The Dancing Plague & MKUltra

Hey besties!! Joins us this while we talk about the dancing plague and MKUltra! 

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See you next week! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hey besties, welcome to Plot Foot and Punchlines. I'm Steph and I'm Mel. Two best friends here to distract you from the world. Join us each week while we both dive into a new conspiracy theory we saw this week and give our questionable takes on them.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

So grab your blanket, your coffee, and your emotional support cryptid.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

And let's get into today's episode.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Hello. Take three. Take three. Um, we're back. Sorry for this late episode. I am I was sick this weekend, but I am going to try to edit it and release it either today, like tonight, or tomorrow morning. Yeah. So it'll come out within the next 24 hours for sure. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

So thanks for being patient.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Hopefully it's worth it. Hopefully. Um, and Ibodic to all of our beautiful Muslim listeners out here. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Sorry. The first time we recorded this, I tried to repeat what she said, and it just came out so horribly white. I tried, but I just I'm gonna remain ignorant and say happy Eid.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Because that's what we love white people to do. Stay ignorant. Remain ignorant. I'm so sorry.

unknown 1:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

So my ignorant white friend is gonna start us off today. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

I didn't mean that in like super ignorant. Uh today is also mine and Jason's three-year anniversary. The important one. Oh my god. It's always about race with you. We live in America. Yes. So uh even though I had a lot of time to prepare, um uh this is this was kind of hard to like dive into because there's so many different episodes of what am I gonna be talking about? So today I'm gonna talk about the uh dancing plague happened. So it it happened starting in like even before medieval times, like in the 1020s, where the first like sorry guys, I'm still a little sick. So in like the 1020s was the first like recorded known episodes of them, but they were kind of more sporadic. Um, so what I'm gonna talk about, I'll talk about those a little bit, but the ones that I'm gonna talk about are more widespread, like epidemic type.

unknown 2:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

So the dancing plague was a phenomenon that happened between the 14th and 17th centuries, mainly in Europe. It was also commonly referred to as dancing mania, choriomania, St. John's dance, tarantism, and St. Vitus's dance. The mania affected both adults and children, and basically those who were ailed by the plague would dance erratically until they either collapsed from exhaustion and injuries, died, or were healed. The victims' movements were described as spasmatic with many convulsions, and their bodies were left drenched in sweat. Their arms would thrash violently, and some noted that their eyes were vacant and expressionless. Blood would pool into their swollen feet and they would eventually bleed into their shoes. Oh god. I know. Often they would also cry for help. Like those who were dancing would just be like, Please help, please make it stop. I know. It's kind of sad. Um, if the victims did not succumb to a heart attack, they would collapse from extreme exhaustion, hunger, or thirst. So they literally would not stop until their body forced them to. Oh my gosh. Yeah, like the one woman that I'm gonna be talking about only stopped to sleep. And then as soon as she woke up, she would dance again. She was dancing again.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Were it was there like music or were they all just in the street not dancing? Yeah, so uh some the earlier ones, um, there was not music, but it did come to be like that musicians it was for a minute thought to help the people who were dancing to play music for them to dance to. Um but then later on it they were like, this is just encouraging the behavior, and music was actually banned for a minute.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

So encouraging the behavior that they couldn't control?

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Well, that's the theory part of it. We don't know what or why this happened. Truth. Um the earliest known incident was in the early seventh century, sometime in the 1020s, where 18 peasants began singing and dancing around a church, disturbing a Christmas Eve service. Which is I know. Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna be talking about which is a little bit. Um the next known incident occurred in 1237 when a large group of children were traveling between two towns and were jumping and dancing the entire way, similar to the Pied Piper of Hamlin, which is a legend that started around that time.

unknown 5:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Um, there's another incident in 1278 involving around 200 people dancing on a bridge over the river Meuse, resulting in its collapse. The survivors, yeah. The survivors were treated at a facility dedicated to Saint Vitus, and this is important to remember for later. Saint Vitus? Saint Vitus, yes. Um, so those were all like isolated cases and were not considered outbreaks. Okay. The real outbreak of the mania began between 1373 and 1374. On June 24th, in 1347, one of the biggest outbreaks began and quickly spread through Europe, Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands. Further incidents occurred in 1418 in Strasbourg, where people fasted for days. Um, and this was one of the possible theories for fasted for days. How are they still on their feet? Right. And that that's like so some people were like, well, fasting for that long is what made them, you know, go crazy and you know, they're exhausted, so they're just dancing.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

And you you wouldn't have the energy to get up, like you'd be fainting.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

Right. That theory does not make sense to me. Um, in another outbreak in 1428 in Schaffhausen, a monk danced to death, and in the same year, a group of women in Zurich were reportedly in a dancing frenzy. On July 14th, in 1518, a woman named Frau Troffee and her daughter Fraulein, Emma Gotz, went outside and began to dance uncontrollably in front of their home in Stralsburg. This is the first time I've actually pictured this happening. And I know that they suffered, so this is not funny, but it just like can you imagine just like going outside one day and your neighbors just like I don't know why you did that outside.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

I if I was struck with a dancing plague, I would not leave my house. I would just I would drop it low in here where no one can see me. That's not what happened though.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

They did it out in front of everybody.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah, I mean, yeah. If you're shaking it, might as well go out there trying to make some money. Yeah. Um that is not what they did. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

No, no, no, no. Um, so uh this happened, like I said, in front of their home in Straussburg, Alsace, um, or what is present-day France.

unknown 7:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

Um, as far as we know, she didn't have any music, she just started dancing. Some who witnessed her dancing started mimicking her. So, like her husband, for example, went out and was just like copying her, and then he was plagued. So that happened with several other people. Um so within 30 days, there were more, or within days, there were more than 30 people just dancing with no explainable reason. Frau Troffee danced for about a week, only stopping to sleep, and then continued dancing as soon as she woke up. Um by August of 1518, the dancing plague had affec afflicted 50 to 400 people. That's a very wide range.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

50 to 400.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

Yeah. Yeah. They weren't exactly sure how far it spread because people just started dancing and then yeah. Yeah. Um there are some historical documents stating that at its peak, this killed up to 15 people a day. There is some controversy on whether this even killed people at all.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

I was gonna say 15 a day, that 50 to 5 to 400. They'd all be dead within a week.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

If my math is right, yeah. I mean What's 15 divided by 400 divided by 15? I don't know. Well, no, but I have one. When a momentum favor. Okay, divided by 50.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

400 divided by fifteen. Is this four no, okay?

unknown 9:41

Motherfucker.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

400 divided by 15. 26.66. So in the 30 days, every single one of them would have been dead. Yes. Um, plus an extra four.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

Right. Um, so this particular outbreak eventually died down by September. There were cases after this one, but this was the last like known documented, presented as outbreak of the plague. Um, and that's kind of the history behind it. Those are the main cases that I were able to find. Like I said, there's isolated places all throughout. We had a dancing plague in the US, didn't we? Potentially. It didn't show up in my notes, but I didn't go very far. Um I was more interested in the theories. All right. Tell me your theories while I look it up. So these are not my theories, these are the theories of why they happened. Um because we still, even today, don't really know what caused this for sure. Um so the first theory is uh medical, medical theories. So physicians at the time and even now, um, when it's discussed, rejected any paranormal explanation. Um at the time, physicians believed it to be caused by something called hot blood.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

No, we've never had one. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Yeah. Hot blood? Yes, hot blood, which uh was um I think I have um was a medical theory that said that an excess of heat in the body would cause uncontrolled movement and behavior. I don't have uncontrolled movement, but my behavior is rather uncontrolled when I get hot.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

I was gonna say, when I get like overly hot, the last thing I want to do is move dance.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely don't want to dance, but I do get very cranky.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

No, I'm still on uh dark magic. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Wait, which is is it like a pill? Oh. I'm still on dark magic. Okay, so your theory is still dark magic. My theory is what you mean. Like, what are you taking? What dark pill are you taking? I want some. Um, in more recent medical hypotheses, it is thought that this came from mass food poisoning from ergo fungi, um, which commonly grows on grains such as rye that are used for making bread. Suddenly milling my own flour doesn't sound so great.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Um, I have also had food poisoning and I was definitely not dancing.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

I've also had food poisoning. However, air um ergotamine is a chemical compound that is derived from the fungus, ergo fungus. Um, and that happens to be what LSD was originally synthesized from. Oh. So if they were all high on LSD, it makes sense. That could be it. Yeah. Um lastly, there's a theory that this came from the bite of a tarantula. Hence one of the names being tarantism. Now, when you look it up, tarantism and the dancing plague are commonly confused with one another. Okay. They are separate things. Okay. Um, tarantism it did actually come from this tarantula that would bite people and it would cause like spastic movements, um, but not dancing. And that's like a very busy triantula if that's what happened. Yeah, well, it's probably more than one tarantula. It's probably not just one tarantula going around, like, oh, there he is. But if there is that many biting people, don't you think like you know, I feel like that well, and triangulas are big too.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Isn't it like you have like a secret gang of tarantulas going around? You wouldn't, you wouldn't know it.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Yeah, and the people that were actually bitten by tarantulas, like that was in a specific area. Like these tarantulas lived in yeah, a specific area. They were not traveling to the Netherlands, Germany, France.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

And even if they did again, you would be like this scary fucking thing bit me.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

Yeah. Right. Um, so I reject that theory compared to tarantulas. The food poisoning with LSD, I could I could get behind. Um, and I definitely don't think that it's from hot blood.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

No, I don't think so either. I I I think I could get behind the LSD a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

I think it's weird that they all tripped in the same way.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

So that's like the only thing that's like yeah, that's a popular like rejection of the theory.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Yeah, all of them tripping by dancing. Dancing, yeah. Yeah. I've never taken LSD, so me either. Maybe, maybe that's what they do. Maybe. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

I don't know. Maybe LSD makes you dance. I mean yeah, I don't know. I don't know anything about it. I don't want to know. But if you know, let us know.

unknown 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Because I don't judge. I'm just not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Let us know how often you guys uh dance when you're tripping.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Um the second set of theories are psychological theories. So this is the most commonly discussed theory and probably the most popularly accepted. Is it the twin one? No. Oh. I don't know what that means. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Tell me what you Yeah, yeah, and I'll tell you if that's what I'm thinking of. Because I can't remember the name of mine. I can only think of like the twins that have it.

SPEAKER_03 15:25

Okay. Um, so it essentially just mass hysteria is known to spread rapidly and widely, and uh because of that it could likely have been caused by mass hysteria, usually stress-induced, um, because at the time the region where people danced was riddled with starvation and disease, um, and inhabitants tended to be superstitious. So I figured uh they figure that if you know they're already starving and stressed about how they're going to stay alive and feed themselves and feed their families, it could have just altered their sense of reality and essentially made them go into psychotic break.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

I could see that one. That's the most believable so far.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Yeah. Um the third is religious theories. So, when the plague started, some uh believed that dancing was a curse sent by Saint Vitus and or Saint John to those who had sinned. Those who began dancing were made to wear red shoes, I don't know why, sprinkled with holy water and uh a drunk drawn cross on the top of the shoes, and then as they were dancing, they would be led to the temples of worship for Saint Vitus or Saint John, where they would dance until they passed out from exhaustion. Okay. And then they would wake up and they were cured. And some people, it is believed that some people started doing this in fear of like not in fear of sinning and not being accepted by Saint Vitus, which is the fourth theory, um, that it was all fake. And um the outbreaks were all staged and the appearance of strange behavior was due to its unfamiliarity. Um religious cults may have been acting out well-organized dances and in accordance with ancient Greek and Roman rituals. Despite being banned at the time, these rituals uh could be performed under the guise of uncontrollable dancing mania. Um Justice Hecker, a 19th century medical writer, described it as a kind of festival where a practice known as the kindling of the nod fire was carried out. This involved jumping through the fire and smoke in an attempt to ward off disease, which is Bartholomew notes how participants in this ritual would often continue to jump and leap long after the flames had gone. Okay, so those are all the theories. I think most likely it was just mass hysteria. Yeah. Um, which is terrifying to me. Um but I could believe the LSD. I could also believe the religious, um the religious theories, but only in like I would think that witches were doing these rituals to like remain healthy, and then people just like joined in without knowing what was going on. I think that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

I think um like a few were faking it and like it started as a fake thing, and then other people saw them doing it and joined in, and I think it became mass hysteria.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Like I think it started off as something else though. Yeah, and uh the other thing too is that there weren't any like other symptoms, right? Like they weren't they didn't have a fever, they didn't have yeah, they were literally just dancing. They did um treatments, there there wasn't really a treatment, but some that they attempted to treat were treated with exorcism. Um, you know, people just thought that the devil was inside people. Um yeah, yeah. And the um LSD fungus was also a um theory behind the Salem Wood trails.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

The LSD fungus twins. Oh, um that none of what you said was the twins. I I'll cover the twins though, because that just reminded me of it. Okay. Um I'm the people who know what I'm talking about know what I'm talking about. It's like the French word for um like two people going crazy together. I can't remember what it's called. It's French though. Um what was I saying? Oh, yeah, the LSD fungus. So do they turn the fungus into LSD or like the fungus itself has LSD properties where like if you inhale it, you become high. Correct.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

So that is how it would have happened if that was going to be caused. They later found out that hey, this makes you high, and then synthesized it further into LSD. So it already had the properties.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

All right, that's that's what I was thinking. Because I'm like, for it to get that many people that high, like yeah, it would have to have the pro like it wouldn't just be like, oh, like you can use this to make LSD. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Yeah, yeah. No, it was already there.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

I I believe that a little bit. I just don't think that they would all trip the same way.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yeah, I agree. I think it yeah, uh I to be honest with you, I think it could be a mix of all four theories. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Yeah, I think people's start going crazy and everyone's like, all right, we're dancing. Yeah. What else is there to do in the 1800s? We're not allowed to murder the woman anymore, so let's just dance with them instead.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

It that's funny that you say that because um there so there's like historical records that show that it was mostly women afflicted with this, but there's also historical records that say that's not true. Um, and there wasn't like a gender preference for this.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

It was just whoever I feel like the men are more likely to just stay inside and dance if they wouldn't go outside.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Yeah, there were probably a lot of secret dancers. Yeah.

unknown 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

So anyway, that's the dancing plague. And I thought it was interesting. Thank you. That was very interesting. Yes, I'm scared for what you're gonna talk about because you always talk about creepy things.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Yes. Um, my segment has a lot to do with LSD, which is funny.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

How do we do this? We do this so often where it's like, oh my god, my topic is to and again. We have no idea what the other's talking about until the day we show up.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

But this time we're not in the same time period. You're 1800s, I'm in uh 1950s. Right. Well, actually from 1943 to no from 1943 to 1953. Okay. Is what mine was. So that's kind of weird. 20 years. It wasn't 10 years. I don't know. It's in my notes somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Um today I will be talking about MK Ultra. Yes. Which is why I've been talking about a lot of LSD. Because they use a lot of LSD. Yeah. Lots of other drugs. Um, but a lot of the documents were destroyed. So we don't really know the full extent of the drug usage because that is what they mostly destroyed. Alright. And everything I am going to be talking about today is not a conspiracy. It is true. And it is in documents that you can find on the CIA website because they were forced to public to publicize it.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

But none of the important stuff, because it's burned.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Well, oh, we don't know. Oh.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Because it's burned. I guess. I guess you wouldn't know if it was important if you've never read it.

unknown 23:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

All right. You're like, all the important stuff was burned. I'm like, I don't know what was on there. I can't tell ya.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Well, if it was burned, it must have been important.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

True. True that. True that. Um, well, actually, all of this was I'll I'll get into it. All right. Um, so in 1953, the CIA director, Alan Dulles, signed off on Project MKUltra that stated purpose was the research and development of chemical, biological, and radiological materials capable of employment in clandestine operations to control human behavior. That is a direct quote from the documents on the declassified um general report from the CIA. And that is also available to read on CIA.gov, which is where I got most of my information.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

Is that really the website? CIA.gov.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

I think so. Let me start. That's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

CIA.gov. Is that where you can get like the Epstein files too?

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Um no, that's on I actually have oh no, the FBI Epstein files are open on that laptop right there.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

I hate that.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

I try to read a little bit of the Epstein Files every day in honor of the victims who have been screaming about this. Um so that's why it is open. I don't just have it open for fun on my laptop. No, it's not, but it is like currently open on my actual laptop over there. All right. Back to um other horrible things instead of the Epstein files. And I'm actually not gonna connect them today. I usually connect this to Israel or Epstein, and today I'm not. So lucky you guys.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

The one thing Epstein didn't touch.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

I don't think he was alive. Was he alive in the Yeah, he was alive.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

Just a baby.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

So most of the records were destroyed in 1973 by order of the CIA director Richard Helms. So it's been difficult to get a complete understanding of the more than 150 funded research subprojects sponsored by MKUltra and related CIA programs.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

But that's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

How did it all start? I may not be going to Epstein, but I am going to Nazis.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Shocking.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

During the early 1940s, Nazi scientists working in concentration camps of Auschwitz and Daschau? I'm so sorry, guys. During World War II conducted interrogation operations on human subjects. Some substances such as barbitruits, morphine derivatives, and hallucinogenins such as mesaline were used in experiments conducted on Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, and Jewish prisoners of war.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

Horrible.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

These experiments were aimed to develop a truth serum which could eliminate the will of the person examined. American historian Stephen Kenzer said that the CIA project was a continuation of these early Nazi experiments, as evidenced by MK Ultra's use of mesoline on unwitting subjects and replicating previous Nazi experiments conducted at Dash Roe. And the fact that numerous Nazi scientists would actually be employed by the United States government after World War II ended. To continue these, to continue their um research on Jews.

SPEAKER_03 27:06

You know, I know we're not the only country that's been evil for forever, but it just every time it's disappointing.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

They're like, Can we get some of that?

SPEAKER_03 27:26

What you doing? Can we get some of that? What you got over there?

SPEAKER_02 27:30

So American interest in drug-related interrogation experiments began in 1943 when the Office of Strategic Services began developing a truth drug that would produce uninhibited truthfulness in an interrogated person. In 1947, the United States Navy initiated product Project Chatter, an interrogation program which saw the first testing of LSD on human subjects. And fun fact, I didn't write this down, so this might be wrong because I'm just a dumb bitch that says things. But during my research, I read that the United States bought like all of the LSD supply, so other countries couldn't do this. Really? Yeah. So we wanted to be the only one torturing people with LSD.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

We wanted to make sure that nobody else could do that. Mel, we wanted to be the only ones experimenting so that we could find the research first. We had to get the Nazis, we had to get the LSD. I'm just saying. Yeah. It might not have been evil. We were trying to learn. Just remember you said that in a second.

unknown 28:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

1950, the CIA, under the direction of General Walter Bettel Smith, initiated a series of interrogation practices involving human subjects beginning with the launch of Project Bluebird, officially renamed Project Artichoke, on August. Why?

SPEAKER_03 29:05

I was like, I've heard of Project Bluebird. I don't know. Where do they come up with these?

SPEAKER_02 29:13

I think it's just they're discussing these evil things and they're like, oh, a bluebird just flew by. Project. Oh, your artichoke spinach dip looks so good. So when we stab them with LSD, do you think we should call a project artichoke?

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Artichoke.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

In the 1950s, probably.

unknown 29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Anyway, I'm sorry. So let's find out.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

I'm the worst at distracting. Spinach Artichoke.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

In the 1950s.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

Okay, look at that. It it must have been like a new thing. So they were like, you heard about that artichoke dip? Project Artichoke.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Yeah, because this was founded uh in the 1950s, and this happened at the 1950s.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Maybe they just kind of happened at the same time. Same same meeting. That's the This is not funny.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

I'm sorry guys.

SPEAKER_04 30:16

This is not.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

That what you said was funky. The topic is not. Alright, continue. You have to leave that in there. That was so funny.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Officially renamed Project Artichoke on August 20th, 1951, directed and overseen by Brididier General Paul F. Gaynor.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Gaynor.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

G-A-N. G-A-Y-N-O-R.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

Gaynor.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Gaynor? Yeah, I don't know. Or Nar. He's evil. I can make fun of his name.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Gaynor. The objective of Artichoke.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Do you read this when you write it? I don't say it out loud. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

The objective of Artichoke was to determine whether a person could be made to perform an act of attempted assassination involuntarily. It's not funny. They're trying to build assassinators who don't know that they're assassinating people, who have like no control over it.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yeah. That's crazy. So yeah, they're trying to like see if they give these people enough LSD if they can make them an assassinate people for the government without any choice. Morphine, mescaline, and LSD were all administered to unknowing CIA agents in an attempt to produce amnesia in the subjects. So they were hoping that they could get them to kill them and then forget that they killed them. That's truly evil. Again, I don't care what Gaynor's name is and if I mispronounced it.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Sounds very illegal, but I guess when did we ever care about that? No, this was illegal. Yeah. This was fully illegal. Which is crazy because CIA funded it.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Because we care about legality in this country. We've arrived at the point. And in addition, Project Artichoke aim did I say it right? In addition, Project Artichoke aimed to employ certain viruses, such as dengue fever, as potential incapacitating agents. Once Project MK Ultra started experiments. Experiments included administering LSD to mental patients, prisoners, drug addicts, and prostitutes. People who could not fight back, as one agency officer put it.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

In one case, they administered LSD to a mental patient in Kentucky for 174 days straight.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

That's so many days.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

That is so many days.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Imagine being on LSD for 174 days.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

I how long does LSD last in your system? I don't know. Like, did he have any peace during that 174 days? Did he ever come down or was it just Well, I'm sure at the e I don't know if they were like increasing the dosage, because if they just gave him the same dose, I'm sure by the end it didn't affect him as much.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

So LSD typically lasts between eight to twelve hours. Oh jeez. Though effects can occasionally stretch from six to fifteen hours, depending on the dosage or metabolism and your mental state.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

Oh, so if he was already mentally disturbed, then it potentially lasted longer.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

And I'm guessing they weren't feeding him very well.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

I'm yeah, I would assume.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

That's so sad. That is very sad, but unfortunately it just gets worse.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Great.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

They also administered LSD to CIA employees, military personnel, doctors, and other government agents, and members of the general public to study their reactions. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

I'm so sorry. Pause again. So were these people like still going to their day job?

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah. They just they would give it to them without them knowing. Yeah. Just to see how they would react.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

And then they just go do CIA shit.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

And military shit and doctor shit.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

CIA shit, doctor shit.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Oh my continue. The aim was to find drugs that would bring out deep confessions or wipe a subject's mind clean and program them as a robot agent. Military personnel would receive mind-altery mind-altering drugs, were also threatened with CARP if told if they told anybody about these experiments. Um, and that's like a military like trial? Yeah, kind of. LSD and other drugs were often administered without the subject's knowledge or informed consent. So again, they would just give it to these people to see what happened. How is it administered? Um, through different ways. So it would either be like injected without them telling them what the injection was, or they would put it in their food or in their drinks, or like sprayed. They tried a lot of different methods to see what worked best as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

I'm an adult.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

Was established in order to study the effects of LSD on non-consenting individuals. Prostitutes, prostitutes on the CIA payroll were instructed to lure clients about to what I just processed what you said.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Prostitutes on the CIA payroll. Yep. Okay, I'm sorry. I just this is blowing my mind.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Prostitutes on the CIA payroll were instructed to lure clients back to the safe houses where they would where they would just have like a bunch of different drugs, including LSD, and they were monitored behind a one-way glass. So these people would take a bunch of drugs, have sex with the prostitutes while being watched behind a one-way mirror. And then the prostitutes were instructed to use the poised coital questioning is what they called it.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

To investigate whether the victims could be convinced to involuntarily relate to involuntarily reveal secrets.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

So they think that drugs coupled with the climax ecstasy would get them to talk.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Yeah. They wanted to see if they could get like people to reveal secrets.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

What kind of secrets would these normal people have?

SPEAKER_02 37:19

These weren't normal people.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

Right, but you said that some of them were just like prostitutes, people from the public.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

The prostitutes were on the payroll, so they these were not like the prostitutes were not the ones being warred here. The people being lured here were like the um government officials, the military personnel, them.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Uh the victims were sometimes fed subliminal messages in attempts to induce them to involuntary actions, including criminal activities such as robbery, assault, and assassination. So, like after they had sex, after they were they took the drugs, the prostitutes would just like try feeding them these like secret-coded messages to see if they would rob people, assault people, kill people. Many of the CIA operatives involved in the experiments voluntarily indulged in the drugs and prostitutes for recreational purposes. So great. Yep. In other experiments where people were given LSD without their knowledge, they were interrogated under bright lights with doctors in the background taking notes. They were sub uh they told their subjects that they would extend their trips if they refused to reveal their secrets. The people subjected to these interrogations were CIA employees, U.S. military personnel, and agents suspected of working for the Soviet bloc during the Cold War. Long-term debilitation and several deaths resulted from this. Another technique investigated was the intravenous administration of a barbitruate in one arm and an amphetamine into the other. The barbitruates were released in the person first, and as soon as the person began to fall asleep, the amphetamines were released. Other experiments involved heroin, morphine, Taz uh Tempam. I don't know drugs, sorry, y'all. Mescaline psychobion scroll scopolamine alcohol and sodium penal athol. So a lot of drugs. A lot of drugs. A lot of drugs. A lot of different drugs with a lot of different things. Your 1955 MKUltra document details research objectives to identify drugs that could be used as cognitive enhancers, disease magmatics, euphorents without the letdown, and agents to diminish ambition, among other uses. The extent of testing towards these objectives is unclear given the deliberate destruction of most drug-related MK ultrafiles in the 1973s. In 1973. Wow. So basically, they they had orders for a bunch of different drugs. We just destroyed why we needed them.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

That's crazy. I they're important.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

I I think America likes to blame Mexicans and Mexico for the drug problem in the US, but I fully believe that MKUltra is the reason we have such a high drug problem in the US.

SPEAKER_03 40:35

I mean, yeah, the more you learn about it, there could be people still alive who like were subject to this.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

We're getting there.

SPEAKER_03 40:46

Okay, great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

There are. There definitely are. I was gonna say talk out about it.

SPEAKER_03 40:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

Yeah, this is only from the 50s. Like they're not even that old.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

No, yeah. Shoot, my grandma was born in like 1939.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

My mom was born in 69.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

Crazy. Declassified MKUltra documents indicate that they studied hypnosis in the early 1950s. Experimental goals included creating hypnotically induced anxieties, hypnotically increasing ability to learn and recall complex written matter, hypnotically increasing the ability to observe and recall complex arrangements of physical objects, and studying relationships of personality to the suspectability to hypnosis. They conducted experiments with drug-induced hypnosis and with intrograde and retrograde amnesia while under the influence of such drugs. The CIA exported experiments to Canada when they recruited Scottish psychiatrist Donald Ewan Cameron, creator of the psychic driving concept, which the CIA found interesting. Cameron had been hoping to correct schizophrenia by erasing existing memory and reprogramming the psyche. Cameron would experiment with various paralytic drugs as well as electroconvulsion therapy at 30 to 40 times the normal power. His driving experiments consisted of putting subject into drug-induced comas for weeks at a time, sometimes up to three months in one case, while playing tape loops of noise and simple repetitive statements. Did you ever watch Stranger Things? Uh no. Okay. I watched the first season, but then the main character came out to be that huge Zionist and was passing out Zionism as sexy sticker, so I Oh I don't know what that.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

I don't know about that, but Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

So I stopped watching it after that.

SPEAKER_03 42:46

Um so fuck him. Spoiler alert. The um in the last season, one of the characters is in a coma due to being infected by the monster. Um and one of the techniques to get her out of the upside down was to just have this song that she was obsessed with playing over and over and over again in the background. And that eventually led her to the exit of the upside down.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

So that's where they took this from.

unknown 43:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Although I think they were trying to do the opposite of yes in in this case. Yes. His experience were often carried out on patients who entered the institute for very extreme problems like anxiety disorders and postpartum depression.

unknown 43:40

My God.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Many of whom suffered permanent effects from his actions. His treatments resulted in victims' urinary incontinence, amnesia, forgetting how to talk, forgetting who their parents were, and thinking that their interrogators were their parents.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

Oh. That's so sad.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

But at least Cameron became known worldwide as the first chairman of the World Psychiat Psychiatric Association, as well as the president of both the American Psychiatric Association and the Canadian Psychiatric Association.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

Thank God.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Cameron was also a member of the Nuremberg Medical Tribune in 1946 to 1947. So at least he has that going for him. Great, great job, Cameron. We love you. In areas under American control in the early 1950s in Europe and East Asia, mostly Japan, West Germany, and the Philippines, the CIA created secret detention centers so that the US could avoid criminal prosecution. And in these detention centers, the CIA captured people suspected of being enemy agents and other people it deemed expandable to undergo various types of torture and human expec experimentation.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

We literally just became the Nazis. So 'cause the Nazis did like eugenics and experiments on the people to, you know, get one race. Well, when you hire the Nazis. I mean, yeah, it's not too far of a stretch that you turn into them, I guess, but.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

The prisoners were interrogated while being administered, psychoactive drugs, electroshocked, and subjected to extreme to the extremes of temperatures, sensory isolation, and the like to develop a better understanding of how to destroy and control human minds. In October of 1950, during the Korean War, North Korean prisoners of wars under U.S. custody were subjected to experiments under Project Bluebird. According to declassified documents released by the National Security Archive in 2024 to 2025, these experiments involved the use of various drugs and advanced interrogation techniques, including hypnosis, sleep deprivation, torture, etc. With the stated aim of controlling an individual to the point where he will do our bidding against his will and even against such fundamental laws as nature of nature as self-preservation. So that was our goal.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

I'm just so sad.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

In 1973, amid a government-wide panic caused by the Watergate scandal, the CIA director Richard Helms ordered all the MK Ultra files to be destroyed. Pursuant to this order, most CIA documents regarding the project were destroyed, making a full investigation of MKUltra impossible. But a cache of some 20,000 documents survived Helms Purge as they had been incorrectly stored in a financial records building, and they were discovered following a Freedom of Information Act request in 1977. These documents were fully investigated during the Senate's hearing of 1977, and on the Senate floor in 1977, Senator Ten Ted Kennedy said the deputy director of the CAA revealed that over 30 universities and institution institutions. What he was saying is that when they had to take the CIA to court, the deputy director of the CIA revealed that throughout these 30 universities and institutions that they were doing extensive testing on everybody unwittingly at all social levels, including high-class, low-class Native Americans, and foreign citizens. Several of these tests involved the administration of LSD to unwitting subjects and social situations. It was also discovered that they were using terminally ill cancer patients to test unknown chemicals without their knowledge or consent. Several known deaths have been associated with Project MKUltra, most notably that of Frank Olson. Olson was a United States Army biochemist and biological weapons researcher. He was also one of the MKUltra researchers, if that's what you want to call them. In 1953, a few days before his death, Frank Olson quit his position as acting chief of special operations divisions at Detrick in Maryland because a severe moral crisis began concerning him and he just like didn't want to do it anymore. His concerns were the concerns were the development of assassination materials used by the CIA, the CIA's use of biological warfare materials and covort and covert operations, experimentation with biological weapons in populated areas, collaboration with former Nazi scientists under Operation Paperclip. Again. Whatever was in their hand. Yeah. LSD mind control research and the use of psychoactive drugs during terminal interrogations under a program named Project Artichoke. In 1953, Olson was given LSD without his knowledge or consent as part of a CIA operation. And again, this was after he quit and died after falling from a 13th story window a week later. A CIA doctor assigned to monitor Olson claimed to have been asleep in another bed in a New York City hotel room when Olsen fell to his death. In 1953, Olsen's death was described as a suicide that he was that occurred during a severe psychotic episode.

SPEAKER_03 50:25

I mean, yeah. I guess technically. But he was drugged. It was suicide.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

I think the only other witness was a doctor you had watching him who was asleep in the other room.

SPEAKER_03 50:42

So are you saying that he didn't like actually fall from the building?

SPEAKER_02 50:46

I'm saying he fell from the building. I just don't think it was from his own accord accord. Oh, I think somebody pushed him.

SPEAKER_03 50:51

Oh I think he was murdered. See, I well, I still think that he was murdered, but I was thinking like he jumped, he did technically commit suicide, but because he was this happened to crazy after he was drugged. Oh, so he wasn't drugged anymore.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Yeah, so he was drugged, and then a week later is when he died falling from the 13th story.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

But I think they gave him the LSD without his like knowledge or consent.

SPEAKER_03 51:18

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

Just to kind of like say I think.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Oh yeah, he was definitely murdered then.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Yes, I think so too. Um, but yeah, that is MK Ultra.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

That's crazy. Also, I was thinking they did these experiments on cancer patients without their knowledge for me personally, if I had like a terminally ill cancer and you just asked me, I would be down. You know what I mean? To test unknown chemicals?

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

How are you?

SPEAKER_02 52:02

I don't think so. If if a guy came up to me and he was like, yo, we have these Nazis over here, they're making these chemicals. We're not really sure what they do, but we think it might completely control human beings.

SPEAKER_03 52:15

See, and that that's what I was going to say. I didn't think through the process because then I remembered that uh who I would be like providing this for. Yeah. And I wouldn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

If it was like if I was like dying of cancer and they're like, hey, we have this experimental drugs that could help other cancer patients, I would say yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

That's sort of what I meant along the line.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

But I feel like they just didn't know how to be like, hey, we we think this might control a human brain and let us convince them to kill people and not remember. Can we try this on you?

SPEAKER_03 52:47

Yeah, no, I would be like, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

So I think they were just like, you know what, you're dying anyways, you're already hooked up. Just put this in their machine.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Yeah. God. Who was president at the time?

SPEAKER_02 53:01

Uh, I think Truman. 1950s? He's dead in the ground. He's dead in the ground. Well, this happened over 20 years, though. I was a reference. Um, but it happened over 20 years, so I don't know who was president. Let's see who was president MK.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Not that he like directly has any influence over it because the CIA is different, but Dwight Eisenhower, John F.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

Kennedy, and Lyndon B. Johnson. And Richard Nixon, so four presidents. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

And you can't tell me none of them had any inkling.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Uh Dwight Eisenhower authorized the project in 1953. Okay. Then John F. Kennedy took it over when he became president, then Lyndon B. Johnson, and then Richard Nixon was the president when the program was officially halted, and then many records were destroyed during the Nixon's administration. Watergate.

unknown 54:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 54:07

Wow. Yep, yep, yep, yep. That's so not Truman. I was very wrong. There were four presidents, and I was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 54:14

Wrong. That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

Um, so a little bit of a conspiracy theory that comes from this is people think that Charles Manson was part of the MK Ultra. Because in California, in the same time that the Manson family was there, like his cult was living there, um, Lewis West was testing LSD in cults. Oh. And that's where he was with his cult. And he was heavily into LSD even without the project.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

So they think Wow. So a lot of people speculate that that was like Manson's thing. He would have volunteered for that. He probably would have you, he would have just went, but like he would have been like, hey, three drugs. Right. I don't think you inject LSD. I don't know. No, I think, isn't it? It's acid, right? So that's like a tablet. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, and then they think that's why he ended up going crazy and killing people because he went from being like this hippy dippy, just happy like family cult thing where everybody was just all about love and to murdering people.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

That's crazy. That's an insane theory. I want to read more about that.

SPEAKER_02 55:26

There's not too much because there's no like actual documents saying that he was one of them, but a lot of people suspect it.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

That's a good theory.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Yeah, they actually have like a documentary on Netflix diving more deep into that theory.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

Oh my gosh. I have to watch that.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Um I didn't watch it because I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

Yeah. So I there's a YouTuber that I I have watched her literally since she like started being on the internet. I just now, like, within the past week and a half, realized how famous she is now. I had no idea. But I her name is Kelsey Davies. Um and she's a clairvoyant, she talks to the dead, she sees people. Um, she is obsessed with haunted dolls. And uh that is how I started watching her because she just popped up on whatever I was on one day talking about her haunted doll, Lola. I think it was when TikTok first started. And she had like a following on TikTok, but she wasn't like that famous, right? And then I now she's like traveling to all these different places and investigating. And so her videos are, while I know that a lot of them are for like entertainment purposes, um, be you can tell that things are like the some of the things that they do are for entertainment. Yeah. But I 100% believe that she has these gifts. Anyway, um, one of the most recent videos that I watched was she got a box of these haunted dolls from someone that she works with, and one of them was a doll that Charles Manson had made while he was in prison. Because he used to make these dolls out of like underwear, socks, stuff like that. And this doll that she got was said to be made from a a pair of underwear from jail. And it is kind of like a voodoo doll, but this one that she got was um it didn't really look like a doll. It was kind of like a like a stick figure almost on a train. Like a it and it's all like rolled up in it looks like it could be underwear. And uh Charles Manson had uh came with a note that Charles Manson wrote, and it was basically like it was made to help people remember what they've forgotten. Which is crazy if he was part of MK Ultra. Because they tried to take away his memories. Yes, holy things. So yeah, and yeah, so that was just a little tidbit, but kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

That is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

So that's what we got for you this week. Yeah. Next week I do connect back to this a lot, unfortunately. Okay. Yeah, next week I uh and don't worry, guys. We are literally recording the next episode as soon as we finish this one, so it will be out next week. Yes, it will be. So we will be wearing the same exact clothes when you see us in the video. Mind your business.

unknown 58:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

We're not dirty, we're literally just gonna push end and then push start. Yeah. How are we gonna do that with my phone? I'm not gonna have enough memory for that. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out off camera, don't worry. Beef of the week? Do you have one?

unknown 58:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:51

Do you want to go first or do you want me to go first? Yeah, I'll go first. Okay. So my beef of this week is how people choose to talk to customer service people. Okay. My job is like it technically is customer service, but it's a l it's advanced customer service, right? Like it's specialty customer service. Um I am doing you a service, and I also have a license to do what I'm doing. So I know what I'm talking about. Um, and when I don't, I'm not afraid to say, let me get back to you. Yeah. None of that happened, but people really just think that they can call you, and I hate to say it, but it's very specifically men or like our parents' age women.

SPEAKER_02 59:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:38

Just like they call and they think they can talk to you any way that they want. And then they're so surprised when you talk back, like professionally, right? I'm I'm not like going out there calling people names or anything like that, but when I correct them, they're like, What? You know, they just freak out. Like, what do you want me to just sit here and take it? Yeah, it's not happening. And I've worked customer service my whole life. Like, I've worked fast food, I've worked retail, I've worked as a barista, and it just amazes me every time that there are people out there. They give you money, they're allowed to just do whatever the hell they want. Yeah, it's very annoying. Yeah, it's just insane to me. And I just even even if I was mad, I wouldn't have the audacity to speak to another human being that way.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

And I'm for both I'm not customer service, but as someone who's working, is if you come to me with an attitude, I'm not gonna go above. I'm still gonna fix your issue. Yeah, but someone who is nice, I will go above and beyond. I will tell the people who are able to fix it to like expedite it. Yes, I'll put the blame on like even if you did something wrong, which most of the time they do something wrong, they click something without reading. I'll be like, I did this, so fix it immediately. Give them a re like if you're nice to me, I will do care of you. Yeah, I will take care of you, I will get it done as fast as possible. If you come to me and you're yelling at me, all I'm doing is fixing your issue.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:04

Like you're not gonna get any other things from it. Nothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:08

Fix it and goodbye.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:09

Goodbye. So if you want good customer service and you want it to get fixed, don't be a dick because yeah, we ain't gonna do it. So we'll still do it, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

Trust me, you want us to do it the way we want to do it. Yes. Because if you're annoyed by an issue, trust us we're annoyed by it too.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:29

Yes. Yes, we want it fixed. We don't want issues either. Yeah. Because it makes our job harder.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

We we will get it fixed because we hate it too. We don't want to be dealing with it. We don't want to take phone calls.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:42

Nope.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

And she gets that way more than I do.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:46

Yeah. The other day, it was so busy yesterday after Memorial Day. I took so I also I take overflow calls as well. I took 30 phone calls just on my own. And there are two other people who do overflow phone calls, and we have a receptionist. Okay.

unknown 1:02:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:06

It was so busy. So I took a lot of phone calls. Luckily, most of the time, people are great. This is a yeah, in my experience, this is like rare, right? But every time it happens, it's always that one that you're just like, where do you get off talking to people like that? It's crazy. It's insane.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

All right. Men, as always.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:31

This is thematic.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

Um this new the new North Carolina bill that they just introduced saying that life begins at fertilization. What if you guys don't know what that means when the sperm meets the egg. That's when life starts. That's when life starts. And if you do anything to stop that from happening from the fertilization, the penalty could be death. Which means if this bill gets passed, a woman could die for using birth control.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:16

What century are we living in right now?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:21

Other states have had to have tried to pass this, and thankfully it has failed. But with the recent passing of recent bills that we've had lately, I feel like North Carolina knows that now's a good time to pass it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:39

Oh yeah. There's so many things that are trying to be pushed through right now because of the timing. They're like, we gotta get this either we have to get this in right now because elections are coming up, or because they have the right people in their cabinet to vote for it. So that's crazy. Also, when an egg is fertilized, it isn't there's nothing like all that has happened is that the egg could produce an embryo. It could. There's not even there's nothing alive at that point. Uh unless you want to get other than very technical and yeah, say our eggs and sperm are alive. Which don't give them that idea. Jesus. They're even like like extending it to IVF. It's just so infuriating. It's infuriating as a woman, but it's also just infuriating for people who are who want to get pregnant and who are trying to get pregnant and they have complications. And you know, they're I this doesn't go along with the bill, but yeah, you know, just you hear all the stories about the women who have to wait to get the medical medically necessary abortion because they have an ectopic pregnancy or the baby is literally like in like poisoning them in the wrong place. Like it's so sad. It's so sad. And then to extend shit like that to IVF, which is very expensive and people pay a lot of money to try and have a baby. It's it's evil. It's evil.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:29

So make sure you guys vote.

unknown 1:05:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

Anyway. Anyways.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

That's all for today's episode of Plot Twist and Punchlines. Follow our TikTok at plot twist underscore punchlines pod and on Insta at plot twist underscore punchlines underscore podcast. Steph, tell them where they can find you.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:47

You can find me on TikTok at Vessel V S S I L or Instagram at Steph Smiles XX. You saw that, right? Yeah.

unknown 1:05:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:58

What about you?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:59

You can find me on TikTok at Mel of a Time. It's like Hell of a Time, but with only one L and Mel instead of Hell.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

Oh, wait, that's you. If this made you laugh, you'll see nor just forget about the world for a minute. We're so glad you're here. Your support means the world to us. If you want to support us by more than just listening, you can follow our Patreon and become part of our inner circle. Choose from two different monthly donations, each with their own perks.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

And please don't forget to follow, rate, and review because it really helps us out. And share this with a friend who needs a laugh or a break too. And come back for more laughs, hot takes, and creepy conspiracy theories. Bye.