Debate or Division? 'Stop the Boats' - 'Support the Vulnerable'

We explore how divided are we as a society? and hear from a number of voices with soundbites from:
- Maz, ex Anti Nazi League Member, supporting the Gaza march 22Feb
- 'G', a local patriot Dad who has had enough of the 'hotel economic scam'
- Hampshire Resistance, at the Horley Protest alongside 'G' on 22Mar
- Tim Charters, Chair of Reform UK, Crawley
- Richard Biggs, Conservative on immigration
- Abigail Chapman-Miller, Labour sharing an example of racism observed

Plus the Rountable conversation with:
- Iqbal Khan, founder of Tess' Kitchen
- James Tidy, Vice Chairman Reform UK, Crawley
- Paul Taylor-burr , Stand Up to Racism, Crawley
- Clive Hilton, Host

A children’s charity fundraising walk in Tilgate park raises thousands for families in Gaza. A 'Stop The Boats' protest in Horley a month later - we tackle the underlying motivations, facts & fears to understand - how divided are we really? and is there any common ground.

Through on-the-ground soundbites from Tilgate 22nd Feb, the protest outside the Four Points hotel in Horley 22nd Mar, through to snippets from our Local Elections episode -- we hear how quickly good intentions can collide with fear, frustration, and deeply held beliefs.

We sit down with voices from all sides - Paul, a FreeShop volunteer and anti-racism advocate, challenges sweeping claims about migrants and crime. James from Reform UK in Crawley pushes back against being labelled “far right” and responds directly to accusations around NHS privatisation. Between them, a bigger question emerges: when did disagreement turn into distrust?

We also dig into the data—reading from a Sussex Police Freedom of Information response on crimes linked to hotel sites—and ask what the numbers actually show, and where assumptions take over. Iqbal shares lived experiences and from there, the conversation turns to the realities of immigration and asylum policy: the difference between the two, the pressure on local services, and why faster, fairer Asylum processing could be part of the answer.

But this isn’t just about policy. It’s about perception. From St George’s flags to slogans like “Stop the Boats,” we unpack how symbols meant as pride by some are experienced as provocation by others—and how that gap keeps widen with a few jumping on the bandwagon.

If you care about reducing friction and division in our community, are curious to hear perspectives and the future of local debate, this episode doesn’t offer easy answers—but it does ask the questions many people avoid.

Subscribe for more grounded local conversations. Share this with someone who sees things differently. And tell us: what’s one point both sides could actually agree on?

Please click on 'Send a text' above & join our Facebook group to share your perspective and suggestions for future topics - Thank you for your interest! Clive.

Transcript

Why Division Feels So Sharp

SPEAKER_07 0:00

Welcome to the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox. Real viewpoints, real opinions, and a balanced conversation on the community issues that matter.

SPEAKER_08 0:10

So welcome along to the Sussex and Surrey soapbox. This week, a little bit of a special and a bit of a different episode. We're going to be exploring division in the community from lots of different angles. And before we get into it, let's meet people around the round table.

SPEAKER_06 0:27

Hiya, I'm Ick Balcon, Texas Kitchen, regular guest here at the Round Table.

SPEAKER_17 0:32

My name is James Tidey. I'm also a regular guest here, and I'm the vice chairman of Reform UK in Crawley.

SPEAKER_08 0:38

And we've got special guests with us as well. Paul, introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Yeah, hello there. My name's Paul. I volunteer and work for FreeShop in Crawley. I also volunteer for Crawley LGBT. I'm on the Pride Committee and Steering Committee. I'm also chairman of the CCIR and founder of the Crawley Stand Up to Racism in Crawley.

SPEAKER_08 0:58

Thank you, Paul, for joining. You may regret your decision to join in with this conversation, but I think it's going to be fascinating. And it came about from, if we cast our mind back to February, I think we've all seen in socials various Patriot marches, but also there was a Ramadan march in Tilgate to raise money for Gaza and families there.

SPEAKER_06 1:19

So uh the community in Crawley, they organized a little march for kids, for kids to march through Tilgate and uh raise money for the people in Gaza. Now at the same time, someone uh local-ish uh saw that they were doing a the children were doing a march at Tilgate Park, and for some reason that day they'd gone out, made a poster, and they decided to organise a march from three Bridges train station to Tilgate Park where the kids would be finishing about the same time. I think they were like an hour apart.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

We were concerned that this march was clearly not a coincidence, it was organized to counter what the young children were doing. I mean, they were raising they raised over 12,000 pounds.

Tilgate March And Counter Tensions

SPEAKER_08 2:11

And they did well, they they did well, but the feeling was I I think the feeling was that it's not a coincidence, it's uh to to be a little bit tense, and and I think we noticed that. The reason this episode's a little bit different is that we're not just all talking around the round table, we've got various snippets from the march in Tilgate that we're talking about, but also the Hawley protest at the Four Points Hotel. We're also gonna hear from various councillors on immigration and asylum, uh so various sound bites, and I thought it would be interesting to play these sound bites and then we can draw some parallels and hopefully find some common ground because I do think there's some parts that everyone's saying the same, but just in different ways. Uh, and this is how we're gonna try and find some common ground and break down some of this division in society. So, the first up we're gonna hear from Maz. So, Maz is one of these people, uh Paul, you were talking about uh at the Tilgate March. So here goes.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

So I'm here to support the um the community who are doing a 5K walk, uh, women and children for Palestine. We heard that the far right were gonna turn up and try and disrupt their their walk, and obviously, because there's women and children involved, I thought I'd come for moral support for them. I was in the anti-Nazi League in the 1980s um when the NF were really big and on the streets, and so I was involved in the anti-Nazi League at school, and after I left school, uh I lived in Darlington, which is a very multicultural town, lots of black and Asian people, people live you know happily side by side, but the NF were very divisive, they they were quite violent, they attacked people, they beat people up. So I was involved in some of those big marches and demonstrations, and um with the rise of the far right today with the different groups, um I decided to get back involved.

SPEAKER_08 3:55

And of course, when we talk about the NF, we're talking about the um National Front and the feeling that far right is being much more, you know, under the banner of patriotic marches.

SPEAKER_06 4:06

I'm not gonna lie to you, that scared me a little bit because when my father came here at a young age, him and his mates, they're from Sussex, Worthing, Brighton, this is their area. And they had to they had to put in work, they had to fight, physically fight every single day. So we were able to live the way we do today.

SPEAKER_08 4:28

And this came up in in a previous episode where we talked about immigration. I think you you spoke, Iqbel Khan, on that about you know, people didn't feel safe in their community. Um so people should listen back to that episode as well. With James Tiley, lucky to have James here as well on the reform side. Do you think sometimes reform gets associated to far right and some of this?

SPEAKER_17 4:50

Yeah, absolutely. Um people will try and label us whatever they can because it's it's it's an easy dog whistle to um convince people that they should dislike us rather than attacking our policies. They say if you dislike us, it's um it's it's a moral thing to do. You're a better person. Um this isn't this isn't new. I mean, the Conservative Party were called fascists in the 90s constantly under John Major, uh bizarrely enough. Um it's it's nothing new, it's it's m it's just a cheap tactic to try and get people to be anti-reform without actually understanding or going into the detail.

SPEAKER_08 5:24

And it's gonna be interesting as we hear these snippets, they they warm up. So we're gonna get some more pointed snippets. It's gonna be good to get uh James your perspective, whether you condone some of what's said or not, and and and and see where we are. Paul, any thoughts from you before we get on to the next?

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Well, being an anti-racist all my life, I was um also fighting against the National Front in the 80s in Dillingham in the Medway towns when they were marching through the high street with their boots and their skinheads with their Nazi salutes. And it seems like we've we've gone backwards in time. It's literally like less than five years ago, none of this would have happened, literally it wouldn't have happened. Then in the last since 2016, it's just gone it's it's just gone bit of the start, and everything that's to be blamed for the wrong country is blamed on immigration.

SPEAKER_17 6:16

So when you when you say since 2016 you you you say that's Brexit.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Yeah. So when we lost the when we lost the free movement, every migrant that comes into this country before 2016 wouldn't ship back. But because of Brexit, that is not possible now because we lost that ability to send people back.

SPEAKER_17 6:39

But the but so you're saying Britain's the only country, we're the only country that's left the EU, are we the only country that's seen an increase in illegal immigration?

SPEAKER_03 6:48

We can't send them back, and that's the problem, isn't it? That's what your that's what your arguments are.

SPEAKER_17 6:52

Britain Britain's the only country that's left the EU.

SPEAKER_08 6:55

Um so so I think all countries in the EU have seen the increase, probably. I think, Paul, your point is that we haven't got the right to return them now because we're not part of that EU pact. Um and my own personal opinion, I try to keep my personal opinion, but my own personal opinion is with Brexit, where we said let's take back control of our borders, I think that's also where the narrative started towards immigration. The truth is other EU countries maintain control of their borders, even being part of the EU. But I think my personal perspective is that we saw it as a cost-cutting exercise to be able to not do that.

SPEAKER_17 7:31

What what countries I don't know what countries maintained their borders. I mean, Poland did it, and they were fined and punished by the EU for doing this.

SPEAKER_08 7:38

Well, when I lived in the Netherlands, right, they would check who's coming in out. They wouldn't have just open borders.

SPEAKER_17 7:43

I I think within you within Europe, you have open borders.

Horley Hotel Protest Explained

SPEAKER_08 7:46

Let's hear from someone I met at the Hawley Hotel. So this happened a month later. So, of course, the people we just heard about from Tilgate, it was 22nd of February. A month later, on Sunday, the 22nd of March, Hawley protests. This was the one that was called Stop the Boats. It was at the Four Point Hotel in Hawley. I went along there with my fluorescent jacket and got talking to G. It's not his real name, but he prefers to be known as G. So here's G.

SPEAKER_16 8:12

If they want to do that, good on them. I'm happy for them. I'm pleased for them. I hope they've raised the money. If they believe that their cause is just and genuine, then I'm really pleased for them. I mean, who doesn't want to help a child? Who doesn't want to help a family? But like I say, I just care about my community at the moment. And I mean, in 20 years' time, I hope that we're all living together and we're all harmless. But I just want someone from the left that tell me I'm wrong to tell me when enough's enough. We are a small island with really de-raining sources. Just please tell me when you're gonna turn around and say, enough's enough. Because I just don't know. I can't wait 20 years for them to then turn around and go, Oh, yeah, you maybe have been right. I'm not gonna let them gamble. So I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. They can do what they want to do. I just hope it stays peaceful. I hope everyone tries to get on with each other. But like I say, I'm not willing to gamble in 20 years' time to say that they were right.

SPEAKER_08 9:04

So that's G, and I asked him there, what does he think about the march that took place in Tilgate? And that's his opinion. And of course, it's on all of our minds. So you're standing in front of Hawley Hotel, Sunday lunchtime with your flags and banners.

SPEAKER_16 9:18

What are you here to achieve? For me personally, this is for trying to highlight the amount of money these hotels are costing. Because these hotels are costing an absolute fortune. And I truly believe that if we could stop the hotels, we would stop the boats. Because the hotels have become an easy option for the government. They just put them in the hotels, the taxpayer pays the bill, it deals with the problem. If the hotels drained up and they had no spaces for them, they'd have to actually deal with the problem. But the it's the easy option. Just chuck them in the hotels, we give them three square meals a day, and it absolutely costs the taxpayer a fortune. That is the only really my main reason to get involved in this was I went to the hospital over Christmas, I saw a lot of child care neglect, and I saw a lot of corridor care, and I've seen a lot of underfunding in local schooling. I just thought enough's enough. I live around the corner from two migrant hotels, and I'm just sick of hotel owners making an absolute profit off the back of this. And I truly believe that if we could close the hotels, that would force the government into doing more because I truly believe the government are negligence.

SPEAKER_17 10:18

Yeah, I I think we'd all agree that the hotels aren't a a suitable option. Um I I don't necessarily agree with the attending a different event to try and raise that point. I think it's misguided, but it seems like certainly the man that cares about his community wants what's best for it, understands the issues that are facing Crawley and Sorry in Sussex wider, and just wants to do something about it.

SPEAKER_08 10:41

Yeah, I I was quite surprised because uh, you know, when you see people flying flags, banners, and hence I wore my fluorescent jacket, I I felt not knowing what am I gonna come across. And and this was a chap, G making good points about economic government choosing to make. But I was thinking, why in front of a hotel? We're gonna speak to him a little bit more in a moment, when it's really a home office and a governmental decision, which I think lots of people agree with, even around this table, that it's probably uh I thought I thought this was a chap who's at the Patriot. Yeah, this is this this is a Patriot.

SPEAKER_17 11:14

Oh, I thought I thought this was the Patriot one um that was countering the the Gaza.

SPEAKER_08 11:19

Yeah, it is. But I thought he was So he's quite a reasonable at the moment they make reasonable points, right? This is the Hawley protest making the the Patriot statement. Why is he standing in front of Hawley? Right. Okay. We heard his views on the Tealgate process, and now this is his purpose of what he's trying to achieve in front of the hotel. It's about the scam and the economy and hotel owners making a lot of money from this, and he him disagreeing with um with that decision.

SPEAKER_06 11:44

I'll be honest with you, I agree with what he's saying about the hospitals. Yeah, I've same thing. We took my son to the hospital a few weeks ago, and to see elderly in the hallway of Red Hill Hospital, East Surrey Hospital, is a disgusting scene. Uh you not in England, but I don't believe the two things are related. I believe one the NHS and everything else is in its own lane and immigration and everything else is going on.

SPEAKER_08 12:12

At the same time, the the the crossover is we could spend the money from the hotels on making healthcare better. Will they?

SPEAKER_06 12:20

Well, that's uh, but at the same time, I'm not agreeing with the hotel. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying. I understand his point. Yeah. But at the same time, if you're upset with how they're treating our our patients in the NHS, and if you have other issues about how the government is spending your money, then go to number 10 and go protest there, shut it down.

SPEAKER_08 12:42

Well, also the timing, the timing of putting this out is we got the 7th of May and local elections coming up where people can can make some choices.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

The whole hotel debacle was obviously instigated by the Conservative Party, um, with Robert Jenric being in charge of the biggest expansion of hotel usage whilst he was there, as well as giving it to one of his best mates and signing contracts. All this is known without any doubt of being fact.

SPEAKER_17 13:08

I totally I totally object to that. And then he he he started the use temporarily, which is what he was told. And when it was this turned out not to be the case, he he resigned as minister. Um I I would like to know what made it back handed to his best mate.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

What mate was this? Uh the owner of the Britannia Hotels, I believe it was.

SPEAKER_17 13:26

And and their friends, and this was this is a way to just and that is that is in in public domain.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

And um he he was in charge of the biggest expansion of hotels.

SPEAKER_17 13:36

And resigned because they weren't temporary.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Well, he resigned several months afterwards. He didn't resign there and then. He waited and waited and waited until it suited him.

SPEAKER_17 13:43

Yeah, absolutely. He tried and tried and tried. You know, you're absolutely right. Um But I'm glad I'm glad to hear that you were in favour of closing them down. Um, but when we have these people, when we have these people come to the country, what would you like to do with them?

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Well, for starters, we need we need more people in the processing department so that people can get processed faster and quicker.

Crime Claims And Culture Arguments

SPEAKER_08 14:04

Okay, and then let let's hold on to that thought. We're gonna quickly march through these snippets because uh we've got a counsellor in the moment popping up on these sound bites, uh, pretty much saying a similar thing to you, Paul. So, as I say, there's a lot of common ground, even though from different perspectives, but there's a lot of division in society over this, right? Let's move on. These next group of people were at the same hotel, the same time, alongside G, and they're called Hampshire Resistance, who have come all the way up from Portsmouth to support the cause. So have a little listen to this.

SPEAKER_15 14:37

Well, we've come here today to support um the uh Patriot Group from Hawley, and we're from Gospel, Fareham, uh Emsworth, Portsmouth. Oh wow, you've come quite a way. Yeah, we've come, there's a few of us come up today, and the name of our group's Hampshire Resistance. We started the group um in January basically to help other patriot groups that are suffering in the winter. And in the winter times, you've got a lot of football lads that go to football and so and sports, all the sports events, so you get less um patriot groups, and it's about making the noise and and really speaking out loud, freedom of speech.

SPEAKER_09 15:12

Why are they being treated so special when they've come into this country illegally? And also the crimes that they're committing against our young girls. You know, this this is not on. When uh the the country's priority should be the British citizens. And I think what the sad thing is now that we've got a generation of children coming up that don't have the respect for the country how we were. I mean, I'm 56. I never thought at 56 I'd end up being an activist. I've got grandchildren, and it worries me about what the future we're gonna lead to.

SPEAKER_08 15:41

So um we're gonna hear more from them in the moment as well. Any any thoughts on that so far?

SPEAKER_03 15:46

Well, I think we'll leave the um crimes against women and children until later, because the statistics on that speak for themselves.

SPEAKER_17 15:53

They absolutely do. We've done FOIs in Crawley internally, and that the statistics are shocking. Um and yeah, it's what what are the statistics? I don't have the statistics uh for the people who live in the hotels. This is obviously only people that be.

SPEAKER_08 16:09

But broadly, broadly without numbers specific. I mean, is it concerning?

SPEAKER_17 16:13

Yeah, it's definitely per capita higher.

SPEAKER_06 16:15

Um I I can I'm just so it uh wrong I don't know, but I mean you've got your phone right there. And that is wrong to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_17 16:22

Obviously, no, the statistics haven't been published. We didn't f freedom of information request, so I I don't have them on me, but they are per capita higher. You what you've got to understand is if a if somebody comes from a country where they respect women less, they're not gonna stand on English soil and have some magic powers put through them. They will take the values. If I move to China, I'm going to have English values, I won't immediately have Chinese values. Do you think the people who come from Afghanistan will have English values towards women?

SPEAKER_06 16:51

Sorry, can I counter that quickly? When when when uh uh like when there's uh pedophile tourists who go to Vietnam, Cambodia, Philippines, India, Pakistan to all these poor places and violate children, what's what is that? So you're what are you talking about? I've never heard of that. But will you educate yourself? If this has happened, listen to the pedophile tourism from the United Kingdom is rife. You need to so is that British values? What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_08 17:27

So what's it?

SPEAKER_06 17:28

What you're saying is those Afghans don't know British values, so they come here rape women. The same so the the British people will go, no, a rapist is a rapist, a wrongin' is a wrong-in. They come in every shape and form, every colour, every race, every religion. You cannot say that just because they don't have British values, mate. Well, look into pedophile tourism and tell me about British values then.

SPEAKER_17 17:53

In relation to English values, does every country treat women equally? Do you think that there are countries that perhaps have have fewer rights, fewer liberties for the women in their society? And if so, what happens when they move over here?

SPEAKER_05 18:07

But that comes down to the culture.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

That's 93% of all domestic violence is committed by white British people. So when you have statistics on right-wing think text that say 30% of Afghans are related to sexual abuse, that isn't even a per capita. Um what they've done there is taken 2400.

SPEAKER_05 18:41

Do you think that's what you say?

SPEAKER_06 18:46

I'm still trying to think about it. Hang on, hang on. That's what one at a time. Let me just finish. Because what I would like you to do, because you've made a statement saying women from whatever, uh can you just be more specific and name a certain country so then we can then elaborate on that? Because it's you're being quite broad. What do you mean because you said when women uh like uh from countries that don't treat women with certain respect. So let's be more specific and we can get to that uh specifically. Because then it's not just countries, yeah, countries.

SPEAKER_17 19:12

For example, what countries? I do I know I I did answer. I I said like Afghanistan.

SPEAKER_06 19:16

Okay, so what do you believe that they do that's wrong? I don't know, I'm not Afghani.

SPEAKER_17 19:19

Well, do do you honestly think that women in Afghanistan are treated the same as what? As they are in England.

SPEAKER_06 19:27

No, of course not. I don't believe that one second. I don't believe that the women in Afghanistan are allowed to walk around half naked and have sixteen boyfriends and fifteen baby daddies. No, I don't think they do that in Afghanistan. But that's a different culture. There's British culture, then there's Afghanistan culture. You can't relate the two. Their definition of respect. No, no, one second. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about facts, mate. What I'm saying's boarding. No, no, okay, I exaggerate. I was exaggerating. Hold on, but hold on a second. But did I say something wrong?

SPEAKER_05 20:02

Let's let Yes. What did I say wrong? Let's let James let's let James on.

SPEAKER_08 20:06

What did I say wrong?

SPEAKER_05 20:07

Go on, James.

SPEAKER_17 20:08

Uh the idea that the English have sixteen English ladies have English. Okay, let's let James make the point. The the idea that the English have sixty English ladies have sixteen boyfriends and go around half naked. My point is, well, perhaps you believe that, but I don't. Um go to Brighton on a summer evening. I I've lived in Brighton. Um I I think if you take a culture that has less respect for women, bring them in in such numbers that they're only surrounded by people who are from that culture, you aren't going to have them assimilate. If you bring people in from a different culture and they can assimilate, like has been done successfully for many years, it's a much better, more cohesive way to live in a country and to thrive as a community.

SPEAKER_08 20:51

Are we talking about the French?

SPEAKER_17 20:53

Uh any country, yeah, including the French, absolutely. Um, if you brought a load of French people in, put them in hotels, people would be very upset about that. If you bring a load of people from Australia, put them in Four Stars Hotel.

SPEAKER_08 21:06

And and this is about if you're in Britain, you know, abide by British culture, British values, this is what we're talking about. Now, just for my simple mind, if we had an asylum hotel with a hundred people and we took a hundred people, you know, just a cross section of society off the street, are we saying that people in hotels are more likely to commit per capita than the general public? Yes. Okay, and and have we got evidence that that that supports that?

SPEAKER_17 21:34

Um yeah, well, we're obviously waiting on the uh details from Tim on the FOI request.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Just dropping you a message to talk about the freedom of information request that was sent into Sussex Police. The FOI number is five four two two slash two five. I will quote what it says on the letter responding. This is recorded crime relating to specific hotel locations as requested in this FOI. Report period by input calendar years, 1st of January 2024 to 30th of November 2025. This information has been searched by using the location address and postcode, both of which are non-mandatory fields. Therefore, the figure shown below may not be a true representation of this type of crime as it is dependent on the completion of a non-mandatory information having been recorded. That means that the numbers below are specific to the hotel and the postcode, but it is specifically the hotel as well, and they are understated because the data will not be complete. First, the Aurora Hotel, RH106LW. Total number of crimes, 14. It's a very low number, of which eight is violence against the person. Now the Copthorne Hotel has a total for the period that I mentioned before of 79 crimes committed, 76 of which were in 2025. For the third hotel, the Holiday In Express, the total number of crimes committed was 88, of which 60 were in 2025. Of that 60, 36 are violence against the person, two are sexual offences, and 10 are public order offences. These are numbers from Sussex Police. They are understated and they are specific to the hotels as specified in the Freedom of Information Request response issued by Sussex Police using FOI number 5422 slash two five. Thank you very much. I hope this clears up everything and um our numbers are correct. Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 23:51

Well, we're gonna get back to another soundbite in a moment uh about immigration broadly. But before we do that, Paul, have you got any comments about this and the representation of crime asylum seekers in hotels versus general population?

SPEAKER_03 24:05

I think the last lot of statistics came out in June 2025 and it it showed that people that were causing crime, say for attacks on women in houses and what have you, is actually like 90 odd percent white British male, and they're known to their own.

SPEAKER_17 24:21

But that's attacks on women's in houses. If you live in a hotel, how are you attacking a woman in a house?

SPEAKER_03 24:27

You don't. So so there's only been there's only been like four, I believe, in the local area out of the entire population.

SPEAKER_17 24:36

So so but the point is you're saying in houses, you don't think that women feel unsafe when they're getting cat calls and things like that?

SPEAKER_03 24:43

Domestic assa assaults on any female in the whole of this area are more likely to be done by somebody that they know.

SPEAKER_17 24:50

Oh, yeah. And that's a fact. Yeah, that of course that's a yeah, I'm not I'm not not not disputing that.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

So, right, so you're saying that people that live in hotels are more likely to cause crime, but their statistics do not bear that out.

SPEAKER_17 25:02

They they absolutely do.

SPEAKER_06 25:03

Okay, uh no, they don't. That's uh I don't think that has anything to do with Afghanistan or the hotels or culture. That's just the way it is. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's a reality.

SPEAKER_08 25:16

Uh the next soundbite. Uh we're back with G, and G is now talking to us back to the hotel in Hawley where we interviewed, and G there uh has these points to make on immigration.

SPEAKER_16 25:27

I've got no problem with immigration. Come here legally, work, pay your taxes. Genuinely, I've spent a lot of time with the NHS through personal reasons of my own and my family, and I've seen the good it does. I don't want to s I genuinely, genuinely don't want to send anyone home. I'm not a racist. I truly am. I don't want to send anyone home. I actually want everyone to live together.

SPEAKER_08 25:43

So once the hotels are sorted, because they are being closed and they there are other ways of dealing with the asylum seekers, once the hotels are not used for that, will you be happy?

SPEAKER_16 25:52

No, because what the problem there is, is they're going to put in HMOs and then I'm going to pay for the HMOs. All I'm saying is, if we call out the money side of it, you might get the people that are sitting on the fence that think there's nothing wrong with it to realise that it's one big scam. Because the latest stats are that hotel issue's going down, but immigration, illegal immigration is coming up. So where are they all going?

SPEAKER_08 26:13

It stands by his point, the the economic scam that is costing the taxpayer a lot of money. Fair point. Any comments on that? Because we're going to quickly move on to Richard Biggs from Conservative with his view on immigration and his perspective of how it could be done more effectively.

SPEAKER_06 26:31

Just a quick one about his NHS. Um I I'm quite worried about that as well myself, because from my understanding, whether I'm right or wrong, Reform UK want to privatise the NHS.

SPEAKER_17 26:41

You're completely wrong.

SPEAKER_06 26:42

That's no, no, that's what I'm asking. I don't know. Because from hearing that, that's a And this is another soundbite.

SPEAKER_08 26:47

Someone picks up on that. But let's let's get to that answer now. James. You know.

SPEAKER_17 26:52

I mean, this is something spared by the Labour government. Now, if you want to believe the Labour government, go and do that. If you don't think the Labour government have lied to you, don't, you know, that's up to you. But the Reform UK will never privatise the NHS. Ever. It's not happening. It's it's it's all a complete lie to scaremonger people in society because they know they're going to lose the next election.

SPEAKER_08 27:16

Did Nigel say that as well when he was in Crawley the other day, or would he say that?

SPEAKER_17 27:20

He would absolutely say that. I I don't know whether I don't know whether anybody asked him, but he would absolutely reiterate what I said.

SPEAKER_08 27:26

Are you going to vote reform now, Nick Bell? Is that is that breaking news that Eggbel can't?

SPEAKER_06 27:31

That's one of my biggest reasons for not voting. What's the next biggest reason? Swell of Bravo. Um I I lived 10 years in America, and obviously there's insurance there. We don't have DNHS and people die every day just because they can't afford it.

SPEAKER_08 27:45

I think you're warming up. See, we're finding some common ground that we didn't expect in this episode that Eggbell's getting warmer next time.

SPEAKER_06 27:52

He comes in and saying salamalink.

NHS Privatisation Row And Party Lines

SPEAKER_08 27:54

Right. In Charlotte. Right. Let's uh let's move on. Richard Biggs, Conservative, and his view on immigration.

SPEAKER_10 28:01

Yeah, a couple of things on immigration. I think we've got immigration and we've got asylum seekers. Two separate things. We need immigration. A country thrives on immigration. We have a lot of services that we need people to come in and actually work within particular industries, and that's really important. I think one of the issues is allowing a number of dependents to come with the people that are coming for a job. So often when we got up to sort of 900,000, 700,000 were dependents not coming to work, not coming to pay tax, part of their family, and I understand that, but really and truly that puts a huge strain on our services, and maybe we need to look at that slightly different with dependents coming with them. And then with asylum seekers coming over whether it's both, we need those safe and legal routes, and we need to process really quickly. And the key is being able to process, preferably outside of our borders, so that that can be dealt with, and people aren't taking that very risky journey across.

SPEAKER_08 29:13

So that's Richard Biggs. He was on an episode recently, and we're taking that soundbot out because it very much is part of this topic. Paul, uh, any thoughts on that? Because that's concurring with what you're you were saying earlier.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Yeah, but um there are no safe and legal routes for people that can't afford to life from wherever to wherever. If they're escaping from whatever clever of perils they face, they will take whatever route they can to get into a country.

SPEAKER_08 29:45

Some people would say, but when they're in Calais, when they're in France, what perils do they have there and why why get on the boat?

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Um because the last government shut down the processing centre that was meant to be in Calais, they shut it down. So normally what would have happened would have been you'd go to Calais, you would have your papers checked, you'd have your um procession processing done from there, and then you would come across. But why wouldn't they just stay in France? Because one, they could have relatives over here. Two, they want to make a better life, and believe it or not, being one of the biggest G7 countries, we can offer a lot more to them than France can or Germany. Well, Germany's actually quite good, they could they take on they take millions of so you'd admit they're economic migrants? Some of them will be.

SPEAKER_17 30:37

Yeah, not asylum seekers as they're claiming. Um so people coming over on boats, just clarify, are economic migrants? No. So why are they coming over here for a better life? If it's you're you're saying they're coming over here because we're richer than France. Surely that's an economic migrant, or is it because we're so much richer than France, you can become an asylum seeker from France?

SPEAKER_03 31:00

No, it's because we can offer them a better, more stable life.

SPEAKER_08 31:04

Well, it it's also the other the other thing that quite a lot of people are feeling strongly about is the benefits and and and what they get when they arrive in Shaws. And I think, you know, in all of the discussions we've had in the previous episodes, the the word immigration, the word asylum seeker are sometimes used interchangeably, and and and this causes uh problems as well. Ickbel's very quiet for a change.

SPEAKER_06 31:27

Um I've actually worked in Calais with um Care for Calais, working in the the migrant camps, I've worked uh Sangat, I've like all them areas. And I I I I see, but this is before Brexit. Um and James is very correct. A lot of them are uh economic migrants, but a lot of them are also economic migrants from war-torn countries that have been war-torn by the agenda of the West. So we also have to put that into place. There was a lot of Kurdish, there was a lot of uh from Iraq, a lot of um Afghan, there was a lot of people from Africa, from all over, but there were also Pakistani economic migrants that I I mean I met one guy there that was in the in the jungle for about seven years trying to get in. Uh, but this was before the boats. At that time, everyone was coming in the back of uh the lorries.

SPEAKER_08 32:25

And and and British culture, correct me if I'm wrong, British culture. We like to be a kind nation. Those that are truly fleeing war-torn places where their their lives are at risk. I think everyone around this table would agree that we'd want to help and do what's needed, right?

SPEAKER_06 32:42

Um I mean I I I understand that we can't help everyone, and there are gonna be people that are trying to beat the system, trying to come in. That's with everything and anything. Uh but we I personally believe that we are partly to blame for a lot of the turmoil going over on in in the because of our foreign policy and how we're not 100%, yeah and we obviously back everything America does, everything Israel does, which caused it starting to change, starting to change recently with Iran. Stays that way, but yeah, because of all that this is happening, and we're gonna get more. You like when you're if you're just dropping bombs everywhere, what do you think where do you think the people of this area are gonna go?

SPEAKER_08 33:26

They're gonna come here where there's no bombs being well, so partly that, partly the benefits, partly the the attraction of of hotels.

SPEAKER_06 33:33

I think I think someone from Afghanistan or or Syria or wherever else, if he's not having bombs dropped on him, he's not thinking about benefits in the UK. He's not gonna travel all the miles going through so many different routes, going on the back of lorries and jumping on a boat to get here to get what's the bad thousand pounds a month?

SPEAKER_08 33:54

Yeah, but in that case, in that case, if you're if you're fleeing for your life, surely you just go to the next nearest safe haven that you are.

SPEAKER_06 34:01

Language barrier? One second, James, one second. You have to also understand, you know, a lot of the countries that are around those countries, do you know how many uh refugees they've already taken? Well, you know how many Pakistani uh in Pakistan how many Afghanas there were? Do you know how many were in Iran? You know, like that. So these places are taking the refugees in, but there's only so many they could take themselves. Okay. You know, and to come over here, obviously, if I if someone going if you're from Pakistan or India or Afghanistan, you're more likely to know English than you are or you are to know German, thanks to Hollywood, you know?

SPEAKER_17 34:37

Um I I I think if my house was on fire, I'd run to my next door neighbour's house. I wouldn't run to the biggest house on the street. Um but no, I I I do get you have to have some refugee charters. You can have immigrants, but the point is we have a huge number of people leaving this country. We can still accept immigrants, we can still accept genuine asylum seekers. Um I agree with I agree with Paul's point about we that we should have um somewhere to process people legitimately in France. Uh but you can still have these people come to this country and keep net zero immigration. Um it's not about having uh nobody from any other country come into this country at all. It's simply uh it's simply numbers matter. I mean we we can't provide for them all. Um and so we can have we have people leaving this country, sadly, far, far too many. Um so we can we can have people that come in and without putting strains on our resources.

SPEAKER_06 35:32

But at the same time, you're saying if my house was on fire, which is not the same analogy, but say if my country was in ruins, I would go to the the next country closer than me. But if I'm gonna starve in the country next to me, what's the point of me staying there?

SPEAKER_17 35:46

Well okay, I'll I'll change analogy. If my house's on fire, I'd go to the nearest safe house, I wouldn't go to the nearest big house.

SPEAKER_06 35:53

Okay, but obviously you want to go to the nearest safe house where you're welcome and you can speak the language. If I'm gonna sit in a room and nobody understands a word I'm saying and I don't understand what anyone's saying, how am I gonna and you can end up hopping hopping across country?

SPEAKER_08 36:07

You can't.

SPEAKER_06 36:08

So I've got very much sorry, I've I I know per people personally who've travelled here on foot from Afghanistan, they've gone into certain areas, then they've gone to Italy to spike all the way across. They've had to come here on the back of a lorry. And the re I know why he's coming, because he's got family up north. He speaks the language. Now he can't stop off and learn that's an economic asylum seeker, isn't it?

SPEAKER_08 36:34

Yeah, yeah, but the intention, the intention of asylum seekers is to flee to save your life. Of course. And that's the crossover between asylum and then and also also I think it's fair to say a big part of the illegal immigration is people here that are out staying visas, yeah, um, and and not having the right to remain.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

I would just say one thing. Have anyone has anyone here actually had to be evacuated from a worn-torn battlefield?

SPEAKER_08 37:02

No, there's no hands up.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

When my dad was stationed out in Saudi Arabia in the 1970s, and we were evacuated from Saudi Arabia and had to be taken to a farm somewhere in Dorset. I, from personal experience, know what it's like to be shot at, and I know what it's like to be bombed, and I know what it's like to be sent somewhere that you don't know to protect your life. You have to remember that these people are escaping from those kind of circumstances. And when you say, Why do they always send the men out first? It's because the men go first so that they can get a job, they can get their foot in, they can get roots set down, then they can bring over the wife and children when they know they're safe. And they've got they've got money coming in. When you come to this country, you're not allowed to claim benefits.

SPEAKER_17 37:53

I'm I'm very sorry. I'm I'm very sorry to hear that you've gone through that. I'm very sorry to hear you've gone through that. However, if you're fleeing for your life, you would go to the nearest safe country.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

Do you think that living the nearest safe country?

SPEAKER_17 38:13

The nearest safe country. But which countries are they fleeing from that's the nearest safe house?

SPEAKER_03 38:18

For them, this country is their safe house. And that's what you said less than five minutes ago. You go to your nearest safe to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_17 38:25

Absolutely I agree. But we you're saying we are the nearest safe country to these countries in Asia.

SPEAKER_05 38:32

Don't forget.

SPEAKER_17 38:33

So to them, France, so you're saying we should accept illegal immigrants because they don't think as an illegal immigration. Yes, there is yes, there is. No, there is not.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

You're a policy, by law, other than UNSI, hang on, hang on, hang on.

SPEAKER_08 38:47

So Paul and you're talking about asylum seekers. Yeah. So let's be really clear language. You're talking about asylum seekers rather than illegal immigration. Yeah. I worry slightly, Paul. So I agree with a lot of you said what what you said there, Paul. But if if I was being shot at I I I I would take my family with me. I wouldn't you see that that's where it crosses over from asylum seeking to uh the man goes first to get a job and then bring the rest of the family. So you don't get that time, that luxury, do you? I mean, if you're being shot at, you would take your everyone, kids, family, with you together to flee and get to safe haven, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_03 39:28

That would be the plan, but that doesn't always work like that.

SPEAKER_08 39:31

Well, I certainly wouldn't leave family and kids behind. Well, I'm all right, I'll get a job and I'll bring you over, just dodge the bullets for the time being, isn't it? Do you agree?

SPEAKER_03 39:39

I mean a joke, but but in somebody's countries, the wife and children, they're not the ones that are going to be conscripted into joining and fighting for a country they don't want to be part of, or fighting against a country they don't want to be.

Ukraine Refugees And Racial Double Standards

SPEAKER_08 39:51

So so let's let let's just change gear because this is interesting. If we think about Ukraine, no, wait a minute, we'll come back to that. If we think about Ukraine, um Abigail Chapman Miller from Labour made a good point. Uh and observing how we treated those from Ukraine versus those with coloured skin.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

I do think we need to really open up safe legal routes to asylum seekers, which hasn't existed in the way that we'd like to see. Um, but I would also argue that there is an issue with skin colour, and I'm going to speak from my own personal experience. So I was one of the community leaders that led on the integration of Ukrainian refugees during the Homes to Ukraine scheme. Tandridge was one of the highest areas in the country taking Ukrainian refugees, and I saw a whole community come together to ensure that these individuals were safely homed in in other people's houses, had spaces in schools, could access jobs, and actually had a lot of the restrictions around working taken away from them straight away, so they could go straight into employment, mental health support, down to sort of churches putting their um their papers into Ukrainian. And I also work with an organization in Red Hill who sees um housing underage, so under at the age of 18, refugees who have come here through routes that we wouldn't like them to. And some of these individuals are even refused to be seen by private dentists, will not see them, refuse to see them, the racism that they experience on the streets, in healthcare, and for me that is purely a racial issue because if you've got somebody coming from a war-torn country who's Muslim and somebody who's coming from a war-torn uh country who's Christian and white, and one's being treated preferentially, then there's a race issue, even if you don't realise it.

SPEAKER_08 41:50

What do we think about that, Paul? Let's start with you this time.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

Well, I I did quite a lot of stuff with the Ukraine um when Russia illegally invaded in 2022. I organized um clothing drives and medicine drives um with the local Polish school, that's out of St. Wilfred's. Um and the difference is quite stark. Um no one can say that we didn't do the right thing by housing the Ukrainians and their families because of what Russians and the Putin did. Afghan agencies is probably right. If you've got someone traveling from I mean, look at the Afghanistans. We promised Afghan people, their husbands and their wives, that we would look after them once we retreated and left Afghan. We dropped them, we left them where they were, we just abandoned them. And we promised that they could come over and we would look after them and keep them safe. We did this not we did not do that. And now we've got people coming over from Afghan that helped our soldiers, that kept them alive, that actually put their own lives on the line. And some of these people even got like there's I think there's a couple in Crawley where they've lost limbs because they were defending British soldiers. So we still owe their people a debt.

SPEAKER_17 43:15

They're in Crawley because they were brought over to keep them safe. Um there was there was uh um a release of files that shouldn't have been released, which is why they had some of them came over, but the numbers don't add up. Um there's been reports of people who are coming over from other countries who are claiming to be translators to the English army into English, and yet they don't speak English. The numbers simply aren't there. She brings up the point about things like church papers um not being translated uh being translated into Ukrainian but not other other languages. We were we were recording this in the Copthorne St. John's hub next to the St. John's Church in Copthorne, where they have. put services into Farsi. So we can't just say stuff to try and make it about skin colour and hope that it's true. But you've also got to recognise that we can't help everyone in the world. We we naturally you help those closer neighbours to you first. In the same analogy, if there's somebody in your community who goes through an issue, you'll help them. If you have a neighbour that needs some bread, you m you'll give them bread, but you recognise it's not you can't give bread to everybody in a city.

SPEAKER_08 44:34

And the beauty of this is we're all coming to this with good intentions, right? Uh James, you mentioned this to me in a break so I'm going to use the the phrase but we've all come to this from good intentions. We're trying to find some common ground, some way forward. And I think we're all making good points based on our lived experiences and what we've observed. And for Abigail that was her observation based on the work that she's done for Homes for Ukraine and what she observed in her community near Oxted where people of colour were getting treated at less priority than those from Ukraine. That was her observation. And James you're making a good point and so are so are you Paul. But is there any common thing that we all agree on? I think we all agree on that there's too much uncontrolled immigration. Not all asylum seekers I think we all agree that true asylum seekers even G, we're going to hear from again in a minute, would agree that any bona fide asylum seeker absolutely we should treat in the right way. Should we process them quicker? Absolutely. Could we do that offshore in in France? Absolutely so I think we all agree on those points don't we? Paul Yeah so there's some common ground there. Now let's hear from G. Uh and he's going to talk a little bit more about this. And then I did ask him would he be up for because I really wanted G to be here at this table and and and this is what he said in declining that offer.

SPEAKER_16 45:52

I don't if you can prove to me that a young family has been persecuted their own country and they needed to flee flee their country then come and tell me your story. I'll champion I'll walk alongside you I'll go to any demonstration that anyone organises as long as it's fair and truthful. Like I say come to here call these people out because let's just say for Amber speaker there's 200 people in this hotel. There's not 200 people being persecuted.

SPEAKER_08 46:14

Would you be up for a conversation a bit of a debate around this rather than being on the street and that a protest would you be up for a conversation?

SPEAKER_16 46:21

If I'm honest with you I've give up now talking to people that don't agree with me anymore. Because if they can't see what's happening now then they're never going to see but why don't they come here today and actually speak to people there's no violence here there's no animosity if you come here today open your hand I'll shake anyone's hand.

SPEAKER_08 46:38

I was a bit surprised that he didn't take my kind offer for a conversation but it's very difficult to get a true patriot who's really every Sunday every other Sunday turning up for you and and to just come and have some dialogue and conversation I'd like to call myself a patriot when I turn up but no I as you've seen it's very difficult to get people let's be honest with the most of the issues we've had are from people from left-wing parties.

SPEAKER_17 47:05

But it's been very difficult across the board um to find people who are willing to actually have a conversation actually have a debate and to be held accountable for what they're saying. We've all got our opinions and we've all decided to come here and actually be held accountable. And yeah it it's it's depressing how many people just want to be able to push their opinion out there turn their phone off and refuse to engage with anything else.

SPEAKER_08 47:30

I think the large majority are out there just like G for economic reasons. Let's not use the hotels doing this let's get our country back that kind of thing without it being racist without but I think also there are others that are coming from further afield and we're going to hear more from them in the moment who perhaps are using that agenda to serve their own purposes and a much stronger and that could be class as far right would would we agree with that what do you think James?

SPEAKER_17 47:59

I I think I think Because you're a patriot but you're not racist right no absolutely and and I think vast majority of people are patriots and vast majority of people aren't racist. There is a really really I think I've talked about this before a really concerning rise of people like stand up to racism calling us far right and this is as I said before this has had people send horrible abusive messages to their work emails this is Justin Crawley a friend of a Labour counsellor saying to people that they should kill us in the street ripping at posters saying that they hope we die horribly and that we should be killed.

SPEAKER_08 48:33

I've had people very hostile very very hostile but I've had people pictures of people being killed whilst we've got Paul here Paul would would you class James and reform to be far right and racist I truly don't believe all of them are um I believe that with a lot of politics there is the Overton window has been shifted so much that it's almost impossible to know who's left and who's right.

SPEAKER_03 49:04

It's been so covered up and disguised and as James has said there are people that are I'm sorry as you said yourself there are people that are jumping on the bandwagon um that are from the national fund for the BMP um and have had um dealings with racism and they're jumping on the bandwagon of reform because they're the largest moving party in politics right at this moment. And with anything like that you get the same with like Labour you get like the far left in Labour the the the Marxist the communist part of Labour.

SPEAKER_17 49:43

But you understand sorry sorry to interrupt but you understand my concern when stand up to racism labels people as far right and I'm seeing the the consequences of that personally personally yeah and it it's the the way they they they're treating people um is is horrible and you only have to look on our social medias to see that the abuse we get is far worse than the abuse of all the other parties in cruelty combined.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

Arguments are running very high um fueled by rather divisive social media um with algorithms that are leaning towards right wing policies and right wing agendas um it highlights more right wing thinking um and people are following it.

SPEAKER_17 50:34

But do you disagree with standard racism calling reform far right?

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Not necessarily as I think there are far right elements within reviv within reform. I think that's a well known fact. Well it is because there's been people um there's been several counselors that are from reform that have had to stand down because of their racist remarks on their Facebooks and Twitter pages, sorry X pages.

SPEAKER_17 51:00

There's been um But you agree with that too I agree I agree that there have been people who've had to stand down for that sort of thing. I agree that's happened in reform I agree that's happened in Labour I agree that's happened in conservatives would I use extremist language to describe them no especially when I've seen the hate the hatred that that stirs up and the consequences that people who are really just trying to make a better difference their community the the scaremongering hatred that they have to face to try and discourage them from being in politics no and I I I wouldn't want any part of trying to label a small minority in a party which has happened and feeling threatened and feeling threatened for trying to be because a lot of people counselors no matter what party are here to try and make a difference for community.

SPEAKER_08 51:44

Paul any final comment before we hear this next phrase from um Hampshire resistance and it'd be good to listen to this in the moment. Paul anything else you want to come back on James on there not just at the moment we'll see what um the Hampshire resistance has to say.

SPEAKER_15 51:58

It feels like I've been fighting since I was 20 years of age I'm now 66 years of age fighting for my country. I'm out here and that's what it feels like.

SPEAKER_08 52:06

It feels like we're actually representing and and and fighting against this um open borders it's ridiculous and and for you for you to know that you've been successful what does success look like for you to stop fighting for your country as you put it what would good look like what three things would need to happen close the borders that's one close the borders to who?

SPEAKER_15 52:28

That's what that's one could completely close all our borders. To what holidaymakers or no no no no no no no to illegal immigrants okay so illegal immigrants better control and close the borders okay I don't mind a refugee coming in from a warm-torn country but they're not coming in through the proper routes through the proper routes 100% that's number one that's number one number two is deportation of the illegal men that's already came in.

SPEAKER_09 52:53

That is a must because they're causing crimes and this is your your problem with the hotels let's not put them in the let's let's deal with them and deportation luxury when we have got homeless on our streets we've got veterans on our streets and these are being treated like five star guests in this country which they're not they come here illegally I don't care what anybody says but if they if you didn't enough have nothing to hide why are you chucking your documents in the sea okay it's because that's number two deportation of those that are here already illegally mass deportation of people that are living in this country who've come from other countries who do not want to accept our culture.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

And are here illegally okay I get that and number three yeah and number three keep the flags flying well the whole mass deportation thing is actually really scary um when you think if you want to get rid of large proportions of this country's workforce then who's gonna be fitting up for those places?

SPEAKER_08 53:55

And this is where it got a bit muddy are we talking about illegal immigrants that have no right to be here or people that are not abiding by the British culture per se and and this is where it got a little bit murky in that conversation you just heard yeah yeah I mean there are I mean by by definition people like Z A U Sith could find himself being deported technically and we've seen what how that works in the US yeah yeah exactly so it's like just where do you draw that line of people taking you close the borders and deport every single person you're gonna be deporting like a large percentage of the population of this country and then you've got to replace that proportion with people that are going to be qualified to do the jobs you're taking away from people that are being deported.

SPEAKER_17 54:50

Um just to I mean this chapter's uh it's just a um a vox pop the um but to clarify reform's position on this I mean when we talk about the US of course I presume we're talking about Obama who's deported far more people than Trump including putting children in cages but we we reform's policy will be what we have an ASSV which is an acute skills shortage visas. So if we do find that there are shortages then we can have smart immigration where people can stay but one one one area where I'm really concerned is the BMA's grip on the throat of the government in restricting the numbers of medical professionals we we hire. And I very sadly had a relative pass away recently and he was being told about how long it'll take him to die by somebody who'd come from another country who had such a thick accent that neither he nor my father could understand him. I also had somebody come in who said he was going to take his temperature unfortunately the accent was so thick and the English wasn't there that he jabs into his mouth and hurts him. And so the the solution isn't just to take people who don't necessarily have good English, put them into our NHS and take them from countries that actually have fewer doctors and nurses than we do so we're causing issues over there. The solution has to be not to let's stop the English from applying to jobs in and and um qualifying as doctors we have to get rid of the BMA's grip and get rid of the restrictions on the doctors that we're training.

SPEAKER_08 56:17

So on healthcare we talked about NHS privatising earlier let's get back to Maz. So we met Maz at the very top of this episode go on Ingol You love doing that.

SPEAKER_06 56:26

No because we're talking about doctors. I've got two first cousins who immigrated here from Pakistan. Have they got thick accents I would think so but they are doctors here in the UK I just thought I'd throw that out there. I'm not saying yeah absolutely there's going to be doctors and they're well established and they've been here for I think like 20 odd years working for the British people.

SPEAKER_17 56:48

Amazing the point is but you you would agree right so they'll have children who are now doctors yeah but the the the point the point is the the point is is there it was made harder by the government for their children to become doctors because there are restrictions on the numbers.

SPEAKER_06 57:04

But they are doctors they're children I'm not saying no I'm not saying the numbers I'm just talking about what we're talking about. Yeah. The point is it shouldn't be made harder my one cousin now the two two of his kids are now doctors in the UK also. So they're actually four from them immigrants.

SPEAKER_08 57:18

Didn't you feel like becoming a doctor? I was a street pharmacist a difference. Right let's get back to Maz.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

And I think if you talk about controlling immigration uh we are an island um we're an island built on immigration and if you look at the health service about a quarter of the people who work in the health service are from different countries they they're the backbone of our country and of our society. Lots of people support the NHS whereas groups like um reform they want to privatize the NHS they want they want to take it out of public ownership and privatization of the NHS has not gone well you know in terms of it being for profit rather than people's needs. Yeah I think immigr immigration is welcome here from my perspective and refugees are welcome here from my perspective because those people are fleeing places like Syria Afghanistan where actually the war has been caused by you know our country and other countries interfering within their society.

SPEAKER_17 58:13

It's very concerning how the Labour Party are scaremongering people into not voting for reform because of the uh what they're saying about the NHS reform will never privatise the NHS it would always be free of the point of view. This is just another Labour lie that they're willing to scaremonger the British people into believing purely to win elections.

SPEAKER_08 58:35

So misinformation categorically Nigel Farage reform never privatizing it. Okay never categorically we got it on the tape let's see um Paul any thoughts from you on that last piece from Maz?

SPEAKER_03 58:50

Yeah I don't think it helps when Nigel Farage has been shown to be saying that he thinks that an American style healthcare system is what this country needs. That's what people are going on.

SPEAKER_17 59:01

No I mean he he was talking hypothetically about different situations and um and the insurance system that referred to is more Swiss based than American but he wasn't saying we should do it. He was just talking about the different types of systems um so so no but it's not reform policy at all to to move to privatised NHS one bit. I know people like to scare the public and that's what's really concerning how willing they are to scare people into voting for them.

Flags As Pride Or Pressure

SPEAKER_08 59:27

But Paul any final point from you before we hear about flag flying as well from US go for the flag flying.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

But I think a lot of the flags that have gone up particularly on the lampposts are an intimidation and they are put up by people who have links with the far right and those organisations and there was a demonstration in Manchester um yesterday a big demonstration by the fascists and they were they were outnumbered by the anti-fascists and they they actually have said that they want anybody who is not white whether they've got British citizenship or not to basically be um kicked out of Britain.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:05

And I think this is the worry right this is the worry about flag flying we did do a whole episode on this um around the intention for flying flags is it patriotic or are we trying to send a message? And just some just to add to that some other voices from the general public on that.

SPEAKER_14 1:00:22

People can voice their protests it's a free country they do as they see fit as long as they stick within the parameters of legality there's nothing I can say or do.

SPEAKER_12 1:00:30

I think um the British are coming out and saying that this is their country which I totally support because as people are not adapting to their culture they're trying to take over their culture and that's not the right way to go. You are a guest so this is a house you don't go to a house and say oh thank you for inviting me now I'm taking over now you go to a house you you act like a guest you are polite and you understand that you don't own the house.

SPEAKER_11 1:00:56

Well everybody's got their national pride and uh we are uh obviously in the UK it used to be Great Britain yeah I do think that Britain has um got quite strong views on the amount of um immigrants that are coming into the UK my daughters feel that it makes for a very cosmopolitan society but the older generation definitely feels I think some of them a sense of threat.

SPEAKER_12 1:01:24

We are in 2026 and people have plenty of time to understand that we need to respect each other's cultures and religions people still think that their religion is better than the others and there's not such a thing.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:37

I I find it amazing listening to those sound bites from the general public there's a lot of common sense in that soundbite and I don't know sometimes there's so much division in the community when did it get so polarised? When did it get so hostile? Because there is a lot of common ground even listening to G, listening to Maz, listening to reform there's a lot of common ground but I don't know some people just love friction and whether it's to seed misinformation, lead people down the garden path, I don't know. I don't know where it's going wrong.

SPEAKER_17 1:02:13

There's an issue generally of just oversimplifying things and thinking I have my beliefs and if somebody disagrees with me it's because they're stupid or less intelligent. But without actually having the mettle to be tested on those views. And it's purely that um unfortunately these days with the internet you can put your opinions out there and not be held accountable.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:33

And we did want someone we've tried really hard to get someone from the far right to take part and properly the far right and if anyone listens to this we may even repeat this with someone at the table we'll be totally up for that um but we've tried really hard to make this diverse and mixed I do think that a lot of people believe that the national flag and the flag of St.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:54

George has been deserved by the far right as an emblem of white nationalism. I don't think that the faux Christians that are faithful they belong to the far right for Christianity reasons are really being very Christian about it at all when you think that Saint George himself wasn't even British. He was born in what is now Persia. So it it it has been weaponized and it has been made as an intimidation for people and it's taken away from those of us that are patriotic and support our country and want the best for our country and it's made it feel like that we can't fly the flag because then we're gonna get tarnished with the far right thrust. I mean and it's it's it's it's bad.

SPEAKER_17 1:03:47

My my I mean you you talked about during the 80s when there was a genuine problem with extremism um I I my my my family have always had a flag up on the house um we don't actually anymore ironically I just have to get it back put back up um but for for for uh decades there was always a flag and nobody associated it then with that it it's more now. But if you genuinely feel like that then use it. Every party uses a flag on its on its leaflets. It's one of the ways you tell you get a political leaflet through the door you can use it use it at your marches use it at your activism use it at whatever you want to do. It is a flag that's supposed to represent everybody in this country. And so don't if you think that it's being used by somebody you don't like then counteract that by using it. I mean it's it's a fantastic flag it's a fantastic country and if you if you don't like the it's you you feel like it's only being used by one group then the only way to do something about it is for another group to to use it too.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:43

I've only just this thought only just come in my head now. But if you but if you actually look back this flag um movement started because of all the uh Free Palestine marches and most people got tired of seeing the Palestinian flag flying everywhere. That's how from my perspective anyway.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:03

Well hopefully flag flying was a lot earlier because I mean if you go to Turkey on the holiday Turkish flags are everywhere. I mean I mean they've got massive flags they've got the biggest flags I've ever seen in Turkey. Of course but this phenomenon now this little movement now in the U I think what's interesting is the intention of flying the flag if it's in your heart there's good intention because you're patriotic there's a sporting event or it's St. George's Day which is coming up great. If you're sending it because you really want to send a message go home not so pleasant.

SPEAKER_17 1:05:34

No I think I think if you get if you look at where they're putting them up it's a it's around hotels and these hotels all used to have Union Jacks outside the St. George um sorry the uh uh George Hotel in Crawley called the George had uh Union Jack outside had a St George's flag the Cockfun Hotel had Union Jacks out outside hotels have always and they still do have Union Jacks outside well along with the EU flag they had the EU flag union jack they had a number of flags

SPEAKER_08 1:06:00

Right, but now they've got no flags other than the St. George's Cross.

SPEAKER_17 1:06:06

And remove our flag down. So to me it seems only natural that people are going to put their own country's flag back up.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:12

And and we did do a whole episode on this, and I think collectively we agreed that there's no harm in flying the flag. There was a massive debate around this. Um and Paul, shame we didn't have you as a guest on that one as well. Any any any final thoughts, Paul? We've got one more thing to listen to. I actually let's just play this and then we wrap up. Let's just play this one. Hang on, hang on.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

My message would be that the enemy is not uh people who are black or brown, the enemy is not people who are refugees. If you want to look at who the if you want to have an enemy, if you want someone to blame for what, you know, for poverty, for lack of social services or lock at housing, you need to look at the government, you need to look at the people who put profit before people, and you need to blame the right people.

SPEAKER_17 1:06:57

I I I thought that was quite eloquently said. I absolutely do, I mean the government's a shambles, they're clearly not putting the people first.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:02

Are you gonna say that because you're a fool?

SPEAKER_17 1:07:04

I think I I I'd like to know how many people who are listening to this actually think the government's doing a good job. Um but yeah, I think we can all we can all agree that we need an we need a change of government.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:13

And I definitely think Brexit is a massive, massive cause for you might.

SPEAKER_17 1:07:18

It was the biggest mandate any government's ever had. We've never had so many people turn out to vote. I've never asked you, James. Do you do do you agree with Brexit? 100%. No, my father worked closely with the EU for many, many years. I saw how the people in the communities that they were supposed to be helping didn't want them there. I saw internally how it worked, and so absolutely I'm 100% in support of Brexit.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:37

But for me personally, it just means that I'm I feel slightly imprisoned. I used to be able to live in the Netherlands, work in other areas, and that now I feel but anyway, that's another topic for another day. Paul, any wrap-up words from you?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:48

Quite a few. Um, number one, there's no hotels in Tilgate, and yet there is an absolute colletra of flags flying up there. There's no Till there's no hotels in Southgate that were anywhere near the flags. And obviously we are diametrically opposed to one another on a lot of issues. Um do you think we've found any common ground?

SPEAKER_08 1:08:12

In this whole hour or so we've been talking, do you do you feel there's been any revelation or common ground that we've found, Paul?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:18

Um yeah, I think we can all agree that um we need to process asylum seekers quicker for their benefit and for ours. Mass deportations is not going to work, it's gonna be a disaster, and it will probably end up going to court and being found to be illegal as well.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:37

And and reform, you you you you you don't endorse mass deportations.

SPEAKER_17 1:08:42

Uh well, I would like to firstly talk about the flags which are paid for by residents of the wards that they're put up in. Um the person who um puts them up also does litter picking. Um and so he's uh he's a very passionate man that wants to improve the area that he lives in and and the residents of the streets like them. Unfortunately have places people coming up from places like Brighton to take down flags that residents in other towns have put up. Um do I agree? Do I agree with mass deportations if you're illegal?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:07

Isn't that what the Hampshire Patriots are doing by coming up to Hawley? They're not isn't that the same thing? No. Yeah, yeah, no, it's the same.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:14

I mean the Portsmouth, we have the Hampshire we had the Hampshire. No. How's that not the same thing? It is the same thing. So we have to do it.

SPEAKER_17 1:09:22

No, because you can go No, no, it isn't. Because you can go up and go and support a cause, but when you're actually taking down things that residents have put up, that's very, very different.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:31

So let's be clear, but they're put up illegally, it's actually illegal to put them on lampposts.

Voting Deadlines And Local Accountability

SPEAKER_17 1:09:37

I mean, by the way, it oh god, how terrible. I I must say, I mean it's that's a law that I think it's fine to flout if if you're concerned about it being illegal to put a f flag on a lamppost, I must say illegal. I think there are worse crimes.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:52

Well, I'd tell you where we should go. That's 10 Downing Street, uh, auto polling booth on the 7th of May. Yeah, I I think um Maz made a good point there in summing up, like we should we should put the blame at the people that make these decisions either locally or or nationally. Uh Paul, go on. Sorry, we caught you in mid-flow there with your points. Continue, sir.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:12

No, I totally agree. We need to be making sure that people have got the right to vote, that they make sure they register to vote, although I think the couple state is getting pretty close. So the more people that we can get to register and use their vote, the better. Um, and I'm all for the proper democratic system of making sure people can vote.

SPEAKER_08 1:10:34

And it's interesting with the seventh of with the 7th of May rapidly approaching, we did a whole episode, a full-length episode on why people don't vote and and what people should do. And and for me, one takeaway was maybe don't even think about the party. Think about the person locally that's on that balance sheet that you can that you believe resonates with you and is going to make the biggest difference for you. I think that was a really nice thing that I heard when we had that discussion, right, James?

SPEAKER_17 1:11:04

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, sorry, just to add, I'm which one's going out, but the deadline to register vote is the 20th of April, so it is fast approaching.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:12

That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_17 1:11:12

Um, um I mean you understand where somebody's values are by their party, so I totally understand where that is. But yeah, look at the individual, do they really care about their area? Um, yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:24

I was a frontline worker during COVID, organising food parcels to go to people to organise and pick up from different stores and everything, selecting all their food. And the communities in Crawley, they came together like I've never seen before in my life. There were people going around and knocking on other people's doors to make sure they had bread, make sure they had milk. That's the communities that the councillors want to build. That's the communities that they want for Crawley.

SPEAKER_17 1:11:48

I don't think people. I I agree. I'm not sure people necessarily agree um at large that they're seeing what they want from their councillors locally.

SPEAKER_08 1:11:58

Um it's lovely to see that community spirit, and it's particularly in Crawley and the surrounding area. We've seen it when it works really well. It's just pretty sad that that that society's become quite divided. And so the purpose of this episode was hopefully to break down some of those barriers and to hear different viewpoints and find that common ground.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:17

Ichbel, you look you look uh no, just uh I think what I think everyone needs to do as an individual is whatever you see online on social media, fact check it, educate yourself and come up with a educated uh decision for whatever you do. Don't just go by uh GB News or Facebook or Instagram or even the BBC. Self-educate yourself and uh know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_08 1:12:46

And hopefully we can help with that. And any suggestions, do reach out and let us know. Hopefully, you're enjoying these episodes. Check us out on Spotify, Sussex and Surrey Soapbox, follow us there, uh, and we'll be back with another episode soon. James, thank you so much. Iqbal. And we are looking forward 11th of July, we're doing a party uh in Broadfield, Tess's Kitchen serving the food. It's a free one for all of the family. Paul, thank you so much for helping us with the party coming up, but also today, quite a knowledgeable chap, you know your stuff. Thank you very much, Paul.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:18

That's not a problem. Glad to really kind that you've invited me on. Really appreciate it, and good luck for James as well on the seventh. Thank you.

SPEAKER_17 1:13:24

I'll count on it.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:28

You won't be counting on my vote, I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:30

No, I know you didn't mean it when you said good luck to James, did you? Well, now we're getting up in HS Egg Bells voting.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:37

Yeah, I mean, uh to be absolutely honest, anyone that's putting their neck on the line and standing up like that, they did they do deserve respect. Just because I I am completely and utterly 98% against everything they stand for, doesn't mean I can't respect them for putting their head on the block. What's the two percent?

SPEAKER_08 1:13:51

You do agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:54

Um James. It's a good name.

SPEAKER_17 1:13:57

What about the slogan make poundhill tidy? That's a good slogan I know you see my slogan. That's a good slogan.

unknown 1:14:04

Cheesy.

St George’s Day And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_03 1:14:06

Yeah, it's it's a very Gorgonzola, isn't it? Very Gorgonzola.

SPEAKER_17 1:14:10

I I think people love that slogan. I think it's very effective. That's what's that's a clinic for me.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:14

And just quickly before we wrap up, we're gonna continue. Uh St. George's Day's coming up. How are you gonna celebrate that Paul? Let's get Paul first. Paul, St. George's Day.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:24

Well, normally I have a uh stand outside where the um old high street is, the C C I R. Um, we didn't get invited this year because there wasn't enough of us to do it, so I hope to put the port in diver crawley, we're all gonna be there. So I'll be hopefully be there on St. Patrick, on St. George's Day.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:41

On St. George's Day, and also I think on Saturday, the 25th of April, in in Crawley High Street, also Hawley High Street, there's gonna be celebrations as well.

SPEAKER_12 1:14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:50

Um, and um it's funny, St. Patrick's Day, we all know how to celebrate that. St. George's Day, I don't know, we do seem to sort of struggle a little bit, other than the flag flying.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:59

I mean, could he was Turkish? Go get a cab. Okay. Don't, don't, don't.

SPEAKER_17 1:15:05

Um, yeah, I think um James is gonna put his flag back up on the family property. We will. Um, there might even be a suit of armor in the Crawley uh Queen Square, which people can have their photos with.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:14

Um, the photo opportunity.

SPEAKER_17 1:15:17

Not me, unfortunately, but hopefully we've got a suit of armour uh we can have people with a nice photo opportunity um for the children to uh have the photos with them. Lovely.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:27

Thank you very much. We'll see you on the next episode. See you all later.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:33

Tell us what do you think? Leave a comment below or click on send a text. Thank you for listening to the Sussex and Surrey soapbox.