Brandidly Speaking

Beauty Editor-at-Large Heather Muir on the Unwritten Rules of Media

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What actually makes a brand stand out to editors today? 

In this episode of Brandidly Speaking, Cris Gordon is joined by Heather Muir, Beauty Editor at Large at People Inc., for a conversation about what truly gets an editor’s attention in an increasingly crowded market. With nearly two decades of experience across publications like Cosmopolitan, Allure, and Real Simple, Heather has witnessed the evolution of media firsthand, from print-first coverage to today’s multi-platform landscape where relationships, storytelling, and authenticity matter more than ever. 

Cris and Heather unpack how editors evaluate brands today, why relationships still play a critical role in coverage, and the biggest mistakes brands make when pitching their products. They also discuss how the media landscape has shifted, what brands need to understand about earned media today, and why emotional connection is often the difference between a brand that gets noticed and one that gets overlooked. 

For marketers, founders, and anyone building a modern brand, this episode offers an inside look at how editors think, and what it really takes to break through the noise. 

Listen now to hear Heather’s perspective on the evolving relationship between brands, media, and storytelling. 

New podcast episodes drop every Wednesday, hosted by Cris Gordon, Head of Beauty at MMC.  

🎙️ Subscribe on Spotify | Apple Podcasts | YouTube 

👍 Follow @Brandidly_Speaking on Instagram, LinkedIn, and TikTok and MMC on Instagram and LinkedIn. 

📲 We'd love to hear from you: hello@hellommc.com 

SPEAKER_04

I've been doing this for 18 years. Every day I'm still like, I can't believe I get to do this. Like, to me, it's my absolute dream job.

SPEAKER_02

What do you think that brands need to be considering with a new launch? And they're like, okay, are we just going out to media and we're doing like kind of the good old-fashioned way? Or do they need to now start considering like, should I be making in a budget for branded stuff? Brent is not the only piece of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_04

We are really putting like our value in other things. If a brand has like a great story, the bar, it has to be amazing. The formula has to be amazing, has to feel great, the packaging has to be smart. That to me is what moves the needle.

SPEAKER_00

Would you ever have a beauty brand?

SPEAKER_03

People ask me this all the time.

SPEAKER_02

It's a brand new day. You know what that means. It's time for another episode of Brandedly Speaking with your host, Chris Gordon. Today we are so excited to have Heather Muir on, beauty editor at large for People Inc. We're gonna jump right into it because I have so many questions that I want to ask. Heather, thanks so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02

I'm so excited because we've known each other for literally forever. Yeah, I'm like decades.

SPEAKER_04

I know.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like in the notes it said I was doing this for 15 years, I'm like 18, but who's counting? I'm just excited to have you on because I feel like you are someone that even in my career, like we've kind of grown up together in the industry. I've seen you really shine and step into a lot of different roles in the trajectory of your own career path. Um and now you're a mom, you're a beauty editor at large, like you have a lot going on. And also you're like one of the most real people that I know.

SPEAKER_04

You're so sweet. I'm trying to keep up with you, girls.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, you know what? That means that means you need like energizer batteries and you'll be ready to go. Um, but it's it's beautiful to see because I think you have such a nice balance of how you show up in the world. And also, this is one thing that I will say about you. You are someone that my team has always said, you answer, like you answer. And that, and you answer or you attend things. And even though you can't be at everything and you can't always answer every single email, it's like you answer what matters and what counts, and you show people that you're listening, and you respect that there's other people on the other side of the emails that are like working really hard to get their products out there. And as a beauty editor, your whole career, it's like you're getting thousands probably of emails a day.

SPEAKER_04

So many. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And that is like a chance.

SPEAKER_04

And I'm a zero in box kind of girl. Like I can't really go to sleep until I'm cleared out.

SPEAKER_02

Oh wow. That's a big see me. I'm like, there's 300 on Red Emails, and I like skim them and I know what's important. And then I'm like, uh, how many do you think?

SPEAKER_04

There's no right or wrong. It's just how we can like get through it.

SPEAKER_02

Well, no, it's like different levels of organization too. Like, and I and I love that. And that's probably how you go about like figuring out which brands you have to cover or which brands you events you're gonna go to, and like you have a team, so you're organizing things there. Um, but I really love that because it's just a testament to who you are. And I think that like whenever you show up at any event, at any like moment, a dinner, a press event for a brand, you're just so kind and like you get it, and you know that like the team is working really hard and you're attentive and you're listening. And I think that that's like a lost art a little bit now.

SPEAKER_04

When I started at Cosmo a million years ago, I was a print magazine editor. And fast forward almost 20 years later, it's like TV, social media, you know, like magazine. Yeah, you're doing it all.

SPEAKER_02

So tell me a little bit about your new role.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So I've been a beauty editor for 18 years. I've been at a bunch of different brands, primarily like print beauty the entire time. I've been at Real Simple um for over 10 years, which I cannot believe.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, but that's weird because it feels like yesterday when I remember you going to Real Simple.

SPEAKER_04

I know, but I got married when I was at Real Simple and we've had our 10, we almost had our 10 years. That's how you know you like start. That is how you know.

SPEAKER_02

I know I just passed my 10 years.

SPEAKER_04

It is crazy. And I feel like coming up, I interned at self, I worked at Cosmo, um, 17, Allure, Fitness, and every job I had, I loved it so much I could have stayed there forever. But I would always like get as much out of it as I could. And after like two years, it was like, okay, it's time to move on. And you know, in our industry, like you really have to like move to like climb. So that was always like my motto. Then I got to Real Simple. I was a beauty director. I loved it when we went, we had like 12 big juicy issues with the beautiful paper. Um, and obviously in the past 10 years, like things have evolved so much. And I think watching my predecessors be like, we do print, that's what we do. I was like, wait, no, like I have so much fun on Instagram, and this is a great way to engage with brands and to like build our own brand at real simple. Um, and I just learned to kind of like, you gotta like print is is not the only piece of the puzzle. Yeah, you know, and I really you know try to dig into like video and TV. And you know, as our jobs have increased so much more, our resources have gotten a lot smaller. Yeah, you know, I used to work on teams where I managed four girls and we would divide and conquer the events and the deadlines and all the things.

SPEAKER_02

How big is your team now?

SPEAKER_04

It's me, baby. And I think that from the outside looking in, you'd be so shocked at how small the teams are now, you know, and we're doing a million things. But I think it's, you know, about just being like grateful and doing all the things, and it's still so much fun. Um, but yeah, it's it's a lot.

SPEAKER_02

It's a lot. But you know, I think that that it's a testament to how you're able to kind of adapt the way of working into what the future needs for media. I mean, that's like a whole nother conversation around media, the media landscape changing so much. I mean, I our jobs as as publicists have changed tremendously from when I first started. I'm like, forget it when people were faxing press releases out.

SPEAKER_04

Right. Oh my God. I literally remember like printing, editing on with a pen.

SPEAKER_02

It's you know, what do you think is one of the biggest and most exciting changes about how people ink and and the whole organization is moving into the future?

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so this is a great example. You asked about my new role. So I am still the acting beauty director at Real Simple. So everything editorially, I still write for them. Print, digital, all the beauty content, it's great.

SPEAKER_02

And how much beauty content are you pumping out a a week, a day, like so?

SPEAKER_04

We do six print issues a year. I never, I don't, I haven't assigned out in years. I like to save us money, I like to be in control of our narrative, all those things. Um, so I do the beauty content in those issues. And because we've gotten kind of like lean and mean, I can also do like fashion stuff, home stuff, parenting stuff, which is great. Like it's fun to like broaden, you know. And then for digital, I do like two or three digital posts a week. Um, and ours are kind of meaty. So, like always talking to, you know, I talked to like three derms for every story. So it's like a mini feature, every post, but it's but it's great. And then with my new role, and this is something I never in a million years thought I'd get to do before, you know, it was very like church and state. Yeah, it was your editorial or your like branded, you know, it's very separate. And in my new role, although I'm doing um real simple editorial, now I can do branded across the people ink portfolio, which has been like such a dream. I just I feel so happy that I get to do both. I still get to do be creative and do the shoots and do the beauty awards. But then for branded stuff, if someone like an Olay or, you know, Pandora Jewelry or whoever at Verizon like comes and says, like, we want to use Heather as talent, how can we work together? And I feel like, oh my gosh, I'm bringing in revenue. I get to be talent, I get my glam, I get to do the photo shoot. And I love it so, so much.

SPEAKER_02

So I get say in the creative process too at all, or do they come in with a baked campaign?

SPEAKER_04

No, I feel like sometimes, I mean, everyone's every ask is different. And at People Inc., we have an amazing team who can like really help me with the ideas, but that's like where, you know, when I get brought into those conversations, it's so different than my normal editorial process. And I I love it because it's the wrong way.

SPEAKER_02

Like, give me like a okay, an editorial.

SPEAKER_04

If I'm writing a skincare story, it's like very science and you know, it is creative in certain ways on how we like show it. Are we gonna illustrate it? Are we gonna shoot it? But when I'm doing something branded, it's like, okay, what's the goal? And I get to kind of put on my like sales hat and like I've done QVC a couple of times and I like to see like how much I'm selling. So anything they're like a hundred sold exactly. Like after the Today Show when brands are like, I thought you made us$80,000. Oh my god, that must be the best feeling ever. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I don't get anything, but that's but it's like just you're excited to be like a part of their success.

SPEAKER_04

Like move a brand. I mean, it's so hard, it's so cluttered. Like anything I can do, and especially when it comes to, you know, one of these big um budget brands coming and we do something so, you know, I'm like, I don't know, for I got to do for Pandora, like we made Mother's Day jewelry, and like, you know, to me, it's like I'm acting in my own movie. Yeah. And it's just, it's so much fun. I love it.

SPEAKER_02

That's so fun. And like you get to, I think, flex different parts of your personality too. Because I've seen you and I've seen like Heather as like the the overall woman that's like, I've seen you in your like mom life, I've seen you in your work life, and like now this is another aspect of your personality that like gets to shine. And I feel like that's really fun. Yeah, it's so much fun. Yeah. Okay. So tell us a little bit more about how brands, when they're thinking about editorial versus branded stuff. Yep. What do you think that brands need to be considering with either the budget, right? If they're maybe, if they have a new launch, let's use that as an example. They have a new launch and they're like, okay, are we just going out to media and we're doing like kind of the good old-fashioned way I earned media? Yeah. Or do they need to now start considering like, should I be baking in a budget for branded stuff? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, it kind of depends on like where you are. I think to start, it's like getting it in the editorial, the beauty editor's hands for sure. You know, it's like the the scale that I'm working on with branded stuff, because it's through, I mean, we're like the number one media company. So it's like you can't just come and be like, battle a little bit and I have$5. Yes. And that's sometimes hard. And you can see where beauty, like beauty directors in the past have often pivoted to become influencers because they see, you know, the money in it. Um, whereas like when you're doing branded stuff through like a People Inc or, you know, a Hearst or Conde or whatever, like it's a big, big, big budget. You know, I I'm a small my talent fee is a small part of it. I'm happy about it, you know. But it's just like it's it's very different. Um, but yeah, I think if you're just starting out out, getting it into the hands and God love you guys for having to do this job. Because I will say when we started, it was like, yes, there were all these new brands popping up, but you know, 15 years later, we're like, wow, like I am shocked at how many people tell me that they saw a white space and I want to, you know, it's one of those things where it's like it's so fun to hear everyone's stories, but I would say eight out of 10 times, I'm like, dude, I wish you would come see my beauty closet. I could there wasn't there wasn't a white space there. Yeah. You know, sometimes if a brand has like a great story and you know, yeah, like what's sticking out to you? I think the like what's really sticking out to you because I feel like almost it's like a given that it has to be. It has to be good.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Like at this point, if you like try something or you see an ingredient list, or you you're just like, that's not even like it's just it already the bar, it it has to be amazing. The formula has to be amazing, has to feel great, the packaging has to be smart, all those things. But to me, it's still about like a relationship or a story, something to move me, you know. At this point, and I'll be sitting across from a founder and like, why did you start this line? And it was like, well, I had the opportunity to. I'm like, girl, it's like the thing that is not gonna move the needle for me. An opportunity, like what? Yeah, you know, so I need some like heart, some soul, some some tear, like you know, to really understand the story. When brands are so whether you're at the drugstore, Sephora Alta, wherever you're at, there is so much stuff. Even as a beauty editor, I go in there, I don't want to go in there. Like, I'm happy I get my stuff sent to my house because it's so it's overwhelming.

SPEAKER_02

Crazy sexual.

SPEAKER_04

It's so overwhelming. And getting text from my girlfriend's like, okay, what do I need this? Oh my God.

SPEAKER_02

That's like, I bet you and I could show each other our text. Is that our next thing? That is like that. Should be. We're gonna have a concierge service where we just tell people what they need to buy and what they actually need to invest in. Because that is like, that's my my fifth job that I have. It's like I'm like at night with my kids and been there, like, I need a new skincare routine. I need a what do you recommend? It's like so funny.

SPEAKER_04

Because it's hard, it's hard to do it. It's hard out there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And if you're not in the industry, it's scary to pick things because there's just so much.

SPEAKER_04

And the stuff is so expensive. And because we get to try it all and do it all for free, which is so fun. But every girl who sees it is like, wait, do I need this? And I think as I've gotten a little more older and more experienced, it's like, actually, you don't. Like, there are very few things, like big ticket items, that I'm like, that is worth it.

SPEAKER_02

A lot of stuff is like just fine, you know, but that's where you well, I feel like that's where brands I talk about this a lot because there's emotional connection, right? Like there's the brand narrative and like how how are we leading the charge with press releases and all of the things. But what's the emotional connection to people and why they should actually care about the brand has become so much more important. Like you're saying, I mean, the product being good and the product having good packaging, that's the baseline. That is that is to point of entry into this market at this point. And so emotional connection and the story of like the why becomes even more important. Like I I literally wax poetic about this every single day because I'm like, why would people care? Yep. Why would they care? Yeah. If like you can't even get a team that like is a PR team or a content creation team to care, someone that you're paying, how are you gonna get a consumer to care? You really need to think about that. So it's like important to coach clients through it. I mean, what do you think are some of the most effective ways that people have built emotional connections from between their brand and even you?

SPEAKER_04

I mean, I think for me, we deal with um PR like publicists so much, like that to me is still like a lot of times what moves the needle. You know what I mean? It's like my relationship. We've been doing this for so long. We're a really small kind of industry. And that's like, you know, the point about being nice to everyone. It's like that's who you kind of remember. So I think that is like the first level of like who I pay attention to. You know, if I have hundreds of emails coming in about new brands and I can only take a certain amount of meetings, it's you, it's I look at you guys. Like who are you repping? Like, who do I want to pay attention to because of our relationship? You know, and that's something that you build over a career. And I think the younger generation, I'm sounding like such a granny on my soapbox, but like we've kind of lost that. I know. Publicists are constantly being like, Heather, how do I get people to write me back? And the fact that people don't is still, it kind of blows my mind. I mean, listen, we all have a certain amount of time in the day, but being nice and taking the coffee, even though you don't really have time, or it means working later in 10, 15 years, it really like benefits you both. It goes a long way. It does.

SPEAKER_02

It goes a long way. And I feel like brands, even and their PR teams like are kind of an extension of each other. And that's a really good boundary to set with your PR team too, is like getting to know your team behind the brand that they're the representatives of you on the ground when you are not there. Yes. Are they doing the the right thing? Are they connecting with people in the way that you would connect with them? And I think that is always something that, especially like as a leader on my team, it's like it's very, very important to me that my team is an extension of the brand, really understands the story, really can feel the connection that they want to have, and then they can go out and be like that proxy when the founder is not there. Totally. We need to like really love what we do. And and it's also a good critical lens on like what you take on as an agency, too. It's like what you say yes to, what you say no to, what's not the right fit. There's a fit for everybody. And I think at the end of the day, for us, like being human first is so, so important. And so finding brands that value that also is important for alignment on how you're gonna be represented.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, brands are now reaching out to me more than ever, being like, Heather, who should I go with? Like, what's the best fit for me? So I'm like making these connections, like it's like a whole new thing that I never really thought of. But I'm like, wait, knowing you're gonna stop now. Add it to the list, but it's actually really fun. I feel like a matchmaker because I'm like knowing your personality and knowing the brand and knowing like this agency's vibe, like it's kind of good to like be able to help with that, you know? Because it is so critical and so important. And I think people that change all the time, to us, it's like you get those emails, like, of course, you know, sometimes you have to change, and change can be good, but it's like, you know, every couple of months, like we're going here, we're going here, we're going here. It's like, girl, maybe you're the prop.

SPEAKER_02

Please. There's so much education that goes into it. I'm I'm like also a big believer that education to the client is also really important. Yeah. Especially when whether they're a founder made brand that's like scrappy and startup or they're like a legacy brand, there's always very, very pivotal moments where education is going to be paramount in their success.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And in our success as the relationship, you know, between them and like the public eye.

SPEAKER_04

And it's changed so much. It's like when I first started, the big, big, the L'Oreals, the Lauders, like the big, big brands were that was it. You know what I mean? Like, and now it's like, I love that like a lot of the smaller brands like get a lot of attention too. And we can kind of, as sad as it is that print advertising isn't what it was, it also gives us freedom to be able to like true. We've I think we've always done a good job of balancing like the best thing for our readers, along with like making advertising happy. That's just the way the world works. If anyone wants to say anything different, like come on, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But now, because we don't have that as much, although it's it can be a struggle financially, um, it really gives us the freedom to like, hey, this is my favorite thing. Like in my column in the magazine, it's called Pretty Smart. It's literally like I get thousands of, you know, things to try. This is what I'd spend my money on. This is what I would tell you to spend your money on. And I can truly say it's like my opinion, which is so cool.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that is really cool. When it comes to the world of advertising and in media and talking about just like how much it has changed, what's the what's probably the biggest thing that you've seen it affect when it comes to your day-to-day job?

SPEAKER_04

I mean, we used to I used to be out on sales calls all of the time. You know, we'd go to Florida for PCPC every um year and you know, literally like present to all the advertisers. And I'd go out with my publisher on these like kind of like pony road shows, and I'd give the whole real simple simple spiel on why you should advertise with us. And that we just it's almost like unheard of. Now it's like I am the walking billboard for real simple beauty, whether it's on my Instagram or you're like the face of whatever.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you're like the face of I'm doing you and I think real simple.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, thank you. Um, but yeah, it's less of like, you know, going around with our publisher and like giving the whole like song and dance to advertise with us. Like we don't that those days are kind of over for whatever reason. And now it's just like, you know, through work, you're hoping to like grab their attention, you know. And and advertising dollars are just, it's just a totally different world, you know. While I'm still so happy we have a print product, we are really putting like our value in other things like temples and in-person events, and it's like thinking of all the other things that go alongside print.

SPEAKER_02

What's kind of the coolest, most outside of the box thing that people in guess brand has done. Oh, this is a hard one, Chris. I've seen everything. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_04

From shirtless men showing up at my house in the Hudson Valley delivering something, every kind of like food thing. I mean, the flashiest, crazy, you know. It's so hard. I mean, people are like, I went to Iceland with a brand because they were launching something that had to do with like a there was like a space component, and they took us there because astronauts train in Iceland because the terrain is most like the moon. Like the brands are you guys do such an amazing job. But I always tell people, like, you don't always have to be like bigger, better, flashier. Not all the time. Like to me, what always pulls up my heart strings is like something personal. Like, if it's like the other day I told this like crazy, funny kid story, you know, at a meeting. And the next day the publicist I was with sent my kid like this little, just a little small, inexpensive gift, but like related to the story, which is just so sweet. I feel like that to me, that's like means more than like a crazy trip to an island. Yeah. Although I like those two.

SPEAKER_02

You're like, we'll still go to Ourobora. Yeah, it's hard. I feel like you're probably inundated with opportunities and it's hard to pick and choose. It is ultimately like how do you make those choices in the end?

SPEAKER_04

I mean, I think depending on if it's a great brand fit, you know, for for real simple.

SPEAKER_02

What is a great brand fit for real simple?

SPEAKER_04

So we're like 30s or 40s, busy women. Everything that we give them has to like solve a problem, streamline their routines. Yeah. Exactly. Totally. Um, so it, you know, if it's something super young, you know, it might not be like the best fit for me. Like I feel like we have to know kind of where we are. Like brands always want to go young, young, young. And it's like, okay, well, there's still 40-year-old women who need things served up to them too. Yeah. You know, um, if it's something crazy expensive, like we'll get creams for like, you know, a thousand dollars, like I'm not gonna tell someone they have to go buy that. I'm just not gonna write about it. So that's probably not a fit. And for us, I always say I can't guarantee coverage. I just don't like the my journalistic background is like, I don't like that. It feels icky. But of course, if you are immersing me in some amazing brand, and of course I'm open to covering like whatever is a fit. So that's kind of how I go.

SPEAKER_02

If it's like interesting, also, like I feel like the experience still has to show you a little bit about the brands.

SPEAKER_04

But brands have got, I mean, and it's probably because everyone feels this pressure right now. But it is literally like you're invited, and then the last line is like, you know, if you can guarantee coverage, you can come. You know, it's like they're very bold. Before it was kind of like this unspoken role, and now it's kind of like, you know, everyone's just a little more transparent, which I guess I appreciate, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I know. The industry, we've even had to figure out how to navigate it and also how to educate clients on the fact that like not everything can be guaranteed. I think that you don't want to put your relationships, the editorial relationships that you have, like on the line at the end of the day, because that is ultimately why a brand is paying you for the relationships that you have, and you value those over everything because that's what makes the world go around. It's how you're able to do your job. Totally. So educating the client and having clients that understand that is is really important. A key part of the puzzle so that you're not having to like press on something too hard. Right. Um there's a balance.

SPEAKER_04

We're used to the the pressing for sure.

SPEAKER_02

I know, I know. And and listen, there's a balance too, because I think that there is a it's nice to have transparency from editors on why it's maybe not working. Right. Like that is something that we can then use to educate our company.

SPEAKER_04

Like I love when someone's like, Heather, I don't want to bug you. I know you're busy. What can I like? What can we say here? Like, why wasn't it a fit? Or what did you like honest feedback on this? And I'd rather just us say it because I know that you guys have someone to answer to. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And you get that, you get the whole 360 part of the job, you know. And I think that that's really vital in the relationship component of the work that we do is like really seeing the big picture. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I mean, we get all these pitches every day. And when I find a fit, whether, you know, my real estate is smaller these days. Like when I worked at Alore and we had a giant magazine to fill with beauty products, I how many pages do you have now? Like everything. Now in real simple print, it's six issues a year. And maybe I have 10 pages or something. So it's just small, it's smaller, you know. And our whole thing is like, we don't want to recommend a thousand things. We're supposed to be making making your life simpler. Not hard, we're not real hard, you know. Um, so I'm always shocked at like a brand or publicist who pitches the shit out of me. And then I'll be like, oh my God, here's the PDF. Like, I hope you love it. And they're like, that, you know, Heather, thank you so much. And then like offline or behind the scenes, they'll be like, you know, of course the client like wanted a full page feature, you know, or something. And you're just like, dude, like they got this beautiful thing. So I think it's like that balance too. You know, at our brand, like we're never gonna do a giant feature on one founder. Sure, like maybe a few or something. So I think it's just like, you know, managing expectations, us working together to know exactly like what's right for our brand, you know, and then you guys get to go talk talking about it.

SPEAKER_02

But then it's our job, you know, it's our job to make sure that they understand. And also it's our job to not pitch the wrong, the wrong person the wrong thing. Totally. Like there can be so many amazing benefits about a certain product or a brand that you're working with, and still one of these publications may not be the right fit. Right. And so there's the I think the the beauty in the job is like being able to navigate that media landscape because then it's like you're not having to just flat out say no to things that like ultimately weren't a fit. It's like the team is seasoned enough to know that it's not maybe a fit in certain cases, right? If there's like a crazy expensive product that just isn't a fit at all, it's not true. It's like it's just not even worth going into your inbox to like just what clog up your space and like then you having to say, hey, it's not it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_04

And I think on my end, it's like, okay, so maybe some of this stuff isn't a fit for me, but brands and publicists know like if they invite Heather, she's gonna give it lots of love on social, or maybe she'll consider it for TV. So it's like I've also worked, tried to work in ways of like there are other things, you know, and maybe that's valuable, and maybe it's not, but it's also like something that kind of goes with me and my brand.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think that what what you're talking about is really interesting here because we've seen it a lot in the media. There is your full-time job and the position you show up in, and then there's your personal brand. And they're they're both so, especially for someone like you, it's like they're both so interwoven. And I'm sure there's like contractually certain things that you have to be showing up for, especially from the branded side. But how do you create kind of um enough of a separation too where you still have you can bring that kind of journalistic integrity to your own personal brand without like kind of crossing a line?

SPEAKER_04

It is hard, I will say. Like, and I feel like when Instagram and stuff first started, I was like, wait, this is so fun. Like I've always had fun with it. And I've, you know, I watch the other editors behind the scenes. I love all them dearly, but you know, they like stress about every little post and caption and this. And I'm just not like that. To me, it's like fun. I take a bunch of pictures, if I think I look cute, or my kids look cute, or not. Like my whole brand is like pretty real. Like I love glam, but I'm also the first person to like be in like a hoodie, glasses, hair on top of my head, like saying something on the internet. Like I kind of like showing all the sides and being real. And, you know, has it always worked perfectly for my brands? I don't know. Like I remember when I worked at Alore, I wanted that job so bad. This was like, you know, I don't know, 10, 12 years ago. No, no more. Oh God, I don't know, a long time ago. Um, and I remember, like, you know, we had to do these crazy edit tests and there was so much pressure. And I got the job and I was so excited. And someone said to me, We all like, you know, they almost didn't hire you. And I'm like, why? And they're like, you know, your spray tan, your hair, your lashes. And I'm like, our job is to test products and makeup and fall in love with it and write about it. If that's not what I show you guys, then that's fine. Like, maybe I'm not the right fit. Of course, I've proved, you know, I proved myself. It was an amazing run there. I loved it. I learned so much. But I feel like that comment has always kind of stuck with me. It's like, yeah, I'm gonna be who I wanna be. Like, this is my vibe. You take it or leave it. And I feel like all these years later, like, I don't know, it works. Showing up here, exactly. You know, like I don't want to play a part. It like I kind of like, you know, all the girls in my office with crop tops and ghost lashes and not a drop of makeup because they're like clean girl aesthetic. Like, that's not me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you know, it's not me either.

SPEAKER_04

And I'm not gonna like, you know, I I feel confident when like I show up who I am and who, you know, what I like. So it's kind of like take it or leave it, you know. And that's all my brand is on social. You know, I don't think it's gotten me in too much trouble yet.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think like leaning into like truly being authentic to your real self so that you're not having to put on a facade. I think that like gals in beauty can get like a certain I think people can think a certain thing from the outside, right? Because we work in, I mean, listen, it's been my whole career too, right? It's like we work in the beauty industry. It's like you walk into the office and it's like glam and hairs and blowouts, and it's like these things are important, not just because it's my job, but also because I actually enjoy it. That's why I got into beauty. Exactly. You know, and people don't always see it as that because they just don't understand.

SPEAKER_04

Right. I remember when like when I was an assistant, I'd look around and be like, none of you guys have makeup on. Like, what is happening? Like, how do you test this stuff? Like, how does this work? I was genuinely like so confused. And listen, like, you have a whole career worth of people like kissing your butt. I can see where it can get to you. Like, you see, some of these people, you're like, like, but at the end of the day, I think when Fitness magazine folded and everything was taken away in a second, I was like, okay, you can't, your whole identity cannot be your job. I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I'm a friend, like I'm Heather. You know, like I love my job, but I think in that moment it was like so devastating because that all these stories that never got to see the light of day. And, you know, it's hard to just have to like pack up and go. But it just kind of showed me like it can't be your everything.

SPEAKER_02

You know how fast was that, by the way, when it folded? Like, was it a okay, like we that day, Chris?

SPEAKER_04

Like we we cleaned it in. I was at the Meredith offices, and I don't know why it has to work this way, but it does like that's just kind of like when a magazine folds. It's literally like here's a water bottle, here's a tissue box, you know, pack your stuff, pack your stuff, like your email is done that day. Yeah. Which is like so, and we didn't do anything wrong. It was just like a financial decision to pull that brand. And um, you know, it you just it was a good lesson for me because it's like you can't make your job your whole thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Was that when you start started like showing up a little bit more on social or like were there any changes that you kind of like personally wanted to do?

SPEAKER_04

I feel like I was so devastated. I remember just being like, my dream is over. And then in two seconds, I heard from all my publicist friends, hey, come do this SMT for me. Like we have a TV thing that now you're free and you can write for us. And I ended up making more money and doing more um, you know, paid opportunities in those few I got a job very quickly, but in those like two months.

SPEAKER_02

I know, I was like, someone scalped you right up and that's when I went to real simple.

SPEAKER_04

It's been like my dream job ever since. So it's it's you know, like that was a devastating blow for me, even though it wasn't like a pro I wasn't fired. It wasn't just like you're getting laid off, the whole magazine folded. Yeah, but it really was like a wake-up call. And that's when those relationships, like, I wouldn't have got that if I wouldn't, if I'd be the one like too busy to answer email or I couldn't take your coffee. You know, it's like that's where those things like we all really help each other.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. Out of all the years that you've been doing this, is there a certain like buzzword in the beauty space or marketing jargon that just like makes you cringe when like a brand company?

SPEAKER_04

I know I feel like that's beauty is hard. I mean, I get it sometimes, but like a lot of these terms, it's like everyone just attaches on to like what they're saying on TikTok and then they run with it. And it's just a lot of it is like marketing fluff. And after interviewing, you know, dermatologists my whole career and cosmetic chemists and all the things, it's like you really have to be careful like what what these things mean, you know.

SPEAKER_02

What's more impressive then to you?

SPEAKER_04

Instead of someone's coming and saying clean, like what it's I'd rather you say we put a silicone in the product, even though a lot of people don't like silicone, this is why we put it in because it does this. Like I'd rather people just be really transparent with their ingredients. And even if it might not be like cool or trendy or the cleanest thing to do, tell me why you did it. And then sometimes it makes sense. And a lot of times when you talk to people, a lot of these things aren't that bad, you know, or like the natural version is really irritating too. So it's, you know, I think it's less about like what everyone else is doing, what's trending, what's cool, and just why you did the thing you did and explaining that to me so I can understand it. Like maybe I'm feeling a texture and it's like, yeah, we could have left this out, but it wouldn't feel as amazing. And you're like, okay, I get it, you know. So and listen, you're never gonna please everyone, but you know, you know, it's like everyone's putting hyaluronic acid in everything. You talk to a dirt and they're like, hi, there's like way better things than that. But, you know, now brands literally look at like what's trending and that and they kind of work backwards. That kind of drives me nuts.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I feel like that's kind of leading to some of the oversaturation in the market too. Like they're seeing something go viral and they're like, oh, we have to go and we have to create this thing. It could be it makes it a lot harder because then they're either trying to follow a trend and then there's not longevity. Yeah. You know, and some of the best brands that have had longevity, what do you think that they're doing right?

SPEAKER_04

Um, I think staying true to the who they are. You know, I think when I see brands like jump so hard to like reach a new audience and go younger and all those things, it's like, dude, just stay in your lane. And I think brands pivot really quickly. Like we've had brands be like, we're a tween brand. And then in two months, they're pitching me like something for 40 year olds. And I'm like, wait, I why do you think they're pivoting so quickly? I think everyone tries to be everything to everyone or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

I know if you try to be everything to everyone, you're nothing.

SPEAKER_04

And it's whiplash to us because when we're seeing so many emails come in, all these pitches, we're learning about brands, we go to events, the first impression is so important. Like, I still think of certain publicists with their first account, even though they've changed and we've all grown. But like you kind of like take a picture, a mental picture of it, and you think of it. And then in a couple months, they're throwing something totally different at you. And you're like, wait, what? Like, why are you changing so much? Of course it's fine to grow, evolve, like gradually, but I think you have to stay true to like your your why did you create this brand in the first place? You know, who is it for?

SPEAKER_02

You have to unapologetically know your why and be able to lean into that. And I think that brands that make a misstep, they don't actually identify out loud what that why is that. What that was, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Everyone's so scared. It's like it's okay to I love brands that are like, hey, we launched this, it wasn't right, we pulled it, or something like that. Like that makes you real. Yeah. And that makes me like trust you and like you more.

SPEAKER_02

What's like one of your favorite? What was one of your favorite moments that you've had with a brand, whether it's like a press event or a dinner or a, you know, even just a trip or they sent something to your house that you just felt like I'm so connected to this team and to this mission, the why behind the brand. Was like there a why that stood out to you?

SPEAKER_04

Um, I'm trying to think. I feel like like I went to Israel with the brand Ahava um a few years ago, and I remember that like bringing me to tears. Like I was like, this is such a special place. Like, you know, press trips, the whole point is like to immerse us. And listen, when we're getting, you know, dozens of packages every day, and even if you're unboxing them all and trying them all, it's hard to stand out in that C. Like if I'm on my dining room floor at night, like, oh, cool, this smells good, or like, oh, I'm gonna try this later. But if some brand is literally like, I'm gonna pull pluck you from your crazy life for three nights or whatever, and really show you something. And listen, not everyone can do it. I know the budgets are you know crazy, whatever, but trips like that. I was the only editor to go, editor to go was me and a publicist. We went, it was just the two of you.

SPEAKER_02

There was no influencers in the right. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, this was how this was a while ago. So like nowadays, most brands don't know. I don't remember when I went on the trip. And it just like it was so amazing. Like, you know, I'm like in the Dead Sea, and like, you know, I left that trip being like, wow, this brand like is amazing. And before I would have been like, ahava, you know, so like that's an example of like that trip, like kind of changed my life. And I fell in love with the the publicist and our relationship, and like that brand will always hold like a special place in my heart, you know, from that trip for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Would you ever have a beauty brand?

SPEAKER_04

People ask me this all the time. April and I were just chatting about this the other day. I think unless I had, and I w I wish I every night I write, Chris, that I'm gonna get some crazy idea. I would love to have a brand. I don't know if it would be like a product brand, um, but I would never do it unless it was something like so like unlike anything I've ever seen, which I can't really imagine that happening.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because you've seen so much.

SPEAKER_04

So much. Yeah. What was it? I'd love to do something more in like confident the confidence with like girls.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, is there a cool ingredient that you've been really excited about lately that has like come across your desk?

SPEAKER_04

Or I mean, I just did a story on PDRN, the salmon sperm. And I think a lot of times you hear these, you know, these trends and you're like, oh God. And most of the derms that we talk to are like TikTok has like people come to me because they've like screwed up their face, because they've done something. But I know it's scary. I know.

SPEAKER_02

And they're thinking that they're like diagnosing themselves. They're seeing it on TikTok.

SPEAKER_04

You guys still need us to tell you the right thing to do. Um, but that ingredient, I interviewed three derms l last week about it, and they were all really excited about the potential of it. It's hard because I feel like at this point there are these standard, like, you know, ingredients that we're all bored of because we've written about them a hundred times. The retinol, the glycolic, you know, you're like, we know, but I still feel like they're like tried and true for a reason. And sometimes these things will pop up and they'll sound like flashy and cool and fun, and brands put them in in a hot pink jar, and you're like, okay, I need this. But most durums will say the other ingredient like worked as well. You know, the classic ingredient is probably the winner.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Where do you think the beauty industry is going? Because it's so oversaturated. There's so much happening, but like from where you sit, where do you really think it's going?

SPEAKER_04

I feel like we're seeing a lot of back to basics, which I know isn't super fun or sexy, but I do think right now, like in the I feel like it's becoming more fun again, which I love. I feel like that like the 2016 trend that everyone's posting about. It's like you still you see these pictures and you're like, oh my God, these look so dated and how did this happen? But I do feel like that was a time where like people had more fun with beauty. Like, I hate when people take it so seriously. There's people are always like, what are the trends? What are the rules? It's like, you guys, just do what you like. Who cares? Yeah. That's like always my motto, you know?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, so I don't really know where it will go. I think the the most important part is to like have fun, do things that bring you confidence. Um, yes, like a good skincare routine is important and all the things, but at the at the end of the day, it's about like self-expression, creativity, and and fun.

SPEAKER_02

And what are your three kind of like holy grail products that are always in your kit when you're commuting? Oh my gosh, you guys.

SPEAKER_04

I my my poor back is broken because I bring so much.

SPEAKER_02

You're like three, Chris.

SPEAKER_04

There's seven million. Oh my God, there's so many. So many. If I was on like an island, I would be like my eyelash extensions because it's if I have nothing else, as long as I have like some lashes, I feel pretty and happy. Um when I came to your office this morning, I said the first thing before anything is I wanted a Bobby Brown face base.

SPEAKER_02

I love it at the best.

SPEAKER_04

I don't know what the official name is, but yeah, I'm upset.

SPEAKER_02

Vitamin enriched face base.

SPEAKER_04

Everyone, I was just at a lunch. Someone's like, Let me see your makeup bags. Everyone always wants to go through it. They saw that. They're like, this is so old school. I'm like, I love it. I don't care about any of these new primers. That's what I use. I feel like it's so good. It's the OG, but for a reason. Like it's so good. I love it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and my favorite skincare right now is Karen Bertov. She's like an esthetician. Um, I think she has a clinic in London and Tel Aviv, and her stuff's incredible.

SPEAKER_02

That's amazing. The brand available here. Birdwars. Okay. Oh.

SPEAKER_04

My bougie, my bougie moment.

SPEAKER_02

Very, very chic. I love it. All right. Well, we're gonna get into branded banter. One answer, don't think too much about it. Oh gosh. All right. What's one product or trend you're officially breaking up with and never buying again?

SPEAKER_04

I hate anything mattifying. I like to glow. Oh. So, like any like powder.

SPEAKER_02

Founder-led brand or celebrity brand? Founder 100% all day, every day. Organic influencer seating or paid partnerships? Paid partnerships that feel organic. Love it. Virality or longevity? Longevity. Big budget campaign or scrappy idea with cultural relevance. Scrappy. What's the most overrated word in marketing right now? Clean. One word that that will define the next era of beauty brands. Trusted. If you were launching a brand tomorrow, what would be the first thing you'd obsess over? Probably the name. Okay. I love it. Have you ever thought about the name that you need something? No. It's like a maybe like a mix of your kids. I know, totally. I was like, aka Georgie. Yeah. I know. Oh my God, I love her name so much. Well, thank you so much. This is amazing. I'm so glad that we had you on. You're such a like you have so much knowledge in the industry, and you're just, like I said, you're so real, you're so honest. And I think that so many people can learn so many valuable lessons from being someone like you in the industry and just being leading with heart. I think that you always lead with heart. That's like one thing that I will say consistently has showed up for all the many, many years that I have known you. So I'm glad that you're so excited. Thank you. All right. Yay.

SPEAKER_01

This podcast is for informational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by guests are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views, policies, or positions of MMC or any of its affiliates. Guest appearances do not constitute an endorsement.