Episode 1: Catherine

In this episode, Catherine shares her experiences as a cisgender heterosexual woman. She talks about her journey to empowerment through the process of unlearning shame and embracing sexual pleasure. 

[Warning: brief mention of SA] 

This podcast is created by The Pleasure Society and sexologist Iris van Domselaar. Here's where else you can find us online. 

The Pleasure Society: Website / Instagram

Iris van Domselaar: Website

Music by Jord van Domselaar @jordvandomselaar

All episodes recorded at So PR in Amsterdam 

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:00

Hi and welcome to the Pleasure Narratives, a podcast by me, Iris van Domselaar, and the Pleasure Society. We're recording this from an amazing podcast studio here in Amsterdam. So thank you, So PR, for letting us use your space to create this together. In this podcast, we will talk about various themes surrounding sexual well-being, sexual pleasure, and intimacy. And we would talk about the sexual script a lot as well. And when we are talking about the sexual script, we are referring to a set of cultural expectations that basically tell us how to have sex and what is normal sex and what is desirable and what isn't. And these behaviors are seen as normal, but these norms do shape our desires as well and the things we think we like, and often without us realizing it. By talking about this, we build the awareness we need to question those norms and create space for sexuality and pleasure on our own terms. We hope you will find recognition, inspiration, and information while listening to the intimate conversations I will be having with our guests. And since people will be sharing their utmost personal experiences and we will be talking about sensitive subjects, we would like to ask you to listen with an open mind and respect for our guests and their stories. Thank you. [Pause] Welcome, everyone. So lovely that you're here.

Speaker 2 1:50

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 1:52

Of course.

Speaker 2 1:52

I'm really excited!

Speaker 2 1:52 Speaker 1 1:53

Me too.

Speaker 2 1:54

We've been talking about this for weeks.

Speaker 1 1:56

Yeah, I know. Finally, it's here.

Speaker 2 1:58

I know.

Speaker 1 1:59

Um, so that's amazing. And of course, I already know who you are, but maybe for our listeners, it's quite nice that you can introduce yourself a little bit. Yes. And maybe also a little about why this subject speaks to you.

Speaker 2 2:13

Um, well, a few weeks ago, of course, I saw something come by in one of our friend group chats about a podcast and uh female women, and I thought, okay, that's me. And uh, my name is Catherine, um Kathy or Kat. And um I identify as a cis hetero woman, I think. I don't know if I only uh am interested in men, uh, yet to figure out.

Speaker 1 2:41

I guess that's also something you have a lot of time for, right?

Speaker 2 2:44

Yes, you don't have to know already. Don't have to know already, and um really happy to be here. And when you said something about the sexual scripts, I actually wasn't sure what that was about, but I'm always very interested in exploring new things about sexuality, I think because it's been a big journey for me for a very long time. So I thought yes, let's go.

Speaker 1 3:08

Yeah, because I of course know a little bit about that journey, but can you maybe elaborate a bit?

Speaker 2 3:15

I think that it's always been a journey since I was very young. I was thinking about it on my way here on the bike, and actually when it was never talked about at home, sexuality, sex in general, and, um, a memory came up uh on my way here that I remember when I used to watch movies with my parents and there was a a sexual scene or something with a a man and a female, and it got a bit heated. My dad always used to say, Catherine, close your eyes, and I always thought that was funny, yeah. Um but actually it also brought a lot of shame.

Speaker 1 3:52

Yeah, I can imagine.

Speaker 2 3:53

And I never understood why. Um and as you get older uh you start to explore, you start to have feelings, whether that's um with yourself or towards another person, and then you start to have funny conversation with your friends, and then I think there came a stage where sex becomes a thing. But if you ask me like when or how or how were you introduced to it, I actually don't have a correct memory about it because I think there was a lot of shame about the subjects always from when I - what I can remember. Um, and I think uh we talked about this a few weeks ago when I had my biology class about sexuality, about the men and female and the bodies, uh sexual education, you had to be able to do it. Sexual education, yeah. It was awkward again, it was with a lot of shame. Like my teacher obviously wasn't educated well or properly, or didn't, you know, know how to approach it. So I remember she said, like, you just figure it out. Here's the box and figure it out by yourself.

Speaker 1 5:02

Really, she didn't explain anything?

Speaker 2 5:04

No, nothing, not at all.

Speaker 1 5:06

Oh wow, that takes exploration to a whole new level, I guess.

Speaker 2 5:08

So then, you know, you're in this this this group of children, 15 years old. I think we were 15, maybe, and it's all funny and goofy, but you feel everybody's ashamed, and you don't realize it until now, years later, that you're like, why is there so much shame around it? Um, you know, then having my first and only boyfriend. We uh, you know, for me there was so much shame around exploring. Yeah, I didn't allow him to explore me. And he was very gentle and careful with me. But I don't think I ever opened myself up to him. Yeah, how do I say that? Uh wanting to try things or actually understand when we talk about that script, like how does that come together?

Speaker 1 6:03

Yeah, yeah, but I mean I can imagine if it's if it's together with so much shame, uh, this has such such a negative connotation to sexual exploration as well.

Speaker 2 6:15

Exactly.

Speaker 1 6:16

Um, and would you where would you say these first messages came from? Were they like from inside your family or sexual education? Probably all those factors combined a bit.

Speaker 2 6:27

Combined, and I think a lot of what I experienced um was from movies. Yeah, definitely, from the television, not from any um adults uh close to me, and not to say that my parents were uh shied me away from it. I just don't think the conversation ever opened up at home, yeah, because I think my parents also didn't know how to handle it. No, maybe, and I know when I went on anti-conception, I think there was a little bit of a conversation like be careful, be safe, but not like why, how, just be like take care of yourself and don't get pregnant, I suppose.

Speaker 1 7:08

Yes, but I think that's something very important that you're touching upon here because speaking about sex in maybe a family environment or in school always has this negative consequence where we are talking about sex, like be safe, otherwise, if you're gonna have sex, maybe something bad will happen to you. We'll get unwanted pregnancies, STDs, um, you'll die from the STDs, whatever, they really scare you. So, of course, this in itself reinforces that shame. And it's definitely not about what sexual pleasure, how does your body work? No, and what are your boundaries?

Speaker 2 7:46

What do you say? Like sexual pleasure, it's never about that. It's always like sex and how do you do it? And yeah, not like sexual pleasure and exploration, and that sex is not only with a person. I suppose it's also, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, it's also with yourself, and of course, it is it's not only about touch, it's also about how you feel and what you think, like you said, and the environment. I think that was what you said in the introduction was so nice because it all is a combination of how you feel and where it brings you, and what what it gives you, and where it takes you. And I never was aware of that. So maybe still not, maybe wanting to become more aware of that.

Speaker 1 8:29

I mean, I think you are quite aware of everything compared to a lot of other people, but maybe you have this point or moment in your life where you thought, wait, these expectations don't really fit me, or this shameful approach to sex is - I mean, it's different for me because you are quite open talking about sex. Yes, you've done projects about sexual pleasure before. We know.

Speaker 2 8:55

Yes, that was amazing. That was um, do you want me to talk about that?

Speaker 1 8:59

Yeah, yeah. Maybe you can tell a bit about when there was a moment for you when you started thinking, like, okay, this is not it for me, this is not how I identify within these expectations of being shameful and not exploring my body.

Speaker 2 9:14

So a few years ago, I had um two very negative and scary uh yeah, how do you say that? Experience - experiences. Thank you. Um two very completely different experiences. One uh sexual intimidation, one where somebody - both times where somebody went past my own boundaries and I couldn't scream or shout or say anything because I thought this is just the way it goes, it's gonna happen, and yeah, this is what it's supposed to be like. Um or maybe not supposed to be like, but more like accepted, yeah, and blaming myself for it um until uh somebody uh said or asked me a question, like, did this happen to you and how did you feel in that moment?

Speaker 1 10:09

Yeah.

Speaker 2 10:09

And I said, like I was frozen, I couldn't move, like a shock, like literally I couldn't move or say. And up until that moment, um that person said, Uh, do you realize that you have been sexually assaulted or uh violated? And I said, No, I actually never knew that. I thought it was always me. And I think that changed my perspective that somebody actually opened that up for me and said, like, it wasn't you and it wasn't your fault. And I had so much shame around it because each time I would be intimate with somebody, even if it was a kiss, somebody would touch me, I would freeze because I was like, uh, I actually don't know what to do, I don't know what to say, I don't know how to feel. I didn't feel I felt a lot of shame and pain from inside. Um, and then I went into therapy, um, and that helped a lot. Yeah. But also on my own journey, and I was asked to um work together with a uh company for photo shoots uh to romanticize - Well, not romanticize, maybe that's not the right word, but to show that female uh pleasure is something amazing and something beautiful. Um, so I um had a photo shoot in a hotel bed with a vibrator and came to a climax on the picture.

Speaker 1 11:40

Yeah, I loved it.

Speaker 2 11:42

And I don't know, that was so empowering, it was amazing, it was so much fun, and it brought so much emotion, so many emotions. I didn't know that, like just after that, it was like wow, and these people looking at you like wow, what just happened? And you're like, Yeah, I don't know. I've never experienced something like that in my life. Such a beautiful experience. I know, and it was amazing, and yeah, maybe some people think it's weird, but it was so intimate, yet I had never felt so comfortable with my body. And I didn't yeah, I didn't really Yeah, it's really empowering, I think. Yeah, and I it really didn't matter that there were people there or not. It was yeah, you - I kind of zoned into my own pleasure, I would say.

Speaker 1 12:27

Yeah, that's beautifully said.

Speaker 2 12:29

Yeah, and and from that moment onwards, I just think that it - like you say, like it's always - why is it not about the pleasure and the fun and the exploration? And I think that kind of opened up a new door. Not to say that that now I'm uh you know, all okay with everything, but more that I'm willing to explore more for myself, other than pleasing somebody else, or yeah, yeah, that I suppose such a good and beautiful story, and just coming back to the experience you shared, thank you for sharing them.

Speaker 1 13:06

And that must have been so difficult as well because you didn't have any role models who told you what boundaries were or what is normal and okay and what isn't, and it must have been so complicated to navigate for you. And I mean, thank God there's therapy, but um, it's so sad that it had to come to a point of such an experience for you to now regain a bit of agency because of that therapy uh trajectory and now that project as well. Um, but especially about all the shame which is um together, the shame which- which comes with sexual exploration. Um, I think a lot of people do experience that as well, and also because what you described as well, like now the journey is starting to explore your own sexual self and what is pleasure for you. Yes. Um, so that is really nice. And you probably think your attitude towards sexual pleasure has changed since that project as well.

Speaker 2 14:21

I think so, definitely. I still have to admit that I'm not too sure where I am in the journey. Um, I think over the years I've explored a lot, but still pretty much in a frame where I feel that I'm pleasing somebody else instead of myself, not with every sexual experience or also with myself. Like I often feel different with my friends, like everybody says, Don't you have a satisfier, don't you watch porn? And then I'm like, no?

Speaker 1 14:55

Yeah, I think that's also a bit of a script as well, maybe because we are together in this left-sided bubble where sexual exploration is now more common, but I hear you say before that you still have this idea of okay, I have to please someone else.

Speaker 2 15:15

Yes, 100%. And I think sometimes I step away from that, and then you have an experience with somebody or you meet a person who can completely take you out of that. Yeah. Uh I was thinking of another story on my way here. There was a guy I was dating, and um I remember I said to him, like, I don't - we had the conversation and we - I think we were talking about sex or I don't know, I can't really remember what the conversation was, but then I said, like, yeah, I I don't know if I can give you what you want from me because but he said, like, why is it about you giving something to me? Like isn't it something we do together? And I said, like, yeah, but I haven't had sex in two years. Like, how can you know, how can you want to have sex with me? And he's like, but it's not about that. He's like, I like you, and I want to share this with you, I want to explore this with you. I'm not in for something, to get something from you. He said, and he really like took my hand, and I remember that I was so nervous, and I was like, Oh, I don't - like the first time you do something, like how you were nervous today.

Speaker 1 16:24

It is really scary, of course. It's out of your comfort zone.

Speaker 2 16:27

Yeah, and I think he really like opened up again like a different world for me, like it's not about uh you know, sex that uh that it's only about um how do you say that penetration? It's completely not, yeah, and it was like how he uh went into it with me, very careful and making it fun and exciting. And yeah, I felt like this this like this this like special, and let's say not yeah, not to say that you had to feel special, but like somebody who really wanted to take care of you, and that was also -

Speaker 1 17:06

And thinking about the pleasure in itself, probably away from all these like pressure you put upon yourself and also from the societal expectations as well, because I've heard you said a few things now. So, okay, focus on penetration. I think within the heteronormative script, this is something we see coming back and back.

Speaker 2 17:25

Yes.

Speaker 1 17:25

But what is the sexual script like for you, which you feel has the most impact on you or has had?

Speaker 2 17:33

I think uh definitely one that I would like to change is that it always leads up to penetration and there's no like proper um how do you say that foreplay or uh it always is like a moment, yeah, a man and a female come together and it happens. And I think for a long time I thought that that is just what it was. Like you meet somebody and you sleep together, boom, that's it.

Speaker 1 18:02

Yeah, I thought the same thing for a very long time.

Speaker 2 18:04

And I think now over the years and experience it and also having more open conversations with friends, especially with you and - or our other friends, definitely our friend group, is very open in that, and a whole new world opened up for me because I never thought, like, whoa, there are so many different perspectives, and that it's not only about a script with a different person, it's also how you feel, and uh what you said a few weeks ago, it's about the mindfulness and actually kind of feeling maybe closing your eyes and going a little bit deeper into your body and seeing what you feel, and um it's really hard. Like, what what is the script? What is the script? Maybe there there shouldn't be a script.

Speaker 1 18:49

I think there shouldn't be one, but I guess just because our society is the way it is, and we are living in the West where there's a patriarchy, and this just gives us these gender role expectations, as I said before, and um the penetration itself is I think a consequence of sex being about reproduction. Yeah, and I mean, female pleasure was never a big part of reproduction, you don't need to have an orgasm as a woman to reproduce, exactly, and only in the last, I think, yeah, let's say 30, maybe until 50 years, we've started to explore what sexual pleasure for women is, what the clitoral complex is.

Speaker 2 19:34

Yeah, I remember you showed me -

Speaker 1 19:36

They are right here.

Speaker 2 19:36

I love that, it was such a nice kit. I love it.

Speaker 1 19:39

Yeah, but it gives such a good visualization of the big organ which is present, and the clitoral complex in itself is the best example of why pleasure is not about reproduction, because the clitoral complex only his - its only function, I would never say his, because her only function is pleasure, yes, it doesn't do anything else. So if we talk about yeah, you need sex for reproduction because that's just the evolutionary way, that's not the case anymore. Maybe it was that way a long time, but now we have a clitoral complex. Maybe it was there all the time. I'm not an evolutionary biologist, so I will never say I know this. But this created this sense of okay, let's have sexual reproduction that means penetration, and it didn't have a lot to do with female pleasure, so it's not weird that we don't know what to do when we were younger. And uh, the only sad thing is that there's not more what we can learn from. Um, there's not a lot of role models for men how to behave towards women in a nice way. It's quite hard now with social media as well. And for women exploring your own body, exploring your own pleasure, it's almost something you have to do yourself, as you said.

Speaker 2 21:01

And again, it is - I feel it comes with so much shame again.

Speaker 1 21:06

Yeah, it does.

Speaker 2 21:06

But then when you showed me this the other week, I was like - I went home and I told my sister, I was like, "Did you know that this happens when this-?" And she was like, Wow, I never knew. Let's look it up! We looked it up, and it like - it's insane, and it's actually something so like I would want to say empowering. I love that word, empowering,

Speaker 1 21:26

Yeah, me too, it's beautiful.

Speaker 2 21:29

Such a nice word. Um, and I think there is so much more to explore.

Speaker 1 21:33

If I were to ask you now, what's - what does sexual pleasure mean to you?

Speaker 2 21:39

Again, I thought about this question, and I think I wrote it down in my phone, and I said, I wrote down like right now, if I would to have to answer that question, I actually wouldn't know. Because of course I can say like having a fun evening with somebody or feeling, you know, uh exploring with somebody and - But if I would to have to give you one answer, I would say it is still a journey, it's still a journey for me. I'm still really trying to figure out what is my pleasure, what are my limits, what is something that I'm like. I don't think I've really opened up to that yet. Because -

Speaker 1 22:19

You have so much time, you don't have to know already.

Speaker 2 22:22

No, and I think that yeah, that is also an answer. Like, I actually really don't know because for the first time I think I'm actually really thinking about that. Yeah. So of course it's nice to have a fun evening or meet somebody who you fall in love with and explore that with somebody else. But when it comes to myself, I wouldn't - I wouldn't even know, and I'm really open about that. Like honestly, I wouldn't know.

Speaker 1 22:46

But maybe that's also an answer in itself, to take some time and and check in with yourself, like what's desire for me, what feels pleasurable to me.

Speaker 2 22:56

Yes.

Speaker 1 22:57

And if you know, or if you do have a more clear image of what that means to you, that's also probably easier for you to share with someone else.

Speaker 2 23:07

I think so, definitely. And of course, when I can - I do say what I like, and - but to be honest, if somebody asks me, like, what do you want? What do you like? I - I never can really give them an answer, to be honest. I often would say, What do you like? I like what you like. And then I think, yeah, but I don't - I don't know if I like what you like. So yeah, it's so funny to say it out loud because then I think, yeah, I actually can't answer that question. I actually have no idea.

Speaker 1 23:34

You don't have to have all the answers.

Speaker 2 23:36

I know, and that's the fun as well -

Speaker 1 23:36

And maybt it is nice for you. I mean, this as well probably it creates a certain place of more agency over your own desire, and this is probably a step towards another direction where you can start exploring your own body more and your own pleasure aside from what someone else might want.

Speaker 2 23:56

Exactly. And like I - like you said in the introduction, you said something about sexual diversity or uh what I just said to you, sexual holisticism. I love that. That is so -because it it gives it - with anything with holistic in it, I feel there's so much peace and rest. I love that word.

Speaker 1 24:19

I agree.

Speaker 2 24:20

And I feel like it is something - it should give you peace and rest and pleasure and fun instead of shame and pressure, pressure, or like stress, all those things. Yeah, it - it's allowed to be there.

Speaker 1 24:36

It is, and I think it must be so nice for you to - or can be so nice for you to maybe create this experience where you create a context which is nice, maybe light some candles, lie down on your bed, just start exploring, and maybe you'll find out there are different areas of your body who you like to touch, or maybe don't, or maybe just lay there and be with yourself. I think the empowerment and the agency you regained after all the things you went through are so powerful in itself already, and probably a good starting point for everything that's to come.

Speaker 2 25:20

I think so too.

Speaker 1 25:21

Because I think there is a lot more to come and a lot more to discover for you-

Speaker 2 25:25

And it's exciting, and I want to see it as something exciting, something that excites me to uh to go on this journey - to ride the wave.

Speaker 1 25:36

There's a lot more waves to be ridden by your wave. Yeah, I know it's sad - it's been such nice, it's been it's been so nice chatting to you.

Speaker 2 25:44

And it's so nice if you can - like sitting with a friend, but also having the space and um that it feels like I feel like I could say anything.

Speaker 1 25:58

That's so nice. Oh, thank you. That's such a big compliment.

Speaker 2 26:01

So I want to thank you for that, and the pleasure society, of course, to create such an open space and an environment where I feel no judgment, and I think that's so important when you touch on a subject like this.

Speaker 1 26:19

Definitely, let's leave all the shame behind, leave the limiting sexual script behind, and just explore yourself. I think we have these pleasure cards from the Pleasure Society as well for you. They are created to explore and open intimate conversations. Um, and I would like to thank you so much for all your openness and sharing your experiences because I think a lot of people will recognize certain parts of it in their own lives. I mean, I did, I felt a lot of recognition with the things you told me, um, and knowing that you're not alone, I think that exactly is a huge thing for me.

Speaker 2 26:57

I would want to share my story or my experiences to know to tell people like you're not alone, and feel free to reach out if you want to have a conversation about it, if you want to talk about it, like exactly there's always space to feel - feel heard.

Speaker 1 27:15

Feel heard. Yeah, I agree, and um also maybe uh a bit of useful information. I am also gonna record a bonus episode where I will be doing a mindfulness sensation-focused exercise. Love it. So, for everyone else who is listening, and for you, maybe this is quite nice to explore bodily sensations and um just focus on the touching itself.

Speaker 2 27:41

Go listen to that.

Speaker 1 27:42

Go listen. Um, but for now, thank you so much for your courage for being here. Hopefully, this inspires other people to explore their own journey and their own pleasure.

Speaker 2 27:53

Thank you so much, hun. It was amazing. Loved it.

Speaker 1 27:55

Yeah, I thought the same, loved it too. Thank you for tuning in and listening to the pleasure narratives.