Alcohol As Social Glue Or Social Problem

Special Guest: Chelle Lucas
Roundtable Featuring: Abigail Chapman-Miller (Labour), Jacq Inwood, Maureen Jones, Aga Es and Mags Rahman. Host: Clive Hilton.

Alcohol is woven into British life so tightly that not drinking can feel like you’re breaking a rule. From champagne toasts and pub culture to “wine o’clock” on the sofa, we ask a question that’s easy to dodge and hard to answer: when does social drinking become a social problem?

Recorded at the Red Lion and Cellar Room in Betchworth, Surrey for the upcoming Alcohol Awareness Week - we bring real viewpoints and lived experience to the table. Aga talks about quitting alcohol alongside smoking and not missing it, while Abi shares what it’s like growing up around alcoholism, the way addiction can “gaslight” you, and why people are often the last to see the problem. Chelle reflects on 90s ladette binge drinking and how pub life has shifted, and Maureen draws on years of publican experience to explain why home drinking, supermarket prices, and changing habits have reshaped the community role of the local. Jacq adds the perspective of loving people with alcohol dependency, and what that costs in health, relationships, and wider society. Mags shares her lived experience which emerged during covid and a personal story of how she regained control and how Thiamine helped.

We also get practical: what “14 units a week” really means, why units are so easy to underestimate, and why stopping suddenly can be dangerous if you’re dependent. We talk stigma, alcohol-free drinks as a social bridge, and where help can start, from your GP to SMART support and Alcoholics Anonymous. If you’ve ever wondered whether your own drinking is “fine”, or felt awkward choosing not to drink, this conversation gives you language, context, and a few clear next steps.

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Please click on 'Send a text' above & join our Facebook group to share your perspective and suggestions for future topics - Thank you for your interest! Clive.

Transcript

Welcome And The Big Question

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox. Real viewpoints, real opinions, and a balanced conversation on the community issues that matter.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

It's the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox, and this week we are tackling alcohol, a social glue or a social problem. Between the 6th and 12th of July, it's also Alcohol Awareness Week. We reflect on how alcohol has become very much part of British culture in how we celebrate, relax, socialise, network, date, watch sport, and mark life's milestones. But when does social drinking become a social problem? And have we normalized something that causes far more harm than we like to admit? And have trends towards alcohol shifted across generations. Right, without further ado, let's start some introductions around the table.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

Hi, I'm Aga, a teetotaler.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

You don't drink at all?

SPEAKER_04 0:55

I don't drink at all.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Ever. Okay, good to know at the start.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Hiya, I'm Abigail Chapman Miller, a Labour counsellor and also teetotal. Ever drunk? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

We'll come to that later.

SPEAKER_06 1:07

Uh I'm Michelle Lucas and I'm a former Ladette, so former heavy drinker to now light social drinker.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

What's heavy? What what would he have been?

SPEAKER_06 1:17

Well it was it was more binge drinking, is what they would call it now. So we would go out on a Friday and we would drink lots and lots of alcohol and then wake up sometime Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Don't you still do that? I still do that now.

SPEAKER_06 1:27

No, now I'm just, you know, a couple and done. So hi I'm Max.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Um I did drink a lot.

SPEAKER_07 1:33

Uh I'm Maureen. I um well I've done a fair bit of drinking in my time, been involved in pubs, um, owning them and working in them, etc. And um yeah, I've had two husbands that have been publicans, so yeah. Um and I found I've just naturally kind of gone off drinking m so much as I've got older. I really don't do very much of it now at all. Um one glass of wine and that's it, I'm done. So a natural progression for me. Um, not through any conscious thing, but yeah, it's just something that's happened weirdly.

SPEAKER_05 2:08

Hi, I'm Jack Inwood. Um, you say you've had two husbands that are publicans, I've had two partners that are alcoholics. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

We've got the complete set. So lots of experience around the table. Uh, I'm the only guy here, and and just to own up, I do like a cocktail or two. I don't drink much. Used to travel a lot with work and used to just have a couple then. And when people say, What's your drink? I don't really have a drink. Um, so it's not it's not that way inclined with me. But uh good to get into this topic, and it it's quite ironic because we're sat in the lovely, in the lovely red line and cellar rooms here in Betchworth. So we're in nice surroundings uh and a mixture of refreshment around us as well. So, where do we get started with this topic?

How British Drinking Is Changing

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Because uh I was quite surprised in the research that um 24% of adults do not drink alcohol in 2024. So it is a it is a shifting trend. And youngsters, if you go into the workplace and you go out on a team social, some people would look at you and say, Why are you drinking alcohol? It's bad for you. When has alcohol been a good thing?

SPEAKER_06 3:12

It's a celebration, isn't it? You sort of have a clink of champagne at a wedding, you have you raise a toast at a funeral or a birthday party, or so it's a celebration thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

I think it's but it's it's also a cultural difference because when I lived in the Netherlands, people there, yes, used to have a drink, but not drink, as you were saying, Shell, on a Friday to get absolutely laddered. Yeah. Yeah. Um and that that is a culture. It's it's weird. Have you travelled the world?

SPEAKER_06 3:37

You find that other cultures deal with alcohol, but here it's very much Yes, and it's it's even sort of even in the States, which you think we our culture is very similar to the to the States, you think we're quite similar in but actually we're not at all in terms of drinking. So we have probably four or five different pubs in every community, or we certainly used to. Um whereas in America, a bar is in a bar street and then that's it, and you'll have one, and you know, you don't go there because nice people don't go there, it's only the bikers and the and the loose women that go to the bars. So at the attitudes towards drinking in general is very, very different in England. I think England have got a very specific relationship with alcohol compared to the city.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

And is that because of where pubs shut at 11? Because in Holland, for example, when I was there, because they were open, people didn't have to drink two at a time. I don't know, it's a it's a complex subject.

SPEAKER_06 4:26

And I do think it's changing attitudes to alcohol is very, very much evolving. Um, certainly, as I said, I was former Ladetto, so back in the 90s when I was a teenager, we was, you know, it would get to Friday night and you wouldn't just have a drink and end up drunk. It was almost like a race to see who could get drunk first.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

It was, you know, downing shots and drinking pints and and also there were more pubs, there were more clubs, Icon, Deverin, Crawley, the rest, and and Maureen, uh, you know, through quite a few years in in the pub space, have you seen trends change in terms of running a pub these days?

Pubs Then And Pubs Now

SPEAKER_07 4:58

Yeah. Oh god, yeah. I mean when we had pubs at the beginning, there was always a lot of bar stools. You'd have your bar flies, as we call them, people just sit at the bar stools all day. And that kind of, you know, the older men that would sit there for a few hours and then go home about eight o'clock at night. And you build a types that would come in at four when they'd finished and have a few pints. They've all gone now. Um all gone, but um it's a lot less. And I think that bar stool culture has gone.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

What kind of vibe would you say it is now in running a pub or what you have to cater for?

SPEAKER_07 5:32

Well, I think you have to do food to survive. Um you have to cater to the well, the big competitor really is that is become the home, I think, in the last 20, 30 years. Because, you know, when I grew up, my parents had a little drink's cabinet and there might be a drop of sherry in there and a bottle of scotch that got got brought out every so often. Um but you know, they didn't we they didn't drink wine, my parents, it wasn't the thing that you know, and and then suddenly we had this boom of the wine thing, didn't we? You know, back in the 80s, everyone started on the wine and cocktails and and then then the home, you know, so now the supermarket selling cheap wine and people going to on holidays and br and booze trips abroad and all of that. Um and people, you know, do up their houses nice and they have their great big tellies and they have Netflix, don't they? So there's a lot, you know, you have to you have to make people want to go out to somewhere that's a little bit different or has got something better to offer than their home.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah. So they don't want to go to and part of it's cost of living, what is a luxury expense. But pubs used to be the heart of the community. Now you've got community centres, community cafes.

SPEAKER_07 6:42

Yeah, I think and coffee culture. Yeah. That I mean for women especially, they go for coffee now with their friends. You know, we didn't have all these coffee shops years ago, did we? So, you know, you might you might arrange with a friend to go for a drink for an evening. Now women tend to go out for a coffee during the day more and things like that. So it's all changing, it's all changing. The the the kind of dyn uh demographic of the older drinkers, the older boys, they've all kind of they're all dying off, and you're not getting younger men finishing their day's work and going to the pub now. Yeah, you know, and that's where they start becoming pub regulars. And they just don't do that, they go home.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Um and this links to the subject we did on the high street and and and what do people look for in the services industry and hospitality as a whole. Um,

Choosing To Stop Drinking

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Aka, when you're hearing this, having never drunk at all, do you feel you've missed out?

SPEAKER_04 7:34

Uh no, uh I've misunderstood you, I guess, because it's not like I've never drunk at all. Okay. I don't drink now.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Coming clean now.

SPEAKER_04 7:40

Yeah, I'm coming clean now. I don't drink now, and I stopped drinking completely about two and a half years ago. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

And why was that?

SPEAKER_04 7:47

What I quit smoking. I was a chain smoker for many, many years. Uh and when I quit smoking, I had to stop drinking because you know, the air. So I had to quit both to quit effectively. And before that, I was a social drinker, so I would have a drink maybe once a month if I if I'd go out, and that would be one pint or one cocktail. So I don't think I was ever a heavy drinker.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

But interesting, the link with smoking to get healthy, ended up thinking, yeah, if I have a drink, I'm gonna have a smoke. So that was your reason.

SPEAKER_04 8:24

I don't think one would work out without the other, so I had to quit both.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Um Win-win.

SPEAKER_04 8:29

Win-win. And I I realised I don't miss drinking at all.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Yes, um, I have never actually had a positive relationship with alcohol. Um, it's alcoholism's wife in my family, so something that I've grown up with. And I guess I followed the trend at about 14, 15, started drinking. Um and that was my my teenage years. I spent my teenage years sitting in a park drinking vodka with friends, and I would do that every single day. And I was definitely at that cusp by the time that I stopped drinking that I could have gone down either road.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

So that wasn't casual, Joe. That was that was quite problematic.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

No, I I I had a real problem with with drinking. I I would don't go as far as identifying myself as an alcoholic. Um maybe I would have if I if this was as an adult, but I think because I was a teenager in a social crowd all around my peers who are all doing the absolute same. But I had a good four or five years where every night I was out drinking, ending up in situations that I shouldn't uh waking up on Hastings Beach one day, not really sure how I got there. So I had a real struggle with alcohol.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

And did you recognise it as a problem at the time? Because obviously you you alluded to childhood and and and you might not notice, right? Because you all of your childhood you've been brought up around that, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

I was I was aware and I wasn't. So I had other family members in my family who would compare me to those who had a drinking problem. Um, but when you are 17, 18, 19, it sort of goes in one ear and out the other.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

And when you're in that moment, someone giving you that that sort of view from the outside, you think no, that's not a good thing. Yeah, you kind of looking back a bit.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

Looking back, you can you can certainly tell and I can completely understand that I was on that exact same path. And actually, I was really lucky because I was born with a medical condition that um blew up out of nowhere. So I was forced to stop drinking because of that. I didn't come to an epiphany of I need to stop this or this was a bad behaviour or action, like it would become life or death for me through something else. Um, but I've then grown up since where those of my peers in that age range didn't stop, and that has been just as difficult, and um actually ended up in my best friend passing away a couple of years ago now of complete organ failure caused by alcoholism, and going through that journey with him was really difficult because that's when I really started to see the British culture in it. Um, I have always been really easy to say when someone says to me, you know, why don't you drink algorithm? It's because of the medication I'm on, which is true, but there is a detail.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

It's a shorter answer, it's a shorter gets to the bottom answer. And thank you for sharing that. Uh it's interesting. So, unlike Agatha, where it was a choice health, you have a false sort of health to not do that again, and the relationship with your partner as well.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Uh,

When Drinking Becomes A Problem

SPEAKER_03 11:55

we're gonna come to Jack in a moment, who's also experienced because addiction, alcohol, when you're in a relationship with someone, very difficult my best friend, but um when he tried to get sober a couple of times, and the British culture around him, especially being you know a young lad in his twenties, whenever he would say to anyone, you know, I'm I'm I'm trying to get clean, they'd just laugh at him and be like, Well, what do you need to do that for? You have you haven't got a problem with drinking. Um, he could never actually get to the point where he could be honest with absolutely everybody that he had a problem. But the idea that you have a problem with drinking and then telling people that a lot in my experience of it is it just it just gets laughed off. Like that's a shame, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Because for someone in that situation to recognise it firstly and then say it out loud to get laughed off, um Yeah, is it's huge, and and that that is the biggest step in in any addiction, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Is admitting that you've got a problem.

SPEAKER_05 12:55

So I was going to say if you give up smoking, and you tell people you've given up smoking, nobody tries to get you to smoke. You say you've given up drinking, and people um they see you as sort of having stepped away from that society. I don't think it is a British problem. I totally disagree with that. It's also very much an Irish problem, an Australian problem, and a Scandinavian problem. So I'm lucky enough to have travelled the world, spent a lot of time in Norway and Sweden and Denmark, they all have similar problems. Um I think traditionally the pub was there, um well traditionally it was a place to people rest their horses and to and also water wasn't that safe to drink. People used to drink beer, but it's changed.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

At least there was water back then.

SPEAKER_05 13:42

Yeah, exactly. Nothing like living in Kent now. Um but I think I grew up in a house with no alcohol. I mean, I I went I got a scholarship to a posh school and I go to people's houses. Who are these people that are so wealthy they can just have money sitting there on a drinks trolley? It was completely alien to me. My parents didn't drink at all, partly because one of my grandfathers had been a heavy drinker. Went to university and everybody drank, and you were just weird if you didn't drink. Um so that was quite odd. And then I went to work in the city. I went to work in the city um in the 80s, very, very male environment, huge, huge drinking culture, and you were just expected to drink. Clients, you know, you get the risk manager of some large company, uh probably quite a geeky guy coming down to London to renew his insurance policy. Your job is to take him out and make sure he has a good time. Me, the underwriters, the team, you entertain that person. Alcohol, alcohol, alcohol.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

And not just alcohol in the city environment that would lead to other addictions.

SPEAKER_05 14:45

Not really then, no. So some in the 80s, and even well, even the nineties and the and the early 2000s, it was pretty much booze. But I remember once taking clients to Wimbledon, the tennis, um, and um I think it was something like the Williams sisters were on centre court, and the wrist manager of Company X that gave us millions of pounds a year wanted to stay in the bar, and I was supposed to mark him man for man. And um he just wanted to carry on drinking because it was free, knocking it back. And in the end, I did the cardinal sin. I left him in the bar and went and watched the tennis, you know. But there's lots and lots and lots of it. Um, but I had a spectacular situation. Um, we had a big international hotel chain that their risk manager liked to drink, and every year we'd go on or we'd go on booze cruises of different pubs in England, or we'd go the biggie, the international. And I remember arriving really early, getting a really early flight, meeting everybody in in Berlin, crack of dawn, then we start drinking. You're drinking on the bus, you're going here, you're going there, there's lunch, there's booze. And it was about then he still wants to carry on partying, he wants everyone to party. And this was the culture then. So I remember we all went somewhere. I think we went to a nightclub, we were dancing, and then we got back to the hotel about two o'clock in the morning, and I just wanted to go to bed. And because, no, carry on drinking jags. Oh, you know, poor Barman wants to go to bed. And I stood up and I just threw up spectacularly everywhere, and um, and I thought this is nuts. We're all just this is why insurance premiums are so high because the insurance industry was party town because it's so dull. But that was a work thing, and I remember thinking then that it alienated women, and then once I had my baby and went back to work, I didn't want to do this anymore. Definitely affected my career, definitely, and it's changed a lot, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

I remember when I used to travel a lot with telco across large of Europe, um, drinking was part of it with clients, but now in the workplace it's completely changed. Drinking after work is a sort of taboo, it's not really the thing because of women, because otherwise it's a very guy thing. Women are sort of understood to go home and it's not like that anymore. And actually, going somewhere to drink alcohol is a bit taboo, it's more going to a vegetarian place to have small bite-sized dishes. I sort of like the occasional drink, but but I think there is a need to take it to the extreme, isn't it? I don't think we're where all this drinking to sickness becomes.

SPEAKER_05 17:15

Yeah, I think a lot of guys that I know who were alcoholics, a lot of people functioning alcoholics, so a lot of guys that would go, and I married one of them, would go to the pub every they come in early and then at lunchtime they'd go to the pub then about about one o'clock, then they'd come back at four o'clock and they'd they'd work until six back in the pub.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

How long were you with them for?

SPEAKER_05 17:34

With the company or that person, about 15 years. But you come to realise that that person, alcohol, um, plays a huge part in their life. And um, I wasn't actually counting him as one of the alcoholics, that's two other people. But um, you can see how it creeps up on people, and I think it becomes like obesity, it becomes like an illness. There is a there's a physical and a psychological dependency, and the two things are related but different, and then it becomes you know, it's like any any psychological problem, is it's years in the making, and then the people are then trying to turn it round, thinking that they can crack it. And if you think you're a seriously heavy drinker slash alcoholic, and you're trying to come off it, it's a very long programme. You have to be really committed to it. Um, for a lot of people, heavy drinking just has become become and not my generation, but I think it's changing. My son's 25, doesn't drink at all, nor does his girlfriend, but some of his friends still do, and it's affecting the friendships because it's kind of boring. I don't want to go out and drink.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Well, come to generation makes it definitely shifted across generation. Uh and why

Workplace Culture And Party Pressure

SPEAKER_01 18:37

do we think people drink? Is it because of the wine o'clock culture as we're touching upon, or drinking to cope with stress, drinking because they're alone, functional alcoholism, which is what we're talking about now. Uh Aga, thoughts on this?

SPEAKER_04 18:50

The culture has changed a lot. Uh although we still go out for drinks. Um, my workplace organizes teen drinks or workplace drinks every month. It's not mandatory. Whoever wants to go goes, whoever doesn't want to go uh won't go.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

How well attended is it?

SPEAKER_04 19:09

Oh, it's very well attended. The majority of people go, including myself. You're in construction though, on you. Yes, yes, I do. Yeah. Um and it's I think many heavy party people at my workplace are actually women. Yeah. Um, they they do drink the guys under the table. Uh, but if somebody doesn't want to drink, there isn't this stigma around it, there isn't uh the whole, oh, why are you not drinking? Oh, come on, go on, go on. Uh, nobody says that. Um many people sip on Jeeves, including myself. I suppose that has changed a lot. But one other thing that I will say is that people are more aware of how much time they do dedicate to work. So um perhaps in the 80s you'd go out during lunchtime, then you'd work until six, then back to the pub uh and on a train home around 11 o'clock at night. Right now, people are paid for seven and a half hours and then move home. And that's that's it, which in my opinion is one of the other reasons why people don't want to go out drinking with the workmates because they've already been with them for eight hours straight.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Very good.

Lockdown Vodka And Hitting Bottom

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Mags, you're very quiet on this.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Yeah, so I did have a very big problem with an alcohol. Um, it started with the COVID together. So I was drinking every second day and not like a couple of drinks. It was like a full bottle of vodka every second day to the point that I started to neglect my work. My I didn't spend time with my kids. I was not cooking, not cleaning, doing nothing. And I was having depression that time, which I thought that alcohol actually was helping me with that, but it was otherwise, other other completely opposite. And I've realized one day that actually I have a problem with that, which I think is very important when people will realize actually that they have a problem with that.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Can you remember that moment uh of it's a problem?

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Yeah, I do. Yeah, so because I used to love to sing. I was singing everywhere, every day. I was in Poland, I was working like that. I was uh singing on the weddings. And when I started to drink like heavier uh on the lockdown, I was having like an app which I was singing with the other people and stuff, and I realized that I don't want to do it anymore. You became withdrawn, you weren't doing the singing during COVID when you I didn't want to see my friends because I was drinking on my own, you know. And um then I asked for the help and I was attending a group uh which the lady said that actually I'm not that much alcoholic like I'm thinking, but when I when I was classifying myself anyway as an alcoholic because that was you know, if I couldn't work properly because of that, because uh I couldn't spend with my kids properly time because of that, for me that's alcoholism, you know. So yeah, I was drinking and and I and I uh damaged my liver as well because of that. So um I was drinking like that nearly four years.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

And not so long ago, uh thank you for sharing what what helped you because it's not an easy journey going from you know a bottle of vodka every two days to recognizing it and then turn what what really helped shift you, anyone listening to this in that similar predicament.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Yeah, so I didn't go storm cold on that. Um important was that as well that my husband was supporting me with this, you know. He even went to the groups with me sometimes, you know, just to give me the support and stuff. And yeah, I think it's very important to ask for that help um if someone has a problem with that. It's really important. No one is gonna laugh at you, you know, if you're going to the proper place, which you can find online.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

And which groups, which groups did you use?

SPEAKER_02 23:08

That was in Crowley. Um I just I just googled the groups of alcoholic. I can't remember the name, but it's near to the police station, one group. You can just walk in in there as well. So yeah, that's very helpful if someone helps.

Getting Help That Actually Works

SPEAKER_01 23:22

And if this is resonating with anyone at home, we've had Men's Share listening group on the show before, also Sister Share as well. Um, any other services from others around the table that we're aware of that can help in this situation? I'm I'm just conscious that it's a very powerful story, Megs, that you're sharing. We've also heard from Abby and anyone listening to where it's resonating for local services across Sussex and Surrey. Any others that we can think of that would help in this space?

SPEAKER_03 23:46

I think you've you've always got Alcoholics Anonymous, which I'll be the first to say either really works for you or doesn't. Um there's definitely been people in my life who have really struggled with it from the more spiritual element attached to Alcoholics Anonymous, derived out of a Christian movement. Um, but also your doctors can refer you to something called SMART, which is very much a more holistic approach of looking at all types of addiction, um, which is sort of mixed with the medical input with uh sort of your therapies and everything. And SMART's a bit more geared up for if you need support in that also the first detoxing stage, so to support you um to do that rehab outside of a traditional rehab. So I've known people do it at home and the nurses come every day to sort of give them the medication for the first week, which has been really helpful, which means they're still around their supportive community. Um, but there are so many different organisations out there, but you can always just go to your GP and they will they will help you.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

And it's definitely a journey. I think it always takes longer than you expect it's gonna take. Uh and you know, the trick is not to be too hard on yourself as well, I guess, as you're going through this, uh, and too judgmental and pushing yourself, but you know, these services are there to help and are familiar with working in that respect. Um, Max, um, with your situation, um fine now? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

I'm all good.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

And anyone listening to any tips that you would give them? Um, because obviously I guess it originated from a reason of why you started.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

I'm I'm not sure if definitely not to give up. If you fall on it once, you know, you when you come back to this drink and you still have a chance to go out. Like if you can't do it first time, try it second time, third time, or you will do it eventually.

SPEAKER_07 25:50

I think yeah, a lot of people turn to alcohol at times of trouble, um, at times of depression, and of course it it is a depress depressive thing, it makes you feel a lot worse, um which is a real shame. I th and I think it's just so accessible, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 26:06

And and I guess people take it as it numbs the feeling, right?

SPEAKER_07 26:09

It numbs the feeling, they they get a kind of temporary lift, don't they? And you know, and get silly and giggle and things that they can't do normally in their day. So um they look at it for that, but um it's just so it creeps up on people, I think, over

TV, Advertising And Everyday Triggers

SPEAKER_07 26:24

time. And I think, you know, as a society we it kind of really annoys me, and I watch telly a lot, you know. You watch the soap operas and it's like you know, they they walk into the house, every woman, every bloke, and they pour a great big glass of wine.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Well, Eastenders, you think about East Enders centres on the pub.

SPEAKER_07 26:41

What is this with men? They're always getting the decanter and pouring whiskey. Oh no, I don't know men that drink whiskey like that. And it's just sort of mad, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 26:48

It's this normalization of it's funny because because on the TV thing, you don't really see people smoking on the telly anymore.

SPEAKER_07 26:55

No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

But drinking hasn't gone that way just yet.

SPEAKER_07 26:58

And and especially with women, you know, if you watch Coronation Street, you know, where there's this glamorous caller and she's always got a massive glass of wine in her hand at any given moment, or um oh actually she doesn't now because she she they did an alcohol story with her, but the the women in it, you know, and they walk into a pub on completely on their own. Oh, get me a large one. You know, and don't women don't really do that generally. I mean, and some women might, yes, of course, but it's like it's just promoted as this most normal thing ever.

SPEAKER_05 27:26

I I was also used to something in about accessibility then, Maureen. I um I've I've got a a look-up full of stuff from when I had the shop, and I every so often I go through sort of phases on eBay, which means I go down to my little post office, my little shop regularly. Sometimes, you know, I go down there most days as I've sold something. And I thought that you look there and all the tobacco now is all behind a shutter. You can't see it, so you couldn't say whatever the brand is, and it's not on the tell. But all the alcohol is behind the bloke who's doing the post office, and it's all backlit and it all looks bar. And I just think, imagine if you were trying to give up, and then suddenly there's an offer on that brand of whiskey on that brand of, and it's right in your face. And I think that's the problem, it is everywhere and it's and it's in the face. And as you were saying about it creeps up on people, it does, you know, it's a physic, it's it's a it's a social thing, and then when people become physically dependent on it, it's really dangerous. And I I've I'm sure I don't think I've imagined this. I'm sure I've put the tell on, maybe waiting for the news to come on, maybe the chase. Um, and I've seen I'm sure I've seen alcohol adverts on telly, and I thought that can't be right, that must be banned, and it's not.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

So I'm and in some places it is, I think. In Holland it started to be able, but would you ban it in this country?

SPEAKER_05 28:38

I don't think it's appropriate tea time. Um, I think there should be a nine o'clock watershed on it. And I think alcohol in shops should be um it shouldn't be on display and backlit. The same in the local Tesco's, the alcohol is absolutely on display.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

And I I think um Well, it's in all supermarkets, and when we were talking about Sweden earlier, I know in Sweden you can't get alcohol in a normal shop, you've got to go to a special shop.

SPEAKER_05 29:00

Yeah, when I used to go to Sweden, I might have been Norway, one of them is called the Van Monopole. And if you were down there too often buying booze, a social worker would say, Oh, you know, Mr. Mr. Gun Guns, you've been down here three times this week. Do you want to talk about it? And um, different, different so down. I can't I'm going back to the 80s and 90s, but it yeah, you couldn't buy booze in a shop. And I I think that's uh I don't know if it's helped them or not. I don't know if their problems are better

Moderation, Addiction And The Disease Debate

SPEAKER_05 29:25

or worse.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

And I guess part of the question is is alcohol itself a problem, or is it how we're using alcohol to the extreme? I guess smoking's different because it affects those around people. I think so.

SPEAKER_04 29:41

Alcohol itself isn't a problem. It's just I'm just trying to convince myself that the cocktail and drink. Because there is a colossal difference between having a drink and getting drunk. So alcohol itself, if used in moderation, isn't necessarily a problem.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

However, you're making me feel bad because actually sometimes I do like to get drunk, even though I'm 53.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

I liked it. Um, so it was very hard for me to quit. Alcohol, much easier because I never really loved alcohol so much. But the point I'm trying to make is that it depends on the person.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Uh the minute alcohol tri uh starts to control your life, if you whether you're doing it in moderation and you feel you can control it, I guess versus the other way around.

SPEAKER_04 30:31

Exactly. The minute you let alcohol control you, the minute you realize you can't function properly without having a drink, you can't have this conversation without having a drink, you can't go to bed without having a glass of wine. This is where the problem starts. Because if you drink casually, if you have a glass of champagne at a New Year's Eve party, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Abby, you seem very thoughtful.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

Yeah, I I think the issue is that those who who do have the problem, it it's a disease, right? And they're usually the last to know that they've got the problem. So I I certainly It's a disease. Yes, so it's 100 disease. Yes. Um and I mean I spent my entire childhood with a fem family member who I had never known sober, and they got sober when I was 26, and they were certainly the last person to accept that there was an issue. And the the the thing with the disease is it will t it will tell you that everybody else is the problem. You'll it will convince you that that person doesn't like you, that person's attacking you, that person's wrong, that you haven't got an issue, and even trick you into being like, Okay, well, I started drinking at four yesterday, so I'm gonna drink at five today. That hour shows me that I'm in control. So it is it's like being in a relationship with something that is constantly brainwashing and gaslighting you. Um and it is it has been seen to now be a medical disease. There there is chemical changes in the in in the brain, and also there's genetic um deposition to it, so it's very much runs through one side of my family. It's quite common that you'll see a family that have got lots of addicts in it. Um so you can be predisposed by DNA to to human and I think it's it's a hard one because I, you know, I'm I'm not sitting in the camp of like let's outright ban alcohol. Uh, but we do know scientifically now that if alcohol was produced for the first time today, it would never be legalized because of the health risks attached to it. So it's it's a case of finding ways to support those better who have issues. I do I do still sit in the camp that there are always going to be there is a cultural element in this country that people are gonna either press you to drink or think that you're weird drinking. In terms of younger, I I came through where you could still get served in certain shops under the age of 18. The generation below me is worked in two halves in that yes, a lot of people aren't drinking anymore because you can't just dole yourself up and go into a pub and pretend to be over the age of 18 or buying a shop, but then actually working with those kids seeing them go more towards things like cannabis and cocaine is also prevalent. So then you've got to have the argument of well, what is better a drink of Stella in a park at 15 or a line of coke, and that's a long, long debate in itself. So I do think we're seeing the cutoff, but not without its costs.

Alcohol-Free Drinks And New Norms

SPEAKER_01 33:52

And what about these zero alcohol drinks? Are are they a helpful pathway to uh has that been a welcomed?

SPEAKER_06 34:02

So when you're in in your in the pub, you can have an alcohol-free pint, you're still standing there with a pint. No one knows what's in your glass because you're standing there with a pint. So it removes that stigma. So you can still feel part of the group and you can still feel socially drinking without actually having to drink.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

But to Abby's point with a 15-year-old, I guess they're looking for that release, the alcohol not just being looking like you're having a drink, but not, and and then it's worrying coming to the choice of well, do you allow that drink or do you line a code?

SPEAKER_06 34:32

You're right, it's we we wouldn't have alcohol today if we'd have known when it was just invented. So whenever you have an argument about legalizing drugs, you the argument is always well, drugs are no different to alcohol, and yet we have allowed alcohol for all of these years. Well, I wouldn't want drugs to be legalised, so actually, should we consider banning alcohol? I don't think we should ban alcohol. I think we should reduce how readily available it is. I think we should go back to having where most people, if you want to drink alcohol, you go to the pub, you have a couple, the barmaid says, I think you've had enough, mate, you need to go home. And then there's that control. You can't spend I mean, you can go and get gallons and gallons of alcohol down in Liddells for the same price as maybe two or three drinks.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

It's a bit like when you're on the plane. So if you have too much on the plane, generally there was I think you've had enough. So not that it's ever happened to me, but you know. Um Max, your hands up and then back to Abby.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Yeah, I think um what would be brilliant. For example, not that now you sometimes can buy, can't buy alcohol after ten o'clock when actually adults going out after ten o'clock, not the teenagers, you know. So I think the idea could be it could be from ten o'clock to a certain time sell the alcohol, not from the morning during the whole day. I think that could reduce as well, you know, so you be looser on the timeline because it's so instead of not selling from 10 pm to six in the morning, then for example, sell from 10 pm to six in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Yeah, so change the times that's available. It's a bit like the childhood episode. If you try and put controls, you get rebellious and maybe apply that same thinking um with this. Um Abby and then Agger?

Availability, Nanny State And Real Costs

SPEAKER_03 36:15

I think it's also about teaching about it and the awareness because I don't hide the fact that as much as I've been around alcohol, I've been exposed to drug culture growing up. And I remember sitting in so many classes about talk to Frank, the effects of this drug, the effect of that drug. Um I've never had one conversation about alcohol other than one sex ed lesson where I was taught how to put a condom on with drunk goggles, wasn't very useful for me because that was the only thing to do with alcohol. I'm uh I'm a really gay woman, so it wasn't useful. But in terms of that, that was my awareness of drink education was that if you're gonna drink, at least know how to have sex safely. There was nothing around awareness of addiction, behaviours, even that you're easier compulsed into doing things when you're drunk. And I think we need to be teaching about alcohol just as much as we need to be teaching about illegal substances.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

And this is released during Alcohol Awareness Week, um, and hence having this conversation is a good platform to share these stories and these lived experiences. It still is a bit taboo, though, isn't it? I mean it's better people talk about it, but I mean it comes back to what we said at the top. You know, is it a problem more than people would admit? People socially wouldn't necessarily talk about still alcohol being too problematic, right? Or is that just a lot of people?

SPEAKER_07 37:44

Well, I think a lot of people um they they don't want to be judgy because they'll be with people and they know that someone in the group drinks quite a bit or whatever, and um and I think yeah, and but and most people probably a little think to themselves, oh I should cut down a bit. I've drunk every night this week, I've got in and poured a big glass, you know. Um but they they'll brush it off, they don't really want to face up to it, I think. It's this sort of quiet problem that everyone's got, and they well I'm functioning fine, and yeah, they just push it to the back of their head. Um but and and also I think you know nowadays drinking you know that it does lead to cocaine as well. Uh you go in any pub, yeah, there's a constant battle against people using drugs as well as drink. Um that's rife everywhere, and one thing does lead, you know, drinking does lead to that. So, or you're more likely to, if you're drunk, you think, oh go on, I'll have a line of that, then I'll try that. Um so it's all sort of interlinked. But I think you know, any kind of you know, changing laws on drinking in this country or whatever will just come up against that accusation of nanny state, won't it? Yeah, there'll be just such a huge hoo-ha. But I don't think politicians want to go would ever go want to go near it, really.

SPEAKER_05 38:56

But they I think things because there are a lot of things that you know pinpoint the decline of this country. Was it the Queen dying? Was it was it this? Was it that? But I do think pubs used to be children were not welcome in pubs, they were places for grown-ups, and pubs would close. They would they would open for lunch and then they would close for the afternoon. The poor Republican would put their feet up and have a bit of a live and they'd open again in the evening. And we sort of we made it completely normal for them to be open all day, illegal for them to be open all days, and completely normal to bring children in. And I still maybe for Sunday lunch, but I still don't think pubs are really environments for children. But we've kind of normalized alcohol and our our relationship. Somebody was mentioned right at the beginning, you know, we have alcohol to celebrate a baby being born, to toast a wedding, we have alcohol, we drown our sorrows at a funeral, we have alcohol at awake. It's it's everywhere, and it's far too readily available, and people do not understand. It's like it's like sugar as well. It's all going to catch up with people because it becomes, and smoking did, a burden for the NHS because of all the alcohol-related problems. And I've I've lived or had relationships with two alcoholics, and um the money it's cost to try and undo them and unravel it, and I'm not sure that you can. I think once certain chemical changes in the brain have gone beyond a certain point, you can't get that.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Which is this disease, it becomes more of a disease rewai. And it does impact health care and costs for the country. Massively. We like this question. If you were Prime Minister, Jack, yeah, what what changes would you put in place or not, or would it become too nanny state? Do you think the responsibility is on the human, on the person?

SPEAKER_05 40:33

Earlier on in another conversation, we were talking about not being things on telly. We all remember the squirrel that used to get squashed on the road safety. And uh, I don't think I've I can't remember, or or don't go, don't go swimming in uh in the reservoir and things like that. I don't see public warnings about anything now, and certainly about alcohol. And back back to the point that Abby just made about school, not talked about alcohol in school. It is a legalized drug because the government make money out of it, and if they if they stop just drinking, they stop collecting tax. So it's a very difficult situation. I think most people, and maybe um, you know, maybe most people, it would it would help. I know I was in Thailand a few months back, and um I saw I saw expats there waiting, all the alcohol is roped off because they can only buy it from certain times, and they're waiting for the for the for the time to come so they can buy their bottle of wine and go home again. But you think, well, probably they'll just buy two bottles of wine so they can tide them over, but uh it does make you stop and think because you're having to think about alcohol and think about your consumption, and I think there is a cost to the wider society from violence um and from the from the cost to the NHS.

SPEAKER_04 41:44

One thing I'm thinking about when we're talking about overconsumption is that how much does it really cost us in monetary terms? We are in we are in a cost of living crisis. So realistically, how much more money do people have to get smashed every night? And perhaps that's a discussion about pub versus home because obviously buying a creative beer and drinking it at home is much, much cheaper than um you know buying a couple of pints and drinking them in a pub. But I'm just wondering how many heavy, heavy drinkers are left there in the wild when everything else costs so much, or perhaps the addiction is so strong that you will go without food just to buy a pint. Maybe it's that sort of level.

SPEAKER_05 42:30

Yeah, but it's choices, isn't it? You know, that person probably won't be spending money on a gym membership, whereas you might be, you know, it's all it's just choices, and luckily we do live in a free society and we do have freedom of choice, but can some people just can't, you know, manage their own lives? And I I've been in a relationship with two people that cannot manage their own lives because of alcohol and the cost in terms of um police being called to things, to their medical problems, to their counselling, to their you know, the list got the cost to society, it's just a pebble in a p in a in a pond. It's um it's quite a lot when you really start to

Units, Safer Quitting And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_05 43:06

look at it.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

And when we think about consumption, uh does anyone know uh what the recommended number of units are a week? Fourteen. Fourteen. Very good. You've read the notes. Did you know? I didn't know, I did know.

SPEAKER_07 43:18

The problem is people have no concept of what an actual unit is.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

That's what we're going to get into next. I'm not sure I know the answer. But does anyone know the answer? What's one unit of alcohol equal to?

SPEAKER_07 43:27

A one, two, five mil glass of wine. It is. Oh, of course you'd know. A thimble. Small. But just be there. Small.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Is that one unit?

SPEAKER_07 43:36

Yeah. I mean actually most pubsel 175 is considered a you a small glass of wine.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

That's one unit.

SPEAKER_07 43:42

Yeah, so so once a small glass of wine is actually more than one unit. There's probably one and a half.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

So fourteen glasses of small wine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 43:52

A week we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Well, it says here the UK chief medical officer recommends fourteen units per week max, yeah. But spread Spread over, this is the key bit spread over, so you can't use your 14 units in one night. Max.

SPEAKER_02 44:05

I just wanted to say for the people which they're trying to quit or they actually realizing that they have a problem, it's very important to take tamin. This is like uh all the vitamins B. So this is what I was given uh by GP. This is stopping the damage in the brain which can be caused by alcohol. So this is very important that you can get it over the counter as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

What tablets are?

SPEAKER_02 44:27

It's tamin.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

It's it's because it's you should never actually just stop that can kill you. So if you've if you are drinking a lot and you just stop, your body can go into shock and it can it can kill you. So you are always supposed to go and get that medical advice.

SPEAKER_02 44:45

No, no, I'm saying about these changes in the brain during your drinking, even you know. Yeah. So this is all this vitamins B which they you have uh you know in your brain, not to kill yourselves completely, completely, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Interesting advice, and it's alcohol awareness week. Uh we're sat at the red line uh and cellar room in Betchworth talking about this topic, and it's been fascinating. I'm the only guy here, so I do feel we haven't had too much of a men's perspective, but it's probably not different between genders, it's more across the generations. And just to finish up the generation conversation, do we think that's true?

SPEAKER_07 45:22

Yes, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

So there will become a generation where drinking is like smoking. I wonder what the equivalent of a vape is, probably the zero percent.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

But I don't know, it's probably just you know I say yes with the caveat because a lot of the people I know my age and younger who don't drink do something else. Exactly. So it's not that drinking's stopping.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

It's something else is taking its place at potentially worse.

SPEAKER_06 45:47

If we're gonna have alcohol, it needs to go return to being a social event. Whereas actually I think the problem starts with alcohol when it stops being social and it starts being isolating.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

You just mentioned the vaping. Actually, when you're going to GP and he's asking you if you're smoking, and you said you are vaping, you are attacked as a non-smoker.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Really? Yeah. Anything else remaining on alcohol before we finish up? It's been a fascinating thing.

SPEAKER_07 46:13

The cultural thing I'm uh it's been kind of amusing me. I keep seeing these sort of memes and things come out with the World Cup. There'd be a lot of drinking go on around that, won't they? But um, yeah, the the the all about are the Americans ready? Because the they don't know what's coming, the English fans, because they they they're a very different drinking culture, aren't they? 21, haven't you to drink in America and they don't do it, drink they don't drink a lot in America at all, really. So they're gonna get a shock with all these drunk rich turning up through the big country dry. Yes, make the bars dry.

SPEAKER_04 46:44

Well, there is that, of course. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Anyone doing a sweepstak here on the World Cup, we're deviating slightly from my dad decided to make a real science of it. So um I'm taking part in this family sweepstak, but I don't even know what countries I've got yet, and it's we've already started it. So there we go. Uh fascinating topic. If

Closing And How To Join In

SPEAKER_01 47:04

you're listening to this and you're thinking they've missed the point, do let us know. Come and join the Facebook group Sussex and Surrey Soapbox. We'd love to hear what you think. Also, any future topics as well. Come and follow us on Spotify across all the podcast platforms. Uh, Agger, Abby, Michelle, Max, Maureen, Jack. Thank you very much. And we'll see you next week. That's the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox. Tell us what you think.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Leave a comment below or click on send a text. Thank you for listening to the Sussex and Surrey Soapbox.