Interview: Tom Willis - #006

The bond between a father and his son can make or break a man. It can prepare the son for his future, or it can stall him as he pursues it. 

In this episode, Mike welcomes his own father, Tom Willis. You'll learn of his struggles and triumphs and how God can use both to shape the legacy you leave. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Hey y'all, welcome back to Miking Disciples, where we are having this podcast coming out every other Monday here at the part of High Point Church, and we're trying to make men into disciples of Jesus. My name is Mike Willis. I'm the host of this, and I'm the ministry development pastor here at High Point Church in Lake Wells, Florida. And I'm really glad that you have joined us, and I hope that uh we are um gonna give you some things to think about and and really some some ways to examine your own life as men and how you can become the man that God wants you to be. Our guest today is a very special guest, actually. It's my dear old dad, Tom Willis, here from Mobile, Alabama. Here, dad, say hello. Hello, good to have you today. So, um, how many podcasts have you been on in your lifetime? Never none. Okay. First, this is the first one. So you're leading off here. How many podcasts have you listened to in your day? Uh, not many. Okay. So, but you have though. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

I have listened to some.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Okay, good. All right. So you're an old pro at this then. You got this.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

This is just you and me talking back and forth like we would be if we were watching a game. Uh, we just don't have to yell at the TV like we do when we're watching a game, okay? Okay. So I'm glad you're here. It's good to have you. You and mom are here. Uh, you came down from Alabama about a week ago. Um, you got a new granddaughter, right? Granddaughter, she's just a little over a year old. Okay. And she's on her way down here in a couple of hours to spend the night with us at our house. So looking forward to seeing her. How how's that been like with having a granddaughter?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Oh, it's been great. You know, we we have two uh uh we have actually four grandsons and three granddaughters. Yeah. Two of them are step-granddaughters. Yeah. But uh it's been wonderful. She's just now trying to walk some. But she, if she's not walking, she's crawling all over the house into everything. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

She's always smiling and she's always happy. Good. Life changes once they start moving, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

They're they're finding that out, my son. Yeah, yeah, because this is their first. So uh my brother Jeff. So well, I I'm look I'm excited to see her and excited to see my brother as well. He and I have a great relationship. And uh, I want to just talk to you today about I want to hear your life story, really. And there's there's men listening to this um that are um they either are young dads like Jeff. Um, they're either they're, you know, they might be married, they might be single, they might be in the middle stage of life, or there might be some that are on the the in the second half of their life. And so we're gonna talk about a lot of those things about what God has done in your life and the things that He's brought you through and the things you've experienced. And so I'm just uh really interested in that. And I the I've been looking forward to this. Number one, because there's a lot of things about you that I haven't heard before, just when we were talking about this last night. And number two, just because I really think that there's guys out there that are gonna listen to this and they're gonna go, oh wow, that encouraged me or that challenged me, or I never thought of life that way. So I'm excited to hear what you have to say. Uh, are you excited to share it? I am. I'm gonna do my best. Okay, good. All right. Well, here we go. I've got some questions for you. We're just gonna talk through them, but remember, this is just you and me talking, okay? So I I would love for you to share what your life was like growing up. Where are you from? Where were you born? All of those things. Well, I was born in Bamers, Georgia. Home of Kirby Smart.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah, we try not to remember that.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Yeah. But uh he wasn't there when I was a lot older and anyhow, we actually grew up in the country. We lived, I was lived out in the country until I was went to the fifth grade. We moved to town then. But we had a great time. But when I was young, me and I have three sisters, and they're uh they're all two years apart except the the four youngest sister, she's three. But anyhow, we all had a pretty good time. My mother stayed home and sewed, and my dad worked. He was uh he worked in sawmills, but his main job was to uh figure up all the lumber, and he was very, very knowledgeable in math. A lot of people would come to him when they had trouble figuring out equations or math or whatever, you know. But he was good at it. But like I say, he worked in a sawmill. My mom mainly staying home to take, stayed home to take care of us. And we're we all enjoyed ourselves out in the country. We played together. I had a cousin lived down the road from us, and my grandmother and grandfather lived across the road. Uh my uncle and his their son, they live right next to them. So we were all within, I'd say a quarter of a mile in together. Oh, that's great. We had a little post office, a little store. That's about all we had in the country. Okay, okay. But uh and like I said, when I went in the fifth grade, we moved to town. My mother got a job in town in a sewing factory. Okay. And uh so my dad worked at a sawmill, so it was a lot easier when we moved to town for them.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Yeah, yeah, a lot more convenient. Yeah, yeah. A lot more convenient. Okay. And then um tell me about having three sisters.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

It was well, my myself, I enjoyed it because I was the oldest and they kind of took care of me. I didn't never have to cook any, they did all of it. Uh my mom taught them all how to cook. Okay. And like when she got, when I got old enough to help, you know, make the beds, cook the food, they did a good job helping my mother. And uh we we used, of course, just like any other brother or sister, we always had our arguments and stuff like that. But I always lost out on most of it because they would all three gang up on me.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, three against one is not a fair fight, right? No, um, so that's an that's an interesting. And and you know, when you grow up in the deep south, that was in Georgia, I'm from Alabama. You don't just learn how to cook, you learn how to cook. That's right. And there's a difference, right? Yeah, so um, so yeah, they probably took really good care of you, and and in turn, you probably watched over them a little bit. I do. I'm thinking. Yeah. I sure do. Okay. And you still have a great relationship with them. I mean, well, one of them has gone on to be with the Lord, but um, two of them you talk to on a regular basis. I do. In fact, when you go back home, you're gonna spend the night with one of them, right? Okay. Well, good. Um go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

I uh when we were young, we went to church pretty record. My mom and dad, uh, they would go to church, and it was just a little small church out in a country church, but I can remember that to this day we went, we had a lot of revivals back in those days. Yeah. And mom and daddy always liked to go to them at that time. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

So but as you moved into town in your fifth grade, so you were like what, nine, ten, something like that? Yeah, around nine or ten. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Who how did life change then? It was totally different. You know, we in town, you don't have the you don't have the places to roam like you did out in the country. So you we had to get used to that. Okay. But we've you know, if you get involved with uh things you could do like baseball and stuff like that could that you couldn't out in the country. Uh-huh. So I did, I I signed up for baseball right away. Because that's about all we had back in those days. Okay. But is as a young person. Yeah. Yeah. But we enjoyed it. It took us a while to get adjusted to people s living so close to us. But the schools, we enjoyed school, all of us. Okay. We always did. And uh our neighbors were so good to us. My actually my uh next door neighbor, we were really close. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

And of course, his sister was close to my oldest sister, so so you kind of found that community in in the city life then that you had out in the country. Kind of like that, a little bit different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you get into high school, right? Tell us about that. What was high school like?

SPEAKER_00 8:03

High school was it was pretty good. It was kind of hard. I mean, you gotta you uh get used to actually studying and uh paying attention to the teachers like you're supposed to instead of not, you know, when you're but it was it was our our school was pretty it was well it wasn't very big. We only had like a 140 when I graduated. Okay. Told me. Okay. But it was good. We had a pretty good uh sports program there too at that time.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

So you played three sports?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

I played baseball, basketball, and uh football.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Okay. And you ran some track, didn't you? I did run. So four. Okay. Yeah, I ran a mile and two mile. Okay. And now you have a grandson who's a distance coach at a high school. So it's kind of passed down as well. I ran and he ran, and now he's coaching runner. So um then as you finished high school, where what happened?

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Is I when I graduated from high school, I uh I almost got married, but I didn't get that. We wasn't really just ready for marriage and didn't have good jobs or anything like that. So I just I moved to Atlanta and lived with my aunt and uncle for almost a year. And I got a job up there in sheet metal as an apprentice, and I enjoyed it. And when you move from some plot small town like that to a place like Atlanta, it's a big change. Yeah. Culture shock. Culture shock, really. Everything's totally different. But I enjoyed it, I had fun during my year. And then after my year, I decided to, it was during the Vietnam War, of course, and I was gonna get drafted, and I knew it, so I joined the Air Force. Okay. And I actually joined the Air National Guard, and they when I went down to have my uh get sworn in, they taught me going into the regular, but which I did. I never knew that. Okay. Oh, yeah, I sure did. And then I was gonna uh come back and go back to my job because it was a union job to get your job back. Okay. You know, so but after I decided going to regular, it was completely different because you don't know where you're going after you got you through basic and you're tech school. Yeah. And mine was Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

You went to the frozen tundra of Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Frozen tundra of Michigan. And we didn't have any much snow at all down in Georgia.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Right, right. So that's another set of culture shock right there. It sure was. Okay. So then um you you were in the Air Force, and how long was it before you went to Vietnam?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Oh, I went to Vietnam in two and a half years. I went in in 68. Okay. And I went over there in uh December 69. Got it. Okay. Stayed over a year to December 70.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Okay. Okay. That must have been a nice Christmas present to come home from Vietnam.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

It really was. Yeah. I mean, you hadn't seen any of my family and nobody other than letters, is all we had. So couldn't FaceTime them or zoom with them or something. You could call, I forget what they call it, call and talk to them, but you had to say hello. I mean, uh, what do you I forget why it was done, but I think I did it twice the whole year I was over, but you could only do it a couple minutes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

So it was lonely. It was a really lonely time and a lonely place, actually. Yeah, yeah. So then you leave Vietnam and then what? Well, I come, we came, I came home and I was on leave for like 40 days. And then I got my f a next assignment was in Alabama and sell my Alabama. And I wasn't there, but about two, two and a half months before I met my wife. And I uh me and my wife on our first date, I asked her to marry me, she accepted. So we were see, we dated two months, we were engaged two months, and then we might married two months later.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

So is that the kind of advice you would have given me if I had asked you?

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Oh no, no. I would have told you wait until you get done with school.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Okay, okay, which I wish I had done that. Um but um so you dated a couple of months, you got married. Got married, and then and she was from Alabama. She was, she was from Greenville, Alabama. Okay, another big, big town.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

It was real big, it was about the size of Bamers where I grew up. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

And then you guys, so you lived in Selma, which is um has its own set of stories and history, right? That's where I was born. Uh talk to me about those first years, dating mom, getting married to her. What was that like?

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Oh, it was wonderful to me. I mean, I had just come back from Vietnam. I was actually just had decided I was ready to get married at that point. And you couldn't, you really couldn't do to me do any better than when I met her. She was, she go, she was, had been going to church since she was a baby. She was adopted. And her mother that gave her away, her, the parents that took her, they put her in church the first day. The first Sunday she was at home, she went to church. And she went every Sunday for the rest of her life then. But they were really good Christian people. And they taught her everything. She loved the Lord young and she still loves the Yor today. The Lord today, I mean. And we had a good, great time. We went and did a lot of things together. It wasn't too long, I guess in about a year, we had our son I'm talking to now. And that was one of the best things that we enjoyed the most at that point, you know, was being with him. I had never been around my own son or anything like that. So it was wonderful, actually.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

That guy's pretty amazing. I know him well. So yeah. So that's when I came into the world in in uh 1972 in Selma, Alabama, like we were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Can I go ahead? My wife went through a struggle with me then because I didn't attend church at all much at all. And then, of course, she kind of I won't say she forced me, but I listened to her and I went to church with her. And I get that's where I've really got close back to the Lord. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Good. And um, so so you guys are are newly married, you got a baby, um, who was amazing. A good church that you're a part of, good News Baptist Church, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Which is no longer there, unfortunately. Talk to me about life those those first couple of years that I was alive, so three, four, or five years old.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Well, you we we had you in church, and if I didn't, your mama did in church just as soon as you were born, we might say, Car, but and I know she enjoyed carrying it, and I didn't go all the time. A lot of times it was work, or a lot of times it was playing sports or something like that. But you were in church, thank goodness for her. But uh and you ex you accepted Christ when you were young, you got baptized young.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Yeah. Yeah. Um then uh a few years later, and I'm gonna I'm gonna go here and and you talk about it as much as you want. Um my brother's born, Mark. Yeah, and then um you guys went through a really hard time. Did you want to talk about that and tell us what happened?

SPEAKER_00 14:51

He lived for a month, and we didn't even know he was sick. And and we I guess we got up one morning, I was gone to work. Linda called and said, I'm carrying him to the doctor. He's throwing up, and I don't know what's wrong with him. So she goes to the doctor and he told her to go straight to the hospital. So we didn't know at that time he had a virus all over his body. So they admitted him, they thought it was like a muscle restriction, that they it needed to be clipped, and they were gonna fly him the next day to Birmingham to get it done, you know. Well, the next morning he died during the night. And of course, we didn't know it until in the morning. My wife was with him, but uh so anyhow he had passed away. And we went through a terrible time at that point because you hate to lose your child, he's only a month old.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

I can't imagine.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Yeah, and uh it took uh I think it was two to three months before we actually found out what he died from because they we they told us it was a muscle reaction, you know. Anyhow, the what they finally gave us, told us finally that it was from a virus that had spread all over his body. But it was tough on both of us, her just as much as me. And I I was going to church regularly at that time, but I kind of got away from church because I was trying to blame somebody, and I guess I tried to b blame the Lord for the Lord had nothing to do with it but help us. But I just got upset and I was mad. I stayed away from church a while because of it. And the Lord was always kind of on my back against to tell me to get back in church.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

But it went that was well, he died about a year and a half before we got transferred to Charleston, South Carolina. Right. And then but it was it was rough, actually.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

I can't even imagine what you guys went through. You know, I was I was five years old then, and I I remember being told that he passed away. Um I have a few memories of of seeing him at home. I don't think he was home very long. Um but I certainly, you know, now that I'm older, I look back and I can see um how difficult that was. Of course, you guys that have listened know that that 10 years ago my first wife passed away and went home to be with the Lord. So you've learned a lot about grief and a lot about pain and how God can meet you in those situations um as a result of that. You know, nowadays, Dad, we've got things like we've got a group here that meets called Grief Share, and it's specifically to help people uh through times like that. Um and I don't know how I think that's probably gotta be one of the hardest things someone can go through is to lose a child. Especially an infant that you haven't even gotten to to spend time with and see them grow and do the things that you think your child is going to do.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

And um Well, I started at that time I started I had drank before.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

But I started drinking more and more when we got to Charleston. I got busy at work, I got busy playing sports, and I would I wouldn't come home a lot. And I should have been home playing ball with my sons, both of them. And uh, but the drinking it was the worst thing anybody. Please listen, man. If you have children, you do things with your children, especially when they're young, follow them all the way through their life, get them in church and pray to the Lord because that's what they need, and you do and I needed it myself, and it took me oh, I guess it took me well after about about seven or eight years after that. Well, I don't know, we came back from Germany in eighty seven and I got into church I guess about eighty-nine then. But all those years I wasted the time I spent away from the Lord when I could have been teaching my sons both of them about what Jesus is for and what he does for us. So uh please think about that, what you do. The stay away from the beer. Uh you know, I don't mean to talk about it, but I know a lot of people don't want to drink, and I hope you don't. Because it's something it just destroys your life or it can. Thank goodness my wife hung in there with me and the Lord took care of us at that time.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yeah, wow, that's great. Uh and that is one of the things that I like if if we could just take a couple of minutes of this whole episode and put it out to any man and that we could, and every man that that is within earshot of this, that's what I would want them to hear. Um, you and I have talked about this, you know, now that that we're older, I I know that there's uh a lot that you wish you could go back and change, and I want to get to that, but um just knowing that that you've made it that back to the Lord, that you didn't stay angry at him. Um, and by the way, that anger is a natural part of grief. That's one of the stages we we all go through that um at some level or another, no matter what loss we've had. And so, but as I said earlier, I think losing a child, having six of them I own now, um, is probably the deepest and hardest pain that anybody can go through. I I do want to ask you w how would you say that impacted your faith when you went through that? I know you talked about being angry at God, but do you what would you say about where your faith was then? Was it dormant? Was it non existent? Was it lost?

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Or it was just dormant, lost, whatever you want to call it at that point. And that's why I say it took me quite a few years to get back in the Lord. But like I say, I don't uh please, man, don't if you get in the Lord, stay in the Lord, stay away from beer bottles, whatever. Just stay away from all that because you miss all the joy of your children to me.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Is there anything else you would want to say to men who are going through any kind of trial? Yeah, maybe it it's a death of a family member or someone close to them, or maybe they've lost their job, or their spouse has walked away from them, or their kids have gotten angry and they don't speak with them anymore, whatever trial it is that they're going through. What did you learn in that time that that you want to share with someone?

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Well, what I learned is you need to, as a Christian, we need to pray every day, and I didn't do that back then, but that's one of the main things I think that I wished I'd have been doing back in them days, which I do now every day. I pray for my family, my church, my community, especially the military. I'm a Vietnam veteran and I pray every day for the veterans of this today, you know. But uh I just learned to follow Christ is what I did, and I wished I'd have been following then.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

But what does that mean to follow Christ? Explain that to me or to someone listening. What does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 21:40

That means to pray every day, read your Bible, uh, read whatever Sunday if you go to Sunday school or whatever you do to understand God's word, just read. And if it's books, Bible, uh there's all kinds of pamphlets and things like that today. And and and uh All the things that you can do today to be with your kids as far as studying with them, you know, the Bible or uh uh you go to youth camps, Christian camps, and you know, things they like to do, and like you like to do with them too. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

We're sending our teenage daughter to two camps this summer. Um, you can also encourage them to read your son's book, right? She needs a he. You've read that. Yeah. Um I need it right now. Oh, good. Yeah, thanks, Nita. I appreciate that. Um, I hope you listen to this, and um I hope everybody gets the book actually. But um I I I want to talk about because you mentioned we come we come back from Germany. I'm 15, 16, I'm a sophomore in high school. We stay there. You retire from the Air Force that year. So you you were in the Air Force, you stayed 20 years, and um then you you retire from the Air Force, and for the first time in 20 years, you're looking for a job.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

That's right. It was it was I was really nervous about it too. Uh, because you do something your whole life and all of a sudden you don't have any as far as working a job at all. Well, I fortunately enough the Lord took care of me again. Uh we were when I retired, we were building a home right there in uh Rockledge, Florida. Yeah. And we didn't even know at that time what kind of job I was gonna do. I was supposed to move back to Georgia and work for my brother-in-law in air conditioners. That's right. I forgot about that. But uh we decided that we wanted to live in Florida. It would be better for our kids and stuff, you know, the community there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

But uh Your kids would say great decision. Yeah. Definitely both.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

They both have done well. Yeah. Uh both of y'all, that's you and Jeff. Yeah. But it was hard, it was hard, and finally I I was gonna actually uh I took the postal test. And I well, I I I went, I was supposed to took the postal test, I took the class and then I got it uh uh you get a letter from them to come to the date you're supposed to take the actual test. But the day I did that I had applied for a job at Kennedy Space Center. Well, I got hired that same day I got that exam date. So I went ahead and took the job there. And I wound up working out there 20 years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

But uh another great decision.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

It was, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Um man, I I look back at the the things and the places and the opportunities we had because of of where God brought you and what you did for a living. Uh that I just most kids don't get that upbringing. You know, I spent four years in Germany, um went through high school, we could go to any space shuttle launch we wanted to, and all of those things. I I want to ask you about job searching then, because nowadays, you know, you have things like uh Office of Workforce Development, where I worked uh a couple of years. You've got uh apps and and job search engines like Indeed and um you know EmployeeFlorida.com and some others, uh ZipRecruiter. What was it like looking for a job then?

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Oh, you had to go down to the uh what do you call it now? The uh I forget where you go search for a job and you had to go look through books. Okay. And they had little slides or whatever you could flip through those to see what were some put jobs that were open. But it was and then you contact those people about getting an interview. Yeah. Well, you go to interviews a lot of times, and well, they've already filled that job, or I'm not qualified because I didn't have enough education. And I had a associate degree from the Air Force, so I had a lot of experience.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

But uh A two-year degree and 20 years of experience got you in the door though.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

It did, yeah. It sure did. And but uh nowadays, if you're gonna get in any doors, you gotta have at least a college degree or at least a trade that you're really good at. Right. And and to me, they ought to be doing that today. A lot of kids that don't really want to go to college, there's there's all kinds of trades, anywhere from air conditioned, electrician to uh type, clerk type, it's all that kind of and they train you and they actually f provide you or try to provide you jobs. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yeah. I get a boss. And no, you're you're right. And and that brings up a great point to talk about because nowadays there is this shift in our world back to emphasizing the importance of trade jobs. That's right. Especially in this area here in Polk County, Florida, where we are, it's a highly industrial area. And one of our sons just started a job a couple months ago where he's traveling around to businesses, and I as best I understand it, and you could probably talk to him better than I can, it they remove Freon from uh, you know, uh compressors or units, and then they clean that out and put it back in. I could be totally off base, but my point is college wasn't for him, and he knew that. And now he's got a good job, and he's you know looking at getting married at some point and and being on his own. And and I'm I'm so proud of him because I understand the importance of trade jobs. I've seen you do that my whole life. And um, nothing wrong with it if you got a degree or a couple of college degrees, and there's nothing wrong if you didn't. Find a job like he's talking about, use the the services and the people around you, the relationships that you can build with people. Um, sometimes it's who you know and not just what you know. And so remember that as you're looking for jobs. Guys, I know there is somebody here listening who is in that spot. Dad, you've been there, I've been there, lots of people have been there. Um, we get caught up in who we are as a man based on what we do. That becomes our identity. But our identity really needs to be that we're men of God, that God is filling us with his Holy Spirit, he's making us more like him, and that is impacting the kind of man we are, the kind of husband we are, the kind of father, grandfather, employer, employee. Any area of that comes from not what you do, but who you are in Christ. And so that's the whole focus of this. That's what we're trying to help people understand. And um, I want to kind of move us along here.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Um, I want to say the go ahead. The the main thing about whatever you want to do is first of all, pray about it every day, you know, and just keep following the Lord will provide the right place for you. That's right. Or right job for you. But if you start out, you know, I wouldn't do that years ago, but now I do that every day. And just follow the Lord and and just keep calling people, writing people, whatever you do, and you he will provide a job for you. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

And he's real so good at getting you into where he wants you to be. That's right. Um, and we can get into trouble when we're when we're anywhere but that. And so we need to remember that. One of the things I want to talk about uh to kind of shift from that is uh getting back to your faith story, right? Not that that didn't impact it, but I remember in so I had I had gone away to college on a baseball scholarship, I got hurt playing ball, I had to go to physical therapy a whole summer, and I remember thinking, man, I could do this and work with sports injuries and so on. That's kind of when I started to shift what I wanted to do for a living. Um, we'll talk about what I was trying to do before that in a future episode where I wanted to be a rock star, but we'll get to that later, maybe. Uh that's a little plug for a future episode. But um I remember as I do that, that was the mid-90s. God really started to deal with my life and and who I was as a man. Some of the things we've already talked about. Um, I was married, we had a son who was like in, you know, his two to three to five-year-old stage, and um just trying to figure things out as a man. I think a lot of what you've been talking about is where I was then. And at some point I got called into ministry, and so we um went through a process and and uh left Fort Myers, Florida, and moved up to Ypsilanti, Michigan. And I remember when we left, I I distinctly remember this. We're getting ready to leave Florida, and uh you guys had met us for breakfast, you and mom. You came over to the Tampa area, met us, and we're heading up I-75. And I remember getting in the moving truck, and um you climbed up on the step there, and so we're eye to eye, and we're looking through the window, and and you are are telling me how proud of you that you were, how proud of me you were. I'll never forget that moment. Um, and we drove away not realizing that it was gonna be six years before we came back. But when we did in 2005, I had been there two weeks in Florida and you were being ordained as a deacon in your church. Remember that night? Oh, yeah, I do remember that night. Me too. And it was a real thrill for me because when I left Florida in 1999, you weren't really in a church going phase of your life. And then, but some things happen in those six years to where I come back, and not only are you going to church regularly, you've recommitted your life to the Lord, uh, you're involved in a church with mom, and now you're being ordained as a deacon there. And that's a big step of spiritual leadership that you were taking. And uh, I would love to hear about what happened in those six years that brought you to that place.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

I just I was kind of doing my own thing, and my wife, she started uh going to this different church called First Baptist there in Rocklage. And uh I don't know what oh, I was working second shift, and well, I was not seeing her any at all hardly because you know I worked, I slept during the day when she was at work, then I had to go to work. So the only time I could see her was early in the morning or late in the afternoon when she came home from work. But I started missing her, and I noticed how well she was getting involved back with the Lord at the first Baptist Church of Rockers. So I kind of started looking and thinking about it, and I kind of wanted to do it. So I did. We actually went to a singing in uh Orlando the first night. I took a night off that night, went with her over there, and I had a great time. And I realized at that point how life can be fun with your wife and with the Lord, because all those people were Christians I was with.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

And they were all friendly, they were all kind. It was just wonderful to me.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

How good? Do you remember who the group was you went to see?

SPEAKER_00 32:37

No, I should, but I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

That's okay. I was just curious. It was gonna be great.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Uh they were regular on TV, they're still on TV.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Okay, was it like the Gaethers? It was the Gaither. It was okay. All right. Well, thanks, Bill.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

My memory's a little gone there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

That's okay. Uh I've seen them before myself. So um, so you start going to church with mom at that point?

SPEAKER_00 32:57

At that point, yeah, regular.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Okay. And um, was there this big climactic moment, or was it just, no, I decided, I realize I need this, I want this, I'm gonna do this.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Well, I felt like the Lord was trying to tell me something. I needed to get back in church and start praying and start reading his Bible, like which is what it's for. That's the greatest Bible in the world to me. I mean, the yeah, the book, everything. Yeah. A lot of people, there's a lot of people, young people now, starting to read the Bible more, and that's great to me. But it was uh just an experience to see how my wife loved the Lord. She'd always been a church her whole life, and she was gonna always be that way. And I finally see I wanted to be with her and I wanted to be with God, and we we were Christian people. That's what really made me feel better, you know. And the fact that the I had the people at the church, they were some of them were older, some of them were younger, but they all supported me at the time. And I was really proud when I got nominated to be a deacon. You know, and when I got sworn in with my son there especially, that was a big moment for me. And that really changed my life more, even just to make me think about what I need to do as followers Jesus. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

What what were some of those things you thought you needed to change?

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Oh, I needed to change my ways. I I hadn't drunk had quit drinking a while. I mean, I might drink every once in a while, but I completely quit drinking. Uh how long ago was that when you stopped? Oh, when I quit drinking, you mean or just stopped? Oh, I quit probably around 2002 or something like that. And I didn't I didn't drink a lot now at that time. Yeah. Uh but uh no, I then I felt that, you know, that's not doing any good for me. It's not for any good for my family, or especially my children. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

So again, not a not a big um lightning bolt moment or it it just was, oh, this is something I need to to not do anymore.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Yeah, because I didn't want to destroy my family or my life. I you know. I wanted to be with her and you and my son Jeff. And our grandkids. Yeah. That was another big thing for us too. We wanted to make sure our because of our kids, or especially my son Mike here, the way he took care of his kids, he cared in the church. He did a great job with them. Wow, thanks, Dad.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Um you have talked before, you and I have had multiple conversations about that you did that later in life. So in in 2000, you were how old?

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Well, I see. Uh just over 50.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Yep. Okay. So I'm 53 now. So you're about the age that I am now. You are. Okay. Um, that's interesting. I never put that together, but you talk a lot with me about you wish you could have done this when we were younger, or you wish you could go back and change that, or you would handle that situation differently. And so you and I have talked about, first of all, Jesus has forgiven you. You know that. Yep, right. And and praise God for that. Second, you know, because I've told you that I forgave you for anything that happened a long time ago. Yeah. And and so, but there is this thing that you have have mentioned a couple of times, the guilt, shame, regret, whatever phrase you want to use with it, that still bothers you a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

It still bothers me. Yeah, it does. I think about it often, and I guess in my mind about things I missed in life that I should have done, you know, with my children, my wife, my family. And, you know, it's just it's just to me hard to get over that stuff. And I try to get over it, but it's and then the best thing I've done is just pray about it. That's the only thing that really helps me to get over this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

And and I just think it's a matter of that you, like you talked before, about, okay, I'm gonna start going back to church. I think it's just a matter of with God's help and with him renewing your mind and making you into a new man, it's just something you start walking in. Would you think that's true? That that getting over guilt and shame and regret and wishing you could do things different, you first of all, we can't. You know, we can't. There are things in my life and even as a father that I wish I could go back and change. Um, my my sons are older now, they're all in their 20s and 30s, and they are starting their own families. So there is things that I look back on and man, I wish I could do this different. I wish I could go back to that moment. But I think that there's there's men listening right now, and you can hear the sound of our voices, and you're in that situation, and and you're making decisions now that years from now, as God gets a hold of you, you're gonna wish you could go back and change. And I think that I would say to you, just start walking different. Just start doing things differently. Um, if you're staying out late and not coming home to your wife and kids, start going home earlier. Start talking to her like you appreciate her, like you recognize she is the love of your life. Start doing things to sacrifice for her and for the kids. Start leading them spiritually. And part of that is you have to set the example yourself. So you've got to do things differently than you used to do before. And so, Dad, what were some of those things as your life started to change then and you were becoming a man of God? What are some things that you did then that you didn't do before?

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Well, before I wouldn't listen to her a lot of things, especially about what I was doing, going to play softball and things like that. And she would tell me I need to pray about it, or I need to go to church or whatever, or we need to do money or whatever, when we would have money problems sometimes, you know, back when we were younger. But uh I just I don't know. I I wish now that I had listened to her about things like that. I mean, we have a good life now, and we had a good life our whole life, really, other than things I've done in the past wrong, which we're talking about, but uh I don't know. That's I think that's what we need to do. I just wished, uh and I say it over and over that I had known the Lord like she did her whole life, really. Right. People look up to her now. She's got she teaches a Sunday school class with I think she got about the average of 17, 18 women in there. Some of them in their 90s, some of them in their sixties. But they all look up to her. She's really good at teaching. So of course she's taught her whole life.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah, she was a a school teacher, so and and she's a student of the Bible as well. Um so in 2005 he got ordained as a deacon. I do, and then um life doesn't just become all rosy and great and amazing at that point, right? No, it does not. But what are some of the what are some of the things you've seen God do in your life since then?

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Well, he helped me to move on uh to what I want when I get up on Sunday, I don't just watch TV and not go to church. I get up, get ready, and I go to church. It's kind of hard because our church starts at 9 30 in the morning. So it's kind of hard for us to get our age to get up that early and get to church. But we do it every Sunday. We don't miss unless we're going somewhere like we're here with visiting our son.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Yeah. Yeah. But you'll be here with us in church tomorrow, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yeah, we'll be with you tomorrow, church.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

One of the things we talk to people about here is if you're gonna be a part of a church anywhere, um you need to attend it faithfully. Faithfully, that's right. You know, and and so if you're in town and able to be here, we want you to be here, and we say to be a part of what God's doing here, to experience him moving in people's lives. And so there is this, yeah, what what's in it for me? What can I get out of it? But then it it shifts as you start to live for him, you start going, well, how can you use me? So what where can I serve? Where can I be an encouragement to people? Some of those things. And so what are some specific things that you have seen God do? So you talked about being making it a priority to go to church. What are some other things that you've seen him do in you and for you and through you?

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Well, when I when we go out, I'm not afraid to just sit there and and I hear people talking and I'm not afraid. I'm always friendly to people. I open up doors, you know, I ask them how they're doing, but I'm not afraid to pray with them. I'm not afraid to talk to them about God. And uh That's awesome. Okay. And then yeah. So there's a boldness there. I used to be nervous about it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

When I wasn't doing the right thing at that point, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

But now he's strengthening you and he's filling you with his spirit, so there's a boldness that you have that you didn't have before.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

That's right. I I read the Bible should just about every day. I don't we're on the road now, so it's kind of hard to do, but I I'm I'm just about a third through the Bible reading again. I'm in the Old Testament, and that's kind of difficult. We just pray about that every day. We were talking last night, you and I, about uh Samuel.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Some of those stories are just wild about what happened. And uh that's what it life looks like when we try to do things without God's help. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I d uh.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

And the main thing to me is I try to it's hard to do, you know, when you're reading the Bible, just to see what God's point of the thing is, you know. It's always just to follow Him, follow His way. And if you do that and you pray about it, things will happen positive for you, not negative like it had to me in the past. And again, I'm not a perfect person, but all I know is I got the Lord in my heart, and that's all I need. And by the way, I'm proud of both of my sons. I have my son here as a minister, and he's a great, great minister, he's a great speaker, and he does well. He always make me blush. Well, I'm sorry, but I don't get to see him or hear him much. We we he's on the internet sometimes, and my wife actually watches him more than I do, but when I can, I do. Yeah. My other son is actually a band director. Yeah. But they're both pods, but what they do, and they're just great, and they have great families. My I've got a new granddaughter, she's only a little over a year old, and she she kind of love our life right now because she's new. She's the happiest little thing I think I've ever seen. That's great. Anyhow, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

I love it. No, that's good. That's good. What are some miraculous things you've seen God do? Anything he's provided or come through?

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Oh, he's provided with our m money over the years. Okay. Talk about that. We had to pray because we one at one point we almost lost our home, our car. We just got behind, and and uh it's just hard to do, and then you gotta sit and we actually had to work I worked overtime and a lot to catch up, but we did. We paid off, got back on our uh house payments, make got them caught up, same way with our car, and it's never happened again because we pray about and we give we tithe. We make sure the Lord will take care of you if you tithe, you pray about it, because he's definitely done it for us.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

And at that church that you and mom went to together, uh you went through a class called Crown Financial Ministries. Yeah, we did. And uh I remember that um you guys did so well that they featured you on one of their radio programs to talk about paying off your house. And and and so there again, when we talk about guys about how life used to be when I was doing things on my own versus how they are when I'm doing them for the Lord, that's right. Your priorities change.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

And and so uh we actually burn our deed in front of the church church that day.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

So you burned up the deed for your house in front of church. Yeah, that's awesome. Um, and you guys have done great ever since. You you have your own home in Alabama now, and and you're enjoying that, and and you've done some renovations, and it's a beautiful house and a beautiful area, and um yeah, it's it's really cool to hear all that he has done for you. That's right. So it the miracle is it starts when we give our life to him, but then there's so many other things that he does throughout the rest of our life for us to bless us. And that blessing comes because of our willingness to be obedient to what he's telling us to do. And so that that's another thing that we try to teach here is that we want you to be men who are doing God's will, that are practicing it. So you're going to church, you're uh reestablishing priorities, but now you're actually doing the things that he's telling you to do. So you're hearing the voice of God instruct you about what decisions you should make. And then as a result of that, when you do things his way, his blessing comes. Um, and we're not one of those prosperity name it and claim it churches, but we believe that there's some type of way that God comes through for you and provides and does miraculous things, things you could have never pulled off on your own. And so that's really what we're trying to get you to understand that as a man, when you make these decisions to follow Jesus and say, here's my life, I want you to come into every area and change it however you want it, you're gonna be really excited about the results that he brings.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

You don't have to stop everything you've been doing, but what I mean is what you your lifestyle you got you do each day. But it makes it so much easier if you have a plan, and your plan is read your Bible and your uh Sunday school book, whatever you need to do, to do your uh got time with spend your time with God, I mean, and do your own home things, you know, you're you're out with things that you go do. Uh but anyhow that's the that's the main thing to me. Yeah. Okay. I'm over talking things, but not at all.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

No, you're doing great. You're doing great, especially for uh your first podcast.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

I've got a couple of good f Christian men that uh our Sunday school class. There's two of them that one when one misses the other one takes over. But they are absolutely some of the best Christian men I've ever heard. They're they know they're really knowledgeable of God. They know what they're talking about because they study, so they spent hours studying and they and they well, one of them still works.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

But uh So you've got some men in your life then that teach you.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

We've got about 15 or 16 men, it's usually every Sunday at our Sunday school class.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Okay. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

And we do we study it and we pray about it and we talk a lot about it.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

We just don't talk about what the football game our score was yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Like we used to do a lot, you know. Right. But not anymore. We did we could spend time in the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah, it's okay to talk about those things. Yeah, it is, but but but talking about the Lord is what makes that community so so beneficial. Right. Um I I know that there are probably men listening who are on the fence. Yeah. Maybe they come to church every now and then with their wife or whoever drags them in, but they haven't sold out, they haven't decided to live for him. Um you were in a place like that for kind of a lot of years where you went back and forth. I did. You would make decisions and there would be a repeat be a period of time and then you'd fall back and then make a decision and fall back. And so it's it's easy to describe that process as sitting on the fence. What would you say to a man that's sitting on the fence spiritually? What what advice would you give him?

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Well, I keep bringing it up, but first thing he needs to do is pray. You know, he may not be uh in his life yet to st to do a lot of praying. And it's just like I wouldn't, you know. And it took my wife, and in fact, I'm my own praying and talking to God to help me. But when you're sitting on that fence, because like I've been there, I've sat on that fence for twelve, fifteen years, I guess, on and off, you know. But because you want to go do those things, but then it comes up, well, I I need to go to my son's birthday party, and then I don't go, you know. Those are the kind of and you might not be on that kind of fence. You might all go to all your sons and daughters' birthday parties, but but the main thing is if you keep them all together as a family and you try to keep God involved with it, even though you might want to go to a basketball game or whatever, or bowl or whatever, there's nothing wrong with that. Take them bowling with you. Or if you're in a bowling league, just remember that they got things that you need to do with them too. And I that's another I we've already talked about this a lot about regret. But I regret the times that I missed my son's when he was four or five years old, wanting to go out in the yard and play ball. And I was too tired, I want to do this and not do it. But like I say, he's a forgiving man, and I'm doing better, the best I can do. And I'm I'm I'm the age, I'm 76. But if you're on that fence, do your best to at least talk to your kids, talk to your wife, talk to your uh grandfathers, grandmothers, aunts, uncles, and your friends. And there's nothing wrong to talk to people who are not Christians because maybe you can convert them to be a Christian, you know. That's something I couldn't do. I've never been able to do it up till about I don't know, four or five years ago. I've got to the point where I can talk to people, and I'm not afraid to talk about it. Good. Where I've always been afraid my whole life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Okay. That's awesome. So at at this point, um we're kind of winding up our time here, but you've had three sons, you have seven grandkids, uh, you even got a great grandchild on the way point coming in September.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

I've got another one too. Coming too.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Okay. Um, and so now if you were gathering all of us men in the room, your sons, grandsons, and great grandson when he gets here, um, and you have the chance to say anything to us about following Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Oh, I would tell you, first thing you do is pray about it. Because prayer to me is the most important thing. If you do that and you can speak to God and it doesn't bother you to say what you want to say, because he's gonna listen no more where you you say bad things or good things, he's gonna listen to it. And if you can say the good positive things about him, about your kids, you know, and uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Okay, so prayer is a big thing. Prayer's number one to me. Okay, you talking to him, it's also where he talks to you. That's right. He's like, Mike, you you're making a bonehead decision if you do this. I made a lot of those, by the way. Yeah, same here. Same here. That's why that's why we get along so well. Um, and he also will say, you know, on those times when I don't know what to do, here's what I I want you to do. Uh I want you to leave Florida and go to Michigan. I want you to do that.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

Leave Alabama, come to Florida.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Yeah. Um what whatever it is, you know. Uh I want you to move into this career instead. I want you to, uh, a year ago we were looking at, um, we weren't looking at selling our house, but um, through prayer and through his direction, we did. And now we're living in a new home that we a year ago we didn't even think about, weren't even considering doing. So sometimes it's being willing to do what you don't want to do because it's what God wants you to do. Uh, anything else that you want to share with us as we kind of wind up our time here today?

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Well, I just want to tell uh, and we've talked about it a lot, but I just want to tell you men out there that I'm not perfect where nobody's perfect. There's only one perfect man, and that's Jesus. Right. And that's good right there. If you follow God and you listen to what He ha tries to tell you or does tell you, actually, you'll be better off, your family be better, your kids and yourself. You'll you'll find out that things work better for you. I mean, every day. And you might lose some friends if you decide to be a Christian, but to me, that's something don't bother me anymore. I don't want to lose any friends or nothing, but I want to be Christians like me, you know, and like my son and you and everybody else. So that's why you see so much uh people getting saved today in these colleges and the churches. Yeah, there's a bit of a lot of things. It's going on and it's really a movement now, and we need it the bit more and more of it.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

But anyhow, I thank my God Lord for that, and I just I thank the time I can talk to you. And if it's a any way I could help you, because I'm like I say, I'm 76, and I I'm I don't talk perfect anymore or anything like that, but I just want you to know to take care of your family and follow the Lord. That's the main thing.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Yeah, man. That's good. That's a really great way for us to end up. Uh talk to the Lord, love your family, and and trust him, and and you're gonna see him take you to some incredible places and do some incredible things. And so, Dad, this has been great. I I told you you could do it.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

I've never done this before, so I know I've made a lot of mistakes, but that's all right.

SPEAKER_01 54:05

But now we're gonna start beating you out there as a guest for other podcasts. You know, they might want to get you on because you're an old pro at this now. So you can put this on a resume or something. Um but um listen, thanks so much for coming on here and sharing your story with us. And and uh I've even learned some things about you that I didn't know, and so that's been really fun for me. Well, guys, listen, thanks so much for joining us today for Miking Disciples. Um, you want to say one more thing? I do. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

I want I want to say I'm a Vietnam veteran, and and I believe in the following the veterans and helping the best you can. You know, I just love the country. I spent my year in Vietnam and I know a lot of men, 58,000 is on the wall up at Washington, D.C., just support these people. They have they they they were in a situation though where they're just like in the w wars before, where they didn't want to be there, but they were there supporting their country. So anyhow, any way you can support the veterans, help them, Lord. Or help them. The Lord would definitely help.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

Right, right. And I love that. You know, growing up on military bases all over the world, um, I love that. And and I still have a deep appreciation for military and all that they're doing right now and and will continue to do for us. So, dad, along with anybody else, thanks for your service. Uh really appreciate that. Um Thank you for letting me be it over here. This has been great. I've loved this. It's it's been better than I thought it could go. So I appreciate it. Well, that is all the time we have. We're gonna um wind this up here, but thanks so much for listening today. Listen, if you have any questions or comments, uh you want to reach out to us, there's a link in the bio of this show. Click that and and reach out to us. I would love to hear from you. I would love to hear if you have questions or comments for my dad or for any of our other guests, or just about something in general that we've talked about. But um, this is uh just a podcast. We call it Making Disciples, because we are really trying to make disciples of Jesus uh in men's lives. And so uh that's where we're where we'll end up today. And I'll talk to you later where we're gonna try to help men become more like Jesus. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for joining us today for this latest episode of Miking Disciples. If you have any comments or questions, I would love to get for you to go to the comments or questions link that's found in the description of the episode. And I really would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks for joining us today. We'll talk to you later.