Episode 3: Tom

Tom, a bisexual man, shares his journey of coming to terms with his sexuality after moving to a big city and exploring different experiences, including how he has learned to communicate his own needs as well as those of his partner(s). 

This podcast is created by The Pleasure Society and sexologist Iris van Domselaar. Here's where else you can find us online. 

The Pleasure Society: Website / Instagram

Iris van Domselaar: Website

Music by Jord van Domselaar @jordvandomselaar

All episodes recorded at So PR in Amsterdam 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, and welcome to the Pleasure Narratives, a podcast by me, Iris van Domslaar, and the Pleasure Society. We're recording this from an amazing podcast studio here in Amsterdam. So thank you, Sopier, for letting us use your space to create this together. In this podcast, we will talk about various themes surrounding sexual well-being, sexual pleasure, and intimacy. And we would talk about the sexual script a lot as well. And when we are talking about the sexual script, we are referring to a set of cultural expectations that basically tell us how to have sex and what is normal sex and what is desirable and what isn't. And these behaviors are seen as normal, but these norms do shape our desires as well and the things we think we like, and often without us realizing it. By talking about this, we build the awareness we need to question those norms and create space for sexuality and pleasure on our own terms. We hope you will find recognition, inspiration, and information while listening to the intimate conversations I will be having with our guests. And since people will be sharing their utmost personal experiences and we will be talking about sensitive subjects, we would like to ask you to listen with an open mind and respect for our guests and their stories. Thank you. Ready?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

I'm ready, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Okay, too. Hi everyone, and welcome to yet another episode of The Pleasure Narratives. I am here today with another guest where we will be talking about the sexual script again. Um, his name is Tom. Hi. Hi, Tom. So nice that you are here. Um, we spoke a little bit beforehand, of course, about who you are. Um, but I think for the listeners, it's quite nice if you can introduce yourself a little bit and um maybe tell them also how you see your sexuality today.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah, sure. So my name is Tom, uh, and I identify myself as bisexual. Um, and other than that, I'm a cis man, so that's how I would identify myself now today.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah, good to know. And um what did you think was so interesting about this subject? Why did you uh felt the interest to come on this onto this podcast? Because I love having you here, of course, but I am quite curious.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Uh well, so when I got the question, like, do you want to talk about like the sexual script and the narrative that's going on? I was like, uh, I'm always glad to talk about like sex and sexuality because like I think it's a very good topic to speak about, to talk about, yeah, especially also since I didn't really um do that like when I was younger, so um uh I think it's very important as well. Um I agree, yeah. So no, I think um uh yeah, I'd like to share my story as well, and um because uh for me it was like a long journey, yeah. Um, and now I'm feel I'm feeling comfortable to speak about it, and uh, so that's why I think like I I wanna do this and take this opportunity to talk to you about it.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah, good to hear and very brave as well. Um, and you already said something about I didn't know a lot about it, we didn't speak a lot about it. Can you tell me a little bit more about where you absorbed some ideas of what it meant to be a man in a sexual relationship?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Of course, yes. So, for context, I grew up in like a very small village in the south of the Netherlands. And for me, like especially because I'm bisexual, like uh growing up there, I was surrounded by like all men, like very conservative, like very conservative ideas also about like sexuality and like how it's meant to be, like it's a very traditional uh way, like you have to be with like a man and a woman, and then uh you just uh grow up, marry, maybe have children, uh all that kind of things. Yeah, uh, and I think for me, also because I'm bisexual, for me, I could for for like a part of me, uh I could fit in there pretty well because um I'm attracted to women as well. Yeah, but the other part of me uh I feel like it has developed like pretty late as well. Like it was very uh not like unnecessary, yeah, it was a little bit unnecessary for me to really um uh uh develop that and also it was like very uh unsafe to uh talk about like ah maybe I'm also into guys or into boys, and yeah, uh I want to experiment with that. It was not a very safe environment to do that only when I was I was growing up. I moved to the city, I went to uh university where uh now in general, like there was more people and you had different stories, and then you're like maybe this is something that's I mean yeah, you you can feel that, and yeah. Um yeah, so I think for me that's uh how my journey was.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Makes sense. And did uh the interest in maybe exploring your sexuality also had a part in why you moved to the city, or that's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Uh maybe in the end, yes. Like in the beginning, of course, it was just for study, yeah. For study, yeah. Uh but now like I recently moved to Rotterdam as well. Uh and I also feel like I moved to Rotterdam, or I w I want to live in a bigger city because it's easier to really be myself in an environment like that. Yeah, um, it doesn't feel as as unsafe as when everybody knows you, and you have to like you have the feeling like that you're always different, or you have to like always explain to people like uh that's of or you hear like it's not the way it's supposed to be, or yeah, um a lot of social control in an environment which already felt quite unsafe for you to be yourself in.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yeah, I can imagine that must be quite hard.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Uh yeah, it was a little bit hard. Or I mean um, but also because I mean for me, my uh uh I was lucky that I was also like attracted to women, so I could like pretty easily manage to like I I just only date with women, or um I had a girlfriend, yeah. Uh so that fit in really well. Um and at the same time, like uh uh um going out of that place and uh moving to uh big city also was like very fun because I could like explore these new things, which is also like a really fun and exciting thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

So um I'm really curious about that part. You already know. Yeah, I guess you could can you tell me a little bit like how did that journey start? I can imagine you're moving to a new city, and you're like, okay, I've been myself partly, and now it's time for me to explore. Where did you start?

SPEAKER_00 7:40

I mean, so my first encounters with like the the the same gender, like with men was already before I moved, but it was like very secretive. Yeah, I remember like doing stuff secretly with friends, or like it was, but it was very behind like closed doors. Yeah, um, so I knew already a little bit, but like um when I moved out and I was like okay, maybe I can explore more. Like in the beginning, it was mainly like just going out and just make out with uh all kinds of people, which is really nice and really exciting, yeah. Um and also like exploring that part and like a little bit more open. Uh but then I also found out like it for me, it's like it's also like a uh different to date with men or with women, yeah. Because I I find it a little bit like um I'm not sure about the word, but like sometimes like overwhelming to date with men somehow. Yeah, uh, and I think it's also because like gay men maybe have more focus on like the sexual part of dynamics and dating. Yeah, uh, and I mean I'm I can also be horny and I'm really a fan of sex, but like it's just I have to know someone before I want to like be intimate. Yeah, so for me that is also a little bit overwhelming, and it still is, I think. Like I still think like I really wanna date some cute guys, but like it's also like going on the apps, and it's like the the first message I'm already like oh, I don't know where this is going, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah, I've heard from my gay friends that like apps like Grindr can be quite overwhelming. Um so would you say then there's a bit of a different script for when you are dating women or uh same gender dating? Or how do you experience that?

SPEAKER_00 9:37

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Maybe like expectations you feel, or how you behave as a man in both relationships, I can imagine that is different.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah, for me, there's like definitely a different situation of how I behave. Um and I also feel like um yeah, the difference is mainly like um where women like uh are a little bit more reserved, like they want to like talk to you first, like see what kind of person I have. Men are like in that terms less reserved, but also they never like want to get to know you. Oh no, no, not never, like I'm not using a big word. Um in your experience, in my experience, it's it's like way more up there, and then yeah, I'm like I I cannot really connect to someone and then I'm like yeah, scared. Yeah, um so in terms of script, yeah. Maybe that's something that's also like in the the script of being a man and being a woman, where as a man you are scripted or you grow up with the idea of like I have to like hunt, yeah, you know, and where as a woman you are like more um I feel like you most of the time it's it's more like you have to protect yourself. So maybe that's something where that's difference, yeah, comes from it. This is something I just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

I think what you are describing are quite common gender roles, which are like laid upon being a man or being a woman, like in this usually heteronormative script as well, like the men are active and actively looking for a partner, and women are more uh passive. Yeah, um, I think that's what you're describing a little bit, but it's interesting that you are describing those things within same-sex as well, that men maybe are then both quite like actively looking for someone, something, and you aren't experiencing that.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

I yeah, I feel like I'm I can also be like actively looking, but like it's not like the first thing I would like go for, you know. That's the that's I think the difference.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

It's I think it's also just more about being the person who you are, and it's different for everyone, of course. Yeah, um pleasure-wise. How do you see how do you think the exploration of your pleasure changed when you were exploring your sexuality as well? Like, how was it different for you being with uh different partners?

SPEAKER_00 12:15

I feel like pleasure-wise it's always uh different depending on the partner, whether it's like girls or boys, like whatever, like men, women. Um I feel like you have to like discover like who how someone works uh and how someone body what what someone likes all the time. And I think uh for me like that's something you discover when you grow older, yeah. While like when you just grow up, like the the story is very much like you have to go for penetration and like that. And uh at school you just uh you've I've just been teached like how to put on a condom and how like the how do you call it like the reproduction system works, like that kind of things, and you have to make sure you don't get like any STDs, like that kind of things. It's quite a negative uh message as well. It's quite negative, and uh also like being surrounded by like uh other uh other men, it's always like very hard and like very yeah, like that. Um while in uh whether it's with men or with women, it's like it's never like that. It's it's just like you have to like check in what someone like likes or like what someone doesn't like, yeah. And being with like uh different partners, I feel like it's always very different, like and also for me it's like very different depending on my mood or like my day, or it can also uh depend on the person I'm with, what like what I like or what I like not. Um yeah, I don't know, like uh also like with uh men it can also really change between like uh being top or bottom, and sometimes I'm more into one and sometimes more in the other, and also with uh women I'm also switching a lot.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

So but I think that's the beautiful part about sexuality and pleasure, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:21

I mean it's not like very it's it's not that rigid thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

No, no, and I think what you are describing, this uh sex has to be hard, it has to be penetration, and also the negative messages you get in school. This is so common that I think a lot of people have these ideas because they see it in the media, they get taught in school it's the the the tough stories you tell each other. Like I think, especially in masculine environments. Um, and I think it's so beautiful that you describe that it depends on my mood, it depends who I'm with, and I think it is really important to discover someone and their body and what works for them as well. And uh, I also recorded an introduction for this podcast where I describe this term, which is sexual holisticism, and it sounds quite complicated, but it's actually just looking at sex in a very positive and holistic way. Like the context has to be right. Uh, of course, you can enjoy bodily sensations, but your emotions, your thoughts, uh everything really coming together is what creates pleasure, I think. And it's different in each situation and with everyone who you are with, even by yourself.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

I think definitely, yeah. It's it's also like it's not that you're only there with like your genitals, you're like exactly your head as well. Like, yeah, you you take everything and like everything you have experienced that day or that moment with you, and also like uh I mean that's also why why it changes changes changes in relationships, I think. Like, because in the first start of relationship, often it's like very like intense and you're in love, and like you're you're like consumed by like these emotions, and then everything's fire, and then hormones, yeah, and then when you're like uh familiar with someone, you know someone's body, like yeah, you get to the stage where it's like less exciting, maybe, but also very it can be very comfortable and very loving as well. Exactly. Um but yeah, I think if you take the script in account, like that that comfortable and loving is not very sexy or like very hot. Well, why not?

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Because it's it's so it's so nice to be like intimate with someone, and to really get to know someone's body and like what works for you. And I've read in a uh in a book as well, like the being in love stage is so beautiful, but also a bit of a curse for the rest of your relationship because this intensity and these hormones will make you feel aroused each time you see each other, you want to jump each other. Uh, while it can be also so meaningful and beautiful to explore each other's body and have this other or like transforming sexual relationship, so that's really nice that you said that. And what does being your true sexual self mean to you now? Because you've had such a big journey.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Oh, that's a good question. I feel like it's having the freedom to to go um after like my needs or my things that I want in the moment, like my own needs, like and not uh someone else's needs, or like I mean how someone else also takes in their needs with like how they match, and feeling the freedom to express myself um to communicate during sex, also that's I think that's very important for me as well. Yeah, just to check in if I'm nice, but like if the other person is nice as well. I think that's um uh yeah, something maybe in a sexual script, it's also not really talked about.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Like, no, no, I was gonna say, like, it's such a big thing to be able to feel what your desires are, what you feel is pleasurable for you, and to communicate that as well. Because I think the script also goes with a lot of shame and stigmatization, and like, oh, are I have these feelings, are these even normal for me to have?

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Which makes it really hard sometimes to speak up or like exactly express yourself.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Because what if the other person is like, Well, I don't know, um, who what is this person saying?

SPEAKER_00 18:41

And in the end, like, no one really knows.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

No one really knows, and that's the whole thing why I also feel like uh together with the pleasure society, of course, um, thought it was so important to speak up about each and everyone's experience because they are also different, but then in the same sentence, universally uh influenced by this negative script who which lays upon these expectations of how we should be, how we should behave, and also suppress the things we do feel and we do want to explore. So that's so beautiful that you said that. In the relationships you've had right now, um, how is it going there in in Rotterdam? Are you dating?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Uh good question. I'm in a relationship actually with a girl. Okay, so I have a girlfriend. Um, but we're open poly. I don't know, I don't know about the exact label, but we're you don't have to label it, we're also seeing other people, yeah. Um, which for me is also like part of like the freedom. Um because then I can like I mean I think one partner is not like also always able to fulfill all your needs and also feel like dating with other people is very fun to do. Yeah. Um so now I'm also sometimes seeing other people, sometimes like longer, sometimes shorter. Um but that's really fun, also in Rotterdam, but also in Amsterdam. I don't I I can travel from the city. You're not bowed to the city. Um, so yeah, that's my relationship now. Um and I'm really curious to discover like what that brings. Um I think it's always nice to meet new people, whether it's like friendly or sexual, or yeah. I mean, that's something you explore together, I feel like.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Um you're still on a big exploration journey.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, that's so lovely.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Well, I think you've said so many, so many beautiful things, and I think a lot of people will definitely recognize themselves in uh many aspects of your story, and it's so nice to hear that you've come such a long way within like being happy with who you are and exploring, and I think this is also something which never stops.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Um don't I don't hope so.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

No, me neither. I think that's a better way to put it, and also because a lot of people will probably start exploring quite late uh later on in their lives because uh you gain a bit more self-confidence, and then you go to another city, for example, and there are more opportunities to explore and um feel a bit more confident in your identity, maybe. Um, so I hope people will listen to your story and feel inspired to also take that courage and explore their sexuality and what pleasure really means to them. So, thank you so much for sharing your story and all your openness. It was really nice hosting you. Thank you for tuning in and listening to the pleasure narratives.