The Real Way Doctors are Building Credibility Online with Dr. Sheila Farhang

In today’s healthcare landscape, you must have both the expertise AND the ability to communicate it clearly to build genuine trust with your patients. 

In this episode of Brandidly Speaking, Cris sits down with Dr. Sheila Farhang, double board-certified dermatologist and founder of Avant Dermatology, to unpack what it really takes to build trust as a medical expert in the digital age. From growing her platform organically over more than a decade to becoming a go-to voice across social media, Dr. Farhang shares how she’s navigated the shift from seeing patients to trusted public authority without losing her patient-first values.  

Cris and Dr. Farhang also explore how brand visibility is now shaped by everything from press coverage to digital footprint, and what founders in healthcare need to understand if they want to reach the right audiences in a meaningful way.  

This conversation is a must-listen for healthcare founders, doctors, and experts who know they have something important to say, but want to make sure it lands, builds trust, and reaches the people who need it most. 

New podcast episodes drop every Wednesday, hosted by Cris Gordon, Head of Beauty at MMC.  

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👍 Follow @Brandidly_Speaking on Instagram, LinkedIn, and TikTok and MMC on Instagram and LinkedIn. 

📲 We'd love to hear from you: hello@hellommc.com 

Transcript

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I used to think like they don't really want to know about how to layer skincare product anymore, but people do. And the patient sitting in my exam chair is the same patient watching my videos. You've built a massive network and community, largely through social, sharing your story, sharing your opinions. Because let's be honest, doctors are a new influencer. There needs to be some type of presence, I think, of doctors' business, maybe they're before and after. What style is their technique? You know, what are they known for? And build trust in patients. No me really is back to the feestics. And I think that a lot of people just want to know information. It's a brand new day, and you know what that means. It's time for another episode of Brandedly Speaking with your host, Moi, Chris Gordon. Today we sit down with Dr. Sheila Farhang, who is a double board certified dermatologist and founder of Avant Dermatology and Aesthetics in Tucson, Arizona. She gets real and candid about what it actually takes to build brand alignment, to show up in the medical world, but still be authentic to serving your patient while also serving a huge community on social media. And on top of that, she really walks us through what longevity means and how brands can get on board. This is an episode you won't want to miss. Dr. Sheila, I am so excited to have you on today because let me just tell you, first off, like scrolling on your social pages has me in that like loop of just skincare obsessed. I have been in the beauty industry for almost two decades, and ingredients, RD, talking skincare is like my love language. And I know so many listeners, like these are the questions we're getting all day, whether they're somebody that's building their own brand, whether they're just like a skincare junkie. And so we have Dr. Sheila Farhang on to talk all about the world of building a brand, leveraging talent like yourself. Because let's be honest, doctors are the new influencers, right? Literally, yes. And so I'm excited to dive in because I want to get a little real about what's actually working now. And you've built a massive network and community, largely through social, sharing your story, sharing your opinions, and trust is obviously a huge part of like your primary currency. As someone who is double board certified dermatologist and has all these amazing accolades, you also, when you show up on social, I'm sure that you have to make sure that you're continuing to build that credibility and build that trust. But is there a specific type of content that you found that bridges the gap of being real on social while still being super qualified, like you are? Yeah. You know, uh, thanks for having me on, by the way. Of course. Thank you for coming on. Of course. So I started my kind of professional Instagram page, Dr. Sheila Durm, when I was before basically I was Dr. Sheila Durm. And it was while I was in my uh residency training, Durham training, like over 10 years, 12 years ago now. And at the time there was no doctors on social, and people followed me for lifestyle. Like so, why did you get on social if there was no doctors on? Like, what was the light bulb? As a millennial, it was kind of like a thing that we did. There wasn't a lot of doctors on there. Now we were kind of talking offline, but like it's kind of would be strange. Not saying that everyone needs to go up there and like be a content creator, but you you there needs to be some type of presence, I think, of a doctor's business, maybe their before and afters, maybe what they stand, you know, uh what type of uh what style is there is their technique, you know, what are they known for? And it's it's it is kind of an advertising in that way, but but you build trust and doctor and patients get to know me. But I started as a like kind of a lifestyle, and then it evolved, you know, I would talk about skincare or you know, little by little. And then now, fast forward 12 years, I have built this community that actually have they've kind of grown up with me in a way. And I really try to balance uh the lifestyle, which is more like how to balance being a mom. Like, what do you do with the stress stress breakout to really debunking what's out there because they do trust me? And and and and just you know, I used to think like, oh, they don't really want to know about how to layer skincare product anymore, but but people do, and people really it is back to the basics. And and I think that a lot of people just want to know information. I know it's funny how everything is really cyclical. I think that even as I've examined the beauty industry over the years, what was back then is now coming back. And and then because people are going to social media for their information, I call it TikTok doc. They're either diagnosing themselves, finding a doctor on TikTok that is helping them diagnose something. And that is essentially bridging a gap between the fact that they're sometimes not even maybe going into the doctor, which can be a whole conversation in and of itself, right? We want to make sure that people are being safe and getting the right guidance. But what I think is really great about the fact that there are doctors being able to control a narrative and give educated information on social is that it's where people are already looking. Yeah. So might as well have it be credible. Absolutely. And even in my real life, I will say that because pe there are some doctors that complain they're like, oh, people are just coming in, they're showing me these lips, or they have a skincare routine that they got from like some influencer. I think one, the consumers and the and and the followers are getting smarter. You know, there are some that are still getting their education from non-qualified people that are more, I guess, more on the influencer content creator side. But I think people are trusting that with kind of the code of ethics that doctors have, we do have a do-no-harm, like patient's best interest in mind type of thing. You know, if we taught if we endorse a brand, like we we really should we truly should believe in that brand. And it really should be a big brand or ingredient or supplement or whatever that is beneficial to the patient that we would typically recommend to our patient sitting in our it's the same. It's like if a patient sitting in my exam chair is the same patient watching my videos, and a lot oftentimes they are, but you kind of have to think of it that way because there is that little wall that people forget. Um but but you know, for me, you know, I'm an older millennial, and so I I see the benefits of social media. So on one edge, uh I kind of on one end, I like that it saves me some of the basic talking. Like people come in and they're like, I'm using this skincare brand to wash my face uh instead of like some crazy, you know, they they kind of know the basics, so that kind of helps me and my routine a little bit. And I can go through and be like, love this, let's switch this out. All right, you're doing too much here. On the flip side, though, they are getting kind of too much. So I am debunking myths, I'm debunking a lot of things. Lately, I will say, people have been taking a photo of their face or of a lesion on their body and inputting into Chat GBT. I don't know if you've done this. I haven't done it yet. I have not personally done it, but I know a lot of people that have done it. Yeah. And I wouldn't say, I will say people come in. I've probably admit something. I actually did this once because my child had a rash and it was like really late at night. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does this rash look like it's an outbreak from an allergy or is it a hive? Or so I did do that once. Yeah, yeah. Not for my own skin. I'm like, oh, but if it's for my baby, it's fine. It's so crazy because like, how would a photo be able, you know, like to see if it's a hive? You need to see if it's like injured, if it's bumpy, if it if it turns white when you press it. But I will say it gets the general idea, but it's still not like the same as seeing. So I will say that if you're worried about a spot, like I will say that there are spots that maybe people are worried about, and then they do show it and they are like, it could be a basal cell carcinoma. So they do come in. So I think it does prompt people to come into the office. Uh, for the cosmetic side, you know, people come in, do their face, and it says they need to do like radio frequency microneedling, this and that. And actually, I've found people that found me through that. So that's kind of interesting too. Interesting. Yeah, you can actually, I found people that come came to me because they were like, I want a doctor that is like really good at this but has natural results. And that's like I pulled your information through. They pull it a lot. And I have a lot of like Gen Z millennials do that. It's because you're so active on social and you're already optimizing GEO optimization. All the websites, yeah, it pulls it from all the websites, my website maybe, but like also every time you're linked, um, my publications, things like that. So seeing PR is important. It is so important. I know. People, it's so funny. I'm like, PR is having quite the renaissance because now it's like it's it's never left, especially for someone like me. I've been in the PR industry for years, and it's always been something that is so important. But now we're seeing that these articles are pulling through onto AI. I just was interviewed by Beauty Matter on this very thing. It's like there is a genetic search and there's GEO optimization that's happening, and it's pulling from articles from press releases from all the media things that you're doing as a brand or as a personal brand or as a doctor. So it's it's really interesting to see that that's like pulling through for you, and that's how people are finding you. Yeah, and and I'm okay with that. And and I think that I don't hate it, you know. I think that it's not always a plan. So, for instance, a patient came in, she's like, uh, you know, AI told me I need for skin tightening, like radio frequency micronealing. And that wasn't completely wrong, but for her skin type and maybe some of the breakouts that she had, I I recommended something else to do before. And it just kind of depends on her goals. But I wouldn't say it's like completely wrong. So it's a nice guy, you know. Um, it's not always accurate. We all know that, but it's it's kind of interesting to see like what you know, like that's the future, which is insane. I know it's so funny too, because I think that at the end of the day, there's like this fine line of okay, go to social to obtain information, go to AI to obtain information to help you get more educated so that you feel like when you're going into the doctor's office, you're maybe not totally in the dark. But don't have it stop you from going in and getting that expertise from a board-certified dermatologist, from a surgeon, from a neurologist, from a because at the end of the day, like AI is essentially a search tool, right? It's it's a computer that is analyzing data from everywhere. And so there's going to be a lot of different point of views also that are pulled in. So I always am of the belief that, and this is any any industry, but especially like this world of like beauty needs healthcare, is like use it as a way to feel more confident to have a conversation that you already need to have with a professional, right? And don't allow it to stop you from having that conversation. Exactly, exactly. And I think that uh if it's prompting people to go to the doctor's office to get something checked out, that is so important, or to make that visit, you know, maybe someone is realizing that skincare is not going to help with their skin, you know, some skincare products are not gonna help with your skin laxity or anything like that. So, so going in, and then maybe them seeing like, oh, this magic cream on Facebook is actually maybe like not really telling the truth, you know, things like that. So I or maybe that magic cream isn't for my like my exact skin, but it was perfect for the person who seemingly had this exact skin with me on social, but maybe really didn't. Yeah, yeah. You know, because it's like skin has barriers. Totally. Well, I love what you're doing, and I love that you're educating people so much on it through social. I think that it's been really interesting to see how derms throughout the years, when I first started in my career, you know, brands would go to a derm and they would want to essentially sponsor them for like the whole entire year, right? And they would want to have this like exclusivity. Nowadays, that's not so common because a lot of derms as they started to explore their own personal brands and develop their own platforms, wanted to make sure that as you said, the advice that they would give someone sitting next to them in their chair at the office is the same that they would give if they're getting on social. And so are you seeing that a lot as you navigate partnerships? Absolutely. You know, we always say, you know, more no's than yeses. Let's and but I do really respect brands that seek out a board-certified dermatologist. Um, there's definitely a place for influencers as well, and having that type of uh information or influence, but I think having a doctor on board really shows kind of the skincare brand specifically that they care about the science and they care about the authority or credibility of what's, you know, uh what's representing their brand. And then on my side, it's so important. Like we definitely like we're very, very selective because I want to see show me the science. I always say, like, show me the science. I want to see the clinical trials, I want to see the papers, I want to see how the RD is. Um, I really it's not show me the money, it's show me the science. Which I love because it means that as you analyze and you assess every single partnership, it really has nothing to do with the money. Although, listen, money talks and I get it. But at the end of the day, when you have that certification, that is your name on the line. Yeah. Yeah. So I love that you're, you know, really, really. Because when you, as a physician, if I'm not loyal or if I break trust, I think that's just that's I think that's really hard as a physician to do that to people. And I think, and and I would say a lot of my colleagues also were like really careful. Me particularly, I'm very careful about the brands. And and and I will say I do like long-term partnerships. Yeah. Uh, because it tr it and I have the few brands that I kind of do partner with, they're years long. Yeah. You know, because I you know, I I love the science so much. It really, it really is. But but but you can't be necessarily exclusive to that. Right, right. I mean, sometimes they are. And and but it's tough because it's like I can't just recommend one type of sunscreen. But that moment for that sunscreen that, you know, is for rosacea skin type or you know, things like that, that's that's gonna be a great product for that for that person. But but yeah, it can be tough sometimes. What would make an enticing exclusive long-term brand deal for you? Something that like you felt like was really aligned and allowed you to still feel like you're staying in your lane of being credible. Yeah. Where is it a brand coming to you and maybe saying, like, okay, you have this exclusive contract with us, but on social, if there's another brand that's in the shot or another brand that you do mention, here's a list of the brands that we're okay with. Like, what does that actually look like? Yes. So there are just a few that are very close, and I think brands are really open to it, especially when they are working with doctors. Like, if there's another brand that has like the exact same ingredient or they're trying to do the same thing, like we're, you know, they're pretty fair to say that. Um, for me, it's more about maybe um not a specific product, but maybe uh some ingredients or how they formulate their ingredients. So, say it's like a retinol brand that's over the counter, um, and they have a lot of different products with that retinol. Um, that's kind of what I like because again, I'm not I'm I'm talking really about like the the scientific data of uh this specific ingredient and the the delivery and what it does for the skin, what it does for elasticity. So that's kind of like my my thing. And then now going into not only anti-aging but skin longevity, there's like a whole bunch of other ingredients and procedures and treatments. There's just like so many, so many things to to analyze and and really talk to talk to people about because people really do want to know what is recommended by a dermatologist. Uh, and and I want to make it them feel like it's it's actually valid. Yeah, and you want it to feel accessible to you. Yeah, like accessible information that before they can get to you or get a consultation at your office, they have this kind of like first line of defense where they can go on social, watch one of your videos, yeah, and they can get some information. I think that's really interesting. It's also interesting because there's this like intersection of beauty and healthcare. And I, you know, I sit more on the beauty side, but as an agency, we also have this big healthcare practice, and we're starting to see our worlds merge. And I think the reason is because over the years, as we've recognized that beauty brands are able to do things fast and nimble and try things, and there's less red tape, right? And then in the world of healthcare where it's like prescription medications and all of that, there's a lot more red tape. It takes a it takes longer to get things to the finish line. It takes a lot more steps to approve a campaign. But there's things that the both worlds are learning from each other, right? Like beauty's kind of borrowing from the healthcare world world in the sense that the science is important, and obviously we're seeing brands lean into derms and plastics and et cetera, et cetera, for that very reason. And then I think healthcare is starting to also borrow from the beauty world because at the end of the day, it's like to be able to have campaigns that still feel culturally relevant to the consumer today and the way that the consumer is getting information is critical. And so it's been really interesting to see. And I feel like you kind of sit at the intersection of both. A hundred percent. Like just an example, uh, I finished uh or yeah, we basically just finished a clinical trial at my office for patients on a on a product that was you that's supposed to be used as a recovery serum post-laser treatments. So this is a product that's out that people can get, but then I'm kind of working on like the med advisory kind of type of role, which I love, and doing kind of like the clinical science stuff. So that's kind of like the partnership that that I love and that brands can really benefit from. That's different. Yeah. I know the science is important. There was a little bit of a moment in time where I think that people were skeptical about yeah, totally science. I mean, do you want to talk a little bit about your experience in that world where there are like more comments on social and people trying to like, you know, come at you? Like what was that really like from where you sat? You know, it was, I feel like it was a few years ago, and I feel like people were just really nervous. They almost like lost control, you know, they didn't have control about the situation, peak pandemic, you know, things like that. But I think slowly, like we were in it for the long run, like just keep the tried and true, like keep to ourselves, like less controversial. And so I think that they realize that, oh, wait, when we see patients, like in my clinic, uh, everything is very like in the system, right? So say you come to my office and I look at your skin, I'm doing a skin check and I'm like, okay, moles, uh, like a little bit of sun damage. We talk about maybe a little bit of acne scarring or something like that. And uh, and that's all in the system, right? And then it computes like a level of service. And then say we prescribe a medication. Like you're like, oh my, I'm like breaking out. So I prescribe like a medication. That medication is usually generic. So I put that in there. That level of service, like usually is that you level of service will go up because I like prescribe the medication. I'm managing it for you, but there's no like set like outer world where it's like that medic, that generic antibiotic cream is paying you, you know, from this end. So I I wish we were more transparent on that end, which is like your visit is just like me and you, let me just treat you in this sense, and then whatever the insurance is involved, it's it's it that's truly just what it is. It's like you put it in there. Versus like it's not like it's not like that one medication is not an affiliate link. I think that, and there are people out there, you know, with peptides and everything going out there and saying, like, you know, click my link for my peptides. You know, that is that is, you get paid for that directly, you know. But the prescriptions and all of that, it just doesn't work like that. And I and I feel like people don't know yeah how a level of service works with like insurances. It literally is like we put in the system and then it kind of just like computes it based on like insurances. Yeah, so it's two different things. It's like you can be sponsored by a brand, a skincare brand, a beauty brand, or you know, in some cases, even a brand where like you're doing clinicals or research. Right, right. That's separate from the advice that you would maybe give to a patient that's sitting in front of you and actually describing what they're going through and you are analyzing their skin, and then you're prescribing them something based on healthcare, right? And like the healthcare system, the way that like insurance works with prescriptions. Yeah, yeah. So it's two separate things. Exactly. And but but I will say, you know, uh on and then the kind of more cosmetic side. So that's the medical visit. And then of course you could be like, what do you recommend for like skincare, anti-aging? And then I will recommend some. Some of those products will be in the office that you can purchase. Some of those products, which I'm like really bad about. My office tells me I'm like a terrible salesman because I just my brain doesn't work like that. But I'm like, oh, you can get this product at the drugstore and this one and this one there, and then people are like, Do you have it here? I'm like, no, but you can like Amazon it, you know? And so it's kind of just balancing it and then just like thinking of the patient. And then some of those products will be stuff that you get at the office, some of those will be that you just like, you know, order on Amazon or whatever, or online from their website, it's fora, whatever. And so uh that's kind of like how I see patients, and I would say a lot of my colleagues do too. Like our brain, I feel like we have like separate buckets in our brain, you know, when you're like in my office, you know, it's this, this, and this. But and that's how it's a little difficult to to, and I find myself being in a little bit of a a hard situation sometimes with content because I'm like, I'm really generalizing this and I really don't like it. And I feel like I'm putting a lot of what ifs, but ifs, you know, buts and and all of that because it's so hard to generalize. Yes. But there I've gotten better in a way because people do have stretch marks and people do have. So it it's everyone needs to understand also that everything online is s not very personalized and it's a very kind of generic statement. Yes, I know. We say it all the time, even from the PR aspect, right? It's like I can go on and like do that thought leadership talking head content and be like, this is what you need to know to get your brand the most visibility. But it's like, but also I actually have five more questions for you specifically because there are five different ways that maybe you can like double-click on that and go a little bit deeper and figure out your strategy in a different way. But also it's important that we're still giving the public information so that they can take a piece of that information and apply it to their brand with the caveats, of course. I think in the healthcare world especially, you have to have more of those caveats because of your code of ethics as a doctor. And so, like what I'm hearing is navigating that world of like having that authenticity when you show up on social, authenticity when you're connected with a brand, making sure that the brand aligns with your values as a doctor. But also, like you made a pledge in your schooling that you would provide the best care. And so when it comes to actually creating content, it's like you're factoring all of those things in when you're actually saying yes to a partnership or when you're saying yes to do an event or you're saying yes to speak on a panel. It's like you're gonna show up authentically you because it's important to also the the customer, the client that you see every day in your office. Yeah, totally. And I it's so funny that you say that because um I have an LA office and I work with Shawnee Dart, and she's like celebrity aesthetician. So I want to know more about that. Yes, yes. So we I know she's the fact. So we kind of like uh the the Oscars weekend, you know, she sent me some patients that were like SOS, like red carpet, needed to get their skin situated. And um it's funny because she'll say, This is my client, and I always say this is my patient, because even if I I'm just so in a way where I'm like a client just feels like doesn't feel right to me. Like because it's a different terminology in like the medical world. It is like you are my patient, even if I'm doing like Botox, filler, lasers, you're like, you're still my patient because I want to talk about it. Yes, I know the best things. Uh like it's a medical aesthetics, right? So you want to think like uh my br my brain is just like patient safety, uh, even when it's things that are like on the cosmetic side. So I always say it's like you're my patient, you're not my client, you know. Because how many years of schooling did you go to? Like the thing is that like that's probably how they addressed it. So it has nothing to do even with the fact that it's like a patient versus client. Neither is right or wrong. But when you were in medical school, they probably addressed it patient, patient, patient, right? Whereas in the world of like where you're going straight into aesthetics or even like spa, facial, et cetera, they might say client, client, client. And so it's like just two different methodologies and terminology. It's crazy to me. Yeah, because like I feel still feel like doing filler and on a lot of and and yes, you're not like a sick patient or anything, but I feel like client just feels like it's very, yes, you get you go in, you get a facial, you know, or you go in and I feel like my brain is like I'm doing in like injectables on you. Like I need to make sure everything is safe. I'm thinking about your anatomy, I'm thinking about what make medications you're on. I'm seeing if you're a good candidate. So it's it's so different. But but yeah, 13 years to answer your question. I know. Wow. So it's like a lot of talk about the patient. And so that word and that terminology is like something that's now consistent for you. It is. Um, but let's talk a little bit about Shani Darden Studio and the partnership that you have coming up. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how that kind of came to be? Yeah. So I've been seeing uh patients, I have my Avant Dermatology and Aesthetics office in Tucson, Arizona, which is like the desert vibes, very chill. And I do have patients fly in or I do virtual consults, and then I have my like patients that I see there. And then I uh and then Shawnee and I just partnered up. So I've been seeing patients in Beverly Hills, and she has a like even happen. You know what? I we're kind of, you know, Beverly, like it's all so small world, but she came on my podcast, Derm Approved. Okay, and we hit it off. She was like, because she used to work at a derm office like years ago when she first started, and she has a love for derms. And I love yes, and I love estheticians, and I love estheticians like Shawnee Darden because she really doesn't jump on any trends, tried and true, like wants the skin health, like she really goes in and treats the skin. Yeah, very, very and and I have estheticians at my Tucson office because I like truly I don't have time to like talk really that long about skincare and the ingredients and to actually do like the facial procedures or or anything like that. So, so it's a really first of all, germs, estheticians, great, great collaborative. Yeah, and also facials are amazing. I know facials you can have like just like uh relaxing ones, but like Shawnee's facials really go and help hyperpigmentation. She has great, like really great ingredients because she's gentle enough for like um skin of color, darker skin types, because you can hyperpigment if you do it too strong. Yeah, have a lot of like. So it was just like I vibed with her, she vibed with me. She has a lot of clients that need like help quickly and that she would like send out for derm and she wouldn't know if they would like be seen or what the follow-up was. So it's kind of like an in-residence type of collaboration where uh once a couple times once a month we'll start that I'm there for one or more days and I'm seeing her patients. So I have a whole I have a CO2 there. Um I have a Qutera device there. So I have a uh Qutera Pro and Duo. So it's Erbium and CO2. Those are really great resurfacing lasers for pores, wrinkles, acne scarring, but it can go in and treat darker skin types too, uh, which you and I are both, we have to be very careful with with a lot of those energy-based devices. And then we have radio frequency microneedling, which is great for skin tightening. I love it. I was actually considering like getting this. Yes, we've got to chat about it. Yes, I love it for the body too, especially now. Everyone's like uh losing weight, have like skin laxity, uh, post baby. I see a lot of moms. I've got my four after my four babies, I'm like, maybe there's something I can do so I can avoid that tummy tuck. And then I can't yes, there are. There's so many great things that that are just advanced in the non-surgical world, like my world. Um, even though I do liposuction and stuff like that, people are awake. It takes me less than an hour. We just take it out and tighten the skin non-surgically, and it just is so great. But but yeah, so uh I'll be seeing patients there and uh and it'll be great. Hyperpignation, hair loss. There's a big longevity clinic I'm gonna have there where um I'll be kind of comparing their chronic Kardashians did this, I think, in one episode, but it's basically comparing their chronological with their biological age. Oh, they did do this. I remember it. I know it compares what my age is. I mean, after all my kids, I'm like probably 95. Yeah, yeah. No. And you can just do that with saliva, like a saliva test, and they look at the telomeres, they look at literally the health of your the cells and the components of your cells. And and that's gonna be really great. We have this other longevity where we take a couple hairs and then make that into process that in a lab where you get your secretomes and basically like stem cells, and then we can use that for treatments. So it's like really cool to be. You'll have to get my hair from the top of my head and not my extensions, I guess. Unless this the person with these extensions was very young. Those look so good. But no, but I love that because longevity is a conversation that everyone is having. I think a lot of brands are trying to jump on that bandwagon of talking about it. Um, some brands doing it really well, other brands not. There's retreats and centers opening up, and I love the fact that you talk a lot about longevity. It's something that you're obviously very passionate about. It's something that I've been on like my own health journey in the last, like over the last year after I had my last baby. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to understand like my gut health and like essentially how to like age in reverse, not because it's like I'm scared of wrinkles. I've actually never had Botox and I love skincare and I'm like I'm very much about exploring and I'm I'm not anti-any of these things. I'm always very open, but because there is something about the idea that you can feel your best for as long as possible, and that there's advancements and ways to do that now that we didn't have access to even a couple of years ago. Yeah. And so, what are some of your favorite longevity hacks? Okay. Well, you know, there are so many things that you can do at home. Define longevity first. Because I think for those listening that don't really understand it, they just hear the word. Yes, you know how it is. It's a buzzword right now. Oh, longevity, and they don't really know what it is. Define longevity and then tell me your favorite hack. So for me, uh longevity for the skin or longevity health in general is working on the cellular level, not to only anti-age, but to reverse, like you said, kind of reverse the aging process and position your cells, so in my case, skin cells, in a way where they are they are reversing and they are not aging as fast as they would normally. Um, and this is really big for skin because we usually think of like, okay, let's use a retinol, right? Retinol in it, you know, increases cell turnover. You get a little bit of exfoliation. Um, I mean, I love retinol, it's like the gold standard for anti-aging. Everyone should be on a retin, most people should be on a retinol. And um I know and I couldn't for a while because I was nursing. Exactly, yeah. Correct. Now I'm back on it. Yeah, exactly. Did you know that's a myth though? But you can be on it when you're nursing. Okay, so I didn't know when I'm saying statement. Okay, it's so funny because I'm a certified lactation counselor and I get the question a lot. And I just stayed away from retinol in general because I was like, you know what? I I'm just gonna stay away from it because there was something told to me that like possibly. Yeah, yeah. Now I was like pretty liberal. Like, yeah, yeah, especially with my fourth about the thing. But that was just like one thing that I stayed away from, and then I got I started using retinol right afterwards. You know what? It's a blanket statement that I think people should know about because when do you feel you're worse? Like, literally, you had your baby, you're so tired, your wrinkles are setting in, and then now you're like, no, sorry, you cannot use this skincare product, or you can't apply this on your like stretch marks that that are just showing up right now. Um, the reason why it's it's a no-no while you're pregnant is it can cause birth defects, like the oral medication, actane, isotretinoin. And so we don't recommend the prescription, you know, either. So then we're like just to be safe, obviously, you know, it will if it was really dangerous, like the bottles don't say, you know, they're like you can buy it on the anywhere on the shelf. But just to be safe, yes, do not use retinoids while you're pregnant. That's for to decrease any like possible birth defects. Again, with the oral, but like, okay, you get some systemic absorption. And I stopped as well. And um it and for those that are like um have been on a retinoid and then they were on a retinoid and they found out they were pregnant, just stop. Like nothing but you know, like just stop it when you find out you're pregnant. Some people want to be extra safe and they stop it before you know when you're trying to side of caution. Exactly. Um, but technically, while you are breastfeeding, there's no data to support that it causes like any the amount that it would show in your traits and the yeah, exactly. But there are other ingredients like hydroquinone and things like that that I don't recommend while you're breastfeeding. Uh but but typically I would say your most dermatologists would agree that like uh an over-the-counter like retinoid is is fine while you're breastfeeding. And it's like so if and so basically if you really love using it and you feel like it's important in your routine, it's like a simple going to your doctor and like asking him. Definitely asking your doctor about it because of course, like you can have rashes, you can be more sensitive, you want to make sure you're not rubbing it on your nipples, you know, things like that. So uh, but I think that if you want to do anything, yeah, definitely seek your derm. And and we do give patients a lot of reassurance. Like, yes, you can use this, you you can't use this. Uh, it's it's nice that there's like an abundance of caution out there in Blake and statements, especially for like doulas, like teaching consultants and things like that. But um, but I know some people are really stressed out because you're breastf you could breastfeed for like two years. I'm I know. Now I'm like, damn, my wrinkles from six months ago. I could have been, I could have been on that. But that's okay. That's all right. Uh, but so uh back to longevity. So that's longevity, right? We're just not anti-aging. We are literally reversing your skin cells and the health of your skin cells. Okay. And and aging slower. Okay. So what can we do? Ah, so you're like slowing down time, too. Totally, which I like. And I always say there are some things that even like collagen bank, right? Yeah. Because us, like we'll do some treatments. We may not see as big result as someone maybe like over 60, like post-menopausal, but uh, but we're but kind of like banking it, you know, we're like improving the skin, stimulating that collagen, so we're like slowing down the aging process. Um, especially because there's like, you know, there's big bursts of aging too, like after birth and having a baby, 44 and 60 were actually there was a study that showed like 44 is like one of the biggest bursts of aging, like and 60. So, but that's okay. Like, let's not fear those ages, right? Um and it seems like there's things that we can be doing also to have like lessen the blow of those age brushes. Well, you know, as simple as like red light at home. I love red light. There's a lot of science on red light masks. Like it's not gonna be like a facelift or doing things like procedures at home, but if you feel good, yeah, if you feel good wearing like your red light mask and like even the placebo effect of like your calming, yeah, exactly. I'd love, but there definitely is science like on the mitochondrial like cell level. Um, red light caps are great for hair regrowth. So that's red light, right? And that's things that we can do at home. Um, I love a little like facial treatment, like guasha, stimulating that collagen, dry brushing. So those are kind of like the wellness things, right? And then to my office. So I I love things that stimulate collagen and that promote growth factors in stem cells, right? So using your own blood, uh like a PRP. Exactly. So there's two uh there's two types of PRPs, like PRP, there's there's two types of things that we can do with your blood, right? There's two, yeah. There are two ways we can process your blood, right? PRP, platelet-rich plasma. I love this for like hair regrowth, maybe like aft for if someone's like really doesn't heal well, it's great for healing. And then there's the sister, PRF, and she's the she's the girl. Platelet-rich fibrin has a scaffold, so it pulls in stem cells for like weeks to months, and that's what I love injecting under the eye and the skin, and that I do on myself literally all the time, and that really has been shown to reverse the aging using growth factors in your own stem cells. Uh, and and I love using people's own, you know, especially when we're like younger or pre-menopausal, even like post-menopause, but usually perim premenopausal, you can still stimulate collagen. So, like, why not use your own body to stimulate collagen using radiofrequency, microneedling, collagen, um, collagen stimulators, like biostimulators, like sculpture, hyperdilute radias. And then you utilize that in conjunction with some of the exactly, exactly. And then there are certain injectables that aren't fillers, but that you can inject, such as hyperdilute radius or sculpture. Those are like called biostimulators that I can inject actually behind this line of ligament and kind of pull up. Okay. And that's how people don't get like so cheeky and big. So there's definitely like a finesse to injectables or what you're injecting to stimulate collagen, to kind of plump up and tighten areas without just relying on like things like filler. What's your kind of specialty when it comes to that? What are people coming to you for the most? They are coming, a lot of patients are coming to me, even flying in for like full face rebalancing. Ah. Yeah. So uh, and that could mean a lot of things. Why are they unbalanced in the beginning? Like what's been on their life. Okay, so aging. Oh, a few things. Okay. Exactly. So we have fat pads in our face, and as we lose weight or just aging in general, like say this one right here, this medial one, we have a triangular fat pad right here, and this falls. And and then you have this like line that shows up over time, and then you get this heaviness and this heaviness just because of this fat pad. So there's a lot of things that we can do with this fat pad. Um, you could inject a little bit of filler, and I have filler in my mid-faced fat pad that I did myself, my under eye and mid-cheek. So it can look like mine. Yeah, I'm gonna come to you. So it's kind of assessing that as we mature, our chin actually comes up, the bone recedes in and it goes up like this. So that's kind of more of the aging process. If someone comes in younger, because we also do have a university in Tucson, so I have all these like college girlies, which, you know, with the internet, they are all looking at their facial profile, but it's basically looking at the side, and I'll put a little bit of filler in the nose. It's a very, you know, uh uh you must go to someone very advanced and does surgeries, but doing a little non-surgical nose job, adding a little bit of filler above and below the bump and a little bit to the tip can give a big projection, you know, a little more balanced projection to their nose and face if they want. Without having to go that like the surgery route. And sometimes I'll do a little bit in the chin. So it's all about that kind of balance there. Um there's like a lot of those like non-invasive versions, yeah, but similar results and outcomes. Yeah, and I'm and I love it for the long run for my patients. And I'm like, let's do the assessment, all right, let's do a little bit of skin tightening here. It's like I give them a long-term plan. Okay, and that's how they reverse, and no one even can notice in a way. They're just like, look great. And everyone says it. They're like, I saw my family member that I haven't seen, or I see my girlfriend, and and they're like, You look really good. What are you what are you doing? What and it's like they can't really tell. They cannot. That's the best, that's the best type of work. Because it's like, okay, wow, they showed up and then like something looks different. Your skin looks great. Yeah. And you're probably like assessing their skin too, putting them on like a protocol. Yes. Even people that they're like, I'm not gonna do anything, I'm just gonna get a facelift. That will look really odd if your skin is not healthy, you know? You can't just have drapey, lax skin that's pigmented, that has large pores, that's really wrinkled, and then have no lax, you know, that has no laxity. So the skin is so important in in all in all ways. And we've gotten really good at like, again, like I said, non-surgically, there's microcoring that I can do that non-surgically removes like mil like half millimeters of uh cores, like non-surgically. Like it makes a little like it pulls out like little cores of skin. Oh my gosh. I know, I know, but like non-surgically, and the skin heals and tightens. Yeah. See, this is amazing, and obviously, like you are obsessed with skin. It's why you got into your line of work and and why you're obviously very sought after, and people are flying in, and uh, please, I'm I'm the next one flying in. So you heard here first unrandomly speaking. Chris is going heading over to Arizona. Um, or I'll meet yet, Shannon's lovely little. Um, but I I think it's amazing that brands have the opportunity to then tap into someone who is skincare obsessed, has the proper training. And I also find what you said earlier that is something that I also believe in as a publicist who's working with brands to try to make sure that we are partnering them with the right people that are very aligned in their missions and their values, is that nowadays brands are kind of looking across the board, like, what is the type of content that I need? So for someone like you, a brand's gonna work with you and say, okay, I really want to start talking about the skin. I want to start talking about maybe about longevity. Maybe there's some type of like reversal of aging conversation that you can really lead because you're obviously an authority in it. And then there is someone that is from the creator side where they're influencing on, you know, the the packaging that they're talking about, like their actual service when they went into the store to grab that product. So it's the there's different content pillars for different experts and different people. 100%. And there's room for everybody, and there, and it's all of those things are needed because the consumer, you know, say it's a makeup product, and I talk about the skincare ingredients in a makeup product, you want to have a makeup artist apply that makeup product as well, you know, there's or uh a consumer apply that makeup product as well, or skincare products. So it's all like super, super important, like all the little facets of a of a brand and a product. Yeah. And if you were working with a brand um that came to you and essentially approached you about a partnership, what would be like your absolute number one home run thing about them? Is it the the brief that you got that was really aligned? Is it the team that you're working with? Like in order of importance in the relationships that you're building with brands, what is the thing that sticks out to you the most with when a brand approaches you that you're like, this is like a yes for me? Yeah. I think is their deep understanding on the importance of a dermatologist to their brand and and and what that could offer them, and the um having that uh that dermatologists kind of talk about their ingredients, and it really is like them nerding out on the product, like so they're brief, really. Um it's like we did this trial, you know, it was like this much improvement in elasticity. We have this ingredient, this ingredient, this ingredient. And if I can talk to their like RD or their chemist or something, like that's like okay, so that ability to connect with somebody from the side of the brand that's actually also creating the product too. Absolutely. And I'm using so many skincare products too. Too. So of course I want it to feel good on my skin because I've I'm getting skincare products sent to me all the time. So if if an ingredient really stands out, if the marketing positioning I feel like is just really genuine, um, if they're a brand that that's kind of been around for a while, I think is really important too. Although newcomers are so important too, especially with longevity and and there's so much room for everyone. But I think it's like that's not even like one thing, but I think it's like the whole package, the feel, the vibe, right? And the way that they approach you, it seems like, and and you know, I talk about this with clients too. It's like we can't approach every group of people the same exact way. It seems like in your world, the most important thing is not necessarily about like the unboxing experience and how like social friendly it is, but instead it's maybe the ability to like tap into one of their RD team members. So maybe it's like a virtual like meeting where you actually get to meet and ask questions, or you know, because I think brands are constantly trying to navigate what is the best way to build a community out of doctors, out of influencers, out of you know, KOLs or industry leaders, or you know, there some uh article came out, it's like founders are now the new influencer. It's like everybody can be influential, but everybody requires something different to build that connection with a brand. So you really have to make sure that you're like tweaking your approach based on the people, you know. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. But I think that uh for for brands, you know, it's it's really understanding the product and it's like philosophy and it's like what it what it really means, what it does for the pa, you know, what's the experience. And if a dermatologist fits into that, then like beautiful. Even like skin and hair and nail, you know, hair and nails are so important too, as from a derm perspective. And so I don't think people kind of know that, you know. Um, I've worked with a nail company in the past and and I loved it because we talked about nail health so much, and it was like a really people, you know, are getting manicures and gel manicures and all this stuff, and it's like that education portion that I could have provided and just my candid like topics of talking about it online was just so important or hair, you know? Yeah so important. No, it's great. And at MMC, we're really making sure that we talk about how brands can earn their place. And obviously, in the world of beauty and skincare and virality and what's trending, I think that there are brands that are constantly trying to navigate like what is important for us to is it that we need to have the next viral product? Is it a and I always say, listen, you have to have a good product. A good product, not just you can have the best marketing, but like people kind of people are so smart and they're so smart. They are. You really need a good product. And but you need that kind of some that market. I heard I've read something and I hope this is not true because it's so sad. But someone was like, in order to like be, you know, known in the skincare game, you gotta have like three million dollars. Oh my god, I heard of that on a podcast. Yeah. And listen, I think yes and no. It is true and it's not true. Right, right. Like I think that there's ways to build brands. And I don't want like early stage founders to get discouraged saying that they have to have millions, but you could bootstrap a brand. You totally, absolutely could. And yet you have to be thinking forward as to what is going to make your brand get out there in a mass way, and that might require some fundraising or partnership. I encourage bootstrapping. Yeah. You know, so you can know more about it. And then you're really in it, you really understand the ingredients. Start really simple, and and then that's how you build your community. Yeah, you know. Yeah. Well, is there an ingredient right now that you're like, this is the ingredient that I am obsessed with or I have been obsessed with for a long time, and now it's finally getting like the accolades, like as a skincare buff and as a derm, like what is that thing that you're like everybody should be incorporating this? That's a really good question. And this is kind of more in the longevity game. So um I would say that peptides, peptides and skincare. I don't peptide. Injectable peptides or supplement? Okay, peptide. Topical. Yes, yes. We can talk about injectables at some point. But but yeah, for I think that safely you can apply peptides and and there's a lot of research on peptides. So for instance, there's a skincare product that has neuropeptides, and it really works on like static lines. So those lines that you see when you're not making facial expressions. And for me, that was the thing I needed while I was pregnant because it's pregnancy safe. I was able to really kind of slow down the process of like my lines and reverse them also without because we couldn't use the retinoids. So I think peptides are huge, plant-based exosomes are great, uh, growth factors are amazing, microbiome and skincare to really focus on that skin barrier and making sure that's healthy. Those are kind of like my my my girls. Those are like my ingredients that I love. And I do talk about that on like for Derm approved. I kind of go in and dive deep into the nerdy, nitty-gritty science. Yeah, I was gonna ask because you're coming up on season two, right? Okay, so it's all about like ask you essentially anything. Like I'll have a guest on there. It could be um someone who has like, you know, um celebrity makeup artist. Um we talked about one there, we did uh one with someone there who was like perimenopausal, and which can cause, you know, perimenopause can like last 10 years. So we're talking about like, is estrogen actually good on the face? You know, like things like that where it's I'm debunking, I'm like talking about what type of laser may be right for your skin. I'm kind of delving into what longevity skincare is, a makeup artist we're gonna have there, talking of maybe like celebrity facelifts. So it'll be it'll be really good. Oh, that's so exciting. Well, I can't wait to listen. I'm gonna get into um branded banter really quick. Yeah. So one answer, don't think too much about it. What is one holy grail product or ingredient that if you lost tomorrow you'd replace immediately? Um, a product, specific product right now. I would say the skin suiticals uh PTox with the neuropeptides. Oh, all right. I'm gonna go to the store. What's one skincare hack that you're officially breaking up with and you never want to see again? Ooh. I would say like skin flooding, like literally or skin uh what's it called with the Vaseline? Slugging. Slugging. Like Vaseline all over the face. Uh no. No, no, thank you. Even though my when my child gets into the Vaseline. That you can do and it's all over him. Yeah, but they can do that. You can also do it around your eyes and like around your nose, but no slugging all the way. Full face, no. Founder-led brand or celebrity brand. You know, well, fo there are some really nice celebrity brands, right? But I would say um founder uh founder-led brands. Yeah. I mean, they're both really good. Organic led to the biggest. Depends on the story. I love it. That's a hard one for a lot of people to answer. Organic influencer seeding or paid partnerships. Um well, organic. Yeah. Virality or longevity? Longevity. Big budget campaign or scrappy idea with cultural relevance. You know, I think both can work and it really depends. I love a good, like, small campaign, and it like is the underdog and does amazing. I love that. What's the most overrated word in skincare right now? I would say longevity, but I love that. Um, let's see. I mean, anti-aging is something that that I feel like people don't really understand because we do want to like age well, you know. We're not like anti-aging. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's almost like, oh, we're so against it. So I feel like we can like change that word up a bit. Yeah, I know. Anti-aging as a like a whole as a word needs like a PR candidate. It does. Ding. If you're launching a new brand tomorrow, what is the first thing you'd obsess over? Okay. Well, um longevity and skincare and beauty. One word that's gonna define the next era of the beauty and aesthetics industry. I think it's gonna be it's gonna be longevity. Like, really. I think people are gonna really look at the ingredients and they wanna feel good. And that concept really is for like your gut, your mind, everything. Well, I love this. And you have been a fantastic guest. But for listeners who want to keep up with you and want to know all things, where can they connect with you? Where can they find you? Where can they fly in to tell us everything? Okay, so my social is at Dr Sheila Derm, and I'm on uh Instagram mostly, but I have Facebook, uh I have Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok as well. My office is Avant Dermatology and Aesthetics in Tucson, Arizona, as well as Beverly Hills. And yeah, if anyone wants to book, it's info at avantdermatology.com. Amazing. And they can jump on a listen on season two of the podcasters. Okay, well, thank you so much, Dr. Sheila. This was wonderful. Thank you for being so honest and transparent about the world of skincare and healthcare and beauty and how all things merge together. I'm excited for everyone to give this a listen. Yeah, me too. Great. This podcast is for informational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by guests are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and policies or positions of MMC or indivisibility. Guest appearances do not constitute an endorsement.