She Acquired Her First 10K App Members with $0 in Ads: Sam Cutler on the Modern Marketing Mind

The smartest brands are building community before anything else. 

In this episode of Brandidly Speaking, we sit down with Sam Cutler, founder of Mindfull, a wellness platform focused on replacing calorie counting with nutrition intelligence. Sam used her online community of half a million women to convert her first 10k members with NO ad spend. In this conversation, we discuss what it really takes to turn a lived experience into a technology platform. From her experience, Sam shares how to listen to your community first, validate that demand, and build with purpose. 

If you’re interested in building an online community, how AI can enhance human connection, and why creators are emerging as some of the most strategic founders in the room, this episode is for you. 

New podcast episodes drop every Wednesday, hosted by Cris Gordon, Head of Beauty at MMC.  

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

How did you hit 10,000 members with zero ad specs? I kind of did it the opposite way. They told me what they wanted, and we built and scaled from there, and that's honestly it. So the reality is listening to the customer, validating what they're saying through the actual product, and then from there, just keep listening to them.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

But in your world of wellness and making women feel good, where's the line?

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Show your real freaking human. And what we're going to crave is human protection. What we're going to crave is real people, real stories. So the companies that will win in the next five to ten years, they're going to be the companies that consider both polarizing sides. Real people, real communities, real stories. Show that because the AI doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

They don't have that story to tell. Welcome to a new episode of Brandedly Speaking. Today we sit down with Sam Cutler, founder and CEO of Mindful. She unpacks what it means to go from creator to tech founder. She talks all about how she built a genuine and authentic community and she peels back the curtain on what it really takes to build a brand in public and to be vulnerable while also making sure that you're scaling a company smart. Can't wait for you to listen. It's a brand new day, and you know what that means. It's time for another episode of Brandedly Speaking with your host, Moi, Chris Gordon. Today we sit down with Sam Cutler, founder of Mindful. I'm so excited to jump in because I have a lot of questions for you, girl. All right, I'm gonna just cut to the chase here. You have an amazing app. You've started in the world of tech after a crazy, crazy story of being a creator and kind of showing your journey vulnerably. But how did you hit 10,000 members with zero ad spend? It's a huge accomplishment. And I like want to know what you did first. And then we can talk about everything with mindful and how you actually got there. But that alone is unbelievable. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Oh my gosh. Um it's been a journey, as you said, and building something out of nothing is kind of the coolest thing to do, in my opinion. And building something with people that really care about what you're creating is even cooler. And that's honestly how we've been able to scale and build what we've built. So, backstory to anyone listening that's like, how the hell do you do that with no paid advertising, nothing spent? I've been a creator for the past like 11 years now. And I built a social media following that was literally our exact customer without even knowing it. And I now have a community of over half a million women around the world. And through my journey of sharing my health story, slowly what has become mindful, a health tech app for women, evolved from listening to that community. And a lot of people do it the opposite way. They think of a problem to solve, they think of a gap in the market, and they go out and build a product, and then they spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars in some cases, trying to figure out who that customer is to fit them into the product and speak to that customer. I kind of did it the opposite way. And I said, I didn't even say they told me what they wanted, and we built and scaled from there. And that's honestly it. And also just really good content that actually is what relates to what you're creating.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

What's the content that is resonating the best with the audience and converting?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

It's always different, you know, it does sort of cycle because you're not just playing into what your customer wants to see, but you're also playing into Instagram and social media algorithms as a whole. So that's something to consider. And it's it's it's a bit of a balancing act because it's always changing. So you're kind of evolving with that naturally. But ultimately, I think you said it in the intro like people want to see real vulnerable stuff. And they also want to see something that fixes a problem. Tell me about what I have or what I'm feeling or what I'm lacking and how you've solved that problem for yourself. And now you can offer me a solution that does that. And tell me, like, that is where I think we're gonna see a big gap as we move forward over the next three, five years with the rise of AI, AI creators. You can't come back and tell a story if you've never actually lived that story. And that's where creators and founders that really speak candidly and share their authentic, vulnerable selves will relate to their customer. And that's really the stuff that we see. Whether you put it as a trend or you, you know, you do with three tips, whatever it is, but you have to find how you connect to their emotional side.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Absolutely. And I think it's really interesting what you said about the rise of AI. And I think that so many people have been wondering like, will I still be relevant? Will my job still be relevant? And you bring up a great point about how you can still leverage AI, but also need to have openness, a personality behind a brand, a personal brand that's being leveraged, a connection to a community. And that can't all be done through AI. So, how are you like striking the balance with your app? And I know that there's so much more to come with the app and the next iterations of it, and we'll get more to that. But when any company leverages AI in any capacity for efficiencies, for their actual tech build, how do they make sure that they balance with the fact that like you also need to have real community? And that is being cultivated through somebody, a person, people, multiple people, a team, but it can't always be replaced with AI.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

The thing is that AI removes the human connection. Regardless, if you make, you know, like I said, an AI creator, somebody that represents that ideal figure or evangelist of the brand, whoever that is, you have to have a real story and a real problem because you're still solving a problem for real people. And until that AI is solving for AI, which is which is something, right? As you're building in tech or you're or you have AI agents that are being trained, and that's a whole other story. And we'll need Trevor, my husband, and CTO on that one, because that's his specialty. But really, I think what you can do right now and what every single brand should be doing, everything is talking on social about how you need to be diving into AI. And there's two parts of AI there's AI for building, for optimizing for scaling, or whether you're actually using like these tools that help optimize your performance and your business, or you're using AI builders and coders, or you're actually integrating AI into your product. So whether that's the experience for the customer within tech or you know, ordering online with food, whatever it is. The flip side of that needs to be the complete opposite, which is community, IRL, real connection, real people. If you only, and we're only seeing this conversation, don't forget AI, focus on AI, learn AI, learn how it plays into your company, optimize, et cetera. But we're not seeing the extreme because we know and we see it, whether it's from it doesn't matter. Every single thing that swings so hard one way swings back the other.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

And what we're going to crave is human connection. What we're going to crave is real people, real stories. So the companies that will win in the next five to 10 years, three to five years with the speed that we're building at, they're going to be the companies that consider both polarizing sides of real people, real community, real stories, and how they integrate that into a very sticky product where people are literally like obsessed, hooked. And then how they leverage AI to optimize and really actually create efficiency in their day-to-day workflow, but also within the product and for the customer.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

How are you winning in not only just building community, but making sure that your customer does feel heard? Like that personal touch. Where do you think that mindful is winning the most?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

So from the very beginning, as I said, we've scaled with our customer and everything we've done has been listening to them. So they are heard above all else. I do not build anything until I listen to the customer and what they want because literally this entire company was built off of a bunch of people DMing me and asking me to take them on as their health coach. And I was like, yeah, I'm a creator. That doesn't sound very realistic. Let me throw up a PDF meal plan. Like everything has been scaled. That turned into a Squarespace site. That turned into a white-labeled version of an app that we tested again before investing hundreds of thousands of dollars into building a custom app and then now into a custom build. But everything we've done has been what do you guys want? What do you actually need? And then what is the minimum viable product in tech? We call it the MVP that we can ship, that we can get out there for you to actually test what you're saying is true, right? Because if 10 people say it, 10,000 people say it, you need to still validate it, it doesn't matter. So the reality is listening to the customer, validating what they're saying through the actual product. And then from there, just keep listening to them and have a safe space for them to communicate with you and have a stream of communication. So for us, that's we have community built into the app. So everything that we love because I'm on the app is so good.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

And it's like helped me in my health journey.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

That makes me so happy. And everything that, like if I can't get out of bed a day and you just feel so tired and so, you know, everybody has those days. Every founder has those days, every person has those days. The thing that gets me out is I have a little folder and it's just community. It's like wins and healing stories and the women that couldn't get pregnant that did, and that had, you know, hormonal imbalance issues, or that, you know, finally learned how to cook for their mom in the hospital. Like those are the stories I'm pulling up every single day when I just need the encouragement. And those are stories coming through community. So having a stream of income or a stream of having a stream of conversation. And I think what's really important is having this trusted safe space because there's a lot of focus on tell your story, be in the public eye, build in public as a founder, heal in public, which is what I say as a creator. That's a big part of how I built what I've done, healing publicly. But I don't think women need to throw open their camera and tell their most vulnerable health stories. I did, but not everybody needs to do that or wants to do that. So, how do we create a safe space where they feel like they can talk about their period and PCOS and fertility issues in a protected community that wants them to feel better, that wants them to win? That's not when you throw up a video and you're like, hey guys, I'm feeling amazing. I built these muscles. They're like, oh, just because of this, or I lost weight, oh, it's because of Ozempic, or it's whatever, whatever it is. Like, why is someone dismissing your win? Have a safe space for that and let people, you know, come to that safe space. And I think that's really where every brand that doesn't have this, like, stop throwing around the world community without actually creating the community. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

And that takes people being leaders in the community. It does. And I think that social media can be so polarizing. And it sounds like from what you've created, is this safe space within a social media platform ultimately, right? So the tech build that you have is also a platform where people can be social, they can socialize, they can talk to each other, they can tell their stories, and they don't feel judged. And you brought up something interesting that I want your take on because you are a founder of a tech company and you're also a creator. And as you mentioned, there are things now that there's a such thing as an AI creator, right? There is an avatar, a oh, a woman who has sometimes maybe an unrealistic look, everything from like their hair to their makeup. I know in the beauty world we're seeing it a lot where it's like people are even going to makeup artists and being like, Do my hair like them? And makeup artists like, is that that's AI? So like that's really hard to replicate exactly, or that makeup look is AI. So for me to do that when you have real pores and real skin textures that we need to consider is creating almost like this false narrative around what beauty even is. In the wellness world, we have these AI avatars and these AI creators that are also like these, you know, what I think the world has standardized as quote unquote perfect, that are now popping up. And it's almost making women feel imperfect or feeling like their body is not good enough or that their hair, their makeup, anything is not good enough. Now I know that it's a tactic that companies are using, right? To get their products out there or to be, you know, the avatar of like even their own personal brand because it could like sell without them needing to be present on social media. So I understand all the reasons why it's happening and I think it's controversial for a reason also. But in your world of wellness and making women feel good, where's the line?

SPEAKER_01 12:43

We're not new to unrealistic beauty standards or physical standards on social media because we've had FaceTune for years, we've had tools that people have been using to change the way that they look, to throw up something on social media. And by the way, it didn't come from social media, it came from magazines, it came from hairbrushing. Like, oh yeah, this is since the beginning of media. Yeah. But the reality when it comes to AIs, first of all, I think that it becomes the responsibility of social platforms to identify it, to identify AI creators, to identify, like that are not real people. I don't care what platform that is, it should be identified. Or if people are modifying themselves, I think it should be identified. That's one thing. That's a big hill to climb, but it's something that that is being worked on. I think that right now we're seeing a lot more accounts expose this also on the flip side. There's one that came up for me that I thought of right away when you mentioned this. And obviously, there's like this big focus on the before and after trends with body. And listen, you've gone through your own healing and and you know, physical changes. I've gone through my own physical changes and healing stories and health. What matters is what's changing inside and what you feel. Absolutely. On the outside, that's what other people see, and that's the win. And in a reality, we live in a visual world. So that becomes the like attractive piece because that's how we communicate on social media. We're sharing videos and photos. We're not just sitting there giving up, you know, information about, hey, I feel good today, and this is my win, and this is. So we have to have the two work together. But there's a lot of these AI videos where it'll be somebody standing in the room. I don't know if you've seen this. So they're standing in the room and they're like, I'm gonna lock in for 24 months or whatever. And then they like jump and it's like them in the ripped body and like the old shorts that are really baggy, da-da-da. But there's a bunch of accounts that are exposing this, and they're like, look at the background. The guy didn't move his shoes until he formed that.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

So wait, but then also I love the internet people like literally the trolls that are like trolling, but for a good reason. We're exposing. Yeah, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Like, as the consumer, we have to get smarter. Marketing gets smarter, we have to get smarter, right? And this has to be exposed. And some of this comes from social media accounts that do this, but some of it has to come from us questioning things. We're so fast to question real people's stories, but we're so quick to accept the perfect polished versions that we see when somebody tells us, Hey, I actually went through this, we're like, ugh, easy for you to say you had this handed to you, this happened. This is why it was easier for you. And then we see an AI thing and we believe it. So we have to get smart. And also at the end of the day, as a consumer, you have to be okay with what you're accepting. Like that's the reality. Because if you're going to constantly let that into your feed, let that into your space, like the more you engage with it, the more it's going to come to you. Yeah. And the only way to get around that as the creator side is exactly what I said. Show you're a real freaking human. Like we are real people, we have real stories, we have real bodies, we have real pimples, we have real bloating. Show that because the AI doesn't. They don't have that story to tell.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Do you feel like because you are really a creator-turned tech founder, that you've had your fair share of scrutiny on social, I'm sure. And your life has kind of been building in public and you've done that. And I also think that it's a sacrifice to do that too, for the greater good, right? To be able to be vulnerable and share your story because you know how many people it can help. It's like that is the that's your motivation for building. I know that it is a passion of yours to build this company. And so you do whatever you have to do to do that. And sometimes that means getting uncomfortable, maybe being in the public eye even more than you have to, and having your life opened up to scrutiny. But you are also kind and beautiful and fit and all of the things. And so, do you ever get scrutinized because people that don't listen to your story or see the full picture are now coming after you just because now they're seeing you at the top? Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

It depends on the room, transparently. It depends on what they know me for or how they know me. I think at the end of the day, I have the receipts of what I've been through. And you just have to balance the flow of showing that it literally ties back to the exact same thing about showing the real thing. I think look, the more you can show how human you are, the more relatable you can be. And especially in the tech world, there has been, and especially in the startup world, there has always been this stigma around fake it till you make it. Don't talk about how you're maybe burnt out, don't talk about how you're tired, don't talk about how you lost that deal. Don't talk about how you're struggling to get the right employee in the right place. Because what if a founder, an investor sees it? What if another founder sees it? That's your competition. That's like, oh week, great, I can beat you. There's been so much pressure to never show up as a real human being. And this space has only started to be like this has only really been disrupted. Startup founders are real founders, tech founders are real founders. I'm going to say what I'm going to say. Once women started to disrupt the space, because it used to be a oh, mine's mine's better, mine's this, mine's that. And now we're seeing women with more empathetic, and this is very generalized, I get it. But we're seeing women come up in tech that are like, hey, I'm a mom and this sucks. I'm going to pump in the bathroom and then I'm running into an investor meeting. I'm not perfect. And if that's why you're not going to invest in me or you're not going to take a risk on me, then you're not for me. And we're seeing that change the space, but it's been, it's been, it's been boys' club, and it's been like, hey, just show off what you already have. What what do you need the other people for? The investors, the growth. If you've already got it all, isn't that the point?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah. And it's become your competitive advantage, I would say. The fact that you lived this life of being a creator for 11 years, built a business, have an audience that's engaged that you can test things with, that for a long time, people would just put down, like, oh, just another creator that's created a brand. I'm sure you've heard that in the years, right? Like, oh, why do we need another brand created by a creator? But this is not a brand that's created by a creator. It's a brand started by a tech founder who has a community because you were a creator. And it's become your advantage that you have this community that you have been vulnerable, that you've had that you've been able to build in public, share the ups and the downs. And so, how have you used that to your advantage in growing and starting to get investors? Like, where have you been playing that card in a strategic way?

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Listen, anyone who still says, Oh, they're just a creator, they're just an influencer, they're out of touch with what's happening right now because anybody who doesn't matter for the people in the back. What is going on? Yeah. Anyone that doesn't have a community and doesn't have a following and people watching what they're doing, I don't care if it's on LinkedIn or TikTok, I don't care what your platform is, pick your poison. But if anyone is scrutinizing that, it's because they're not, they don't have their hand on the pulse. They don't know what's happening. They don't have to stand down where the market is going.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

And everybody's trying to get it. Every founder all of a sudden is building in public and being the face of, and I listen, go get it. That's what you should be doing. But I sure as hell hope you weren't the people two years ago being like, ha ha ha, my friend from home posting her makeup videos. Well, your friend from home is paying for her mortgage with those makeup videos.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Because she didn't stop posting. And because people like you kept commenting and laughing at her, and guess what? It only helps her videos perform more. So, you know, whichever way you come at it, I have an audience and a community that I can test at scale for free. So now, if I want to go out and raise money, I built a business bootstrapped off of revenue coming in the door. I used my money as a company, what came in the door from my community from day one to make sure that it was the right product. Guess what I didn't do? Build something, spend hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, and then try to find somebody that wants it. Now, if you give me my your money, I will know exactly what I'm doing with it. I know exactly what video converts. I know exactly what content is going to move the needle for the company. And I have people ready to test at scale on anything.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

And the data to back it up.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

We got the data to back it up, but we also can throw something at community. Hey, do you guys want this? Yes or no? Literally within the city.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

And how many people are in the community now?

SPEAKER_01 22:02

We have 10,000 members. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

And we have women in over 120 countries around the world.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Huge demographic.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

And what about the age demo? The age demo is mostly 30s to 40s. Okay. Very broad. But then we also have college girls and we also have women in their 60s and 70s. Yeah. It's women's.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

You've got a wide range. And probably women dealing with a lot of different health issues, a lot of different concerns, hormonal changes. So you've got a really big demo to test things on. And you could probably even break them into subcategories to test things, which I'm sure you have. And so when you talk about MVP, correct? Minimal viable product. Is that what it is? See, look at me learning. I hope everyone out there is learning. I hope everyone out there is learning as much as I am every single moment that I am with Sam Cutler. What are the products that you've tested that have been a win? And have there been ones that were a bust? Tons. Okay. Let's hear.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

I just talked about this with two girlfriends I was with. We were talking about how nobody sees all the crap and the failures before that you went through. All the things you launched that didn't work, all this. I posted about this recently. Gosh, I think I went back to like my first business as like a jewelry business. And I went into why each one worked and why each one didn't. Um, the things that didn't work, first of all. I mean, look, you can't just assume that a community will buy any product. I learned that really quick. We launched first like product as a creator, let's say, not, you know, not going back too far. But as a creator, the first product I launched was a fit planner because everything I was talking about was like habits, planning, and it was this planner. We still sell it today. We sell it all the time. People are constantly ordering this planner. Do you have this planner? I don't have it. I need it. Okay, hold on. You're gonna need this planner. We I I really want to like relaunch this planner and build it into maybe build it into the product a little bit, actually, into the tech side. But it's kind of like, to be honest, it has a lot of similarities to what we do at Mindful. It's about rinse and repeat habits until they become like fundamentally part of you. And that's kind of the the purpose of it. So that sold really well. Great win. Oh my gosh, amazing. Everybody loves this. Now we have these fit girl walk groups. Let's launch, let's get sweatsuits. Our walks were sold out. We had 200 people on wait lists. These were community walks. This is again long before mindful, during the pandemic. Oh, well, if we're having 200 people coming to these walks, we're gonna sell these sweatsuits like crazy. Launching sweatsuits, I was like, oh, we got to go organic. I talk about your food. We've got to get sustainably sourced, organic died, no wasted fabrics made in the US. Guess what? They didn't care because the price point was way too high to actually go and do all of that. And you know what my audience and community wanted? They want something that made them better. Sweatsuit, cute, nice to have, need to have, optimize my health. And then we thought, oh, this is the community that actually wants to take action even better. They're gonna do something. So those are just examples of is that why the walks were so successful? Because they were like, we want to have one next week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

I love it. I see. I've seen you do the walks all over the world.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

I saw. I love our walks, but that's the community piece, right? Those are so successful. Like action. You're right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

And so there's about, I mean, other failures. Um we've launched And you fail fast there.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Like, what do you do? Like, walk me through you didn't sell out, like you took the L, it was a$10,000 loss. It was only a$3,000 loss. Like, just walk me through like the real, real. Look, I'm really big on making the most out of every failure. So am I. I get it. I'm like failing forward. There's nothing to do.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Do something about it. Um we sold, we sold quite a bit of them, but then I was sitting on a lot of inventory. And at the end of the day, like, look, honestly, we still sell them sometimes. Like I I mean, I'm gonna buy one. Also, you know, what is going on? I'm setting the biggest bundle. But this is all TFF stuff, like from my social media. And that's the other thing is like you can love somebody's social media, but do you want a hoodie with their name on it, or whatever it is? So, and this was again four or five years ago. Yeah. But but you're learning this as you go. Okay, how do we do giveaways? How do we get this in bags? How do we get people because people love the product, but the price point was so high, but we couldn't really change much because that's how much it costs to make them. Yeah. And so that's the kind of thing. Like you just have to think, okay, I invested this. Let's say it costs you like 10,000, 30,000, whatever it is. I think it ended up, I think it costs us like 30 or 40,000, to be honest, to make sweatsuits. And if you're gonna take that and think, like, okay, what would I have done with that money? Like, what's the opportunity cost? Can I use that as marketing budget? Put those in swag bags, send them out to um, you know, well, now it's like, you know, potential customers or whatever it is. Anytime somebody's getting married, you better believe they're getting a white sweatsuit. They're a bride. Like, use that to your advantage. And so that's what we did from there on out. It was like, you know, um, giveaways or whatever. I just physically. Yeah. Think about what you're doing with it and then pivot. Um, you know, I'm trying to think of like and how fast you suggest people pivot.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Like, yeah. It's it's I think sometimes with companies, it could be pretty detrimental if they wait too long to pivot.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Or and other times, if they pivot too fast, they haven't given a second for like the data to really compile. It's like, is there a sweet spot here?

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Okay, so in the story of that, I'm talking about specific products.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

A sugar-free sweet spot.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

What's the sweet spot?

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Um, no, we we like natural sugar, natural honey sweet spot. Um, look, I think that in that story it was product, it wasn't a company. So it was a little different. I was like, okay, I'm not sure I'm not closing down as a social media. Yeah. It maybe from a company perspective, it would be like if everything I'm posting, you know, is is a flop, but I can't sell product for brands or something like that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

But but other things were working in your brand. It's like you were able to do the collaboration, but yeah, you were doing advertising just for it.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Maybe you're selling a hundred of them instead of 500 of them. That's still like pretty good. I should have ordered a hundred of them. Like that's what you learn from it. I think here's what I think about pivoting fast. You're going to see a spike no matter what when you first launch something. Whether it's even eyeballs, let's just talk about eyeballs, maybe even announcing like a podcast or a new blog or something. Everybody's gonna pop up. I said blog, they're like Substack. Oh, this girl's so dating herself. You're gonna see a spike and then you're gonna see a dip. And then what you wanna see is that spike, that dip, and then you wanna see that gradual climb back up that goes higher than that initial spike. If you are seeing a spike in a dip and that dip is not going back up, that's when you start to pivot. And you need to think about that maybe in months, like in sales. If you're seeing sales the first week and then next week down, like down, down, down after, and you're doing everything you possibly can to kind of boost that within your reach. Like for me, it's not paying for ads because I just think you're trying to get new customers. But if you're looking at your customer and saying, okay, they they maybe don't really care about this, we're not going up, then you're at a point where you need to say, okay, now what do I do? Where do I pivot? Where do I change? And to me, that's like within three to like three, four months, you should know. It depends on how long. And like a mix of intuition and a mix of some data. I mean, I work a lot off intuition, but so do I. A lot of women do. I think it's a superpower. I'm a numbers person, but if the number's not there yet and I know there's a reason for it, and we have data that connects, but then I also have a feeling like my intuition is kind of a mix of community and intuition. Like I hear everybody talking about this. I sort of know this in my gut. Like, this is why let's hold off a little bit longer or let's like pivot here this way. But you know, you have to be, you have to be smart and think, okay, now what can you do with that loss? Like every loss is a win. Look, look, from nutrition side, and you've heard me say this a million times, I'm sure. When you go out and eat, something doesn't feel good. I say this so much. Stop looking yourself in the mirror and saying, you're a failure. You ate a bunch of crap, you don't feel good, you have an energy crash, you feel lethargic, you have a breakout. No, what you say is, huh, that felt not so great for me. Next time I go out and eat, I can order the same thing, but now I have data point to understand how that makes me feel. I can do it again and see if it still makes me feel that way, but I know that it's going to like I have a strong hypothesis that it will again. So if I do it again, be prepared to feel that way. Or now I can make a different choice. You can't make a different choice if you haven't done the first choice to know what the different one is. And if you don't do that one, the risk, whether it's ordering that thing or making the sweatsuits or whatever it is, you actually are just going off of someone else's story and someone else's experience. And you can read all the books, you can listen to all the podcasts, but that's not necessarily your customer, your community. So somebody else could have launched uh sweatsuits sold out in a day, right? Let's just say, Great, I'm gonna launch sweatsuits. Let's say this is me. Launch the sweatsuits, they're not selling. Okay, what did I learn? My community doesn't want sweatsuits, they want action. I learned something. Did I even take like this? You're like, what are the losses? I'm thinking of the losses. Yeah, there's financial loss there, but now let's work with it. I learned something. I'm not gonna get a sweatsuit.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

It's truly a gain because you've learned it's like a test and learn.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Exactly. If the sweatsuit sold out, I would just make more. We just tested with product. So obviously we're a tech app, but we have we wanted to test with product because our community was asking for product. And CPG is huge, obviously, in the health space. And back to the intuition. Like as a founder, I feel that again, the technology, the AI, the powering side, we're complimenting it with community, but community means IRL. I want to be in your kitchen with you from our product side. Like everybody wants to see how it's done, but let's empower them and be there to help them make it and have it done. So we launched a product called gut instinct, which is a hybrid gut powder protein powder. Now, this product was something that my community asked for. Oh, every protein powder sucks. It doesn't have the ingredients that I want. It makes me feel bloated. It doesn't help with my gut health. Then I'm listening to what else they're saying. They're talking about hormonal problems, they're talking about um all sorts of digestive issues. How can we add real ingredients without hormone disruptors that empower that power women to improve their energy, to support building lean muscle, and to improve their digestion. Okay, so we formulated something. Now what did I do? I created a test. I put this product out there, no paid marketing again, just to my community. And I said, huh, okay, here. This is what I built. Do you guys want this? What happened? We sold out of that product. And not only did we sell out, customers bought like six, seven, eight, one after another after another, because they didn't find anything on the market that satisfied what they wanted. It was exactly what they'd asked us for, but I could have said they've asked us for it. So let's order a hundred thousand units of it. I didn't do that. I did a smaller test. Great. It keeps flying off the shelves. You know what we're doing right now? We restock, so it's actually sold out, but we have pre-sale. Every day I have so many orders of pre-sale coming in. I'm actually a little nervous about the quantities that it ordered for restock. I'm like, oh, maybe it should have been more. It's gonna get here and everything's gone out of the warehouse. But that's okay. That's a good problem to have. But that was a test. So those are just two examples of keep doing it if it's working and just be cautious when you first jump into it. And I was way more cautious of that order for the protein powder. Right now I'm building a huge company. It matters. There are people that will care whether that works or doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Yeah. And you were able to kind of test that in a situation where it wasn't as high pressure. And I think that's a good lesson for so many people building. Do the tests when the stakes aren't as high. Number one, so that you can get like callous to it and you can start to learn how to like just take the step forward. And number two, because if you don't start to practice taking steps, you just won't take any steps when it actually becomes high pressure and high stakes. So true.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

You have to get uncomfortable in like a safer sort of training wheels environment and do it then. Cause even if it doesn't feel like the safer environment, I promise you, in a year from now or as you grow, it will only get riskier. Just as athletes.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

And it allows you to calculate the risk a little bit better the next time that you do it. Which I think is really interesting about the CPG part of your business because that is calculated risk, right? You have a tech product, you have a built-in community on your own platforms and on the app. And you've been putting so much time, effort, team power into the tech build. But because the community was looking for something different in the wellness world and you knew that you could bring that to them, you created. Well, you also have your matcha, right? And that's a small, is that a smaller part of your channel? Okay. And then you had the gut instinct, yep. Which I love and is so delicious. And my kids, and like I know it's safe, and then my kids can eat it. And like, so everyone, you know, the whole family. You can bake with it. Oh, please, we put it in the muffins. Like, please, it's it's amazing. And it also makes me feel good and all the things. So I'm like, I'm a believer. I mean, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid honey. But I know that going from tech build to CPG is that's a a leap. And it was a natural leap and kind of a necessary leap for you, but it probably wasn't an easy leap. Can you tell us a little bit about that leap?

unknown 35:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

The clunkiness, maybe?

SPEAKER_01 35:53

The clunkiness. So when we got to the point where this is like six months ago, we were starting to build out the custom version of the app and or like exploring what that would look like. So I mentioned this quickly earlier. My husband is our CTO. I'm the CEO. I am the risk taker. He is, he is so meticulous with a product that he builds. You will never meet somebody more like meticulous. That's the best word about the design, about the UX, about the actual functionality of the product. He is, he is like genuinely my secret weapon, and he's gonna love hearing this on the podcast. But no, he truly is. And and the so the crazy part is I'm more of the risk taker and the intuitive, and we are this is our second tech company we build together. And so our first tech company, he was our CEO, but he was also should have been the CTO, but he we went and got a CTO because he was the CEO and somebody else needs to fill that role. And at the end of the day, he's so technical and so good with product that now that we've sort of switched, and I was like running marketing, we've switched that and I'm now the CEO. We both look at each other every day and go, How the heck were we in those? Like we were in the wrong roles. I am so a CEO and he is so a CTO. And I'm the connection and the network and the visionary, and he is like the product builder. Yeah. And so when I say, okay, we're gonna build this, and he wasn't always on the company. This is six months ago, and we decided to build a custom, start integrating AI, do more research, like, you know, explore what that would look like with AI and AI agents helping support builds. Like there's a lot that's happening and it's happening fast. And my husband goes, Well, what do you want to do first? You you have an app that works that people love, right? The the white labeled version that we had. Do you want to launch product, build that product up, and then say, Hey, here's the app that goes with it? Or do you want to build the best tech app, the best AI-powered women's health app? And then do you want to say, Oh, you love this? We've got your product. And I looked him down in the eye and I said, Oh, I'm doing both. He was like, Oh, wait, we're not doing both at the same time. And I said, No, I'm doing both at the same time because I'm not going to sit here. And yes, obviously, we're so deep into the app because we've proven that. We spent a year and a half proving that out from a PDF to where we are now. Yeah. But I'm gonna do the exact same thing I did with CPG. The version of that PDF is what we did with our our app or with our product launch with gut instinct. We went to the bare minimum. How do we prove that this is something people will let into their homes, into their kitchen? They'll spend money on, that we can make way more than we're spending on it. What are our margins? How do we go through this entire process? Manufacturing, fulfilling, everything. Get out that clunky stuff, have an MVP, get it up, and then go from there. And at the end of the day, we laugh now. We sit back and we're like, oh, so smart. Now what's the next version of the CPG? What does that look like? And trust me, CPG is like it's it depends on who you talk to, but it's it's it's hot, it's selling, like it's it's big right now. And so, and it's a lot of interest from like investors. I've just there's so much, so many exits that have happened in CPG. And so when I get questioned as a tech founder, and they're like, you know, tech investors are like, you're building product, and then product investors are like, oh, you're investing in tech. And I look at them and I say, Yeah, I'm building two billion dollar businesses next to each other in one.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

And how do you show them that you're not taking your eye off the ball of one? They're both working.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

They're both working, they both feed into each other. The same customer.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Okay, so I come from a range of normal that they actually can't be separate or shouldn't be separate. They shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

So, okay, I I come from a retail marketing background before being a creator and in the early days, and there's this concept, which you probably know because we're women and we love shopping. The whole idea is I'm like, don't tell my husband that.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Yes, but yes. Well, okay, all the packages that show up to my house.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Yes. The idea is I want more of your wallet. I don't want to compete for what I'm already selling you. So if I'm going to make a pair of pants and I sell you another pair of pants, the exact same, maybe your favorite in black, there's only one pair of pants you can wear today. But with that pair of pants, you need shoes, you need a top, you need a blazer, right? So it's things that complement the market, the wallet share. They're not competing with each other. Yeah. If you are a customer of our app, a member of our community, what do you need to succeed? You need to go and get these specific products to allow you to win the best possible that you can. I'm not going to make another app at the same time that I'm making an app or make another thing that competes with that. I'm not going to launch one flavor of protein and the same flavor of protein at the same time. I'm going to launch protein and then I'm going to launch another product that supports you in that journey that we're already supporting you on.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

That's just my mind. So it's like more of a holistic plan to their wellness, truly to serve your community.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Because they're buying that either way. Why wouldn't they buy that from me? That's the point.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Yeah. Do you think that you are, or maybe this was intentional, but brand and world building is a big thing that we talk about in PR, right? There's so many brands building an amazing world and bringing their customer in, bringing their community in. And it's not even about the product anymore, it's about the world that they're creating. But what you're talking about is really world building, but in a different way. It is allowing them to have in their minds an entrance into the world of wellness that doesn't feel intimidating, feels attainable and doable with someone, a founder kind of leading the charge. And then you've opened it up to this community where now these women are actually like influencing each other and cheering each other on. So it's actually started to live outside of even just you. Oh, absolutely. Which is amazing and honestly not easy to do for it to live outside of you. And I actually think that's a testament to what you're building with the community and should be studied. And that's where investors will come in and see that like you are also building a product where you have a personal brand, you have a community, but the community also is champions of each other. But do you think that you was there intention behind kind of like world building? Because creating a product that can help support their wellness, maybe one day you're creating a supplement, you know, whatever the other products are. And I won't pry because you don't have to tell me every little detail, even though we all want to know and we're all gonna watch for every little drop. But is it a part of creating a world of wellness for these women? Was that like intentional, or you didn't really think about it that way?

SPEAKER_01 42:51

I think I thought about and I think about every day. What did I need to stop feeling like crap back then that would have empowered me to get to the place that I feel amazing today? That's how I think about it, truly. And when we talk about this world, you are who you surround yourself with. And women heal in groups. Women talk about what they're going through and they share their stories. And when they feel good, they talk about it more. So ultimately, like the most successful products and especially technology products that we see allow their customers to be their biggest brand advocates, to invite their friends to do it with them, to bring them outside of the product and do meetups and really scale. Those are the most successful products because, or bring your team in, whatever that looks like. How do you create? And what you're talking about is like this real viral loop. And it goes outside of the product to create virality. It can't be just within this little ecosystem. And so that involves like now we do it obviously intentionally, invite your friend to challenge. Challenges, you know, all of this. But the gamified side of mindful, which is like every so everything happens through these gamified challenges where community really heals together. So give us an example of a challenge. Okay. So 14-day sugar reset. Oh, it's a good one. Yeah. It's a really, really good one. It's my favorite. And what's so fun about this is also I love when people come to us with a certain idea of what that is. And then we kind of pop the like stigma.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

I was like scared to do it actually, because I'm a self-proclaimed like sugar addict. I was like, I'm never gonna be able to get through this. Right. But it like wasn't hard to do. It was like it felt very approachable, which is why I think I got so pulled in, which you're like, yeah, that was the point.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

But for example, okay, so I could dive into the actual like nitty-gritty of the nutrition side of it, but that's a reset, meaning educating women on what sugar does for your body, different types of sugar, what to look for, how to read labels alongside a meal plan that supports you. And we don't talk about cutting out um natural forms of sugar. And I'm a big honey and maple syrup girl. It's what does processed sugar do for your body, learning that can you kind of reset your system and balance your blood sugar? That's basically what it's really about. And it's strong in the education side. But as we gamify it in community, it's about you opt in to join a challenge in community that moves through a specific amount of days where hundreds or thousands of women are jumping in alongside you and doing the same thing. And a lot of that requires check-ins, homework, um, you know, logging your progress, sharing within community. So they have goals to hit that really make it sticky and fun along the way. But that's where that engine comes in of it exists without me and without anybody kind of driving it. And I think that's where influencer and creator products go wrong, that they don't exist outside of the creator. And so the product needs to be positioned as its own world, as its own community outside. I, at the end of the day, am just a funnel. I'm the voice, I'm the creator, I'm the founder, sure. But I'm a funnel. And my community and my women come to me because of my stories and they get funneled into mindful. And we tell them about the product. This looks great. I want in. Amazing. But guess what, Chris? If you're our next creator that talks about their story and their healing in public and how mindful's allowed them to optimize their health and feel their best and share that and amplify that voice, now you're a funnel.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

When they come into the community, you're part of the community, so am I, and so are all the other women there. But it's not about you and it's not about me. It's about us in our own little micro worlds and how we bring those audiences and those communities with us into the experience. But it doesn't need to stop at me. And that's the cool part about what we've done with zero paid ads is that we can now bring other creators that are owners, that are if have vested interests, that have healing in public stories, a lot of like from our from using our product and amplify their voices. I don't want to go get people that are doing their Pilates workouts and you know, don't have much on the on the like haven't really used the product and then slap an Instagram ad up with them. And I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm just saying that's not really going to create value ad for that funnel and to really drive people in. So I'm just one funnel. That's basically the point.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Yeah. No, I I love it. And what are you out of all the things that you've accomplished already so far? And I know that currently you're in a stage where you're building, you're raising, you're looking for investors, you're you're speaking on stages, you're amplifying this mission of what mindful really stands for, which is unbelievable. You've done it so eloquently, and I know that it's not easy work, and I'm very, very proud of you. But what are you the most proud of at this point?

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Honestly, I'm the most proud of the life that my husband and I have built. I have to be honest. I posted about this cute little video, you know, we're not where we want to be, but we're definitely far beyond where we thought we'd be in eight years in our relationship. And I don't say that, you know, it's different because he builds alongside me. But every single day I look at our life, I didn't like where I lived, I got up and moved. I didn't like what I was doing, I built my dream business. I didn't, you know, maybe like the people I was surrounding myself with, I put myself in a different circle. I we created the life that we have brick by brick. And every single day, I literally, like I feel like I'm gonna cry, but every single day I wake up, my husband's like, oh, somebody took their happy pills. And like, yeah, I took a sniff of the fresh air outside and just live in this amazing life. I think he thinks I'm crazy. I'm like, look at the dogs, they're so cute. Look at that. Yeah. And by the way, we don't have a huge house, we don't have anything special, but I feel the more excited I am about it, the more that comes. But I'm genuinely so excited because there's been a part of me that's dreamt so much of just where I am right now, and as much stress is on my shoulders, like you said, of building. Like, we don't have it figured out at all. When I tell you guys this, like there is so much we need to hire so like we need to build faster. We need to hire more, we need to, and then from the personal side, you have all these goals. Like, all of this is going to be there. And no matter where you get, there's going to be more. The yardstick just keeps moving. But where I am now, that's what I'm the most proud of. And I wake up happy every day and I don't care about the rest.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

I love it. Well, we're always we always end with branded banter. So one answer, don't think too much about it. All right, we're jumping in. What's your one holy girl product? If you lost it tomorrow, you'd replace it immediately.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

I mean gut instinct. Hey, that could be it.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Um my phone? Oh. I don't know. I would be at Apple tomorrow. I love it. Founder-led brand or celebrity brand?

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Uh what's my favorite founder-led brand or celebrity brand?

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Founder-led brand or celebrity brand. Oh, found it. Yeah. Organic influencer seating or paid partnerships. Organic. Virality or longevity.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Longevity, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Okay, sorry, I was just giving one answer. Longevity. Okay. Big budget campaign or scrappy idea with cultural relevance. Oh, scrappy. Come on. What's the most overrated word in marketing right now?

SPEAKER_01 50:33

I mean, AI. We just talked about it so much, but it's on us like, okay, no. AI and community. Both the things I do because it's exhausting when you actually do them and everybody talks about them. And everyone wants them. Everybody wants them. And they're say they're building community, but all they've done is, you know, thrown out a product and made an ideal customer profile. Said, this is our community. These are the customers.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

One word that'll define the next era of wellness brands. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Um, real stories, real healing, products at work. We've been. Okay, sorry, I'm not supposed to.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

No, I love that I said one word and given about 17 words. Well, this is what we love about the mirrors. If we were launch, if you were launching a brand tomorrow, what's the first thing you'd obsess over?

SPEAKER_01 51:26

Who you're launching it for before what the product is. What's their problem?

unknown 51:33

Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

I love it. Well, where can everyone find you? Okay, so you can find mindful. It is mindful with two Ls.so on everything Instagram, TikTok, um, our website. And then if you want to find me, I am the fit fatale on literally everything.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

Amazing. Is there anything else you want to share with our audience? No, thank you so much for being here, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

I'm so excited about this podcast because we need real stories. I feel like we've been both having a million hour days right now, and this is what we need out there.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Well, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. And I think that you are so open and honest about your journey. It's what more people need to hear as they build. It's a grind, and people kind of like look down and keep building, but you've been someone that has been so open with your community and your audience. And now you're bringing that to our audience. So I am very, very grateful. Thanks so much, Sam. Thank you. This podcast is for informational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by guests are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views, policies, or positions of MMC or any of its affiliates. Guest appearances do not constitute an endorsement.