WEBVTT 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:16.879 Some straight cisgender educators are trying to get better at not forcing you to do all the work of orienting people to be an inclusive, supportive educator. 00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:24.960 Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be. 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:26.480 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:34.640 This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom. 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:37.119 All right, let's do the work. 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:51.920 And today we have with us Sue Granzella. 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:52.640 Hi, Sue. 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:53.520 How are you doing? 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:56.719 Hi, I'm doing great, and I'm really excited to be here. 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:57.920 Thanks, Brian. 00:00:58.320 --> 00:00:59.600 I appreciate so much. 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:06.640 Uh you reached out and immediately scheduled an appointment, sent an email, follow-up. 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:12.239 Like I really appreciate your enthusiasm and I'm excited to sit down and have a conversation with you. 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:28.640 I love when we have the opportunity to have really strong educational allies with us to talk about what other ally educators can do to kind of create this welcoming space, not just for students, but also for educators. 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:32.319 So I love that you're here and I'm looking forward to hearing your story. 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:37.840 So to start, can you tell everybody who's listening a little bit more about yourself? 00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:38.799 Yes. 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:42.159 I am straight cisgender. 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:44.480 My pronouns are she, her. 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:48.079 I taught in public schools for 32 years. 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:50.000 I retired almost five years ago. 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:51.200 I can't believe it. 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:58.319 Um I live in California and I taught in, I live and taught in the Bay Area of California. 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:00.799 And I was always at Title I schools. 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:13.599 So um kids who were of not high income backgrounds and uh very diverse racially, and um yeah, so that's a little about me. 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:16.080 I love that you worked in Title I schools. 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:34.240 As somebody who works in an urban uh school district, I I have has had a plethora of students from diverse backgrounds and diverse income levels, and I just uh have a special place for for working uh on creating experiences that are inaccessible at times. 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:38.639 So um I love I love folks who have come from Title I schools. 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:48.000 I appreciate the work that um that everybody does to ensure equity, um, especially when the systems aren't built that way. 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:53.439 Um so just briefly, let's talk a bit about your educational experience. 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:58.960 Like what got you into teaching and what was your experience like as an educator in the Bay Area? 00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:06.400 Well, um, I fell in love with my third grade teacher and thought, okay, I want to be a teacher. 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:10.639 And then I had that same teacher again in seventh grade, and I did not like her. 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:13.280 And I thought, I never want to be a teacher. 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:17.360 I don't want to do something where kids are gonna hate me all day. 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:24.960 Um, and then but then when I was about in my late 20s, I I came back to the idea of it. 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:30.960 And uh first I would this tells you a little bit about the kind of activist work I was doing. 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:36.240 First, I thought that um it might corrupt me because I would make too much money. 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:39.520 Um that is not the case. 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:44.800 Um raise your hand if you've ever thought you made too much money as an educator. 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:46.080 As a teacher. 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:47.120 Oh my god. 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:47.599 Yeah. 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:55.439 I was I was doing all I was doing a lot of uh like work with refugees from Central American wars and stuff. 00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:59.680 So it was uh it was a different world to kind of go professional for me. 00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:08.960 But um I I had been involved with some community organizing, not myself as an organizer, but I was going to a lot of meetings. 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:13.680 I was living in East Oakland and just going to a lot of meetings led by organizers. 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:23.040 And after a while, I just thought, we're talking about the problems of society that adults have kind of gotten going. 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:40.720 And I thought, I want to be part of working with younger people and help to foster a sense of community before they get to be adults and do things that require a group of people to talk about how we can help our community. 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:44.000 So I I just realized I want to get them when they're younger. 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:57.600 And um, yeah, and once I decided that was what I wanted to do, and once I convinced myself I wouldn't be corrupted from making too much money, um, then I just couldn't wait to get started. 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:05.120 And uh I was in a credential program a few months after I decided I wanted to teach, and I never looked back. 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:07.839 And what were you teaching all that time? 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:11.519 I was teaching um fourth grade and third grade. 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:14.319 There was one year that I taught a two-three combo. 00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:22.160 Um, my God, that makes you get organized when you have when you're doing two grade levels at once and trying to follow two sets of standards. 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:23.759 Uh, that was a lot. 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:27.839 But um, third grade and fourth grade, oh man, the sweet spot. 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:32.480 Yeah, I really love um third grade, is what I taught the most. 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:37.199 And it they're just so full of life and enthusiastic at that age. 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:41.519 I love I love that ties back to your origin stories with education, too. 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:53.519 That you fell in love with your teacher when you were in third grade, and then it was a totally different story in seventh grade, which as a middle school teacher right now, I can attest that like the vibes are definitely different. 00:05:53.680 --> 00:06:01.920 So um oh my god, I love that, and how you came back kind of it's like a homecoming coming back to uh teaching in third grade and fourth grade. 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:10.480 Um so at what point did you start to find yourself doing more work that was queer-centered? 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:22.560 Well, I to address that question, I'd like to talk about my my terrible um lack of support and awareness before that. 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:33.680 Um I used to the, you know, I've always been supportive, I've always considered myself an ally, but I I was very quiet about things in the classroom. 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:55.600 And I was um, you know, if if kids would get mad at each other and one of them would say, you're gay, my methodology of addressing that was to chew out the kid who had, you know, used that as um a slur, as punishment, and just gotten really mad at that kid and said, We never say that. 00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:06.079 And that was not um, as you know, you know, and I'm sure all your listeners know, that is not the supportive way and inclusive way to be. 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:18.480 And then at some point, one of my former students, um, I mean, there were certainly students along the way that I thought, oh, this child is, you know, probably gonna realize later that they're gay and, you know, queer. 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:37.600 Um, but then one year, one of my former students came out when she was in sixth grade, and I saw that her, and the way that I knew that was her mother posted on Facebook, you know, my daughter is, you know, came out and she, the mother was so full of love. 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:45.600 And um, you know, over a hundred people were just posting rainbows and, you know, hearts and waterfalls and just happiness. 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:50.480 And I was thinking, oh my God, what did I say that year? 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:52.319 Was I supportive enough? 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:56.000 Did I did I help her know that things were okay? 00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:58.079 What what did I say? 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:01.600 And I realized I shouldn't have to ask myself that. 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:05.199 I shouldn't have to ask myself if I was supportive enough. 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:10.160 Um, because if I'm asking myself that, that means I haven't always been. 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:15.519 So I just decided, I made a commitment that I was just gonna be more vocal. 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:28.959 And um, it also really helped me when I went to a union um awards event, and uh somebody who had gotten a human rights award, I really feel like he was talking to me. 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:34.399 He said, um, it's really not as complicated as a lot of people make it. 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:45.519 Um, you know, especially I think in elementary, you just don't go into as much detail in things, but he said, get a book, read it, talk about it, write about it. 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.639 And I went, Oh, I can do that. 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:56.799 And so um, yeah, ever since I had that young person, um, I committed to be more vocal. 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:05.200 And I also asked, I also um contacted some of my queer friends and I posted on Facebook, what do you wish your third grade teacher had said? 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:15.360 Um and I also went to um, I loved the name of this group, the the middle school that was closest to me. 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:19.759 Um, they had a, you know, some places call them Rainbow Club, Unity Club, whatever. 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:24.320 And theirs was called Glow, um, gay lesbian or whatever. 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:26.720 And I just I thought that was great. 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:38.960 Um, but I I asked if I could go to one of their meetings, and it was really cool because I saw some of my former students in there, and I asked them, I said, what do you think a third grade teacher should do and say? 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:40.960 Um, because I want to be better. 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:47.919 And um, some of the things they told me were so simple that they just broke my heart. 00:09:48.159 --> 00:10:03.919 Um, like one of them was, oh, just have like a little sign outside your door, like a little piece of paper, maybe like with a rainbow on it, just like something saying that it giving the idea that it it's a safe place to be. 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:11.440 Um, and one kid wanted a little box in the office where kids who were feeling unsafe could write a note and just put it in. 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:15.360 And I thought, oh my God, it it's so simple. 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:24.879 Um, which only underscores the lack of openness and the lack of visible open support. 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:39.600 Um yeah, so that's a kind of a long answer to your question, but yeah, I'm really grateful to that mom who posted about her daughter on Facebook because that was really a turning point for me. 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:41.200 Absolutely. 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:47.679 And I think what you're saying is is very impactful, especially for those who are like, how do I do this? 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:55.679 And right now we're, you know, uh it's weird to say that the times are worse than maybe even in the 90s. 00:10:55.840 --> 00:11:09.759 Um but in some places that is the case because there are there's actual legislation that restricts what you can and cannot do in a classroom, and that includes that that sign with a rainbow on it and whatnot. 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:18.240 And it's such a small signal, such a small thing to just let someone know that you are a safe person to speak with. 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:28.559 And I think that's what drives me nuts the most about all of this legislation is that like if it's not for you, it's not for you, and that's fine, but everything doesn't have to be for you. 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:29.679 Yes. 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:34.799 Uh there are things in the world that are made for other people, and that's okay. 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:38.080 So if the sign doesn't apply to you, then that's fine. 00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:48.720 But like to say that we can't have the sign because it doesn't apply to the majority of people is is kind of asinine. 00:11:48.960 --> 00:12:05.759 Uh and there and there's such a lack of understanding of people who get upset about things that don't apply to them, there's such a lack of understanding that, all right, well, people who live closer to the margins so much does not apply to them. 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:12.480 So why is it okay that they are so often dealing with things that don't include them? 00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:22.159 But then you have a straight white cisgender kid who maybe a few things don't directly apply to them and people get all worked up. 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:32.159 Yeah, it's a really lack of empathy and it's a lack of extending your thinking just a little bit to think about, well, what about other people? 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:34.159 Yeah, absolutely. 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:39.600 I tend to go on a sidetrack with this, but I will make it as brief as possible. 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:49.120 But I think that music education has had a really good marketing team for so many years, um, and music education has gotten a lot of support in very in many places. 00:12:49.279 --> 00:13:01.679 Where I wish that things would have happened differently is for theater education to get as much support because theater is a place where you can learn that empathy that a lot of people are lacking, and it's also why things are under attack. 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:09.840 Theater uh is one of the most litigated pieces of legislat like of art, like one of the most litigated art forms. 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:18.960 It started its litigation process in like 1680 in the United States, well before the you know, before the United States, but on the in the colonies. 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:33.759 And so like I think about the fact that as a theater educator, I'm teaching people to step in the shoes of somebody else, and how that impacts their uh personality. 00:13:33.919 --> 00:14:26.720 And the students who really take to theater, I I look at them and I see the empathy when they're working with their peers, and I see the empathy when they're working with other people, and then I see a lack of that in other spaces, and so I really wish um, you know, side note out there, we need a better marketing team and more funding for theater education because I really do believe that it has the ability to impact humanity, and and I think a combination of those two things would be ideal music and theater education, K through 12, either back and forth or as you know, half a year and half a year, or whatever the situation is until you know middle school or high school when you could choose, but like really teaching kids um what it's like to um step into the foot of somebody else, step into the shoes of somebody else, and and really kind of go on that journey with them is so impactful. 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:28.159 Yeah, I love that. 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:44.639 And I I can't believe maybe it's because of being elementary, but so we don't really, you know, readers theater a few times, but I've never thought of course theater would would lead to a growth in empathy. 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:46.799 They're practicing it constantly. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:57.919 This is one of those things when when I remember that I'm retired, I go, oh um, that, you know, as soon as you started talking, I was like, oh, do more theater with the kids. 00:14:58.000 --> 00:14:59.840 And then, oh crap, I'm retired. 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:02.000 I'm not working anymore. 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:05.440 Not the oh crap, I'm not working anymore. 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:15.600 So um, in our an email conversation, you had mentioned um drag story hours and some experiences that you had there. 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:25.200 I'd love to talk about those to give some folks some more context and also to share some realistic experience about what things are like out there right now. 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:26.080 Yeah. 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:43.039 Um, so like I said earlier, I live in California in the Bay Area, which you know most people think of as oh, everybody's, you know, running through meadows of daisies and um California sunshine, and it's all liberal and hippie. 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:46.960 Streets are paved in gold and there's rainbows every day. 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.159 Um, and you know, some of that is true, but most of it is not. 00:15:52.320 --> 00:16:02.559 But um, so the school district I taught in for the last 27 years of my career was San Lorenzo, and some people might notice that that sounds a little familiar. 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:11.759 In during Pride Month of 2022 at the San Lorenzo Library, um, Proud Boys invaded drag story hour. 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:27.919 And um when I heard about that, I was really upset because that school, I mean, I was just really upset, period, but it really hit home because that school was a short walk from the school where I taught for all those years. 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:30.399 And so I was just kind of obsessed. 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:38.399 And a day or two after it happened, I just was reading Facebook comments on the county sheriff's page. 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:43.600 And I wanted to see what the community thought, even though I was kind of scared to find out what they thought. 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:54.559 Um, and most of the comments were people who live in San Lorenzo and they were horrified at what had happened because it was really um a terrifying event. 00:16:54.720 --> 00:17:01.200 Um, there were there were men who came in, you know, and this is this is drag story hour. 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:12.079 So the kids are little and their parents had to sign up in advance um for them to be allowed to come, and they had to, kids who were there, they they had to be with a parent. 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:17.440 So it wasn't like any random kids could run in off the street. 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:29.119 And um anyway, the the yeah, there were men wearing AK-47s on their shirts that said kill your local pedophile. 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:36.880 Um, they were screaming at kids, and this is um June of 22, so it was still kind of pandemic-y. 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:51.119 And um, one little kid, a one librarian told me, because I interviewed several librarians who worked there, and um, one librarian told me that she heard a little kid saying, Mommy, why was that man calling us sick? 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:53.759 We had our masks on and he didn't. 00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:01.440 Um, you know, librarians were worried that they were gonna hear gunshots at any moment while they were calling 911. 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:13.759 Um, when the Proud Boys took the protests out to the street, there was a neighbor who told a librarian, um, I left the South to get away from the KKK. 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:15.920 This is the KKK right here. 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:23.359 So when I was reading the Facebook page, you know, most of the comments from people were like, Oh my God, this is not our community. 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:24.319 How could this happen? 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:25.119 This is terrible. 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.519 Let people live, let people be who they are. 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:33.200 But every once in a while there was a comment that usually had the word protect or protection. 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:35.759 And I was like, we need to protect kids. 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:38.400 And I just kept thinking, from what? 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.200 What are you afraid is gonna happen? 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:47.359 What how do you how do you view terrorizing children as protecting kids? 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:53.519 And the more I thought about it, the more I thought, they're talking about straight white cisgender kids. 00:18:54.319 --> 00:19:03.759 Straight white cisgender people who they they don't want to pollute their sacred children, you know, with with anything else. 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.839 And so um I did some local activism. 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:12.000 I did a one-woman prot uh demonstration in front of the library. 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:24.079 Um, I made signs with glitter and rainbows and talked about beauty in all colors, and um ended up being interviewed on TV, wrote an op-ed in the San Francisco Chronicle. 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:26.640 And then I just decided I wanted to do more. 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:45.519 So I ended up, since I had just retired, I decided to start traveling California and interviewing teachers and librarians about what it's like to teach in the climate we were in in 2022, and now that we are in, except it's worse. 00:19:46.000 --> 00:20:01.599 So um, yeah, that was kind of how a terrible drag story hour um launched me into this project that I I I hadn't thought about beforehand, and I just decided to do it. 00:21:05.430 --> 00:21:06.069 Absolutely. 00:21:06.230 --> 00:21:10.470 So, can you tell us a little bit about your book and maybe some of the stories that were shared with you? 00:21:10.710 --> 00:21:11.110 Sure. 00:21:11.750 --> 00:21:20.710 Um the book is called Push to the Edge, and then the subtitle is uh Teachers Stories from the Culture Wars. 00:21:21.190 --> 00:21:45.430 And um the stories, as your listeners would probably know, um the stories that were told to me mostly had to do with LGBTQ plus people, um, but there were also stories of um communities where the the school board, which had been flipped to Christian nationalist, where um they were trying to block the teaching of black history. 00:21:45.590 --> 00:21:50.870 So, you know, blocking critical race theory means blocking black uh black history. 00:21:51.110 --> 00:22:13.190 And I also heard some stories of librarians who were targeted um for their book collection um because they dared to have books with, you know, queer characters or um black civil rights leaders or um yeah, just rainbows on the cover, you know. 00:22:13.509 --> 00:22:17.350 Um so those were the kinds of stories I heard. 00:22:17.430 --> 00:22:38.950 And the way I even found people to interview, I went to the California Department of Education website and just did copy for the list of almost a thousand school districts, copy-paste, put it into a big old spreadsheet, got out a map of California, and just started saying, All right, I want to go way up north, I'll send an email to these school districts. 00:22:39.110 --> 00:22:42.870 I want to go in the mountains, I'll send one to these school districts. 00:22:43.110 --> 00:22:53.190 And I just started saying, I I went overboard on telling them that I was on their side and that, you know, I showed them the way I write about kids. 00:22:53.350 --> 00:23:01.910 I gave them my website, I gave them a copy of the op ed I wrote, I told them about the Proud Boys, and I told them they'd be anonymous. 00:23:02.069 --> 00:23:07.750 And I said, Anybody who has a story to tell, I will travel to you if you're willing to tell it. 00:23:08.150 --> 00:23:14.150 So one of the stories was, oh my God, this poor woman. 00:23:14.309 --> 00:23:30.230 Um, she was targeted by a pastor who dared to call himself Christian, um, who had um, you know, he was white, um, and he had raised a bunch of money and started a PAC. 00:23:30.470 --> 00:23:53.430 And so with the money from the Political Action Committee, he funded school board races in the area in multiple districts where he lives, got several districts to flip the school board to be majority Christian nationalists, and um, and then they they went after teachers who showed support to queer kids. 00:23:53.750 --> 00:23:57.990 And this one woman um was she really got it bad. 00:23:58.069 --> 00:24:17.269 Uh, she herself is queer, and um he found something I think one of the teachers in her district had forwarded to him something that she had put in a private Facebook group about meet having a meeting of queer teachers just for community. 00:24:17.430 --> 00:24:25.110 And so she sent it to the pastor, and the pastor called her out by name, the school where she teaches, he doxed her. 00:24:25.350 --> 00:24:47.990 Um, I think he published her phone number um on this video podcast that that get, I think it got 120,000 views, and then there were people, you know, the death threats, the um people saying they're gonna camp out in front of her house and stone her, like in biblical times. 00:24:48.230 --> 00:24:50.710 So, and she was fierce. 00:24:50.870 --> 00:24:55.190 That that is something that really showed up in these stories. 00:24:55.430 --> 00:25:09.590 It wasn't people who it wasn't people who were so traumatized and terrified and had been um pushed into submission. 00:25:09.990 --> 00:25:16.309 It was people who, even though there were people who were deeply traumatized, they wanted to tell their story. 00:25:16.630 --> 00:25:30.230 And a few of the people I interviewed have left education, but for them that was a move of strength because they were like reclaiming, you know, their their dignity and they their refusal to be silenced. 00:25:30.630 --> 00:25:33.990 But other people, they they stayed. 00:25:34.230 --> 00:25:40.230 One another one I want to talk about is um a person, I didn't email this person. 00:25:40.470 --> 00:25:45.990 I read about them in um a curated California newsletter that I get every day. 00:25:46.069 --> 00:25:55.830 And it was like teacher down in this central valley town had hundreds show up at a board meeting clamoring for the firing, you know, of this person. 00:25:55.990 --> 00:26:18.710 And so I read about what they had done, and it was to be interviewed by the New York Times, where, you know, they the New York Times interviewed tons of people around the country, tons of teachers, and said, um, do you think parents, uh teachers should be forced to out uh queer kids to their, yeah, to their families. 00:26:18.950 --> 00:26:21.990 So this teacher said no. 00:26:22.710 --> 00:26:32.950 And then they said, um, some kids, they they said a lot of things, but the part the New York Times quoted was some kids need to be protected from their families. 00:26:33.269 --> 00:26:37.750 Now, most teachers who hear that nod, you know, like, uh-huh. 00:26:37.990 --> 00:26:48.870 We've all known kids who need to be protected from their families, but the kid they live in a very um, a very conservative community. 00:26:49.190 --> 00:26:55.029 And um there was quite the outcry and you know, the death threats. 00:26:55.110 --> 00:26:59.830 And and I reached out on social media and said, I'm doing this thing. 00:26:59.910 --> 00:27:04.789 I'll write down your story if you would like to talk to me, but mostly I just want you to know you're not alone. 00:27:04.870 --> 00:27:09.990 You know, I'm talking to other people who are doing what you're doing, you know, yay, you. 00:27:10.309 --> 00:27:13.509 And they wrote back and said, Um, I can't talk to you right now. 00:27:13.590 --> 00:27:16.630 I'm too traumatized from you know what has happened. 00:27:16.870 --> 00:27:21.910 Well, a year later, both of us are hundreds of miles from where we live. 00:27:22.150 --> 00:27:27.990 We're at a statewide union human rights award banquet for one of my former colleagues. 00:27:28.150 --> 00:27:35.430 And I noticed my my former colleague standing across the banquet room looking at me, talking to someone else, and they were both smiling at me. 00:27:35.590 --> 00:27:38.470 And I went over to the other person that said, Do I know you? 00:27:38.710 --> 00:27:40.150 And then they just kept smiling. 00:27:40.230 --> 00:27:42.870 And my friend said, They recognize you from Facebook. 00:27:43.029 --> 00:27:48.069 And I looked at the name tag and we both just kind of screamed and threw our arms around each other. 00:27:48.309 --> 00:28:02.950 And that person, after they rose up out of their trauma, um, decided to go get their PhD in I can't remember the exact thing, but it's like educational leadership supporting queer educators. 00:28:03.269 --> 00:28:14.870 And what a joyous, full circle, um growing beauty out of seeds of despair, you know. 00:28:15.190 --> 00:28:25.990 So I heard lots of things that were depressing, but I also heard lots of things that were inspiring and have I've continued to hear those stories as I travel around talking about the book. 00:28:26.150 --> 00:28:30.470 I continue to have educators telling me remarkable things. 00:28:31.110 --> 00:28:32.150 I love that so much. 00:28:32.309 --> 00:28:34.630 What a great story, and also a full circle moment. 00:28:34.710 --> 00:28:43.750 I've had those moments um podcast-wise and nonprofit-wise, where I've been at a conference and someone walks over and they're like, I know you. 00:28:43.830 --> 00:28:45.670 And I'm like, Do I know you? 00:28:45.910 --> 00:28:49.590 They're like, oh, I know you from this podcast. 00:28:49.830 --> 00:28:56.789 Um but I love stories like that, and it's funny because you keep talking about this, and I'm like, I want to talk to all these people. 00:28:56.950 --> 00:29:05.269 Um, because that's my favorite thing about the podcast is being able to just listen to people tell their story. 00:29:05.590 --> 00:29:16.870 Um so you mentioned earlier that you went to, you know, uh an awards banquet, and someone said, you know, it's it's really quite simple. 00:29:17.190 --> 00:29:20.069 Read a book, talk about it, write about it. 00:29:20.390 --> 00:29:38.789 So if you uh are you know talking directly to allies who are looking to support students and their fellow queer educators, like to support queer educators, what are some things or books that maybe you've used in the past to kind of start guiding conversations? 00:29:40.950 --> 00:29:41.590 Yes. 00:29:42.069 --> 00:29:48.309 Um one of the books that I used, let me see if I can come up with the name. 00:29:48.470 --> 00:30:05.110 It was a local author who I met, I can't even remember how I met her, but she wrote about her son, um, who when he was in kindergarten um had a dream of being uh a purple princess in the Halloween parade. 00:30:05.350 --> 00:30:13.910 And so she wrote a book about going to the thrift store and buying a purple shower curtain and sewing the, you know, the garb. 00:30:13.990 --> 00:30:23.430 And so I read that book to kids, and the um, you know, it doesn't say anything about the child being trans. 00:30:23.590 --> 00:30:26.789 It turned out that as an adult, he decided he's gay. 00:30:26.950 --> 00:30:28.950 Um, so he's not trans. 00:30:29.269 --> 00:30:35.830 Um, but it was such a lovely, it's called um one of a kind like me. 00:30:36.390 --> 00:30:38.870 And it was a very gentle book. 00:30:39.029 --> 00:30:47.990 A book that I read every year in my classroom after I um became more vocal is The Penguin Book, um, that a lot of people probably know about. 00:30:48.630 --> 00:30:49.830 We love Tango. 00:30:50.150 --> 00:30:51.190 Oh my God. 00:30:51.350 --> 00:30:58.950 And the people who want who get upset and want to ban, it's like it's a true story of penguins. 00:30:59.110 --> 00:31:01.269 Like, calm down, everybody. 00:31:01.509 --> 00:31:17.430 Um, but I think, especially, you know, third grade, my my sweet spot, um it's perfect for young elementary just introducing an idea that sometimes it can be two males, two females. 00:31:17.910 --> 00:31:18.870 Doesn't matter. 00:31:19.110 --> 00:31:28.069 Because even though they kind of get some of the kids get a little oh, when you get to the part where the zookeeper says, I think they must be in love. 00:31:28.549 --> 00:31:39.910 Um then, you know, a few of the kids get a little giggly, and then by the end of the book, everybody is just rooting for little tango, and everybody's cheering. 00:31:40.230 --> 00:31:41.830 It is the sweetest book. 00:31:41.990 --> 00:31:54.230 I had one child, um, when I read that book, I said, when I was done reading it, I said, Um, does anybody, did that book make anybody think of anything, you know, that you'd like to share? 00:31:54.390 --> 00:32:00.390 And this very shy little girl just blurted out, I have two moms. 00:32:01.029 --> 00:32:07.029 And I knew that one of her moms is trans, the the mother had told me before. 00:32:07.269 --> 00:32:15.830 And, you know, obviously the tango book is not about being trans, but it's like she finally had permission to just say, This is who I am. 00:32:16.710 --> 00:32:19.750 That was something that was a little heartbreaking too. 00:32:19.830 --> 00:32:21.350 Like she was so shy. 00:32:21.590 --> 00:32:24.069 And a book about penguins. 00:32:25.110 --> 00:32:31.590 She could see something that I was giving her permission to be, you know, to celebrate her family. 00:32:31.830 --> 00:32:34.069 Another book that I love is so simple. 00:32:34.150 --> 00:32:37.430 It's for young elementary families, families, families. 00:32:37.750 --> 00:32:40.390 Do you know that book by Suzanne Lang? 00:32:40.549 --> 00:32:41.190 I think. 00:32:41.830 --> 00:32:42.470 I don't. 00:32:42.870 --> 00:32:48.470 Yeah, it's I mean, you're middle school, they they would laugh, but it's just animal illustrations. 00:32:48.710 --> 00:33:00.230 Um, and it says, you know, some families have one adult, some families have two moms, some families have, you know, people of different races. 00:33:00.309 --> 00:33:06.069 And it just, there's only a few words on each page, and the the illustrations are just silly and fun. 00:33:06.549 --> 00:33:13.029 Um, and yeah, at the at the San Lorenzo Library, going back to that, what happened? 00:33:13.190 --> 00:33:26.230 Um, the person in drag, Panda Dulce, um after after the horribleness, went back and finished drag story hour and read that book by Suzanne Lang. 00:33:26.309 --> 00:33:34.069 And one of the librarians heard a little kid when it got to the page where some kids um are raised by their grandparents. 00:33:34.230 --> 00:33:38.789 Oh, this little kid just goes, Hey, that looks like my family. 00:33:39.029 --> 00:33:40.950 And I'm like, that's the dream. 00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:45.670 Um, for them all to see themselves, you know, in the pages of a book. 00:33:45.910 --> 00:33:55.670 Um, I also recently met um an author of middle grade um books, and his name is Michael Liali. 00:33:55.990 --> 00:33:57.830 I've only read one of his books. 00:33:57.990 --> 00:34:03.029 Um, and the one I read is called The Trouble with Triangles. 00:34:03.350 --> 00:34:10.549 And um, one of the characters is gay, and he's wondering if another of the characters is gay. 00:34:10.869 --> 00:34:14.949 And that book, of course, has been banned in like 13 states. 00:34:15.429 --> 00:34:17.110 Um because yeah. 00:34:17.349 --> 00:34:26.549 Um, and I read it cover to cover, and I I was taking notes, and while I was reading it, I just thought, why the hell would anybody have a problem with this? 00:34:26.869 --> 00:34:39.590 It's it's such a tender, gentle book that's about a kid who worries about adult things, and he happens to be gay, and he's not sure how to have guy friends because he hasn't really done that before. 00:34:39.670 --> 00:34:41.190 You know, it's just so sweet. 00:34:41.349 --> 00:34:43.670 So there's so many great books out there. 00:34:43.909 --> 00:34:45.989 Those are just a few that I know of. 00:34:46.309 --> 00:34:54.469 I love how you describe that, a kid worrying about adult things, because as a parent of a middle schooler and as a middle school teacher, I see that a lot also. 00:34:54.710 --> 00:34:58.150 Kids worrying about adult things, where I'm like, you don't have to worry about that right now. 00:34:58.309 --> 00:34:58.469 Yeah. 00:34:58.710 --> 00:35:02.309 You shouldn't have you shouldn't have to have that weight on your shoulders. 00:35:02.549 --> 00:35:07.909 Um, and so I feel like that's so relevant to you know reality at the moment. 00:35:07.989 --> 00:35:14.549 I feel like kids are so much more tuned into the world than I ever was when I was their age. 00:35:14.869 --> 00:35:20.389 Um and those worrying about adult things happen more and more every day. 00:35:20.789 --> 00:35:27.269 Yeah, he was worrying about his parents fight all the time, and he was worried, oh no, are they gonna split up? 00:35:27.429 --> 00:35:29.269 I have to keep them together. 00:35:29.589 --> 00:35:38.949 And he's worried about um the family business, a pizza place going out of business, and he's like, I have to save the family business. 00:35:39.189 --> 00:35:47.349 And that's what the book is about is him learning there's pain, but we can't always fix it. 00:35:47.509 --> 00:35:55.909 And you're a kid, just just worry about kid, don't even worry, just just be a kid and let the grown-ups do the hard things. 00:35:56.069 --> 00:35:59.029 Yeah, it was it was a really sweet book. 00:35:59.349 --> 00:36:00.309 I love that. 00:36:00.629 --> 00:36:03.429 As we round out, I have two questions for you. 00:36:03.589 --> 00:36:03.909 Yes. 00:36:04.149 --> 00:36:07.269 Um, the first is what is bringing you joy right now? 00:36:07.429 --> 00:36:13.909 I love to end with some joy, especially with all the terrible things we see uh happening around the world. 00:36:15.669 --> 00:36:30.069 Um, my book was published about a month and a half ago, and I'm I'm going around doing live events, and I get so high afterwards that I can I can hardly contain myself. 00:36:30.389 --> 00:36:31.829 The people I'm meeting. 00:36:31.989 --> 00:36:35.189 I'm there's a lot of the world's colliding kind of thing. 00:36:35.429 --> 00:36:48.710 Um, you know, I met people out in the desert a few nights ago, and we're just hugging each other afterwards, feeling united, even though we never knew each other, might never see each other again. 00:36:48.949 --> 00:36:57.509 Just feeling commonality and unity of purpose and the strength of community. 00:36:57.750 --> 00:37:02.069 So my husband keeps telling me, I'm watching you create a universe. 00:37:02.230 --> 00:37:08.629 This is what it's like to create a universe because you keep connecting with other people and they connect you with more people. 00:37:08.789 --> 00:37:15.269 So being connected with people doing good work is bringing me joy every day. 00:37:15.829 --> 00:37:16.869 I love that so much. 00:37:17.109 --> 00:37:22.710 Before I ask my last question, because I always end with this question, I want to do a short plug of your book again. 00:37:22.869 --> 00:37:30.149 So can you tell us um the title of your book and where where's the most lucrative for us to buy it from you? 00:37:30.789 --> 00:37:35.989 Um, the title is Push to the Edge Teachers Stories from the Culture Wars. 00:37:36.149 --> 00:37:38.149 It's not all heavy heavy. 00:37:38.309 --> 00:37:43.189 Uh there's, I mean, it is, but but I also there's some levity in there too. 00:37:43.429 --> 00:37:47.909 Um and any, I mean, it's in all the places. 00:37:48.069 --> 00:37:50.549 It's um it's in any independent bookstore. 00:37:50.629 --> 00:37:53.589 If they don't have it on the shelf, they can order it. 00:37:53.829 --> 00:37:59.669 Um, I don't buy things on Amazon anymore, but for people who do, it's on Amazon. 00:37:59.750 --> 00:38:10.389 It's on bookshop.org, which is kind of like an alternative to Amazon, and it gives the um profits, it shares the profits with independent bookstores. 00:38:10.629 --> 00:38:14.869 So um, yeah, it anywhere that they sell books, they can order it. 00:38:15.029 --> 00:38:15.829 Libraries. 00:38:16.389 --> 00:38:16.869 I love it. 00:38:16.949 --> 00:38:19.029 I'm a huge proponent of bookshop.org. 00:38:19.109 --> 00:38:24.789 So if you find find it there, uh you can support a local bookshop and and the funds will go. 00:38:24.869 --> 00:38:27.989 Um, you know, some of the funds will go to your local bookshop. 00:38:28.069 --> 00:38:29.589 So I I love that. 00:38:29.829 --> 00:38:37.029 Um last question What is something that you want to share right now with queer educators? 00:38:37.189 --> 00:38:39.509 What is your final message to them? 00:38:39.589 --> 00:38:42.789 Uh, you know, knowing the times that we're living in. 00:38:50.789 --> 00:39:08.389 That some straight cisgender educators are trying to get better um at not forcing you to do all the work of orienting people to be an inclusive, supportive educator. 00:39:08.710 --> 00:39:32.230 Um, just like it can't be up to black people to educate white people about racism, it can't be up to queer educators to go through all the torment that, you know, they can go through to teach non-queer educators how to be more inclusive. 00:39:32.549 --> 00:39:46.149 And a number of the stories in the book are about straight cisgender people who went through a lot because they are so committed to providing a truly inclusive education. 00:39:46.389 --> 00:39:58.710 And um, so I guess that's what I would want to say is I realize it should not be up to you, and more non-queer educators are starting to realize that also. 00:40:02.549 --> 00:40:05.349 Thank you for being a part of Queering Education. 00:40:05.509 --> 00:40:07.909 This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast. 00:40:08.069 --> 00:40:13.109 Take what you need from this conversation and bring it back into your classroom and your students. 00:40:13.349 --> 00:40:14.789 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:40:14.949 --> 00:40:17.750 Until next time, keep showing up.