WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.760 Queer folks are always gonna be here. 00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:02.479 Right? 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:08.160 We may have to change the way that we move in the world, but that doesn't mean that we're going anywhere. 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:17.280 Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be. 00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:18.800 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:26.960 This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom. 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:29.359 Alright, let's do the work. 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:36.880 Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Queering Education. 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:38.799 I am your host, Brian Stanton. 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:44.320 My pronouns are they, them, and I have the privilege today of sitting down with Sinea Thomas. 00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:45.119 Hi, Sinea. 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:45.759 How are you doing? 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:46.560 I'm good. 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:47.600 How are you? 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:49.200 I am so good. 00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:50.640 It is a lovely evening. 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:53.280 It is my Friday, which is always nice. 00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:58.240 Can you tell everybody who's listening a little bit more about yourself? 00:00:58.560 --> 00:00:59.359 Absolutely. 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:00.079 Um, Dr. 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:01.359 Sinea Thomas. 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:03.840 Um, Shinea in this space is perfectly fine. 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:05.519 I use he or she pronouns. 00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:08.719 I don't use they, but in all else fails, please use doctor. 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:11.760 Um, I am originally from Hampton, Virginia. 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:16.719 Um, so I always like to say I'm from the place where Alan Irison and Missy Elliott uh come from. 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:19.040 And so that's a smiley claim to fame. 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:19.599 I love that. 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.200 Um, in good company. 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:30.000 Um, and I uh, but I am in um the Washington, DC area, um, Temple Hills, Maryland, specifically. 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:35.120 I always like to say, um, yeah, great things come from Temple Hills. 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:42.560 So uh I am uh like I said, I am a overall, I am a social worker. 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:44.319 Um, and so that's my trade. 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:50.319 Uh and then I moved into education um kind of five years into my career. 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:58.560 Um, and so I've been a social worker, particularly in schools, working with um uh working in special ed accessibility education. 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:06.400 And what I found was that nobody really did queerness very well, nobody did teaching about human sexuality very well. 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:12.319 Um, and so I ended up going back to school um to Widener University and becoming a sexual health educator. 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:15.599 So I'm a certified um sexuality educator. 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:48.479 Um, and then I taught at University of Southern California at their School of Social Work for 11 years, um, moved from there, went to University of Maryland School of Public Health, where I was their LGBTQ training specialist and clinical assistant research professor, where I helped build their sexual, sexual and diversity uh learning community in their School of Public Health, um, helping teach other uh social workers, service providers, counselors about um being uh about working with queer and trans folks. 00:02:48.639 --> 00:03:00.560 Um and so when I moved from there, I became the executive director for um the executive director of accreditation for the council on social work education um and stayed there. 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:03.599 And then I helped kind of help people become accredited. 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:06.719 So I was like the accreditor for the social work education schools. 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:22.879 So I was over at the time 952 programs um for social work, um helping schools get accredited on the BSW, um, the MSW, and now we have DSW level um folks who can be accredited now, which is awesome. 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:34.879 Um and so from there I have moved to doing a lot of teaching, workshops, speaking events, really kind of helping people get to the other side of kind of what's going on right now. 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:38.159 Um, and so I love teaching about human sexuality studies. 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:53.199 I love teaching about um diversity, equity, inclusion, um, and just helping people be a little bit more prepared and aware of what's going on so they can stay um as uh committed to this mission as much as possible. 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:59.599 Um and then I always forget this, but this is probably the most fun thing about me is that I'm a uh grief counselor and a deaf doula. 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:02.479 Um, and so I help people cross to the other side. 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:05.680 I worked um in the morgue for a couple of years. 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:07.439 I do grief education. 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:12.000 Um, and I know that sounds all a little bit of everywhere, but to me it all makes sense. 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:19.120 Um, and so I always like to say I have literally worked from death to life in the social work and education realm. 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:21.439 Um and so yeah, that's that's a little bit about me. 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:26.079 Um oh, and I guess for me, I identify as queer, but I also identify as non-binary. 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:38.240 Um, and I will say as a person who is black and non-binary, it's important for me to say that because I don't really find a lot of non-binary um representation um and speaking out about how gender plays into the workplace. 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:40.079 And so that's that's me. 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:44.079 Yeah, there's so much in there that I love in your introduction. 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:50.560 First and foremost, like, wow, the the breadth of work that you've been able to do is just fantastic. 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:52.959 Um, because sometimes we look back. 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:54.800 I don't know if you've had this experience. 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:58.319 I will sit sometimes and I'll look back and I'll be like, wow, I really did all that. 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:02.000 And then there's sometimes where I'm like, I haven't done enough yet. 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:04.079 Why haven't I done this yet? 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:11.600 And um, so I just want to just have that moment for you of wow, look at the amount of work that you've done. 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:16.480 And you had said that you know you moved into the education realm about five years ago. 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:19.120 But I would argue that you've probably been there the whole time. 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:30.399 That even working as a social worker, social workers are the backbone, maybe not the backbone, but the heart of most schools, right? 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:48.399 It is where the children feel the most safe, especially if you're working in a K-12 environment, and especially if you're working um in the disability community or with marginalized communities, because they need that person, that go-to who's just like in their corner. 00:05:48.879 --> 00:06:03.680 And I've seen so many beautiful relationships um between social workers and students, and just how students can be an entirely different human being when they're in that space than they are in other classroom settings. 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:12.160 Um, and so like first and foremost, I just value so much the work that you're doing. 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:17.439 There's this huge push and also pushback on social emotional learning right now. 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:19.920 And I think that it's so imperative. 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:33.519 And I think about the counselors that I had as a child and how many of them were just like an extension of a discipline policy, a um someone who is there to help with behavior. 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:40.319 And then also there's that random person who's gonna tell you that you can't go to the college that you want to because you didn't take the right classes after that. 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:40.879 Right. 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:41.680 Right. 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:46.879 And that's what counseling was um when I was in high school. 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:58.639 And so I really loved re-entering education as an educator and seeing some of the things that have transformed as there's been this push for social emotional learning. 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:13.439 Um, and I think emotional literacy needs to be like more of the I think we could probably, if we have to get rid of SEL, just like you know, DEI is on the bad word list. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:14.639 And I will say this. 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:21.040 I know I found my people when they're like, I love teaching about these things that the government hates because I am that person also. 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:25.199 Uh I'm like, oh, you you're gonna give me a bad word list, I'm gonna say them all. 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:26.000 Uh yeah. 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:27.040 Can say inclusion? 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:28.560 All right, this is my book about inclusion. 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:30.879 And I'm gonna give you alternatives, right? 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:32.160 I'm like alternatives. 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:33.360 So we can say other things. 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:34.000 Yes, absolutely. 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:35.199 And here we go, ready? 00:07:35.360 --> 00:08:05.519 I think emotional intelligence is the phrase that we can effectively use right now that is still centered on social emotional learning, but it gives the idea of like, oh yeah, you're teaching the children about their emotions, as opposed to like social emotional learning, kind of gives this context of like it's about society and it's about socialization and all this stuff, and socialization then gets compared with socialism, and like people go on this alliteration fan fan. 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:08.959 Yeah, we had to struggle too, right? 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:36.320 And and I became the executive director of accreditation at like with when our when our president came into office, I was also there, and so there was a not only attack on like how tools are structured and what we teach, but then I was watching in real time the dismantling of just like all the programs and having to figure out what do we say, what don't we say, how can we move in these spaces and still get the work done. 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:40.000 And I think what you know, I think I kind of have a little bit of activist background. 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:47.759 So I also am very adamant about like yeah, we have always had to talk in different languages to each other, right? 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:50.720 We've always had to switch terms and words, you know. 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:56.240 It doesn't matter what we're doing, we're always going, you know, social work is always going to exist, right? 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:57.519 In some way, shape, or form. 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:00.639 It has for thousands of years, it just hasn't been called social work. 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:13.679 Um, and so I I've really, you know, in that position, I've really had to learn and teach provost, directors, you know, program, you know, program directors, what are the ways that we can still do the work, even if we can't use the words, right? 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:15.519 But that doesn't mean the work still doesn't get done. 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:21.759 So yeah, 100% having to speak a different code is definitely like my my second talent. 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:31.360 And I honestly believe that like queer people in general have been really good at code switching their whole life because we had to do it in the closet without realizing that we were doing it. 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:39.600 It's very similar to multilingual learners who are transliterating, they are they are code switching their language to understand. 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:42.159 Uh, and the same thing happens with with queer people. 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:50.639 We code switch so that we can understand or rather make the words that we're saying fit into a structure that doesn't feel right. 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:51.039 Yeah. 00:09:51.200 --> 00:10:01.679 And and we've been so good at it because, you know, when you're in the closet, you've got to, you've gotta say, you know, my girlfriend instead of my boyfriend, or you've gotta be like, yeah, bro. 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:14.480 Uh and you know, I'm a Southern California person, so for a long time I've said dude, but I will be honest that my 19-year-old daughter and my 12-year-old daughter have got me saying bruh like crazy nowadays. 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:17.519 Uh not to mention my students when I was teaching middle school. 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:20.960 So I'm gonna tell people that bruh is now a gender neutral term. 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:26.639 Um I'm a seven-year-old and I am bruh all day, and you know, all day. 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:28.000 Bruh right back at them. 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:31.360 So it's like that's right. 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:34.320 I will literally be like, don't bruh me, bruh. 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:34.960 Bruh. 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:47.440 Um, you said something, and I'm curious to talk about it, which is people just aren't doing gender and sexual education right. 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:55.519 So I am curious, what is the right way to look like in your in your in your world, in your realm? 00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:58.399 Like, what does it mean to teach it the right way? 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:10.159 Because I agree with you when I listen to mostly like teenagers and young adults talk about their sexual education experiences, it's like so limited. 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:13.200 It's things that I learned 30 years ago. 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.120 Yeah, it should have evolved by this time. 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:16.720 So, what does it look like to you? 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:19.120 So, some of it is fear-based, right? 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:29.279 You know, I don't know if you had the classes where they show you the really bad pictures of folks as genitals and they're infected with all sorts of, and they're like, hey, if you're gonna have sex, this is what's gonna happen to you. 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:46.399 Um, conversations about what your body is supposed to look like, what your body's supposed to do, don't do this, sexual education that keeps genders separate from each other, sex separate from each other, um, not doing a good job of teaching inclusive sexual health education. 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:58.000 Um, and so one thing that I noticed, especially when I was working with high schoolers, is that we, especially when you have kids that are just figuring out their bodies with themselves, with each other. 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:04.000 Um, we don't do a good job of teaching like how to protect how you're exploring, right? 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:07.840 And how do you use these tools that we have in order to protect yourself? 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:15.360 How do we talk to all students about being, how do we talk to all students about the journey of sexuality being a spectrum, right? 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:18.080 I don't know who you're going to be in 10 years. 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.480 I don't know who I'm gonna be in 10 years, right? 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:31.840 So I think sometimes I think the way that I like to teach, um, whether it's kids, whether it's adults, is that all of our gender and sexuality, sexuality is a spectrum, right? 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:38.639 We find, we are going to find ourselves in different spaces, in different places, in different times with different people. 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:41.279 And so what happens if your body changes? 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:46.159 Um, what happens if you're attracted to a person that you didn't think you're being attracted to? 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:51.120 What does it look like to be physically attracted to somebody versus emotionally attracted to somebody? 00:12:51.279 --> 00:13:00.240 Um, even if you identify as cisgender and heterosexual, that might not be in six months, two years, 10 years, right? 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:04.799 And so I like to talk to everybody as if we are all on the gender spectrum. 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:06.720 We are all on the sexuality spectrum. 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:13.679 So, how do we prepare ourselves for the change and the shift as opposed to thinking about us being static human beings? 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:20.879 We're always going to be this all the time, and not helping people understand what the options are, especially as they grow and evolve. 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:30.080 Um, and I have found that when I teach that way, and you know, I I know one of the things that people are just like, you know, what are the best things about trainings? 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:40.080 I love when people, especially cisgender heterosexual people, come to me after a sexuality training and they're like, I didn't know I could wear pants and still be a woman, right? 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:48.639 I didn't know I could be emotionally attracted to men, or or I didn't think about me hanging out with my bros, right? 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:54.559 And having this like good time and that be emotional attraction, and that doesn't mean I have to be physically attracted to them. 00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:00.960 It some of it is the breaking of the heteronormative stereotypes that really get me excited, right? 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:07.440 Like people come into sexuality education and they're like, yes, I want to know about queer folks, LGBTQ folks, tell me that. 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:14.559 I I like to also frame it as like that's not the it's not the exception, that's the rule, right? 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:16.080 We are all on a spectrum. 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:19.519 So there's all there's a level of learning that we can all do. 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:30.159 Um, and so when I have people come up and they're like, I learned something new about myself today, I'm giving myself permission to live and to learn and to love in a way that I didn't think about before. 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:31.440 I think that's really exciting. 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:33.840 So that's yeah, you say, What's wrong with it? 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:40.000 I just think that we teach from a static place without thinking that human beings grow and change over time. 00:15:10.649 --> 00:15:20.889 Well, and it seems like it shouldn't be such a wild or radical idea because I mean it's not a perfect system, but people have been talking about this Kinsey scale for years. 00:15:21.610 --> 00:15:22.889 Oh gosh, yeah, still. 00:15:23.049 --> 00:15:27.209 And and there's still talk about it, even though it really is outdated. 00:15:27.529 --> 00:15:32.490 But it gave us this idea that sexuality is a spectrum. 00:15:32.729 --> 00:15:35.849 Yes, and and so then you just adapt that. 00:15:35.929 --> 00:15:40.649 And I think about things like the socialization of gender and how people just don't understand that. 00:15:40.729 --> 00:15:44.250 And I thought, think about how I had sexual education, right? 00:15:44.490 --> 00:15:55.370 I literally remember in fifth grade, I don't have a lot of memories of like elementary school, but in fifth grade, I remember our sexual education class because they did divide us by what they perceived as our genders, right? 00:15:55.689 --> 00:16:15.129 And then they like had the teacher put his arm out like this, and they were like, You see what's different between me, and then they had a student put their arm out there, and it was just like he had dark hair on his arm, and then the boy had no hair on his arm, and like this is like what this is like, you know, as you become a man, you're gonna be hairy and whatnot. 00:16:15.209 --> 00:17:01.529 But this is a socialization thing too, because then young women go into life going, Oh god, my arms are growing hair, my body is growing hair, but only boys are supposed to do that, and we're teaching the socialization because we've separated these things, and we're not teaching this is a socialization, this is a beauty standard, this is uh this is an expectation in only certain areas, yeah, and that we shouldn't judge anybody regardless of what their body looks like, because I know quite a few men who don't have a lot of body hair, and I know women who grow a lot of body hair, self-identifying, you know, uh men and women who don't have body hair that do have body hair. 00:17:01.689 --> 00:17:14.890 Um and then I know trans non-binary people who like run the spectrum of those things, and it really is that it's a spectrum, and the gender side of it is socialized, you know. 00:17:15.130 --> 00:17:23.049 We learn these behaviors, we learn what it means to be a boy, we learn what it means to be a girl, and oftentimes it happens before we're even born. 00:17:23.289 --> 00:17:24.569 The things start. 00:17:24.809 --> 00:17:25.450 Oh, 100%. 00:17:26.089 --> 00:17:35.210 Parents will be like, oh, gender reveal, maybe not gender reveal, but they will know the gender or whatever, and they'll get blue things and they'll get pink things. 00:17:35.850 --> 00:17:44.730 Not talking about the history of color and how pink used to be a very masculine color, and blue was a very feminine color, and it's changed over the centuries. 00:17:44.970 --> 00:17:49.690 You know, nobody wants to talk about that history because it proves our point. 00:17:50.250 --> 00:18:14.009 But sometimes these things happen, uh, you know, in in the womb, you'll be told little man or little lady, and you're gonna be daddy's little girl, and you're like these things are starting to come to you, and you're developing, and then these expectations are placed upon you before you're even born. 00:18:14.250 --> 00:18:15.289 Yeah, I like to tell you. 00:18:15.450 --> 00:18:16.890 And I think that's so wild. 00:18:17.210 --> 00:18:18.730 I always like to tell the story. 00:18:18.810 --> 00:18:22.730 Um, so I have a little kiddo, that right now we are we are in boy land. 00:18:22.970 --> 00:18:25.370 We are we are hardcore in boy land right now. 00:18:25.529 --> 00:18:28.810 Um, but when I was pregnant, I didn't want to find out. 00:18:28.890 --> 00:18:33.690 Um, and that was to my queerness, I was just like, no, whoever, whoever comes out, I still gotta take care of them. 00:18:33.930 --> 00:18:34.090 Right? 00:18:34.330 --> 00:18:36.170 So I'm very adamant about it. 00:18:36.810 --> 00:18:37.930 It really doesn't matter to me. 00:18:38.090 --> 00:18:47.930 Um, and so you know, I remember like, yeah, I didn't have a gender reveal, but like my family, who is where we're from the south, um, black, and they were just like, Well, you gotta let me know. 00:18:48.009 --> 00:18:49.289 Like, tell me what the gender is. 00:18:49.370 --> 00:18:50.970 I was like, Well, first of all, I don't know. 00:18:51.130 --> 00:18:53.850 Um, and they were like, Well, how are we going to like buy clothes? 00:18:53.930 --> 00:18:56.170 And I was like, Well, my baby needs clothes. 00:18:56.250 --> 00:19:00.650 Um, and so what I ended up having was a baby shower that was like superhero themed. 00:19:00.890 --> 00:19:03.210 So we just won everything was superhero themed. 00:19:03.289 --> 00:19:03.610 It was fine. 00:19:03.690 --> 00:19:05.690 I had plenty of clothes, everything was fine. 00:19:05.930 --> 00:19:14.570 So the day that my child was born, I remember, and thank goodness that the person, the midwife that birthed um that birthed my kid was was queer. 00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:19.370 Um, and she asked me, she said, like, when my when your baby comes out, like, what do you want me to tell you? 00:19:19.450 --> 00:19:20.890 Like, do you want to know sex? 00:19:21.050 --> 00:19:23.050 I was like, nope, just put the baby in my arm. 00:19:23.370 --> 00:19:24.890 At this point, it really doesn't matter. 00:19:25.050 --> 00:19:29.850 Um, and so the room was too full of my friends, like we had too many people already. 00:19:29.930 --> 00:19:31.529 It was it was kind of like a party. 00:19:31.690 --> 00:19:33.930 I I will say it was really a good experience. 00:19:34.170 --> 00:19:47.130 But I remember the moment my kid was born, and I remember the people looking at my kid, and I remember them saying, What a strong baby this is, and I already knew, yeah. 00:19:48.090 --> 00:19:52.890 The baby wasn't even here 2.5 seconds before it was like, We're already, right? 00:19:52.970 --> 00:20:11.289 We're already putting the things on them as soon as, and my heart dropped a little bit because I was like, dang, I was just like, I and in my mind it was like, yeah, you didn't tell me, but it was like you're already putting the emphasis on strength and strong and what this kid looks like before they can even scream or cry, right? 00:20:11.450 --> 00:20:12.890 So yeah, a hundred percent. 00:20:12.970 --> 00:20:25.210 Like, and that has been the battle, kind of as as I, as a black, queer, non-binary parent raising this kiddo in a world where I want them to choose who they want to be and explore. 00:20:25.289 --> 00:20:27.289 You know, we're a peppa pig household. 00:20:27.450 --> 00:20:30.650 Um, you know, we love colors and rainbow and stuff here. 00:20:30.810 --> 00:20:39.769 Um, but you know, what happens when you're in the school system and people teach our kid to, you know, boys have to use a boy bathroom, girls have to use a girl's bathroom, um, boys do this. 00:20:39.930 --> 00:20:41.769 You have to play with trucks and toys. 00:20:42.009 --> 00:20:44.570 Um, it has really been a wrestling match. 00:20:44.650 --> 00:20:59.050 Um, that that and it just take for me, it just takes teaching and educating on a whole other level because I also want people to realize that what you are talking about and what you are teaching now is not going to be the same in five years, 10 years, 15 years, right? 00:20:59.130 --> 00:21:04.730 We have to give all people the ability to be able to live and grow and evolve the way they should. 00:21:04.810 --> 00:21:06.330 So, yeah, I 100% agree. 00:21:06.410 --> 00:21:08.570 I I was definitely in the box in the beginning. 00:21:08.810 --> 00:21:14.570 Um, and then we I I just had to push back a lot um on everybody to make sure my kid had space. 00:21:14.890 --> 00:21:22.090 Well, and that's the part that people don't realize is socialization is happening because in that moment they're reinforcing masculine values, right? 00:21:22.170 --> 00:21:25.610 And those masculine values are attributed to male bodies. 00:21:25.930 --> 00:21:30.250 Um but people would be like, no, we were trying to be general. 00:21:30.410 --> 00:21:48.410 Anybody could be strong, any person could be strong, but you know if if if uh they had said something like, Oh, such a beautiful baby, baby boys don't often get that, right? 00:21:48.490 --> 00:21:51.210 Right, they don't often get these characterizations. 00:21:51.289 --> 00:22:08.170 You get a lot of handsome my handsome little man, you get a lot of this like very gendered conversation, and so I I love people who use beautiful baby or strong baby, but they use it in generic terms and they use it regardless of the gender of the baby. 00:22:08.410 --> 00:22:16.090 Um, because quite literally, all babies are strong babies, and all babies are beautiful babies, and any of them could be anything, right? 00:22:16.250 --> 00:22:26.170 Um but when you can tell it's been socialized, it's it's funny because other people don't realize it. 00:22:26.330 --> 00:22:28.810 And there was something else that you said that I found interesting. 00:22:28.970 --> 00:22:30.009 Give me a give me a second. 00:22:30.730 --> 00:22:32.890 To wind it back. 00:22:34.570 --> 00:22:38.650 Oh, you brought up something that reminded me about my own experience as a parent, right? 00:22:38.810 --> 00:22:46.970 My husband and I, uh, and at at the time, like my you said it just a moment ago that like what you're talking about now is gonna be different in five years. 00:22:47.130 --> 00:22:52.810 And my own experience, like the terminology didn't really exist for queer non-binary people, right? 00:22:52.970 --> 00:22:56.009 So my queer non-binary journeys happened in the last decade. 00:22:56.090 --> 00:23:07.370 I'm 41, like in my 30s, discovering more about my identity, more about who I am, and what gender I identify as, which is like all and none at the same time. 00:23:07.769 --> 00:23:28.170 Um and so at the time when my daughter was in like kindergarten, I wasn't uh I wasn't non-binary, I wasn't using they, them, um, or they he at the time, but I was can I considered myself queer. 00:23:28.330 --> 00:23:34.810 Um and it was kind of like my bridge point to being gender queer, which is more like what I identify as now. 00:23:35.130 --> 00:24:00.410 And she was in kindergarten, she came home, and like every week, and it's hysterical because I was a teacher in the school district that she was work uh that she was in, and so like she went to preschool with all the teachers' kids because we had a special like preschool class for all the teachers' kids at the district, and then she went to kindergarten with all of these kids, and so like every week she was marrying to another one of my friends' kids. 00:24:00.810 --> 00:24:10.970 There were so many weddings happening on campus in this in this kindergarten class, and she was like, But girls can't date, uh girls can't marry girls, and boys can't marry boys. 00:24:11.050 --> 00:24:14.009 And I looked at my husband and I was like, That's weird, right? 00:24:14.170 --> 00:24:16.330 And I was like, Chloe, what do you mean? 00:24:16.650 --> 00:24:23.210 Because like I'm a boy at the time, that's you know, I'm a boy, and Dad Kevin's a boy, so like, what do you mean? 00:24:23.370 --> 00:24:24.330 I'm so curious. 00:24:24.650 --> 00:24:29.289 Well, that's what they say at school, and I was like, okay, well, we know that's not true. 00:24:29.529 --> 00:24:36.650 Uh we know that's not true because your family has, you know, two boys that married each other, and we have uh, you know, Maddie's mom. 00:24:36.810 --> 00:24:38.970 Maddie's mom is married to another mom. 00:24:39.289 --> 00:24:46.570 Maddie has two moms, and so that means two girls can marry each other and love each other, and we know that because we live it. 00:24:46.890 --> 00:24:55.289 Yeah, and so like the fact that the socialization happens and it happens in subtle ways, and children pick up on it because it's not the adults. 00:24:55.450 --> 00:25:06.490 I don't I can't guarantee it, but I don't think it was an adult that was like boys can't marry boys, girls can't marry girls in this school and this setting, because I don't think the adults were officiating these marriages. 00:25:06.730 --> 00:25:08.730 They're happening on the playground, you know what I mean? 00:25:08.970 --> 00:25:09.370 Right, yeah. 00:25:09.769 --> 00:25:16.810 And but the kids pick up on what children say, and then they say it to other children. 00:25:17.130 --> 00:25:31.210 Yeah, and that is where the socialization happens because it's not necessarily about the pressure of the adults so much as the pressure of the child, like your your peers, and that's where socialization is happening versus indoctrination, right? 00:25:31.370 --> 00:25:41.690 Indoctrination is would be the adults saying that this is the way it's supposed to be, and socialization is society, your peers, the people that you're with are saying this is the way it's supposed to be. 00:25:42.250 --> 00:25:49.610 Um I think some of it is also structure, and I and I use the example of like I was always gonna be mommy, that was just my role. 00:25:49.690 --> 00:25:54.890 I believe mother is a gender, it's a whole other conversation, but me being a mother is a gender to me. 00:25:55.050 --> 00:25:59.370 Um, my partner at the time, who was trans masculine, wanted to be Zaza. 00:25:59.529 --> 00:26:01.210 That was the name he wanted to have. 00:26:01.370 --> 00:26:03.130 Oh, we wanted to be right. 00:26:03.210 --> 00:26:04.890 I so did we, right? 00:26:05.050 --> 00:26:11.769 So, but as we were watching Peppa Pig, there's no Zaza on Peppa Pig, right? 00:26:11.930 --> 00:26:20.810 There's a mama, there's a Mommy Pig, there's a daddy pig on Paw Patrol, on some of the other cartoons, there's no Zaza, right? 00:26:20.970 --> 00:26:33.529 So in my kids, I I think some of the framing that that what happened to us is like the things that we were watching, because they were not oriented queerly in a particular way, and because families looked a particular way. 00:26:33.610 --> 00:26:39.210 My my my kid was like, Oh, well, if you're mama, then you have to be daddy. 00:26:39.450 --> 00:26:41.930 All right, like that that's just that's just how it is. 00:26:42.090 --> 00:26:44.170 And then you go, you go to school, right? 00:26:44.250 --> 00:26:46.410 You go to aftercare, you go to daycare. 00:26:46.570 --> 00:26:50.570 Everybody has a mommy and daddy, nobody else has a mommy and a zaza. 00:26:50.890 --> 00:26:59.210 Um, and so that was the thing that we were running into of just and then you know, I you know, as a you know, as an activist, I was just like, oh, what are we gonna put on the birth certificate? 00:26:59.289 --> 00:27:02.650 You know, here in DC, you can have an X if you want to. 00:27:02.890 --> 00:27:07.769 I was just like, Oh, yeah, we're gonna put an X on here because that's what people fought for, right? 00:27:07.930 --> 00:27:14.890 And then, you know, my partner at the time was just like, well, we also have to think about like what happens when your kid goes to school, right? 00:27:15.050 --> 00:27:26.650 What happens when you're around other kids and other people, and that and your kid is and and then then we start talking about gender in schools, like are we going to be able to protect them in a way that we need to? 00:27:26.810 --> 00:27:28.170 Um, and so I think that's hard. 00:27:28.250 --> 00:27:34.410 I think like kids get it from somewhere, but I also think it's like the stuff that we intake just from the world. 00:27:34.490 --> 00:27:36.810 Um, and for us, Peppa Pig did a sin. 00:27:37.450 --> 00:27:39.370 That was that was where that was that was our fault. 00:27:39.769 --> 00:27:41.769 Peppa, I know could you do that? 00:27:41.850 --> 00:27:43.610 I that's horrifying. 00:27:44.009 --> 00:27:47.289 Oh, it's preschool in kindergarten, that's where they're getting you. 00:27:47.450 --> 00:27:49.850 Um so I want to talk a little bit. 00:27:49.930 --> 00:28:11.130 You said that you were working with um the disabled population when you were working in schools and whatnot, and I'm curious to know like if you approach uh gender identity conversations and sexual orientation conversations in a different fashion, or if uh if you find that your methods are are the same working within different populations. 00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:16.650 Yeah, so um at the time when I first started doing social work, I was in special education. 00:28:16.810 --> 00:28:27.690 So a lot of those kids, they were literally, we would label them as learning disabled, but mostly my population was emotionally, we'll call them emotionally disturbed, which is a horrible phrase to use. 00:28:27.769 --> 00:28:32.970 Um, but mostly talking about how does trauma affect the way that you develop and relate to other people. 00:28:33.130 --> 00:28:40.330 Um, and so the way that I teach is I really just come from a basic standpoint of just like here, here are words and terms. 00:28:40.490 --> 00:28:42.570 Do we need to break those down a little more? 00:28:42.730 --> 00:28:44.650 This is where we start using models. 00:28:44.730 --> 00:28:48.970 I use a lot of videos, I use a lot of TV shows in my workshops. 00:28:49.130 --> 00:28:53.450 Um, I like to use media because that's what people are intaking right now, right? 00:28:53.529 --> 00:28:56.330 Everybody's on the TikToks, everybody's on the Instagrams. 00:28:56.410 --> 00:29:00.330 Um, I like charts, I like drawings, I like people to get involved. 00:29:00.410 --> 00:29:10.009 Um, and so I don't want those conversions I don't uh uh and I will also say I was been I've been trained by very beautiful people in the disability justice land. 00:29:10.090 --> 00:29:10.650 Um, Dr. 00:29:10.730 --> 00:29:24.250 Bianca Loriano, Erica Woodland, who's also a social worker, like these people have also given me tools to be able to talk to everybody about their gender and sexuality in accessible ways, um, and giving them different things. 00:29:24.410 --> 00:29:32.090 And you know, I I think one um uh conversation I have um in a workshop is like, I mean, I'm sure you've seen this, like the gender galaxy. 00:29:32.250 --> 00:29:36.410 And then I'm like, this is wonderful, and this is also overwhelming, right? 00:29:36.570 --> 00:29:39.529 So let's also go to the gender unicorn, right? 00:29:39.610 --> 00:29:48.890 Like they're they're like, let's figure out, you know, let's let's start here, and then when we get to the gender galaxy, we can talk about omnisexual, demisexual, all the things. 00:29:49.050 --> 00:29:52.810 Um, and so I don't feel like people should be left out of those conversations. 00:29:53.050 --> 00:30:00.410 Everybody deserves to know about their body, everybody deserves to know about attraction, everybody deserves to love or be loved if they want to, right? 00:30:00.490 --> 00:30:02.330 I think that is a beautiful choice. 00:30:02.490 --> 00:30:07.610 Um, and so I give lots of options to people, um, and that's the way that I like to teach. 00:30:08.009 --> 00:30:14.810 If they want to is such a beautiful phrase because it's so opening to the uh Eros and Ace community. 00:30:15.050 --> 00:30:16.009 Yeah, right. 00:30:16.170 --> 00:30:17.850 And it allows for that consent. 00:30:17.930 --> 00:30:19.050 So I love that so much. 00:30:19.130 --> 00:30:33.610 Yeah, I I've had this conversation, so sorry for those of you who are repeat listeners, but um, I had a really beautiful conversation with some fifth graders a couple uh weeks before the school year ended because it we ended school year in June, so we had a Pride Month. 00:30:33.690 --> 00:30:35.610 Um, Mr. 00:30:35.769 --> 00:30:35.930 Mr. 00:30:36.009 --> 00:30:38.170 Stanton, um, because at school I went by Mr. 00:30:38.330 --> 00:30:40.810 Stanton, I and I go by dad, right? 00:30:40.890 --> 00:30:44.090 Like, because like you, I'm like, oh no, I'm I'm dad. 00:30:44.170 --> 00:30:48.730 That there's no separating that from like it's not a part of my gender identity, it's a part of my identity. 00:30:48.890 --> 00:30:49.450 I'm dad. 00:30:49.529 --> 00:30:49.850 Yeah. 00:30:50.090 --> 00:30:52.890 Um, and so um, Mr. 00:30:53.130 --> 00:30:55.450 Stanton, can I show you my flag? 00:30:55.690 --> 00:31:01.289 And then they showed me their flags, and then some sixth graders were like, but what if you don't like anybody? 00:31:01.450 --> 00:31:08.570 Uh and and one of the other fifth graders, I was like, Oh, so that could be like aromantic or a asexual. 00:31:08.650 --> 00:31:12.410 And I was like, All right, fifth grade, come through with the knowledge. 00:31:12.570 --> 00:31:14.090 Like, I am here for that. 00:31:14.330 --> 00:31:17.529 Um, I want to talk to you about resources. 00:31:17.690 --> 00:31:27.450 Are there resources that you think people should use that'll help open the conversation, especially in places where maybe their children aren't getting good sexual education? 00:31:27.690 --> 00:31:34.570 Maybe parents, uh parent that parents can use to help open the door to the conversation, as awkward as it may be. 00:31:34.730 --> 00:31:36.170 Parents, please have the conversations. 00:31:36.890 --> 00:31:38.330 Please have the conversations. 00:31:38.570 --> 00:31:40.890 Not talking about sex doesn't make it disappear. 00:31:41.130 --> 00:31:42.570 I will attest to that. 00:31:42.970 --> 00:31:44.650 Like, no, they're gonna ask. 00:31:44.730 --> 00:31:46.730 And even if it's not like, are you having sex? 00:31:46.810 --> 00:31:50.730 Like, they're gonna ask about their bodies, what their bodies do, how they function, right? 00:31:50.810 --> 00:31:54.570 Like, kids are gonna ask the questions, and if you don't answer them, they're gonna go to somebody else. 00:31:54.650 --> 00:31:56.009 So you want to be the person. 00:31:56.170 --> 00:32:00.650 Um, I guess first and foremost, parents get the education for yourself, right? 00:32:00.730 --> 00:32:09.130 Like if there is some level of discomfort, if there's past trauma, if you didn't get those resources, I always suggest people to do that for themselves. 00:32:09.370 --> 00:32:15.769 Um, I think there's plenty of um, I'm a part of the American Association for Sex Educators, Counselors, and Therapists. 00:32:15.850 --> 00:32:20.410 If you go to ASEC website, they have wonderful resources there for everybody to learn. 00:32:20.570 --> 00:32:22.490 So I say do it for yourself, right? 00:32:22.650 --> 00:32:30.090 Intake the information, figure out your your own trigger points and your own discomfort, get that so you're able to work with your child. 00:32:30.250 --> 00:32:39.289 Um, and I can't, I'm so sorry that I don't have the resource right now, but there are a set of books um that I think, and I the person's first name is Corey. 00:32:39.450 --> 00:32:42.730 Um, and there's one book that I love to talk to my kid about. 00:32:42.810 --> 00:32:52.490 It's called Um What Babies, uh, Where Do Babies, it's not where do babies come from, but it's a book that is, it's like the colors are really beautiful. 00:32:52.650 --> 00:32:59.610 There's not necessarily a there in the conversations about gender is like um there's sperm. 00:33:00.090 --> 00:33:01.370 Where does it come from? 00:33:01.610 --> 00:33:03.769 A body that has certain parts. 00:33:04.090 --> 00:33:06.170 Not all bodies have those parts. 00:33:06.410 --> 00:33:07.289 There's an egg. 00:33:07.450 --> 00:33:08.810 Where does the egg come from? 00:33:08.970 --> 00:33:12.009 It comes from some bodies, it doesn't come from all bodies, right? 00:33:12.090 --> 00:33:16.490 Like it talks about it general enough to where it applies to all people. 00:33:16.570 --> 00:33:27.450 Um, but it but it does give the specifics, and so that series um that I can pass to you, it has like ones for the littles, one for the middle schoolers, one for the high schoolers. 00:33:27.529 --> 00:33:37.690 And I think um Corey, and I don't want to say his last name because um I'll get it wrong, but it's a beautiful set of books of just like that I use with my kid, um, and it keeps them engaged too. 00:33:37.850 --> 00:33:42.009 Um, and there's plenty also really awesome, you know, sexual health educators out there, Dr. 00:33:42.170 --> 00:33:44.090 Bianca Loriano, um, Dr. 00:33:44.170 --> 00:33:48.810 Lex Um Jay, uh Lex James, who um was the past president of Asec. 00:33:48.970 --> 00:33:53.210 Um, a lot of my good friends are like doing some really great work out there now with kiddo. 00:33:53.529 --> 00:33:57.289 So um, yeah, happy to pass along, you know, some resources to you. 00:33:57.450 --> 00:34:01.769 But I would say first and foremost, parents, do it for yourself first, right? 00:34:01.930 --> 00:34:04.250 We didn't really get great education either. 00:34:04.410 --> 00:34:12.409 So if we can do it for ourselves, work out that discomfort, I think we can have great conversations with our kids no matter what age they are. 00:34:12.730 --> 00:34:13.289 Absolutely. 00:34:13.449 --> 00:34:15.769 And we'll make sure those resources are in the show notes. 00:34:15.849 --> 00:34:20.969 So we'll connect via email and I'll put them in the notes for the episode so everybody can take a look at those links. 00:34:21.210 --> 00:34:27.050 As we wrap up, I want to ask you what in this moment is bringing you queer joy? 00:34:27.769 --> 00:34:30.329 Oh my gosh, I have a book coming out. 00:34:30.489 --> 00:34:30.969 I'm so excited. 00:34:31.210 --> 00:34:32.489 Oh, yay, tell us about it. 00:34:32.809 --> 00:34:34.409 Yes, I'm so excited. 00:34:34.570 --> 00:34:38.409 So this is literally like the combination of like all my many different parts. 00:34:38.490 --> 00:34:44.090 It's called accountable care and identity camaraderie or transgender and queer service providers. 00:34:44.250 --> 00:34:45.849 Um, this is my dissertation. 00:34:46.010 --> 00:34:48.809 Um, and I was like, I don't want to waste this really good material. 00:34:48.889 --> 00:34:50.090 So what do I do with it? 00:34:50.250 --> 00:34:55.130 Um, and so I did my dissertation on queer and trans folks on peer support workers. 00:34:55.210 --> 00:34:56.970 Um, it was during the time of COVID. 00:34:57.050 --> 00:35:01.050 And what I wanted to know was what I went into it with was burnout. 00:35:01.130 --> 00:35:05.849 Like, how what does burnout look like for you all, especially as queer and trans folks? 00:35:06.090 --> 00:35:13.450 The conversation ended up happening to be about like we're burning out because our identities are rubbing up against each other, right? 00:35:13.530 --> 00:35:20.970 Like I'm a queer person working with another queer person, we're using our identities in a particular way, and that's exacerbating burnout. 00:35:21.130 --> 00:35:27.450 And so I think sometimes when we talk about self-care, we only talk about it from the just direct service standpoint. 00:35:27.610 --> 00:35:33.130 My book is arguing that it should also be the responsibility of organizations to care for us as well. 00:35:33.289 --> 00:35:40.170 Um, so also thinking about not just healthcare organizations, but sorry, also thinking about universities and colleges. 00:35:40.329 --> 00:35:49.769 Um, we are doing, as queer folks, we are doing a lot of great work out here and using our identities to be able to find other queer folks, teach other queer folks. 00:35:49.849 --> 00:35:53.769 We're putting our jobs on the line, we're putting our lives on the line. 00:35:53.849 --> 00:35:55.050 There is a lot going on. 00:35:55.210 --> 00:36:00.570 And so I am making the argument that for one, queer and trans folks are the standard, right? 00:36:00.730 --> 00:36:14.809 Like learning about us and learning who we are are the standard in this work in healthcare, but also universities, colleges, healthcare systems have an obligation to make sure that we are cared for so we can keep doing the good work out there. 00:36:14.889 --> 00:36:16.010 So it comes out next week. 00:36:16.090 --> 00:36:17.130 I'm so excited. 00:36:17.210 --> 00:36:19.849 Um, but I feel like I'm birthing another baby. 00:36:20.170 --> 00:36:21.450 Yeah, absolutely. 00:36:21.610 --> 00:36:23.050 I'm in the process of writing. 00:36:23.130 --> 00:36:27.289 Um, I have three publishing contracts right now, and they're kind of in succession. 00:36:27.610 --> 00:36:29.769 So I'm just doing so much writing right now. 00:36:29.930 --> 00:36:35.930 And and they are very much like what we were talking about earlier, where it's like, you oh, you told me not to say the word, I'm gonna say the word. 00:36:37.289 --> 00:36:38.409 You don't want me to write about this? 00:36:38.490 --> 00:36:39.690 Great, I'm gonna write about it. 00:36:39.849 --> 00:36:42.889 Um and I'm so excited about it and and nervous, right? 00:36:42.970 --> 00:36:44.570 This will be my first time writing a book. 00:36:44.650 --> 00:36:47.450 I've written plenty of articles that have been published and whatnot. 00:36:47.690 --> 00:36:50.809 Um and so it really does feel like that. 00:36:50.889 --> 00:36:53.849 Like this, you're spending so much time with it and so much care. 00:36:54.010 --> 00:36:59.690 Um, that it does feel like you your creation is just like this little being that you're bringing to life. 00:36:59.769 --> 00:37:04.010