Social Media Rewards Conflict More Than Community

 Roundtable Featuring: Michelle Lucas (Special Guest), Maureen Jones, Micaela Leal, Georgie Lucas, Aga Es, Abigail Chapman-Miller, James Tidy & Magdalena Rahman. Host: Clive Hilton. 

Social media can make grown adults talk like strangers at war, and we’ve all felt that shift. Around our Sussex & Surrey Soapbox Roundtable, we dig into a blunt question: does the internet reward conflict more than community? and is it warping local democracy in the process?

We talk through what the run-up to the 7 May local elections looked like from the front line, including the personal cost of campaigning when online abuse escalates into accusations, slurs, and lazy labels that replace real policy debate. James and Abigail share how quickly people jump to “Nazi”, “transphobic”, or worse, and why that kind of reductionistic language doesn’t just hurt feelings, it discourages good people from standing for office at all. We also explore the tribalism that turns politics into a football match, where winning the argument matters more than understanding the neighbour.

Then we pull back the curtain on the incentives: algorithms, rage bait, bots, and the odd reality that longer angry comments can be worth more than simple support. We debate anonymity and accountability, including the legitimate need for anonymous profiles in situations like domestic abuse, while still calling out how “purple pomegranate” accounts can poison community Facebook groups. We also widen the lens to loneliness, generational change, and what constant screen time is doing to children’s imagination and social skills.

If you want a thoughtful, honest conversation about social media algorithms, online trolling, free speech, community cohesion, and the future of political debate, press play. Subscribe, share with a friend, and leave us a review then tell us where you draw the line between free expression and responsible speech.

Please click on 'Send a text' above & join our Facebook group to share your perspective and suggestions for future topics - Thank you for your interest! Clive.

Transcript

Does Social Media Reward Conflict?

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome to the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox. Real viewpoints, real opinions, and a balanced conversation on the community issues that matter.

Campaigning And Online Abuse

SPEAKER_06 0:10

It's the Sussex and Surre soapbox, and uh yeah, fascinated by this subject. It's all about social media. Does it reward conflict over community? It's something we've alluded to in various episodes, but particularly on the lead up to the local elections that we saw on the 7th of May. A lot of hostility, not just on the political side, but also in social media, even just how we have conversations on social media where we don't really treat each other as humans. This is how we are starting it now. We've got various people in the room. We've also posted recently the episode on Bios, so you've got to meet everyone on the round table. But we've got special guests with us as well, Michelle, who owns a business in Lingfield, which we're talking about next week. But yeah, just on this topic, where should we get started? I guess the councillors, people that have recently stood for local election, uh who have been at the front end, I have to give you a big round of applause because I think to actually, no matter what your political standpoint, to actually stand up for what you believe and be opinionated, go on doorsteps, I think takes a lot of courage and and it's not it's not what you see most people doing. So big round of applause. I think big round of applause for it. Regardless of political uh standpoint, uh, but how have you found it? James, from a reform point of view, did you enjoy it?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, I mean obviously it's always good to speak to people about their concerns. Um, in terms of social media side of things, obviously we have seen uh the most uh negativity um and quite extreme language um to try and disparage reform or disparage our beliefs, they will use extremist language to sort of as in a sort of reductionistic way to say you are wrong because of X, Y, and Z. And if you are calling somebody Nazi or fascist, whether that's in person or online, which we've seen both, it is going to encourage some sort of violence, some sort of negativity. But people seem to think it's acceptable. I mean, uh certain individual individuals will say, Well, let's call them this because that then looks bad for anyone who's attempting to vote for these people.

SPEAKER_06 2:18

Well, I I I I think I think with reform particularly being on the right-hand side, shall we say, of politics, where some people would say reform are racists, I think that's that's come up over and over.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yeah, I mean, but it will come up with all political parties. I mean, the group there's a protest recently in Brighton where there were former Green members and people uh who were left wing saying the Greens are racist, and that was explicitly said. It would always be used in a disparaging way. Um, the Conservatives had it when they were a major party. People are now just using it for reform because it's an easy way to detract from a party rather than saying we don't like reform because of X, Y, and Z. In terms of real objectivity and point making. Exactly. Here are your policies we did disagree with. It's we don't like you because we're morally superior, you are this, you are that. And it's just a simple way to say we don't like you. You know, we don't want to have a debate with you, but we will call you these these names, which will inevitably lead to violence.

SPEAKER_06 3:16

And Abby, obviously, Labour, how how have you found it?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

I've really enjoyed it. Um I think there's some of the same sentiment. My family were very anxious about me standing, one standing in an area that is not positive when it comes to Labour, and two because of the clock current climate. And social media has just been a place to rip you apart, regardless of actually what I believe or what the Labour Party is doing. Everyone's got this point of view that they will peddle. Um, I think I've been called transphobic quite a lot. Um, I've never actually spoken on the issue either way, because I haven't needed to, or the but it's that judgment, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 4:03

I think a lot of people in society we're we're reaching judgments and throwing it out there, almost being protected that you're behind a screen. You can just say anything you want. And I think you know, from doing this round table and this podcast, even for the last few months, it's been fascinating because it started with the idea that we see a lot of friction in society, we want to have more conversation with a diverse panel. It's been really difficult to get anyone from Green Party when we're on the political topics, it's not always political, but Green will not come to the table and have a debate about the topics. We found a real issue with that. Even Labour, you know, some of your cruelly counterparts uh have boycotted the conversation and and not to be and and we're all about bold opinions, having discussion, because the idea is more dialogue leads to less division, you'd hope. Magdalena?

Labels That Shut Down Debate

SPEAKER_04 4:55

Yeah, I like to have sometimes a heated conversation on social media, but we've seen it, yeah. Yeah. Um, but I like to speak with I to know with who I'm talking, not for example, some green legs, you know. If you have some opinion, then you're supposed to say that, you know, from your account. So, you know, if you have your opinion, why are you shy to say that from your well, especially when anonymous, right?

SPEAKER_06 5:18

I think you're talking about when someone chooses to be the pink spotted pineapple laying there on the sofa, just just throwing it out there. I think, you know, how helpful is that? I think be your person, stand by your convictions and your opinion, have that, have that conversation. But I think some people just like to do it for fun. I'm I'm reaching the conclusion that it's the new hobby people have to just literally do that.

SPEAKER_07 5:40

I think that that's where the the term troll came from, somebody who was almost professionally causing conflict and just putting it. But it used to be a few, didn't it? It's a growing thing, but now everyone does it.

SPEAKER_06 5:52

And you know, in doing this round table, typically James Tidey, Iqbel Khan, polar opposite. But actually on social media that might look to be the case. But actually, in the conversations we have had over the last few months, there has been some friendly banter, there has been a rapport, a mutual respect, and I think that's key on social media. You don't get that rapport and respect.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

I think it's politic politically convenient for a lot of people to not have that rapport or to not have genuine conversations. To just be stuck in their point of view and keep repeating the same. Put a viewpoint out, hope people latch onto it, hope people listen to that, and then and then leave it at that. And then that's where for us the concern is in the sort of hateful language we've seen. Um and I I I would say, and I I don't in any way mean to um disparage Abigail, but I think uh we're seeing it now more from the left than the right. And I think historically that wasn't the case, but I think these days the the the attacks, and I again this is not this is nothing to Abigail at all. Um, but I th uh I I think it it's it is coming from the left, and it is horrific language. I posted a post on social media, somebody says, why don't you talk about Mandelson? I put a post where we get Mandelson, somebody says, I won't go into details, but they call me a pedophile for posting about Mandelson. And it's anything that is said, it will be used to attack us no matter what we talk about.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

I think this is working both ways because I've recently uh before the election, I uh posted on social media picture with the leaflet vote green. And I've received a lot of hate, a lot of comments as well from this Anonymous especially, uh, which which they were saying vote reform, vote reform, and the swearing words as well, you know. So I think this is working both ways.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

I'm sorry sorry, I'm not I'm not claiming it's coming from 100% from from the left, but as Abigail said, the attacks that calling her transphobic probably weren't from reform supporters or from the right. They were probably people from the Green Party and and the other.

SPEAKER_07 7:55

I I think that that's the big that what you've just touched on there is is kind of what I see the biggest problem is there's become a lot of tribalism um on social media, especially around the politics um and and and anything to do with politics at the moment. It's reform have grown very, very rapidly and they are actually threatening to become uh, you know, a party against the the main two very, very quickly. And I think there has become a tribalism, and you have been attracting a lot of people that don't uh typically get involved with politics. And so their political understanding, political language isn't really as well-versed as those who would normally argue for Labour or the Tories or whatever. So therefore, there is a bit more, as I say, tribalism involved in it. It's almost like a football match where you know it doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong, they're gonna support you anyway.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah, absolutely. I th I think I mean to me, not being involved within the other parties can be quite a positive because there's a lot of sort of complacency where complacency where people think I'm a certain party, so I will get involved in in a certain area. Um but in terms of the language, I can understand perhaps in a way where it's it's more the sort of language you hear in a pub rather than a dinner party. And it is a little bit coarse, but there's no there's no sort of malice behind it a lot of the time. It is just a little bit coarse, that sort of thing. The areas that I see um uh uh uh as concern is is really where I've seen the sort of really um unpleasant language, really reductionistic language where it's just these people are horrible people because they vote for a certain way or because they're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_06 9:34

Well, they may they might not be horrible people, they might just be sounding a little horrible.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

In terms of they're calling us horrible people because of beliefs.

SPEAKER_06 9:43

I I I don't know. I I get a sense when we think about the main two, Michelle, your point. I do feel that that local communities lost hope that things aren't changing quick enough and see reform as being maybe that accelerator, but then there's equal fear around all of the other policies that might go with that.

Anonymity Trolls And Tribalism

SPEAKER_09 10:00

Yeah, I mean, Michelle, you the word tribalism, I'd probably say identity politics, and I've been trolled online. I've been trolled on quite a personal level by people in the village because um a lorry had shed its load and it was quite near where I lived, and somebody had put on our village website and I'd said a jokey thing about, oh, okay, thank you for the warning, I'll go the other way, exclamation mark. And actually, I went up there to have a look to see if I could do anything, and um thought, right, I'll go back and get a broom or a rake or something after I've walked the dog. We went back, it had been cleared. And then people piled on social media and said, Call yourself a wannabe counsellor, you should like a 60-year-old woman can stop the traffic and clear all this debris off the road. So that was like a very personal level. So you think, well, you know, would you have done that if you if we were met in the street? And so why don't you get up there and clear it up? And then I've also um so but that that sort of on a personal on the sort of the tribal sort of identity politic side, um, I think there are a lot of people who um it is a hobby, it is a sport for them. So I've been the subject of misogyny online and not necessarily to do with sort of politics at all. This is just in life, commenting on things. Um, you know, um I commented on something a few weeks ago which you wouldn't get if you were at a restaurant or anything. If you were in a pub and you were chatting, I don't I said something the other day about something, and they said, Well, you wouldn't say this this if you were old. I said, I'm 60, I should be getting a pension now, you know, the Wossfeed women and all of that. And people just want to identify with, well, we're old and you've had it better than we have, or um, you know, I think the worst is the trans community. I think there's a lot of hate in the I mean it's like when I was a psychologist in the job centres, I had quite a few trans clients, and I happen to think that a lot of them are just just deeply unhappy people that are pinning everything on on that, and and it's it's very, very, very complex. Um, you know, I have uh I was called, somebody made some disparaging comment the other day about me being stupid or something. I'm thinking I'm a Bachelor of Arts, I'm a Master of Science, I'm a chartered insurer. I am not stupid, I'm quite well informed. But people just there's somebody sitting there who probably has only got half a brain cell, and they just um love it. I think one of the worst things for me at the moment, and I'm not Jewish, but I think the anti-Semitism that's going around at the moment, and sometimes I've spoken to people who I thought were quite sensible, quite normal, and they come out with quite some what I consider to be anti-Semitic, and I just think, mmm, and it's much worse online, and I just think it's all just seems to be in the last year or two, it's just okay, as you say, to hide behind you know, uh purple pomegranate or whatever. Um, but I then I do question if it's real or if some of it are bots. I think some of it, I think, are these people actually real? And I just think the best thing is stay off social media as much as possible.

Algorithms Monetisation And Rage Bait

SPEAKER_01 12:51

The issue for me is not identity, it is it's social media, and you know, talking about the trans community and and some of the voices within that community, I can guarantee you they won't speak for the majority of trans people. Just like I make an effort to watch all news channels, and same with podcasts because I have a point of view and I want to know what the other side is saying. GB News, I cannot remember his name, but has somebody come on quite regularly who's always wearing a pink top, gay, and talks as if he's talking for the whole gay community. I'm gay, I sit there horrified at what he comes out with, and the majority of people I know who are also LGBT are horrified. And I do sit there sceptically and thinking, well, look at where GB News is politically, they're not gonna have somebody like me come on and talk about sexuality, whereas when it's like the least important thing about me, but social media will channel everything and the loudest voices and the most extreme voices wherever you sit.

SPEAKER_06 13:56

And and this is the topic does social media reward conflict over community and the algorithms behind it, uh as I think Michelle, we we we said in the previous episode.

SPEAKER_07 14:07

Yeah, so um obviously a lot of there are a lot of influencers now, and and with the meta platform you can be um verified and then earn money through what you post. And the way it works is that if you've commented something, you might have a hundred comments, but they're all saying well done or great work. Because they're only two words, they don't get monetized. Whereas if you've got something that goes, This is awful, how dare you do this, you shouldn't do that, because it's more than six words long, you then get paid for that comment. So there is almost an enticement to get that debate going. To uh we call it rage baiting, where you post something deliberately controversial to cause people to post these negative things because actually then you get paid.

SPEAKER_06 14:46

And if we think about TikTok and WIDER and YouTube, I mean you've only got to watch that episode on Manosphere to understand how horrendously you can be out there and yet find you've got millions of subscribers and obviously monetizing it in that respect. So it does seem to reward conflict things, it's almost a perfect storm, isn't it? If we've got scarce resources and people fighting for scarce resources, there is a natural thing of looking at religion, Jack, to your point, whether it's you know, I'm Jewish, maybe I'm Muslim, maybe I'm you know, those communities are feeling threatened and the feeling that there's friction. When you mentioned tribalism, it got me thinking that it at some point in the future, five, ten years' time, do we see that this construct will still work? So, where we have the constitution, where we have political parties, could there be a time where actually communities will have a louder voice that's more devolved, and actually we get to a tribal thing of a community, a town having more political power themselves?

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Um so so what I've seen is in terms of what Abigail was saying about the people calling her transphobic, is I have a I have people, a couple of people who are constantly asking me which kebab place I've gone to, which I've never had a kebab, um, and trying to get me to to to admit to eating halal food to try and goad some sort of policy out of me or some idea out of me on Halal, and people like Abigail with with people calling her transphobic, they will they will try and accuse you of something when you've never mentioned it, and it's something incessant where you're just having somebody who is who wants to dislike you for a reason and they will accuse you of it with with literally no no no proof at all.

SPEAKER_09 16:25

But I think if people go online and they are um racist, especially I think um they it doesn't I mean I'm contradicting myself now because I said about earlier about anti-Semitism, but then you know who the people are. If people are online and they're just being vile about people because of different skin colour or different religion, I kind of want to know who those people are. To me, it's much worse if people are under the radar and have those thoughts, but a masquerading is is like normal, nice people, and we don't know that. So there is something to be said for not banning it.

SPEAKER_06 17:01

But do these same people want to have a conversation? I I I just feel that that they just enjoy being trolls.

Free Speech Versus Accountability

SPEAKER_09 17:10

Yeah, oh sorry, the word I was thinking of was censorship, it's finally come to me. So, yeah, so you censor people, then you don't actually find out their true beliefs. Um, but then I think there are a lot of people, as you say, there are a lot of people sitting there who wouldn't have the balls to come and talk to me um if we were sitting in the pub, they'd just be sitting in the corner. Um, they wouldn't they wouldn't want to engage with anybody that would have an interesting.

SPEAKER_06 17:34

So we don't agree regulation's a good thing. We don't want to police say and China and Russia are doing that, they're taking away some of the social media, some of the freedom of speech. Um so we like the freedom of speech. It's just putting your name to something, it's the anonymous um I think that's it, Claire.

SPEAKER_09 17:48

I think you've hit the name ahead. If you you want you can be out there and be as be as violent as you as you like, but um then don't don't hide behind, you know, purple pomegranate 74. Don't actually say who you are, then we know who you are. I think you've hit the nail on the head.

SPEAKER_06 18:02

Unless the intention is uh you want to do it anonymous, maybe you're in domestic abuse and you're trying to get there are situations where anonymous profiles make sense, but just to have conversations about it, I think it's is not. They should be banned.

SPEAKER_08 18:15

I think it's not not just political. I think that often I'll I'll look at um local Facebook pages and uh somebody will put a completely innocuous comment on there about, you know, oh I'm looking for some part-time cash-in-hand work. Uh, does anybody know anything that's available? And then there's this uh dark this you know constant um stream of comments afterwards that say, How dare you have cash in hand? I mean, you just think it was just a simple question that it just requires a simple answer, and then they just get this just a backlash. Um nobody knows their circumstances, everybody's feeling the pinch at the moment. If somebody is earning cash in hand, who knows whether they're gonna declare that? It doesn't matter. They were looking for a part-time job. I think everyone's so mm so miserable and bitter and unhappy at the moment as a nation that I think that you know, you know, in a way it's kind of like letting off a little bit of your own tension and um and unhappiness that you sort of like you can just sort of like let yourself simmer and do it to somebody that you don't know it. It almost like it doesn't hurt if you do that. Whereas, you know, if you sp if you if you had a go at one of your family members or whatever, then it would be very different. But you can do it anonymously, and you can just, you know, I mean, no, I wouldn't do it, but I think that it's a lot of people do do that now to to kind of make themselves feel a bit better.

SPEAKER_06 19:37

Just a quick sweep state. Has anyone ever posted anything on social media because it's an emotive kind of response that triggers? Have we all done that? Have we all done that? But we don't regularly we don't we don't make a habit of it.

SPEAKER_07 19:54

I've got it out of my system, and I just don't press send because then I go argue or this asked it, whatever.

SPEAKER_06 20:00

So you draft it quite a bit.

SPEAKER_07 20:02

I'll write it all and then I'll just delete quite bottom.

SPEAKER_06 20:07

Because then I can I just think But you don't do it as anonymous, that's the thing. You would do it as you.

SPEAKER_07 20:12

But there's an old adage that you know I I've I've been raised by my granddad, you can't argue with stupid, but it doesn't mean it doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. So I I will sometimes, I mean, especially on some of the political things, I'll write this really long thing and I'm just like arguing all of this, and then I'll just go, no, and then I'll just scroll to the next thing because it's just not worth it. You guys must get it when you're canvassing. This this late late's craze of the ring doorbell, somebody knocked on my door at two o'clock this afternoon. Does anyone know who it was? Well, if you'd have opened the door, you'd have to be a little bit more. Oh, and they share the video.

SPEAKER_06 20:44

Does anyone know this person?

SPEAKER_07 20:46

Or do you think maybe they might have been putting the link? Yeah, exactly. And it's almost this this almost assumption that everybody that you see in in public is some sort of threat to you because they've knocked on your door. Do you think that, you know, they could be asking for their ball back or something? I don't you know, it could be it's something completely innocuous. But there's this intimation that they're threatening them in somehow or that they're a danger because they've knocked on the door.

SPEAKER_11 21:09

I think it's also really easy to get uh mislead on information on internet. So not everything there you see, obviously, it's what it it looks like. And then there's the other thing, the comments is it's not really it's they are misunderstood or misinterpreted. It is not what you say, it's the way you say it. And when you see someone, you know exactly what they mean with the words that they're using. But when you someone is you're reading something, you can't really be sure. And people are getting so comfortable as well at home that they're not really this is becoming to the antisocial mode that people are in. So people are going out, people have uh less diversity of uh people they know, of cultures and everything. Sometimes you really think a culture is really bad and then you meet one person. That one person will actually make you understand that you're wrong, not everyone is the same. On that culture, or the d what you read on internet was fake. And then there's people that just want attention. And because of this antisocial, because people spend too much time at home, they they really need the attention from the internet because that's all they have. The only connection to the world outside is the internet. Definitely.

SPEAKER_06 22:20

And there's a flip side, those that need attention, it can show itself as you know being aggressive to others and judgment. But also it shows up. We've all got a friend on Facebook, perhaps that would post. It's almost like talking to Facebook as if it's their partner. Oh, I've had a tough day today. And you think all right. Um and maybe we should all be more compassionate and respond, go, I hope you're okay. Send the points on.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 22:49

We we only have so much to give each of us in terms of energy like that. But getting back to the hostility, any other points on this that we've seen and noticed?

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, obviously social media's a huge, a huge problem. And you know, just this week, you know, again, if I give context to the transphobic comment, the only reason I get it is because of the court, um, the court decision and then Labour looking into sort of single sex spaces. That's that's what it's based off of. And this this week and last couple of weeks we've had around, you know, I'm a paedophile sympathizer because of what's happened, and that's horrific. But on the same side, it's now social media is slipping into real life, and I worry about what politics will look like because there are many people who once thought about being candidates, won't, because they assume what they're gonna get online will happen in person. Oh, 100%. I've got to say it doesn't.

SPEAKER_06 23:47

In doing this podcast, and when we were getting ready for the politics discussion, the amount of people that didn't want to come around the table and are actually looking forward to stand down after the 7th May was incredible. And it's a shame because this country needs more opinion, more debate, more conversation, uh to hopefully make it a better society. But for you personally, Abby, with all of this, I mean I again I come back to what we said at the top. Uh amazing that you're doing what you're doing, James, Jack, everyone. I mean, no matter what your political standpoint, the fact that you do I mean, where do you get the thick skin from? And what's the personal impact? I mean, if someone called me P I I I I don't know how I'd handle it.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

I think f fundamentally, on how I handle it is I know I'm not those things.

SPEAKER_06 24:32

So I just what about everyone else that's seen the uh I mean there's that perception, isn't there?

SPEAKER_01 24:37

You can't control it. Um but fundamentally I've always been the type of person that you can call me anything if it hurts me or I'm constantly thinking about it, maybe I've got to look into myself a little bit about is there truth there? When I'm called things like a paedophile sympathizer, I know I'm not, you know. So I just I let it slide, and I think it's more on them than it is on me. And my go-to actually, whenever it's on commenting on Facebook, is I just go, I really appreciate your opinion, but you know, I'm not gonna continue the conversation. And they never comment back, and I've learned that the more you engage with it, the the bigger the argument gets. I also jokingly, but there is truth, um, come from a right-wing family and I've spent years debating my dad or my granddad, and have just learned that fundamentally we are so different politically, but the relationship's still there, and I think if more people could realise that there's so much more to people than political opinion, and political opinion is usually formed due to lived experience that we can still be friends?

SPEAKER_06 25:48

Because they get to know you, because they get to know you, whereas on social media you're just a name, just a profile picture, and people make judgments and they love throwing out their trolls. Um James, what about you? What's the most hurtful thing someone said to you apart from apart from when did you last eat a kebab? Which we cover have you have you ever has anything really because you've obviously got thick skin too.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Um yeah, I mean uh unfortunately I've not had a kebab, so I'll uh make sure to have one so I can find the answer to that and tell them if you can sort that out straight after this if you're absolutely it's every post I make, and I've had told them I've not had a kebab. Uh you I've got caught caught caught all sorts, um, every name under the sun. The worst has obviously been in person when you've we've had people saying these people are Nazis, you shouldn't speak to them, you should kill Nazis. Um and they've been ripping at posters, shouting at people in the street, it's it's uh you know a deep deeply unpleasant thing. But at the end of the day, uh as Abigail says, I I know I'm not a Nazi, so I it it doesn't affect me too much. I I'm not gonna I'm not gonna spend lie away at night worrying about that. Um but but uh for me genuinely I love crawley, really passionate about it. Obviously, my family's been in a very long time. So my goal is to help Crawley, and if if if my trying to help Crawley means that I get called a few unpleasant things, then I'm okay with that. That's that's a small price to pay.

SPEAKER_11 27:10

He's been training at home in front of the mirror. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 27:15

But what about you, Michaela? I mean, coming over from Portugal, do you do you sometimes feel feel people make judgments?

Loneliness And Lost Everyday Connection

SPEAKER_11 27:23

I just feel like people are more open in Portugal. You know, a a simple good morning, it's something that it's you would not pass through person without saying something if you cross eyes. And in here, people they avoid the eye contact as well.

SPEAKER_06 27:38

Only in the southeast of England. I think the further north you go into Wales, maybe that's a bit different.

SPEAKER_11 27:43

I I think people really don't don't want to connect. I feel I feel like more distance, and and you can feel in the presence of the person when someone wants to talk to you or someone wants you to uh just please keep walking or something. But from the elderly people, they love chatting. If I'm gonna stop on the street and have a chat, it will be from someone elderly. I'm not gonna get that connection with someone younger, and it's probably because they feel lonely, but I would assume that the young generation also feels lonely because they're not really socializing as much as they used to. That as we were saying, they stay more on social media. And the the other thing is that in Portugal, we if we go to a cafe or anywhere, we're gonna talk to everyone. So it regardless who you take with, it immediately becomes all a group. But in here, everyone is in their little groups, people don't really talk with each other. And usually I see a lot of fights in the pubs. Usually, if they start talking with each other, it's not gonna be a very good ending on it. Uh we just end up.

SPEAKER_06 28:44

That's a good point. We're not not all face-to-face contact.

SPEAKER_11 28:48

Yeah, if we start chatting with each other in Portugal, we just end up all having shots together.

SPEAKER_06 28:53

But also on the social media side of things, uh, when we think about Portugal and social media Facebook groups there, are they similar to what you're seeing here in?

SPEAKER_11 29:03

Yes, that is similar. I think the generation is not changing much from country. Yes, the the same wanting attention, uh, it's it's kind of similar as well.

SPEAKER_06 29:13

Same in Poland?

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yeah, yeah. I'd say culturally, the two countries are no different, which is why it's so easy to adopt here. Okay. Um, and I say we do have a fair share of trolls. It's not much different.

SPEAKER_06 29:28

Okay, so trolls is across the globe. Uh everyone thinks social media very important. But in person, the cultures show up a little bit more and a little bit friendly, warmly. Maybe we should all just move to Portugal make sure. So Georgie, what do you think?

SPEAKER_08 29:43

I I look back at my parents' generation, um, and I just think that they would never have spoken. I think we feel very liberated nowadays. I think we can f feel that we can say what we blumin' well think. And I don't necessarily think that's always a good thing. I certainly think that the generations now are much ruder and more direct than our parents' generations would be. If my father had disagreed with something that, I don't know, let's say Margaret Thatcher was saying, I don't think he would have gone had he had an online facility, I don't think he'd have gone on there and trolled her. I think he'd have been much more respectful. I think there was a lot more respect in the in the olden days.

SPEAKER_06 30:27

There's less accountability. There's less accountability and our word, you know.

SPEAKER_08 30:31

Yes, but I just think that there was there was so much more respect. And you might not have agreed with your political party that was run rolling the country, but I don't think that they would they would have ever um you know um done what what society's doing now, which is just trolling really and and don't you think it's bizarre?

SPEAKER_06 30:51

Because on one hand, yes, people don't own their words, a lot of trolling, but on the other hand, people are really easily offended.

SPEAKER_08 30:58

Yeah, definitely. There's very thin skins, aren't there?

SPEAKER_06 31:00

So and it and it's not on social so social media, as you say, people get in there and have their word, and they don't mind being offended on social media, but in real life, you wouldn't get away with it. People get offended and all sorts of havoc. I mean is there a difference between or was it just me?

SPEAKER_08 31:17

I don't know. I just know that as a as a as I'm I'm obviously people can't see this on the radio, but I'm a large, large woman, and I know that the immediately somebody wants to trigger me in some way, they call me fat. So if I I don't know, if I pull out on somebody in the traffic, they're like, oui, fatigue! Has anyone actually done that? Yeah, my god, yeah. Honestly, it it's their it's their it's their go-to thing. Or now, which is even worse, you old woman, you think, oh my god, because I've got grey hair. But it's this they go for the simplest common denominator to hurt you. And because because James stands up and says his opinion and he gets he gets you know shouted at for that, or Abby, you say your opinion. For me, if I if somebody wants to get at me, they just call me fat.

SPEAKER_06 32:04

I would never call you. I mean, I can't believe someone would just come outright and say that.

SPEAKER_08 32:09

Um it's not just a playground thing. It's oh you know, oh, you say fat cow or that sort of thing that they'll say, and you just think, whoa, hang on a minute, you know, and then I immediately revert to childhood behaviour and I want to go shorty or whatever they are, you know. And I think, no, just you know, pull yourself together. I just think that a generally a lot of society now are bloody rude, uh then unfiltered, and I think that they um feel that they can say whatever they want to say.

SPEAKER_09 32:38

Just listening to those comments, it's made me think really, um when I was young growing up, sort of in the late the late 60s, early 70s, people seemed to be living their lives outside a lot more, and maybe that's a difference between us and Portugal or the weather, I don't know. But growing up in my street, I knew who everybody was, and we've lost that now. Um, so you knew, even as a child, you knew that the bloke who lived at number 34 was a bit weird and you'd walk past his house quite quickly. But we didn't know the word pedophile then. But um but you And it might not have been, right? There's a little judgment there, Jake. But there but people were out tinkering with their cars, or they the women seem to be, I don't know, polishing the door knockers or whatever. Um that's a whole nother conversation. But people did seem to be outside a lot more. But I think the social media thing is linked. I think people have sort of come inside now, and either they're on social media doing all of that interaction that they used to be outside cutting the hedge or whatever, or um, just the point that you were saying about people in cafes and stuff. I've noticed when I've been knocking doors and canvassing, a lot of old people they open the door like two or three inches, and you just see a nose and an eye, and you think, Who's that scared little bird behind the door? And you say, Well, hello, it's you know, Jackie Linwood from Reform. And they open the door a bit wider, and then you just think, Well, are they gonna vote for me or not? I mean, I could just shove off because I don't know, and you just think, no, I'm gonna stay and make a connection with this person. And sometimes that person's saying, Well, look, I don't, I'm not gonna vote for you, but I've really enjoyed the chat. Or and you just and you're walking away from from the up the path, or sometimes that they're really lovely, and you have a chat about the old days or whatever, and you think just a feeling you've got I'm probably the only person that person's talked to today. And I just got that feeling quite a bit. There's a lot of loneliness. So I think the older people are probably hiding, hiding sort of in the houses, and maybe the other people that are perhaps a bit more computer savvy are on there, and instead of being out there mubbing the lawn or whatever, tinkering with their cars because no one can do that anymore because they're too complicated, they're inside just being keyboard warriors, maybe.

SPEAKER_11 34:47

And that's how they lose their social skills.

SPEAKER_09 34:50

100%. I think you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_06 34:52

And on your canvassing, did you ever get invited in for a cup of tea?

SPEAKER_09 34:55

Oh god, yeah. Yeah, you sort of think we have, you know, if you look at our app and think, I've got only got two more, two thousand more people to go, but but you know, the trouble is a cup of tea, though, you then need a pee, so you've got to hope somebody down the road's gonna let you use the loop.

SPEAKER_06 35:09

It's nice, it's nice that that that does happen, but it's not that it never is just uh uh Michelle, a special guest.

Performative Facebook And Real Engagement

SPEAKER_07 35:14

It was just to go on from what McKain was saying about A, there's there's no context when you're online, you don't you don't get that sort of that facial expression, you don't you know you don't see the perspective it's really coming from. But also when you were saying about you know, people will walk along the street and avoid eye contact, they'll probably be friends on Facebook, but they won't speak to each other on the street because they want to smile on each other and want to know what's going on in their lives, yeah. They don't actually want to have a any sort of you know real communication. So when you were saying about you know they'll they'll interact online, they don't actually, most people aren't. They they've probably got a thousand friends. Ask them, you know, what when was the last time they spoke to them in the street? They couldn't tell you.

SPEAKER_10 35:50

But I think a lot of Facebook is very performative, isn't it? Very much, you know, look at me and my family, or this is us in Portugal this week, this is us in France, you know. Yeah, and I can't I can't bear that. People that just I mean, I will never put on on Facebook when I'm on holiday or anything, so I've I just don't get why you do that. A from the fact that's precising your um you know, home is empty, and um obviously I've got a business, so you know it's favourite. That's why you live a post in real time. But yeah, so I you know, I might come out and say, Oh enjoyed, I found it interesting in Germany or whatever, but I yeah, and I and but people are constantly putting up pictures of themselves on holidays and doing oh, here we are, and pictures of food in some you know, uppercross restaurant.

SPEAKER_05 36:38

Food, that's the worst.

SPEAKER_11 36:40

I'm gonna have to defend myself on that because I do that a lot. The reason why I do that, I I my family and friends they all see it and then they comment, and every time they comment, we'll a conversation will start from it. And I don't often have anything interesting to post. And a lot of the times I will post, and at least a friend will ask, Oh, where are you? Oh, I've been there, oh I'd love I'd love to go back. Oh, there's a really nice place that you could go, and I can start loads of conversations, and the holidays is the only time that I actually have time or I'm willing to spend time on this type of little chats. So I do love to to post these little things, but for very and the other reason is I have often lose I'm probably really bad with technology, pictures and everything from my phone, but everything that I post on Facebook, I can still see ears, and I have the same Facebook for 15 years. So sometimes I have really good pictures with family. I love to post because I know in one year time it'll tell me, Oh, this is one year maybe. And I love that.

SPEAKER_09 37:44

I've got a really bad memory. I think, oh my god, I was in Japan to a lot of people. I love that. Yeah, because I would just forget. I find it does jump my memory. Sometimes I'm trying to think what I did on a certain date or something. If I got a parking ticket, I'd go on Facebook and oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:58

And it just retains the picture, it doesn't retain all the trolling comments about how bad you looked, and like, yeah. Brilliant, yeah. Agatha.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

It's a great thing what she says about how you get traction under your photos, and people actually engage in some comment and some micro conversation, if you will, because all I get is likes, and that's from people who don't even know me. And how I know they don't know me, because I'm I can't say I'm very social media savvy. So a while ago, when I started my Facebook, I put a wrong birthday. So it's it's a wrong date, and that was a typo, that was a mistake that I was a younger old, younger older. I don't remember, it's just a it's just a different uh day and month. Uh and I either didn't know how to change it, or Facebook didn't allow me to, or maybe I just couldn't care less. But people do send me wishes on that date, and it's a completely random date.

SPEAKER_11 39:02

Um it's time for you to block some people. It's time for me to block everybody.

SPEAKER_06 39:07

And and we're deviating slightly into sort of social media, but that's interesting, isn't it? People wishing you happy birthday purely because they don't know you, but and we're all to blame for that. It reminds us of when people's birthdays are yeah, I remember not to say happy birthday to you when it picks up.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Because that's not my actual birthday clive.

SPEAKER_06 39:24

When is your birthday? Oh, soon.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Quite soon.

Children Screen Time And Social Skills

SPEAKER_06 39:29

Right. What about what about youngsters? Are we worried? What about the future? Ten years' time, my 13-year-old daughter. Do you think they're gonna have that human connection? I mean, there it ramifications on relationships, on workplace. I mean, you know, all I can hope is that there's a lot less toxicity and and there's more humanness when it comes to communicating, even by text. James, you're young, aren't you? You're you're you're closer to my daughter's age than me, I think.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Yes, that's why somebody commented asking if you're my father on the uh first post for the first podcast. All right, thank I was trying not to remember that controlling comment. Or was it grandfather? I can't remember. No.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Um I I think, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

We see a lot of young people who don't like to uh pick up the phone, let alone having having an actual human interaction. And so it is it is concerning because everyone's got a phone. For you know, as soon as you're in high school, everyone's a phone, everyone's got social media. Um the access that they have and the people that have access to them is concerning. Um, but also it's also the social skills is if if you can Facebook message somebody, you just simply aren't gonna develop the same social skills as somebody who's had to have the same conversations but all in person.

SPEAKER_04 40:37

And when we're talking about the youngsters, what is um you know, when they're using a lot of the social media and uh telephones and you know screen time, uh they have no imagination anymore, you know, when because everything they they're not thinking for themselves, they're seeing everything on the screen. Like sometimes I'm trying to, I know when I'm trying to let's say get rid of my kids, I'm just giving them phones. But when I'm just trying to take them or take the phones off them and um telling them to go outside and play, they don't have imagination sometimes what to do, what to play in. When for example, me, I was just picking the leaves and I was pretending that this is money or playing in the shop or something, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Um I I'm really worried about how screens are going already. Like even um I've got family members who are ten years younger than me, so I'm I'm 30, and I see the impact already on them compared to how I can have a full-blown conversation by text. If I sit in a pub with them, I'm sort of going to like ask them a question, and I'll get yep, no, maybe, alright. There's no conversation there, and I think as phones are getting younger, and I'm not a parent, so I can't really criticise on parenting, but it terrifies me when I do see parents who have got like their three-year-old on a tablet or on a phone, and it's just like if my parents could do it, and the grandparents and so many others before, and yes, I'm talking from a place of unknowing, but it children need to be children and children need to learn the world around them, and social media for me has just sent everybody down different rabbit holes.

SPEAKER_06 42:15

I I'm just looking at this poll we did here at the Sussex and Surrey site box on the Facebook group. We did ask should children under 18 be allowed to use social media, should it be banned effectively? You know, resoundably, people have said no children shouldn't be allowed to use social media under the age of 18. I would have said 16, but um there is the threshold is pretty high.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Under 18 also means 17, which is quite odd. A 17-year-old can easily navigate uh.

SPEAKER_06 42:43

No, no, no, it's whether they should be allowed to. So should we ban it?

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Uh well, yes, they should be allowed to, and people said people said they should not, right?

SPEAKER_06 42:51

Yeah, where where would you draw the what what age?

SPEAKER_02 42:54

13, 14. I think over over that age, children should be exposed to social media, at least to some extent.

SPEAKER_06 43:03

So 153 said said yeah, allow them to use it. 333 said no. And interestingly, um 39 people said they couldn't give them monkeys. Um maybe they haven't got it.

SPEAKER_08 43:16

Uh we went out uh I mean often when I go into a restaurant, uh, and you probably notice this, Michaela, is there? You'll sit with a family around a table, and the kids have got uh iPads with these special handles and headphones on, and they're totally engaged in something on that screen, and they're completely oblivious to the fact that the family around them are having a conversation.

SPEAKER_06 43:39

There's no family time, they can't do family time.

SPEAKER_08 43:43

How do they learn to explain? How do they learn to express themselves?

SPEAKER_07 43:46

But they express themselves in text now. So if I've I've got younger, not younger children, but older teenagers, and um they will actually be around the table and they'll get up and go, B R B. Hello. Yes, and then lol. Well, you're not laughing out loud, are you? So why were you lol? But they actually speak in text now. It's it's the most bizarre thing.

SPEAKER_11 44:10

I have the the opposite as well, as you were saying. I have a table yesterday. There was two parents and the kid, and they don't want to allow the kid to have technology so early, which I thought, oh, this is great parenting. And then they were both on the phone that whole time. And the hypocrites, the kid look not the look they look sad, he looked depressed because no one was giving him attention and he had nothing to do. And I thought, if you're gonna be like that, you might as well give him something because you're not giving an example. The kid is not even listening to anything. And I think but was we growing up.

SPEAKER_06 44:49

Did you do that? Because I can imagine Michaela saying, Don't worry, I don't know.

SPEAKER_11 44:52

I thought about Brian Coloring, but I thought he's eight, he's not gonna paint anything. It's uh the Colonel is four or four to five years old. So I I've I just felt really bad. And I tried to have a little conversation with the parents, but it just like you were saying before, there's no conversation coming back from them. It's just yeah, oh yeah, great.

SPEAKER_09 45:11

Yeah, and it was why come out to meet. Yeah, why would you not want to engage? What does it say about the couple, though, doesn't it? They're just on their phones and the kids like uh just over there somewhere, very strange.

Ignore Trolls And Rebuild Dialogue

SPEAKER_06 45:22

Uh it's just not teaching kids how to communicate effectively, and especially when it comes to feelings, when they try I I think in schools they try to give it now different colours, different descriptions, so it's definitely gone a lot further in schools, and it comes back to the education episode where our school's bringing up children rather than the parents. Anyone listening to this who's thinking about being the pink spotted pineapple and trolling? Uh obviously we can't change their mind in doing that, perhaps, because some people just enjoy.

SPEAKER_08 45:52

I might give it a go later. See what response I get. You're too busy.

SPEAKER_06 45:58

But do you think we should call these people out? Do we think we we maybe there should be a phrase that everyone just starts? I don't know.

SPEAKER_09 46:04

It's like sharksy. There's always another row of idiots to sort to replace them.

SPEAKER_06 46:08

That's very true.

SPEAKER_08 46:09

Let's try that. Let's all try it this week and and and and see when we get back.

SPEAKER_06 46:14

I don't think because it just it just balloons into something more.

SPEAKER_11 46:19

It's a circle, but if they if what they're looking for is attention, I think just ignore them is the best thing we can do.

SPEAKER_06 46:26

But also, I think the Facebook group owners, you know, we chose on Sussex and Surrey Soapbox to not have anonymous posters for exactly that reason. Now there is a good place. If you've got domestic violence, there's a good reason to post anonymously, I I get it. But largely, if you do a a bit of research for it, largely anonymous posters are not very helpful. But the people that own these Facebook groups kind of like it because it feeds their algorithms, it feeds the growth.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Yeah, I I don't want the government to have control where they have to know exactly who everybody is posting stuff and if they're posting things that are uh unpleasant to all the government. So I I definitely think there is a place for anonymity on the internet, but yeah, I think it is is something where it goes down to personal responsibility where we shouldn't be posting horrible comments or unpleasant comments or any comments. So we should want to be a better human like the older generation used to be, but more modern. Just have some bloody courage. It's it's just just be able to stand by your beliefs, and if people disagree with you, so be it. It's not the end of the world. I I think that's where it has to be. It just people need to have some courage, some backbone to stand up for what they believe in.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

We all grow by learning, and we only actually learn if we speak to people of different opinions. And you mentioned it earlier about you know, is it the right or the left who are g who are commenting on me? If there's anything that I can say to if we're gonna call it camp, if I if we're gonna if I'm gonna talk to the left side, I would encourage more open debate, debate, and discourse within the left. We do all need to unite. I do think within the right, the one thing that they do do well is they have one common goal and they all work towards it, and they may disagree on other things. Us as a left are battling over all of these different issues that we can't come together on because actually what we need to do is talk, and if we can talk to each other and learn from each other, the world would be a better place.

SPEAKER_06 48:17

What's the aversion to coming around the table and and debating topics?

SPEAKER_01 48:21

I still don't understand why why people I think there's an element within lots of different people where it's like this is my point of view, and there's no point listening to X or Y because they're wrong. And there are places of people talking from a very huge sense of privilege who will not engage with the other side of the debate. And we do all need to come together, and I think the Greens should be at the table, and I'd love to see them here, and I'd love to debate them same with Lib Dem.

SPEAKER_06 48:49

Well, especially if you're a councillor, if you're a councillor, an MP, you know, surely they're in those roles to have those debates.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

I think that's the problem with with local government, especially within Surrey, where actually if you take Tandridge District, which I'm part of, there is no majority, and actually so much can't get done because the parties will not work with each other, even though a lot of the time we all want the same thing, we're just got a different idea how to get to the destination.

SPEAKER_10 49:15

Perhaps perhaps they're scared to come because they're scared they might say the wrong thing. It's recorded, it's out there, it's recorded for posterity, isn't it? Um maybe a wrong thing, you know, a reform council and whatever that might make mints meat of them, or perhaps it's a lack of confidence. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Um I can sort of understand in terms of it's you know, it will go into a certain amount of people. If you give a really good speech on something, it will go to a certain amount of people. If you give a really bad speech and you we get policy wrong, that can go to loads of people. So I do sort of get that. But unfortunately, that's politics. That will happen wherever you say it, whether it's here or whether it's on social media or whether it's in person and somebody's recording it. That that's just part of it. Yes, it's a risk, but probably if you can't stand up and and and and you know talk about it and debate it, um, then you're in the wrong gig.

SPEAKER_07 50:06

But I think that that leads back to the question of the of the day in the fact that if you get something wrong, that's gonna go more viral. Yeah, they're how you accept something correctly.

SPEAKER_10 50:15

That's what I'm that's what I mean. They're they're scared of that. Or they're probably told from their part party, don't be careful going on there, you know.

SPEAKER_06 50:22

But I think the main takeaways from this does social media reward conflict over community? I think we all agree it does. Um we can just be kind to people. Any other takeaways before we finish? I see Georgie thinking about you setting up your anonymous profile, aren't you?

SPEAKER_08 50:42

You started. Purple llama for tea. I just think that I just think the nation are a bitter and twisted bunch of people who get every opportunity that they can to twist the knife. With and I think we should just be more forgiving of other people's opinions, really.

SPEAKER_06 50:59

There we go. And if you want a little bit more of a debate and a little bit more of intellect in conversation, then come and join the Sussex and Surrey soapbox uh because we'd love to hear from you and we always share our points with respect. Agatha, did you want to make a fun? Did you put your hand up then?

SPEAKER_02 51:13

Oh right, yeah. I think it's very important to remember that there is no anonymity um online. So if it comes to the words and um somebody needs to be found out, they will be. So be very, very careful what you post online because if somebody wants to take action and they have plans to take action, they can and they will.

SPEAKER_06 51:36

Have you ever done that? I'm scared now.

SPEAKER_02 51:38

Yeah, no, not yet, Clive.

Final Warnings And How To Join

SPEAKER_06 51:42

Okay, thank you very much. That's another Sussex and Surrey soapbox conversation about um sort of hostility and community. If you like what you hear, do follow us on Spotify. Come and join the conversation on the Facebook group as well. Thank you very much, and we're back next week.

SPEAKER_05 52:00

Tell us what do you think? Leave a comment below or click on send a text. Thank you for listening to the Sussex and Surrey soapbox.