How Much Should You Shelter Your Kids? - Discipleship For Dads

The dads discuss sheltering kids from the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—while still living in the world. They ask whether you can ever over-protect your kids, talking about how to help them discern good from bad…the value of family-integrated entertainment…trying to achieve holiness by subtraction rather than encouraging good appetites…and swimming with your kids instead of throwing them in the deep end.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

And welcome, friends, to the Generations Broadcast, another segment of Discipleship for Dads. This one, a big subject, with Bill Roach and Danny Craig on this edition. All of us homeschooling dads, a couple of homeschool grandpa. Nine grandchildren. As of last week. Congratulations. Congratulations. And you are 16 grandchildren.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

And I've got five kids.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Five children. Okay, just getting started. Okay. So today the question is overprotection versus underprotection or overexposing your children to the toxic culture around us. Something we talk about a fair amount. But what's the what's the balance here? Where do we get into this overprotection versus underprotection? Are we sheltering our children? We were something of the sheltered poster children of the 1970s when uh my dad allowed us to watch one movie. Oh, yeah. Yeah. When we were out in the mission field in Japan, it's an American movie, um, uh Sound of Music. Oh, boy. We didn't make it through the whole thing because uh got too romantic. You know what? You know what, Ken. In the middle of that movie, it shut it off.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

I remember watching this. Sorry I interrupted you. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

No, go for it. No, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

I I remember watching The Sound of Music in Russia, too, Missionary Family in Russia. And at seven years of age, I was bothered for months by the scenes where there was a little bit of cleavage in the in the in the video. And that was just that was an issue for you. That was an issue.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Well, maybe that was part of it for my dad. I don't know, but he shut it off, and uh that was about it. Half of a movie was all we got from Hollywood in my uh early raising. Um so was it overprotective? Well, it's interesting as it came back stateside and uh rather quickly ran for student body president of a major West Coast University and won. And so, you know, in the world, but not of it. We have three options. We can escape the world, right? It's hard to do because you got to go to a grocery store from time to time, pick up groceries. So we can't totally escape the world, right? Uh you you can conform to the world. Problem with that is Romans 12, 1 and 2, be not conform to this world, not supposed to.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

The other is to overcome the world. Amen. And that's first John. So we are to overcome the world, but we're to overcome the world by faith. Now there's the Luddite uh impulse. The Luddites were those that opposed technology in the 1800s, and they would actually destroy machinery and some of these industrial things. Yeah. And I maybe it was the fact that it was undermining the family economy. I don't know what it was, but they were out there destroying machinery. They were opposed to the industrial revolution. And so there's still, I think, in opposition to AI, for example. Um, there's a Luddite impulse in all of us to run from the world. Um the Amish, the Mennonites, they tend to back away more so um from the world. And I I think God has not given us a spirit of fear. And that's one thing we can't run away from. We can't be running away in a spirit of fear. That's, I think, one of the big mistakes is that we can fall into a spirit of fear. Uh God has not given us that spirit, but a spirit of love, power, and a sound mind. So we need a sound mind to discern, right? We need power to overcome it, and love to love everybody as we perhaps at points disagree and uh need to bring a gospel message to those that are stuck in the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. Um now there's a distinction between two worlds. One is the world of politics, you know, culture, uh, food, uh, beagles, dirt, farming, etc., business. There's that world, which, you know, it's okay. You can be in that world. We are all in that world. It's all right. But there's also the world that is the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. And the problem is this world of pride and lust tends to jump into the world of business or the world of politics and kind of just mess it all up. Does that mean we got to run away from the whole world and just crawl into a cave? No, no, no, no. We still engage in the world against the world. See, we're in the world against the world of lust and pride and flesh.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

And your starting point matters because if you run off and run into the cave, you're still bringing yourself with you. Yeah, that's a problem. So the the first the first starting point is that there's a problem inside here. That you're trying to keep the toxic, sinful nature of the outside coming in. It's already in. And so you you have to start there first.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

I've been watching a series on uh a fundamentalist uh Mormon cult that uh that really tried to escape sort of the outside world. But man, I don't think I saw more lust and pride operating in that in that you know uh lifestyle. Right. I mean, because I mean, just you know, as the as they went through the documentaries, they would interview, and I thought, wow, the the amount of lust and pride that just completely dominates in this separatist cult was just overwhelming. I thought it's as much as what you find in Hollywood, it's just it's just more well-dressed. That was the difference. They tended to have nice dresses, but boy, in terms of the influence of lust and pride, they are just dominating in this funnelist uh Mormon cult was overwhelming. So, yeah, I mean the bottom line is the world is there. Right. And just you know, separating yourself from the world of politics or business or culture is not going to help you.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

And I think there is a sense where we have to be careful that we don't give opportunities for our inside to attach to the outside and then make it even worse. So there is an argument to be made of some form of sheltering from the world. Now, we can need to do that.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

There is, and right, we need to talk about how to train our children to engage the world or the world's offerings in the right way. And I think balance, can I just start with balance? Balance, I believe, is key. Um, you can feed your kids with three categories of food. You could feed them a diet of veggies, fruits, grains, and real food. You could feed them with a diet of cotton candy or a diet of pure poison. So those are the three options. Most families would say probably the pure poison is out. Now, cotton candy, that's a question. Uh a diet of pure cotton candy, I think most everybody would say it's probably not going to be helpful. But uh, so so to me, it's a percentage. We have to work percentages here. How much should our kids be working versus entertaining themselves to death? How much family worship versus family entertainment? If you know it's a 10-minute family worship so that we can get to the two-hour movie, we can hardly wait to knock out this family worship, this boring family worship, so that we can get to family entertainment. Um, reading versus television, fiction versus nonfiction. You follow me? I mean, you've got to have balance in these things.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Kevin, I think the food analogy is really apropos because as I look back on uh what our parents invested in us, I realized what they were trying to do was form appetites. Yeah. And I'm so, so, so thankful for that. Appetites are formed at an early age. Uh funny thing happened just last night. I I pulled the sauerkraut out of the fridge because I actually really like sauerkraut. And I'm holding Hudson, my, you know, not even one-year-old, and I'm like, this is gonna be fun. Yeah. And I put a little piece of sauerkraut and kind of nibbled on it a little bit more, and then he kind of pushed it away for a few minutes. And then I sat him down in the high chair and I gave him a whole pile of sauerkraut right on his tray. And before you know it, it was fist after fist. And at one year of age, this boy is eating sauerkraut. And you know what? It was jalapeno sauerkraut. What? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

The point is This is Hudson, though. You have to understand Hudson will eat any. He can handle this.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

But the point is, appetites are being formed at that early of an age. And so uh to have parents that were thoughtful in what are our children going to develop in terms of appetites, that understanding that that's going to determine the kinds of things they feed themselves for years to come. I'm so thankful that they had that perspective.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Bill, um I think some families they they they just they're piling cotton candy on their kids' plates. No, obviously, analogies here, right? Analogy for uh sitting down and watching cartoons for four hours a day, or whatever it might be. Um what's the problem? Why would they put a pile of cotton? Again, probably wouldn't. I would say your average family is not going to put a pile of cotton candy on a kid's plate for breakfast, lunch, and uh half a dinner. I I I'm guessing they would not do that. Right. Why? Because they're discerning, right? Most parents are discerning about that. But what about television? What about media? Are they thinking through this? Why or why are they not thinking through this?

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah, I I think it takes a tremendous amount of discernment and and it takes work, right? It's I we all know, I mean, I've seen it where parents go out to dinner and they have a couple little children, they just put a you know a movie thing in front of them because that's their way of keeping them quiet. I mean, they have their little iPad and they're watching, and I think, oh wow, there's there's other ways to to get them to be quiet to train, but you can't just go to the easy thing. Or, you know, if you had placed sauerkraut and gummy bears and he tasted this and tasted this, my guess is he would have pushed this aside and and started eating this. So you have to you have to have discernment as to uh to what's important. And but it remember it's gonna take some work. It takes work to get your to to get your children to grow up, to teach them uh these things. And we've got to give them good choices. And then you speak of when you give a child a choice and they make the wrong choice, then you go back and you analyze and say, well, what do you think? You know, you you had two choices there, you chose this. What what what did that end up? Where did that go for you?

SPEAKER_02 10:06

How much of the world? That's that's a great question. When they're three years old, when they're six years old, when they're 14, 18. That's huge. That's a discerning wow. Yeah. How much now? Our curriculum approach with generations is you don't toss Homer at them at 10 years of age. You do not give them Shakespeare or Hawthorne at 14. You wait until they're 17 to 18. And that that's on the wisdom of the church fathers. And uh, of course, that's a little keep the faith on uh education and popular culture. I put that together for that reason because there's a lot of wisdom, there's a ton of wisdom that come from some great pastors in the past who said, you know, when they're young, you give them the word of God. You be sure that they are rooted, grounded in the word of God. And uh so I mean, the degree to which you would let them watch E.T. Right at 12 years of age, or um your average Disney cartoon at seven years of age, uh, are they ready to discern it? I think that's a good that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

You you need to be careful that one child may be ready and another not. This idea that at five years we do this, at seven we do this, and at ten, you have to be careful with that. But you have to watch to see how your children are reacting to an introduction may of uh uh of something. One child may do well with it, another one you're like pulling them back, like, oh boy, look at that heart just gravitated uh to the evil part of that movie rather than seeing the four good things of that movie.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

One of the rules that our family incorporated was that we do it together. Yes, we just do it together, and that's the the family integrated form of watching so that we can turn off, so that we can comment, uh you know, so that we can interact with what's being taught. Also, when introducing new genres, as in C.S. Lewis or what have you, much better to read it out loud. And I would include Laura Engels-Wilder's books. Uh, you know, if you're going to introduce those sorts of genres, I believe is great for moms and dads. Because here's what happens when you say unplug and you're listening to music together or reading a book together, it seems to me you as a parent, there's a higher level of discernment for yourself as well as for everybody else. Right. I think you maintain a higher level of responsibility. Does that make sense? You know, and I can remember times in which we I I would watch, you know, uh what I thought to be a kind of a neat little PG movie when I was in college. Uh, bring this out for my kids. Okay, let's watch this. And then you're watching it, you're going, oh man, uh uh, you know, I think they changed this. I think they added some things here since 1984 when you know this movie was first produced. You know, tell you what, um, let's let's watch something else. But why? Why? Because your level of discernment as a parent, I think does, you know, increase as as you begin to realize your responsible. And I think your spiritual maturity, perhaps, and your level of discernment, ability discern has improved uh since your college days. So I I can remember some of that.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

I don't know if any of you can relate to any of that, but uh I I think the opposite is actually possible too, where where parents can become desensitized uh to really they they don't actually realize the subtle influence that things can have on your children. Um and and one of the verses that applies here is first Corinthians 15 33, do not be deceived. Evil company corrupts good habits. Apparently, there's a tendency on our part to become deceived and naive about the way that the world can influence. And I remember at age six when we went to Russia, uh, you know, the the billboards, you know, those kinds of things really started impacting me at a very young age. My thought battle started at six. Okay. So let's let's not be naive about this as parents. These things can impact children at a very young age.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

You're right. And and in Japan, same thing. Yeah. I mean, in Japan, nudity on posters, you know, right down these these uh alleyways in which I was delivering newspapers at over 13 or 14 years of age. Oh yeah. And uh and I there was some offensive stuff, yeah, that uh occurred. And I think I think if dads would just interact right away, and the the key thing is there's there's a sort of anecdote. It's supposed to be a little bit funny. My dad taught me how to swim the old-fashioned way, took me out in the middle of a lake, threw me in. Swimming the shore wasn't bad. It was getting out of the gunny sack, was harder for me. You know, it's supposed to be funny, but but I think in a spiritual sense, we need to be very careful. We're not doing that with our kids. Yeah. I mean, we gotta we gotta swim with them. We gotta be down there in the ocean with them, swimming side by side with them uh for you know every year up until they're 17, 18 years of age. We we we have got to be sitting side by side uh with them. I remember when one movie came out very popular uh among a lot of Emily's friends. This was when she was probably 15 or 16 years of age, and she just said, Well, my friends are running out and watch this movie. And I said, Okay, well, let's go watch it together. And so we went and watched the movie together. And then we did a uh I think two or three segments of uh Generations broadcast on which we father and daughter interacted uh back and forth on that particular movie. And I think that that's the key. The key is to watch together and uh and and be as discerning as you can possibly be when it comes to these worldly influences.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

So and I I think that together applies even if if it's good things. I mean, you have to be careful. You know, children can uh go do good things, but if they continually do them by themselves, by themselves, by the way, it becomes not a good thing. The isolation they could be listening to good music and then go run 20 miles, and they maybe just wanted to run the 20 miles to escape uh from being with people.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Escapism and isolationism is a big part of the modern media zeigeist. It's uh it's been hugely damaging, right? Hugely damaging. And uh that's why I I do believe we need to unplug and listen to music together as families. And uh, you know, I wasn't doing that early on, but uh I finally came to the realization that this is unhealthy to do things by ourselves. The other aspect of this is accountability. Somebody asked me again, I get this question often how old should my children be when they get their first iPhone? Uh, even with all the filters and all the rest. And I I I I here's one of the principles that ties in, and that is transparency. Right. There are some children, and I can say I was this way early on, where I would not I would not walk in the light, you know, and I I'll give you an example. Um can I confess? Okay, so I'm like 14 years of age, something like that. And um one evening, it was like six or seven o'clock at night, I think to myself, I would really like some Pepsi. Pepsi. Pepsi. I'm confessing, now I'm really confessing. I went out and bought a full liter of Pepsi at a neighborhood mom and pop store. And I crawled back into the house and I hid it behind the dresser in our bedroom. And I I had a little Pepsi by the other night for a while. So I'm just confessing. Now, if you have a son like me and you discover a liter of Pepsi behind his dresser, it's a concern. Are you with me? I mean, it's a concern. There are there are some children that are just way more like, bah, this is who I am.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Why are you hiding? Why are you hiding? The first question is why are you drinking Pepsi instead of coke? But the second question is why are you hiding?

SPEAKER_02 17:50

That's an issue. You're right. That is an issue. We'll talk about that offline. But the the important thing here is that I'm not walking in the light. Yeah. I'm not being transparent. You got a son like that, you don't give him an iPhone. You give him an iPhone, and and you you got the rules. You lay out the rules, these are transparency rules. Um, we're gonna be we're actually going to every Saturday at 9 a.m. Go to be checking your history. If you erase your history, you don't get the cell phone for the next six months.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

You know, that kind of thing. I think so.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yeah, you know, and I think or of course the filters and all the rest.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

But we introduced the iPhone with my children when it became necessary for work for my sons. That was the right. So then they have a purpose of that phone besides just, oh, now I get to connect with my friends and play games. So work was the first one. Um, then one of my daughters, I had to do it because she started going somewhere and we wanted the ability to communicate with her.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

So it wasn't so much as work, but did you trust did you trust your children at this point?

SPEAKER_01 18:48

I did the the one with the son, uh to to that it was work-related. The the one daughter, there was still some trust issues. So then we had a special type of phone. Uh, it wasn't connected to the internet. Yeah, so it still gave us the accountability. Where are you? It had location, but there was no internet to it. Yeah. And then there was uh lots of parent parental controls. I would get texts when it said this is a concerning text, so I would get a copy of it, like if it had certain words in it. I didn't know that. Oh, yeah, those, yeah. So that was the type of phone this this girl got. But we did need it because she was she was gone away from us sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

So right, yeah, right. Uh Danny, your thoughts on uh on media. I mean, this is the biggie, right? The the degree to which our children have access to worldly media.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

I mean, I made the comment off air that it's hard to overprotect in the area of media. I mean, I I just that's just my fundamental conviction, knowing the simpleness of my own heart and and children. But the thing I would want to say is let's not fall into the trap of thinking that you can achieve holiness by subtraction. Um, you know, we just pull all the bad things out of our life, and that's gonna be holiness. Right. What I think of is again, my parents, my dad just did not like video games. And there wasn't a rule in the Craig House which which said thou shalt not play video games, but it was just this you just you just knew he didn't like it, and it was just constant constantly discouraged, and and there was not a lot of opportunity created for it. And here I am, you know, you know, in my 30s, and I'm so thankful that he made that tough call early on because I know that appetite would have been formed if he had let us do a lot of that. And I'd have been the you know, the average video gamer now, 37 or whatever it is you talk about the stat, that would have been me, right? And and so not only did he discourage that, but then he gave us lots of good things. Right. And that's probably the other thing I would say is okay, if if you're gonna pull the media, then what are the good things? What are the the exciting activities, uh, the trips, the projects? Um, dad, dad was just a master at finding all sorts of interesting good things for us to do with our time, work opportunities, apprenticeships. I worked in an upholstery shop, my brothers worked in a wood shop, locksmithing, all these very interesting things that uh honestly we just we just enjoyed. And I see the same thing with my kids now. Uh they're moving to Legos and Kinex and good books and science and history. And I think the point there is uh discourage the things that are not as good, and then really encourage the things that are better.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

How do we discern how does the average family come to good decisions on this? Uh obviously, husband, wife, should there be unity there? Um, do you seek for for counsel from others? Um how how do we navigate this extremely difficult area of your worldly engagement?

SPEAKER_01 21:44

I think you have to consider your own weaknesses and your own past in your own sense. Yeah, no, understand that your your children may have a tendency to be weak in the same area. So I I would I would look at that first and say, you know what, we're gonna we're gonna stay away from these kinds of things. Areas. You know, other families might be able to do this and do it well. We're going to go a different direction. That would be the first thing that I would look at as my own my own past. But also I think you're constantly discerning in in and going back and forth, as in let me make I'm not making myself clear. So you know what? We thought this might be a good thing, but it's just not working. Let's pull it back. So you have to be right. I mean to weave and dodge a little bit too. Don't be set in your ways that this is always right, this is always wrong, unless it's just really evil things.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yeah. Okay. And and unity with your do you have discussions on these sorts of things with that?

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Yeah, we just have a situation recently. Uh uh, we we got a pair of headphones for the piano. And then before you know it, Katie's using the headphones for her stories because we're not trying to distract the kids during school. And then before you know it, Katie's walking around the house with headphones on for two hours a day. And so we just kind of step back and said, all right, well, we went on a walk for 45 minutes, Meg and I, and talked through this. We had slightly different perspectives, but we got to uh okay, well, let's let's do 30 minutes while the kids are doing school. Yeah. And then uh let's let's just play the music in general, let's play the stories. So, yeah, some conversations. I sat down with Katie and I said, Hey Katie, we we just imagine if we were a family five ten years from now and and all of the kids are are are walking around the house with headphones for eight hours a day. What what kind of a family would that be? Not not good. So we we don't want to go that direction. Let's let's be a family together, let's readjust this into each other.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Great illustration. Love the illustration. I get back to to the principle of balance. I I think for parents to just have a thoughtful, intentional, prayerful discussion through what kind of family do we want to be? I mean, how much family worship? Yeah, you know, what's the focus of our family? Obviously, to worship, to glorify God, to praise God, to be worshiping God throughout the day. That's that's a focal point for us. Church plays a huge part in our family's life. Uh preparing for uh worship on a Sunday morning means we're off on media at 6 p.m. No more media, 6 p.m. Saturday night. I mean, that's the kind of thing we did as a family because that that worship is so key, so central to our family experience. But work versus rest, you know, how much are we gonna work? How much are we gonna rest? How much are we gonna read? We like reading more than we do video, YouTube, television, et cetera. But if the reading is all cotton candy, if we're back into cotton candy, back into you know the fantasy world, our kids are doing like 92% of their entertainment is the fantasy world. Now they're addicted to it, so we have an addiction issue because fantasy is the crack cocaine of literature. Um, we don't want them on that crack cocaine, and we have to be careful with crack cocaine literature, as in fantasy or science fiction. And um, so I think having a meaningful discussion on this family economy, as you've already mentioned, is huge. Um, you know, we've given this illustration before, but you can't be given a 10-year-old five hours of boring schoolwork and then rewarding him with nine hours of computer games the rest of the day. You just can't do that. That's that's a recipe for disaster. We all know that. Therefore, what? Therefore, family economy, therefore family ministry, therefore family service, therefore we have to gain a vision for something different. So, I mean, literally, what percentage of our times? How many hours a day will it be school? How much how many hours a day will it be entertainment versus family worship versus family economy? We we have to be asking these questions, otherwise gonna be sucked into the world's zeitgeist.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

And we have to give our children choices. I think one of the dangers of the homeschooling family, especially baker families, if I can say that, is that things become based on efficiency. And so that ends up with mom telling everybody what they're going to do, what they're gonna wear, what they're gonna do with their time, and their even schedules are the five minutes, and the children just kind of follow what they're supposed to do and go do it. And they're never given choices in life. And I literally seen 17, 18-year-old, they come out in the world and they've never really had to make a choice. They don't know how to discern what's good or evil because they've been told everything to do. So I'm a big proponent of you have a two-year-old and you're getting them ready for church on Sunday. You have a red dress and a blue dress. Which one would you like to wear today? You know, and and then we'll we'll talk about it. The choice, maybe, maybe not in dresses, but something else is a little bit more good or bad, then we talk about the choices. Or sometimes you let them make a bad choice with your protection on it, and then you talk about it on the other side. But your children have to learn that life is full of choices. Choose you this day whom you will serve. And so we have to we have to guide our children through choosing the Lord every day.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yeah. Well, friends, good wisdom here today on this uh segment of Discipleship for Dads. Uh, do we protect them? Do we overprotect them? And I think the the answer is we walk with them, we disciple them, we uh we train their appetites, we um we love our children, we want the very best for them, we think in terms of wisdom, what's the wise balance of cotton candy versus a regular diet? I'm I'm not saying that points once a year, once every three years, perhaps cotton candy at the local county fair. I'm not saying we can't, right? But it's not gonna be every day.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

Yeah, and and the goal in all of this is that we want to prepare our children. So it's not just protection for the sake of protection. Right. There's a goal of preparation so that our children can live lives that are fruitful for the glory of God.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

I I remember an advertisement early on it was about the internet, and it was at Microsoft or somebody, and their excuse me, their byline was where do you want to go today? That like literally you have your phone, and where you can go wherever you want to go. And I thought that was a great line because that's what our children need to understand. Where do I want to go today?

SPEAKER_02 28:06

And make discerning decisions as to the best place to go. At the end of the day, we want our children to engage in the world such that they realize their objective is to get out into the world to disciple the world for Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

That's why I want to do.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Uh we, you know, have taken our kids out to the 60th Street Mall at times, and we've done some evangelism. Remember one time my son was engaging in a conversation with some Muslims, and um he had a problem. I was right there, so he called me over and I completed the conversation with them, and it was helpful, but you know, he got stuck. And uh, we've had a number of you know, neighbors and different worldviews uh coming into our home. Uh we've invited unbelievers into the home for uh hospitality and such. And so an opportunity for our children to watch and see how we engage uh with the world and uh how our intent is to evangelize. And uh my mom once said, if more of the world is rubbing off on you than you rubbing off on them, then you're probably in the wrong position. Uh and so so it's for us to demonstrate how we do this with our children. We don't escape the world, we're out to overcome the world and to disciple the world for Jesus. So uh so that somehow we've got to be able to walk our kids through that. And uh so we're not escaping the world, we're not conforming to the world, we're overcoming the world. That's our position as believers, and that's what we're training our kids to do. Friends, you've been listening to Discipleship for Dads as a segment of the Generation's Ministry. This is Kevin Swanson, Danny Craig, and Bill Roach inviting you back again next time as we continue to lay down a vision for the next generation. This has been a production of the Generations Media Network. For more information, go to generations.org slash media.