BSME Talks | Founding a New School with Simon O'Connor

In this episode of BSME Talks, Nalini Cook sits down with Simon O'Connor, Executive Head Master of Harrow International Schools UAE and Founding Head Master of Harrow Dubai, to explore the realities of bringing a globally recognised school brand to the UAE.

Drawing on his experience leading some of the region's most respected schools, Simon reflects on what it means to establish a new school when there is no local legacy to rely on. From earning the trust of families and attracting outstanding staff to creating a sense of community before the doors even open, he shares the challenges, opportunities and lessons that come with shaping a school's identity from day one.

The conversation also explores why Simon believes collaboration, not competition, will define the future of education in the UAE, how Harrow's values are being embedded within a Middle Eastern context, and the role he hopes the school will play in the wider educational landscape. Along the way, he reflects on the experiences from Jumeirah College and Deira International School that continue to influence his approach to leadership and school development.

A fascinating insight into school founding, educational leadership and the evolving future of international education in the Gulf.

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to this episode of BSME Talks. I'm Nalini Cook. I am COO at BSME and I'm joined today by Simon O'Connor, who is Executive Headmaster of Harrow International Schools in the UAE and Headmaster of Harrow Jabai. We're going to be talking about his experience of opening a new school in the Middle East at a time when the education landscape is really quite rapidly expanding. We're seeing both homegrown brands and international brands establishing their place in the market. It's a really exciting destination for both educators and for families. But along with that, of course, comes intense competition. The KHDA in Dubai alone has said that they expect around 100 new schools to be opening by 2033. So carving out your place and sharing your unique educational experience has never been more challenging. So I'm going to start, Simon, by asking you about how you shape the way you approach launching a new school, given that there are so many in the market and it's such a competitive environment. Well, thank you, and thank you for the opportunity to uh to talk to you, Nalini. It's always a pleasure. Uh, really good question. As you say, Dubai is already competitive and it's becoming more competitive. I've been leading schools here for quite a long time now, and I think firstly, having an understanding of that competition is really important. I don't think it's the case that schools should just presume that they will be successful. We have to earn our place and we have to earn the trust of parents and of the community. In terms of Harrow, I think there's a combination of factors. The first thing is we are bringing over a very well-known and reputed offer. Harrow in London is over 450 years old and is rightly reputed for the standard of education that it provides. Now, it's not a given simply because we've got a name that that will be indicated. One of the many things that attracted me to this role is actually the fact that Harrow will be very much involved in the school, not just in the setup, but moving forward. Harrow established a number of international schools across the world and have a really strong track record in the way in which they oversee those schools. So, for example, representatives from Harrow will be on our governing body. They will visit on a regular basis. They actually have a set of Harrow standards that will be held to. We are not simply a name and a badge. It really is we are working very, very hard, working very close with Harrow to bring the ethos and the culture of Harrow in London to the UAE. So I think we are offering something as a consequence, which is not here at the moment. That will be what we're offering, and I think it's going to be strong. I think it's going to be very strong. The second element is obviously the fact that this is a Tallem school as well, and Tallem have got a very strong, rightly a very strong reputation in the region. So when you combine those two factors, I think it is something that brings the consistency and the expertise locally of Tallim, combined with a really new element to the Dubai scene and to the UAE scene because we're opening at AvenW as well. So that uniqueness, I think, will be an important addition to the education market in the region. And what makes somebody like Harrow? You mentioned there that they have schools in other parts of the world. We know that they're a really strong brand internationally. What makes them look at somewhere like the Middle East, like the UAE, and think, yeah, that's our next destination? What what appealed about here, do you think? Well, I think you've already seen it. I mean, this is this is one of the most exciting, forward-moving, dynamic regions in the world. I mean, not just educationally, but in all respects, it is a very rapidly expanding education market. And actually, this is the part of the world that Harrow have looked at for a while and been interested in being part of. They have taken their time, however, to make sure that they've got, for example, the right location, the right partners, because they want this obviously to be a success. I think what that shows, however, is that this isn't a sort of knee-jerk reaction that we need to open in the UAE. They've taken their time to consider the factors to make sure that they've got everything in a row so that when we do open, it's the most likely to be successful. The location of the school in Dubai and indeed in Abu Dhabi are absolutely premium. The link up with Talim will make it a success. So there's no question there's a desire to be part of this community, the educational community in this region, but they've taken their time to make sure that it will be as successful as it can be. Now, we're talking about essentially trying to establish the ethos, the DNA of a centuries-old British school in the UAE, and with all the cultural sensitivities that come with that, you've been working in schools here for years, can I say decades? We've known each other for a very long time. I'm coming up to my 14th year, so uh yeah. How does a school who I suppose has such a strongly established ethos and its homegrown entity transpose that into the UAE without upsetting local cultural sensitivities? Well, I mean, I I'm gonna actually make the make it sound not worse, but a bit more complicated because not only are we bringing a British school to the UAE, we're bringing a boys' boarding school for boys age 13 to 18 and converting it into an all-through co-educational day school. So it's even more complex than that. For me, and I know this is something you and I have talked about in the past, it's about the culture, the organizational culture. And I think you can bring that across. So the ethos of the school, the experience of the pupils, and you've got to remember, all the boys that go to Harrow in London will have been to a pre-prep and a prep. So we're simply expanding our offering to capture that experience that they will have had. But I think you look at the culture, you look at the experience now. What is what is Harrow renowned for? And I think, firstly, academic excellence, there's no question about that. But I think Harrow and the wider independent school model in the UK is about the wider experience. I mean, I was a boarder in an independent school in the UK, and yes, I remember the lessons, yes, I remember the obviously still carry the qualifications that I've got in terms of the lessons and subjects and things like that. But actually, that that wasn't my experience in its totality by any means. For me, it was about music, it was about the opportunity to be in a choir, to be in an orchestra, go on choir tours, play in orchestral concerts. It's the wider life for the school. I mean, I was in the fencing team. I really wasn't very good, but nonetheless, these are examples of things that I think schools have an opportunity to expose children to, to give them the opportunity to take part in. Now, in Dubai, what we're talking about, and to come back to that boarding point, is we're we're saying the offering that we're going to be providing is essentially boarding without the sleeping. So we've got the much longer day. We know the parent reality in Dubai. You pick your child up at the end of school, you might take them off to the sevens for rugby training or netball or something like that. You may take them down to CMA for their music lessons. Parents here are, I think, really appreciate the various elements that go beyond the classroom and often are having to negotiate that themselves. We know that sometimes that can involve a fair amount of driving around, fair amount of traffic. They then have to get home, they have to sit with their children while they do their prep, they've got to feed them, etc. We will be encapsulating all of that. So we will have ECAs that run before school. We will have obviously the lessons. We're putting a great deal of emphasis on dining so that all the children will dine together. At the end of school, we will give them tea. End of school lessons, that is, we will give them tea, but we're also going to offer a huge menu of CCA opportunities. Yes, on the sports field, on the stage, subject enhancement, the whole range. From years five and six upwards, as well, pupils will sit and have a session where they do their prayer. So the the aim is that rather than darting around the divide trying to capture all these different elements, we actually provide as much of it as we can at school. Now, obviously, parents can opt in and out of that if they want. But actually, the hope is that for the majority of parents, they simply pick their children up at the end of the day, they take them home and actually can spend some time being parents and enjoying that rather than being the motivator and the chauffeur and the chef and everything else that goes in. Now, in terms of the tensions that you have, I mean, I don't think there are any tensions in establishing a school in in the UAE. I've been very clear all the way through this. And indeed, this is something I've said about the other schools that I've led here. We're not going to be a British school in the UAE. We're going to be a UAE school with a very strong connection to a British school. And yes, we'll be teaching the British curriculum, but we're a UAE school. There's no question about that. So we are educating the residents of the UAE and therefore all the connections. And this isn't this isn't an inconvenience. This is something we're incredibly proud of. And we are even now in the design of the school, looking at how we can really accentuate and make it clear that connection and that commitment to the UAE. So it's something we celebrate rather than thinking of something we have to sort of fit in. I mean, there are, as you know, there are curriculum requirements in terms of Arabic A, Arabic A, B, Islamic moral and social studies and things like that. And again, it's for me, it's not about sort of seeing how we can put this in. I think that has to be the basis of our curriculum. The KHDA and the Dubai government have been very clear, I think, rightly, about what they want pupils to achieve when they're in school. And I think that has to be the sort of the center of around which we turn. So the strap line we've been talking about is tradition meets tomorrow. The thing I really like about that is obviously we're able to leverage the foundations of Harrow School, all of their experience, the way in which they deliver education, a lot of the behaviours that they they have and the way in which we will approach education. But when you combine that with the tomorrow, which is Dubai, the UAE, the forward-looking approach to uh not just education, but all facets of society, I think it's a really exciting combination. I like that. And I think people can often get quite bogged down in the amount of hours that we have to put in in the region to things like Arabic, Islamic studies, moral and social studies, whatever it's called in whichever country that you're in. But actually, that having that as a core component, and obviously again, you've you've been here for 14 years, you've balanced that so well over that time, it's not something to be frightened of, it's actually something to be embraced. I think mindset's really important with this. I mean, if you take Arabic as an example, if you take a mindset which is this is inconvenient, we don't want to do it, we this is a compliance issue, then the children are not going to learn Arabic. Let's take a step back. The children are living in the Middle East, this is their home. I have two daughters that grew up in this region. I think it's unconscionable to think they should leave their education at the end of it, not well versed in Arabic. Of course they should be. And therefore, this is a real opportunity, it's something to celebrate. You know, we we we all know about the importance of uh of languages, and we also know the importance of the Middle East. You know, this is this is one of the most quickly growing um politically influential parts of the world. We want our children to be fluent in that, not from an Anglo-centric perspective, but actually not just understanding the language, but understanding the history, understanding the culture, absorbing themselves in the place where they call home. So I think that's that's a wonderful opportunity and something that we should absolutely embrace. More pertinently, uh, I talk to my teams a lot about expectations. If we expect it to be successful, if we expect our children to leave school able to communicate in Arabic, understanding the part of the world in which they live, that's the context in which they're going to be successful. Rather than saying, we've been told to do this, we'll tick a box. That's that's never going to work. I have been talking already to our Arabic and Islamic teams about the fact that I want the celebration of the part of the world in which we live to be absolutely central to the school. One of the things I talk to my teams about is again, I think learning environments are absolutely crucial, but I think it's a form of communication. We haven't got a school that's built yet, so we're not quite at this point yet. But the challenge I always give my staff is this: if someone wants to visit the school in the middle of the night, walk the school when no one else is there, and simply sees the environment that we've created, they have to know what we stand for. So when you're walking around a school, is it clear that literacy is absolutely central? Is it clear that we are a school of the Middle East? We're a school of the UAE, a school that celebrates the history of the UAE. Is it clear that we have a value set? That should be evident before anyone has said anything. So we're already designing how we're going to put these elements into the school. And it's it's a really great opportunity. Well, that leads me on to another question that I had then about the actual physical setup, you know, your buildings, your facilities, very common in this part of the world to compete on world-class facilities. Talking about how that feeds into your culture, your ethos at school. How do you decide which elements of a building, which elements of capital investment are absolutely essential for your brand, for your culture, and which are perhaps just noise in a crowded market? Yeah, and it's a really good question. I think I think you have to go back to what's true and what your basis is, and that's teaching and learning. And you know, I I would agree, there is something of a space race in the sense, you know, we've got three tools, we've got four tools, we've got five. You know, it can get said, I think you do need to ignore the noise, and I don't think you need to compete. I think you have to very have a very clear identity of what you're trying to establish, and therefore what you're going to be, and therefore what you need to enable that. So let me give an example. In terms of technology, of course, we have to be the children that leave Harrow have to be digital natives, they have to have a fluent understanding of AI, they have to be able to understand where technology should be used. But I actually think it's more important that they understand where it should not be used and the value of not using technology, what that we are so much more as as humanity that goes beyond technology. We are therefore, of course, we're going to have a complete infrastructure in terms of IT. We will train the pupils to use technology in a fluent way, but we also recognize the need for other elements of an education. One of the things that I think my school gave me was a confidence in oratory, a confidence to speak to people in different contexts. That could be I'm standing on a side of watching a rugby match, talking to the person I'm standing next to. It could be talking to uh, I know the British ambassador in abademically, a confidence in different contexts. You don't get that on a screen. So knowing that that's something that's important to us, we have done things like we're going to have a dining hall in a very similar way to Harrow. The pupils will come in, they will eat together and talk together. Now, one of the things that Talim have done, probably I can't take the credit for this, this wasn't my idea, but actually looked at what Harrow has done and made the dining tables that little bit narrower. So it actually engages conversation. If we understand our role of technology, and different schools will do different things. There's no criticism here, because you have to understand what you are trying to achieve and focus on that. We're not going down the route of yes, we will have robotics labs because I think that's part of the education. But we've seen schools with robotic dogs, and you know, that's not where we're going. If you walk the corridor of the school, you will see far more than simply AI and things such as that. We are actually, because of our links with Harrow and because of the tradition that the school is based on, going to be established in quite a traditional school. What do we need to actually enable that? The facilities at Harrow will be absolutely world-class, there's no question about that. We understand the role of physical activity in a pupil's life. We want the children at the school to leave school, understanding that physical activity is not just fun, but it's also very important. They say now that staying seated all day is about as serious a health risk as smoking is. So I want the children to be engaged in these things. So we build the facilities around that ambition. We've got three swimming pools, we've got two 25 meters competition-ready swimming pools, we've got a pre-prepped swimming pool as well. We've got an outdoor field, a grass pitch that will host rugby, football, and things like that. We've got tennis courts. But actually, again, when we're looking at the sporting facilities, it's about variety, it's about opportunity, it's about understanding that not one sport is right for everyone, but I want every child to leave with the love of at least one physical activity that they will carry for the rest of life. So I think you focus on what you want to achieve, what you stand for, and then you build accordingly. I think there is a danger of saying, well, this school's got three, so we need to have four, because I think that's you're essentially living the agenda of another establishment to that point. Focus on what you're trying to do and create the resources for it. Another thing I should mention, because it's very important, is I mentioned learning environments. Quite often, when you, as a teacher, you go into a school or you go into a classroom, you go into a building, and then you try and create it to be educational. We are so lucky to be working with Kids Inc. as part of the uh the fit out for this because they have a real insight into what's called neuroarchitecture. So the school has been designed around the children's learning to the point of things such as where the sight lines are, the ways in which we ensure that the classrooms don't have a buildup of CO2, which we know can cause drowsiness in children. So looking at the air quality throughout the building, the way in which the children transfer from one place to another has all been considered in the in the design. So we are kind of already ahead of the game before the teachers even get into the school. So those are the considerations that I think are more important, rather than simply competing on a on a space race facilities. Yeah, it's really nice though to hear about that intentionality in the architecture and the design and and bringing that culture and intention into everything. I'm going to shift gear a second and ask you about educators. We know that globally it's getting harder and harder to find qualified educators. Lots of people have been talking about that for many years. It's getting increasingly intense, you know, sort of a competitive environment in this part of the world. Various reports of conflict, etc., in the uh UK press hasn't helped us with finding British teachers most recently. You're in a really unique position, a relatively unique position, in that you're founding a school. You don't have a history, you don't have existing teachers to talk positively to new teachers about what the school is like. How do you address those existing challenges when you've got that additional challenge on top of being a founding school? How on earth do you go about finding the right teachers and uh getting the right people over here? I think, yeah, I mean, unquestionably, that there's been a change in the time. So I was gonna say in the time I've been in Dubai, but it's actually more recent than that. I would say the last three, maybe four years, we've seen a significant change in the way in which we're attracting teachers. It's much more of a seller's market now, and we have to work hard. Having said that, I still think that this is a destination of choice for many teachers. There's a really interesting study out of by the TES that was released in the COVID's conference. The place where the most teachers come from to work in Dubai is Dubai, buyer Maya. So understanding your market is the first thing. Where are people coming from that want to work here? Now, we are establishing a school that's based on the British Independent School model. We want teachers to come from the UK without understanding, but equally, we want people that understand the complexities, the challenges, the nuances of working in this part of the world. I think, firstly, is to realize that it is a seller's market and to understand what the teachers are doing in their research. Teachers are doing their research in a very thorough way. They know what they want to work in, they want to know the kind of school they want to work in. And I think it's recognizing that Harrow School, no school is going to be right for everybody, either as a pupil or as a or as a as a teacher. So we have been very clear as to what we are. We've been very clear from the outset that we are going to be expecting more in terms of hours from teachers. We will be remunerating them accordingly. But we have said very clearly in all the discussions that we've had, this is what it's going to be, because I don't want it to be any surprises. We are very clear on the three things that we really wanted from our teachers in terms of academic excellence and understanding of the dependent school system, but also an ability to contribute well beyond the classroom. And I think it's just about being very transparent. And I don't think that's something that it's simply doubt about recruitment. I think that's about leadership moving forward. Again, you and I have talked about the distinctions between the generations. One of the things that millennials and Gen Z really look for is that transparency, is that openness. Acknowledge that these are the people that we are largely going to be recruiting and be as open as you can and say, you know, this is what we stand for. I said that teachers do their homework, they understand about the leaders, they they will come into interviews having a very thorough knowledge of the schools that I've worked in, the schools I've led. I'm very proud of both Deer International School and Jameer College and what we achieved there and the cultures that we have created in those schools, so we're able to talk about it. We've had over 7,000 applications for the positions that we've advertised. Now, many of those are not achieving the expectations that we have. And the other thing is, and you know, everyone does this, but you spend the time, you have many, many conversations with people to make sure they're culturally the right fit. We are pointing on values as well, making sure that people really understand the culture that we're trying to develop. Because I think it's only fair that we're clear about that, because that's the environment in which they're going to work. We are not a school for everyone, and that's not some kind of elitist statement. Simply, we are being trying to be as transparent as possible. We are about the school that we are building, what we expect, so that it we get the people that want to buy into that as well. What I've been really interested in is inevitably, we've talked about the challenges of opening a new school. And actually, the teachers that we've appointed have been genuinely excited about that. They have an attitude which is so engaging and really, as I say, it's energizing in the sense that they recognize what a new school needs, how they can take all the learnings that they've gained over their careers and help to feed them into the school as well. So it's about creating that conversation, it's about creating that community. Over the last few days, we've had our first face-to-face induction sessions with our teachers, one in London, one here. I'm very proud of the work we've done with our recruitment because we've got an amazing bunch of people that will be joining us. Really exciting. And we talked about teachers, we've talked about buildings, we've talked about all the things that go into making a school, other than the really obvious one, which is, of course, students. Can't have a school without students. Now, again, you're a founding school. There is no track record at the moment for Harrow UAE. How do you go about selling that proposition to prospective parents? What is it that interests them? What do you talk about when you're talking to prospective parents? Well, I mean, the first thing to step back from what we talk about is to make sure you are talking continually. We are doing as many sessions with parents as we can, both online but also face to face, as frequently we think we can. We're very lucky in the sense that I'm currently sitting in what's called the Harrow Pavilion. Dubai British School Jamira has been kind enough to let us use some of the spaces in their schools. So we've got a site where we can actually host as many online events and face-to-face events as we can. But I think it's that same point again, being utterly transparent about what we're going to be. We are not a panacea. We're not going to create an education environment that is right for every pupil or satisfies every parent's needs. If we try, we will fail. So we are clear about what we're going to do. Now, we're lucky that that has made China record with many parents, and we've we're really delighted with the number of pupils that will be joining us in August, and hopefully we'll continue with that recruitment process. But it's just being about transparent and giving parents an opportunity to ask questions, um, to be clear about what the answer is, and just engage in that conversation. We host a variety of different events online, trying to ask the questions, whether it's about the curriculum, whether it's about the dining options, whether it's about the house system, giving them as much information as we can. It's very easy to make promises that we subsequently don't make it. But I think there's an integrity piece there that says, you know, I have said very clearly, these are the class sizes that there will be in the first year of operation, but they will also be the class sizes in the fifth year of operation and then the tenth year of operation, because we need to make sure that what we commit to now is something that we do moving forward. Again, the way in which you make that persuasive is you say why we're doing this? What is the purpose for these class sizes? What is the logic behind it? It's not simply we're going to start here and then cram in as many kids as we can. Actually, it's based on very sound educational reasons. Those are why we've come up with the numbers we are. And I think that that justification provides credibility to what we're saying. I'm also delighted with the confidence that the parents are putting into us because, as I've said already, I'm a parent. I've my children have been through school and I know the importance of the decision that parents are making. And inevitably, there's a leap of faith that they're taking. Now, I think there's a leap of faith in every context that when you're joining a school, but parents, uh Harrow, don't have the opportunity to talk to parents that have been there already. So it's that constant engagement, it's that constant discussion, absolute articulation of the culture and the ambitions that we have for the children, and the people that we're going to help to develop alongside the parents as well. So, yeah, clarity is really important, honesty, and just constantly engaging in those discussions. So, back to the transparency culture ethos, it's running through everything that you're saying, which is really nice to hear. You've been here for 14 years. This is your third school establishment. You've got some experience, let's say. Launching a new school gives you a bit of a chance to have a bit of a spring clean, I guess, of structures and systems. And what are you going to be bringing to Harrow that you've thought has been useful? And what are you going to be leaving behind in terms of what you've learned over that time here about what's useful for running a you know a good school? You're right. I I mean I've I've led Jameer College, which is part of the GEMS Network, and I've led Deer International School, which is part of the Alpha Tame Education Foundation. I'm hugely proud of what the schools have achieved when at those times, and indeed since I left them as well. But it's a very, very different role to because both of those schools, when I went to the position, were established. And I have learned, I couldn't write how much I've learned over those years in terms of my understandings of leadership and things like that. But I always talk to my teams about, you know, we've got to change the direction of the ship. And these are super tankers and they wedded to a particular direction if you do want to change them, it's hard. Um, I think we have developed the both those schools over the time I was there. But you're absolutely right, there's an opportunity to start afresh. You know, changing a direction is difficult. Taking uh an understanding into a new school is a very different reality. So, yeah, harvesting my experience and my you know where I've got things wrong on many occasions. But Dubai is like that. We change all the time, and we you know, I think leaders in this part of the world, and indeed all staff, have to be able to pivot very quickly into change what they're doing. So I think also the world's changing. You know, 15 years ago, we weren't talking about how we're going to be using mobile phones in classrooms. But it's not just me, I've got a senior leadership team. It's it's worth pointing out all of my extended senior leadership team that I've pointed for Arrow are currently based in the UAE. So they've all got a good experience. And it's about having that conversation and talking to them about what we can harvest from our own experience and putting into the school. So technology is one of them, the way in which we interrelate with parents is another, our approach to discipline will be another. All of these things that we can look back on. And also, I mean, Simon Sinek talks about worthy rivals. We will always look at what other schools do well, not in a in a competitive way, but to recognize expertise where it is elsewhere. I think one of the things that's changed most significantly in my time in Dubai is the way in which schools explicitly or implicitly work together, but I do gain an understanding and recognition of each other. Schools don't compete. We can't compete. It's naive to think that one school wants another school to fail so that we can outshine them. We want all of the schools to be successful, but we equally recognize where expertise lies elsewhere. So it's it's really it's gaining all that understanding and insight from right away across the team to make sure that it's from the outset, but also using the experience of working with Harrow. I mean, we work very closely with them. I speak to Harrow probably every week. I sit, I was there this weekend recently, and yeah, we were holding events there, but it also gives you an opportunity to walk the school to see what they're doing, to understand what they're doing. So it's garnering all the information we can from as widely as possible so that we get things as right as we can from the outset, but also understand that we're going to get things wrong, and that's okay, and we'll need to change things, and that's okay. But yeah, it's really fascinating to look at that, to understand, you know, from that mindset which says, if I knew then what I know now, what would we do? I'm also very lucky. Uh, Talem opens a school every year, um, and I've had lengthy conversations with Amy at DBS Mirror, with Lee here at DBSJ. Again, what what would you have done if you knew then what you know now to garner their information? So, yeah, it's uh it's an interesting process. Nice to see that uh that spirit of collaboration going on, and I think you're right, it's something that whilst not necessarily unique to this part of the world, I do think it's something that we do incredibly well here. It's core to the ethos of BSME, that that collaboration rather than competition. We're all looking to elevate education, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. And it and I do want to say, I do think that BSME plays a plays a major role in that. It was an interesting uh I'm on the board of COBIS, the COVIDS conference happened recently, and one of the questions they said is look, this Middle East has been uh had some challenges of late when when we come to the conference, do we want to get the Middle Eastern representatives together? And the response was no, we already talk to each other most days, anyhow. So, you know, that that community and that collaboration that exists right now across the city and and across the country is is so integral to what we do. And the BSME, I think, has a has a major should be very proud of what it's achieved in that. Thank you. I'm gonna finish with, well, almost finish, with asking you, you've reflected a little bit there on uh your time at JC and at uh DIS. What are your hopes for for Harrow? If you were looking back 10 years from now, what would you hope that Harrow had contributed to the to the UAE wider education and community? First ambition is to make sure that the school is successfully established and the pupils are thriving. One of the things I'm hugely proud of at Deer International School is we moved the school to an overall outstanding rating in DSIB, but actually we were one of very, very few schools that gained an outstanding and well-being judgment with DSIB. And that's not easy. I don't see them as separate. I see the overall outstanding rating as a consequence of the focus on well-being. And I think that really that focus that the UAE has on well-being is crucial to success. So I would like there to be a full school, a happy school where children are thriving. For me, progress is much more important than entertainment. We need to recognise that for some children a B grade, for example, is a greater achievement than an A star is for others. Where pupils feel recognized, where they've had an opportunity to explore passions that they leave school with, yes, great qualifications, but a much greater understanding of the things that they want to carry with them for the rest of their lives, the things that are going to drive them. And I'm not necessarily talking employment. That we have pupils that leave who are good people. You know, we we talk a lot about the the Herovians and whether it's Maro Etogee or Byron or Nehru or you know, these are famous men, but no one's talking about the qualifications that they got. They're talking about the people they are and the contribution they made. I also want Harrow to commit contribute to the wider education community. And we you'll be aware that when I was at DIRI established SIA, the Center for Education, Action Research, that was a deliberate strategy to try and contribute to the conversation about education. Education in 10 years' time will look very different from what it is today, in the same way that it looks very different from what it was 10 years ago. And I think great schools help to guide that conversation, make sure there is that conversation, contribute to that conversation so we can all benefit from the learning that takes place. I think there's two types of way of looking at a school. One is inwardly looking and focusing on what they do. The second one is collaborating with others and sharing practice and gaining insight from others. And I've always been an advocate of the second one. So a really engaged school, um, well, schools with with Abu Dhabi as well, uh, that are part of the community that are contributing to the conversation, um, so that we ensure that young people are leaving as best equipped as we can for their futures. That's really lovely to hear, and hopefully will be exactly the case when you look back in 10 years' time. Now I'm going to finish with with a question that probably will seem quite strange to you because I know that we've actually had this conversation with other people multiple times over the years. But I'm asking for not for myself because I do know the answer, but for the benefit of people listening, we always want to acknowledge just how impactful teachers are. So, who was the most influential teacher for you during your school days and why, Simon? It's interesting. I had a conversation about this last week with someone, and we say, Well, why do we always say who was the influential teacher? Why can't they all be? But that's a question for another time. Um, I know I was hugely influenced by my teachers, I think it was we all are. For me, my maths teacher was a gentleman called Dave Jeffers, and I love maths, and those people that know me might find that a little surprising. But the reason I loved his lessons is because they were a conversation with a friend. The reason that you didn't mess Dave around was because why would you do that? I mean, it wasn't even a it wasn't even a question. He was a great teacher, he was a wonderful person. I actually had the opportunity to tell him that. I got in touch with him a few years ago and took him out to dinner and just said, Look, you've made a massive contribution to my life. It's largely because of you that I'm a teacher, and thank you. And that was actually because I was in a meeting with Sir Christopher Stone, who was the chief education officer for GEMS, and we were talking to two and a half thousand teachers, and he made the point and said, Have you ever gone back and told that person? And I was sitting on a stage going, no, I haven't, and I should. So I did I did go back and see Dave, and we kept in touch till the point where he sadly died a few years ago. But yeah, it was Dave. It was I I I can tell you where I sat in his classroom. And I think for me, it was that understanding that this is uh this is a relationship, it's a it's a conversation that you have with with people. Teaching shouldn't necessarily be some kind of uh dominating um, do as I say, relationship. That was never Dave. He he was just a really nice person that I enjoyed spending time with, and we spent really quite a lot of that time talking about maths. Oh, that's lovely to hear. And it also sounds like it's something that you'd highly recommend to go back and tell whoever was your own influential teacher, tell them that. I was supposed to ask the question if you haven't, why haven't you? And and not I didn't for a long time, so I'm not sitting in any kind of uh in position of moral high ground, but uh it's a lovely thing to say. Um, and he was very grateful and flattered that I said it, but actually it prompted a relationship that we continued on, as I say, to the way he died. Again, just having a conversation with a nice person. And uh, I think if you can do that, you're not in a bad place. A really positive note to end on. Thank you, Simon. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for some really, really valuable insights into um not just Harrow and what you're um aiming for there, but also you know, the establishment of a new school and uh everything that's involved in that. Looks like it's shaping up to be uh an exciting year ahead for you and for the team there, and wishing you all the very best. Thanks all for listening and happy teaching.