WEBVTT 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.359 Heroes and holidays is not how we should be teaching. 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:12.640 Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be. 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:14.160 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:22.320 This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom. 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:24.719 All right, let's do the work. 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:32.960 Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Queering Education. 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:34.719 I'm your host, Brian Stanton. 00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:36.000 My pronouns are they, them. 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:44.000 Today we are doing live uh podcast interviews from the New Jersey Education Association. 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:46.560 Um, and I'm so excited to be here. 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:49.119 Uh first and foremost, I've got up Steve. 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:49.759 Hi, Steve. 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:50.960 Steve, Steven? 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:51.520 Steve. 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:52.719 Steve, how are you doing today? 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:53.280 I'm great. 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:53.679 How are you? 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:54.880 I'm well, thanks. 00:00:55.039 --> 00:01:00.640 Can you tell everybody who's listening a little bit about about yourself, how you identify, uh what your role in education is? 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:01.200 Sure. 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:03.280 So uh my name is Steve Kamoulis. 00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:06.560 I'm a outqueer uh gay educator. 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:08.319 Uh my pronouns are he, him. 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:12.079 I teach high school history uh in Middletown, New Jersey. 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:18.879 And um I'm also I also hold different roles in the uh in the association. 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:27.439 So I'm my local first vice president uh and uh corresponding secretary of the county, and I am on the executive committee for the NJAA. 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:28.799 I love that so much. 00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:32.560 I love the combination of education and advocacy that you do. 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:35.599 Um let's talk a little bit about what got you into education. 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:39.439 So it's it's really what gets anybody into education, right? 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:48.959 It's the impact of uh sharing my love of content, my love of history, and my love of really different kinds of history. 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:52.719 You know, every history teacher has their um has their passion. 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:55.120 My passion is social history. 00:01:55.200 --> 00:02:03.439 So I like social movements, I like uh the stories of people and how those people affect the greater story of history. 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:05.920 I'm not a battles person, I'm not a war person. 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:11.840 So um, you know, I love women's history, I love queer history, um, and so on. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:19.120 And then about 17 years ago, uh I met Kate Oakson, who I hope comes in to speak to you. 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:37.439 Um she she and I uh and a group of other people started this uh group called Make It Better for Youth, which was one of the spearheading groups that brought the inclusive curricular mandate to the state for LGBT uh history. 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:38.080 I love it. 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:38.960 Which is awesome. 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:40.080 That is awesome. 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:44.879 I am a huge fan of mandates that have queer inclusive education. 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:52.080 Um I'm also learning more and more about curricular resources from other nonprofits and whatnot that exists, so it's been really exciting. 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:58.000 When I actually went to get my teaching credential, I got it in history because I love history and I love storytelling. 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:01.840 My background is in theater, so I ended up with a theater credential also. 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:04.319 Um, and that's what I've been primarily teaching. 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:09.360 But I I was seeking out history because of the storytelling aspect of it. 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:18.000 Again, I'm not a battles person, I'm not a memorization memorization person, I'm not here for the dates, but I love the idea of telling stories. 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:26.960 My favorite novels are actually like historical fiction because I love the combination of like real and fake because it just makes the story so compelling. 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:28.639 So I love what you do. 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:32.319 It it was definitely like a path that existed for me for a while. 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:32.960 Nice. 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:37.280 How do you see your queerness showing up in the work that you do in education? 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:44.479 You've already given us some insight by doing the advocacy work for the career uh queer curricular uh inclusion. 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:48.159 Um how do you see it showing up on the day-to-day in your classroom? 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:57.599 So I so again, about 17 years ago, um, I started the first GSA at my high school. 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:06.800 And it wasn't like my personally, I wasn't out until there was a problem, like many of us, right? 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:13.039 So once that occurred, every you know, everybody knew. 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:20.079 Um, and then the situation with Tyler Clemente happened. 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:31.279 So there was a push to bring GSAs to high schools to uh try to help our students to be, you know, their authentic selves and to be successful. 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.279 So I was right in there, and that's also when I met Kate. 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:38.480 And it my worlds just came together. 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:52.879 So for the so for the past 16, 17 years, I've been really truly trying to marry in my classroom with um my curriculum, which I've also uh uh included prior to that. 00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:53.680 It's just a thing. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:54.399 Sorry. 00:04:55.120 --> 00:05:02.959 Um because it's it's important for the kids to see themselves in the story, right? 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:14.160 And teaching history, you have that unique ability to easily interplot other people's stories so that you that they may not be exposed to. 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:16.000 Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:16.959 I know, I'm sorry. 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:18.639 No, no apologies. 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:23.279 I I it's it's a fascinating thing. 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:32.639 Um, I'm learning a lot more about queer history now as an adult than I ever did when I was in actual schooling, uh even in graduate school. 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:44.879 Um, and so I do find it fascinating when there are these moments where you can just throw a nut, a nugget of information that's like this is a representation that you may not have realized. 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:52.079 And it's also like I'm I'm a big believer that we should not be putting heroes and holidays out there, right? 00:05:52.319 --> 00:06:03.439 You should not be saying, oh, okay, here's Leonardo da Vinci, and it's believed he was gay, or here is Harvey Milk, here is, you know, uh oh my God. 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:04.720 Sure. 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:06.639 I know you're gonna edit a lot of this out. 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:07.920 I will edit. 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:09.519 We're not live. 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:10.720 Okay, great. 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:23.759 Um, but heroes and holidays is not how we should be teaching because that only brings a definition, right? 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:36.639 When we teach history, we're teaching about the interconnectedness of the people to the actual story that is happening in whatever you're studying, right? 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:42.720 So it's not it's also not about people only, um, like individuals only. 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:47.199 It's about uh greater ideas of gender expression. 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:55.360 So one of the lessons I teach, my students often giggle when I show them the Louis XIV picture, right? 00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:58.319 And they're like, why is he wearing high heels? 00:06:58.480 --> 00:06:59.279 He must be gay. 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:00.959 And I'm like, well, no. 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:06.000 However, um, you know, men wore high heels to show power. 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:24.879 And then even better, I say, you know, I went um on the Met Art site and I saw other examples of high heels that men wore that had guns on them or whatever, and everybody's and everybody just goes silent for a minute and they realize like, what do you wear that shows your expression? 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.519 What do you wear that shows your gender expression? 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:30.800 What do you wear that shows who you are as an individual? 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:34.399 And how do you make that powerful uh impact? 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:38.800 So it's oftentimes thinking of things in different ways. 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:51.040 So you're you know, you're hitting the mandates, but you're also making the students think about the content in a way that other teachers would not. 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:58.879 And hopefully the work I do and the work that we're doing with the consortium and things um does that. 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:00.240 Yeah, absolutely. 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:08.800 I'm curious about how you think that um people can learn from our history in our present moment. 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:29.519 There are always there are always situations when you're teaching where somebody would turn around and just innocently raise their hand and say, this actually reminds me of whatever is going on, right? 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:34.799 Like the the present uh ballroom issue, right? 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:38.799 Uh why do we need the ballroom? 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:41.039 Why is that being built? 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:52.639 How is the decoration of the ballroom and the changing of the decoration of the White House and the Oval Office and whatnot signaling certain things? 00:08:52.879 --> 00:09:02.559 And that comes up every year for the past couple of years uh when I teach when Louis XIV built Versailles. 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:14.480 So then it often finds its way because I'm also not the type of teacher that gives a worksheet and says, complete this, and then we'll talk about only those answers. 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:24.879 You know, I oftentimes have questions on the board that are bigger picture questions that at the end of the block the conversation really truly starts. 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:33.200 So the past informs the present, and you need to uh understand that in order to go on to the future. 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:34.559 Absolutely. 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:41.759 Uh speaking of the present moment that we're in, what kind of message would you like to send out to queer educators who are listening? 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:53.679 Please have the courage to include these stories in your lessons, whether it's history where it's easier, English, where it's easier. 00:09:53.919 --> 00:10:03.519 But I have several um science colleagues who do uh who do projects on modern scientists. 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:09.360 And she came to me and and asked me, well, how do I find this? 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:16.000 And I looked up the website about I think it's like 500 queer scientists, something like that. 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:21.440 And she uses that as um as a resource for her kids. 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:25.279 You know, math teachers come up to me, they're like, How do I include it? 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:30.559 And I had another friend who does, hey, I don't teach math, so here we go. 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:38.399 Who does a design project with shapes, geometry, that sort of thing. 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:40.080 And they're like, Well, how can I include? 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:48.960 And I'm like, Well, why don't you simply just make a rainbow flag and have that be one of the options that you can make? 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:56.960 You know, it's all about showing the equation, it's all about showing what you do, but you're producing whatever the kid wants to produce, and then you get that buy-in, right? 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:15.600 If I was, I always I always think, if I was that kid in that classroom, I mean, now, uh not necessarily the 90s, but uh, but if I was that kid in that classroom and I knew that I had the ability to have that connect to what is being taught, life would be a lot different. 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:23.360 So that's what I think all the time when um when I'm real when I'm trying to open their minds. 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:24.399 Awesome. 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:26.000 I really appreciate that. 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:31.600 I I definitely love the integration into different curricular spaces. 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.039 I think that you're absolutely correct, that it's just a matter of providing the choice. 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:42.879 Um and I don't want to keep you too much in your conference, so I want to thank you so much for your time and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:43.600 Awesome. 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:44.000 Thank you. 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:45.039 Thank you. 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:51.759 Thank you for being a part of Queering Education. 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:54.320 This is a Teaching While Queer podcast. 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:59.519 Take what you need from this conversation and bring it back into your classroom and your students. 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:01.120 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:04.159 Until next time, keep showing up.