Building Homes Without Roads Schools Or GPs

Planning is meant to turn housebuilding into liveable places, but across Sussex & Surrey it often feels like we are pouring concrete first and asking awkward questions later. We sit down with Abigail Chapman-Miller (Labour), Matt Brewin (Green), James Tidy (Reform UK), Iqbal Khan and Paul Taylor-Burr to unpack why housing development planning keeps producing the same result: new estates without the shops, GP access, school places, roads, drainage and water capacity that make a community work. 

We dig into the structural problem: approvals sit with one council, roads and schools with another, health commissioning with the NHS, and water and sewage with private utility companies. That fragmentation makes “joined-up thinking” hard and accountability even harder. From Poundbury’s reputation for community-led design to frustrations around Haywards Heath, Copthorne, Oxted, Forgewood and Kilnwood Vale, we test what good development looks like in practice, including the promises that slip, the management fees residents end up paying, and how flooding and drainage decisions can come back to bite. 

We also tackle affordability head-on: what counts as a starter home, why “affordable housing” at 80% of market value still fails, and why empty homes and social housing supply matter. Then the debate widens to second homes, Airbnb-style holiday lets, immigration and the politics of demand. We finish with hope and practical routes forward, from stronger local plans and better long-term infrastructure funding to community campaigns like Save West of Ifield. 

If you live with the consequences of planning decisions, we want to hear from you. Subscribe, share the episode, leave a review, and tell us: what should be non-negotiable before a single new home gets approved?

Please click on 'Send a text' above & join our Facebook group to share your perspective and suggestions for future topics - Thank you for your interest! Clive.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Housing Hurts

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome to the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox. Real viewpoints, real opinions, and a balanced conversation on the community issues that matter.

SPEAKER_06 0:10

It's the Sussex and Surrey soapbox, and uh this week we're getting into a topic that's come up on a few episodes in the past. It's all about housing development and planning because everyone says we need more homes, but homes without roads, schools, doctors, water, community spaces. Where do we get it right and where does it go wrong? Uh this is what we're getting into this

Who We Are Around The Table

SPEAKER_06 0:32

week. And uh let's just quickly do some introductions round the table, starting with my left.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Hi, uh, my name's Abigail Chapman Miller. I'm a Labour Councillor and Vice Chair of Oxford Parish Council.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Hiya, my name is Igbar Khan, founder of Jessica's Kitchen.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

I do, I'm Paul, and I do community stuff. Hi, I'm Matt Bryan and I am the chair of Mid Sussex and Crawley Green Party.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Hi, my name is James Tidy. I'm the a Reform UK Councillor, the Leader of the Opposition on Crawley Borough Council, and the Deputy Leader of Reform UK on West Sussex County Council.

SPEAKER_06 1:03

Now,

Planning Fragmentation And No Ownership

SPEAKER_06 1:04

would we would we all agree that housing development is pretty much broken? I think on previous topics where we talked about politics generally, uh housing development came up, and I think there was a broad understanding across whatever party that there isn't enough joined up thinking. Would we all agree that it's a little broken?

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Yes, I think we all agree that yeah, it's broken. It's um what the solution is, I think, is probably where we differ.

SPEAKER_06 1:30

Yeah, so the reason it might be broken, uh I just did a little bit of research here, and uh there doesn't seem to be uh one body, one organisation, one collective that helps navigate across these different areas. So if we look at housing approvals, that's district and borough councils, apparently. Roads, that's more county council and national highways, schools, that's county council. Uh and then NHS around GP provisions, uh, water and sewage, that's all around private utility companies, uh, bus services, that's operators and councils, housing targets, that's central government dropping that down. So none of this is set up for success,

Unitary Authorities Promise Or Problem

SPEAKER_06 2:12

it would seem. Now, some would argue that unitary authorities, all of that shenanigans we're about to go through with rearranging, some might say the deck chairs, um, that's gonna help this. James, do you think unitary authorities will be part of the answer?

SPEAKER_02 2:26

If you're part of a council that's run up a lot of debt, then no longer having that debt and being part of a wider unitary, then it will be a solution for you. Is it is it a solution for local residents? No. I think we need to keep the old um councils um as they are, representing representing the people they represent, um, and having accountability directly in their areas rather than shifting it away and having local councillors that can just push blame onto uh a wider authority.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Matt, uh unitary authorities. I was gonna say I would uh one time uh agree. Um I think yeah, we need to keep it local. People know their local councillors, say your district councillors, and they know who to go through. Um it just builds up the workload of a councillor. If it goes to unitary, you've just got more work to do.

SPEAKER_06 3:11

And so is unitary going in the wrong direction, or is it just irrelevant that's not to do with this?

SPEAKER_03 3:16

I think it's the wrong decision to be heading towards right now. It's it's not making the system any easier.

SPEAKER_06 3:22

So that's reform, that's green. Both agree unitary authorities are the wrong path that we're currently on. Labour, Abigail.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Well, obviously, um I do agree with unitary authorities.

SPEAKER_06 3:34

I think Is that because you're Labour that you agree or because Abigail agrees?

SPEAKER_00 3:38

I think I think there's issues with unitary authorities in the way that we have rushed straight to them in a variety of councils. Some councils were not ready to go to unitary authority.

SPEAKER_06 3:53

Well, you're in Surrey, you're slightly ahead of things. We are in Sussex is a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Typically, they decided to disagree when it did come around. But the idea actually is to be able to give councils more power to be able to do this joined up thinking.

SPEAKER_06 4:22

Well, that's what I was thinking. Unitary authority, it would on the label suggest that it might help with this. But um, we've heard the other side of the debate that it wouldn't.

Starter Homes Social Rent And Reality

SPEAKER_06 4:32

Anyway, let's get back to the topic then of housing development planning. Would you agree it's broken?

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yes, I I think I think we've got a housing crisis. I think there are there are too many people who can't afford to move out, buy a home, even rent a home, and we've got to find a way to solve that solution. And I think there does need to be a lot more joined up thinking, and I do think, yes, of course, we need more infrastructure. Some of my counter-argument for that, so I sit on the planning committee for um our parish council and actually have voted against several planning uh applications, which you probably wouldn't think for a Labour councillor, but because they haven't been right. On the flip side, what we're building is wrong. What we really need to actually build is real starter homes, real social housing, and real affordable rent homes. And then the argument of infrastructure slightly goes away because the people are already in those areas using them. They're staying at home with mum or dad or Anna and Grandad and just haven't been able to move out. So I think I am very against what happens a lot where I am in Oxygen, Surrey, is starter home developments setting up and they're like £800,000, and I'm like, it's not it's not my starter home.

SPEAKER_06 5:54

It's tough on youngsters, and um you know, when we look at this, I mean we do try to have a positive slot and some positive takeaways and some happiness around this, but um can you think of any housing developments where it's gone pretty well? And

Case Studies Poundbury Forgewood Kilnwood

SPEAKER_06 6:08

in fact, that uh that's a good shining example. Not where I live, no. Anyone else around the table?

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Uh I I can I can. I I think Poundbury is a shining example. Poundbury in Dorset. So this is a place that um King Charles, when he was the Prince of Wales, has heavily been involved with. They've had a real intention on community, on living standards. Um they've managed to provide many more jobs than they expected because people stay in the local area, that's a really pleasant place to be. And they've really focused on that. They've focused on it not just being completely car-centric. Um that's a good example. It's a fantastic example. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 6:43

What about Forgewood?

SPEAKER_02 6:45

For for Forgewood, I mean, obviously you you do have to build build homes, but they uh everyone's been promised that within a year there'll be um there'll be some shops and there'll be a doctor's surgery, and they're promised that from when it um uh well when it was first built and it still hasn't materialised. So f Forgewood hasn't really had the had um well.

SPEAKER_06 7:03

And is there any pressure that you can put? So as a councillor, have you got any powers and any influence to help push that?

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Um and we we can put pressures on uh the the influence we have in opposition is also gonna be very limited. There's been a lot of mistakes with Forgewood. Um the the county council had the roads controlled by a management company, which means people are paying ridiculously high council tax already, and now they're paying hundreds of pounds a year extra on management fees, which should really be under the under the council. So they're effectively paying two lots of council tax because the council at the time decided it that it was easier for them to not manage the roads.

SPEAKER_06 7:42

And another example that's cited here as being uh one that's a little bit more joined up in thinking is Kilnwood Vale between Crawley and Horsham. Would we agree with that? It's 2,500 homes, school shops, parkland, sports facilities.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

So I've been living there since it first opened. There's about 20 houses. First thing let me say, I love Kimwoodvale, the community is amazing. The school, we know everybody because we've been there from the beginning. Obviously, they have been promising us shops.

SPEAKER_06 8:17

What's missing at the moment? Shops.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

That's the only thing So there's no shops, no shop, but now we have uh a bus that runs directly. The number 10 bus, the 200 bus and the 23 bus. Uh the 10 and the 200, they take you straight to Gatwick and they run pretty regularly. But you got doctors? Well, Bubish. I mean, but but uh but at the same time.

SPEAKER_06 8:36

So not Kilmwood Valley, you're not not working in the estate, 2,500 homes there. What what did it come with? You got 2,500 homes?

SPEAKER_04 8:43

With the homes, I guess, in the park, and then the school came. Oh, so you got a school there? We don't have a doctor's at the moment, we don't have a shop, but at the same time, uh Bubish is just there.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

You do you do have access to that doctor's, but you are in Horsham, and what Horsham is doing is they're building on the side of Crawley um and burdening all the things that people need, like doctors, which cost you know people money.

SPEAKER_04 9:07

Sorry, I just want to add it with the Yeah, no, no, I want to I just want to say, sorry, uh sorry uh before that we did live in Bubish. Yeah, so we've always been at that doctor. So for us, it is yeah, you're you're absolutely right. I'm just saying uh it was just a convenience thing, our dentist is there, the doctors are still there. But I understand.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Yeah, I don't think I agree. The people the people, and this is the same with the Ifield West development, um, or the the West Firefield development, um, is I don't blame the residents for going to their local doctors. They shouldn't just go, I'm gonna go to a doctor's that's further away. The issue is is they're building it intentionally on the side of Crawley, so we're burdened. We have to take all their waste, which we just do not have the capacity to do, and we have to take their um all the issues that they they might might create come to Crawley. Um the plan with the West of Ifield is that they're gonna build a road direct into Crawley, causing a lot more congestion. And so the the key point is they're collecting the council tax, but all the services they need is at the cost of the crawley taxpayer.

SPEAKER_06 10:03

Okay, so that's the point, right? All of the council taxes go into Horsham, and yet all of the services are provided by Crawley.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Yeah, more or less. More or less. So that's the issue, and then they they've got far more land than we do. We're in a very small area.

SPEAKER_06 10:17

So saying here, this is one of the shining examples, out of ten, what would we score? Kilwood Vale.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Um for for me, that's gonna be near the bottom. I mean, they've built houses, but as a housing developer, that should be that should be the bare minimum.

SPEAKER_06 10:30

Not to ten, what would you score it?

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Um I'd score at three.

SPEAKER_06 10:33

Just to be clear, the score is for the town planners. How good have they been?

SPEAKER_04 10:37

They've been rubbish. So, what score would you give them out of ten? Oh, the planners? So this is not Kinwood Vale, we're talking about Bowser. It's about housing development, housing planning. So now we need to be specific about the people who build the homes, which was Bovis and someone Nicholson or something like that. And uh so if you look at them as a whole, they they they they're a business, aren't they? They're here to just throw them up and move on to the next one. They're doing building sites all over the UK. I've seen them everywhere. Four.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Okay. Two, two, two. They've let down the residents with no doctor surgery. They were promised a doctor's surgery and they never got it. It was turned into a leisure surreal. And this is Kilmwood Vale as well. Yeah. It was turned into a leisure centre, which only certain people can use, not the whole of Kilmwood Vale. Can't use that, sir, can't use that leisure area. Only those that are surrounding it can use it. The they were promised 35% social and affordable housing, that dropped down to seven. Uh, they were promised special drainage systems called suds, which the developer then didn't put in because it would be too expensive, hence all the flooding. Um the promises that the developers made in their because when they when they do the housing plan, they have to say what they're gonna do. So they say, We're gonna give you 20% more biodiversity, we're gonna do this, do that, and do the other. But there's actually no legal requirement for them then to fulfil those promises. So they can cut back on all of those. So if the birds are.

SPEAKER_06 12:02

So this is when they put the original plan in with all the lovely pictures. All the lovely pictures and we can hear the birds singing in the background here. They're they're supporting you, Paul, in this.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Foxes roaming gently, men with shotguns shooting pheasants, that kind of thing. It all looks good on paper. And then in reality, in reality, as costs went up, they started making cutbacks. The reason why there's no doctor surgery, and they were told this before they were building it, the same as in Forgewood, is that the NHS cannot supply the staffing levels that would be needed to run a doctor's surgery.

SPEAKER_06 12:32

And this came up on research that that that to build a doctor's surgery, relatively easy to fill it with NHS staff, more difficult.

GP Surgeries Permission Profit Staffing

SPEAKER_01 12:39

A lot more difficult because they're they're they're leaving in drones.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

I just wanted to jump in on you saying it's relatively easy to set up a doctor's surgery, it's not. Okay. Um so actually, if you want to set up a GP surgery, you've got to get permission from the NHS. And the NHS will look at your population quota where the nearest GP surgery is. Because what people actually forget is all GP surgeries are private and are then paid by the NHS to staff the doctors. So the NHS can only do it if there's not a competing GP surgery.

SPEAKER_06 13:12

And we've seen how great that works when they get paid to do COVID jabs, all of a sudden they're open at the weekends and and and able to support that, right? When it comes to getting a normal doctor's appointment, it's probably less profitable.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Part of that is it's a lot easier to train somebody to give somebody a vaccine than it is to be a doctor. The flip side of it is stuff that has been happening, is looking at actually removing the ICBs, which is your integrated care board, and hopefully part of the unitary is that that decision can then be made at unitary level. At the moment, it's being made by the Department of Health, who probably don't know where Kilmwood Rail is.

SPEAKER_06 13:53

So hopefully with unitary authorities, doctor surgeries in this sort of situation, these estates will get easier to decide.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

It actually is being made more locally from a health commissioning point of view. Um, the argument against unitary is obviously that you're losing borough or districts.

SPEAKER_06 14:13

So it's sort of a bit of a give and take on and we've got an aging population, so it it's probably going to get worse. With schools,

Schools Flood Risk And Local Places

SPEAKER_06 14:20

it's slightly different. What we've found in research is some areas have actually got capacity and got placements for people, and in other areas not so. Yeah, so it's more of a question have we got schools in the right locations with the capacity? And of course, kids are having to not go to their preferred school.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

With the rest of Eyefield development, they want to put a school in an area of the Ifield Gulf Course, which is um regularly flooded and under three or four inches of water approximately seven months of the year. And they want to put a school there.

SPEAKER_06 14:50

Oh, they'd be good at swimming.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

That'd be all they could do.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Uh exact exactly. And the the the other issue is, I mean, in terms of Forge Wood, which is obviously in my ward, um the local residents of Forge Wood can't get spaces there. And they want to walk their kids to school, and they they well at school time all they see is a load of cars coming driving into Forge Wood. And so you're not having local school places for local people.

SPEAKER_06 15:12

So where did Forge Wood go wrong? I mean, if you were around an in power, not in opposition, what could you have done to help?

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Uh if if it was up to me, I mean, I think you'd focus far more on community. Um, you you need the shops and you you need more of a school. Obviously, that does come at the uh come at a cost, and developers do have to make money. Um, and that then um as much as I'm not a huge fan of them, they aren't making the money they used to make. So And the community centre? The community there is a community centre. The the issue the issue with that, and and this is this is what one thing that should have been addressed, is the community centre pretty much all community centres in Crawley are owned by the council and run by the council. Now the community centre in Forgewood is technically owned by the residents, which is a nice way of saying you're paying for it. Um so whilst everyone else pays for those things in council tax, which I think it's fair that you know local residents pay for that, they're paying for everyone else's community centres and everyone else's roads, as I said, but they're also having to pay a separate fee for their own community centre, which nobody else is paying for.

SPEAKER_06 16:08

Unless it's a charity, Brawlfield Community Centre is a charity run, uh it's a lovely community centre.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Yeah, but the the the the issue is that people are paying twice for for the services that everyone else is paying once for.

SPEAKER_06 16:18

Matt, you've been very quiet here. You live slightly south of the region, down in Burgess Hill, Hayward's Heath kind of area. What have you noticed there? Does this ring true from what you've observed?

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Yeah, it's very similar down our direction as well. You've got housing estates sort of popping up. Um and I think you've touched on it briefly. We've got an aging population. If you look at the census data, we have got more people living longer in the areas and not moving out of their sort of million pound houses and things, and uh people are coming in and buying second, third homes. Uh but I think as we've said, I I would never be able to buy around here on a teacher wage. It's isn't it's impossible. And it's driving people away to look elsewhere. So services are becoming more strained. So your doctors, your dentists are all becoming strained because of this aging population that we've got, and people my age don't or can't as much as we want to stay around in the area, we we we can't do it. I think it's what we've touched on as well is uh where they're building. I think sometimes there's not enough looking into where the building developments are gonna happen. So there's one down the road from me in Hebertif um on the Sogware farm development. Now it floods all down the back. And when they did the previous development just across the road from the one they want to do now, it is already making flooding happening in Hebertif, which has never had it. People's like garages are filling with water and things. So the system uh isn't working, but I think there's a lot that needs to be looked into how we do it, because I think a lot of it is profit going maybe to developers than it is for the the means of the people who want to buy these houses.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Um if I if I may touch on I mean, uh obviously, you know, it it's sort of fashionable to to to bash people with second homes, um but it's a very small amount of uh amount of people. My my father's once in a situation where um to not be divorced was costing £300 a month um in uh well sorry would have cost him £300 a month in uh extra council tax um if if if they'd kept things as they were because because because he had a second home, which seemed which is a bizarre situation where he could save money by getting a divorce, um despite still being happily married. Um so so I I I I don't think the current way of of trying to penalise people's second homes is um the best way. I mean if we look at it more broadly, why do we need more housing? And when we've you know, uh it's it's gonna be you might go, this is a typical reform thing to say, but when people come into so if somebody comes into Crawley, whether they come from any country, America, India, China, or whether they've come from Burger, so whatever, they have to be housed. And we're a very small, we're a very small area, and we've got to build housing, and there are limits on how much we can build. When when the original town plan went out, it was they said it'll never exceed 120,000 people. Now we've exceeded that. So we've got to look at supply and demand, and the more demand, the more pressure there is, and there is not an unlimited supply.

SPEAKER_06 19:23

There's definitely something around profits, and where we're sat this evening, it's a lovely evening in Copthorne. Let me tell you, that house over there is for sale, it's empty at the moment, but the owner is paying council tax, to your point, James, on this house, and he's now moved down to Dorset. If we think in the field over there, they're gonna build some houses. Yeah, I'm all up for new houses, no problem, because we need more houses, and to your point, Abby, it needs to be a mixture of affordable houses, yeah. Plus, and those beautiful plans, as you were saying, Paul, you know, with the school, with the doctors and everything and all the promises made. That needs to be a realism. But

Water Pressure And Utility Accountability

SPEAKER_06 20:00

I worry about water. You know, we we only had the host pipe ban lifted literally Christmas time, yeah. Uh, and I can feel it's coming back, you know. After this hot spell, I can feel it's coming, but we've already had a warning, oh, be careful how you use your water. Yet they're gonna build a few hundred houses over there, there's gonna be another few hundred over there. I don't think there's enough water pressure.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

No, you no, you're absolutely right. The issue with water is more uh government, so we've got fewer reservoirs than we used to do, and obviously a lot more homes. So we need to start building reservoirs um and not getting rid of them because people do need water, and if we keep you know decreasing the amount of reservoirs, we we're going to struggle with Well also is a question about who runs the utility company.

SPEAKER_06 20:38

Southeast water has been a bit of a bugbear of mine, and uh, you know, some people have made the right decision in stepping down, I would say, with that my personal opinion. But don't you think there's something around who runs these organisations?

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah, I mean I I vehemently believe in free markets, but something like water you can't have free markets on because you don't have a choice. If if you could choose between ten different people saying we'll provide you water, we'll give you this service, you pay this amount of money, it would be fair for that to be um a free market. But it isn't. You are told what you should do and then told what service you should expect. And that there's it's it's not fair, it's not free. Um so so yeah, I think the way it's the way it's run currently is awesome.

SPEAKER_06 21:19

And maybe this is a topic for future energy uh and utilities because you know prices have just gone up when we think about gas and electric as well, thanks to the cat. But anyway, I think that's a future topic before we get into that.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Uh

Empty Homes And Real Affordability

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Paul? Yeah, there is another topic here. The amount of empty homes there are nationwide. There are over a million empty properties in England, just England, not including Wales or Scotland. In Crawley, there's 1,210 empty properties, an increase of 174 on just a year ago. Now PAC the the councils need stronger powers to be able to get those houses back into circulation. Some of them are tied up in lengthy probate things, but some of them are. Council houses or rented accommodation or even second homes that are just been laying dormant for months and months and months. Council's given stronger powers to be able to do like a compulsive repurchase order to give those houses back into the system and back online. That will reduce quite a few of the waiting lists because there's quite a few like detached houses. And when you look at like housing costs, we say affordable housing, but that's 80% of the market value in your area. So in Crawley, that would be for a three-bedroom terraced house, the average price is £331,000. That means you're gonna be paying roughly like £260,000 plus for a house. I don't know that many 20 plus, 20, 20, 30 year olds that have got that kind of money for a deposit, which will cost you literally 40,000, you're a decent deposit. So when you say affordable housing, it actually needs to be social housing, not just affordable, because affordable makes it sound like it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_06 22:55

And this has come up on previous episodes, social housing being sold off by councils potentially, and that being an issue. I think it came up on the homelessness um uh conversation we have with Crawley Openhouse and turning tides. Definitely social housing um has been problematic. Um but when it is in place, it makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

It can do, it makes a huge difference. It gives people cheaper rents, which means they have more money to spend. So again, the economy takes a boost. Um if they've got more disposable income, they may do more leisure activities, they might be able to afford to go to the gym, which will cut down on the health impact. And yeah, there's there's there's so many things that could happen with decent, affordable, proper, affordable housing, not just 80% of the market value.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

I I I I agree with the sentiment. I mean, obviously, Crawley's my area, and it's very, very, very limited. I mean, we're we're 2% of the land mass of West Sussex, and a lot of that is taken up um by things like like uh business parks. Um so we we do have a limit on space and and a very strict one. Um but but also in terms of building houses, I mean it sounds great, but there's no magic money tree. We have to be sensible. We have to go, why are house prices so high? Because we can't just build everyone houses, as much as that would be nice to do. Unfortunately, there isn't the money to do these things. Um so we we've got to go, right, why is the demand so high?

Supply Demand Immigration And Blame

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Um and if we're artificially creating that by importing people from other countries, then Do you know that the percentage in crawl people that own the houses, 90% are white are British nationals?

SPEAKER_02 24:28

But the 90% of British nationals are but it's not about owning immigration. And immigrants can't even have housing for twelve months. But people They have to get a section 95 before they even think of housing. But the point is is but you don't think you're using immigration again. Do you don't think that immigration causes a strain on the housing supply?

SPEAKER_01 24:44

No, because it's not been proven.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

It's not been proven. So when when uh nearly a million people came into this country in a year, that didn't cause any strain on the housing supply.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

I think you'll find they were mostly housed by from Ukrainians, wasn't it not, that you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Um so but so you you so so do you think about who you're saying they're coming in. Well well the point is do you think they cause about those? And where do they move in? Okay, and where do they move out afterwards? Most of them went back home. So they've gone back home to a lovely safe Ukraine, that's good. Um that's that's quite a I'm sure they had a nice time there. Well, but do you think do you think that's what we're saying here? So this point here is Australia on the housing supply. That that's it.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Ross calls Australia on the housing supplies, a not having enough proper housing, b selling off all the houses that were once council houses.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

But people want to own their own homes.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

And this allows them. And when you have an area where it's predominantly there's there's not the the the the amount of housing you need to increase the housing supply where people get the opportunity to live in their own homes, which was a huge, huge boost for people that were struggling, and people they could really own their own home, and it's a massive thing for these people. Um and they looked after them, they were very proud of it. And I I think the people that they benefited were people that perhaps weren't doing so well. Um the the point is is I mean, for me, it's supply and demand.

SPEAKER_06 25:57

And if it's but also beyond beyond supply and demand, because im immigration you're saying has caused stress there. Yeah. You're saying people would like to own their own homes. I think we'd all agree with that. Everyone likes the idea of owning their own home, but the pathway of being get to to get to that position feels unreachable.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

It but that's because of house prices, and it's it's if if you had a million people come here from France, let's say, um, or that's probably not a good example because people do come here from France. Um let let's say America, okay, that will cause strain on housing supply. If we had uh 10,000 people from America turn up in Crawley, that would cause strain on the housing supply. It is supply and demand. Where do you propose, unless you want to bulldoze all the green land, we put these houses?

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Well, there's plenty of brown sites that can be built on first in Crawley properties of 1,210 acres of properties.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Ban second homes, is that is that a plan?

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Second homes is not a good thing. Research and statistics have shown that people with second homes actually slow down the market, they infl they they they inflate the prices. So you're a fan of second homes, James?

SPEAKER_02 27:04

I I think if you don't know why, of course, but I don't I don't know why why, you know, if you've got a family home and you want to keep it in the family, but somebody else says no you can't. I don't see why the state should be but it's a supply and demand, right? So you said one of the things. No, a family home could be a second home. So let's say so. I grew up in a three-bedroom house, there were six of us, right? We could have gone and bought the well one one idea was to buy the house next to us and knock through, and we would have two technically two homes, but it'd be one house. Now we didn't, but we we had two homes, okay. Now, what what what difference does it make?

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Because you're not living in the other home full time, it's an empty property, but it could be used for the city.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

You could say the same about spare bedrooms, couldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Not really, because that's inside one house, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Well, no, because you could only have a spare bedroom in someone else's spare bedroom in your property. No, but your point stands that if it's a retired couple living in a three-bedroom house and it's only those two, you could increase council tax to penalise them to to to encourage them to move to a one-bedroom flat. That's the same principle and a far more effective one, which I disagree with.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

That some some councils do actually do that. They will actually wrong, which I think.

SPEAKER_04 28:18

I do not want to live in a world where the the government dictates to me how many homes I can own. I'm not saying I can't afford one, let alone two. I'm just saying. You're agreeing with James again. What are you talking about? You can tell me that I can't own two homes. Yeah, well, like what are you doing? I kind of agree with Paul, right?

SPEAKER_06 28:40

If you've got a country, it's a little castro to me, mate. No, but imagine a country where we all had a second home. Imagine you had a second home, I had a second home. Everyone does. No, but just imagine, right? We've all got two homes. We can only live in one place, right? I think Paul's point is if you have a house here and you have one in Somerset. No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about empty, empty properties that are just owned by and yet there's not enough housing to go around everyone that lives here.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Now, yes, immigration might stress that, but Abby, help us out because we're the thing is I I I agree with James on the fact that I I don't want to go down the road where we dictate how many homes are.

SPEAKER_06 29:21

So you think we should be allowed to have a second home?

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Yes, because I don't I don't think that that is the issue that is causing the housing crisis. You've got you've got two in my eyes, you've you've got two. Um one is actually Thatcher's sort of implementation of right to buy and the promise that for every council household that another one would be built. That never happened, and right to buy is still going on to this day. So we are selling off our council house stock for those who need social housing. The second bit is the inaccessibility to buy your home, which is if I look at my grandparents, right? My granddad bought his first home uh when he was in his 20s with his wife on a £3,000 salary, his house was £10,000, he won't like me saying it. It's recently been valued as now £1.4 million. So the the percentages of the salary I would have to be on to now buy his home is completely different to what he was on when he bought it. So there is a real inaccessibility around buying homes. It's the same with renting. I rent with with my wife, we have a really steady income, but we struggle, and I'll admit I live in one of the more expensive areas of Surrey just because that's where I'm born and I don't want to move. But you know, our last property we were paying £1,400 a month for a one-bed bungalow, you know, and that's without bills. So our monthly expenditure was over two grand, and that's not accessible for a lot of people. I look at my cousins who are younger, who and no disrespect to them at all, but who are in more lower-paying jobs, they are working in supermarkets and they are working as TAs in schools, they're not going to be able to afford to rent, let alone.

SPEAKER_06 31:12

And and and and this is very prevalent about the cost of living, the squeeze, uh, and you know, I don't think my issues or their issues or anybody's issues going to be solved by somebody owning a second home. But it takes away it takes away that property from a wider market to be used by someone. I guess is Paul's.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

It's just limited resource.

SPEAKER_06 31:41

How how do we deal with limited resource and share it around, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 31:45

We we have to look we have to look at building um both affordable and social homes. And when I say affordable homes, I don't mean it in the terminology that's used now. How do you mean it? I mean truly sort of first-time homes for people who are moving out with a LinkedIn area. I saw it a few years ago that actually Red Hill did it where they were selling one-bed flats um to individuals under the age of 35 with who had lived in the area for more than five years for £100,000. Okay. Um and that scheme obviously was really, really successful. And I think we should have more of them, which do then take away the fact that, well, those people are already in the area, they're using the services, so they can get on the housing ladder. So when they want to start a family or want a bigger place, they can then sell that place and move on. And there's I believe there's a clause that it has to somebody else can't come and buy that with a mansion down the street, it's they're locked for people within the house.

SPEAKER_06 32:46

And and and and that sounds like a great sensible idea. Matt, would would Green support such an idea?

SPEAKER_03 32:53

I think we need to look at housing fully um like from my stance and not Green but myself. It's it's shocking. We've become especially right. I mean Haver Teeth. We're a commuter town, you know, you can jump on the train, you can get out to London to work, you you see it every morning, I drive straight past it to get to school.

Second Homes And Airbnb Community Impacts

SPEAKER_03 33:15

And that's sort of slowly what it's become. But but then when I look at the flip side of in the northeast, my family live in County Durham, people are going back to the second home type thing, but people are buying houses up there and turning them into Airbnbs. Now I know where my parents live in the Weird Elf, but they're becoming increasingly more frustrated because all they're seeing is Airbnbs, these second homes that are owned turned into Airbnbs just all the way up the dales, and people are coming in, and we could go back to the community of like what we were saying earlier, community. You live in those areas, you want to build a community. They're destroying that community feel because you know you're getting different people coming to these Airbnbs, right? Well, who's profiting from that? It's the person that owes the second home. They don't care. That's not their home. They live in wherever they live, maybe in London, maybe wherever. They're getting the profit, they're enjoying their community, but they've shoved their sort of moneymaker somewhere else, which is kind of upsetting communities.

SPEAKER_06 34:14

Um so you can change the fabric of a community if they're all right.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Yeah, if it it's it's changed, and what used to be like it's a old mining sort of little towns and villages going up the Weirdale have all been changed into now Airbnbs by second owners. Nobody knows who these owners are. My house the house next to my parents was a church been owned, bought by a developer. It's going to be turned into an Airbnb. And it's they've never met them. They don't know who these people are. So it is kind of destroying that community because the community does come together and they do look at it and go, We don't know whether it's Tom Dick or Harry moving in there. You know, it might be rented out, and then we'll get to know the tenants when they do move in and they become part of the community, but it's those that are, it's not the people that are profiting from that house. He makes a good point, doesn't he, James?

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Um so so when we look at this, we've got to look at the root cause. Why are people going into holiday lets rather than renting their property out through the uh private private rented sector? And it's just too due to over-regulation. Um the rental sector used to be f full of local people buying a house or perhaps moving house and keeping hold of their old one and renting it out, and they'd go around and they'd fix it up themselves, and then they'd you know they'd make money um through investments, um, and that that being one of them, and spend it in the local shops. Um now it's it's not like that, and there's no money in being a landlord, and so we've seen a complete collapse, and so people are going, right, I've got a mortgage to pay, I'll have to put it into a holiday let. Um, and they they've really got no choice but to do that. I mean, having a holiday let with short-term, with short-term tenants who might be only there for a week is a lot more faft than dealing with people who are there long term. Um, so these people are often forced into those positions. But I But not not always though, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:08

Some people are choosing to do it for some thinking.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Yeah, yeah, obviously in some areas, but I suspect probably in Durham that that's gonna be more of the case.

SPEAKER_06 36:15

So I'm I'm feeling quite gloomy about

Fixes Local Plans And New Towns

SPEAKER_06 36:18

this. Uh, housing development planning around Sussex and Surrey. Is there any cause to hope? Is there a simple fix? It sounds complex, it sounds difficult, but how how is this gonna get better? What what is the solution? What's the biggest one, would you say, Matt, first?

SPEAKER_03 36:34

You can kind of the worry still at the minute is the change into going back to unitary authority is how is this all gonna work? Because different areas have different ways of doing things. Currently in Mid Sussex they don't have a district plan, which sorts out the whole planning for building and stuff. So developers are coming in going, yeah, I want to build on there, I want to build on there, because they can't because there is no district plan set in place. Um but when we go to unitual authority, it's then who's gonna own certain things? So Mid-Sussex, our housing is built, well, is ran our council housing, sorry, is ran by uh housing associations, so uh Clarion, uh Moat, Southern, people like that. Crawley, Crawley majority is ran by Crawley Council. Um how is that all gonna work? I think this is the thing I think that's gonna worry people.

SPEAKER_06 37:23

It's so unitary authorities could make it slightly messier for a period of time. Yeah, and Abigail would hope that it gets easier after we get through that murky period.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Yeah, I there's there's gonna be a murky period, and when I say like I agree with unitary or authorities, I I do in in principle, and I I might yes, there is the fear that not all unitary authorities are gonna be as good as another. When it comes to housing, not only are you devolving the powers of inf infrastructure, but at the moment your your quota of housing is given to you by the Department of Housing, right? So at the moment the Secretary of State for Housing is saying you need to put X amount of houses in in Surrey or Sussex, and again, probably doesn't come here very often, I would imagine. So it's it's that flip of being able to put it down to unitary and say, look, yes, you've got to build this percentage, but that unitary authority can choose where those houses are.

SPEAKER_06 38:22

The quota doesn't work, does it that top down? We we we we we we spoke about it a couple of weeks ago when we think about education hitting these stats, hitting these quota from above.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

No, that doesn't work, which is the whole hope of the unitary authority, then is it? But there's more devolved that it is uh a lot more localised than it coming from uh you know whatever department in government or or cabinet. So it's I do think it's localised.

SPEAKER_06 38:48

And they'd have the power, they'd have the power to make sure there's joined up thinking and also the accountability for when it goes wrong, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 38:55

That is the plan. There is obviously the fear.

SPEAKER_06 38:57

What worries me when you say that is the plan.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

The reason I say that is because Do you don't believe in it? No, the fear I have with unitary authorities is obviously it's politicised. So your your councils really are run by political parties and depending where you sit politically will depend how how you view your unitary authority. So like in so both surrees have gone gone Liberal Democrats over the the border in Kent, you know, they're currently run by by reform. I'm sure those two councils are gonna look quite different from each other. So that's the issue with the party politics, and that's my only real big fear of unitary, is obviously every four or five years you are risking a completely different party political change.

SPEAKER_06 39:45

Now we might be alright in Surrey because um it's fairly so you mean there could be U-turns, so you get four or five years going in run direction at that, and a lot of this takes many years, decades to create communities.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Big big issue, and obviously we're you know we're not a two-party system anymore, so it could change even more.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

We're not two-party, are we, James? Uh no, we're not. Uh um so I mean, yeah, there are a lot of issues the way it currently is. Um so, for example, the uh West of If the Fundament, which I believe we're all against, um, which which goes to show you that there's a lot of people here who don't agree with on many things, but we all know it's a terrible idea. That is um uh it comes from Homes England and the master plan is 10,000 houses, the initial plan 3,000. Now, if the Labour government wants to say no, this is a Homes England is run by the government, they could say let's stop this, but they won't. And then they're deciding that they've said let's build baby build, so you know, let's just build. It doesn't matter what the people of Crawley think. Um the issue, and I think Matt touched on this, is um with with local residents, is if Crawley, for example, is um obviously most councillors in a unitary won't be from the town that some are. So most people on a unitary won't be from Crawley, and they're all voting on things that uh will affect Crawley. So you really want to have that local power and that local consideration from people who actually live in the town, not people who might live an hour and a half away who say who who think, well, it's either they build in Crawley or they build in my ward, so I'm gonna vote to put them all in one area.

SPEAKER_06 41:21

But on that first example, and now obviously a seat at Crawley Borough Council and also seats at um West Sussex County Council. Are you gonna do your part in changing the decision or influencing it? Is it too late already?

SPEAKER_02 41:36

Um for for West of Ifield. I mean, we'll do whatever we can. Um, but is it too late? Yes. I mean, unfortunately the government has more power than uh than we do. Um so we're extremely limited what we can do, but we we we completely oppose it. Um so in any way we can help, we will.

SPEAKER_06 41:54

Um and everyone around the table agrees with that, do they? It's another car crash waiting to happen. Yeah, I think without a doubt.

SPEAKER_03 42:02

Yeah, it's it's just and going pitely onto the West of Ifield development. You can try and do as much as you can from in Crawley, but it's Horsham. You've got to try and persuade Horsham. Now, obviously, in Crawley it's a Labour-ran council. Now you've got to try and appease the Lib Dems in Horsham to say please don't build on that ground there. But you're not gonna agree, and it's kind of going back to the unitary, it is exactly what James said is you've got people from such a wide area. Now I don't want the decisions in mid-Sussex, where I live, decided by someone down in Chichester. But ultimately, as well, thinking about it, you've got to think we've got Sussex mayor election coming as well. Now they will kind of have overriding power, so they'll have even more. So the worry is why is it then down to one person and where they're from? They can decide, yeah, I don't like that, I'm gonna stop it. You know, it's it is party politics and it is worry, it's not about the residents and what people want, which is why I think the system works how we've got it now, because you are local to your area, you know the issues that people have, and you are working for them to make it better, not working in a because in a party politic political way and going, Oh well, my mate down in Chichester voted that way, so I'm gonna stick with them. But no, you're voting the way you want to because it affects the people on your doorstep.

Save West Of Ifield Pushback

SPEAKER_06 43:25

Come on, let's finish up with some positive takeaways. Uh who wants to go first with some positives on this? Because uh we've got ourselves into a bit of a dark cold de sack, literally.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Well, I think as a positive is being part of the committee of Safe West of Ifield. We've been fighting for the last no quite a few years to stop Homes England building on the golf course and extending it to ten thousand units. People seem to think ten thousand units that's not a lot, but then you've got to multiply that by the average of two point four people. So that's twenty four thousand people that are gonna be moving in toward the outskirts of Crawley, plus the average of one point. point three cars so that's an extra thirteen thousand cars going onto the roads. So you've already been trying to push back on that quite well. Yeah we've been doing that we've been um part of the Savewest of Ifield for for five six years. So we've been to Holmes England that's a story in itself.

SPEAKER_06 44:18

And what's the argument back?

SPEAKER_01 44:19

They must have looked we hear your points uh they're all very good but they're doing anyway because we're every every argument they they have we have a counter one so like um it's not just about the nature it's not just about the the rare species the flowers the fauna the the backstream bats the special snails the beetles all that kind of stuff it's also about the fact that even on Homes England website they are advertising Crawley as being the bee on an end all now as Ickbel said you can use pubish doctor surgery that's what they're that's what they're saying on Homes England but that is already over eight times subscribed to what it should be if you've got another 20 odd thousand people all coming into Crawley that's that's your surgery's that's just if you think it's bad now it's just gonna be horrendous. But the people on Safewester Byefield will be fine it every inch of the way and every step of the way but how can common sense be so absent from money and and plain stubbornness and ignoranimuses who've got themselves so entrenched into this is going to happen that they're now unable to back out and say actually do you know what six boreholes down by Fay Gate isn't really going to stop the flooding so maybe we should think about not building.

SPEAKER_06 45:42

They won't say that because they they they're so far down this rabbit hole that they can't now turn back and say we can't this is going to be this is going to be one to watch and and your positive takeaway on that is that you are pushing back you are representing that view.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Any other positive takeaways from this unitary authority you might say Abby Yeah but I also think just coming off of of your point and you know I I sit on a planning committee right at parish level so we we are really the the lowest rung of the ladder if you want to talk about pecking order of counsellors but there are lots of people out there who are really fighting for local areas and I think this is where I really advocate local plans and I there are a couple of areas in in It Sorry that didn't get the local plan in place in time for the unitary and it's like that that's just sort of gold dust. But I do I do think that I completely get why unitary looks and feels scary um and unitary elections across the country have let's face it have been heavily politicised by every political party that there will be a bit of time where we've got to push through sort of the mud and get through but I do think in the long run they will work. I've definitely held concerns living in a really rural area when you look at somewhere like London and you get okay kind of works how is it going to work when every village is very different from another but that's where your importance of parish will be and I think everybody forgets about parish council. I completely get not everywhere has one but you can set one up if you haven't got one and they are really hyperlocal because they've got to live within sort of a one two maybe three mile radius and represent that area I think for me on Parish I represent five thousand people and there isn't but there should be four of us in our ward so I'm not even representing that so it is very hyperlocal and it can work together.

SPEAKER_06 47:53

I've got a conservative county councillor a conservative MP and I meet with them every single month and talk about how we can work together to better our community and put party politics aside so and thank god there's people like you to represent um the local community I I know here sat in Copthorne Mim Davis big fan of Mim Davis she very much represents okay Conservative yeah um but I I I I think this is where you can almost leave the party politics to one side it's people that are passionate about their community and doing the right thing. And Ichbel your positive I guess is even when it does go wrong and Kilwood Vale gets two or three out of ten it's the community that can pull together and make it work in those situations.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

It takes a village to raise a child. We are that village and I appreciate all of you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 48:49

You should run to be councillor one day I can see that coming Paul any any parting thoughts from you?

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Any positive hopes apart from fighting for um I suppose the the the best thing we could look for is if the old fashioned type of new towns made a comeback where everything was planned out this time with proper expansion rates not like in Crawley where they thought there'd be 10 people to one car and only 12000 people it needs to be a bit more foresighted than that. But if they the c if Labor want to build new houses they need to build new towns so that all the infrastructure will be there and you won't be comes back comes back to the whole areas.

SPEAKER_00 49:32

It comes back to the whole funding thing right if you're going to put infrastructure in place for scale you need wider roads more expense and longer term thinking beyond the four or five years there are there are towns being built around the country from scratch um not in this area but that is that's also the issue of government isn't it you know a lot of our plans go beyond the four or five year term so goes back to party politics.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

James any parting thoughts from you and then we'll come to Matt yeah I I think as I said at the start pounds has been a really really shining example of how a town can be built um they they mixed very very successfully the the affordable housing with let's say the less affordable housing and there are no issues where a certain type of people are just pushed to one side and that part of town and you don't go there. They they all mix together there's loads of jobs there's a real sense of community and people actually want to spend their money in the area they live in and they want to have the area they live in and it it's prove it's proven that we can actually build if there's the will it is more difficult and that's profitable to build that way but it it's still been an absolute success and I think if we can build more like that and really consciously about how people actually live what they actually want the shops things like that and and the architecture I think is also a point that's missed all the time is England's a country with some really fantastic architecture and we we neglect it so often so I think if we could build more like Poundbury um yeah that's that the blueprint for what Forgewood is going to become so you're gonna wave the flag for Forgewood to become more like that because that's the bit you you you can influence right for I I dare say that my my influence on Forgewood becoming like Poundbury is is limited. But yeah I mean I can absolutely try and encourage community and um the shops and and the the sort of the the foundations for what make a community I can absolutely and and a bit of a fun one forget the housing development planning Queen Square the fountains they're on now I mean that I mean let's put the cost of that to one site.

SPEAKER_06 51:41

They were

Closing Thanks And How To Engage

SPEAKER_06 51:42

when when 554 thousand yeah plus then the repairs anyway they were on earlier they're probably broken again now so um who knows um but they were fixed today um but it's yeah that I mean I don't think I can go there in all this hot weather let's see how how often the fountains are on so if we can't control the fountains what chance have we got controlling the houses uh that is it uh thank you for listening it's housing development planning uh this week that was an interesting topic I think we'll come back to this and uh thank you for listening check us out on Spotify all the other topics we've covered recently as well come and join us on Facebook it's Sussex and Surrey Soapbox my thanks to Matt Bruin uh special guest from the Green Party also Paul Taylor Burr I've got that right if I Paul Taylor Burr special guest thank you very much Ichbel Khan Abigail Chapman Miller James Tidy have a lovely evening it's gone very dark here in Copthorne so we're pack up and hopefully you've enjoyed the episode see you next week tell us what do you think leave a comment below or click on send a text thank you for listening to the Sussex and Surrey soapbox