Homelessness (Part 1): How People Actually Become Homeless

In this first episode of two parts, we sit down with special guests Michelle Harfield, Turning Tides and Ian Wilkins, Crawley Open House for a candid, eye-opening conversation about the real causes of homelessness in Sussex & Surrey — and why the story we often hear barely scratches the surface. In the next episode we will tackle escaping homelessness and the services provided by Turning Tides and Crawley Open House.

Together, we challenge common assumptions, moving beyond the narrow image of rough sleeping to uncover a far more complex reality. From the quiet instability of unsafe housing to the long, uncertain stretches in temporary accommodation and hostels, we trace the real pathways into homelessness — shaped by childhood experiences, trauma, sudden financial shocks, and a cascade of life events that rarely happen in isolation.

We explore:

• your 500 comments in 48hrs to our blunt Facebook post across a number of local groups 'Why are so many homeless in this town?' 
• why “homelessness” extends far beyond life on the streets 
• how it’s rarely a single cause, but a compounding series of setbacks 
• the often-hidden role of childhood trauma and adverse experiences 
• addiction as both a coping mechanism and a consequence — not a simple cause 
• how Crawley Open House maintains clear boundaries to keep residents safe 
• how Turning Tides uses harm minimisation to reduce risk and support recovery 
• the scale of hidden homelessness in Crawley — and why “temporary” housing can last for years 
• the impact of evictions, the Renters’ Rights Act, and the shift from Section 21 to Section 8 
• why early support — from families to children’s mental health services — is key to long-term prevention 

If this conversation resonates with you, follow us on Spotify, Amazon Music, or Apple Podcasts.

Roundtable Featuring:  Special Guests - Michelle Harfield (Turning Tides), Ian Wilkins (Crawley Open House), Iqbal Khan, Aga Es, Maureen Jones & Micaela Leal Host: Clive Hilton. 

Please click on 'Send a text' above & join our Facebook group to share your perspective and suggestions for future topics - Thank you for your interest! Clive.

Transcript

Why Homelessness Feels Distant

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox. Real viewpoints, real opinions, and a balanced conversation on the community issues that matter.

Meet Turning Tides And Open House

SPEAKER_04 0:10

Welcome along. It's the Sussex and Surrey soapbox getting into homelessness this week. And uh it's one of those funny topics that we think happens to everyone else. It won't happen to us. But um the reality is it's a lot closer to home than we might believe. And also, I'm not sure if you've seen on Facebook, we posted a comment: why are so many people homeless in this town? We've had hundreds of replies over 48 hours. We're getting into that, but it's definitely more complex than people are led to believe. So we're going to be doing some myth busting, we're going to be getting into the facts, and we're going to be finding out about the human element of homelessness across Sussex and Surrey. And we're lucky to be joined by two amazing guests. We've got Michelle from Turning Tides and Ian from Crawley Open House. Between them, decades of experience helping people on the front line through homelessness. Now, because this is such a big topic, in this episode, we are getting into how people become homeless. What's the definition of homeless? Um, and in the next episode, we will turn our attention to how do people escape homelessness? How do we look after, how do we help? So that's the next episode. Now, because it's such a big topic, you can skip around this. You'll notice the chapter headings. So if you look down wherever you consume your podcast from, you can jump through the chapters and get to the bits that are relevant to you. But without further ado, uh, let's have an introduction. Ian from Crawley Open House.

SPEAKER_06 1:35

Good evening. Thank you for having me. Yeah, my name's Ian. Um, I've worked at Crawley Open House for 23 years, so done all sorts of things from um drug and alcohol work to outreach work, and now I'm responsible for trying to keep the money coming into the charity. So um I wouldn't say I'm an expert. I think this is not something you become an expert on, but I've certainly got a wee bit of experience.

SPEAKER_04 1:59

But um, you've got decades, decades of experience. You've dedicated an awful lot of time in, to be fair, and and you've helped other organisations as well, like Renewed Hope and Yeah, well I love the way you're so humble.

SPEAKER_06 2:14

I think um you don't get into this for sort of money or anything, you do it because you kind of care, you know. And I think I joined Open House as a volunteer and just met people in the hostel who were so close to being me. Do you know what I mean? And my family and friends. They weren't, as you said earlier, you know, they weren't from a parallel universe, they were real people whose lives had just sort of unraveled before them and they'd ended up in a homeless shelter. And I just found it kind of fascinating. Um, and so yeah, I'm still there all these years later.

SPEAKER_04 2:48

So it started off with volunteering, it wasn't your plan to go into the charity.

SPEAKER_06 2:53

Just serving teas and coffees on a Friday morning. Um, that was 2002, yeah, and I've I've never left.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

And to your left, we've got Michelle from uh Turning Tides. Hello, another person that's dedicated a lot of time. Now, your official title, you're into communications, aren't you? But you have actually been on the front line for quite a few years.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

So I'm I'm the communications officer for Turning Tides now. That's a position I've been there for about six months. Um, but um I was on the front line as a um multi-complex um needs support coordinator um for five of those five of the years that I've actually worked um at the charity. So um this was just sort of like a a bit of a change of pace. It's really interesting using operational experience, that frontline experience actually into comms and you know, um sharing sort of a lot of my talking about my experiences as a frontline worker and what I've really seen on that frontline.

Facebook Sentiment And Myth Busting

SPEAKER_04 3:49

So and we really appreciate having you here with us because um we were a little cheeky. 48 hours ago, we did ask various Facebook groups uh just to get the public sentiment on homelessness. We asked a bit of a cheeky question. We said, Why are so many homeless in this town? And we did that to Crawley, East Grinstead, Red Hill, Burgess Hill. Uh, and we had over the space of 48 hours, we had something like 500 comments across those posts. And then we used AI, uh, put all the comments in there to get a rough idea of sentiment and what do people out there think the causes of homelessness are? And we've got the report here with us, and it'd be good to get into that in a moment. We're gonna do some myth busting. So if you're listening to this, homelessness is the topic. We're gonna do some myth busting to try and dispel some of this and get into the facts. That's why we've got Michelle and Ian with us, because they know the facts when it comes to this. And also the brilliant round table. Let's go through the rest of the introductions.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Good evening, everyone. I'm Maureen Jones or Wiley Jones. I'm a psychotherapist, very interested in mental health issues surrounding homelessness, uh, alcohol and addiction, obviously, consequences and causes. So uh yeah, I'm very interested to hear from the experts that are sitting here tonight. Hello, I'm Michaela.

SPEAKER_08 5:11

Um, I work in hospitality and I recently moved to Crowley.

SPEAKER_05 5:16

Oh, I'm If Balkan, I'm from uh founder of Tessa's Kitchen. We work with the homeless, feed them, and uh the wider community, anyone who's hungry.

SPEAKER_04 5:26

And also a lot of lived experience as we've heard in other episodes, but we'll get into that once we get into the conversation. And finally, around the table this evening.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Uh good evening. Uh I'm Agnieszka, I'm a resident of Dawkink for the last eight years, born and bred in Poland.

What Counts As Homelessness

SPEAKER_04 5:43

Now, this conversation obviously there's a lot to homelessness, uh, and we're gonna do the myth busting in just a moment. Um, and there's two kinds of areas we want to explore. One is the causes of homelessness, um, as we do that myth busting, and also the root causes, and what's the definition? So, when we say homeless, what does it really mean? It doesn't necessarily mean just someone in a sleeping bag in the doorway. Uh so we'll get into that as well. And then we're gonna, in the second part, we'll get on to so how best to help people that are homeless and how to help them escape homelessness and what are the difficulties and the challenges. Because as we've seen in some of these Facebook posts, they say, Oh, why don't you just go and live with a family member or get a job? It's quite unhelpful, but we'll get into some of that in just a moment. But first, uh Michelle, you've been noticing some of these Facebook posts. What's what sort of reflections have you had?

SPEAKER_02 6:36

And I think um it reminds me why um I I do what I do um now in terms of moving into communications and educating people because what I saw in the comments was um you know a really sort of um sad, I guess, misunderstanding of what homelessness actually is. Um, you know, we a lot of the comments talked about people that were, you know, they were choosing this, they were choosing addiction, they were choosing um, you know, to be homeless through many, many different reasons. And it and it's at its core. Nobody would choose to be homelessness. In point of fact, homelessness is usually um the outcome of choices consistently being withdrawn from people, um, leaving them with no choice but to become homeless. Um, and you know, it comes down to homelessness is a is a battle for survival, whether you're rough sleeping, intemporary accommodation, living in a situation that is technically homelessness, but maybe still with that roof over the head because it's crowd overcrowding, or you know, if you've got horrendous amounts of mould growing up your up your walls, that could be serious enough for you to be uh classed as homeless because that home is no longer habitable for you.

SPEAKER_04 7:55

And also there is a sense of comfort in thinking, oh, it's everyone else that suffers this and not not. I think you know, from people I've spoken to, quite often there's a s a sequence of events you might lose your job, your relationship breaks down, a couple of events, and generally we're all two or three paychecks away from being in that very difficult situation.

SPEAKER_06 8:17

In my experience, people very rarely present with one issue. You know, people nearly always present with trauma, pain, debt, mental health issues, physical health, you know, people present it with a very complicated package. And I think what I took from the Facebook things is people would want it to be very it's this or it's that or it's get a job sorted, yeah, and it's not. I was asked recently, I did a talk, and somebody asked the question which made me really think is what if in you in all your years of work in open house, you know, is there a theme that runs through the people who who live there? And there is a theme. When you get chatting to people, the theme is childhood trauma. And nearly everyone I've chatted to over the years, when you really get to speak to someone, has had a been neglected as a child, abandoned as a child, abused as a child, brought their mum and dad up rather than their mum and dad bringing them up, you know, and you get so many variations on the same story of I never really had a chance at the beginning of my life, and 20 years later my life is still built on shaking sand. And and that I think is a really misunderstood area that if you kind of miss school through no fault of yours and you miss the sort of loving attachments when you're growing up that lots of us take for granted, then that will come out at some point, you know, and that will come out because then you suddenly get an unhealthy relationship with drugs or alcohol, perhaps. You have a you get into unhealthy relationships because you've never really known what a positive relationship is. And and and that that underpins an awful lot of homelessness because people just don't can't quite fit into the system which we've created for ourselves, and they sort of tumble through it and end up with nowhere to live.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

So and and that hidden trauma as a child. I mean, I've heard people say that your relationship with your parents is your relationship with life. Um and Maureen, with the work that you do, do you find that this comes up?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Oh gosh, definitely, yes. Um, and it trauma childhood trauma, all those causes of trauma that uh Ian mentioned there will lead to often lead to alcohol and drug addictions, um, and you know, that need to escape uh in their minds from it all. Um and people will will and through that they will make difficult bad choices sometimes, true, and they will be being perceived as being slightly misfits um and not actually and then f and finding it very difficult to fit into society as as normal as uh the rest of us who've had more healthy uh childhoods um will will just take that, as you say, very much for granted. So it's a very complex thing. Um but yeah, I think it's very hard as much as you try, and people would say, well, you know, you're an adult now, you just need to put all that behind you. But these things scar and they scar very, very deep.

Childhood Trauma As A Hidden Thread

SPEAKER_04 11:25

Um that turns us into the people that we become, either good or bad. And and I think the other surprising thing across all the Facebook group comments is there's quite a lot of judgment, isn't there? There's quite a lot of people dishing up, making some assumptions, getting right in there, um, and being a little bit unhelpful, a little bit judgmental. I'm not sure what happened to humanity. Uh, I think you know, during COVID, we were a lot kinder to each other, and and it that that didn't shine in the Facebook post that we saw. And this comes back to the question we asked: why are so many people homeless in this town? Which is a bit cheeky because homelessness isn't as bad as it's been in the past, has it, Ian? So back in the Victorian days.

SPEAKER_06 12:06

Yeah, I think context is a good thing. Yeah, I'm reading a book about Victorian London when tens of thousands of people were on the street, and um so yeah, it's still too high, don't get me wrong, but um I think it's quite useful to look, yeah, even globally, you know, Britain has more of a um social services and a third sector looking after people who find themselves homeless far more than some countries do. So I think, you know, although I'm not minimising the problem, but I think in some countries you wouldn't have a turning tides in a crawley open house working their guts out to try and look after people. You wouldn't have a social security system flawed as it is. Um so there are there is a safety net which you know I'm grateful for. But yeah, it's it has been worse, but it also could be an awful lot better at the moment as well.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

And we're gonna come on to your services, both turning tides and crawley open house and uh and what you offer and how busy you are, and that's just testament to how how there is an issue. But on the way in, you were saying interestingly, Vancouver has more homeless people in that one town than the whole of the UK.

SPEAKER_06 13:15

Um, so certainly when I was there two years ago, that was I don't want to misquote Vancouver, but I actually was taken to see East Hastings Street on the east side of Vancouver. Vancouver is just beautiful, don't get me wrong. Most of Vancouver's stunning, and yet there's this really small condensed area of a huge problem, um, which they don't quite ought to deal with. And the the one number one reason for it is fentanyl. So there's an opioid crisis, particularly on the west coast of the states and Canada. So, yeah, uh context is a good thing. I think sometimes you need to lift your head a little bit beyond just the UK, maybe, and and and see that it's a global curse, you know, homelessness.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

So and and just quickly, just reflecting on the public sort of sentiment on this uh before we move on. What do we think the biggest misconception is that the public have?

SPEAKER_06 14:10

What it's actually got in my experience, it's got better. But when I started out about 20 years ago, we quite often heard, oh, they're just a bunch of no good junkies. You know, the crawley open house is full of no good junkies. That was always the kind of banter around Crawley. And and yes, some people have struggles with addiction, but you know, my take on all this is we're all a muddle. If we're honest, if we around this table, actually we're honest, we're all a muddle. And how we deal with that muddle, we all do it in different ways, and and and I I found my life change slightly when I realized that you know what, I I've got no position to judge anybody because I'm a mess. Yeah, and so is everybody else, and we just all are in different stages of the city. We're just finding our own way through life as a journey, and I think you know, yes, there are people at Crawley Omen House in a muddle, but I when I chat to them, I share, look, mate, I'm a muddle as well, so we're all in a muddle. Your consequences of your muddle are just a little bit more than mine, maybe at the moment. But I think that's what I have learned is drop the judgment, you know, because we could all be in a turning tides property or a crawley open house property um through very like a few collisions of circumstance, you know, and that's what it is. When you chat to people, you know, we can all maybe deal with one blow. I chatted to a guy recently at Open House, he'd had three blows, he'd lost his mum, he'd lost his job, and he'd lost his partner in like six months. Wow. And he said, Ian, I could probably have dealt with one of those things, but when they all happened almost simultaneously, it just it was swept my legs from under me, uh, in his words. And I think that could be any of us, yeah. And and how do we know how we would deal with multiple traumatic events sideswiping us, you know? So I think that's that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

And also for for Crawley Open House and you to be a kind of safety net there. Um trouble is we need the safety net to be bigger, don't we? And we're gonna come on to services and and and the county councils and everything else later. Uh but I I tell you what, the the conversations we have had over the years, if only we could bottle a little bit of the Ian compassion and and and give it out to others, that that would have gone down well on Facebook, I I think. Um so Michelle, any misconceptions that you've picked up on that we need to myth bust?

SPEAKER_02 16:29

I think I think myth busting the idea that um that people are to blame for um becoming homeless. I think you know Ian just says some really fantastic things things around, you know, the more people experience like the things that are considered the core leading causes of homelessness, that the the closer they are to having that one final event that so uh when I was reading um the thingy, it was the final event, one event away, that's not always the case, as you were just saying, um Ian, you know, one of those events probably could have survived it. I think all of us could survive one of those events, but when you start having multiple ones, so you lose your job and then your you know, then your relationship breaks down and you might lose your job and then your savings run out. The more of those leading causes that somebody experiences, that's always the closer that they're getting towards homelessness. Um, so and and I think that's really important to um sort of myth bust because yeah, it's not necessarily just one event away. There's other stuff that go going on, and actually you don't know how close one of your friends, one of your families may actually be to homelessness because they might be experiencing several of those, and they could be the next one could be the one event away for that family member or that friend. So it's really important, I think, to myth bust that idea.

How Close Any Of Us Are

SPEAKER_04 17:49

I don't know about anyone else around the table, but I always feel quite scared that literally two or three months away from that if something happens with the job, particularly in the cost of living and and and the squeeze, and we covered that a previous episode as well. Anyone from around the table, how how close do you feel to homelessness? Any experience of it or or does it worry you?

SPEAKER_01 18:10

I think it does. I think it worries people even, you know, that you might not even consider being near homelessness, but people with mortgages, you know, the mortgage rates are going up, you lose your job, um, you can't make your mortgage payments, you know, that that fear of recession. That happened a lot back in the 80s, didn't it? And 2008, when there was a financial crisis. Um, so no one's immune from it, um, even the middle classes, you know. So it's not just people in rented accommodation, it's it's people that think they've got assets, and you can lose those assets very quickly in with a poor set of uh events that happened here.

SPEAKER_04 18:47

Well, also rental, right? Rental came up massively, especially with some of the policy changes in rental and people being evicted, and we'll get to that later as well. Um, anyone else from around the table here?

SPEAKER_05 18:59

In my personal experience, um I stayed in the open house. Uh I come out of prison in 2009. A lot of things happened. Obviously, I was away for three years, so I didn't have anywhere to go. And then, yeah, I went to open house, started getting my life together, and then my family blessed, got me back, you know, in the house. But while I was there, I got to see the work that you guys actually do. And even today I was telling Clive, uh, so we're feeding in town three days a week. And today I had two people come up to me, two separate people who are street homeless who come up to me and said that I'm in the open house now. One uh one just got in today, and uh another one was yesterday. And uh so I get to see that, and and and that's just two. There's another two people in there that I've been feeding for over a year and a half, who now I don't need to feed, they live in the open house. And uh there's they still message me, you know what I mean? They're they're on my Facebook. But I see one of them the other day and he's like skipping around town, you know, like he's and this is a guy who used to sleep outside the old Mark Suspense's. Not everyone is a drug addict in the situation, not everyone has mental health issues, it's just life circumstances.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

And it's complex, and I think it's gonna be interesting hearing your journey through it and how you escaped homelessness when we get to that section later. Uh, but big hand to Ick Bel Khan, of course, now does Tess's kitchen, feeds homeless people three times a week and looking to do that potentially in Worthing.

SPEAKER_05 20:31

Um that's the next step, but not just the homeless, anyone who's hungry.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

Lovely, and that and that takes a lot of effort every week, consistently to do that three times a week. Well done, Ickbel. Very good. Anyone else want to share anything about the comments we've seen on Facebook? Michaela?

SPEAKER_08 20:46

I think that the the people on Facebook, um, I can I can easily assume that they are people that have help, family support, and everything, and that in situations like this homeless, they could possibly end up the same way and they don't even see it. And it's easier, especially for immigrants that come here and don't have anyone. If you get in a in a hard situation, you don't have a a dad or or a grandma or someone that you can just sleep over until you temporarin get your stuff together, and that it makes such a big difference. I'm lucky enough to have family here, but I afford my own place for 10 years, and now I'm living with my dad and my gr and my brother because it's so hard to afford the place on my own. And if you're not in a relationship, then it's just one rent for one, but they don't care if it's one or two people, it's one room. So that's what you're paying for a studio or a flat with one room. And the other assumption that people do is that everyone have addictions uh and are homeless. They they think that they had this before, but it's the trauma and the stress that makes people homeless that never had addictions before actually start to use this as a mechanism to cope. So coping, yeah, and especially to sleep because they are cold, they are hungry, so they're gonna end up drinking or taking substance just to be able to. sleep which is so important it can cause it can cause so many mental issues to not sleep even just for two nights. So I think people need to every time I try to give money to a homeless, there's always someone that says or thinks, oh why she's doing that, he's gonna spend on drugs.

What Actually Helps On The Street

SPEAKER_04 22:16

And then people And this is a debate we're gonna get to this how best to help if you notice someone on the street what's the best way of helping is it money is it food is it coffee? We're gonna get to that later. It's a bit of a a debate in our heads and we were talking about that before before we pressed the record so we're gonna revisit that as well. Now some cheeky thoughts that came up on Facebook some people said well why don't they just go on a dinghy come into the country and they get a hotel now we're we're we're saving that for another podcast when it comes to the immigration policy and that and that piece but I mean it's a fair point right it's a fair point it's difficult to argue I'm just gonna jump in quickly just a point on what she was she was saying here uh about you may not be using drugs before you hit the streets but once you get there it's a lot more likely that you will try to and and and it must be misery loves company.

SPEAKER_05 23:10

I like that phrase it's very good sad sadly it's very true.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

Misery loves uh company um and it's a tough one right Ian I know when we've spoken before there are some very strict boundaries if you're in the crawley open house and you're resident there when it comes to drugs and boundaries there are there are quite strict because it is a vicious circle isn't it and quite often you help people and then it might be that they go back to the streets and then come back again for various reasons. It's not always a direct thing of they come from the street come to crawley open house and then move on. I mean there's a lot of good cases I think 60% go in that in that way if I'm not wrong.

SPEAKER_06 23:49

Yeah more than that now we're up to about 65% of people in the hostel are resettled somewhere more permanent which we're proud of actually as an organization because that's we wish it was 100% but life isn't quite like that. I think what I've learned is nothing really goes in straight lines. So if we look back over five years of someone's experience they might well have been an open house three times um they do well they do badly they get arrested they do well they get arrested they go to hospital they get so and that's Igbel might you know you'll back me up probably but yeah nothing very few people follow a kind of neat progression you know it's a bit like snakes and ladders you go up and you go down and but over time our job is to try and help people get closer to independent living and closer to getting a job and we can't do that for them. You know we can create an environment where it's more likely that they'll do it for themselves and that's our job is to do that. But in answer to your first question you know open house you can't use drink or drugs on the on the project but we're very well aware that a lot of people are an active addiction so they'll use in the community but they're not allowed back in intoxicated. Their version of intoxicated is sometimes a little bit different to our our version of intoxicated so we have big security gates and we will keep people the other side of those gates if they're we always say to people don't lose your room for the for the sake of you've just had your benefits payment and you're a bit squiffy just stay outside for a few more hours and come back when you're a little bit presenting a little bit better you know so zero tolerance on drink and drugs zero tolerance on violence and the people who want that are the people living there. So the people who want to feel safe are the people who are living in open house at the moment and so they they set the rules really and and they um they're the ones who whenever we talk to them want us to be very boundary on people's behaviour because they want to feel safe because lots of them haven't felt safe for years you know so um what I'm I'm probably not answering your question.

SPEAKER_04 25:59

No you are you answered it answered it very well and probably similar as well Michelle with turning tides in terms of those boundaries.

Zero Tolerance Versus Harm Reduction

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Not necessarily no okay um so three of our projects um are harm minimization projects which we do allow our clients to use substances on the premises um and we support them um we obviously don't necessarily want them to do so but we know that they're going to so we create a safe environment for them. The intention it is by using the harm minimization process is that if we can stabilize that drug use, if we can stabilize the um alcohol use we can start moving that person towards a space where they're going to start thinking about going into recovery.

SPEAKER_04 26:42

So then we have a we do have a so you embrace it you embrace it and work with it and and encourage it but you try to minimize it over time?

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:53

That's what I didn't know. Because I know they do that in Europe. So they brought that to the UK now?

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Um it's been legal for some time and I can't remember the specific legislation that allows it.

SPEAKER_05 27:04

Wait so in the UK at the moment they've got legal places for people to use drugs.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

Yeah that's the first well is it one of those bits we're going to edit earlier.

SPEAKER_05 27:17

No I don't edit out there's no because we're learning and obviously the people is it she said it is not harmonisation harmonisation projects are legal harmonization projects are handing out is but it's illegal to think about drugs on the street.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

That's illegal no but you're saying it's legal in in one of your places what I'm saying what I'm saying is is that harmonimisation by allowing people to um use substances in our project You embrace it and allow it as a path to recovery.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

And there are certain rules around this this isn't just sort of like a full on um not quite the picture Ig Bell's painting we can't if we f if we know that people are dealing in our our projects and such you know we have to deal with that robustly and actually one of the substances that's absolutely excluded in the law from us from you know being used for harmonization is actually cannabis of um which surprises a lot of people because um you know a lot of people see that as a as a lesser job but actually helped me with my arthritis oh doesn't yeah it's us yeah um that those those substances you know that so there are rules around this this this isn't like a raging free for all but the I idea is you can't smoke cannabis but you can inject heroin absolutely right just sorry I'm just I'm just mind blowing yes definitely that's like a legal crack we're all we're all being educated on this one but you may not be able to stand inside just stand outside I think we're zooming in to one particular service and big bell seeing some of the benefits of that I'm actually shocked like is that the world we live in now where you can just like that's scary I've got four kids. If we think about the cycle if we think about it in the terms of the cycle of change if you think about people that are going into hard minimization at being what is called preconception that gives us time to work with somebody to stabilize their youth so that they can move to the next part of the cycle which is to actually seriously contemplate what comes next um so these three pro um yeah it is three projects so we have these three harmonization projects but we then also have other projects where we don't allow substances um on site um and um places like the recovery project is actually completing us a zero tolerance whereas um others are that yes people can use uh off site but not on site so we do still have that but we do also have that harmonisation pathway for sorry I'm just like I'm I'm actually mine like I was on heroin for 15 years I just never knew there would come a time in the UK where you can just buy your drugs outside and go inside and uh and use without having to worry about I don't know the law is complex like sorry it's this is just mostly me just learning.

SPEAKER_04 30:12

Like I'm uh you can buy heroin and just go inside of your establishment they can't deal with each other so you know they can't sell it to each other at the end of the yeah stand outside across the road like the week I mean you're from Portugal Portugal has the same type of yeah we we are allowed to stalk wig because it's no no I'm talking about with heroin and crack everything is uh no no that's uh no no it is they've legalised they've legalised yeah yeah yeah yeah heroin is legal in such a thing oh my god yeah yeah but actually I think it's made a positive impact it's become a public health issue public health criminal justice issue now people listening at home to this if if they were to do your jobs for a week what would they be surprised at seeing on the front line that might change their perceptions and help them be less judgmental I think that actually that these are people who have genuine lives and have genuine experiences that are not dissimilar.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

In homelessness we um in homelessness my experience of of um the general public has been that they very much judge people on where they are now not who they were or how they got there or their aspirations so I think that would be that is often you know that would be quite a big shock for a lot of people to realise that this is actually a whole person that should not be defined by their their housing status or their or substance use or their mental health status. These are people with real lives real experiences and are in often incredibly clever articulate people that there is you know there's just an assumption that homelessness people people experiencing homelessness are I you know lacking intelligence making bad choices that's not the case.

Crawley Numbers And Temporary Accommodation

SPEAKER_06 32:14

Whenever I chat to people I just always say if you if I took you to open house now you'd be very surprised at the people you'd meet there. For example we've had a guy recently staying with us who said three years ago I dropped donations at your gate in my BMW with my daughters in the car with a big house near Ryegate with a nice job and a nice wife and he said three years later I'm living in a blinking homeless shelter and his thing was drinking he lost his partner because of his drinking he lost access to see his kids because of his drinking he lost his job because of his drinking and all the time he was going through that trauma what did he do? He drank himself silly because it's the only thing that bluffed out the pain of it all and he ended up living in crawley open house but was he a bad guy? No was he an intelligent guy? Yes you know and and he could have been your neighbour your friend your brother you know so I think the point is as was said earlier it's not something people people don't it's not on anyone's bucket list to live in crawley open house people live in crawley open house because they've run out of every other option on God's earth you know and that could genuinely be anyone who just can't pay the rent who's got themselves into some bad business dealings who's lost their family sometimes through their fault sometimes through not their fault. You know it's just full of human beings who are just in a mess and we're all capable of going through chapters of life when we go in we get into a mess. That's that's what I wish people could understand a bit more.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

That's the other phrase that we like life's a bit of a muddle for all of us around the table and sometimes those consequences show up a little bit more seriously and yeah it's a lovely story uh and lovely uh reflection there Michelle as well um we're gonna move on shortly to how how do people escape homelessness and how can we help them in the community but before we do that cruelly with your best guess and obviously the definition of homelessness isn't just people rough sleeping it's a broader definition people what would be your best guess if we think about wider cruelly how many people would be classified as homeless I know exactly that well shelter the brilliant charity shelter to a very in-depth report every December and in December 2025 there were 1550 people homeless in crawley 1550 of whom all but about 30 of them were temporarily accommodated.

SPEAKER_06 34:38

So the vast majority of the 1500ish people homeless in crawley are temporarily accommodated by the council but that isn't as good as it sounds because temporary accommodation I met a guy recently who's been temp in in temporary accommodation for seven years. That's not temporary and it's a real postcode lottery your temporary accommodation so some of it's fine some of it isn't fine and the problem is out of sight out of mind so a lot of people get temporarily accommodated the system says jump done tick in a box and people can then get kind of abandoned and stranded in substandard accommodation. So temporary accommodation ends up being forgotten and it can do I'm I'm not saying it does I'm saying it can do and and and so yeah we have a the third highest incidence of homelessness in the south east of England is Crawley. Number one Slough number two Hastings number three Crawley higher incidence of homelessness than in Brighton Hove where it's about one in ninety people homeless. In Crawley one in 75 people are homeless. I'm asking on behalf of a cheeky Facebook comment that says Clive show me where there's a sleeping bag in the doorway well you know it doesn't need to Crawley Borough Council is a great council and it will do its best to to accommodate people who make a homeless declaration sadly some people don't qualify for that and and they're the people we see and turning tides will see but Crawley Borough Council is is spending an inordinate amount of money on temporary accommodation for people who who are who find themselves homeless.

SPEAKER_04 36:09

That's the statistic yeah and Michelle numbers uh sort of the areas you cover are you aware of the numbers at all?

SPEAKER_02 36:16

I do know that from our most recent internal stats we've helped we've had about 400 new clients present to us across our our operating area so that's going to our hubs that's going to that's being um reached by our outreach teams we've helped over a thousand people in the last year um sort of through support and um you know through various supports and we've um we've supported about 214 people into accommodation so that's moving them into brilliant ver various types of accommodation after our services primarily that is that could be moving them into their own tenancies also people um may need other types of accommodation not just private rented or social housing they could need higher support accommodation through um like social care and such I've personally dealt with a number of cases like that in the past um so or they might be moving on to um sort of um rehabilitation programs that are outside the Turning Tide services but then would have their own move on pathways and such. So there's a lot of different routes out.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

And before we move on to the next part which is how to help people escape homelessness a comment that came up was around people being evicted and I know in your email to me you wrote about legislation and changing where people you know are not going to be evicted so readily and therefore that's going to help potentially can you elaborate on that?

SPEAKER_02 37:45

So we have the Renters Right Act that is um coming into force on the 1st of May that um is ending the um ability for private landlords to use what is called the section 21 eviction process. So this is a no fault eviction you can't appeal it the pathway is only that you will eventually leave your home. So that is being removed and what is being put in what is being used in its place is what is called the section 8 eviction process. Now this has always existed um and it's primarily for um it's primarily used for you hear about it being primarily used for rental arrears but it does actually have several um grounds some of which are mandatory some of which can be appealed and the government have increased those and this is to prevent unfair evictions.

SPEAKER_06 38:39

The unexpected consequence of well intentioned legislation is that thousands of landlords are now selling their their properties so the the the legislation is absolutely well intentioned but if you're a landlord it's another reason not to buy a buy to let and and so at the moment we're seeing a lot of people thrown out of properties which landlords are selling good intention that actually might have worse consequences because it's fully thought through I don't think because landlords are in it to make money and if they can't make money so easily because they're not in control of their own properties they're gonna they're not going to go into it in the first place.

SPEAKER_05 39:19

At the same time squatters I could see something going left with that as well. We've already got that issue here.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

They're just gonna it's funny isn't it it's another one of those topics where the powers that be haven't quite thought about it end to end, joined up thinking and then this came up when we think about housing development and infrastructure that's not joined up thinking either and in an ideal world it's a good thing but it's not an ideal world that's the that's the trouble the government gave quite a lot of notice as to like you know yes it's now got its royal assent and this is when it comes into force and of course I think everybody who works in the homelessness sector looked at that and just went oh we're gonna have a flurry we're gonna have a flurry and you know yeah it it it it does seem to be the case that you know landlords want to get out of the system landlords want to get it's not just the rental it's not just the removal of section 21 though that it has also been added to the legislation you know how um the standards of the accommodation as well and and further obligations and you've also got to bear in mind as well is that now income that landlords receive now has to you know is now subject to sort of income tax as well which um you know I know a lot of um landlords were very unhappy about when that legislated so it's it is quite costly to be a private landlord.

SPEAKER_08 40:36

I just wanted to add there is five hundred people daily receiving eviction letters in the UK and Wales in England and Wales that is a really high amount every day 500 500.

Family Support And Children’s Mental Health

SPEAKER_06 40:50

You know then none of these things are good or bad they're complicated like everything else and if you're a landlord you must have the right to evict a some a tenant who's being antisocial or whatever but on the other hand you know we all want to see a lessening of no fault evictions where someone's done nothing wrong and they just lose their tenancy. So with as with all these things it's a bit complicated isn't it the other thing which is a fact is Mediterranean countries have a far less uh rate of homelessness than northern European countries for example and the reason for that is families stick together. Yes so in in Spain my friends in Spain you know granny lives next door auntie's over the road brother in law's over the road and the kids come home to family and warmth and relationship and lo and behold 20 years later they have better attachments and a better success rate of looking after each other. Probably the same probably the same in Asia I mean my dad's Indian and whenever I go to India quite often big families live in quite small places looking after each other and even with mental health so with dementia there isn't care homes really you've got to look after your own right so I think less homelessness in 20 years start looking after children and young people better and families better and parents better and you know if you can actually provide a bit of a more humane society and all those things you will find that people less people fall through the cracks in 2030 years you know sounds a bit woolly but it's true.

SPEAKER_05 42:23

More words of wisdom Ian thank you very much we've got Ian from the Crawley open house here also Michelle from Ian turning tight sorry sorry I know I interrupt I've been waiting that was absolutely right Ian if I didn't have my my mother and my sisters I would still be on drugs and I'd be on the roads right now that's without a doubt in my mind and I do believe a lot of it has to do with breaking up the family home marriage you know everything it's a long subject but when it actually comes to street homelessness from my own experiences over the over the years and seeing what I think a lot of it has to do with their being let down with their mental health in my opinion anyway.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

I think I think I think poor provision for childhood mental health support is has a lot to have to do with I you know I I speak my own children I'm neurodiverse myself my own children are neurodiverse trying to get a CAMS trying to get through CAMS is impossible. No it's even longer than that. My daughter's like four I think um and that what that is actually turning into is that I have two children who are not necessarily getting all the support that they need and you know that is going to impact them going forward it's it impacts their exam results which then impact what they can do at college which then can impact on what they want to do further down the line. And I think I do think that provision to support children has a lot to answer for As you were saying, Ian at the start around, you know, ch adverse childhood experiences, also this poor provision of of mental health of social care for children and families who are really struggling. And, you know, I think that is somewhere that really if we want to put an end to homelessness, uh let's let's start there. Let's start with the chids.

Part One Takeaways And Listener Callout

SPEAKER_04 44:20

And and there's a slight link there back to the secondary school teacher we spoke to about send needs in the classroom and that provision as well. Um, and there's also a link back to Ichabel when you talk about your mother and your sister. If you go listen to the Mother's Day episode, Ichabel's a little softy, really. Um have a little listen to that. But am I allowed to wrap up this first part now, Ikebel? Okay. So it is lovely having Ian from Crawley Open House here and also Michelle from Turning Tides. That was the first part getting into homelessness. Uh, the next part uh is about how do we escape homelessness and how do we help those in that situation. If you're enjoying what you're hearing, do go and follow us on Spotify and also on Amazon Music and Apple Podcasts as well. Sussex and Surrey Soapbox, all about homelessness.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

Tell us what do you think? Leave a comment below or click on send a text. Thank you for listening to the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox.