WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.360 I really didn't find myself as a queer teacher until I was already a leader, anyway. 00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:15.919 Um, I think to begin with, it very much felt like you were meant to be LGBTQ plus and be a teacher all at once in the same room. 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:25.039 Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be. 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:26.640 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:34.719 This is a Teaching While Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom. 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:37.200 All right, let's do the work. 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:47.679 Everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Queering Education, a Teaching While Queer podcast. 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:49.359 I'm your host, Bryant Stanton. 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:50.640 My pronouns are they, them. 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:53.920 Today I have the privilege of speaking with Richard McDonald. 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:55.600 Hi, Richard, how are you doing? 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:56.560 Hi, I'm great. 00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:57.039 Thank you. 00:00:58.079 --> 00:00:59.439 I am doing so well. 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:00.799 It's a beautiful day today. 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:04.079 Uh, can you tell everybody who's listening a little bit about yourself? 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:05.120 Yeah, sure. 00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:07.359 So um my pronouns are he, him. 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:12.640 I'm an assistant principal across Otrus, like a group of schools over in Yorkshire in the UK. 00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:18.400 Um I still get to teach a little bit of English as well at secondary, so like high school, age 14 to 18. 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:30.959 Um, but outside of work, I'm also studying part-time for a PhD, exploring the experiences of LGBTQ plus educators, looking at how they experience career progression through an intersectional lens. 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:33.359 I love that so much for two reasons. 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:44.879 One, I'm in the process of working on uh a book that'll be published with within a series of LGBTQ uh higher education uh leadership books in the UK. 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:59.120 So I'm actually learning a lot about that UK education system right now because my book is focused on um like cautionary tales of what we're seeing in the US and and what we can learn from that in other spaces. 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:09.759 Um and then the other part of that is that you came to me through the Queering Education Conference, which is coming up, and I saw your proposal. 00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:16.240 I just posted about where everybody's presenting from on social media and was like Yorkshire, UK. 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:26.319 I just love um that this thing that I imagined uh two years ago is like it's expanding, and we're getting people from all over. 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:28.000 We've got this year, it's crazy. 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:43.520 We've got folks from like Bangladesh and uh um Ecuador that are presenting, and I'm just like so in love with how vast the knowledge is going to be uh and how much we can learn from each other. 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:45.599 So I'm so excited to have you here. 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:49.360 I'm even more excited to have you at the conference in October. 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:55.520 Um, and I just want to dive in like education is hard, right? 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:58.719 And even without being a queer person, education is hard. 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:00.319 What got you into it? 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:16.479 Um, I think first and foremost, it was like the subject that I teach to begin with, like a real love of like English and literature and the appeal of doing a job where all I have to do is talk to kids about something that I really enjoyed every day was a real driver for me. 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:31.360 Um I think moving more into like leadership now, though, I think the main thing that motivates me is the developing staff and their knowledge and like developing the culture as a whole and then the impact that that can have on a really massive group of students as well. 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:37.199 Um and I think as well, like working with colleagues with a really similar mindset makes a massive difference too. 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:54.479 Yeah, but I think that that is one of the things that I advise people as much as possible as they're starting new jobs, is find those people who have like-minded uh goals, who are there to support you, because doing doing this work in a silo can be very lonely. 00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:06.879 Um I do want to talk a little bit about queerness in your experience because you've gone from not only the classroom work where you're still doing some classroom work now, but you've transitioned to a leadership and administrative role. 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:21.040 And I want to know how your queer identity has shown up in different ways in those two distinct spaces, because I I will be the first to say as an educator, I don't envy administrators sometimes. 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:25.279 Um, and I can see how those two roles are very different. 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:30.639 Um, and I'm curious how what your experience has been like transitioning from one to the other. 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:39.040 I think from like a queer perspective, I really didn't find myself as a queer teacher until I was already a leader anyway. 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:57.839 Um, I think to begin with, it very much felt like you were meant to be LGBTQ and be a teacher all at once in the same room, um, which there's a lot in the research about that, about the hangovers from um some legislation called section 28 over here, um, which I'm going to talk about at the conference. 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.480 So if people want to hear more about that, they can come along. 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:17.279 Um whereas I think what really kind of flipped it for me was when I moved to a new school and I presented at Pride Month Assembly, and I had a student come up to me who literally I'd been there a few months and he was literally about to leave the school, so he hardly knew me at all. 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:32.000 Gave me a little card and a little pride flag badge inside, and the card just said how much it meant to him that someone was sharing that story with them and to know that in that space um he wasn't alone. 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:42.319 Um, and I think that made me really reflect on maybe my experience so far and maybe the need to be a little bit more open and authentic about who I am at work. 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:49.839 And as a result from that, I ended up leading um bits and pieces across the school in terms of the LGBTQ plus inclusion. 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:58.959 And I think that the ability that you have as a leader to do that is probably amplified because you're in rooms and in meetings that other people aren't there for. 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:05.439 So there's the power then to like advocate for those people and also get those voices into the room as well. 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:10.079 Um, so I think from a leadership perspective, um, I really see that side of things. 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:18.720 And then still in the classroom, being able to like highlight those queer stories, um, have a really lovely group um that I teach English language to. 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:22.079 So it's like a linguistics course, they're around like 17, 18. 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:27.279 Um, and we do an area on social like a topic like on sociolinguistics. 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:38.480 Um, so we do a whole unit on queer language over time, looking at things like Polari, language of ballroom, looking at RuPaul's drug race, um, and kind of highlighting those stories as well. 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:43.600 I think means that I can kind of show everyone what those experiences are like. 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:47.920 I love that so much because I have these mini linguistic lessons. 00:06:48.000 --> 00:07:07.920 I teach theater, but I have these mini linguistic lessons as my students are talking um about the origins and cultural background of the words that they say, because so much of drag and trans vernacular is in like common slang amongst middle and high schoolers. 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:08.879 So much of it. 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:11.680 And I'm like, where did you guys learn these things? 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:14.160 Um, and do you even know where it came from? 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:15.519 Usually they don't. 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.560 Um, and so I love having those conversations. 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:19.839 It makes me so happy. 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:23.519 I used to joke with my husband that my students were all just baby drag queens. 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:41.360 And our daughter now, she's 12, she's constantly clocking it and like sleigh and queen and girl and all this stuff that I'm like, if you only knew uh the origins of this, I love it so much because I think that we have an immense power to shape culture. 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:46.240 And part of me wonders if that's why conservative folks are so upset. 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:54.800 It's because our language just flows right out of these young people's mouths in a very like real way. 00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:02.399 When they're talking about tea, they understand what they're trying to say, and it's not like they've taken something and mutilated the language. 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.079 There it's very much true to its origins. 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:11.040 Um, it's just they don't necessarily know what those origins are. 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:22.240 No, and I think his really powerful to like highlight those contributions and like the what the queer community has given to humanity throughout history. 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:25.839 Um so yeah, really privileged to be able to do that. 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:27.519 Yeah, absolutely. 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:28.959 I would love that class so much. 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:30.079 I love linguistics. 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:38.080 It was my my third backup option of like things I was gonna go into if uh if my route didn't work out. 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:43.360 Um I want to talk a little bit about section 28, just for the folks who are not in the UK. 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:50.399 Can you my understanding, because I again I'm doing some research right now, I'm I'm in writing mode for this book. 00:08:50.559 --> 00:09:04.320 So um my understanding is it's a law that was passed in 1988 that basically meant that like homosexuality was not supposed to be spoken as like as a viable future, a viable option for people. 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:08.000 Um, specifically in educational spaces, is that is that correct? 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:09.519 Is that a good understanding? 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:14.799 It was in educational spaces and anything that was run by local government. 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:19.679 Um but yeah, it was a bit of a tricky one because it wasn't actually enforced anywhere. 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:25.440 So there are questions about whether it was actually meant in the way that it was interpreted. 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:28.799 Um, because certainly no one was held to account for it. 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:33.519 Yeah, I have a I have so many experiences. 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:48.480 I I found out that there were sodomy laws uh in the United States that existed when I became an adult, and I was like, oh, broke some laws there, but I didn't realize because these laws are many times unenforceable. 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:56.080 Um and and when people have tried to go after them, like, how do you have this information? 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:14.960 Like as much as uh as much as folks want to believe it, I really don't know a lot of queer people who are having very, very loud and passionate, um unruly intercourse that would require the police to be called in an instant. 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:26.080 And so all these like unenforceable laws, they may have been unenforceable, but they had quite an impact. 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:39.679 Um, and I'm curious what you've seen as like as the impact here in the US, we've we've had over the last several years um don't say gay laws and all these things appear within individual states. 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:46.320 We've had people try to pass them at our federal level, and many of them come without guidance on what it means. 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:57.279 And so what I'm seeing from folks is a lot of pre-compliance, um, where they're kind of censoring themselves because they don't understand what it's supposed to mean. 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:07.200 And my feeling is that it's probably a similar situation if it was a kind of unenforceable law that had some vagueness in it. 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:09.120 Can you tell us more about that? 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:14.080 Yeah, I think like at the time, um obviously it was repealed some time ago. 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:18.559 So in Scotland in 2000, and then in England and Wales in 2003. 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:25.200 At the time, um, the research that I looked at and the perspectives back then, there was a lot of fear. 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:31.440 Um people were very fearful for their careers, but also their lives and like their lives outside of school as well. 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.000 They were scared in case parents found out. 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:38.720 Um, they were worried about the security of their job if things were reported. 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:47.679 Um, but I think really the lasting impact of it um is more to do with the socialization of the education sector. 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:54.159 Um, so I grew up um at my time at school, I left in 2003, so I left the year that it was repealed. 00:11:54.320 --> 00:12:01.519 I didn't even know that Section 28 existed until several years into being a leader, let alone a teacher. 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:17.840 Um so, and the more I read about it, the more I started to kind of see some of those things that were happening when I was at school and the silencing of those LGBTQ perspectives um and those voices. 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:28.320 And we were really kind of taught that it wasn't a place for people to be queer, that you couldn't be in school and be queer, and you certainly couldn't be a teacher and be queer. 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:54.320 And I think thinking back to my perspective when I started as a trainee teacher, those feelings that I had about not being able to be queer in the classroom very much stemmed from my experiences at school, and there was no one to kind of challenge or push back against that until I started speaking to other queer educators and kind of learning more about their perspectives and history and finding out about section 28. 00:12:54.480 --> 00:13:11.759 But I think as well, it's probably had a lasting impact not just on people who are LGBTQ throughout that socialization, but I think it's also taught people who uh cis hetero that again, LGBTQ identities don't belong in schools. 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:16.720 Um, and again, many, many people in the UK aren't necessarily aware of Section 28. 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:25.039 I spoke to a gay colleague a couple of days ago, um, and I just asked him, Oh, just out of interest, have you heard about section 28? 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:31.360 Um, it was related to a blog that I wrote for a teaching union, um, and he had never heard of it. 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:33.279 He was completely unaware of it. 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:43.120 And again, you could see the like blinds being lifted from his face as I explained to him, and he was like, No, actually, so much makes so much sense having heard about that. 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:47.919 So I think the fact that obviously it existed and it was very, very public at the time. 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:55.840 Um, you had a lot of people, a lot of the queer community campaigning against it, including the likes of I think Ian McKellen and Peter Tatchall were all involved. 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.879 Um, but actually, once it was in place and the repeal of it was very, very quiet. 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:10.320 And again, that's reflected in a lot of the research that schools may have been aware that it was being repealed, but they weren't quite aware of what that meant for the educational space. 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:14.879 So educational spaces didn't see any sudden change because of that. 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:17.120 Yeah. 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:21.600 I have a lot that they're just I'm sorry. 00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:23.519 I'm sorry, folks who are listening. 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:30.960 I I've been I've literally been writing all day um and and writing about parallels to this conversation. 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:38.960 So it's one, it's fascinating to be able to talk with someone who is kind of being able to experience some of the things that theoretically I have been writing about. 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:47.440 Um, but two, I am so intrigued now by what the possibilities could mean. 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:59.120 Because there is something about um you know enforceability and and when repeal happens, what transformations happen within systems? 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:10.399 Because just because a law is repealed doesn't mean that there's guidance on like now this is how you change things for the better, or this is how you change things to reflect that that law is not in place. 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:49.759 So, from your perspective as a queer leader in education, what are things that educational leaders can do to promote a more inclusive environment, not just for the kids, but for all of the queer people who are on campus, because our experiences that we're talking about when we were children, we can see the effects of the rhetoric and the policies that said don't talk about these things, even if they were unenforceable, or uh for the US, it would be the equivalent of don't ask, don't tell, even though it wasn't an educational policy, that was the general vibe of the country at the time period. 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:58.080 We as children saw the silencing of our educators, and so now, as educators, what is your recommendation? 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:06.960 What are the things that you think that we can do to kind of peel that back and to start bringing the blinders up on more people? 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:14.399 I think more than anything, it's about learning and learning from experiences that don't reflect your own. 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:32.000 I think obviously for people who aren't in the LGBTQ community, so teachers and leaders, to learn about those perspectives and think about how it might affect how they teach and how they approach things with their students, not just in terms of curriculum content, but in terms of like the pastoral care. 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:37.679 So thinking about people who are like a formatrice or like a homeroom teacher, I think is the US equivalent. 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.960 Um, and those like pastoral relationships as well. 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:49.519 But I think more than anything, it's the what we do for LGBTQ plus staff, and then that'll have like a ripple-down effect as well. 00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:53.279 Um, I know that it's not possible for all staff to be out. 00:16:53.440 --> 00:17:00.320 There's again in the research, there's all sorts of issues in terms of like the burden that that can place on staff if they're a role model. 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:09.680 There are people due to intersectional um barriers can't come out at school because there's something outside of school that means that they can't be out more widely. 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:18.480 Um, but I think we need to have cultures where everyone feels able to be out if they choose to be, um, so that they can be authentically themselves. 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:41.839 And I think, yeah, the way around that is learning, learning about those experiences, learning about the effects of something like Section 28 and what effect that's had on not just our school and the pupils at the time, but the the workforce now, the teachers, the staff, the TAs, um, and thinking about um the effect that it's also had on our own um experiences as well. 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:50.480 And I think as well, that learning from the wider experiences isn't just something that the like cisheck community need to do. 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:57.519 I think I've learned myself so much through listening to podcasts like your own. 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:07.119 There's like a similar one over here in the UK as well, um, through various like different sessions and conferences about perspectives that aren't mine. 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:16.160 Um, because I think my own perspective as a cis gay white man is quite a privileged one in a lot of senses. 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:24.559 Um, and I think as a result, there are certain elements of the LGBTQ plus experience that I haven't really understood. 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:34.400 So again, going out and learning about those through looking at the research, through listening to those people who are willing to share those experiences, I think that's the thing that can make the most difference. 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:35.759 Yeah, absolutely. 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:38.400 And I'm fully ready to spread the word. 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.599 Are you talking about pride uh is it pride in progress? 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:42.559 Proud in progress? 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:44.559 Yeah, pride in progress, yeah. 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.720 Yeah, so Adam and Catherine are actually who I am working with on my book. 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.799 Um, but they they're fantastic people. 00:18:52.960 --> 00:19:16.000 Um there's also uh they've got queer research educational symposiums that are happening in the UK, and a lot of honestly, a lot of the work that Teaching While Queer is doing, I'm modeling off the work that is happening in the UK because I'm like, it seems like this wonderful land with with rainbows and unicorns where everybody can do queer research and there's so much of it happening. 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:17.920 And I'm like, why don't we have that here? 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:34.880 And so a lot of the work that the that my this nonprofit is doing um is related to and inspired by the work that's happening in the UK with folks like Adam and Catherine and and folks like yourself because you're actually bringing some of that research here for our conference. 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:37.200 Um so go out, folks. 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.920 If you are a podcast listener, absolutely go find them because it's wonderful. 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:49.839 Um some of the evolution of this podcast comes from having listened to really powerful episodes of the podcast over there. 00:19:50.160 --> 00:20:00.000 Um and I I think that that's the great thing about a digital age is is the fact that we can learn from each other no matter where we are in the world. 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:02.640 Um I think that's the most exciting thing for me. 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:06.000 And I'll I'm be real about it because I am an elder millennial. 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.319 The internet was built, you know, when I was a teenager. 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.240 It came home when I was a teenager at least. 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:19.359 So I explored what does it mean to be able to have friendships where I had friendships with people and still have friendships with people I've never met in person. 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:27.359 So like I know the capacity of connection that the internet can have, which is why it makes me so sad when I see its capacity for hate. 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:30.799 Yeah, no, I totally agree. 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.920 Although it is, like you said, wonderful those connections that form. 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:41.519 Like, I totally didn't realize that you were working on the next book with Catherine and Adam because Adam's my PhD supervisor. 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:44.480 Um supervision a couple of days ago and mentioned the podcast. 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:46.160 I was like, oh, I know Brian. 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:51.920 Um so yeah, it's like crazy in terms of like the connections that are there that we aren't aware of. 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:57.119 So I think hopefully more of these projects um and more of that connection building will be really useful. 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:02.400 Yeah, and the cross-collaborating, I think there's so much we can learn from experiences that we have. 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:08.720 And one of my favorite things about this podcast itself is just how much I learn that I'm not learning. 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:10.640 And let me put this in context now. 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:41.920 I've heard so many stories from people that when I grew up in a suburb of Los Angeles in California, their stories are similar to mine, and they're in France, or they're in Canada, or they're in Wisconsin, or wherever in the world, and we're having a paralleled experience as far as um what it was like to be a closeted person in the 90s and early 2000s, and going through school and all of these things, we're having paralleled experiences, even though we're different places in the world. 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:59.759 And so to understand the world as a functioning microcosm, as this this well, macrocosm, that um little things are happening around the world I that are exact that can feel exactly the same or be so reminiscent of each other, I think. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:09.039 That's powerful in this idea of connection, because we often will feel isolated in our feelings, in our situations. 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:10.720 Like only this would happen to me. 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:12.880 This can't happen to anybody else. 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:17.039 But in reality, there's someone in the world who's going to do something similar. 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:21.680 And if you have the opportunity to connect with those people, it's honestly life-changing. 00:22:53.050 --> 00:23:00.090 Yeah, no, I think like usually if I think back to there was a school where I first became an assistant head um a few years ago. 00:23:00.170 --> 00:23:03.690 And I didn't stay there for too long for very various reasons. 00:23:03.930 --> 00:23:08.250 But I was the only um LGBTQ plus member of staff. 00:23:08.410 --> 00:23:13.850 I'm sure there must have been others statistically, um, if nothing else. 00:23:14.090 --> 00:23:18.009 Um, but yeah, that did feel very lonely and isolating at times. 00:23:18.090 --> 00:23:30.250 But the thing that got me through it was first of all the wider network beyond not just like here, but like in other countries through podcasts like During Education and Bride and Progress. 00:23:30.650 --> 00:23:39.850 Um, and also then through talking about those with other people, the allies that I kind of got in school because of that as well. 00:23:40.090 --> 00:23:49.930 Um, so yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for the fact that we're not as isolated as we feel that we are sometimes, and there's there's ways out of feeling like that. 00:23:50.250 --> 00:23:51.769 Yeah, absolutely. 00:23:52.009 --> 00:24:03.130 So thinking about you've already named one resource, which is which is the podcast, uh, Pride in Progress, um, and just podcasts in general, like finding podcasts that'll help you with whatever you're doing. 00:24:03.289 --> 00:24:11.930 It could be research on on your academic side, it could just be a self-help podcast that you need to listen to because it helps get your regressions out, whatever the situation is. 00:24:12.090 --> 00:24:19.450 But I'm curious if you have other resources, educational or otherwise, that you want to share with people that you think are helpful. 00:24:19.690 --> 00:24:28.890 This could be for use in the classroom, it could be for guidance for administrators, just some tip inside information. 00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:39.610 I I think probably um Paul Baker, who is uh, I think professor of linguistics over here, um, he's written two books that are really interesting. 00:24:39.769 --> 00:24:41.610 One is about the history of section 28. 00:24:41.690 --> 00:24:45.690 So for anyone who wants to know more about that, that is really comprehensive. 00:24:45.850 --> 00:24:51.610 Um, but also if there's anyone interested in the linguistics side of things, he's also written a book about the history of Polari. 00:24:52.170 --> 00:25:02.970 Um so that was a secret gay language of the 1960s, um, where people were speaking in a bit of a code in order to avoid prosecution. 00:25:03.130 --> 00:25:05.130 Um, so those two books are really good. 00:25:05.210 --> 00:25:13.850 And I think I know you've mentioned like the book that you're producing for the series, but I think the first book in that series is out, The LGBTQ plus leadership and education. 00:25:14.009 --> 00:25:17.050 Um I've written a chapter, but it's not as good as some of the others. 00:25:17.130 --> 00:25:19.130 So but the others are are amazing. 00:25:19.210 --> 00:25:21.130 So I really recommend those books. 00:25:21.450 --> 00:25:24.250 I have it, I've read it, it's somewhere in here. 00:25:24.570 --> 00:25:35.690 I have like 600 books in my in my library, but uh but um I have it somewhere in here, and I'm so excited to be included in this series. 00:25:35.769 --> 00:25:43.690 So for those those of you who are listening who are curious about educational leadership from the queer perspective, this book series is gonna be fantastic. 00:25:43.850 --> 00:25:53.130 There's also a book out about LGBTQ research that I got a few gosh, I probably have had it for a year and a half now. 00:25:53.289 --> 00:26:09.769 And it's helped me immensely with figuring out how like it's a book about LGBTQ research, but it's helped me immensely in figuring out how to run an LGBTQ nonprofit and where we should be looking for data at and how we can support ourselves for funding in a time where inclusivity is a bad word. 00:26:10.009 --> 00:26:19.210 Um and so it's been it's been really fascinating connecting and gathering these ideas from folks who are doing the same work around the world. 00:26:19.370 --> 00:26:25.930 So, yes, all the resources, folks, just get out there and it's a quick Google search away. 00:26:26.090 --> 00:26:54.650 And honestly, I'm gonna do better about making sure these resources are on our website because uh we should have like a book list of things that our our board are using, and and anybody who comes on the podcast, if they want to share the list of books that they're working on, and we'll just create a a list of direct links to buy um because we should be supporting other queer researchers and educators um in our work. 00:26:54.730 --> 00:26:55.769 There's not enough data. 00:26:55.930 --> 00:26:58.970 We need more data, and so we need you out there doing it. 00:27:00.090 --> 00:27:16.250 Um I it's funny, I have a master's of fine arts, which in the US, I'm not sure if if it's the same in the UK, but in the US it's a terminal degree, meaning that it has the equivalency of my uh of a doctorate in my field, um, which is theater. 00:27:16.570 --> 00:27:27.610 And I am such a nerd that I'm like, I have this terminal degree and I'm desperately wanting a doctorate because I just like writing uh and researching. 00:27:27.690 --> 00:27:41.850 Um, so I'm learning to funnel that into actual publication as opposed to um spending money to have somebody critique my writing um for several years. 00:27:42.810 --> 00:27:45.370 People can pay money to critique my writing. 00:27:45.529 --> 00:27:58.330 Um but I it's so funny that my brain is like, I really, really want this doctor, even though my work has moved beyond it. 00:27:58.410 --> 00:28:00.570 I've just kind of pushed myself there. 00:28:00.650 --> 00:28:03.610 But and some of that happens with circumstance, right? 00:28:03.769 --> 00:28:08.410 Starting this nonprofit was like a game changer for me in the way that it's grown in the last few years. 00:28:08.570 --> 00:28:16.250 Um, because it's just connected with me or connected me with so many different people um that it changed my trajectory. 00:28:16.410 --> 00:28:25.690 And so even though my heart is still going get that doctorate, at the same time, I'm like, I don't have time because all the things that the doctorate would have gotten me, I'm already doing. 00:28:25.930 --> 00:28:35.130 Um so I kudos to you, and I wish you so much uh you know luck and um lots of herbal tea. 00:28:35.370 --> 00:28:38.330 It's calming, uh, especially in the stressful time. 00:28:38.730 --> 00:28:39.130 You need coffee. 00:28:40.410 --> 00:28:41.050 Yeah. 00:28:42.170 --> 00:28:46.170 I'm like, if I need a chill, I'm like, give me a mint tea. 00:28:46.330 --> 00:28:51.610 And if I need to write, it's I've had I had two coffees this morning before I started writing. 00:28:51.769 --> 00:28:54.330 Um so I I got that vibe. 00:28:54.490 --> 00:29:00.250 Before we wrap up, I want to talk a little bit about what is bringing you joy right now. 00:29:00.410 --> 00:29:02.890 What is your moment of queer joy? 00:29:03.450 --> 00:29:11.850 I think we've like talked about it already, but the work that I'm doing on the PhD, I think is the thing that is definitely bringing me the queer joy at the minute. 00:29:11.930 --> 00:29:15.769 I think firstly being able to learn about so many different perspectives. 00:29:15.850 --> 00:29:19.529 I'm in the literature review phase, so I'm doing a lot of reading. 00:29:19.610 --> 00:29:35.769 Um, and finding out about those different perspectives over time, I think gives me a lot of queer joy, but also the networks that I'm building um as a result of it, and both like learning um about those experiences, but building that sense of community and solidarity as well. 00:29:35.930 --> 00:29:40.970 Um, I think those are probably the things that I would say are giving me the most joy at the moment. 00:29:41.370 --> 00:29:42.090 I love that. 00:29:42.250 --> 00:29:45.529 If you don't mind me saying, I love talking with nerds. 00:29:45.690 --> 00:29:48.730 Um, and I say that as a self-proclaimed nerd. 00:29:48.890 --> 00:29:55.450 Like, and I this this word I say with so much love because nerds are my favorite people. 00:29:55.610 --> 00:29:57.050 And I will be real. 00:29:57.210 --> 00:30:05.930 I was a drama kid, I was a choir kid, and I was a band kid, and I was in like advanced placement classes in school. 00:30:06.250 --> 00:30:11.289 I was the biggest nerd, and I couldn't be happier about it. 00:30:11.529 --> 00:30:21.370 Um last before we go, what do you want to say to queer educators who are listening right now? 00:30:21.850 --> 00:30:32.090 I think going back to what we've said about like those different connections and the feelings of isolation that can sometimes happen, I think more than anything, remembering that you are not alone. 00:30:32.250 --> 00:30:48.810 Um, you may not have someone that you can talk to in your school, um, someone that you see face to face every day, but there is a host of people um nationally, internationally, um, who are willing to welcome you as part of the community. 00:30:49.050 --> 00:30:58.570 So I think joining in like things like this, the podcast, but also that conference, um, I think are a really powerful mechanism for that. 00:31:02.570 --> 00:31:05.370 Thank you for being a part of Queering Education. 00:31:05.529 --> 00:31:07.930 This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast. 00:31:08.090 --> 00:31:13.130 Take what you need from this conversation and bring it back into your classroom and your students. 00:31:13.289 --> 00:31:14.730 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:31:14.890 --> 00:31:17.769 Until next time, keep showing up.