WEBVTT 00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:11.759 When you see two dads in a math word problem, the focus is on the on the actual addition or subtraction, but the context in the background is sort of subtly just representative. 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:20.960 Welcome to Queering Education, where we challenge what school is and build what it should be. 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:22.480 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:30.640 This is a Teaching While Queer podcast about inclusive teaching, queer pedagogy, and showing up authentically in every classroom. 00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:33.119 Alright, let's do the work. 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:43.759 Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Queering Education, a Teaching While Queer podcast. 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:45.359 I'm your host, Brian Stanton. 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:46.560 My pronouns are they, them. 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:49.600 Today I have the plea excuse me. 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:52.079 Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Derek. 00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:53.600 Hey Derek, how are you doing? 00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:54.240 Good. 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:55.200 How are you? 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:56.799 I am so good. 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:00.399 Can you share with everybody a little bit about yourself? 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:01.200 Yeah. 00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:03.039 Thank you so much for having me. 00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:07.680 It is morning here too, so I've got my coffee right um beside me. 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:10.560 But yeah, so my name is Derek. 00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:12.400 Um my pronouns are he, him. 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:26.239 And um I recently completed my dissertation um at UCLA, um, where I took a look at LGBT inclusive education as a comparative case study in Scotland. 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:36.079 Um so I'm really happy to share some of what I've learned um throughout this interview and excited to talk to you. 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:48.400 I'm so intrigued by this, namely because uh in an earlier episode of Quering Education, I actually had an educator on from Scotland who was sharing their experience. 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:55.599 Um and so I'm intrigued to find out what the research says and how it compares to what his experience was like. 00:01:55.760 --> 00:02:01.760 And um and I don't know, I get fascinated by data, so I'm kind of a nerd. 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:03.680 People know that who are listening. 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:14.240 Um, so let's talk a little bit about what drew you to this subject and and how you ended up studying like LGBTQ inclusive education. 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:16.719 Yeah, so great question. 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:25.360 Um When I started my PhD program, I didn't have an intention to go into this area of research. 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:29.759 Um, this was about 2021 when I had started. 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:35.840 And it was right around the same time um that Florida had passed its don't say gay law. 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:59.680 Um and I think I just did a lot of reflection at that time as a former middle school teacher, um, as a queer educator, queer researcher, um, about the implications behind such a measure in Florida, but also more broadly across the US with everything that was happening within the legal and policy space. 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:11.919 Um, and so I wanted to look at examples of good things happening across the country when it came to LGBTQ inclusive curriculum. 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:17.759 Um, and as you can imagine, like it was a bit of a sobering experience. 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:24.479 Um, I'm based out in California, so I sort of started with my home base to figure out what was going on. 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:38.960 Um, and around I think 2013, California updated its education code to um require LGBT inclusive education and secondary social studies, which was a fantastic step forward. 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:45.360 Um, but the more I dug into it, the more I realized there wasn't a lot of implementation support around that particular policy. 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:53.759 Um, and what I really wanted to learn more about was how is inclusive education being implemented in the actual classroom setting? 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:55.759 How are teachers responding? 00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:00.319 How are they incorporating um particular texts in their lessons? 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:03.199 Um, how are students responding to those lessons? 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:09.360 And so I quickly realized um I needed to look outside the US. 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:16.879 Um, and I literally just did a Google search and Scotland popped up in like, you know, the top of the feed, right? 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:19.839 It was, I think it was like a BBC article or something. 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:36.560 And basically it talked about how Scotland had passed in um 2021 a national mandate around LGBT inclusive education, uh across curriculum instruction, all grade levels, primary, secondary, and most major subject areas. 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:41.279 So the scope of it was nothing like I'd seen before. 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:45.759 Um and so like I was very naturally intrigued to learn more. 00:04:46.000 --> 00:05:02.879 Um and I found the organization that the Scottish government was partnering with, Time for Inclusive Education, it was short by Thai, um, and found their website, looked at some of their resources, and then there were emails, right, to their co-founders, directors. 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:14.240 So I just decided to email, like, hey, you know, would you be interested in talking to me um about your experience and how you got this off the ground in Scotland, how it's going. 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:17.920 Um, and they responded and they were really enthusiastic to engage. 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:51.040 And basically, like two, three months later, I was able to go out there and actually um talk to them in person um in Glasgow and attend some of their teacher training sessions, met a couple of teachers through that those connections, and then was invited to come back a couple of times to observe actual LGBT inclusive themed lessons in both primary and secondary, though most of my time was actually spent in primary schools. 00:05:53.040 --> 00:06:06.639 That is fascinating because as somebody who like talks with queer educators around the world, um oftentimes, especially in the US, we're feeling like we're doing this work alone. 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:09.360 We're doing this like we're holding the banner and whatnot. 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:26.480 And your experience and looking for the research and looking for the resources um kind of echoes what I hear from people in that people are doing the work in the US, but systemically it is not something that is pushed. 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:41.439 And we are also facing an issue in the United States about um the way that our Department of Education nationally is structured, and then how each state has its own set of Department of Educations, and then we have compliance issues, right? 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:45.279 Um, you mentioned in 2013 the changes to California law. 00:06:45.439 --> 00:07:14.879 I can vouch that even in New York, um, New York State, that we are having issues of uh compliance when it comes to gender expansive and inclusive education and sexual orientation education, and there are it's like small groups have to form and nonprofits have to form to help enforce the law because nobody from the legislator, nobody from the judicial system, nobody is enforcing this law within localized educational spaces. 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:24.879 Um, and that partly has to do with our you know battle between state sovereignty and national um power. 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:31.839 Um, you know, the the civil war that's been fought basically since the country was created. 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:51.600 Um and it is so interesting to me that um things can be so radically different when there is a national legislative body saying that we need to do this and also we're partnering with somebody else to make sure that happens. 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:52.480 It's huge. 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:53.920 I mean, it's absolutely huge. 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.439 And um there's a little bit more context too. 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:23.120 Like when the national policy was passed, the the intention was to really integrate LGBTQ inclusive curriculum into everyday subjects, um, math lessons that might have had, you know, two dads or two moms and a word problem, for example, um, looking at different role models that were LGBTQ in the past. 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:30.959 Alan Turing comes up quite a bit in both history lessons as well as math lessons, um, computer sciences, right? 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:36.159 Um, that was really the approach that I saw Scotland taking. 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:47.440 Um and the organization tie that they started to work with, um, you know, most of its funding came and comes from the Scottish government. 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:54.639 So you you have the policy, but you also have implementation support, which makes a big difference. 00:08:55.120 --> 00:09:01.200 Um and the other thing, too, is the actual policy I've I found is not overly prescriptive. 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:09.200 So the Scottish government essentially has said all schools are held accountable to LGBTQ inclusive education and curriculum. 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:17.120 How you go about that, you have a lot of space to figure that out in terms of your own school context. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:23.039 Ty is out there to help figure out like um areas where you might need additional support. 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:27.200 Some schools might be further ahead in inclusive education curriculum than others. 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:34.639 So they have a training model, they have the people workshops, which um are fantastic and had a chance to observe those as well. 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:37.120 Um, but it's not overly prescriptive. 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:48.960 It is aligned to the national curriculum in terms of the um uh sort of their equivalent of what would be national standards, um, experiences and outcomes. 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:59.600 But from there, they really do get to work with their head teacher, their school leaders to figure out what it looks like on the ground in their own context. 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:13.039 Um and I think that's a model that I haven't really seen necessarily replicated in the US, you know, to your point, from like a legislative level on down in terms of implementation support. 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:15.200 Um, I mean, I hope to, right? 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:24.000 Like, um, and at some point I want to do even a deeper comparative study between what I've observed over there and then in the US. 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:27.919 Um, but I think like they have a really good starting point. 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:35.759 Um and I think it also all started because they wanted to address issues of bullying in schools, right? 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:55.519 Like that's and from like a data perspective, when they presented this to the Scottish Parliament, like a lot of that conversation centered around what was happening in terms of homophobia and biphobia and transphobia within schools, how that was manifesting in terms of bullying um um for kids and you know, adverse mental health outcomes, et cetera. 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:59.919 So like it really was a lot about social well-being. 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:06.159 Um in addition to like more of like a rights-based narrative, right? 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:07.360 And equality. 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:23.759 But I think what really took what got my attention was just how much they emphasize the the social well-being and um around students' experiences and making sure kids were protected and safe in classrooms. 00:11:55.129 --> 00:11:55.849 I love that. 00:11:56.009 --> 00:12:07.849 And one of the things that I think that really addresses how to implement this is that it just be something that is worked into the curriculum. 00:12:08.250 --> 00:12:18.729 A lot of what the US does um that I find detrimental, and I think this about a lot of things, uh unpopular opinion. 00:12:18.809 --> 00:12:23.689 There are too many holidays and recognition days, and a lot of them are focused on negative things. 00:12:23.849 --> 00:12:32.409 Uh, a lot of them are commemorative of things that are not great, uh, things for us to be focused on. 00:12:32.649 --> 00:12:40.089 And I genuinely, as a non-religious person, I'm like, let holidays go back to holy days. 00:12:40.250 --> 00:12:51.689 Um, let the people who celebrate them have their have their celebrations, the national holidays that we're having and the commemorations, um, oftentimes to me are morbid. 00:12:51.929 --> 00:12:55.449 Um and that that's my opinion. 00:12:55.610 --> 00:13:01.769 And so, you know, you all can take that as you wish and toss it out the window if you're like, uh, you know, they're stupid. 00:13:01.849 --> 00:13:05.129 Um, and that's fine, um, because we're all allowed to have our own opinions. 00:13:05.289 --> 00:13:17.129 But one of the things about it is that, you know, recognition and um and emphasis comes from those kind of um commemorative things. 00:13:17.289 --> 00:13:26.250 So Black History Month, Pride Month, National Uh LGBTQ week, uh uh transgender awareness week. 00:13:26.409 --> 00:13:40.169 These things create awareness that then gets implemented into school curricula um by the banner holders, usually, the people who are willing to stand up and support their students. 00:13:40.409 --> 00:13:44.250 Um and then it's in an isolated experience, right? 00:13:44.490 --> 00:13:46.009 Um, and I think about it. 00:13:46.169 --> 00:13:53.929 I've thought I've been in professional development where they've been like, make sure you figure out what lessons you're gonna be teaching during Black History Month. 00:13:54.809 --> 00:13:55.449 Why? 00:13:55.689 --> 00:14:00.889 Like, why am I why are people focused on teaching Black history during Black History Month? 00:14:01.129 --> 00:14:03.049 Why isn't Black history just taught? 00:14:03.370 --> 00:14:07.769 Why aren't names just brought into the conversation on a daily? 00:14:08.089 --> 00:14:13.370 Why should as a theater educator, why should I only read a black playwrights play during Black History Month? 00:14:13.529 --> 00:14:18.889 And I'm not saying that somebody's restricting me to only, but there's an emphasis to that. 00:14:19.049 --> 00:14:25.769 Um, there is a schedule to it because we have to prove to the world that we are recognizing Black History Month. 00:14:25.849 --> 00:14:43.289 And so a lot of tokenized um curriculum falls within those recognition months and recognition weeks to try to check off a list um to prove inclusivity and prove uh the work that you're doing. 00:14:43.849 --> 00:15:01.370 Yeah, I I think you know part of what you're you're getting at is like how do we distinguish between um some of those more commemorative like months versus more everyday positive representations of diversity, right? 00:15:01.769 --> 00:15:17.289 Um and I think that when you see two dads in a math word problem, the focus is on the on the actual addition or subtraction or whatever, like in terms of the actual problem, but the context in the background is sort of subtly just representative. 00:15:17.370 --> 00:15:25.610 And you can imagine a kid um or a teacher, right, in that classroom that feels like, oh, that actually does represent my family. 00:15:25.689 --> 00:15:36.089 And that makes a really big deal, um in that it is just an everyday positive representation of what a family might look like, right? 00:15:36.569 --> 00:16:17.929 Um and that's you know, like again, like that approach that I sort of see that some of the feedback that I actually got from um teachers and school leaders around like just doing things during Pride Month or those dedicated periods was that they weren't necessarily like negative in terms of people not wanting to do them, but they did tell me um cases where they feel they felt like it ended up putting a bit of a spotlight on queer youth in schools in a way that maybe they weren't quite ready for, didn't quite know how to navigate. 00:16:18.009 --> 00:16:22.969 Like, hey, let's just kind of put all of everything, all this content into sort of a 30-day period, right? 00:16:23.129 --> 00:16:33.370 Um and you can imagine, I think if you know, if you're like questioning or just in the process of coming out, um, transitioning, like maybe you want a little bit of a step back. 00:16:33.610 --> 00:16:53.129 And so if you disperse that information and that content throughout the school year, I think it kind of just does help normalize things a little bit in a way that is really also great for for kids as well as teachers who, you know, then feel like I can talk about, you know, something that relates to what my family looks like on any any given lesson, right? 00:16:53.209 --> 00:16:56.889 Like um as it sort of makes sense for the particular content, et cetera. 00:16:57.129 --> 00:17:02.250 So um another story that I'll sort of share is uh the library. 00:17:02.490 --> 00:17:11.049 So I was having a conversation with somebody about how do you set up, you know, a library that's inclusive of LGBTQ themed books. 00:17:12.009 --> 00:17:19.529 And, you know, we were sort of talking about like they were initially thinking about this approach where you would have like a dedicated corner or a shelf, right? 00:17:19.610 --> 00:17:22.650 You know, with the labels, history books, literature books, et cetera, right? 00:17:22.809 --> 00:17:24.009 LGBTQ themed books. 00:17:24.089 --> 00:17:27.610 You can walk into Barnes and Noble and like that's kind of what you end up seeing too, right? 00:17:27.930 --> 00:17:43.769 Um and the feedback that I got was the that particular school decided not to do that because they felt that if you do that, then that kid is going to that section of the library, right? 00:17:43.930 --> 00:17:47.610 And so in the process, are you kind of outing? 00:17:48.090 --> 00:18:07.130 Like, are they really comfortable with, you know, they want the book, but like that that access point has some implications as well, versus if those books were dispersed throughout the library, maybe alphabetically or by different sorts of themes, et cetera, um you don't really know, right? 00:18:07.210 --> 00:18:12.170 The kid can just go in, they can grab that book, and it becomes less of an issue in that regard. 00:18:12.330 --> 00:18:19.370 Um, and I thought that was really interesting because I never, one, I've never seen that in some of the more like mainstream bookshops. 00:18:19.529 --> 00:18:31.690 Um, but then it's like this question of you have to always sort of keep in mind that kids can be in various phases, stages of coming out and transitioning, and they have different questions. 00:18:31.769 --> 00:18:35.050 And so um, you really need to meet them where they're at. 00:18:35.289 --> 00:18:44.090 Um, and I think a more immersive embedded approach in terms of curriculum and then also, right, like the way that you set up your library in the school is important. 00:18:44.250 --> 00:18:50.650 It actually does have kind of a ripple effect um on kids' social emotional kind of state. 00:18:50.890 --> 00:18:54.410 So yeah, if there's something the US really loves, it's a label. 00:18:54.570 --> 00:18:57.769 Um the US is really big on it, right? 00:18:57.850 --> 00:19:00.650 It's in every single document that we have to fill out about ourselves. 00:19:00.730 --> 00:19:02.410 There's several options for labels. 00:19:02.490 --> 00:19:10.490 And I think that one of my favorite things about many of the academic libraries that I go to is that they're not sectioned off in that way. 00:19:10.730 --> 00:19:13.930 You've got like the fiction section and the nonfiction section. 00:19:14.170 --> 00:19:17.450 Because in academia, you have to go through. 00:19:17.690 --> 00:19:23.370 I mean, back in the day you had to go through the card catalog, but now you're going through the catalog online and then you gotta go find the book. 00:19:23.529 --> 00:19:26.009 And it doesn't matter what section it's in, right? 00:19:26.170 --> 00:19:36.090 Um and it could be that the sections are ancient history, they're time-based, they're they're fiction books and they are uh alphabetical order or whatever the situation is. 00:19:36.410 --> 00:19:43.690 But in most academic libraries that I've been to, you don't get as nearly as many labels, but you're absolutely correct. 00:19:43.850 --> 00:19:53.930 Like the way that I, as like a non-religious person, I I am Wiccan, it's technically a religion, but I I call it more of a spirituality. 00:19:54.170 --> 00:20:16.250 But it's because when I've gone into those bookstores and I am looking for books, I've I've had to go through the new age section, I've had to go to the spirituality section, I've had to go to the self-help section, I've had to go through so many different labels to find something, and it really does put a spotlight on you when you're standing there. 00:20:16.410 --> 00:20:22.570 I think about it like it's it's a really uh dramatic comparison, right? 00:20:22.970 --> 00:20:33.529 Um it's like going to the pharmacy and standing in front of the condom uh shelf, and it's putting a spotlight on you about your purchase or about what you are looking at. 00:20:33.850 --> 00:20:43.050 And while I do I'm not sex negative at all, other people have you know their own perceptions of like, oh, this person is buying this product, right? 00:20:43.529 --> 00:20:52.009 And so when we are overtly labeling things, we really run the potential risk of outing a student. 00:20:52.170 --> 00:20:59.850 Um, we run the risk of um people being guilty by association. 00:21:00.009 --> 00:21:15.529 And what I mean by that is that for many homophobic people and for many homophobic uh and transphobic behavior that I've seen, you don't necessarily have to be queer to be targeted. 00:21:16.090 --> 00:21:22.970 You can be targeted by association, and so we we're risky, it's risky. 00:21:23.289 --> 00:21:46.170 Yeah, you know, I'm glad you bring that up because the some of what I got to observe um included these pupil student workshops um where Ty goes to um primary schools, and these are workshops specifically for upper primary, so it's kind of the equivalent of like fifth and sixth grade in the US. 00:21:47.210 --> 00:21:59.130 And they're workshops to help kids understand what gender stereotypes are, um, and safe sort of constructive ways that they can combat homophobic language in schools. 00:21:59.529 --> 00:22:10.009 When I was observing some of those workshops, one of the things that really stuck out to me was the framing around gender stereotypes that the the facilitators went in with. 00:22:10.250 --> 00:22:26.330 Um they first sort of started with asking kids to think about all the things that they like to do that might be traditionally associated with the archetype of a boy or a girl, right? 00:22:26.650 --> 00:22:29.690 Um and then they kind of went through this activity of like, well. 00:22:30.330 --> 00:22:32.730 I'm a girl, but I really like superheroes. 00:22:32.810 --> 00:22:35.529 So, like, does that mean that that's like a problem? 00:22:36.009 --> 00:22:40.730 Or I also remember a boy that was in dance class, right? 00:22:40.890 --> 00:22:44.170 Like, and is that also an issue, right? 00:22:45.370 --> 00:22:55.690 That was used as sort of a segue to then talk about how stereotypes can be really hurtful and limiting for kids, no matter what your sexual orientation is, because we all like different things, right? 00:22:55.769 --> 00:22:57.210 And different activities. 00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:15.210 Um, and so that really stuck with me because it made me think about in many ways, I feel like homophobia is a response, it's it's more about policing gender and gender expectations and sort of what it means to be a boy. 00:23:15.370 --> 00:23:17.850 And yes, if you're a boy, then you also have to like girls, right? 00:23:17.930 --> 00:23:20.490 Like there's that sort of gendered kind of expectation. 00:23:20.810 --> 00:23:27.130 Um, and might be a little bit less than about people really caring if you are attracted to somebody of the same sex or gender. 00:23:27.289 --> 00:23:31.370 Um, but it's that gender piece that that that role that you're performing. 00:23:31.450 --> 00:23:33.690 Like I'm thinking of like Judith Butler, for example, right? 00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:35.289 Like gender is performance. 00:23:35.529 --> 00:23:47.850 Um and so it was really good for me to see that like in these workshops, kids really got to have a conversation about gender in a way that was inclusive of everybody, right? 00:23:48.009 --> 00:23:48.970 Allies, et cetera. 00:23:49.130 --> 00:23:56.890 Like everyone got to talk about how they're a girl, they don't like wearing skirts, they're a boy, they really like ballet, right? 00:23:56.970 --> 00:24:00.970 Or they really like art, for example, or theater and music, et cetera. 00:24:01.210 --> 00:24:09.690 Um, and they also got to share some of their experiences of like when somebody would tell them, you're not supposed to do that, you're a girl, you're a boy, right? 00:24:09.850 --> 00:24:28.009 And so then you really start to get into like emotional language and like social emotional learning and processing, which was something that I really I try to narrow in on because it goes back to this idea that um LGBT inclusive education is in many ways about social emotional learning and student well-being, right? 00:24:28.090 --> 00:24:35.850 And so when you bring in um affect, when you bring in emotion into these conversations, kids really learn a lot. 00:24:36.009 --> 00:24:51.930 Um, especially like I'm a former middle school teacher, and being in the fifth, sixth grade kind of space, I I loved it because those kids were so engaged, like they were just asking questions and wanted to clarify things. 00:24:52.090 --> 00:24:59.850 And it it was just so like um like I want to say, like they had no kind of reservations. 00:24:59.930 --> 00:25:09.690 And then I would go to a secondary environment, and it'd be a little bit harder to get those kids to raise their hands and engage on specific topics because everybody at that point becomes so much more self-conscious with their peers, right? 00:25:09.850 --> 00:25:33.050 Um, and so part of what I also try to tease out in my dissertation is like more needs to be done um at the primary level because kids really do have these questions, they are observing things, um, and they need a constructive and safe environment in which to talk about gender, um, no matter their sexual orientation and how they're feeling about things um, you know, with with a teacher, right? 00:25:33.210 --> 00:25:39.450 As opposed to getting um potentially misinformation, disinformation from outside a school environment. 00:25:39.610 --> 00:25:41.850 So I love that. 00:25:41.930 --> 00:25:47.930 I also think that the kids at a younger age, they are very receptive to the information. 00:25:48.410 --> 00:25:58.730 And I get so frustrated when the mentality is we're we're talking about bodies, we're talking about gender, we're talking about sexuality, so must be talking about sex. 00:25:58.890 --> 00:26:00.410 And that's not the case. 00:26:00.810 --> 00:26:01.130 No. 00:26:01.370 --> 00:26:13.850 Um I'm curious through your research, if there's one or two resources you can share with educators who want to update their curriculum to have that more inclusive feel from the get-go. 00:26:14.009 --> 00:26:17.210 I know a lot of people will be getting ready to go back to school soon. 00:26:17.370 --> 00:26:24.330 Um so uh is there something that they can go to just as a starting point? 00:26:25.610 --> 00:26:36.730 Yeah, so there's, you know, um interestingly enough, you know, this is sort of where I'm hoping my research adds something, right? 00:26:37.529 --> 00:26:52.330 I think there's a lot of literature out there that looks at different forms of policy interventions, um, you know, um policies around um homophobia in schools, like language, right? 00:26:52.490 --> 00:26:55.450 Um, and then looking at outcomes, right? 00:26:55.529 --> 00:26:57.930 The number of incidents reported and things like that. 00:26:58.170 --> 00:27:07.769 There isn't as much out there about what LGBT inclusive education looks like pedagogically, right, within the classroom environment. 00:27:07.930 --> 00:27:12.250 Um, but I would sort of offer up maybe a few resources. 00:27:12.730 --> 00:27:19.130 One, um, if if you end up linking, I've published part of my research already around the student workshops. 00:27:19.289 --> 00:27:28.170 Um, and that particular article looks at the student workshops, right, and how the curriculum was created in that context, implemented by the teacher. 00:27:28.250 --> 00:27:45.769 And I really try to pay attention to the instructional strategies employed by these facilitators and teachers and how students are interacting with the material to try to give as much of like a come inside the classroom with me and be a co-observer kind of approach to the writing. 00:27:45.930 --> 00:27:47.529 Um, so there's one piece. 00:27:47.610 --> 00:27:50.410 Um, and I hope to publish more at some point in the future. 00:27:50.570 --> 00:27:58.250 Um, but also um I lean quite a bit on James Banks and his framework for multicultural education. 00:27:58.570 --> 00:28:24.730 James Banks doesn't take up LGBT inclusive education directly, but I think that his integration for content-level integration is really helpful, and it's across four different levels, and it helps teachers think about how that lesson is just contributing to multicultural topics all the way to helping foster agency, self-efficacy for students to use that information to bring about change, right? 00:28:24.810 --> 00:28:26.090 The social action stage. 00:28:26.250 --> 00:28:32.650 And in the middle, you sort of have teachers weaving in content into the established curriculum. 00:28:32.890 --> 00:28:37.690 You also have a stage where teachers are thinking about using more primary resources, right? 00:28:37.930 --> 00:28:42.890 Like actual poetry written by queer authors, right? 00:28:43.130 --> 00:28:48.650 Um, reading about quotes and perspectives from Bayard Rustin, for example, during the US civil rights movement, right? 00:28:48.810 --> 00:28:53.210 Integrating that into your civil rights movement um unit, you know, a study. 00:28:53.370 --> 00:28:56.250 Um, those are all different strategies that you can use. 00:28:56.410 --> 00:29:00.250 And I yeah, I've learned to I've listened to some of your podcasts too. 00:29:00.330 --> 00:29:04.009 And I hear teachers doing some of this as well, which is fantastic. 00:29:04.250 --> 00:29:24.970 Um, but what I like about Banks' model is that for the teachers that are just sort of starting out and may need more background information, may need a little bit of time to get comfortable with different terms, et cetera, like that level of content integration provides a bit of um, what's the word? 00:29:25.130 --> 00:29:39.050 Um more of like a staggered or like a scaffolded approach for them as an instructor um to think about how they can incorporate LGBTQ inclusive themes um step by step, right? 00:29:39.210 --> 00:29:40.970 So definitely banks. 00:29:41.450 --> 00:29:47.769 Um and then um let's see, there are other books too, right? 00:29:47.850 --> 00:29:51.850 In terms of just like some of the more like queer theory, queer pedagogy. 00:29:52.330 --> 00:29:58.330 Um, the work of Shannon Snap, for example, I've come across and found very valuable as well. 00:29:58.570 --> 00:30:06.490 A lot of that work, though, basically is I think more of a a call for teachers and educators to take up the work. 00:30:06.730 --> 00:30:12.970 Um, I think we're still sort of in the beginning stages of what that actually looks like, looks like as a matter of implementation. 00:30:13.210 --> 00:30:30.410 Um, so a good starting point would be multicultural education frameworks, I think, as a start, but then really thinking about how do you adapt that into the in the context of LGBT inclusive themes and the experiences of queer youth um in particular. 00:30:30.970 --> 00:30:31.529 I love that. 00:30:31.610 --> 00:30:35.050 I'll make sure that those resources are shared uh in our show notes. 00:30:35.130 --> 00:30:43.930 So the the link to your article and then I will link um to anybody that we've addressed, any researcher that we've addressed, so that people can access their web pages. 00:30:44.650 --> 00:30:53.130 One other quick thing I would just mention too on that front is for teachers to, and this is again based on just direct observation, tap into students' prior knowledge, right? 00:30:53.289 --> 00:30:58.810 So for all the lessons that I got to see, right, and there's like cognitive theory, et cetera, that supports this, right? 00:30:58.970 --> 00:31:05.769 You want to connect new material in a way that is organic to things that they've learned before. 00:31:06.009 --> 00:31:14.090 Um, so starting off with like what is a stereotype before you talk about gender stereotypes is a good way, like a good link, right? 00:31:14.250 --> 00:31:17.690 As opposed to just parachuting into a topic without a lot of context. 00:31:17.850 --> 00:31:23.610 That's not something you necessarily want to do, um, just as a matter of like, you know, instructional practice. 00:31:23.850 --> 00:31:28.330 But um, that's something that I also would highlight is sort of build a case. 00:31:28.490 --> 00:31:41.289 Um, one teacher that I observed in Scotland um ended up using a poem that was about an out footballer, Xander Murray, um, in Scotland. 00:31:41.450 --> 00:31:47.850 And after the lesson, I had asked him, like, hey, you know, it seemed like the kids really kind of already had some vocabulary. 00:31:48.009 --> 00:31:50.250 This was this was fourth, fourth, fifth grade. 00:31:50.490 --> 00:31:56.330 Seemed like the kids already had some vocabulary in place, you know, to talk about the LGBT community, et cetera, and discrimination. 00:31:56.570 --> 00:32:12.170 And what he told me was actually, I started to introduce these topics around discrimination um and equality in an earlier unit about a month ago when we talked about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, right? 00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:18.170 And you used that as kind of a platform to then build and go into a little bit deeper with other material. 00:32:18.410 --> 00:32:20.970 That's definitely something that I saw teachers doing. 00:32:21.130 --> 00:32:29.050 And I think, you know, from like Thai's perspective too, that they would also support in terms of a more immersive experience and making things a little bit more organic. 00:32:29.690 --> 00:32:42.170 I just also want to point out, US educators, how we have this resource, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that is hardly addressed in our curriculum at all. 00:32:42.570 --> 00:32:43.450 Yeah, I know, I know. 00:32:43.690 --> 00:33:02.410 Um and it's it's wild to me that um we are so driven by storyteller who still tells the story, and a lot of our ancient history is told from this, well, most of it is told from the the perspective of the conqueror, right? 00:33:02.650 --> 00:33:20.250 And so universal declaration was quite literally uh a universal declaration, so many nations involved in the process of creating this, and yet the US, I I mean, I found out about it a year ago. 00:33:21.050 --> 00:33:23.050 Um, but it's been around for a while. 00:33:23.850 --> 00:33:28.330 So, you know, it's something that we need to look at. 00:33:28.650 --> 00:33:31.690 Use as a resource, especially social studies teachers. 00:33:31.850 --> 00:33:39.130 Work work it in there because we discuss so many variations of topics and so many variations of documents. 00:33:39.210 --> 00:33:42.970 Why not add something that gives a more global perspective? 00:33:43.289 --> 00:33:43.690 Yeah. 00:33:44.170 --> 00:33:54.810 When I walked into classrooms and schools, like in the hallways, I saw in in primary schools in particular, right, like the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, right up on the board, right? 00:33:54.970 --> 00:33:59.930 The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, right up on the board, the UK Equality Act, right up on the board, right? 00:34:00.170 --> 00:34:06.009 Um, which includes sexual orientation, gender identities, protective characteristics, right, in the UK context. 00:34:06.170 --> 00:34:23.769 And so um it already started to feel and look a little bit different in terms of the starting point for that conversation within the classroom because you see certain signals and and symbols in the hallway that teachers can rely on and and point to, right? 00:34:23.929 --> 00:34:28.009 And I think that's really important too, because like then they're not doing these things in a vacuum. 00:34:28.090 --> 00:34:33.130 They feel like they do have support from a broader school perspective. 00:34:33.289 --> 00:34:39.849 And you know, I also recognize that like this is some where some of the like critique comes into my own research, and I get it, right? 00:34:39.930 --> 00:34:45.210 Like they're looking at Scotland, I think, is more of then it's not perfect, right? 00:34:45.289 --> 00:34:46.409 It isn't perfect. 00:34:46.650 --> 00:34:57.450 Um, but from a policy perspective, because it's already at the level of the legislature on down, like it's more of an ideal better case scenario, right? 00:34:57.530 --> 00:34:58.809 That you get to work within. 00:34:59.450 --> 00:35:06.570 Um and so it might be harder, right, to transfer into other contexts because there's so much variation, right? 00:35:06.650 --> 00:35:07.530 So much nuance. 00:35:08.090 --> 00:35:15.849 But I think to your point too, you also get to sort of see what's possible when you are in those spaces. 00:35:16.090 --> 00:35:20.170 Um, you know, and I I was uh I grew up in the 90s, right? 00:35:20.250 --> 00:35:23.369 Like this, I I never heard of GSAs when I was in high school. 00:35:23.450 --> 00:35:27.050 You know, I'm kind of like pre that sort of generation, I guess. 00:35:27.289 --> 00:35:33.210 Um let alone like LGBT inclusive themes in my history book or like literature class. 00:35:33.369 --> 00:35:39.530 Like I never I don't think I even probably thought about that once as I was like going through my own coming out process, right, in high school. 00:35:39.690 --> 00:35:49.130 Um, but to walk into these classrooms and have the material there and have kids asking questions and engaging with teachers in a safe space, absolutely mind-blowing. 00:35:49.210 --> 00:35:51.210 Like just like unreal. 00:35:51.610 --> 00:36:04.650 Um and you know, but I also realized that there was a lot done in terms of that policy level to help enable and create that space too. 00:36:04.889 --> 00:36:23.050 Um, and so my hope is that like other countries, other state governments, you know, local authorities, right, can learn from that example and adapt to their own context as it makes sense, because people institutions are gonna be at different stages of readiness, you know, in terms of um adoption as as well. 00:36:23.210 --> 00:36:26.010 But I think it's just important to get started somewhere. 00:36:26.329 --> 00:36:27.289 Absolutely. 00:36:27.530 --> 00:36:36.809 This has been a really great conversation, and I think people will be able to take this back and implement small things, you know, within the things that they have control over. 00:36:36.970 --> 00:36:45.849 And so I love that about um talking with folks on this podcast because I hope that people can take a nugget and like implement it. 00:36:46.170 --> 00:36:49.530 Um as we wrap up, I'm curious. 00:36:49.610 --> 00:36:51.289 You know, you've done a lot of research. 00:36:51.369 --> 00:36:59.050 Uh uh thesis is and dissertation are not uh, you know, easy processes. 00:36:59.289 --> 00:37:02.889 What are you doing right now that just brings you joy? 00:37:03.210 --> 00:37:03.849 Yeah. 00:37:04.170 --> 00:37:20.010 Um, I will admit, I think having completed the research and the dissertation, I'm at the the step now where I get to kind of break it apart into different, hopefully publishable pieces. 00:37:20.730 --> 00:37:24.170 And I say that more so because then I get to share the work. 00:37:24.250 --> 00:37:26.010 And that does bring me joy, right? 00:37:26.090 --> 00:37:28.090 Having this conversation brings me joy. 00:37:28.329 --> 00:37:33.450 Um, I have had the chance to present some of my work at different conferences. 00:37:33.610 --> 00:37:43.289 I have one coming up um in the Netherlands, so I get to travel a little bit as well and meet different people, different scholars from you know, different contexts and things. 00:37:43.450 --> 00:37:44.570 That brings me joy, right? 00:37:44.650 --> 00:38:00.730 To be able to have these conversations and to learn about where where's your university, your you know, local authority, et cetera, at with this particular topic, um, and to start to bounce ideas and and make some connections and share what I've seen and learned. 00:38:00.889 --> 00:38:02.889 I'm a former history major in college. 00:38:03.050 --> 00:38:16.170 So I like I have, I think literally when I look at my research and I go about my writing, I'm like, I I think about this as a matter of historical record that like we were here, we existed, like this happened, like this can happen. 00:38:16.409 --> 00:38:23.930 You know, like we were here, like, and um we are telling that story as a community. 00:38:24.090 --> 00:38:26.409 Um, and that is really important to me. 00:38:26.570 --> 00:38:33.210 Um, because I actually came across gender studies and LGBTQ history in college, and that was life-changing. 00:38:33.289 --> 00:38:36.010 Um, because prior to that, I had no idea. 00:38:36.409 --> 00:38:41.769 So, you know, I didn't know about Stonewall um and and all of the sort of implications there. 00:38:41.930 --> 00:38:47.210 So that brings me joy, I think, is just being able to engage in the narrative and share the research. 00:38:47.610 --> 00:38:48.570 I love that. 00:38:49.369 --> 00:38:51.690 I am curious what your final thoughts are. 00:38:51.769 --> 00:38:55.530 What what is something that you want to leave those who are listening with right now? 00:38:56.090 --> 00:39:10.170 I think for your teachers, you know, definitely, you know, I recognize that we are in a very tough spot politically and in terms of policy in the US, right? 00:39:10.329 --> 00:39:16.809 So I think it's important to also just take a breath as a teacher and educator. 00:39:17.130 --> 00:39:23.690 Um, you know, if you're already listening to this podcast, I feel like you're probably doing some really incredible stuff in your classroom. 00:39:23.769 --> 00:39:25.610 Um, and you should be commended for that. 00:39:25.769 --> 00:39:27.210 Um, it takes bravery. 00:39:27.369 --> 00:39:35.930 Like it really, I think it does, you know, because you may not be getting the support from your principal or, you know, let alone your school district, right? 00:39:36.010 --> 00:39:58.490 So like take a moment to just sort of take stock of what you're doing and what you've done, um, know that that is making a difference for kids in your classroom, especially for those kids that they might not be saying anything, but a couple of years down the line, you know, they might be coming out or transitioning, and they'll remember, you know, that representation and that inclusion. 00:39:58.650 --> 00:40:29.289 Um and then the other thing, too, that I would say is for teachers to maybe reflect on a little bit in terms of what kind of like in-service training that they're getting from their school and their district and ways in which, you know, they can incorporate more um pedagogical strategies around multicultural education, inclusive educational pedagogies, and let that also be inclusive of LGBTQ-related themes and lessons, right? 00:40:29.450 --> 00:40:31.130 Because I think teachers do need support. 00:40:31.289 --> 00:40:36.889 I think a lot of them, most teachers just have the best of intentions for their kids and they want to do right by them. 00:40:37.050 --> 00:40:41.930 They do care about their social and emotional well-being, um, but they also need help, right? 00:40:42.090 --> 00:40:44.329 Um to in order to get there. 00:40:44.490 --> 00:40:56.090 And so lean in when you can where you feel comfortable, I think, with your administration and think about how you bring some of those in-service PD experiences that can help elevate your pedagogy. 00:41:00.409 --> 00:41:03.210 Thank you for being a part of Queering Education. 00:41:03.289 --> 00:41:05.769 This is a Teaching Well Queer podcast. 00:41:05.930 --> 00:41:10.970 Take what you need from this conversation and bring it back into your classroom and your students. 00:41:11.130 --> 00:41:12.570 I'm Brian Stanton. 00:41:12.730 --> 00:41:15.610 Until next time, keep showing up.