo Library, going back to that, what happened?
SPEAKER_01: Um, the person in drag, Panda Dulce, um after after the horribleness, went back and finished drag story hour and read that book by Suzanne Lang.
SPEAKER_01: And one of the librarians heard a little kid when it got to the page where some kids um are raised by their grandparents.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, this little kid just goes, Hey, that looks like my family.
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that's the dream.
SPEAKER_01: Um, for them all to see themselves, you know, in the pages of a book.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I also recently met um an author of middle grade um books, and his name is Michael Liali.
SPEAKER_01: I've only read one of his books.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the one I read is called The Trouble with Triangles.
SPEAKER_01: And um, one of the characters is gay, and he's wondering if another of the characters is gay.
SPEAKER_01: And that book, of course, has been banned in like 13 states.
SPEAKER_01: Um because yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I read it cover to cover, and I I was taking notes, and while I was reading it, I just thought, why the hell would anybody have a problem with this?
SPEAKER_01: It's it's such a tender, gentle book that's about a kid who worries about adult things, and he happens to be gay, and he's not sure how to have guy friends because he hasn't really done that before.
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just so sweet.
SPEAKER_01: So there's so many great books out there.
SPEAKER_01: Those are just a few that I know of.
SPEAKER_00: I love how you describe that, a kid worrying about adult things, because as a parent of a middle schooler and as a middle school teacher, I see that a lot also.
SPEAKER_00: Kids worrying about adult things, where I'm like, you don't have to worry about that right now.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: You shouldn't have you shouldn't have to have that weight on your shoulders.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I feel like that's so relevant to you know reality at the moment.
SPEAKER_00: I feel like kids are so much more tuned into the world than I ever was when I was their age.
SPEAKER_00: Um and those worrying about adult things happen more and more every day.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was worrying about his parents fight all the time, and he was worried, oh no, are they gonna split up?
SPEAKER_01: I have to keep them together.
SPEAKER_01: And he's worried about um the family business, a pizza place going out of business, and he's like, I have to save the family business.
SPEAKER_01: And that's what the book is about is him learning there's pain, but we can't always fix it.
SPEAKER_01: And you're a kid, just just worry about kid, don't even worry, just just be a kid and let the grown-ups do the hard things.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was it was a really sweet book.
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
SPEAKER_00: As we round out, I have two questions for you.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: Um, the first is what is bringing you joy right now?
SPEAKER_00: I love to end with some joy, especially with all the terrible things we see uh happening around the world.
SPEAKER_01: Um, my book was published about a month and a half ago, and I'm I'm going around doing live events, and I get so high afterwards that I can I can hardly contain myself.
SPEAKER_01: The people I'm meeting.
SPEAKER_01: I'm there's a lot of the world's colliding kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I met people out in the desert a few nights ago, and we're just hugging each other afterwards, feeling united, even though we never knew each other, might never see each other again.
SPEAKER_01: Just feeling commonality and unity of purpose and the strength of community.
SPEAKER_01: So my husband keeps telling me, I'm watching you create a universe.
SPEAKER_01: This is what it's like to create a universe because you keep connecting with other people and they connect you with more people.
SPEAKER_01: So being connected with people doing good work is bringing me joy every day.
SPEAKER_00: I love that so much.
SPEAKER_00: Before I ask my last question, because I always end with this question, I want to do a short plug of your book again.
SPEAKER_00: So can you tell us um the title of your book and where where's the most lucrative for us to buy it from you?
SPEAKER_01: Um, the title is Push to the Edge Teachers Stories from the Culture Wars.
SPEAKER_01: It's not all heavy heavy.
SPEAKER_01: Uh there's, I mean, it is, but but I also there's some levity in there too.
SPEAKER_01: Um and any, I mean, it's in all the places.
SPEAKER_01: It's um it's in any independent bookstore.
SPEAKER_01: If they don't have it on the shelf, they can order it.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't buy things on Amazon anymore, but for people who do, it's on Amazon.
SPEAKER_01: It's on bookshop.org, which is kind of like an alternative to Amazon, and it gives the um profits, it shares the profits with independent bookstores.
SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, it anywhere that they sell books, they can order it.
SPEAKER_01: Libraries.
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
SPEAKER_00: I'm a huge proponent of bookshop.org.
SPEAKER_00: So if you find find it there, uh you can support a local bookshop and and the funds will go.
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, some of the funds will go to your local bookshop.
SPEAKER_00: So I I love that.
SPEAKER_00: Um last question What is something that you want to share right now with queer educators?
SPEAKER_00: What is your final message to them?
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, knowing the times that we're living in.
SPEAKER_01: That some straight cisgender educators are trying to get better um at not forcing you to do all the work of orienting people to be an inclusive, supportive educator.
SPEAKER_01: Um, just like it can't be up to black people to educate white people about racism, it can't be up to queer educators to go through all the torment that, you know, they can go through to teach non-queer educators how to be more inclusive.
SPEAKER_01: And a number of the stories in the book are about straight cisgender people who went through a lot because they are so committed to providing a truly inclusive education.
SPEAKER_01: And um, so I guess that's what I would want to say is I realize it should not be up to you, and more non-queer educators are starting to realize that also.
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being a part of Queering Education.
SPEAKER_00: This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast.
SPEAKER_00: Take what you need from this conversation and bring it back into your classroom and your students.
SPEAKER_00: I'm Brian Stanton.
SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep showing up.