Episode 8: Hull KR special with Chris and Jack Charles

Legendary former Hull KR captain Chris Charles and his son Jack, a promising young halfback, join host Gemma Oaten to discuss how they cope with the challenges of rugby and the changing attitudes towards men’s mental health over the years.

Episodes of ‘Moving Minds’ are recorded on real train journeys on the East Coast Main Line, with guests joining a Hull Trains service to record their episode. The video podcasts feature personal stories about mental health, as well as the small things guests do to look after their own wellbeing.

Find information and support for your mental health on the NHS website or contact Samaritans who offer help 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Hi, Gemma Renton here, and we are back for another Hull Trains podcast Moving Minds. And today I am so excited, it's a very special episode. Yes, my brother Chris Charles and my nephew Jack Charles, the father and son who play for Hulkingston Rovers, well, Chris did back in the day, are with me today to talk all about men's mental health and what it's like to be red and white. Well, welcome. I thought the first thing I was gonna say when I don't know how this is gonna go. So it's a family affair today. Um I've got me my nephew Jack Charles and my brother Chris Charles. I've nearly forgotten your name then. And the first thing that Jack says is is the camera placed so that you can see your brother. That's a real good start. I mean, you've got a big mop, Jack, so we don't need to worry about that. Although, before we get into anything, we do need to discuss the mustache. I think every single member of the family has said that it has to go. It takes me about half an hour to lie that right for anybody who doesn't know, listening or watching, um Chris is a former captain of Hulkingston Rovers, and now our Jack, his son, has signed with Hulk art. So for me, this is like this is just amazing, and I just wanted to get you one because the podcast is about like mental health and and you know sort of delving into male's mental men's mental health more as well, but it's also just about a chance to have a gin wagon and chat. So I mean, before we even start, look, I've got me reversed. Although I did see that there's a massive stain on it. Anybody who's um listening, I apologize for not being able to see the visuals, but I got a little bit tipsy at the um World Cup Challenge. Yeah, World Cup Challenge. I can't remember what it was called. What a night that was. Okay, talk to me, where do we start? Chris. I would consider the golden era of like your Mike Fletches, your Paul Fletches, your Stanley jeans and all of that. What was that like for you? Because I remember obviously us being kids, and you were always diving between cricket, football, and rugby league. So what was it in the end that that made that decision complete for the rugby league path?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Was it essentially Hulkingston Rovers coming in or a bit of a sport pulling, like you say, you know, I usually just love sport and play any sport that I could uh could get involved with, really. Yeah. And have that that time. I mean, for me, it started probably in the 80s, obviously, with rovers being successful during that time, and it's fortunate to just remember that time, just remember the sort of some of the players that was around then. Um like the Mike Smiths, the Gavin Millers, uh Matt Broadhurst, um, Gordon Smith, just to name just a few of the players that was there then, and obviously I grew up watching them um and and always uh always was a Rovers fan, lived not far from the ground. Uh used to go to games regular um and just uh sort of a passion for rugby league and um I used to go and watch it from the amateur rugby as well with uh Ace amateurs with stepdad um who used to take me take me all over with them. So it's just sort of a passion really for the game and I loved it and and then I played for Whole Boys Club when I was a young kid. Yeah. Um and like I say just went from there and got asked to go down to Rovers Academy at the time. A few of my mates had signed, I didn't, um, because I weren't asked if you like. Um but then I just sort of like you say, just got an opportunity and I thought, you know, this is my chance to go and give it a go and give it my best. And like I said, not long after being at the academy, and then I got signed and ended up in the first team, which was you know fantastic. I was playing with some of the kids, like you say, that I'd watched um as well. Um got to play, like you say, Mike Fletcher and Paul Fletcher and Wen Parker, again, sort of them players, uh, got to play with them. So an amazing opportunity, and like something that I look back and really proud of, really. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, yeah, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

I remember that happening, and um and then you progressed into becoming captain.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

How long had you been there before you got that that accolade of of of leading the club?

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Um probably probably about six or seven years, I think. Um I've gone in '94, uh, and I was captain in sort of last year. So actually, it's probably a little bit longer than that, but it was like you know, something a progression that um I always wanted to do it, if you like. I always had the um ambition to to be the best that I could and and try and lead by example, and and it was kind of like a a progression that that went on. You know, it's not easy, it's not easy being a captain of a team, and it certainly weren't at the time because you know the robbers weren't um by a great team at that time, but we had a lot of um kids who was uh from Hull, uh Hull based and and really passionate about the team, and you know, and I was fortunate to progress to being captain at at that time, but like I say it wasn't easy, you know. You learn very quickly that it's uh it's a tough challenge.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Because you you and you can tell me to shut up, yeah, but like you have disclosed to me that that was a really difficult time for you with your mental health.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Yeah, it was, yeah. I yeah, again looking back and you kind of I mean mental health is more spoken about now, and then it wasn't you know it wasn't sort of even mentioned really, it was just something that um that you sort of dealt with um in in your own way and and I had to deal with it in my own way and put a really lot of pressure on myself because I wanted us to be good, I wanted us to be a good team, you know, with what we had, we didn't have a lot of lot of resources and things like that, not like it is now, but put a lot of pressure on myself to to be good, to be a good captain, to be a good person, to be a good uh teammate, and that took its toll, um sort of in a private way, if you like. So, you know, like say going away from the team and going away from the uh the club and um in your own time and and really taking things on board, really taking things to heart, and and it was tough, it wasn't you know, it's not easy, a bit like say being a captain, but yeah, to to have that pressure that I put on myself um and to deal with that in a kind of like in a in my own way, and like I say it wasn't really spoken about, no nobody mentioned anything like that, and I didn't have a clue really sorry at the time of what was happening. But I look back now and you recognise sort of uh recognise it for yourself, sort of to say that well yeah, it was a tough time and I was struggling um mentally, but again, there wasn't resources, there wasn't people that you really spoke to that um that uh around at the time, very differ different now, thankfully, it's very different now, and you know I've come a long way since then.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

So, how how is it for you then when you're watching Jack? Obviously, Jack's just come from you've gone from whole FC to whole KR now, so you're following in dad's footsteps, but you'd follow in your dad's footsteps in any way because it's your way, does that make sense? So it's it's just a it's just a bonus that that there's that sort of like correlation between you going to the same club that that your dad was at. Does it do you watch, are you able to watch Jack and feel at ease with it, or do you have the worries and concerns that you went through for Jack?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Um I've got the worries and concerns in terms of um you know I'm a parent watching, you know, like any other parent who's watching the kids play sport, what sport it is, it doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah. You still have them concerns and and you know, you just want them to do well, you want them to be happy in what they're doing, you want them to have a real good crack at it. Yeah, you know, I mean Jack's um very different individual to me in terms of um some of the things that how he goes about his business and how he he conducts himself, and you know, and and that you know, and the environment that he's in is very different as well. Um, you know, so it's kind of like puts me at ease a little bit in terms of the uh any um help that he can get or how the help that he that he needs is there for him. Yeah. I'm kind of like in the background a little bit now. You know, I mean I coached Jack as a young kid, and yeah, that has its challenges. Um but you know, it was um talk to me, Jack. What was that like? It was uh it's tough from my point of view than to coach him and tell him.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

When did he stop doing the thing where he like laid down on the floor and and started screaming? Was that before the coaching? I remember just talking about this the other day with grandma and granddad, mum and dad, and apparently they could there was one time when Maria around the back, so Maria's our sister, Maria was looking through the window and they could see you, you weren't moving and you just threw yourself down on the floor when you were and Chris just came and got you by the scrub and picked you up and so I'm guessing that stopped when when when your dad was now looking back, I've I don't know how you dealt with me to be honest. Oh my god, did you catch it back?

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Did you catch my podcast again? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

But I mean now like I mean Jack, you you I'm always really like careful about about this because like we're all so proud of you, like so proud of you, but then you don't want it to be like where we're all so proud of you, and then there's this pressure on you, like that's that's the one thing that I'm always really mindful of. Like, I know I sent you that WhatsApp voice note when you was in Vegas last week, look at that. Um but then I'm always like very much like I don't want I don't want him to feel too much under pressure. How is how has it been for you sort of like with your journey with getting to where where you are at at KR and and what comes with that?

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yeah, well well growing up I've always it's always been rugby league. Like I've obviously there's other sports that I've played and but it's just always been I've always really been around it. Um obviously watching watching Super League growing up and playing rugby in in the in the house, in the front room, in on in the garden, yeah. Um Go into the field with dad and always always been around it really, but um you speak about pressure, I f for me I because I love it so much, I don't really see it as a pressure.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Like this is what I've always wanted to do. I love it to to bits and I'd I'd die doing it, but I'd I'd I've never thought of it as a burden. Um so that's that I feel like that's probably the best way I put I can put it, really.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

And is that what you mean by how Jack approaches things differently to you in terms of like how you dealt with that anxiety and and worry and how he's gone into?

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Yeah, very very sort of like I say, like back in the day it was it it was a I don't know, it wasn't um like you say it wasn't mentioned, it wasn't spoken about, whereas now it is, and there's a lot more resources around there for for people to to deal with that. But it's refreshing from like to listen to Jack and and to say well it isn't a bad, and and and it shouldn't be, do you know there's there's um that's all you want, isn't it? That's all you want, you know, just to go in to uh to the training, to go to uh his games and and relax and be the best version that you possibly can of yourself. And and you kind of feel like your pressure is during the week, your game it there isn't any pressure because it's all new, it's all fresh, but it can go out and express himself and like just to listen to him say that is it's it's refreshing, it's so good.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Well it's it's interesting because this series I was talking to Amy Thompson and we were both saying like how if we had um our own children, how hard it might it would be for us because we've got issues, well not issues, we we struggle more with our mental health. I would always be worried about instilling that in my child. So, like to hear you as my nephew and like you say as your son to sort of go, do you know what? No, no, I'm dad, I'm I'm I'm in check, I'm alright. It's just like oh my goodness, it's like a breath of fresh air. I mean, the one thing for for me and and the family was how you coped with the transition from whole FC to whole KR. Now, anybody who's listening who isn't from Hull, like that's the rivalry, that's the big sort of black and whites versus the red and whites, and it and for a lot of people they're very, very passionate about that, you know. How has that been for you having that transition? And like, is there anything like I've often had to listen to it and sit back and not say anything because I feel like some things have been misconstrued. How has that been for you? And is there anything that you want to say about that situation?

SPEAKER_01 12:52

You don't have to, but well obviously there's gonna be a lot of opinions and a lot of things that get said, like that it's that's it's rugby league, it's a sport we're in. Um I get the rivalry, I love the rivalry. It's it's for me it's the best rivalry in rugby league, Roversville. Um but along with that I get fans are fans and they're gonna say a lot of stuff on on social media and stuff like that. But um for me I just I've always wanted to go um there's obviously there's a lot of stuff that went on in the background and I'll maybe one day I will they'll go into it, but yeah um for me I just concentrated on being at Rovers now. I'm I'm I'm absolutely loving it. Um one of the best things that's ever happened to me. And yeah, um I love going into training and and seeing the boys and and the coach and staff. Um it's been a it's been a breath of fresh air and and I'm really enjoying it.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

And for me I'm I feel like you've just been scooped up in a real nice way. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 13:49

For me, it's just about living in I'm very much like living in the present, living in the now. Like I don't wanna like the past is the past, the future's the future. I'm I'm every day I'll I'll go into training a lot to improve and get better. And for me, I'm just very focused on on the now.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

You're tearing.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

No, no, no, it's just nice listening to it it is it isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Yeah, listen to um Oh, one of us is alright in the family.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

No again, going to like it's control, isn't it? You can only control like what you can control. Like Jack can only control himself, how he acts, how he reacts, how uh he goes about his his business. Like saying going in every day to try and improve and to try and focus on that is it you know it like again, it it's really good to hear. Um you can't control what people say. You can't control the uncontrollable, you can't control what people put on social media. I mean social media is a brilliant place for lots of good things, for lots of things, but it's also can be horrendous. Can be can be a tough place. And and like I said, for for people to read it, for people to go into it, people to not think really before they put things out there, um, you know, that that's sort of more probably hurtful for like you know, for like the likes of us, you know, like in the background whereas for Jack, you can kind of say, well I can I can't control that. But I can control what I do, and that is like say going to training, going to the games, going to you know, to to represent like his club, you know, represent himself in the best way that he can he possibly can and and like say just to hear him say that is it it's really good to hear, isn't it? It's really nice to sit to uh to listen to.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

It was probably but the pro the hardest thing was obviously with the transition was probably seeing it like affect your family kind of thing. Like obviously there's you guys and my mum's side as well. That that that wasn't nice, but I've I always say just stay away from it, like if you don't read it, there's not like you can't control what they're gonna say. One day they'll be saying something nice and then the next minute they'll be they'll be slagging you off, so it's it's it's a lot it's a loose situation, but like as long as you I I know that I um that you're always gonna support me and like you d just stay away from it. You don't need to read it.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Oh god, honestly, can I just bottle up your head and put it on my because sometimes like I need that from you and you're like I mean what 21 years younger than me, but I mean just just I know like I would target you on that one, I wish I could talk to you for longer because like this is just so special for me, so thank you both for coming on. Um I obviously I was poorly when you were born, Jack. So like I I think like around 20 was like I just had the heart attack around there, and there's a photo where I'm holding you, and I don't I think you might have seen it, and we'll maybe show it on the podcast. But I'm holding you and I am so poorly, like I'm just like pale white and I've had a heart attack, and I'm I'm so glad that I was able to sort of like get better like and recover before you became acutely aware of it. But like one thing that I do know is that because of your dad, you've always supported me and it's never been seen as a uh a bad thing. Um so I guess like from me to you, thank you. Um Chris, it was your 50th uh on Saturday.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

I didn't think he was gonna mention that.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

And we all got a little bit tipsy, so I'm really pleased that everybody around today you were you were drinking water, you were so good. But there was something, there was a moment where there's a picture of us hugging, and I whispered in your ear and I said, I don't think you realise like that. Because we were so close in age and you were still at home when I was going through it. Like you could have just completely turned your back on me because it was hell in that house when I was poorly, and you never turned your back on me, Chris. And I I just I don't think I'd be here without you in in so many ways. So I just want to thank you as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

And well, you know, you again you you look at people's struggles and you know and you look at what people go through, and probably at the time didn't really understand a lot of it, you know, and and you did, and I could I I couldn't believe that that my brother but you but you try your best, don't you? You know, you try your best by just being there, you know. I mean, I remember like saying me mum and Dennis, you know, breaking down in front of me, and it wasn't nice to see you know like them sort of going through what they was going through, and you just think, well, do you know look if I can kind of like because I had to focus on like my rugby and my sport all the time, I was heavily involved with that. Um and it was kind of like that was my outlet, so I had that, whereas like you and and uh mum and that didn't didn't have that, but if I could be stable in all that, then at least then it's kind of like that that that option to be there in teaching and and and not to um you know to face it, you know. You can't just walk away and um and and just say well you know that's not my problem because it is because we're all family and we all look after each other as best we can um and be there to support each other, you know, and that's something that I try to do like with you, obviously you know, with Jack and and and Lois, my uh my daughter, you know, I've got stepkids with Ollie and Millie, you know, and we support them as well as much as we can and and and try and make sure that everybody's alright because you want everybody to be okay, and and that's what all my wishes for for you is to be happy and be good, you know, things like this that you're doing, you know, and it's really nice to see in terms from that and to see where you've where you was and where you are now, it's pulls apart and it's it's it's brilliant, and and like I say, you just want people to be okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Thank you. Well, I mean, we normally do a little quick fire round, but we're coming into Hull, and I just want to plug something really quick because it's important. You must be a glutton for punishment because on April the 26th, you are running the London Marathon for our charity, Seed Eat Disorder Support Services, and this is your fourth time running it. And I remember on the second time you was like, No, not doing it again, third time, no, not doing it again, but you're doing it again. So, anybody listening who has been touched by this episode, please, please, please have a little search. Chris Charles, Seed Eat Disorder Support Services, London Marathon.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah, and if you can dig deep and yeah, it's well, you know, it is like you said, to you know, just to spot it. First time I think of it, I thought I'd never do it again. Second time, never again. Third time was a definite never again, and now like here we are, like you said.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Well, you do know it's you doing it next, don't you? Well, once you have it.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

I've always said I'd like to run one eventually. Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Nabbing you for it. It's on print.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

It's a brilliant, I mean it is a brilliant occasion, it's amazing, you know, like the crowds and things like that, and you know, it's I'm not doing it for all that, I'm trying to raise a bit of money obviously, but it's um you know, it is a fantastic um occasion, you know, something that you know, like I said, I'll put my body for a little bit of uh a little bit of help for uh for for you if you like, and um and try and like say try and raise some money, which is the important side of things, to give people the support um and not just sufferers carers as well in the background of of what people go through and just offer that little bit of support in and around the the charity and what you do because you do an amazing job and it in an easy job, and you know, raising money is not an easy job, but if people can just donate a few quid, it'll go a long way to uh to what we're what we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Thank you. Well, I mean that was quite seamless. I didn't give away many bad memories, but no, just the one where you used to um tickle my ribs until I felt like they were breaking because you wanted to watch cricket and I wanted to watch Herman Away. But apart from that, like there's there's no resentment there. Thank you so much, both of you, for coming on today. It means the absolute world.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Thank you. Thank you.