BSME Talks | Teacher Retention During Times of Uncertainty

On this episode of BSME Talks, Debra Forsyth, CEO of BSME, is joined by two outstanding members of our community: Rachel Higgins, Principal and CEO of GEMS Jumeirah Primary School, and Sean Sibley, Principal at Doha English Speaking School.

Amid ongoing uncertainty across the Middle East, many educators have found themselves asking a difficult question: whether to remain in the region or return home. Rachel and Sean share how they have supported staff who have chosen to stay, and how their recruitment and retention strategies have adapted this academic year.

They explore the shift in staff sentiment since the onset of the conflict, and the realities of managing what has become their longest and most complex recruitment cycle to date.

From evolving “buddy” systems to leading with clear, confident communication, they offer practical, grounded insights into sustaining strong, connected school communities during times of uncertainty.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hello, and welcome to our next episode of BSME Talks, the podcast that brings you real conversations about the things that matter in international education, both in the Middle East and beyond. In today's episode, we will be exploring staff retention and recruitment in uncertain times. I'm Deborah Forsyth, CEO of British Schools in the Middle East, and I'm delighted to be joined today by Rachel Higgins, Principal and CEO of Jameera Primary School in Dubai, and Sean Sibley, principal of Doha English Speaking School in Qatar. Welcome, Rachel, welcome Sean, and thank you for joining us. Just to set a little bit of context for today's conversation, we are all aware that teacher recruitment is a global challenge. The 2024 UNESCO Global Report on Teachers estimated that 44 million additional teachers will be needed globally by 2030 if we are to achieve the UN sustainable development goal of universal primary and secondary education. The report also noted that while sub-Saharan Africa faces massive recruitment gaps, high-income countries are also grappling with teacher retention. 53% of primary classes in some areas are covered by temporary or unqualified staff. And 59% of teachers in England are expected to leave the profession within the next three years. The impact of attrition is significant. Approximately 58% of the total demand for new teachers by 2030 is driven by the need to replace those leaving the profession rather than creation of new positions. So we all know that we're starting from a challenging global backdrop for our conversation today. So to kick off, Rachel and Sean, I'd like to take you back to December, January, the start of this uh year and of your school's renewal and recruitment season. And I'd like to get a feel for what was the general retention picture at each of your schools back in December and January? Roughly what percentage of your staff had indicated their intention to leave, and how did this compare with previous years?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Actually, from our perspective, we are a primary sector only. My particular school that I lead is primary sector only. So actually, this year we were quite in line with previous years. And I know that it's not going to hit the primary sector in the same way as it's going to hit the secondary sector in terms of mobility and in terms of the uh need for so many more employees. So we were at our, I would say our standard 8-9%. We'd had all of the one-to-one conversations, and we were in a position where we felt uh pretty much like other years is that we had the natural attrition of those going back to the UK or onto further overseas postings. There would obviously be a couple that would come over the term too, in terms of those going to for promotions with other schools within Dubai, perhaps, or within the UAE. But we were personally in a very similar position than we'd been the previous, say three to four years of having about eight, nine percent going on to their next chapter or onto back to home, if that makes sense. So it hadn't really affected us in any shape or form. So it was a bit of a typical year for us. But I do appreciate that I'm a primary sector.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Thanks, Rachel. That's an eight, eight to nine percent is actually quite a nice number. Um you don't want that figure to be too low. Um scores could become stagnant with no turnover. And Sean, what were things looking like for you back in December, January?

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Well, I think it was a bit different in Qatar because obviously we'd had two attacks uh in in the June and in the September uh on the um the headquarters here and on the American Air Base. So I think there was a level of anxiety. So we had more people saying they were going to be leaving than usual. Normally we are only working on about 5% who leave deaths at any time each year, but this time it was 11% of our whole staff who said they wouldn't be here for this next academic year. Now that that was initially the one in December, that that's actually increased since then. But in December that that was the case. To be honest, I was expecting more, I was expecting a higher percentage. A lot of our teachers have a lot of young children. Uh and like I said, there was people were frightened and feeling a bit uneasy at that time. Obviously, we did lots in as a school to help with that. But yeah, that that was the initial picture.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Okay, so interesting then to see already, Sean, you were seeing some impact of those much smaller scale short-term conflicts that had happened within Qatar last year. And then, of course, the bigger conflict of the Middle East since the 28th of February has created a genuinely turbulent time for schools across the region. You were both in countries that were facing incoming missiles, schools in your countries were closed and moved to online learning for periods of time. Your governments were issuing shelter-in-place alerts periodically. Definitely, we will have seen, I'm sure, some impact of that time. I am interested to hear how your school community responded to the concerns that the conflict raised. Did you see an impact on staff expressing an intention to leave? Did you have anybody that walked out the door immediately and said, that's it, I'm off? Or did you have an increase in staff saying, right, that's it, I'm leaving at the end of the school year? Sean, what impact did this new conflict have for your school in Qatar?

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Obviously, it was incredibly challenging, uh, not just operationally, but emotionally for staff and families as well. I think moving quickly to online learning, managing alerts, maintaining calm, it required a real huge collective effort. In terms of retention, we did see a small number of staff reconsider their plans in light of the bombings. You know, some chose to leave earlier. We had some immediate resignations with immediate effect because actually Qatar and the ministries requested that all people had to return to school, and that included staff, and it was just after our e-break, actually. But so some decided to leave with immediate effect. I mean, it went up to, I think we had 16% in the end altogether who left. So, yeah, it it was a challenge, but what was really encouraging was how many staff chose to stay despite the uncertainty, and and that for me kind of reflected that the threat to the community we have here at deaths.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Like like you, Sean, we could we've got strong retention. So a lot of our staff actually had done the COVID already, so they've done the online learning. So actually, this time round, we switched on very quickly. They sort of got together in their teams very, very quickly as well in terms of managing how they delivered the online learning. So we had a week of the online learning, and then we well, holiday was brought forward. So within that, within that week, I think I had two teachers say that actually that was probably going to be them done, but at the end of the year, as you said, Deborah. I think they were going to be next year leavers anyway, but I think this just brought it forward and and and they've got family back at home who they're responsible for. They're they're the only two still out here. And I think it really made them unnerved in the fact that they wanted to then be back at home with family. This was quite different, and we'd learnt a lot from COVID. So we have got people in apartments delivering online learning, but they were on their own, but they could still move. So in COVID, obviously we couldn't go anywhere, so they were on their they were isolated. Whereas this time they were teaching on their own, but they were able to see other people in the evening. So we we very much made a decision to put one member of SLT in with each of the teams. So that person was like leading a little mini school, if you like. So there's a head of year, obviously, but we had an SLT member who was a link there who was checking in with them all daily, and so that became, you know, almost like the the mother hen sort of figure, if you like, for that for that particular team. And I think it made them feel very, very connected. So we didn't have leavers immediately. I didn't have anybody, but ours is very different from Sean's because we were then extended, ours extended on to continued online learning. And it was very quickly the case that from here that you could deliver that online learning from wherever you want. So I think it was a very different scenario than they had, obviously, where you are, Sean. And I think had it been different, we might have had the same outcome as Sean had. But we had two literally leave straight away in terms of expressing that they were going to leave at the end of the year, but not actually at that point of time.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

I think, you know, we the the week before our two-week Eid break, we went online. So we we allowed a degree of flexibility there as well. So some of our staff decide to return to the UK a week before the break, because you know, as Rachel said, they could offer online learning anywhere in the world as long as they kind of follow the Qatar hours. So I think I think that's an important point to make in the fact that as a school you do have to offer that kind of degree of flexibility and support and understanding. Because that means actually, long term, you do retain staff because they'll remember that, they'll remember those key key times when you've supported them.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

That's a great Sean, and that takes me very nicely on to my my next question, really. And this is looking at how you as a school manage the uncertainty. In times like this, staff are very closely watching you as individuals to see how you're handling things and what your leadership approach is can really determine the whole school mood. So we we've just heard there, Sean, about that flexibility of doing online learning from anywhere where you happen to be was one strategy that was positive and helped teachers feel a little bit more comfortable. Were there any other strategies that you found work particularly well in terms of keeping your community together and supporting staff retention? Is there anything with hindsight that you thought you might do differently?

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Uh yeah, for us it was about being honest as well and transparent with staff and setting our expectations very clearly as well, you know, giving deadlines, giving dates. Yes, there was some flexibility, but you know, you you have to have expectations for your staff and ultimately putting children first. You know, children needed a teacher in front of them. And I think the leadership style, you know, the SLT had to remain calm and consistent, even when we didn't have all the answers. Staff needed to feel there was a plan and that their leaders were present and visible, you know, like Rachel said, having SLT members being the mother hen, I think it's a real good analogy of that, and keeping things as normal as possible for the children. I mean, if I'm honest, one thing I'd reflect on is the pace. You know, in those moments, everything moves so quickly. And perhaps with hindsight, there are times when potentially slowing communication slightly, just to ensure clarity, might have been a bit more beneficial. You know, we were moving at such a fast pace that sometimes too quickly, you know, maybe I just needed to take a breath as a leader and just consider things a bit more wildly as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Thanks, Sean. Rachel? Very much resonates with me in terms of the word calm, and that's really quite challenging to be, honestly, to be a leader in in these times in terms of being that person who has to have a completely calm expression on at all times. The one thing we did, what we we moved from school to online was I did a daily briefing, and that seemed to go down very well in terms of a 245 connection meeting every day. So everybody would finish their online learning. And for every single day that we were online throughout the entire of this experience, we had a 245 catch-up meeting where, and quite frankly, there was enough, there was usually enough messages to keep going each day. But but also just to thank them, to reassure them, to to feed back to them what you know. I receive emails. I've got the pleasure of receiving emails from parents sometimes that they don't necessarily see. So a chance to be able to reiterate those lovely positive messages that I was receiving, and also to to give them that sense of calm. You've only, you know, it's almost like you've got 24 hours until I see you again. I'll see you tomorrow, I'll see you tomorrow, I'll see you tomorrow. So that aspect seemed to work very well. And the the trust factor as well, that we as leaders were saying, a completely an athlete believe in you. I know you can do this. You know, you need to do what you need to be safe and feel secure and able to deliver the very best version of yourself. So if it means delivering it here, do that. If it means, you know, we had the flexibility to do so, if it means delivering it from Bali, Singapore or the UK, you do that. So I know that you need to be in the same way as I need to be present and have a sense of calm when I'm delivering online. So therefore, as a teacher, you need to make that decision for you, your family, your circumstances. You know, if you need to go back to the UK so that your grandparents can look after the children while you're delivering online, you do that. So that seemed to go a long way in terms of that high level of belief, trust, and as Sean said, a really good sense of calmness, even when it doesn't feel like that.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Another thing I did, Deborah, which was a minor thing maybe, but I think it was quite nice, was uh I read a story every night to the children uh via video. So it was a rather dull story. And like like Rachel, you know, we had those regular check-ins with staff as well, and I think that was really important. So with staff it's important, but also with children. I mean, our children just age three to thirteen, so they needed to see staff, teachers, me, whatever, you know, because they that's what they see on a normal day-to-day basis. So it's just being visible, and I I also I shared a video with with parents as well, where I said, Look, any questions you've got, email them through, and next time I do a video, I'll you know, I'll cover those questions. So just making sure that everything was okay and keeping that communication going all the time.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Yeah, so hearing strong messages there of communication and connection, very regular connections, so no one's feeling isolated, being really important there. And and then what about you as leaders can often be forgotten, but you need support too. Um, Rachel, you mentioned how challenging it was to exude that that aura of calm when you maybe weren't necessarily feeling that yourself. What support was available to you as leaders during these challenging times?

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Well, for me, obviously the the obvious, and I'm not I'm not being trite, it is the BSME. You know, it is it's it's having those connections. I mean, WhatsApp is obviously the most immediate way of doing that, but that that shared collaboration, that shared camaraderie, actually having a bit of a giggle sometimes, you know, even when things are going badly, you've got to be able to find some sort of joy in everything, haven't you? So connections that you make with people like minded principals, whether those be in an official group such as the BSME or those smaller groups, I've got a book behind me now which Fiona Cotton recommended to me. So it's things like that where, again, like you, Sean, she recommended she was doing uh reading online. So it's those recommendations that you get in these WhatsApp groups and you go, well, actually, I think I'll give that a go. What's you know, that's obviously served another community brilliantly. I'm going to do the same thing myself. So that collaboration has just been phenomenal. And as I say, that camaraderie and not doing this on your own. You are surrounded by a group of people who are doing the same thing, and they are literally just there, you know, to reach out to whenever you need to.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah, for me, I mean, my wife's a head teacher, actually. So I think we supported each other, and we haven't got our children who are grown up now, so it was just us two. But I think, yeah, like Rachel, really important to be able to speak to the other best in my heads in our WhatsApp group. And the good thing is we trust each other and we could be very frank with each other in that WhatsApp group as well. That made a huge difference. Sharing approaches. I think also having a real strong senior leadership team was critical at this time. I think you really learn a lot, don't you, about yourselves and about about your leaders, because I think you know, leadership can feel quite isolating in those moments, but when you've got a team that you trust, it becomes potentially more manageable as well. So, you know, just trusting each other. And you know what, in some kind of strange way, it's really strengthened us as a team, you know, it's brought us all together. I think when you when you're when you're facing kind of a situation like that, it brings everybody closer together and actually long-term make makes you a stronger team.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah, that's a really interesting uh silver lining there, Sean. So thank you very much for picking up on that. I want us now to think a little bit about well-being. There is still a real risk, I think, that the uncertainty, and we do still have some uncertainty, that this can quietly erode staff well-being, even amongst people not planning to leave, that sense of background anxiety can affect morale, focus, and ultimately performance. What have you been doing in your schools to actively monitor and respond to that well-being need of your staff?

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Actually, simply being human, you know, so showing empathy, listening, acknowledging that it's okay not to feel completely settled. I think there's probably an underlying sense of anxiety amongst the staff. So we've we've looked to kind of workload as well, you know, you know, being very care and very mindful of not giving additional tasks to staff at the moment, because generally, by the end of the day, they want to go home. You know, they want to be with their children, they want to be with the family. So just acknowledging that. I would say increasing informal check-ins, ensuring that leaders are visible and approachable, you know, giving staff permission to talk, but also not forcing it as well, because there are there are some staff who on the surface you know seem absolutely fine, but not everybody expresses their concerns openly, but it doesn't mean it's not there as well. But we we've done a variety of other things as well. I mean, we we've we had um an ice cream van that came in for staff and actually could give we gave them each a voucher. We've also got a Schwarmer van coming in tomorrow. You know, we've done kind of treats every day, really. You know, I think those are important just to make sure uh staff realize that you you know you are there for them and you're really praising them, you know, for carrying on doing what they do, and they're doing an amazing job.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

I totally agree. And daily check-ins, as Sean was saying there. So we've had our well-being teams every every day when we were online. They had a 40-minute session in the morning in between, you know, the online learning sessions where people could just pop into a room, if you like, a virtual room, and just chat through through things, you know, any concerns they had whether guarding professional or personal. And that's continued since we've come back to school. So those well-being teams are there, you know, available break times for staff members to pop in and speak to them as well. Remove the briefing, what we had at the end of every day, that's become a high five every morning. So for five minutes every morning, there's a moment where we just share a normality of what's gonna happen for the rest of the day. Some days there's there's been an announcement which we've then relayed the messaging, obviously to staff, but it it just means that we've again had that daily check-in where, you know, today's another normal day, here we go, we're gonna be amazing, you're going to be amazing, you're gonna be fine, off you go and have a fabulous day, and just set the scene for a really positive day. But I think what we've we've also established is that people need to look in and look after each other. So the same way as that, you know, within those teams is please do indicate to anybody, particularly that SLT link that you've now got, let them know if you think anybody's starting to to to waver at all, or or if there's any indication that that staff member is exhibiting, particularly in the first week when we came back, any signs of anxiety. So we shared posters about what children might you know show themselves in terms of being anxious and made clear that that might not show itself in the first three or four days of excitement of being back, but you might notice other signs 10 days later of fatigue, etc. Once that adrenaline starts to come out of staff members and out of children, that's when you can start to see signs of different signs of anxiety in terms of fatigue, exhaustion, um, and general sort of malaise, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

I'd like now to move from retention of your existing staff and have a little bit of a look um towards recruitment for next academic year. For both of you, I'm assuming that your recruitment cycle had started before the conflict and you possibly had already started interviewing, maybe even appointing people. What did the start of that recruitment cycle look like for you at the beginning of the year in terms of volume of applications that you were seeing, the quality of the field, and just general interest from candidates in the UK and internationally?

SPEAKER_02 19:38

I mean, for us, I mean, I think the recruitment market was already competitive. Uh, with with us, there's a number of new schools that are opening in Qatar, so that brings an added level of competition. But as I mentioned, we we'd had two bombings previous to these ones, you know, but back in June and September. So I think we we were seeing perhaps fewer applications historically, but there was still a real strong calibre uh uh overall. What we've had to be much sharper on with our recruitment is a real clarity of messaging and perhaps a speed of communication and perhaps selling the whole experience of the school, not just the role as well. And actually really pushing the fact that we are a community school. So actually, we we look after our staff, you know, we're kind to our staff, and actually throughout all of this, it's brought people closer together. So we we try to turn it on its head really and try to sell that part of the school a bit more.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

And what were things like for you, Rachel, in terms of responses to your advertisements?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

We tend to do our recruitments over November time in terms of going over to the UK, so that had carried on as normal. So actually, yes, before all this started in February, we were in that, you know, that sort of position of feeling like we might have one or two following promotions to other schools in Dubai, but that's probably where we were up to. That's that's very normal for us to get to you know the end of term two with one or two potentials, but the majority fixed and ready to go and setting up buddies, etc. etc. So that's where we were then. And obviously, as you can imagine, things have changed and we, you know, we're in the position that we've we've not been before where we're still recruiting for staff now. And that's you know, that's as you know, the time that I've been here, that's not been something we've had to do. So that puts us into an interesting new chapter of recruiting in May, which we haven't done.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah. So that million dollar question, then I guess, is what impact has the regional conflict had on your recruitment pipeline? Have have you had candidates who you had already appointed, who had accepted job for next year, who've withdrawn or that are asking difficult questions? And and if so, what what steps are you taking or what have you found helpful to reassure these incoming appointees and to help them address their legitimate concerns?

SPEAKER_00 21:46

We've lost three in the last week, as it obviously, as it was coming to I'll tell you what's happened is we we have an online meeting, which we've actually just had today. So I can feedback on that as well. So as we were coming towards this and setting up buddies, so we we what we did do was put buddies into place. Maybe a month earlier than we normally do to try and gauge exactly this. Do you know do those incoming members of staff need that extra level of reassurance earlier on? No fake, as you say, no over-reassurance and nothing, not you know, not over-promising and under-delivering, but just some sort of general reassurance. And last week we had two people withdrawal applications as we came up to the sort of the here's the team, here's the team's invite for next Monday. And then one we haven't heard from at all. So we've actually rescinded that appointment over the weekend. So the three three has been in the last week.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Okay. So you're buddying up there, Rachel, your incoming staff with your existing staff, yeah. Yes. And getting them, getting them having those conversations already.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Which we always do, but we've we've brought that forward. So we would normally start off with an online Teams meeting, which we've just done today, and then that set the buddies up. But we've we've done it the other way around this year because I felt that obviously those one-to-one WhatsApps, emails, communications might be essential earlier. I felt like the longer we left these incoming teachers on their own, they might have those concerns, or as you say, reading or watching press in in different countries, they might get a distorted view of what it was like to actually come out here. But luckily today they they did all the ones we were expecting turned up, which was fantastic. So that was it, that's a good, a good first um start. Um and we did something that we haven't done before, and I'm kicking myself that we've never done it before, is rather than just going through the everybody in one Zoom meeting together and teams meeting together and going through kind of a a mini induction process, we started off with that for 10 minutes and then we actually put them into breakout rooms today on a Teams call so that they could then have that buddying time, put a name to a face and actually you know spend 15-20 minutes with their buddy um asking the questions that they probably didn't feel safe or willing to do so in front of everybody. And I hopefully that starts a communication now that they'll they'll continue on. Um, now that they've actually got a bit more of a a bond with somebody who's here who can actually say it's actually okay, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

That's very positive. And what about in Qatar, Sean?

SPEAKER_02 24:05

Yeah, we we had a like Rachel, we had a small number of withdrawals, you know. We we interviewed, offered, we were chasing references, and eventually they said, nope, sorry, we're withdrawing. It was frustrating for us, but understandable. We we've had candidates asked perhaps directly about safety and stability and contingency planning, and rightly so. But you know, we we've been very clear with our with our new newbies, you know, we're still recruiting like Rachel at the moment, and it's the latest I've ever recruited. I think we've got two more to go at the moment, which is very unusual. But generally, we we're not too bad with recruitment. People generally want to work here, which is lovely. Uh, but we've been very honest, you know, it's like we don't hide, like you said, we don't over-reassure people, you know. So we you know we explain what's happened, but we also explain how we've responded and what systems are in place. I I don't think candidates expect perfection, they just expect professionalism and transparency. So, you know, I think we've tried to work on that more than anything else. We have buddies, but I'm gonna pinch that idea, Rachel, of of uh setting up these buddies earlier. I like that because I think you know they probably need it a bit earlier than normal, don't they, at the moment. So I think that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Yeah, I think that allowing the incoming teachers to feel that they're already part of your community has got to be a good step forward.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Also encouraging them to today, we really strongly encourage them all to join our Instagram and our Facebook accounts so that they can actually see that daily diet. Now, if they start to follow us as a school, they'll start to feel number one part of the community, but also they'll start to see a normal representation of what's happening here every day. Um, I think that's probably going to be something to be encouraged as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Uh, that that sense of normality that they're possibly not seeing evidence of on, as you say, on uh sort of world media talking about the area. So, my final question then for you both on this topic. I I'd like to think about um what you would like to share with maybe both your current and your incoming staff that genuinely gives you confidence about the year ahead. When you're looking forward to September 26th and thinking of your school community, what is it that makes you really sure that you're in the right place, doing the right thing, and that these people should really be part of your community and continuing with you?

SPEAKER_02 26:20

For me, I think we're probably better prepared than we've ever been, and more connected as a team than we've ever been. Perhaps also clearing how we operate in certain situations. You know, we're kind of I think we're more resilient. We've had COVID, we've now had two bomb alerts last year, some this year as well. So, as a team, we're really strong. You know, that's really brought us closer together. And the way the way our staff have responded during the challenge, you know, the professionalism and the care for the willingness to go above and beyond, that that gives me real confidence and that we're in the right place. I think logistically as well, what we're doing is planning to create a pool of teachers just in case, you know what I mean? And just it's almost kind of a safety precaution, really, that's that we people can step in if need be. So, for example, we've done little things like rewarding our current supply staff with a little bonus, you know, and just saying thank you very much for stepping in at the last minute, you know, to help our school, making sure we keep them on side, because we who knows we may need them in the new academic year as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

I think for for us it's the um it's the reassurances that actually it has returned to what I would describe as you know our new normal very quickly. So there's two aspects to it, but as Sean said, is that we know what to do. You know, we have what what's what's worked very, very well. You know, should we ever hopefully touch would not, but should we ever need to do the same thing again? You know, we've got a tried and tested plan, we know exactly what to do. The speed in which our families have come back, I think, is a really good indication of the trust. I mean, parents are handing over their most precious thing in the whole wide world, and they happily did so based on the plans that we sent out, based on you know our return to school plans, and very rapidly, you know, we're down to a minuscule amount of uh children now who are still online. Most of those are outside the country, with a couple couple here, you know, still thinking about coming back. But our retention rates of uh children, our re-enrolment rates, I think give a really good indication that parents are here, parents are staying, and you know, they they they really are a good litmus test of uh that it's safe and you know, you put your trust into it.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

No, that that's great to hear all of those things actually. I think Sean, there you're picking up on the camaraderie and the strengthening of teams and communities, I think is a real positive to take away there. That idea that that life has got back to normal and people are back in the country and going about their everyday business is shown there by the fact that pretty much all of your students are back. So that's also another another positive for people to take away. So thank you both very much for your input on the conversation. I think it will be one that will resonate deeply with both school leaders and teachers across the BSME community and beyond, particularly with people in the UK that are looking to coming out in August. So I think as we collectively face unusual challenges, it does help to know that we're not alone and we're not navigating these alone. And I think your input has been really positive for that. Before you go and we close the podcast, I'm gonna ask you both our closing question. This is one we ask every guest on BSME Talks. We know that teachers can be hugely influential, they can have far-reaching ripple effects that we can't often even imagine. So I would like to ask each of you now to tell me a teacher that you have had in your schooling life that has had a really strong influence on you, and why is that? Sean, would you like to go first?

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Yeah, there's probably a few I could mention, but the one that stands out, and it was a man called Mr. Rosotto, who was my uh who was my math teacher when I was at primary school, because what what he did was he matched kind of really high expectations, but matched that with real genuine care. And he was very good at kind of creating relationship, you know, made it clear that effort mattered and that standards mattered, but also they believed in me. You know, you know, it it that that meant such a lot. And I think it's probably something I've tried to carry on into my own leadership as well, that balance of kind of high expectations and also strong relationships.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Thanks, Sean.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

And Rachel, what about you? Well, I mean, it's an interesting one. I always dread it when someone's going to ask me this because I don't I don't have that light bulb moment of this inspirational teacher, but I have a collection of memories of things, and I suppose I always try and you know change things up. But I have a collection of memories of things that I didn't particularly love about a lot of teachers in terms of the way, you know, some of them were just uh too, there was too much of a predetermination of what you were going to be like. There was a lot of ceilings back in, I mean I'm going back a while here, but you know, there was a lot of expectations for everything to everyone to be the same and to do the same and to do it in the same order. So I suppose I always look for the teachers when asked this question that actually, like you say, Sean, really spent the time building a relationship. And that's everything now that we we our foundation of our school is built on is building relationships. I suppose it would be Miss Bridges who gave up her lunch hours, you know, so that we could play the piano in her classroom because she knew we particularly loved doing that. It's those people who go the extra mile to find out who you are as a person and then to allow that platform for you to have a successful moment or collection of moments in time. That relationship always comes before you even believing that you'll be able to do anything um beyond what you thought was capable, what you were capable of doing. So she would be one, but I think it's an interesting one where I I think throughout my whole professional career it's been about looking for not the negatives, but looking for things that are oh, I wish, you know, maybe if we could just change that or reframe that or do that a slightly different way, then more children have an opportunity to be successful if we were able to identify the relationship that you know that underpins everything.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Thank you both very much for sharing your reflections. They're really interesting ones to hear. Rachel Sean, thank you very much for joining us today. I will say from a personal point of view, it's a privilege to work alongside leaders of your caliber in the BSME community. You both do a lot for the organisation. So thank you for that. And thank you all very much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode of BSME Talks. If today's conversation has prompted any thoughts or questions you'd like to share, please do get in touch with us at BSME. And until next time, happy teaching.