SPEAKER_00: In short, I became the teacher that I never saw.
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be.
SPEAKER_01: I'm Brian Stanton.
SPEAKER_01: This is a Teaching While Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom.
SPEAKER_01: Alright, let's do the work.
SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Queering Education, a Teaching While Queer podcast.
SPEAKER_01: My name is Brian Stanton.
SPEAKER_01: I am your host.
SPEAKER_01: My pronouns are they, them.
SPEAKER_01: Today I'm joined by Joe.
SPEAKER_01: Hey Joe, can you do me a favor and introduce yourself to everybody who's listening?
SPEAKER_00: I would love to and thank you so much for having me here today.
SPEAKER_00: My name is Joe Shinachis.
SPEAKER_00: My pronouns are he, him.
SPEAKER_00: I identify as a queer or gay man.
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm from Peoria, Illinois, and I've been teaching for over 25 years.
SPEAKER_00: I spent the first 10 years of my career as a high school English teacher.
SPEAKER_00: And for the last 15 plus, I've been a full-time professor, primarily at my local community college here in Peoria.
SPEAKER_00: So shout out to Illinois Central College, where I'm full-time in communication.
SPEAKER_01: I love that you're coming with a breadth of experience.
SPEAKER_01: I particularly love your work in community college, namely because as a young person, when I was in Southern California, community colleges were like everywhere.
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't until I moved to other states that I realized that they're not necessarily as common as I thought.
SPEAKER_01: So I really love when I talk to folks in community college spaces because I'm like, it's such a necessary step and such a necessary place that I wish like when I was living in Texas, there really weren't community colleges.
SPEAKER_01: It's like you went to university and that that was the only option available to you.
SPEAKER_01: There were some vac vocational schools, but they weren't quite the same.
SPEAKER_01: Um so I love community college spaces uh just because of the accessibility aspect of things, it makes educational our education truly accessible to folks.
SPEAKER_00: Um you know, yeah, like I love universities, don't get me wrong, but they are a world unto themselves where we could lean into the community college approach and kind of say, like, this is a chance to say why queer students and queer representation matter so much because we're not just an institution onto itself, we are a part of the community and we want to represent that fully, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: And I do think that there's a lot of like placing in boxes um the different realms of education.
SPEAKER_01: Uh the podcast recently changed from teaching while queer to queering education, and part of that was because we were getting a lot of feedback from folks that were like, uh, you know, does this include higher education?
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, why wouldn't it include higher education?
SPEAKER_01: Because we're all teaching.
SPEAKER_01: It's not like we're going into the classroom professing, right?
SPEAKER_01: You may be a professor, but you're not professing, you're teaching.
SPEAKER_01: So I'm confused that the terminology, for some reason, people think teaching and they're like K through 12.
SPEAKER_01: And that also gave them the vibe of like creating a hierarchy of structure.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I read some really interesting thought pieces recently on LinkedIn, just some articles that people were sharing on LinkedIn about like the hierarchy that exists in academia and how it is actually detrimental to educators, because we think that, you know, in order to have clout or whatever, that we have to be professors.
SPEAKER_01: Um, when in fact we can have, in some cases, a better work-life balance, a better um paycheck working in K through 12 spaces, but like that space has been so uh demeaned by politics politicization that it is uh is looked down upon.
SPEAKER_00: It is weird to think of it that way.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and and similarly, I even encounter that in the community college space with other higher ed institutions.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, there there was even, this has never been said to me, but one of my colleagues told me when she introduced herself as a professor at a community college to someone who was at a higher level institution.
SPEAKER_00: They even said something like, You're not really a professor.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Oh, oh, well, yeah, there's just no need for that kind of drama whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, K-12 teachers, I I think are doing honestly the hardest work.
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's much more demanding on your schedule.
SPEAKER_00: And again, being there for I look back on the first decade of my life and think, um, I don't know how I survived.
SPEAKER_00: I think I lived at the high school, and but it was an important, wonderful experience.
SPEAKER_00: And I think almost every college educator should have some public school experience, particularly high school level.
SPEAKER_00: You learn how to motivate and discipline and actually teach.
SPEAKER_00: We run into a stereotype sometimes where it's like you find these really smart professors who aren't so great at articulating what they know.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: I've definitely ran into that and would love to see more folks who end up in higher education having some sort of classroom management class or uh or even um basic lesson planning.
SPEAKER_01: Um, because you're right, there's a difference between understanding your content and understanding how to explain your content to somebody else and doing it in a structured way where multiple people with different uh ability levels understand equally.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: I love teaching an introductory level course at the college level because to me it is a chance to say, yes, I'm a subject matter expert, but let me communicate this in a way to someone who knows nothing about it.
SPEAKER_00: Let me try to get you inspired to learn, inspired to want to be at college.
SPEAKER_00: And I want to know how to be able to reach the students who come in with uh from all sorts of different backgrounds and with the ability to meet them where they are.
SPEAKER_00: It is ironic to me, I see at our college, and this is true at most higher ed institutions, you do not need an ex a degree in education or certificates that have helped you become a better teacher.
SPEAKER_00: You need to know your subject.
SPEAKER_00: So you get hired, and then you start taking faculty development program training.
SPEAKER_00: And I I love I'm a mentor to our new faculty, and I love being a part of that program.
SPEAKER_00: It's probably my favorite thing outside of the classroom.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I always think like, I feel like we're starting a couple days too late.
SPEAKER_00: Like we need to start this as early as possible, uh, always.
SPEAKER_00: And and then so those experiences are great.
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: Front loading is is ideal when you're going into an educational space.
SPEAKER_01: Um, let's talk a little bit about how you see your queerness and how queerness shows up in your work in education.
SPEAKER_00: I like to the these last few years, uh, the way I sometimes explain it is I took a little lesson from Bob the drag queen, uh, and I come in purse first, metaphorically speaking, and I introduced myself day one as a queer educator.
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't always out.
SPEAKER_00: When I first started teaching, again, 25 plus years ago, I taught at a very small conservative school.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I was very guarded, I was very protected of who I was.
SPEAKER_00: And I was always so nervous that I was gonna, I'm gonna be the gay teacher who offends some uh, I don't know, small town kid.
SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean to be stereotypical, but then they're gonna go complain.
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have this big battle.
SPEAKER_00: I used to have all these anxieties in my mind for all of that, you know?
SPEAKER_00: And then one day it shifted.
SPEAKER_00: And and particularly once I started teaching at the college level, I mean, day one, I'm like, I need to be the person that I always know I can be, always needed to be and want to be.
SPEAKER_00: And I need to stop being so guarded.
SPEAKER_00: I like to explain it this way it's not that I'm trying to make my straight students uncomfortable, but I need to be there for my queer students.
SPEAKER_00: We, you know, when I think what led me into education, and one of the big motivating factors in becoming out in the classroom and sharing my experiences was I didn't see anybody like me.
SPEAKER_00: I went through all of grade school, high school, and all of college as a student with no openly gay or out professors, at least none that I knew of at that time, right?
SPEAKER_00: And that's pretty common, I suppose, for someone my age.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's what needs to change.
SPEAKER_00: You know, as a student sitting in the back corner, I compare those first couple of years of me teaching at the small town conservative school.
SPEAKER_00: And I wonder, would I have made a difference for the queer kids I had had those first couple of years, if I had been a little braver, if I and and what would it take?
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to point fingers because it's really up to coming up with our own internal strength, right?
SPEAKER_00: But I like to think as a younger person, if I had seen queer educators being successful and joyful and visible, then it would have been a lot easier for me to do that too.
SPEAKER_00: And so that's the battle that I think a lot of queer professionals have is what's safe to reveal with ourselves in those environments and in education in particular.
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm trying to protect a professional career, but then at some point it turns and it says, wait a minute, what why am I doing this though?
SPEAKER_00: I, if I'm not doing this for the right reasons and for the right people, then I shouldn't be here in this classroom in the first place.
SPEAKER_00: So, in short, I became the teacher that I never saw.
SPEAKER_00: I I said, I need to be the person that I always needed at my most vulnerable when I could have used a queer person up here talking, you know, every day of my life I went through teachers talking about their spouses, you know, heterosexual relationships, you know, here's what the wife was doing, here's what the kids were doing today.
SPEAKER_00: And all I ever thought to myself was how awesome it would be to normalize that with a man's husband, or you know, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00: Like come in and talk to me about your experiences in your lives and make that normal as well.
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I'm doing today.
SPEAKER_00: So I I don't come when I say I come in purse first, I just I introduce myself as a married man and I show pictures of my husband whose name is also Brian, uh, and I put him up on the screen, and he's gorgeous, so it's a great visual aid.
SPEAKER_00: And and you know, I I don't try to talk about it in any way, I hope that makes people uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_00: I just we are I want to be a visible representation of success and joy and professionalism through a queer lens for everyone, and that's really what matters the most.
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: I think what you're talking about is so basic, and yet a lot of people have such strong opinions about it.
SPEAKER_01: Like I've gotten into arguments because sometimes I get arguments with people on, you know, in the comment sections.
SPEAKER_01: Um, just I definitely, I definitely take the rage baiting.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I will definitely take the bait from time to time.
SPEAKER_01: And so one of them is like, you know, I never knew what was going on with my my teachers.
SPEAKER_01: They never talked about their personal life.
SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, you never knew whether or not your teachers had a husband or a wife.
SPEAKER_01: And then they'll be like, Yes, yes, I guess I did know that.
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, okay, did you know if they had children?
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes, yes, I guess I did know that.
SPEAKER_01: Well, then you knew what was going on in your teachers' lives.
SPEAKER_01: You're just pretending that it's somehow different because of the people that we love, the people that queer people love.
SPEAKER_01: And you're associating everything with sex when quite literally, if you want to talk about blatant conversations about sex, talk to a straight couple trying to have children.
SPEAKER_01: Because they'll be like, Oh, yes, we're trying.
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like in my brain going, Oh, yes, you're fucking.
SPEAKER_01: Um, got it.
SPEAKER_01: Understood.
SPEAKER_01: Like, I have this conversation with my brothers all the time.
SPEAKER_01: Both of my brothers are trying to have kids right now, and I was like, oh, great.
SPEAKER_01: So, like, y'all are just going wild, and I have this conversation with them because I think it's so funny.
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll say things like, you know, are straight people okay?
SPEAKER_01: They keep talking about, you know, all this sex that they're having, like, they gotta prove it to us.
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and it's just so funny the the way that casual conversation is so okay in a heteronormative world, but only if you're using heteronormative terms and only talking about heteronormative things.
SPEAKER_01: As soon as it's queer, as soon as it's queer, no matter how small, this is my husband versus my wife.
SPEAKER_01: As soon as that happens, then it's like, oh, why are you talking about sex?
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, How did I talk about sex?
SPEAKER_00: You nailed it just spot on.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm lucky, I'm a writer as well as a teacher, so I get some nice articles written every now and then.
SPEAKER_00: Queer author celebrating new release or whatever.
SPEAKER_00: And and I all it takes, and I talk to my students about this to try to get them to understand empathy and differences.
SPEAKER_00: I say, look at this.
SPEAKER_00: If you were to say local college professor publishes new novel, everyone's gonna celebrate that, hard it, or ignore it, whatever, right?
SPEAKER_00: You put queer local professor celebrates new novel.
SPEAKER_00: Guess what?
SPEAKER_00: Every time I release a new book or have a new story, I have to deal with those angry faces and the laughing reactions, and then the people in the comments just being gross and calling me a groomer and all those types of things.
SPEAKER_00: It is ridiculous simply because we put the title there.
SPEAKER_00: You nailed it.
SPEAKER_00: Look, when I was in high school back in the 90s, I went to a Catholic high school, first of all.
SPEAKER_00: So I got a bunch of trauma from there.
SPEAKER_00: I could uh share with you.
SPEAKER_00: But I had a teacher who literally talked to us, would say things, it just got embedded in my brain.
SPEAKER_00: Um, he would share how fun it was to make love with his wife.
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know why.
SPEAKER_00: Why would you share this with teenagers, right?
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, it's so and and and somehow he was able to get away with that because he was doing that through the lens of if you get married under God's eyes, and guess what?
SPEAKER_00: You get to have so much fun, you know, you become a bunny.
SPEAKER_00: Uh he was it was gross.
SPEAKER_00: And I thought he got away with that in a private uh religious school because he said it under some sort of religious context or something, right?
SPEAKER_00: Whereas we don't even have to talk, we I I would never talk about having sex with my students, never.
SPEAKER_00: And you're absolutely right, though.
SPEAKER_00: If I just say I'm married, then suddenly people are like, oh my gosh, you're sharing such gross personal stuff.
SPEAKER_00: Like, get out, get over it.
SPEAKER_00: We're not.
SPEAKER_01: Yep, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: It it's people are wild.
SPEAKER_01: And I grew up uh so I started high school in the late 90s.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I try to think about like I can't imagine what it would have been like to have a queer teacher who was out and proud.
SPEAKER_01: And I know that there were folks, you know, scattered throughout the US and around the world who were teaching and out and proud, but I can't imagine what it would be like for me and how it would have changed me.
SPEAKER_01: And then I think about the people that I gravitated to, and I just start to wonder, like I have no verifiable facts on this.
SPEAKER_01: I start to wonder where they're not those people were in the closet because I uh, you know, gravitated towards these educators outside of the spaces that I was comfortable in, which were performing arts spaces.
SPEAKER_01: None of my performing arts teachers in high school were queer.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but the but my history teacher might have been my my senior year, and my chemistry teacher might have been, and we didn't get along, but like I didn't feel like uncomfortable in her space.
SPEAKER_01: And so it makes you wonder like what would things have been like if there was someone that was like me or you in that space who was just like, I'm here.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, isn't that beautiful?
SPEAKER_00: And that's what we're trying to do, I think, for queer advocacy in general.
SPEAKER_00: I owe, and I think most of us who have been around for a while kind of know this.
SPEAKER_00: I I feel like I owe so much to the generations before me, and their battles were even bigger at times, you know.
SPEAKER_00: Don't get me wrong with that.
SPEAKER_00: They opened so many doors.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that's what we're trying to do now is uh be that visible person.
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'll still ask my students at the end of the semester how uh because I'm just curious, and it's kind of silly, but kind of fun for me.
SPEAKER_00: Like, so just out of curiosity, um, was I your first gay professor?
SPEAKER_00: Your first and and almost every hand goes up.
SPEAKER_00: And and it's 2026, right?
SPEAKER_00: Almost every hand goes up.
SPEAKER_00: And and I just can't, and these these kids have gone through grade school and high school and multiple other college classes don't tell me they haven't had somebody queer in their life.
SPEAKER_00: So it is important, I think, to be that person because what it is is it just makes it a little more comfortable and a little bit more uh validating.
SPEAKER_00: As I don't want to say the word easier necessarily, because I think the variables that we interact with are always gonna be hard from one's individual life perspective, right?
SPEAKER_00: But we're making, we're we're creating pathways that make it more manageable.
SPEAKER_00: And so I I think like one of the colleges that I visit as an author and uh bring my books down and do talks with, they have a queer educator pride club at the university.
SPEAKER_00: Uh that's a shout out to Illinois State University.
SPEAKER_00: Actually, literally they call them the Redbirds.
SPEAKER_00: Um, oh, they've got a funny name for it too, but it's uh it'll pop in my head later, of course.
SPEAKER_00: But I just love the idea that they have a queer educators club where everyone who identifies that way and wants to be a future teacher can meet and talk about how they might deal with uh identity issues and pushback or anything like that in the classroom.
SPEAKER_00: That's what our queer students really need.
SPEAKER_00: And the more in the teachers that they have out there who are at least, I'm not saying you have to come in and tell everyone about every pride event that's going on, but talk about yourself in some context.
SPEAKER_00: I think it's important to show up and just be a visible sign of success and joy.
SPEAKER_00: We are our queer kids in particular, from my perspective, I worry that when they see all the hate and all the crap that's in the news right now and everything we go up against, they're taking steps back into the closet, right?
SPEAKER_00: They're taking, they, they're protecting their identity, and I'm not blaming them for that, but we're going in the wrong direction.
SPEAKER_00: And so I think if nothing else, if you come in and just say, look, hey, I know that the world can be a shitty place.
SPEAKER_00: I deal with it every day.
SPEAKER_00: I still am happy and I'm still wearing a smile.
SPEAKER_00: I'm still got my fists clenched when I need to, uh, metaphorically speaking, right?
SPEAKER_00: And we're we're doing the fight.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what's important is just to not be quiet about it.
SPEAKER_00: Think about all of the schools, and I'm preaching to the choir to anyone listening, but think about the states who are trying to get queer teachers to shut up.
SPEAKER_00: You can't have pictures of your family in certain in certain states, you can't share your pronouns.
SPEAKER_00: You can, I mean, they're they're outlawing you to they're banning talking about it.
SPEAKER_00: Why it's hard to be what you cannot see.
SPEAKER_00: They've discovered the secret.
SPEAKER_00: They would rather, I don't know why anyone would want their queer kid to suffer in silence as opposed to letting them be who they are and helping them figure that out.
SPEAKER_00: But that's why we're having these conversations, right?
SPEAKER_00: If we can get one, every conversation we have, if we get someone else who kind of sees the value in what we're doing to join or to be more accepting, that's what we need to be.
SPEAKER_00: We just need to keep talking until until we die, and then hope people keep talking even long after, right?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we just have to continually pick up the torch.
SPEAKER_01: The next generation has to just keep picking up the torch.
SPEAKER_01: And I I feel just like you do about uh the generation ahead from us.
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of trauma that comes from the generation ahead of us.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, when we were children, we were we were dealing with the headlines about AIDS, and um, you know, I have repeated this adodseum, I'm sure, at by this is you know, episode 210 or whatever, uh, that I didn't really have a future in my brain.
SPEAKER_01: And I never really thought about it because there wasn't a future for queer people, and even though I lived with that in myself and didn't say things, and I made plans to go to college and I did all this stuff, I didn't really see my life after high school.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that's part of the reason that the first few years of my like undergraduate years were so full of constant change, was because there was no direction that led me to you know what was possible until I realized that there were more things possible.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then once I realized that more things were possible, then and this is probably almost six years, right?
SPEAKER_01: Because in 2008, I think is when things started stabilizing for me.
SPEAKER_01: Um and I graduated high school in 2002.
SPEAKER_01: So um six years after high school, I finally started to see what like a future could look like because I had already lived longer than I expected to, because the the vibe was that queer people just died.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like that was your life.
SPEAKER_00: And that's so depressing.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, but but I appreciate you sharing that.
SPEAKER_00: It's like there are others who I think when I was a kid, the same thing.
SPEAKER_00: I just people ask me now, like, did you always think you were gonna get married, especially to to a man?
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: My 12, 14, 16-year-old self probably thought that, yeah, I'm gonna get married and I'm gonna have to live a lie because I think that's what's expected of me.
SPEAKER_00: My life is going to be one giant lie.
SPEAKER_00: And that that was depressing to me.
SPEAKER_00: I think that I just, you know, I can see why as a young person in college, you know, I was really drawn to fun things to escape my reality.
SPEAKER_00: And I think it was because I was just convinced my future is going to be hell.
SPEAKER_00: My future is going to be one giant lie because the world isn't going to accept me, andor I'm not strong enough to accept myself.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and and both of those things are what we need to keep working on changing, allowing one person to accept that they can find a journey where they can be whatever they want to be.
SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing.
SPEAKER_00: It's just when I say like I want to be that visible sign of joy and success.
SPEAKER_00: The reason I keep thinking about that is for the same reason for your story.
SPEAKER_00: I know way too many students who I think are worried that they're gonna slip through those cracks.
SPEAKER_00: And where are they gonna go if they don't have any good queer mentors to help them?
SPEAKER_00: Um, college and any educational environment should be a place where we find those queer mentors.
SPEAKER_00: So if the queer mentors don't exist in our educational environments, we are doing a disservice to our queer youth, period.
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: I think about that with my own children.
SPEAKER_01: I have um a son who did not go to college, another son who's in the Air Force, and my daughter is currently planning on going into um the Coast Guard.
SPEAKER_01: She's 18 and has been out of school for almost a year now.
SPEAKER_01: What I find interesting for them is their complete like disconnect from education, where I think of educational spaces as places to gather community because that's where I found my people.
SPEAKER_01: When even in places that I um was only at temporarily, like that ended up being only short chapters of my life, I always found community there.
SPEAKER_01: And I look at my children and I see how isolated they can be at times, and the the whole vibe of education has changed from a space of like community to a space of like work.
SPEAKER_01: And children, by the time they get out of high school now, are like, I can't do any more education because I'm so overworked, I'm burnt out on education that they're losing this developmental opportunity that I think is so helpful for people in their early 20s and late teens.
SPEAKER_01: That is just how do I build community as an adult?
SPEAKER_01: Because going out and just working, you could do it there, but it's a lot harder because you're expected to work.
SPEAKER_01: You don't have these, you know, couple hour breaks between classes or whatnot where you can hang out with your friends and and you know just go chill someplace and talk um what you've got to constantly be doing when you're at work.
SPEAKER_01: So it's an interesting thing because I think education is so necessary.
SPEAKER_01: Um and I also think that the route, and I fully blame this on politics, the route that um public education goes and K through 12 education is going is is creating a space of like it feels very prison-like.
SPEAKER_01: And I feel that as a middle school educator right now, I feel like I'm constantly like spending most of my day just trying to get you to be quiet and pay attention.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the even though I work in a collaborative creative field, I'm a theater educator, I find that the like punishment side of education, the like corporal side of education is almost stronger now than it was when I was a kid, and we are supposedly going to a different space where we're no longer assembly lining children and we're creating, you know, the idea that these children can be CEOs one day because we're doing project-based learning, and but it's still like butts in the seats to the workplace, kind of a pipeline, and it's not creating a space where people truly understand how to help and connect with other humans.
SPEAKER_00: You nailed it just by saying that education needs to be about community.
SPEAKER_00: And what I'm seeing at the higher ed level is I mean, more than half of our students are online.
SPEAKER_00: What kind of community building can we do when I don't even get to see you?
SPEAKER_00: Um, pre-pandemic, we used to joke that kind of like you talked about, if you had a couple hours between classes, you would socialize and we would joke that all we do is we see people on their phones.
SPEAKER_00: In between classes, they're just glued to their devices and then they perk up to do the work and then they go home.
SPEAKER_00: And that's something culturally, I think, that needs to change, and that's a technological issue.
SPEAKER_00: And then we have the pandemic, and my students, even today, still say how messed up it was for them in terms of building relationships in a really pivotal time in their life, and now they don't know how to make new friends.
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm encountering these young, beautiful, awesome, queer people, and all students, of course, who just don't even know where to turn to to find friendship, let alone a sense of community.
SPEAKER_00: And that's really disheartening.
SPEAKER_00: So once again, it kind of comes full circle, and I think that's where it's our job as educators and mentors to kind of talk about where that is.
SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited you brought it up because one of the one of the tips I give my my mentees is tell the students what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00: I want to show that I'm actively involved, not just sitting at home.
SPEAKER_00: Not that I had nothing wrong with sitting at home and binge watching my shows and reading my books when I want to, right?
SPEAKER_00: But I'm also I go to these events on campus and in the community, and especially if they're queer related at all, I'm cut, I'm announcing what they are.
SPEAKER_00: Guys, go check this out.
SPEAKER_00: This is where you find people and make friends and get new experiences.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'll be there.
SPEAKER_00: Come say hi.
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I think the we gotta model how to get involved and recreate that sense of community too.
SPEAKER_01: I agree.
SPEAKER_01: And I I grew up at a time where I was making a lot of friendships and relationships through the internet, um, and that was all fine and dandy, but the internet even now has taken this huge shift backwards where it's no longer community building so much as like um mob mentalities.
SPEAKER_01: People are constantly jumping into mobs to have conversations, and it's mostly a negative space, right?
SPEAKER_01: So it becomes hard.
SPEAKER_01: It becomes hard to have genuine conversations with folks.
SPEAKER_01: Whereas when I was in my early 20s, you know, chat rooms were were where I met people and I talked about queer experiences, and it was a safe space for me to have those conversations because the physical space didn't exist in the community that I lived in or whatnot.
SPEAKER_01: And that idea of I I've had such a struggle with with uh some people's mentality when it comes to COVID and also online learning because, like, for me, it's a thriving thing.
SPEAKER_01: I got both of my master's degrees through online programs, but I have really, really beautiful relationships with the people from my master's programs that are like when we are in each other's spaces, when we are near each other, we are constantly finding ways to see each other.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that to me, the internet was like that truly like beautiful place where you know you can really connect with people all over the world, and now it's like we are using it to disconnect from people all over the world, even though it's a funnel of like full connection, like it's used more now to create barriers than it is to to um to build, um, which is so sad, and I think that maybe that's why it's what I do here, like at Teaching While Queer, and why I'm so focused on like we need to create an online community, is because that's what helped me when I was young, and that's what I needed.
SPEAKER_01: And I hope that like we can get back to a place where like community becomes a core value of what the internet does again.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it can certainly happen in online spaces.
SPEAKER_00: It's just once again, it takes good leadership to model how to make that happen.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right.
SPEAKER_00: You take me back.
SPEAKER_00: Good old AOL chat rooms back in the day when I first really played with how to identify myself.
SPEAKER_00: And and that wasn't that that's an important part of anyone's experience, is to have a a medium to do that.
SPEAKER_00: So the online area can be great.
SPEAKER_00: I think I get a concern algorithms and AI and everything like that is just exactly it's preventing us from seeing other parts of humanity.
SPEAKER_00: And I guess I'm guilty too.
SPEAKER_00: Like, believe me, I've uh I have blocked and unfollowed a lot of gross behavior, but I also wonder if there aren't individuals who need to see what we're doing and never will because their algorithms are preventing it from even getting through.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, algorithms and AI are a whole whole other aspect of what's corroding the internet because I do one, if I came to a space because I wanted to connect with people, I should see the people I'm connecting with.
SPEAKER_01: So, why is the algorithm now just listening to my Alexa?
SPEAKER_01: And like, you know, I have a conversation.
SPEAKER_01: I this literally happened the other day.
SPEAKER_01: My husband and I were having a conversation about something that somebody bought, and then it just started showing up on advertisements on our TV.
SPEAKER_01: It started showing up on our social media, and I'm like, dude, or I've been playing my Legend of Zelda, which is hooked, you know, my switch is hooked to uh our internet, and now I have nothing but Legend of Zelda like reels, which I love.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but like why are they showing up?
SPEAKER_01: Why why am I not seeing what my best friend is posting?
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm seeing these like random people playing games on the internet.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and algorithm the algorithm side of it just it really puts you in a bubble, which is so funny to me when people are like, get this shit off of my feed.
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Well, in order for it to be on your feed, you had to work for it.
SPEAKER_01: Like, if gay stuff is showing up on your feed, it's because someone in your IP address is searching for gay stuff.
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
SPEAKER_01: Right?
SPEAKER_01: And so clearly what that tells me is you know nothing about the internet, you know nothing about algorithms, and your algorithm, yes, should be creating a bubble for you, but it's only creating the bubble so big.
SPEAKER_01: The bubble is as big as your house.
SPEAKER_01: Everybody who's connected to your Wi-Fi has the ability to impact your specific algorithm.
SPEAKER_01: So it's so funny, like just how these bubbles exist, but then when there's like moments where they're like crossing over into each other, there's this outrage.
SPEAKER_01: Why would you put this on my feed?
SPEAKER_01: Nobody put it on your feed.
SPEAKER_01: Like, I didn't say, here's teaching while queer.
SPEAKER_01: I'm putting it on your your Instagram feed personally.
SPEAKER_01: No, it just showed up because of what somebody in your house is looking at.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: That is such an interesting way to look at it.
SPEAKER_00: I think I always used to think it's probably them.
SPEAKER_00: They're just they're seeking these things out, um, either to be mad at them or they secretly do like it, and they're just, you know, making some public comments.
SPEAKER_00: But I've never really thought of the family connections and the Wi-Fi.
SPEAKER_00: That's really fascinating, and it almost makes you want to say to that person, it's like, hey, be careful.
SPEAKER_00: I think you're saying something nasty about someone in your life who has yet to tell you about who they are, and I wonder why that is.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um I'm curious, what do you think they wouldn't talk to you?
SPEAKER_01: Um, I see that we're moving along with time, and I want to talk.
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned that you're an author, and I wanted to talk a little bit about your books.
SPEAKER_01: Um, tell me more.
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, well, thank you.
SPEAKER_00: What do you write about?
SPEAKER_00: Um I love writing just as much as I love teaching, maybe second to teaching, honestly.
SPEAKER_00: Like, I get in, I feel like I got into teaching and and where I am now.
SPEAKER_00: I'm really I'm just proud, just like you.
SPEAKER_00: I think I'm very happy just to be some I wanted to be this version of myself.
SPEAKER_00: I always wanted to be this version of myself.
SPEAKER_00: And I say to all my queer students, it's like, you gotta have that dream version of yourself in mind and just keep working toward it.
SPEAKER_00: And the dream version of me was gonna be, I'm out, I am who I am, I'm taking no shit from anybody, um, you know, all that type of stuff.
SPEAKER_00: I like and it just took a while to get here, and I'm proud of being that.
SPEAKER_00: So I became a writer to try to include characters like that.
SPEAKER_00: I want to represent the queer community with characters that I never discovered when I was young.
SPEAKER_00: Very, very much like not finding queer representation in the classroom as a student.
SPEAKER_00: I felt like I sought out literature, movies, and stories to escape and always looking, hey, do I exist in this story?
SPEAKER_00: Do I exist at all in this world?
SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot more than just existing.
SPEAKER_00: Do queer people exist in your stories in your world?
SPEAKER_00: And are they thriving?
SPEAKER_00: Are they main characters or are they gonna get axed off in the first act of your scary movie?
SPEAKER_00: You know, that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_00: So I really uh have always loved storytelling.
SPEAKER_00: My mission these last few years has just been to uh lean into authentic queer representation.
SPEAKER_00: My the one I'm probably most excited and proud of is a series called Unveiling Aiden.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and there are two books out in that series called Singlets and Secrets.
SPEAKER_00: That's book one, and Pride and Persistence, that's book two.
SPEAKER_00: And the third one's coming, uh, so you never know by the time who knows, Fearless and Fabulous is the title of book three.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, it's done.
SPEAKER_00: Um, I just don't have a specific release date yet, but it's my favorite title yet.
SPEAKER_00: In short, they follow my main character whose name is Aiden each year in high school.
SPEAKER_00: So, book one, Singlets and Secrets is freshman year.
SPEAKER_00: He's been bullied in his past.
SPEAKER_00: He uh wants to be tougher.
SPEAKER_00: He decides he doesn't know where to go and he's looking for friendship and community.
SPEAKER_00: And and mistakenly, he he thinks he's gonna find it in his high school's wrestling team because he wanted to get tougher.
SPEAKER_00: Plus, there's lots of boys.
SPEAKER_00: Um, so he joins his high school wrestling team, but he gets bullied immediately.
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of homophobes.
SPEAKER_00: Um, he's gonna quit that team, but not before falling in love, of course, with our JV captain, whose name is Mateo.
SPEAKER_00: So it becomes a beautiful, you know, story of friendship, um, kind of a will they, won't they, is Mateo even like me kind of story in the first book.
SPEAKER_00: I call it my unapologetically queer karate kid, because when Aiden quits wrestling, he finds a surprising mentor and his English teacher, always got to have a good English teacher in the story, who also happens to be a karate black belt.
SPEAKER_00: I did martial arts a lot as a kid, and there's a big story there too.
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I kind of put all this, all of my experiences and all of my ideas together and kind of think about full circle, like going back and watching stories like the karate kid and never seeing a queer character.
SPEAKER_00: Um, all of the 80s and 90s big stories, even today, you know, if you I mean there's a few, but I I challenge people, like, yeah, let's let's see how many you can name.
SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell uh in comparison to all the big ones that are out there, there is not enough queer art, period.
SPEAKER_00: Um, but what I wanted to do was write a queer karate kid story.
SPEAKER_00: So they uh my my homophobic wrestlers, I like to phrase it this way, small minds have big egos, and we sure know that.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, they put a challenge out to Aiden and Aiden and his teacher, they kind of develop a um martial arts program for outsiders.
SPEAKER_00: So it's like a it's like queer self-defense, essentially.
SPEAKER_00: But it's not just for for queer kids, it's just for anyone who doesn't feel like they fit in or they need a little community or confidence building, right?
SPEAKER_00: So um I have a lot of fun stories there, but in short, it comes down to well, this wrestling team is going to challenge them for our main event.
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be Mateo versus Aiden.
SPEAKER_00: Spoiler, the boy that we fell in love with is gonna be, you know, think about like that karate kid rivalry, but make them both queer, if you will, and and let's see what happens there.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I had a lot of fun with that.
SPEAKER_00: I continue it in book two, and I try to represent everyone.
SPEAKER_00: I really lean into the uh to transgender themes, transgender issues in sports, transgender characters.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I really try to make that really big in book two.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then as it continues, of course, our world just just is bigger and bigger.
SPEAKER_00: So I'm really proud of that one.
SPEAKER_00: That's the one that got me um on a PBS show.
SPEAKER_00: So I did my first PBS interview about that book series and the motivations that led up to them.
SPEAKER_00: We've had some really cool success.
SPEAKER_00: The creator of Cobra Kai, the uh follow-up Netflix show to Karate Kid, actually read it and blurbed it and endorsed it.
SPEAKER_00: Um, to be fair, I I asked for it.
SPEAKER_00: I called him out and I said, you know, Cobra Kai, I love it.
SPEAKER_00: It's great for what it does for nostalgic fans of the Karate Kid, but you've got um these rivals for those of you who don't know anything about it.
SPEAKER_00: Basically, you've got, I don't know, I'm just gonna make up a number.
SPEAKER_00: 20 or 30 main characters who are rivalrying one another and these dojos, and it's cool and fun.
SPEAKER_00: Where are the queer kids?
SPEAKER_00: Where?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's where are okay.
SPEAKER_00: There's one side character, it's a girlfriend who become who's bisexual in season two, and she and you blink and you miss her.
SPEAKER_00: Where are the queer kids?
SPEAKER_00: They need to be in our stories.
SPEAKER_00: So that that's I don't mean that to be a judgment, but maybe it is.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that that's a compliment, it's a compliment.
SPEAKER_00: Representation's a complicated question, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00: I uh from my perspective, I couldn't imagine telling a story without a queer person involved in every single scene.
SPEAKER_00: Why doesn't the rest of the world get that?
SPEAKER_00: That, you know, the world isn't just what's in your household or your neighborhood, it's so much bigger.
SPEAKER_00: And so that's what I'm trying to represent in that series.
SPEAKER_00: So I got their attention.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's kind of what got me on a national radar, and I've had some cool stuff there.
SPEAKER_00: I also write scary books.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I have a new new release that just came out last year.
SPEAKER_00: It's queer horror.
SPEAKER_00: It's called Darkness Calls.
SPEAKER_00: It is a monster in the woods mystery, but it really focuses on uh, well, one's very obviously queer uh in a character, but there are others who aren't haven't figured it out yet, all right?
SPEAKER_00: And I'll just say it that way.
SPEAKER_00: And what they're battling isn't just a literal monster in the woods, they're also battling a metaphorical feeling of worthlessness and sense of uh disconnect from everybody around them.
SPEAKER_00: And the theme of Darkness Calls is about fighting those monsters and finding a way to reconnect.
SPEAKER_00: Kind of so cool that you brought up community earlier because that's the thing, reconnect with community to find strength and resilience.
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, but it's just really a fun, supernatural dark fantasy kind of story.
SPEAKER_00: But if you read between the lines, that's what I hope people get out of it.
SPEAKER_00: So I love those worlds.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm still I hope to be writing for years yet to come in the classroom.
SPEAKER_00: It's just an opportunity for me to lead by example.
SPEAKER_00: Again, I don't want to be I love teaching, but I I feel like I always want to say, you know, I don't just teach, I'm doing these things.
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to show you how to be successful in other creative worlds.
SPEAKER_00: And again, just if nothing else, using it for my queer audiences in particular.
SPEAKER_00: I just think art is art is not just entertainment, art is um survival, you know.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, seeing myself represented in a story.
SPEAKER_00: I think about I I what's the first time you felt seen reading a book or watching a movie?
SPEAKER_00: What when's the first time you really felt, oh my god, that's me?
SPEAKER_00: They're finally talking about someone like me.
SPEAKER_00: And we know how that feels.
SPEAKER_00: I think so many other readers and and and um movie watchers, TV watchers, whatever, whatever stories you medium, whatever medium you consume.
SPEAKER_00: Do you think about what it's like for someone who's different to see themselves included in part of the story?
SPEAKER_00: That's power.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a feeling I know the answer to this next one, but I will give it a go anyway.
SPEAKER_01: What is bringing you queer joy right now?
SPEAKER_00: You do know the answer.
SPEAKER_00: All right, um, oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have a hundred things, I suppose, but I love uh this is pride season coming up, so I'm excited.
SPEAKER_00: I get to do, I go to all sorts of pride events.
SPEAKER_00: Um I my joy I I I get a lot of joy in music.
SPEAKER_00: I love going to live music.
SPEAKER_00: I I actually am kind of obsessed with Beyonce, so um I'm I'm really focused on act three.
SPEAKER_00: Are we gonna get an announcement soon?
SPEAKER_00: Something like that.
SPEAKER_00: Um, and and speaking of representation, if you don't mind, it's like I I saw her Renaissance concert and I've been a super fan ever since.
SPEAKER_00: And I go back to that concert as sort of the epitome of what America should, what America is, what we really look like.
SPEAKER_00: I have been to events and concerts, and I guess I should be careful how I say this.
SPEAKER_00: But if I look around the audience and it's all a bunch of white dudes, I feel like we're missing out on something.
SPEAKER_00: I'm just like, wow, everyone here, wow.
SPEAKER_00: All right.
SPEAKER_00: When I go to a concert and I see all colors in the audience and all styles and all gender and all sexuality represented, she brought uh for her one of her last songs, she brought out a bunch of uh queer uh dancers who are all people of color and all different body styles.
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of it, she just said, she got on the mic and she just said, I hope you feel seen on stage today.
SPEAKER_00: And that's why she's the queen, right?
SPEAKER_00: So music, life performance, that sort of stuff gives me joy.
SPEAKER_00: My dog gives me joy, my husband gives me joy.
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: I'm a pretty happy guy overall.
SPEAKER_00: I get I get sad easily too, but it's the stuff that I love that kind of pulls me out of it.
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and also the recognition that sadness comes and sadness goes.
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a part of life that a lot of people don't realize.
SPEAKER_01: They're just like, I'm sad.
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yes, you are, but it it was the perks of being a wallflower quote, right?
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
SPEAKER_00: It's one of my favorite quotes.
SPEAKER_00: If y'all don't know perks of being a wallflower, it's one of my favorite books, and it's a great movie.
SPEAKER_00: But there's this line that I even use it as an introduction in um a part of Darkness Calls um for my queer character.
SPEAKER_00: And and I introduce a section with a quote that says, I am both happy and sad at the same time, and I'm still trying to figure out why.
SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of exactly how I feel all the time.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's my vibe, honestly.
SPEAKER_01: What final thoughts do you have for queer educators who are listening right now?
SPEAKER_00: Be the teacher that you always needed.
SPEAKER_00: It's as simple as that.
SPEAKER_00: And and I think that we get so used to rhythms and patterns and being and saying what we say and not saying the things we don't say.
SPEAKER_00: But I think take a moment to pause and breathe and be like, who did you need the most when you were at your most vulnerable, your most sensitive, your most on edge of falling down?
SPEAKER_00: Who did you need?
SPEAKER_00: Be that person and show them, lead by example.
SPEAKER_00: I think it's also like, I mean, again, if you haven't figured out by now, I could talk all day about these things, but um, you know, the other thing, we we got to be good on outreach.
SPEAKER_00: I I was reading an article uh for a conference of a few weeks ago that was like by week four of the semester, if you have students who are absent, you need to reach out and blah, blah.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, week four, how about week one?
SPEAKER_00: The moment a student is gone, you know, send a message, see what you can do.
SPEAKER_00: And especially if the what we know personally and what the research backs up, especially for our transgender and non-binary students, it does it stress that they may experience in a classroom being misgendered by a classmate, being called the wrong name, even unintentionally by someone, can be so painful that that's it.
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're done with education.
SPEAKER_00: And and what a terrible thing to lose out on.
SPEAKER_00: So we need to be aware of the students in our class who need us the most and not just assume they're gonna come knock on our door and ask for help.
SPEAKER_00: I reach out, I send it when a student is missing, whether or not I know who they are and their identity or their background.
SPEAKER_00: Are you okay?
SPEAKER_00: Do you need to talk?
SPEAKER_00: I'm here.
SPEAKER_00: Day one, make sure I say a diversity statement that kind of goes, guys, everybody's gonna be respected in here.
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I introduce myself with pronouns.
SPEAKER_00: I get in the habit of trying to do that so people feel comfortable.
SPEAKER_00: All those things matter.
SPEAKER_00: But those are the specific details that I could go on and on and on about.
SPEAKER_00: In short, be the be the version of yourself that you know you can be and know you always needed.
SPEAKER_00: That's what keeps me going.
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being a part of Queering Education.
SPEAKER_01: This is a Teaching While Queer podcast.
SPEAKER_01: Take what you need from this conversation and bring it back into your classroom and your students.
SPEAKER_01: I'm Brian Stanton.
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, keep showing up.