WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.000 In short, I became the teacher that I never saw. 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:13.919 Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be. 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:15.439 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:23.519 This is a Teaching While Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom. 00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:25.679 Alright, let's do the work. 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:32.159 Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Queering Education, a Teaching While Queer podcast. 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:33.600 My name is Brian Stanton. 00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:34.240 I am your host. 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:35.439 My pronouns are they, them. 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:36.880 Today I'm joined by Joe. 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:42.079 Hey Joe, can you do me a favor and introduce yourself to everybody who's listening? 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:45.759 I would love to and thank you so much for having me here today. 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:47.520 My name is Joe Shinachis. 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:48.880 My pronouns are he, him. 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:51.520 I identify as a queer or gay man. 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:56.320 I'm I'm from Peoria, Illinois, and I've been teaching for over 25 years. 00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:01.039 I spent the first 10 years of my career as a high school English teacher. 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:07.920 And for the last 15 plus, I've been a full-time professor, primarily at my local community college here in Peoria. 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:12.400 So shout out to Illinois Central College, where I'm full-time in communication. 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:26.640 I love that you're coming with a breadth of experience. 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:34.319 I particularly love your work in community college, namely because as a young person, when I was in Southern California, community colleges were like everywhere. 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:39.599 And it wasn't until I moved to other states that I realized that they're not necessarily as common as I thought. 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:53.439 So I really love when I talk to folks in community college spaces because I'm like, it's such a necessary step and such a necessary place that I wish like when I was living in Texas, there really weren't community colleges. 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.840 It's like you went to university and that that was the only option available to you. 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:01.920 There were some vac vocational schools, but they weren't quite the same. 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:12.800 Um so I love community college spaces uh just because of the accessibility aspect of things, it makes educational our education truly accessible to folks. 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:34.800 Um you know, yeah, like I love universities, don't get me wrong, but they are a world unto themselves where we could lean into the community college approach and kind of say, like, this is a chance to say why queer students and queer representation matter so much because we're not just an institution onto itself, we are a part of the community and we want to represent that fully, yeah. 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:36.240 Yeah, absolutely. 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:44.240 And I do think that there's a lot of like placing in boxes um the different realms of education. 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:56.319 Uh the podcast recently changed from teaching while queer to queering education, and part of that was because we were getting a lot of feedback from folks that were like, uh, you know, does this include higher education? 00:02:56.479 --> 00:02:58.960 And I'm like, why wouldn't it include higher education? 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:00.240 Because we're all teaching. 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:03.840 It's not like we're going into the classroom professing, right? 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.039 You may be a professor, but you're not professing, you're teaching. 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:13.280 So I'm confused that the terminology, for some reason, people think teaching and they're like K through 12. 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:20.319 And that also gave them the vibe of like creating a hierarchy of structure. 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:42.960 Um, and I read some really interesting thought pieces recently on LinkedIn, just some articles that people were sharing on LinkedIn about like the hierarchy that exists in academia and how it is actually detrimental to educators, because we think that, you know, in order to have clout or whatever, that we have to be professors. 00:03:43.199 --> 00:04:05.439 Um, when in fact we can have, in some cases, a better work-life balance, a better um paycheck working in K through 12 spaces, but like that space has been so uh demeaned by politics politicization that it is uh is looked down upon. 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:08.000 It is weird to think of it that way. 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:15.439 I mean, and and similarly, I even encounter that in the community college space with other higher ed institutions. 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:26.160 Uh, you know, there there was even, this has never been said to me, but one of my colleagues told me when she introduced herself as a professor at a community college to someone who was at a higher level institution. 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:28.879 They even said something like, You're not really a professor. 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:34.160 And I'm like, Oh, oh, well, yeah, there's just no need for that kind of drama whatsoever. 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:40.560 Uh, K-12 teachers, I I think are doing honestly the hardest work. 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:43.040 Um, it's much more demanding on your schedule. 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:50.240 And again, being there for I look back on the first decade of my life and think, um, I don't know how I survived. 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:54.800 I think I lived at the high school, and but it was an important, wonderful experience. 00:04:54.959 --> 00:05:01.680 And I think almost every college educator should have some public school experience, particularly high school level. 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:05.519 You learn how to motivate and discipline and actually teach. 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:15.040 We run into a stereotype sometimes where it's like you find these really smart professors who aren't so great at articulating what they know. 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:16.720 Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:30.240 I've definitely ran into that and would love to see more folks who end up in higher education having some sort of classroom management class or uh or even um basic lesson planning. 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:46.240 Um, because you're right, there's a difference between understanding your content and understanding how to explain your content to somebody else and doing it in a structured way where multiple people with different uh ability levels understand equally. 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:46.879 Yeah. 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:58.240 I love teaching an introductory level course at the college level because to me it is a chance to say, yes, I'm a subject matter expert, but let me communicate this in a way to someone who knows nothing about it. 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:03.040 Let me try to get you inspired to learn, inspired to want to be at college. 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:11.199 And I want to know how to be able to reach the students who come in with uh from all sorts of different backgrounds and with the ability to meet them where they are. 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:22.720 It is ironic to me, I see at our college, and this is true at most higher ed institutions, you do not need an ex a degree in education or certificates that have helped you become a better teacher. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:24.079 You need to know your subject. 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:28.800 So you get hired, and then you start taking faculty development program training. 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:33.360 And I I love I'm a mentor to our new faculty, and I love being a part of that program. 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:36.079 It's probably my favorite thing outside of the classroom. 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:40.240 Um, but I always think like, I feel like we're starting a couple days too late. 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:43.519 Like we need to start this as early as possible, uh, always. 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:45.360 And and then so those experiences are great. 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:45.839 Yes. 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:46.720 Absolutely. 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:51.199 Front loading is is ideal when you're going into an educational space. 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:58.639 Um, let's talk a little bit about how you see your queerness and how queerness shows up in your work in education. 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:14.560 I like to the these last few years, uh, the way I sometimes explain it is I took a little lesson from Bob the drag queen, uh, and I come in purse first, metaphorically speaking, and I introduced myself day one as a queer educator. 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:16.160 I wasn't always out. 00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:23.920 When I first started teaching, again, 25 plus years ago, I taught at a very small conservative school. 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:29.279 Uh, and I was very guarded, I was very protected of who I was. 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:37.920 And I was always so nervous that I was gonna, I'm gonna be the gay teacher who offends some uh, I don't know, small town kid. 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:40.639 And I don't mean to be stereotypical, but then they're gonna go complain. 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:42.000 I'm gonna have this big battle. 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:45.600 I used to have all these anxieties in my mind for all of that, you know? 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:47.920 And then one day it shifted. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:56.560 And and particularly once I started teaching at the college level, I mean, day one, I'm like, I need to be the person that I always know I can be, always needed to be and want to be. 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:58.560 And I need to stop being so guarded. 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:07.279 I like to explain it this way it's not that I'm trying to make my straight students uncomfortable, but I need to be there for my queer students. 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:17.920 We, you know, when I think what led me into education, and one of the big motivating factors in becoming out in the classroom and sharing my experiences was I didn't see anybody like me. 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:26.800 I went through all of grade school, high school, and all of college as a student with no openly gay or out professors, at least none that I knew of at that time, right? 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:29.839 And that's pretty common, I suppose, for someone my age. 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:32.399 Um, and that's what needs to change. 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:40.320 You know, as a student sitting in the back corner, I compare those first couple of years of me teaching at the small town conservative school. 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:48.080 And I wonder, would I have made a difference for the queer kids I had had those first couple of years, if I had been a little braver, if I and and what would it take? 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:53.120 And I don't want to point fingers because it's really up to coming up with our own internal strength, right? 00:08:53.279 --> 00:09:03.120 But I like to think as a younger person, if I had seen queer educators being successful and joyful and visible, then it would have been a lot easier for me to do that too. 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:12.240 And so that's the battle that I think a lot of queer professionals have is what's safe to reveal with ourselves in those environments and in education in particular. 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:19.279 You know, I'm I'm trying to protect a professional career, but then at some point it turns and it says, wait a minute, what why am I doing this though? 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:25.279 I, if I'm not doing this for the right reasons and for the right people, then I shouldn't be here in this classroom in the first place. 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:29.120 So, in short, I became the teacher that I never saw. 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:47.440 I I said, I need to be the person that I always needed at my most vulnerable when I could have used a queer person up here talking, you know, every day of my life I went through teachers talking about their spouses, you know, heterosexual relationships, you know, here's what the wife was doing, here's what the kids were doing today. 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:56.720 And all I ever thought to myself was how awesome it would be to normalize that with a man's husband, or you know, you know what I'm saying? 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:01.360 Like come in and talk to me about your experiences in your lives and make that normal as well. 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:02.960 And that's what I'm doing today. 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:15.519 So I I don't come when I say I come in purse first, I just I introduce myself as a married man and I show pictures of my husband whose name is also Brian, uh, and I put him up on the screen, and he's gorgeous, so it's a great visual aid. 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:21.120 And and you know, I I don't try to talk about it in any way, I hope that makes people uncomfortable. 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:32.320 I just we are I want to be a visible representation of success and joy and professionalism through a queer lens for everyone, and that's really what matters the most. 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:33.279 Absolutely. 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:39.679 I think what you're talking about is so basic, and yet a lot of people have such strong opinions about it. 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:45.200 Like I've gotten into arguments because sometimes I get arguments with people on, you know, in the comment sections. 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.919 Um, just I definitely, I definitely take the rage baiting. 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:53.759 Um, and I will definitely take the bait from time to time. 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:59.840 And so one of them is like, you know, I never knew what was going on with my my teachers. 00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:01.360 They never talked about their personal life. 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:04.720 I was like, oh, you never knew whether or not your teachers had a husband or a wife. 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.919 And then they'll be like, Yes, yes, I guess I did know that. 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.799 And I was like, oh, okay, did you know if they had children? 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:13.120 Oh, yes, yes, I guess I did know that. 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:15.919 Well, then you knew what was going on in your teachers' lives. 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:25.039 You're just pretending that it's somehow different because of the people that we love, the people that queer people love. 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:36.080 And you're associating everything with sex when quite literally, if you want to talk about blatant conversations about sex, talk to a straight couple trying to have children. 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:38.879 Because they'll be like, Oh, yes, we're trying. 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.080 And I'm like in my brain going, Oh, yes, you're fucking. 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:43.360 Um, got it. 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:44.240 Understood. 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:46.799 Like, I have this conversation with my brothers all the time. 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:49.679 Both of my brothers are trying to have kids right now, and I was like, oh, great. 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:55.279 So, like, y'all are just going wild, and I have this conversation with them because I think it's so funny. 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:58.559 And then I'll say things like, you know, are straight people okay? 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:02.799 They keep talking about, you know, all this sex that they're having, like, they gotta prove it to us. 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:20.720 Um, you know, and it's just so funny the the way that casual conversation is so okay in a heteronormative world, but only if you're using heteronormative terms and only talking about heteronormative things. 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:27.039 As soon as it's queer, as soon as it's queer, no matter how small, this is my husband versus my wife. 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:30.799 As soon as that happens, then it's like, oh, why are you talking about sex? 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:34.080 And I was like, How did I talk about sex? 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:37.600 You nailed it just spot on. 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:43.120 I mean, I'm lucky, I'm a writer as well as a teacher, so I get some nice articles written every now and then. 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.919 Queer author celebrating new release or whatever. 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:52.159 And and I all it takes, and I talk to my students about this to try to get them to understand empathy and differences. 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:53.200 I say, look at this. 00:12:53.279 --> 00:13:01.360 If you were to say local college professor publishes new novel, everyone's gonna celebrate that, hard it, or ignore it, whatever, right? 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:04.960 You put queer local professor celebrates new novel. 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:05.679 Guess what? 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:18.240 Every time I release a new book or have a new story, I have to deal with those angry faces and the laughing reactions, and then the people in the comments just being gross and calling me a groomer and all those types of things. 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:22.080 It is ridiculous simply because we put the title there. 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:23.039 You nailed it. 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:27.679 Look, when I was in high school back in the 90s, I went to a Catholic high school, first of all. 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:29.200 So I got a bunch of trauma from there. 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:30.639 I could uh share with you. 00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:36.080 But I had a teacher who literally talked to us, would say things, it just got embedded in my brain. 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.600 Um, he would share how fun it was to make love with his wife. 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:41.039 And I don't know why. 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.200 Why would you share this with teenagers, right? 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:51.759 Like, oh, it's so and and and somehow he was able to get away with that because he was doing that through the lens of if you get married under God's eyes, and guess what? 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:54.960 You get to have so much fun, you know, you become a bunny. 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:57.360 Uh he was it was gross. 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:07.120 And I thought he got away with that in a private uh religious school because he said it under some sort of religious context or something, right? 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:13.039 Whereas we don't even have to talk, we I I would never talk about having sex with my students, never. 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:14.559 And you're absolutely right, though. 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:18.960 If I just say I'm married, then suddenly people are like, oh my gosh, you're sharing such gross personal stuff. 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:20.480 Like, get out, get over it. 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:21.360 We're not. 00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:26.310 Yep, absolutely. 00:15:26.550 --> 00:15:28.390 It it's people are wild. 00:15:28.470 --> 00:15:31.430 And I grew up uh so I started high school in the late 90s. 00:15:31.509 --> 00:15:39.110 Um, and I try to think about like I can't imagine what it would have been like to have a queer teacher who was out and proud. 00:15:39.270 --> 00:15:51.430 And I know that there were folks, you know, scattered throughout the US and around the world who were teaching and out and proud, but I can't imagine what it would be like for me and how it would have changed me. 00:15:51.670 --> 00:15:59.430 And then I think about the people that I gravitated to, and I just start to wonder, like I have no verifiable facts on this. 00:15:59.590 --> 00:16:11.430 I start to wonder where they're not those people were in the closet because I uh, you know, gravitated towards these educators outside of the spaces that I was comfortable in, which were performing arts spaces. 00:16:11.670 --> 00:16:14.790 None of my performing arts teachers in high school were queer. 00:16:15.030 --> 00:16:29.590 Um, but the but my history teacher might have been my my senior year, and my chemistry teacher might have been, and we didn't get along, but like I didn't feel like uncomfortable in her space. 00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:42.790 And so it makes you wonder like what would things have been like if there was someone that was like me or you in that space who was just like, I'm here. 00:16:43.270 --> 00:16:44.629 Yeah, isn't that beautiful? 00:16:44.710 --> 00:16:48.550 And that's what we're trying to do, I think, for queer advocacy in general. 00:16:48.790 --> 00:16:53.030 I owe, and I think most of us who have been around for a while kind of know this. 00:16:53.110 --> 00:16:58.470 I I feel like I owe so much to the generations before me, and their battles were even bigger at times, you know. 00:16:58.550 --> 00:16:59.670 Don't get me wrong with that. 00:16:59.830 --> 00:17:01.430 They opened so many doors. 00:17:01.590 --> 00:17:05.349 Um, and so that's what we're trying to do now is uh be that visible person. 00:17:05.430 --> 00:17:11.509 Like, I'll still ask my students at the end of the semester how uh because I'm just curious, and it's kind of silly, but kind of fun for me. 00:17:11.670 --> 00:17:15.990 Like, so just out of curiosity, um, was I your first gay professor? 00:17:16.390 --> 00:17:18.470 Your first and and almost every hand goes up. 00:17:18.549 --> 00:17:20.950 And and it's 2026, right? 00:17:21.190 --> 00:17:22.549 Almost every hand goes up. 00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:29.829 And and I just can't, and these these kids have gone through grade school and high school and multiple other college classes don't tell me they haven't had somebody queer in their life. 00:17:30.069 --> 00:17:37.269 So it is important, I think, to be that person because what it is is it just makes it a little more comfortable and a little bit more uh validating. 00:17:37.349 --> 00:17:47.589 As I don't want to say the word easier necessarily, because I think the variables that we interact with are always gonna be hard from one's individual life perspective, right? 00:17:47.829 --> 00:17:53.029 But we're making, we're we're creating pathways that make it more manageable. 00:17:53.190 --> 00:18:02.470 And so I I think like one of the colleges that I visit as an author and uh bring my books down and do talks with, they have a queer educator pride club at the university. 00:18:02.629 --> 00:18:04.710 Uh that's a shout out to Illinois State University. 00:18:04.950 --> 00:18:07.430 Actually, literally they call them the Redbirds. 00:18:07.670 --> 00:18:12.150 Um, oh, they've got a funny name for it too, but it's uh it'll pop in my head later, of course. 00:18:12.309 --> 00:18:26.470 But I just love the idea that they have a queer educators club where everyone who identifies that way and wants to be a future teacher can meet and talk about how they might deal with uh identity issues and pushback or anything like that in the classroom. 00:18:26.549 --> 00:18:28.150 That's what our queer students really need. 00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:39.350 And the more in the teachers that they have out there who are at least, I'm not saying you have to come in and tell everyone about every pride event that's going on, but talk about yourself in some context. 00:18:39.509 --> 00:18:44.630 I think it's important to show up and just be a visible sign of success and joy. 00:18:44.789 --> 00:18:57.190 We are our queer kids in particular, from my perspective, I worry that when they see all the hate and all the crap that's in the news right now and everything we go up against, they're taking steps back into the closet, right? 00:18:57.350 --> 00:19:02.950 They're taking, they, they're protecting their identity, and I'm not blaming them for that, but we're going in the wrong direction. 00:19:03.110 --> 00:19:09.190 And so I think if nothing else, if you come in and just say, look, hey, I know that the world can be a shitty place. 00:19:09.350 --> 00:19:10.789 I deal with it every day. 00:19:10.950 --> 00:19:13.830 I still am happy and I'm still wearing a smile. 00:19:13.910 --> 00:19:17.990 I'm still got my fists clenched when I need to, uh, metaphorically speaking, right? 00:19:18.069 --> 00:19:19.509 And we're we're doing the fight. 00:19:19.670 --> 00:19:23.350 And I think that's what's important is just to not be quiet about it. 00:19:23.509 --> 00:19:31.910 Think about all of the schools, and I'm preaching to the choir to anyone listening, but think about the states who are trying to get queer teachers to shut up. 00:19:32.150 --> 00:19:37.350 You can't have pictures of your family in certain in certain states, you can't share your pronouns. 00:19:37.509 --> 00:19:41.350 You can, I mean, they're they're outlawing you to they're banning talking about it. 00:19:41.509 --> 00:19:44.069 Why it's hard to be what you cannot see. 00:19:44.230 --> 00:19:45.590 They've discovered the secret. 00:19:45.750 --> 00:19:54.950 They would rather, I don't know why anyone would want their queer kid to suffer in silence as opposed to letting them be who they are and helping them figure that out. 00:19:55.269 --> 00:19:57.590 But that's why we're having these conversations, right? 00:19:57.750 --> 00:20:06.230 If we can get one, every conversation we have, if we get someone else who kind of sees the value in what we're doing to join or to be more accepting, that's what we need to be. 00:20:06.390 --> 00:20:12.950 We just need to keep talking until until we die, and then hope people keep talking even long after, right? 00:20:13.830 --> 00:20:14.789 Yeah, absolutely. 00:20:14.950 --> 00:20:19.029 I mean, we just have to continually pick up the torch. 00:20:19.269 --> 00:20:21.990 The next generation has to just keep picking up the torch. 00:20:22.069 --> 00:20:27.670 And I I feel just like you do about uh the generation ahead from us. 00:20:27.830 --> 00:20:31.430 There's a lot of trauma that comes from the generation ahead of us. 00:20:31.590 --> 00:20:52.069 I mean, when we were children, we were we were dealing with the headlines about AIDS, and um, you know, I have repeated this adodseum, I'm sure, at by this is you know, episode 210 or whatever, uh, that I didn't really have a future in my brain. 00:20:52.230 --> 00:21:05.269 And I never really thought about it because there wasn't a future for queer people, and even though I lived with that in myself and didn't say things, and I made plans to go to college and I did all this stuff, I didn't really see my life after high school. 00:21:05.509 --> 00:21:24.309 Um, and I think that's part of the reason that the first few years of my like undergraduate years were so full of constant change, was because there was no direction that led me to you know what was possible until I realized that there were more things possible. 00:21:24.549 --> 00:21:32.470 Um, and then once I realized that more things were possible, then and this is probably almost six years, right? 00:21:32.630 --> 00:21:37.430 Because in 2008, I think is when things started stabilizing for me. 00:21:37.670 --> 00:21:41.670 Um and I graduated high school in 2002. 00:21:42.150 --> 00:21:56.710 So um six years after high school, I finally started to see what like a future could look like because I had already lived longer than I expected to, because the the vibe was that queer people just died. 00:21:56.870 --> 00:21:59.110 Yeah, like that was your life. 00:22:00.309 --> 00:22:01.830 And that's so depressing. 00:22:01.990 --> 00:22:03.990 I mean, but but I appreciate you sharing that. 00:22:04.069 --> 00:22:06.710 It's like there are others who I think when I was a kid, the same thing. 00:22:06.870 --> 00:22:12.870 I just people ask me now, like, did you always think you were gonna get married, especially to to a man? 00:22:13.029 --> 00:22:14.789 And I'm like, I don't know. 00:22:15.029 --> 00:22:23.269 My 12, 14, 16-year-old self probably thought that, yeah, I'm gonna get married and I'm gonna have to live a lie because I think that's what's expected of me. 00:22:23.430 --> 00:22:26.630 My life is going to be one giant lie. 00:22:27.190 --> 00:22:29.430 And that that was depressing to me. 00:22:29.509 --> 00:22:38.549 I think that I just, you know, I can see why as a young person in college, you know, I was really drawn to fun things to escape my reality. 00:22:38.710 --> 00:22:42.630 And I think it was because I was just convinced my future is going to be hell. 00:22:42.789 --> 00:22:49.750 My future is going to be one giant lie because the world isn't going to accept me, andor I'm not strong enough to accept myself. 00:22:49.910 --> 00:22:59.750 Uh, and and both of those things are what we need to keep working on changing, allowing one person to accept that they can find a journey where they can be whatever they want to be. 00:22:59.830 --> 00:23:00.309 And that's the thing. 00:23:00.390 --> 00:23:02.710 It's just when I say like I want to be that visible sign of joy and success. 00:23:03.350 --> 00:23:07.350 The reason I keep thinking about that is for the same reason for your story. 00:23:07.509 --> 00:23:12.230 I know way too many students who I think are worried that they're gonna slip through those cracks. 00:23:12.470 --> 00:23:16.870 And where are they gonna go if they don't have any good queer mentors to help them? 00:23:17.029 --> 00:23:22.230 Um, college and any educational environment should be a place where we find those queer mentors. 00:23:22.309 --> 00:23:29.190 So if the queer mentors don't exist in our educational environments, we are doing a disservice to our queer youth, period. 00:23:29.910 --> 00:23:30.630 Absolutely. 00:23:30.870 --> 00:23:32.630 I think about that with my own children. 00:23:32.710 --> 00:23:42.390 I have um a son who did not go to college, another son who's in the Air Force, and my daughter is currently planning on going into um the Coast Guard. 00:23:42.549 --> 00:23:46.069 She's 18 and has been out of school for almost a year now. 00:23:46.309 --> 00:23:58.230 What I find interesting for them is their complete like disconnect from education, where I think of educational spaces as places to gather community because that's where I found my people. 00:23:58.470 --> 00:24:11.430 When even in places that I um was only at temporarily, like that ended up being only short chapters of my life, I always found community there. 00:24:11.670 --> 00:24:27.029 And I look at my children and I see how isolated they can be at times, and the the whole vibe of education has changed from a space of like community to a space of like work. 00:24:27.670 --> 00:24:45.670 And children, by the time they get out of high school now, are like, I can't do any more education because I'm so overworked, I'm burnt out on education that they're losing this developmental opportunity that I think is so helpful for people in their early 20s and late teens. 00:24:45.910 --> 00:24:49.350 That is just how do I build community as an adult? 00:24:49.670 --> 00:24:58.390 Because going out and just working, you could do it there, but it's a lot harder because you're expected to work. 00:24:58.630 --> 00:25:13.990 You don't have these, you know, couple hour breaks between classes or whatnot where you can hang out with your friends and and you know just go chill someplace and talk um what you've got to constantly be doing when you're at work. 00:25:14.150 --> 00:25:18.710 So it's an interesting thing because I think education is so necessary. 00:25:19.269 --> 00:25:34.950 Um and I also think that the route, and I fully blame this on politics, the route that um public education goes and K through 12 education is going is is creating a space of like it feels very prison-like. 00:25:35.110 --> 00:25:44.710 And I feel that as a middle school educator right now, I feel like I'm constantly like spending most of my day just trying to get you to be quiet and pay attention. 00:25:44.950 --> 00:26:34.150 Um, and so the even though I work in a collaborative creative field, I'm a theater educator, I find that the like punishment side of education, the like corporal side of education is almost stronger now than it was when I was a kid, and we are supposedly going to a different space where we're no longer assembly lining children and we're creating, you know, the idea that these children can be CEOs one day because we're doing project-based learning, and but it's still like butts in the seats to the workplace, kind of a pipeline, and it's not creating a space where people truly understand how to help and connect with other humans. 00:26:34.870 --> 00:26:38.309 You nailed it just by saying that education needs to be about community. 00:26:38.549 --> 00:26:43.190 And what I'm seeing at the higher ed level is I mean, more than half of our students are online. 00:26:43.670 --> 00:26:47.509 What kind of community building can we do when I don't even get to see you? 00:26:47.750 --> 00:26:56.390 Um, pre-pandemic, we used to joke that kind of like you talked about, if you had a couple hours between classes, you would socialize and we would joke that all we do is we see people on their phones. 00:26:56.549 --> 00:27:01.350 In between classes, they're just glued to their devices and then they perk up to do the work and then they go home. 00:27:01.670 --> 00:27:06.470 And that's something culturally, I think, that needs to change, and that's a technological issue. 00:27:06.630 --> 00:27:20.549 And then we have the pandemic, and my students, even today, still say how messed up it was for them in terms of building relationships in a really pivotal time in their life, and now they don't know how to make new friends. 00:27:20.710 --> 00:27:32.710 And so I'm encountering these young, beautiful, awesome, queer people, and all students, of course, who just don't even know where to turn to to find friendship, let alone a sense of community. 00:27:32.950 --> 00:27:34.390 And that's really disheartening. 00:27:34.549 --> 00:27:41.430 So once again, it kind of comes full circle, and I think that's where it's our job as educators and mentors to kind of talk about where that is. 00:27:41.590 --> 00:27:48.549 I'm really excited you brought it up because one of the one of the tips I give my my mentees is tell the students what you're doing. 00:27:48.710 --> 00:27:52.230 I want to show that I'm actively involved, not just sitting at home. 00:27:52.309 --> 00:27:56.710 Not that I had nothing wrong with sitting at home and binge watching my shows and reading my books when I want to, right? 00:27:56.789 --> 00:28:05.269 But I'm also I go to these events on campus and in the community, and especially if they're queer related at all, I'm cut, I'm announcing what they are. 00:28:05.430 --> 00:28:06.630 Guys, go check this out. 00:28:06.710 --> 00:28:10.230 This is where you find people and make friends and get new experiences. 00:28:10.390 --> 00:28:11.670 And I'm I'll be there. 00:28:11.750 --> 00:28:12.549 Come say hi. 00:28:12.710 --> 00:28:19.110 You know, I I think the we gotta model how to get involved and recreate that sense of community too. 00:28:19.350 --> 00:28:20.150 I agree. 00:28:20.309 --> 00:28:39.910 And I I grew up at a time where I was making a lot of friendships and relationships through the internet, um, and that was all fine and dandy, but the internet even now has taken this huge shift backwards where it's no longer community building so much as like um mob mentalities. 00:28:40.230 --> 00:28:45.750 People are constantly jumping into mobs to have conversations, and it's mostly a negative space, right? 00:28:45.830 --> 00:28:47.190 So it becomes hard. 00:28:47.430 --> 00:28:50.390 It becomes hard to have genuine conversations with folks. 00:28:50.470 --> 00:29:06.950 Whereas when I was in my early 20s, you know, chat rooms were were where I met people and I talked about queer experiences, and it was a safe space for me to have those conversations because the physical space didn't exist in the community that I lived in or whatnot. 00:29:07.269 --> 00:29:20.710 And that idea of I I've had such a struggle with with uh some people's mentality when it comes to COVID and also online learning because, like, for me, it's a thriving thing. 00:29:20.870 --> 00:29:38.069 I got both of my master's degrees through online programs, but I have really, really beautiful relationships with the people from my master's programs that are like when we are in each other's spaces, when we are near each other, we are constantly finding ways to see each other. 00:29:38.309 --> 00:30:21.509 Um, and so that to me, the internet was like that truly like beautiful place where you know you can really connect with people all over the world, and now it's like we are using it to disconnect from people all over the world, even though it's a funnel of like full connection, like it's used more now to create barriers than it is to to um to build, um, which is so sad, and I think that maybe that's why it's what I do here, like at Teaching While Queer, and why I'm so focused on like we need to create an online community, is because that's what helped me when I was young, and that's what I needed. 00:30:21.670 --> 00:30:31.670 And I hope that like we can get back to a place where like community becomes a core value of what the internet does again. 00:30:31.910 --> 00:30:32.549 Yeah. 00:30:33.029 --> 00:30:35.830 Yeah, and it can certainly happen in online spaces. 00:30:35.990 --> 00:30:40.630 It's just once again, it takes good leadership to model how to make that happen. 00:30:40.789 --> 00:30:41.509 Yeah, you're right. 00:30:41.590 --> 00:30:42.150 You take me back. 00:30:42.309 --> 00:30:48.390 Good old AOL chat rooms back in the day when I first really played with how to identify myself. 00:30:48.470 --> 00:30:53.670 And and that wasn't that that's an important part of anyone's experience, is to have a a medium to do that. 00:30:53.750 --> 00:30:55.590 So the online area can be great. 00:30:55.750 --> 00:31:07.029 I think I get a concern algorithms and AI and everything like that is just exactly it's preventing us from seeing other parts of humanity. 00:31:07.269 --> 00:31:09.029 And I guess I'm guilty too. 00:31:09.110 --> 00:31:21.830 Like, believe me, I've uh I have blocked and unfollowed a lot of gross behavior, but I also wonder if there aren't individuals who need to see what we're doing and never will because their algorithms are preventing it from even getting through. 00:31:22.230 --> 00:31:34.390 Yeah, algorithms and AI are a whole whole other aspect of what's corroding the internet because I do one, if I came to a space because I wanted to connect with people, I should see the people I'm connecting with. 00:31:34.710 --> 00:31:38.950 So, why is the algorithm now just listening to my Alexa? 00:31:39.430 --> 00:31:42.390 And like, you know, I have a conversation. 00:31:42.549 --> 00:31:44.710 I this literally happened the other day. 00:31:44.789 --> 00:31:51.190 My husband and I were having a conversation about something that somebody bought, and then it just started showing up on advertisements on our TV. 00:31:51.350 --> 00:32:07.190 It started showing up on our social media, and I'm like, dude, or I've been playing my Legend of Zelda, which is hooked, you know, my switch is hooked to uh our internet, and now I have nothing but Legend of Zelda like reels, which I love. 00:32:07.590 --> 00:32:10.309 Yeah, but like why are they showing up? 00:32:10.470 --> 00:32:14.630 Why why am I not seeing what my best friend is posting? 00:32:14.789 --> 00:32:19.269 Um, but I'm seeing these like random people playing games on the internet. 00:32:19.670 --> 00:32:29.509 Um, and algorithm the algorithm side of it just it really puts you in a bubble, which is so funny to me when people are like, get this shit off of my feed. 00:32:29.590 --> 00:32:34.789 And I'm like, Well, in order for it to be on your feed, you had to work for it. 00:32:35.029 --> 00:32:42.230 Like, if gay stuff is showing up on your feed, it's because someone in your IP address is searching for gay stuff. 00:32:42.390 --> 00:32:42.870 Yep. 00:32:43.110 --> 00:32:43.509 Right? 00:32:43.670 --> 00:32:54.870 And so clearly what that tells me is you know nothing about the internet, you know nothing about algorithms, and your algorithm, yes, should be creating a bubble for you, but it's only creating the bubble so big. 00:32:55.110 --> 00:32:57.350 The bubble is as big as your house. 00:32:57.590 --> 00:33:03.269 Everybody who's connected to your Wi-Fi has the ability to impact your specific algorithm. 00:33:03.590 --> 00:33:14.950 So it's so funny, like just how these bubbles exist, but then when there's like moments where they're like crossing over into each other, there's this outrage. 00:33:15.190 --> 00:33:16.789 Why would you put this on my feed? 00:33:16.870 --> 00:33:18.549 Nobody put it on your feed. 00:33:18.710 --> 00:33:21.830 Like, I didn't say, here's teaching while queer. 00:33:21.910 --> 00:33:26.789 I'm putting it on your your Instagram feed personally. 00:33:27.110 --> 00:33:31.190 No, it just showed up because of what somebody in your house is looking at. 00:33:31.350 --> 00:33:31.830 Yeah. 00:33:32.150 --> 00:33:33.910 That is such an interesting way to look at it. 00:33:33.990 --> 00:33:35.990 I think I always used to think it's probably them. 00:33:36.150 --> 00:33:44.390 They're just they're seeking these things out, um, either to be mad at them or they secretly do like it, and they're just, you know, making some public comments. 00:33:44.470 --> 00:33:47.350 But I've never really thought of the family connections and the Wi-Fi. 00:33:47.430 --> 00:33:52.549 That's really fascinating, and it almost makes you want to say to that person, it's like, hey, be careful. 00:33:52.710 --> 00:34:01.910 I think you're saying something nasty about someone in your life who has yet to tell you about who they are, and I wonder why that is. 00:34:02.390 --> 00:34:03.110 Yeah, right. 00:34:03.269 --> 00:34:03.590 Yeah. 00:34:03.910 --> 00:34:07.110 Um I'm curious, what do you think they wouldn't talk to you? 00:34:07.509 --> 00:34:11.909 Um, I see that we're moving along with time, and I want to talk. 00:34:11.989 --> 00:34:15.670 You mentioned that you're an author, and I wanted to talk a little bit about your books. 00:34:15.909 --> 00:34:17.670 Um, tell me more. 00:34:17.829 --> 00:34:18.789 Like, yeah, well, thank you. 00:34:18.949 --> 00:34:19.429 What do you write about? 00:34:19.750 --> 00:34:24.549 Um I love writing just as much as I love teaching, maybe second to teaching, honestly. 00:34:24.789 --> 00:34:29.190 Like, I get in, I feel like I got into teaching and and where I am now. 00:34:29.349 --> 00:34:31.190 I'm really I'm just proud, just like you. 00:34:31.269 --> 00:34:35.110 I think I'm very happy just to be some I wanted to be this version of myself. 00:34:35.190 --> 00:34:36.630 I always wanted to be this version of myself. 00:34:36.789 --> 00:34:42.949 And I say to all my queer students, it's like, you gotta have that dream version of yourself in mind and just keep working toward it. 00:34:43.029 --> 00:34:49.670 And the dream version of me was gonna be, I'm out, I am who I am, I'm taking no shit from anybody, um, you know, all that type of stuff. 00:34:49.750 --> 00:34:52.469 I like and it just took a while to get here, and I'm proud of being that. 00:34:52.710 --> 00:34:56.549 So I became a writer to try to include characters like that. 00:34:56.710 --> 00:35:03.349 I want to represent the queer community with characters that I never discovered when I was young. 00:35:03.590 --> 00:35:08.389 Very, very much like not finding queer representation in the classroom as a student. 00:35:08.630 --> 00:35:16.629 I felt like I sought out literature, movies, and stories to escape and always looking, hey, do I exist in this story? 00:35:16.789 --> 00:35:18.549 Do I exist at all in this world? 00:35:18.710 --> 00:35:19.589 And you know what? 00:35:19.750 --> 00:35:21.669 It's a lot more than just existing. 00:35:21.909 --> 00:35:24.389 Do queer people exist in your stories in your world? 00:35:24.469 --> 00:35:25.669 And are they thriving? 00:35:25.829 --> 00:35:30.389 Are they main characters or are they gonna get axed off in the first act of your scary movie? 00:35:30.469 --> 00:35:31.509 You know, that sort of thing. 00:35:31.669 --> 00:35:34.549 So I really uh have always loved storytelling. 00:35:34.710 --> 00:35:40.309 My mission these last few years has just been to uh lean into authentic queer representation. 00:35:40.469 --> 00:35:45.589 My the one I'm probably most excited and proud of is a series called Unveiling Aiden. 00:35:45.669 --> 00:35:49.109 Um, and there are two books out in that series called Singlets and Secrets. 00:35:49.189 --> 00:35:52.069 That's book one, and Pride and Persistence, that's book two. 00:35:52.149 --> 00:35:57.750 And the third one's coming, uh, so you never know by the time who knows, Fearless and Fabulous is the title of book three. 00:35:57.829 --> 00:35:58.710 Uh, it's done. 00:35:58.789 --> 00:36:02.469 Um, I just don't have a specific release date yet, but it's my favorite title yet. 00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:07.029 In short, they follow my main character whose name is Aiden each year in high school. 00:36:07.109 --> 00:36:09.829 So, book one, Singlets and Secrets is freshman year. 00:36:09.989 --> 00:36:11.909 He's been bullied in his past. 00:36:12.149 --> 00:36:13.909 He uh wants to be tougher. 00:36:14.149 --> 00:36:17.909 He decides he doesn't know where to go and he's looking for friendship and community. 00:36:17.989 --> 00:36:24.469 And and mistakenly, he he thinks he's gonna find it in his high school's wrestling team because he wanted to get tougher. 00:36:24.549 --> 00:36:25.829 Plus, there's lots of boys. 00:36:25.989 --> 00:36:29.509 Um, so he joins his high school wrestling team, but he gets bullied immediately. 00:36:29.589 --> 00:36:31.189 There's a lot of homophobes. 00:36:31.349 --> 00:36:38.149 Um, he's gonna quit that team, but not before falling in love, of course, with our JV captain, whose name is Mateo. 00:36:38.469 --> 00:36:48.549 So it becomes a beautiful, you know, story of friendship, um, kind of a will they, won't they, is Mateo even like me kind of story in the first book. 00:36:48.710 --> 00:37:00.789 I call it my unapologetically queer karate kid, because when Aiden quits wrestling, he finds a surprising mentor and his English teacher, always got to have a good English teacher in the story, who also happens to be a karate black belt. 00:37:00.869 --> 00:37:03.989 I did martial arts a lot as a kid, and there's a big story there too. 00:37:04.149 --> 00:37:16.149 Um, so I kind of put all this, all of my experiences and all of my ideas together and kind of think about full circle, like going back and watching stories like the karate kid and never seeing a queer character. 00:37:16.389 --> 00:37:24.469 Um, all of the 80s and 90s big stories, even today, you know, if you I mean there's a few, but I I challenge people, like, yeah, let's let's see how many you can name. 00:37:24.549 --> 00:37:29.989 And I'll tell uh in comparison to all the big ones that are out there, there is not enough queer art, period. 00:37:30.069 --> 00:37:33.189 Um, but what I wanted to do was write a queer karate kid story. 00:37:33.349 --> 00:37:40.069 So they uh my my homophobic wrestlers, I like to phrase it this way, small minds have big egos, and we sure know that. 00:37:40.149 --> 00:37:47.189 Uh, they put a challenge out to Aiden and Aiden and his teacher, they kind of develop a um martial arts program for outsiders. 00:37:47.269 --> 00:37:50.069 So it's like a it's like queer self-defense, essentially. 00:37:50.230 --> 00:37:57.109 But it's not just for for queer kids, it's just for anyone who doesn't feel like they fit in or they need a little community or confidence building, right? 00:37:57.429 --> 00:38:05.509 So um I have a lot of fun stories there, but in short, it comes down to well, this wrestling team is going to challenge them for our main event. 00:38:05.589 --> 00:38:07.429 It's gonna be Mateo versus Aiden. 00:38:07.750 --> 00:38:16.149 Spoiler, the boy that we fell in love with is gonna be, you know, think about like that karate kid rivalry, but make them both queer, if you will, and and let's see what happens there. 00:38:16.230 --> 00:38:17.909 Um, and so I had a lot of fun with that. 00:38:18.069 --> 00:38:21.029 I continue it in book two, and I try to represent everyone. 00:38:21.189 --> 00:38:27.669 I really lean into the uh to transgender themes, transgender issues in sports, transgender characters. 00:38:27.909 --> 00:38:30.469 Uh, I really try to make that really big in book two. 00:38:30.629 --> 00:38:34.949 Um, and then as it continues, of course, our world just just is bigger and bigger. 00:38:35.109 --> 00:38:36.389 So I'm really proud of that one. 00:38:36.469 --> 00:38:38.629 That's the one that got me um on a PBS show. 00:38:38.789 --> 00:38:43.269 So I did my first PBS interview about that book series and the motivations that led up to them. 00:38:43.429 --> 00:38:44.789 We've had some really cool success. 00:38:44.949 --> 00:38:51.989 The creator of Cobra Kai, the uh follow-up Netflix show to Karate Kid, actually read it and blurbed it and endorsed it. 00:38:52.149 --> 00:38:54.389 Um, to be fair, I I asked for it. 00:38:54.469 --> 00:38:58.469 I called him out and I said, you know, Cobra Kai, I love it. 00:38:58.549 --> 00:39:05.509 It's great for what it does for nostalgic fans of the Karate Kid, but you've got um these rivals for those of you who don't know anything about it. 00:39:05.589 --> 00:39:07.829 Basically, you've got, I don't know, I'm just gonna make up a number. 00:39:07.989 --> 00:39:14.389 20 or 30 main characters who are rivalrying one another and these dojos, and it's cool and fun. 00:39:14.629 --> 00:39:16.629 Where are the queer kids? 00:39:17.509 --> 00:39:17.989 Where? 00:39:18.149 --> 00:39:19.989 Yeah, it's it's where are okay. 00:39:20.069 --> 00:39:25.750 There's one side character, it's a girlfriend who become who's bisexual in season two, and she and you blink and you miss her. 00:39:25.989 --> 00:39:27.349