Force Vs Forgiveness: Saturday Night Chaos vs. Sunday Sermons

Sirens on Saturday night. A sermon on Sunday morning. We open the gap between them and seek truth in the tension. From domestic violence, fatal DUIs, and child abuse, we walk through scenes where “turn the other cheek” collides with “protect the innocent,” and we seek answers to the questions we ask as first responders: how do justice and mercy fit together?

We ground the answer in God’s nature and the Cross. Justice and mercy aren’t competing switches; they are who God is, held together without fracture. Romans 13 frames legitimate police authority and the “sword” to oppose evil but not a license for vengeance. We seek the Scripture to redefine justice as restoring order and goodness, not merely punishment. Through Jesus' account of cleansing the temple, we also study righteous anger—planned, proportionate, and purposeful vs. sinful anger.  

Then we press into forgiveness without minimizing evil. Forgiving doesn’t erase consequences or dishonor victims; it releases personal vengeance and trusts God’s judgment. We draw strength from Scripture’s hard edges—floods, Sodom, the Psalms—and bring raw prayers to the only One who already knows. 

We also look at prayer: pre and post chaos, and as a daily habit of abiding in Christ that shapes us long before the fight. 

If this conversation helps you or someone you serve with, pass it on. Subscribe, leave a quick review, and share the episode with a first responder who needs freedom from what they carry. Your support gets this into the hands that need it most.

Transcript

Framing Justice Versus Mercy

SPEAKER_00 0:08

So we're gonna just start off with going through this idea of like force and forgiveness, which would be maybe a subcategory of justice versus mercy. Um I think I'd probably just start off, just paint a picture of like what is what are some areas of tension that say a police officer, someone in the military, even a fire guy, might experience on a daily basis. And just trying to paint a little bit of a picture of like what this tension is in this area, again, as we're calling force and forgiveness or just justice versus mercy.

Domestic Violence And Turn-The-Other-Cheek

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Um, you know, Derek and I have been on, I don't even know, hundreds and hundreds of domestic violence calls. Just randomly, I'll just kind of pick one in my head to start with. Um so you get called to a domestic, you show up, and oh boy's belligerent drunk, right? Let's just go out there and say, like, person I'm currently thinking of like bigger than I am. He's drunk, he's pissed off, um show up. I remember the whole like front door of the house is ripped off. Battered his wife, he's going to jail. Here you are, you're a police officer, doesn't matter who you are, but you've got a badge and a uniform on. You are what he does not want to see right now, get into a end up getting into a fight with him taking him into custody. Um it happens, I don't even know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times across this country, probably every day. And say that same officer, you fast forward, let's say that happened on a Saturday night. You fast forward now, it's Sunday morning. Wife wakes you up to go to church. And which for me is like I work third shift, so she's got to wake me up. My alarm doesn't wake me up. Um wife wakes you up for church, you go to church, and you hear this preacher, preacher boy. He's got perfectly cut fingernails, got his skinny jeans on, all metro looking, soft hands, Bible. Probably never been in a fight in his entire life. And he's preaching, let's just say he's preaching out like the book of Matthew. Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, you get hit in the left cheek, turn the other cheek also. And like as an officer, and you have these experiences, like you're sitting there and you remember last night, what would I have done? What would have happened to me? What would have happened to that wife if I showed up? We started getting into this fight, and I turned the other cheek, like utter chaos. I get hurt, maybe I don't go home, she continues to get hurt, and you have this tension. Like, was Jesus not talking to us? Like, what how could I ever live out that principle and be a police officer and try to be a protector and a defender of my community?

Fatal Crash, Mercy, And Outrage

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Fast forward next situation. Um show up on a car crash. Car crashes are happening every, I mean, we're going to them sometimes once an hour. And again, just kind of go through the Rolodex that crashes, pick a crash, show up. Um lady's dead in a car. Head-on collision. She's very obviously completely deceased. No, no way to even provide medical attention. Go over to the car, particular vehicle I'm thinking of happened to be overturned. You hear this dude inside screaming. Throughout that investigation, um, he ends up being, I never met him before, ends up being a straight pillhead. He's got multiple OWIs operating well intoxicated charges and convictions in the past. He's out here, kills this innocent lady. Go back, kind of figure out, don't know this woman, go back. She's actually a kind of an intricate um person in our community, done a lot of great for our community. Let's just theoretically say you're driving home from that and happen to flip by a Christian radio channel. Say Matthew again, preaching out of Matthew. Guys talking about mercy. That we need to be blessed is are the merciful. Am I supposed to show mercy to this person that has made all these horrible decisions that just took the life of this innocent person? What are we talking about here? What does that look like? Like it says, blessed are the merciful. When am I, as an officer, supposed to show mercy? When am I not supposed to show mercy? I think, I mean, again, you just go through right, like these situations. I mean, heaven forbid,

Evil Up Close: Child Abuse Cases

SPEAKER_00 5:20

right? Every cop you get in involved in these child molest cases, these rape cases, I think like just one of them that comes to mind. So so sadistic, right? The the theme that this guy took in his interview. This is a grown guy in his 40s, 50s. The theme that he latched onto in his interview was that this seven-year-old girl, she just wanted it so bad that he essentially just had to sexually appease her desires. A seven-year-old girl. And I mean, you're sitting there and you're watching this and you see the evil at play, and and and and then again, just using the book of Matthew, talks about that if we to are to receive forgiveness, that we should be a forgiver. Am I supposed to forgive like this uh I mean, horrible human being? What does that look like? Are you telling me I should forgive this guy who violated the innocence of this little person? And and and cops are seeing that on a daily basis and and weekly basis. And so, like, what am I supposed to do as a police officer, as a guy in the military? Because they've seen horrible things too. Like, what's this word forgiveness look like for us? Like, how in the world are you saying we God, are you saying that we need to find forgiveness for these people? That's that's crazy. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

So before you became a cop, Derek, did you ever feel this tension? Or as you became a cop, did this really come to light?

SPEAKER_04 7:15

Yeah, oh, for sure. So, like for me, my mom passed away from cancer. I watched her for it's probably eight years roughly, right? On and off, fight cancer. And she was the most amazing person. And I'd be like, why her, right? Like, why not this other guy who's a you know, this scroll back over here that's causing all these problems? My mom never caused problems. She didn't drink, you know, she obeyed the law, she raised us right, but still watched her pass away from a horrible disease. So, like there's there's some of that, right? Like, how am I supposed to forgive these people for doing these horrible things? You know, my mom's this this great individual, um, but she has to be punished and go through this. And I think a lot of that now that you know I've grown some, just came from a misunderstanding of what a sinful world is and what justice is, right? What mercy really is. Um, I think sometimes we we kind of combine all of those things and make up our own system, and that hurts us. So I just I still struggle, right? I'm a human being, but I don't struggle as much with that anymore.

unknown 8:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

What's that look like for you? Obviously, you're not, you know, you have just like any other person, like you're seeing trials and tribulations and evil things at play, like what tensions have you seen arise?

SPEAKER_03 8:38

Yeah. I mean, right now in the current, um, had a a friend I've known for over a decade sin against me and my family. And so I'm wrestling with how do I handle that? And um how do I act towards him in the midst of injustice and how do I not just wring his neck, you know? Um yeah, I think we like to live in obliviousness. We like to just the day by day distracts us, we numb ourselves to the Twitter feed or whatever we're looking at, and until it hits us. And so you guys get hit time and time again. And someone like me, it happens once in a greater while. And so, um, yeah, that's where I I'm wrestling with this firsthand. Justice and mercy. How does this go together?

Personal Grief And Early Tensions

SPEAKER_03 9:35

And I feel like rooted in all of this is this um this misunderstanding of who God is, because we hear that on a Sunday morning, turn the other cheek, and yet that's not right. The guy who violated a seven-year-old, lock him up, castrate him, you know, that's right. So, how do we balance this? Is God not good? Is he not just, but yet is he not merciful and forgives us? And so this tension is really portrayed throughout all of scripture. Um and I feel like in my own walk, the closer and closer I get to Christ, the more I understand him, the more this tension rests, the more this tension can be put to bed because I know who he is, that he is fully just and he is fully merciful at the same time. Um there's this uh aspect of God's nature that no one talks about. It's called divine simplicity. Um, it's that God can't be broken down into parts, and so it's not it's not that God has mercy, but that he is mercy. It's not that God acts justly, it's that he is justice. But he's justice and mercy at the same time, always. And so this tension is really resolved in a person, and I think that's the foundation we need to lay as we wrestle through this more and more, is we have this foundation and we see it. We see it all throughout the scriptures, um, but we see it particularly at one moment on a hill called the skull. Tell me about that. Do you where do you see that tension in Christ? How has that affected you?

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Like, I think we have, you know, I think maybe it's just a simple view of the cross. He went there, he died on the cross so that we can say the sinner's prayer and that we can have salvation. But maybe sometimes we don't understand the magnitude of that. Like, why did he die upon the cross? I think about, you know, he said

Wrestling With God’s Nature

SPEAKER_00 11:59

these words right at the very end before Christ died on the cross. It is finished. What is finished? Like the sin of man, that everyone, like it's in inside every single one of us, born with it from Genesis and the fall of man in the garden. And he bore the sins of all the people on that cross, but why? Because as you're speaking of these attributes or these characteristics of God, not only is he mercy in his he justice, but he is holy. God cannot be in communion with sin. And so Jesus is bearing all of these sins because of God's justice. Right? There has to be some type of sacrifice, some type of penalty, some type of burden carried for the sins of man. And none of us are able to do that, right? None of us, he lived the perfect life, he was the perfect sacrificial lamb, so to speak, to be able to bring about the atonement for sin. And so why? As you said, like because God is a just God. God is not going to allow sin to go unpunished, right? I think in the kind of you know, the normal American church, like we have a heavy focus in modern day on mercy and on love and on peace, and we neglect that side of God that is wrath and is justice. So when Jesus says it is finished, it is because he, because of the Father's, because of God's holiness, something, some way, sin has to be dealt with. And Jesus is taking that sin upon himself to be that atonement, so that we can have repentance and salvation.

SPEAKER_04 14:17

So with that, with like the law enforcement side, you know, like there was justice, right? Like we're sinful creatures, we're that sin was brought into the world. You know, Christ was put on the cross, he bore that sin, justice was served, right? Yeah. So then what is justice? Like I feel like you gotta really break that that down for people. You know,

The Cross As Justice And Mercy

SPEAKER_04 14:38

like it's taking something in disorder and creating order. Like that's what we do every single day. Which it and it looks different sometimes. Sometimes you don't feel like maybe uh there is justice in something. I think we're looking for punishment, right, instead of justice, which are like in my opinion, are two separate things. Before we did this, I was kind of thinking through things and like even just something as simple as a traffic stop, you stop somebody and you give them a warning, you're like, Well, I gave mercy. Well, yes, but there's justice served also. Right? Like the moment those lights come on, that person has to stop. I took away their freedom even for a moment. Right? Like we had some kind of talk, and then I decided, yeah, they're not gonna commit this again. Just talking to them was enough. I'm still enacting some kind of justice. I'm creating order in that. I think like I think if there's not a punishment in law enforcement, we think we've either failed or the system failed. That's not always the case.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

What I'm hearing is justice is a restoration of goodness. Like a bringing from disorder to order so that that that person who wasn't given the ticket, like there's still justice because order and goodness was brought back around.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

Yeah, they took disorder and created order again. You you know, you've we always want to win, right? Like we've won in that instance. Yeah. Right? We don't have to have some kind of punishment. Yeah. It doesn't always have to. And that I mean, then you really have to kind of figure out what is punishment, right? But um that's hard, I think, for people to realize. And that's like one of the things I try to focus on. Like, so I'm an FTO, right? I train new officers. It's one of the things I talk about a lot, is like we don't always have to win, and there's multiple ways to win, right? And sometimes winning is just talking to somebody and sending them on their way.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Yeah. Mercy triumphs over judgment. So justice, we could say, is getting what we deserve. Mercy is not getting what we deserve, and grace is getting what we don't deserve. Um and I think that's why we see that in the cross as clear. We see the nature of God in this tension because um every worldview has to reckon with justice and mercy.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

And I would submit that the Christian worldview is the most just worldview because everybody gets death. Like that for the wages of sin is death. Everyone dies justice. Yes. But how do we get mercy in the midst of that? So over and over again throughout scripture, we see that painted, like um, Noah and the Ark, right? The little kill children's story, right? Everyone dies, and yet a hundred and some years for them to repent. When Noah was a preacher of righteousness, the New Testament would call him. And so there's grace. And Noah's family was spared on the boat. There's mercy in the midst of judgment. Story and story again. You can keep going. Um, Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed justice, and yet Lot was spared. The plagues in Egypt, justice, and yet the Passover, and all this coming together, all of this pointing towards Jesus, that God is both justice and mercy perfectly, and we stand on that foundation, and then we try to wrestle with how does that make sense in our situations.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Yeah, and I I think that's why I like uh I think it headed in that direction is we have to start with God because who are we? We're just three dudes, right? We don't have the we can't just come up on our own with the answers,

Defining Justice Beyond Punishment

SPEAKER_00 18:32

any any solution or resolution to these tensions. And so like we have to look at God. We have to look at the scriptures, but we have to know the nature of God and like seeing him in that like perfect union of justice and mercy. And I think like that brings us into like more like some practical application. Like obviously, as we talked about earlier, like we get into these moments of like use of force, right? Anytime that we're it could be anywhere from putting your hands on somebody, tasing somebody, grappling on the ground with them, hitting them with an impact weapon, pepper spray, whatever, all the way up to bullets going down range. Um and it's like, you know, maybe go start wrestling through this area of like, I think sometimes as a police officer, you encounter a situation, and at some point, you know, kind of in your own head, it's like if you're trying to follow Jesus, and I fail at that every day and every single shift, me too. But if you're trying to follow Jesus, sometimes it's like, can I even do this whole coppin thing? Like, what is this even okay? Does this align with scripture and like especially in like use of force situations? Um brings up to this idea, this topic of like, is there any like biblical authority to use force? Because I see we see these, you know, turn the other cheek and love your neighbor as yourself. And like I think diving in um, you know, more to that use of force topic, it begs these questions of like, say I do need to use force. Does God like shame me? Do I need if I use appropriate and reasonable force, do I need forgiveness? Do I need does it not sit right with God? And again, it goes back into that balance of like understanding that God is justice and God is mercy also.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

So for me, right, like Old Testament, eye for an eye, got there's certain things that like God places authority for government, but there's limitations. Like that eye for an eye doesn't mean like, hey, you know, this dude punched you, go

Government, Romans 13, And The Sword

SPEAKER_04 21:02

punch him back, but like it can't exceed what the crime is, right? Or what took place. So like the use of force stuff, you see these videos of cops just like ground pounding people, it's like, ugh, that's not good. You know, you're taking things into your own hands now that you shouldn't. Um but I feel so called to do this job and like God put me here for a reason, right? And part of this job is taking people into custody, and sometimes they fight and run. I have to do my job. I d I don't feel like God is like, yeah, do your job, but hey, pray for them as they run away, right? Like that's not how things work, it can't work that way. So, you know, I can create justice, right, and bring order back into it, but it's not my place to punish them or to, you know, beat the shit out of them on the ground.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah, I think it just as we go into these like topics, like you know, I think this. Preface that like we we are not soft on crime. Yeah. And I think we'd both say that probably there's a lot of agencies and a lot of officers that need to be more hard on crime.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

We're not soft on crime. Like, and so as people like both SWAT operators, like both getting into use of force situations semi-frequent, just brings us back to this wrestling. Like, how do I try to follow Jesus in the midst of some of these scenes that we walk through regularly are utter, utter, utter chaos. And, you know, just like in going through this, I think of Romans. Um just read like Romans 13 and kind of bounce around a little bit here, but it just seems like God does provide authority to governing structures. So Romans 13, verses 1, it says, everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. Our own government's sinful oftentimes, a local, state, federal, global level. But I think the agency of government is what this is talking about. The idea of government, the agency of government is biblical because God is a God of order, not chaos, all the way down to the cellular level of our bodies. Um so I think just to establish that, yeah, people have free will. Every agent of the government is a person. Ultimately, it comes down to people who have free will. They can make their own decisions if they want to be honorable to the Lord or not. But that government in and of itself seems to be established by God. Skipping over to like verse three and four of Romans 13. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. He's speaking to the people. Do you want to be free from the fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right, and he will commend you. Again, the one in authority, for he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. And so we see in the scripture where, right, and I think it's important that just to note

Purpose Of Force: Restrain Evil, Not Punish

SPEAKER_00 24:56

that, like we've tried to, you know, I know as we study the scriptures, like we're trying to put scriptures in context, right? Trying the opposite of putting a scripture in context is the mainstream media, right? They pull one phrase out of a two-hour interview and they use that against the person, or they use it for their own benefit. And so I think, you know, like for me, just trying to like study is this really what God's teaching? And it seems that God is instituting the idea of government as a good thing in the context of these scriptures, that it's not just pulling them out. And so then we see, you know, for for he is God's servant to do you good, the this person. And I think ultimately, you know, these scriptures, Romans written over 2,000 years ago. I think if you fast forward 2,000 years ago, at least here in this country in the United States, that seems to look like the judicial system. And the first line of defense in that judicial system is, in fact, police officers. And so I think it's okay to immediately connect, you know, this kind of part two of this. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. And so I think it also speaks to this idea of like, what is the purpose? Like, what is ultimately our purpose? And then as we take that and we kind of navigate down that use of force, you know, that use of force road, ultimately, our authority is to restrain and mitigate evil, right? Restrain and mitigate evil. However, like what Derek started to brush into, not have this personal grudge, this personal vengeance. We are not the, you know, as much as some, you know, there are situations that you maybe you feel like you are a punisher, so to speak, right? Everybody, all these cops, right? People, real cops typically make fun of all the people that have punisher tattoos and bumper stickers. And um we're not punishers. We are there as a gatekeeper of order and chaos, trying to restrain evil.

SPEAKER_04 27:20

So on that, right? And like being controlled and under control and you know, and following God, but also doing what needs to be done. Right? That like ability to have a righteous anger towards sin and and what is wrong. There's a story. I I love it.

Jesus’ Whip And Righteous Anger

SPEAKER_04 27:37

We just went over in church the other day, this little tidbit where you know Jesus leaves, right, the temple and he goes and pre-plans. He's got his mission set ready, he starts tying knots in his little whip, right? He's he goes back and drives these people, these money changers out, turns over tables, frees all these, you know, these sheep and animals, but he doesn't release the doves. It's a real small part, right? But if you were to release them, the animals you can catch. You can pick up the money tables and carry it out. But if you release the doves, they're gone forever. Those people who owned those, right? They're never gonna get him back. You've like taken it a step too far. It's a real small part, but I just love that. I've never seen that. He's righteous and he's angry, right? Righteously so. Right. But he doesn't go beyond what he needs to go or where he needs to go to get his point across.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

I've never seen there in that passage, Derek, though, that part about the doves. So can we unpack that a little more?

SPEAKER_04 28:42

Yeah, so John, I think it's 16, 216. Um choose all the animals out, but the doves. Right, he says, Take the these things away. Do not make my father's house a house of merchandise. Alright. So he made a whip of cords, he drove them out of the temple with the sheep, the oxen, he poured out the changers, uh, money, and overturned the tables. Yeah, and he said to those who sold the doves, take these things away. So as far as like righteous anger, and he's obviously angry. She should be. All of these coins, all the stuff on the tables can be picked up, the sheep, the oxen can be caught and taken back home. They're not going to be lost. But the moment you release those doves, like you've taken another step.

unknown 29:30

Right.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

I'm not just proving a point. Now I'm destroying things that'll be gone forever that you'll never get back. Right. So it's the same thing with our job, right? Like you have to do your job, you have to get your point across, you have to do it justly, and having that righteous anger is a good thing, right? But uncontrolled anger is not a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

So it kind of like gets us into this idea, like what place is there for emotions and like intent, like asking questions, like what so say we get into this use of force situation. I mean, all the way to the extent of deadly force. What is our intent? What is our motivation? Where's our heart and our mind at? And so I think we use Jesus in this passage, right? Jesus is He's more than the personification of God, he is God in human form on this earth. And so when we need to find a description of like, what is love today? What is mercy, what is justice, we can use Jesus to paint that picture. And like we see him here in the temple. And like this is not what the church paintings on the wall are, right? They're not pictures of Jesus with a whip, but yet it's it's in scripture. These are events that happen, right? We've walked in in Israel in these literal places, like it's not some fairy tale Santa Claus story, like we've there are real places. This is real historical events that occurred. And so it's like, okay, what was in his mind? Okay, we've this righteous anger, which is what you know, believers attribute this kind of characteristic or these actions to Jesus with. And so then it gets into that deeper issue inside of law enforcement and this kind of idea of like force and forgiveness. So force, like it appears in Romans that we have authority to enact justice upon kind of a weird way to say it, but upon the populace, upon people. But then obviously there's a line that we can cross. And so, what is that line and where is it at? And I think this idea of like

Heart Check In Use Of Force

SPEAKER_00 31:58

righteous anger versus sinful anger is like this broader topic that obviously like we need to delve into, and just like looking back into the Gospel of John there in that story, right? John's the only one that talks about the whip. I like John. I like just always, you know, throughout the got the Gospel of John, like he's always painting different pictures that aren't oftentimes not found in the other gospels. But like, what can we take away from this event that may be applicable to directly to law enforcement on a daily basis, right? The dude that's calling on duty right now, it's getting into a car, and three minutes from now, his next call's coming out, and it might go sideways. And I think, you know, just to begin with, like we see where Jesus' anger is directed at evil. It's directed. There's this the motivation behind it is not sinful. It's different than that.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

Yeah, I've got applications buzzing all over the place in my mind, trying to boil it in, thinking of the Lord's prayer when he says, Your kingdom come, your will be done. It's like part of bringing justice is bringing God's kingdom. Like Jesus was bringing the kingdom with a whip, with force. And we see that throughout scripture, these men of God, Joshua conquering Canaan with force. David killed his thousands. Um Nehemiah, the guy who built a wall, right? Yeah, big deal. But then at the end of Nehemiah, he's like ripping out beards and going to blows because these dudes were sinning. And that the two dangers of spectrum I see is like the under-application of force, not bringing a whip when you need the whip, but then the over-application of force. And then in the middle of that, what's my heart behind the whore, the force? And so that that anger that I have, and righteously so, but yet is it about bringing God's kingdom? Your kingdom come, your will be done, or is it about bringing my kingdom? What feels right to me?

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Yeah, no, I mean that's like immediately brings like situations to mind, right? You take that that doesn't matter either situation I talked about in the beginning, the predator violating a kid, the domestic situation where this female, probably smaller than the male, is a victim. And it's like something we haven't really like talked about is sometimes there's calls where like they're going sideways, they're high on the violence scale. There's not much place for me in the realm of mercy other than to protect the victim. But my actions towards the suspect is really just justice. And, you know, you take this to the furthest degree, an active shooter, right? There's no room for mercy. Our job, required by the civilians in which we serve, delegated by the authority that God has given us, even, is to go in there and eliminate

When Mercy Yields To Protection

SPEAKER_00 35:29

a threat. And the mercy, the sacrifice, is for the innocence. There is no mercy for the suspect. And but I also think, though, that like our motivation, again, take away the deadly force situations and go into the lesser force situations, right? Emotions get involved when we're in a fight, heart rates accelerated, all these physiological, biological things are happening, making sure that our intent, that our heart stops force when force is no longer necessary. First, I was trying to like go back and it's like, all right, is there are there situations in my past and my years and years as a cop where like I had sinful anger, not righteous anger? And like immediately, like one dude popped in my mind, a guy that we've dealt with, um been in multiple foot chases with, been in multiple use of force scenarios with, um, you know, everything from we've hit his house on patrol, we've hit his house in a swap capacity. And like the last time I dealt with this dude, um, just an just acting an absolute fool, right? And just it just happens to be like my time on duty has overlapped with this dude's dumb days. And so like he knows me and I know him. And last time I dealt with him, um, I show up, this dude is dripping blood all over the place, not from us, but he got a little justice from a civilian in which he broke into their house. And he's covered in blood, all he's heavily intoxicated, probably very much under the influence of meth. All of him turns on me, whatever, right? Been here. We're there all the time, don't care. But I don't want this dude's blood all over me, right? Somebody chose to cuff him in front, don't know why. And so I show up and this dude's charging me, right? I've got every uh justification to use force against this dude. This dude's covered in blood. I'm just trying to keep him off of me. Throw him on the ground. We get into a little bit on the ground. Um, I'm covered in blood, and this dude's chaos was like this was ended up, we ended up having it because he's injured and all this stuff. We're at the hospital. This is like hours and hours of chaos. I do not like this guy. He doesn't like me. I don't like him. I've had really no positive interactions with this dude. And I guess it was just like that first like situation that comes to mind. Like, I mean, I was pissed. Like, and like I it was just one of those levels, like you, one of those days where like situations and people, you you feel like this dude needs the absolute breaks beat off of him. But and that did not happen, but it was like trying to go back and analyze like what I see in God's forgiveness and what I see in God's mercy, like just in for my own

Post‑Incident Mercy And Prayer

SPEAKER_00 38:40

life, is like every day is a new day. Like every time that I seek God's seek him out, seek his forgiveness, like he erases that slate. I was like, all right, like asking myself, like, how much of that aspect of God do I need to apply to the people that we have like frequent, frequent encounters with? And on the tactical side, that doesn't mean to be dumb and let this dude get one up on you, right? It it's like go, like I think about like the academy, like way back when I remember some dude talking about I don't know who he's quoting, but like every person you meet, like offer them the olive branch of peace while having a plan to kill them. And so not negating like the tactical side of this, but like giving that dude an opportunity for each encounter. And like I something the reason why this popped in mind was like I saw that dude in jail not too long ago, and it was like he, you know, obviously sober now, it was like he earnestly tried to offer some grace to me and just a very quick conversation, and I was like super not accepting of it. Just like, you piece of shit, I don't want to talk to you. And like it, I just like almost as soon as I like thought it, and I don't know what I said to him, and you know, I wasn't that harsh with him, but it was just like no, we're not having this conversation. And like immediately the Holy Spirit just like put me in check of like, but I'm not, you know, like God's saying to me, like, but I'm not like that with you.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

Your anger ever got out of check. Have you got yourself after the fact?

SPEAKER_04 40:22

Oh, yeah. I mean, if I said no, I'd be lying, right? And so would anybody else. Um you know, one particular instance. I think very thankful. I think that God or an angel, guardian angel, something is with me, right? Um and I'm pretty good about anything, really. Like if we do a search warrant and it turns up it turns bad, doesn't really bother me. Um domestic violence calls, all that stuff doesn't. But when it comes to children, I have a really, really hard time swallowing that. And it really, really gets to me. I'm gonna be real vague on this. But individual just destroyed their children's lives in the worst ways imaginable. Um we looked for this person for a long time. Like it was a joint effort of a lot of people to find this person. We end up locating them, right? We hit the house, blow the door open, give them an opportunity to come out, which they do. And I'm one man, right? The first person at the door, and and there this person stands, just right in front of me. Right in my sights, right? Um in my sights, so they pop around the corner. And the only thing I can think about is the children, right? Like, and then what is justice and what I think justice in the moment looks like. Um really kind of putting myself out there on this one, but um yeah, obviously not my place, right? I'm not a judge, I'm not God, right? Like, he is the ultimate authority, and it's up to him what happens. My responsibility is just to take this person in and put them in a position where maybe justice can be served in in a different way or punishment, right? Um but I think officers every day in every county across the whole country deal with that same situation or very similar situations. You have these young people who, man, they just don't deserve that, right? And they're gonna have to live with that for the rest of their life.

Praying Through Operations And Aftermath

SPEAKER_04 42:34

And how how could you? You know, how how can you how can you not suffer uh through that without God? I hope they find God, because that's the only way they're gonna work through it, I imagine. But um that's that's one that sticks out hard for me. That's that's really the only one I can I can think of. Man, where I was really just fueled off that uh that anger and that aggression. Um I really lived by outside of that. I allow everyone else to dictate uh what happens. Right. If something bad happens, it was their choice, not mine. I didn't choose that, they did. Uh I just happened to be the person that was there at the time.

SPEAKER_03 43:19

Yeah. I'm hearing a lot of things. Let me see if I can uh summarize some stuff and you guys can see if I got it or if you want to change the wording here. But um I think scripture says turn your cheek, it doesn't turn, it doesn't say to turn their cheek. And so, like when you see that child abused, you're not called to have them turn the other cheek towards that person, you're called to protect. Because the Lord is a protector of the weak and the vulnerable, the orphan and the widow. And so to not step in with force would be sinful. But to step in with too much. Force would be sinful. Or to step in with force that is fueled by personal vengeance or an illegitimate reason in my heart is sinful. But if I step in with the love of God, that if my force is fueled by love, my force is good. And then the force has to meet what the encounter is. So the dude who's coming after you, like that level of force is one level of force. But when that dude's in cuffs and behind bars, suddenly that need of force is removed. And I think that's where you guys can check your heart then, too. Is is that is that anger and hatred still there towards him?

SPEAKER_04 44:49

Now run through all that in about half a second.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

Bam. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:55

That's all the time you got.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

You should get it right every time.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

I think that that brings a good point, though, of like maybe like a super applicable side of this is like when we're not in those moments, spending time with the Lord. Right? It's like we become who we surround ourselves with, right? If we are, right, and I'm working on these things myself, right? Most imperfect person, spending our time in the word, spending our time with in prayer, with the one who is justice and who is mercy without inconsistency, then I think it allows us in those split-second decisions to favor what God would desire in those moments. Yeah, because we can't change the outcome most of the time, right? I mean, we can use all the tactics and tools and techniques and procedures and equipment and right, but that dude gets a vote, right? The suspect gets a vote. And so, yeah, I think in those moments, like, you know, just slow down a fight when you go back and you replay just a like kind of good old boy hands-on fight, right? It's slow motion. You're seeing this hand come up, you're seeing this leg come up, you're doing this whatever. Yeah, we don't have time to think about these things, right? You're just doing what your body already knows how to do. Um, but yeah, I think that brings up that good point of just like

Forgiveness Without Minimizing Evil

SPEAKER_00 46:33

being with the Lord outside of chaos allows us to make better decisions in the midst of chaos.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Yeah. Strength is a gift from God. God has not called us to weakness, He's not given us a spirit of timidity, Paul would write, but of power, love, self-discipline. So strength is a gift, anger is a gift. It's gas, it's fuel for the fire when you need the fuel. But fuel out of control destroys. And I think you're exactly right. That doesn't happen in the moment in the split second.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

It happens when you're alone, in the quiet, in the dark. I mean, this kind of just like brings us into even another like facet of this. So like scripture says to love your enemies. Right? It's not that we're necessarily like it's not that we necessarily have these enemies, right? They're civilians, they're people, they're humans. But there are those situations where like this person is the epitome of evil. We are there on behalf of good. But just in general, right? Cops versus criminals, like, what does it look like to love our enemy? And obviously, I think we've already started to delve into this matter. Um, I think we can broadly, I think maybe just to summarize a point, is like we can kind of separate like actions on scene and actions like after actions, right? Like I think it's pretty rational that our human brain, when we're on scene, in the midst of it, not that we can't slow down sometimes and pray or think, but that we're in the midst of it on scene, right? A lot of times it's just we're just doing what we know how to do. But then there's also a matter of the heart that can occur after action that changes it. And so I'm just think of an example of like um, you know, again, I'm working on these things, right? These are some things that I've just tried to more recently incorporate into my job. Take a person to jail, maybe it's just a situation, this is the law, you're going to jail. Maybe try to hear their story on the way to jail a little bit, but not a whole lot of mercy. But then when I think of them post-incident, like trying to pray for them, right? We know as cops, right? It would be a very general summation, or they aren't going to change. That's our that's our go-to, right? They're just they're just turds that aren't going to change. We're going to deal with them tomorrow, just like we've dealt with them the last six years and we dealt with their parents and their parents. And but I think after action, like one of these matters of the heart, like what does it look like to love my enemy, right? If I need to defend myself so I can come home so my children have a father, I'm going to do whatever I need to do. But after the fact, praying for that person, praying for their repentance, praying that, and and it's probably not going to be us, right? I'd I've recognized over the years, like we have a place in criminals' journeys. A lot of times that's just taking them to jail, maybe so they can get services of probation or

Trusting God’s Vengeance And Judgment

SPEAKER_00 50:06

parole. And I know as cops, we all think those are all failures, and they they are very broken, they are very broken systems. But we have a place praying that other people, other organizations, other resources can step into their life that maybe they will see change, maybe that they will come to Christ, maybe they can't break the chains of generational criminal behavior and poverty and so on and so forth. And so I think there's a difference sometimes in how we handle this with trying to be a Christian on scene, right? Again, if we're spending time with the Lord, we're probably making those split-second decisions more aligned with him. But then post-incident, there's opportunities for us to live out these truths.

SPEAKER_04 50:55

I can't remember his name even, but that's fine. And I arrested him a couple times, I think twice. And I just, for some reason, whatever reason, I just was praying for this guy in my off time, right? It was just on my mind a lot. I ended up stopping him and arresting him again, and just like word vomit. I was like, man, like this really bumps me out, man. Like, I was really praying for you, and he just turns to me and was like, Well, you still can. And like stuck with me forever. I'm like, oh, like it doesn't just stop. I can continue. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Yeah, I think about like, you know, this idea of we have so many opportunities to pray for people, to be Jesus to people. They look different, right? It may not always be this face-to-face interaction, but I think about like some of the ops that we've planned, especially like operations that have extensive pre-planning. And like, I'm sitting, you know, and like this is new. I'm just figuring this stuff out, right? Yeah. This is not something I did five years ago, but in these, but as I'm trying to figure out, okay, how can I bring Jesus into this situation? And here we are, we've got this tactical problem at hand. We're pre-planning. Generally, you know, I'm sitting at my computer trying to think through overall team objectives and plans for whatever the tactical problem is. And like I've tried to force myself to like stop and pray for that person. Genuinely pray for their repentance. Genuinely pray that like I know who they are on this piece of paper. I know who I know them to be in person, maybe if I've had a previous interaction with them. But genuinely pray that between now and the kickoff of this operation when we kick their door in or whatever we do, that God has this miraculous encounter with them.

SPEAKER_04 52:57

Yeah, and I think it clears your mind too. You know, right? It's not like I'm gonna go deal with this extremely dangerous individual. It's like now I can just act on whatever occurs in the moment. It's a person. Every person can act violently or do something crazy, right? Like it makes it a lot easier, at least for me, right, to just to go into it with an open mind and just be able to react to whatever happens. And I don't have to sit there. Yeah, I don't have to sit there and think about every single thing that's gonna happen or could happen because I know this person, it's just a person.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Yeah, and I mean that's that's freed me up a lot from honestly, kind of this issue of feeling any guilt or feeling, did we do something wrong? It's like if given time, like again, it's a habit that's becoming newer in my life, and take time to pray for that person. We go on scene within the confines of reasonable force, we're working towards whatever the tactical objective is, and they vote, and very violent actions are taken against them. It's kind of over at that point, right if truly put into that perspective, like it

Do Not Be Overcome By Evil

SPEAKER_00 54:20

does allow you that opportunity to go in there, see chaos, see and do things that people are not used to doing, and go home and fall right to sleep, and not have to just carry the weight of those actions on your shoulders, but then, because right, our brains don't forget the things that we've seen and done, again, with reasonable force to go, okay, particular situation in my mind, they're no longer breathing air on this earth. I don't believe in like necessarily like this purgatory thing. I think one situation I'm thinking of, like I did pray one time for the person after the fact, after they were deceased. But then my prayers switched to their family, right? We did what we had to do, but I also acknowledge that there is a family that's now grieving. And so when I think of the situation, I'm not gonna dwell on it, I'm not gonna feel guilty. We had to do what we had to do in the given situation, and so now my prayers can turn towards that family that they would be comforted, that they would be strengthened, that they would come to a saving knowledge of Christ. I may have no part in that journey, they probably do not want to talk to us, but I can pray for them. And so, like, yeah, there's so many opportunities in law enforcement for us, even if it's in the confines of our patrol car at 3 a.m. to be Jesus for people. I almost think seeing lives of believers that I deeply, deeply admire and don't even know how I could ever be one, the difference is as I see their prayer life. And I think we negate how many mountains can be moved with prayer. And it's like if we do nothing else in our job, we were on scene, we knocked on a door, we walked into a house that no preacher, no normal person is ever going to walk through. If we do nothing else, like we can be Jesus to them in prayer. And God will move miraculously. That's just a cool like hope that we can walk away with. But like we can bring God's kingdom into that situation, even just by praying for them or their family or the situation in general, and then maybe just not doing anything else. And that's fine. I think if we understand prayer like we've done so much for them, because maybe they've never even, maybe I think this sometimes I'm like, maybe that person in that house, because they're three generations prior, not a single one of them believed in Christ.

Daily Practices: Abide, Pray, Discern

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Maybe that person has never been prayed for in their life. I think about what prayers have done like in my own life, and it's like, oh my goodness, like, what if I could just pray for that person? Like, how much if I truly believe in God and believe in the power of prayer, like how much that could do for them?

SPEAKER_03 57:54

Prayer changes things. But more than that, prayer changes us. And so that most heinous person, do I pray for him? Do I genuinely desire him to come to a saving knowledge of the truth? To to feast with him in heaven someday. Because if I don't, I'm missing out on the love, the enemy love. Pray for those who persecute you, scripture would say.

SPEAKER_04 58:30

Yeah, and I don't want to miss like it's we need to pray for people, but I don't want to miss the point of praying for ourselves, too. Because like we we also mean, we go everything all of these individual people's people go through, we go through all those individual things too, because we're there with them during that trauma to a point. And that's not the same, right? Like because they're they're living it every day and where they're in that moment. But it builds up over time. Like we need to pray for our mercy for ourselves too. I think that's overlooked a lot. Maybe like we're too strong or too tough, and we we don't want to talk about things, or it's just easier to drink than it is to talk to God and ask him to take that away from us. That's a struggle for a lot of people. Yeah. That's a struggle for me for a long time.

unknown 59:17

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 59:18

And who do you have praying for you? Like specifically, like who have you called into your group? Who have you raised up as your own prayer team to support you? Is forgiveness restricting justice?

SPEAKER_01 59:39

Is forgiveness offering?

SPEAKER_03 59:46

Is it less than what's needed? Is it is it minimizing the evil that someone's done? To to act generously towards someone like that, you're showing mercy towards that person. How is that just?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:04

So I feel like forgiveness, right? There's still a repercussion to that, right? Like if this person's sinful, hey man, like you know, I forgive you for what you did. But you still did it. There's there's still punishment for that. And somebody took that punishment, right? Christ did. It doesn't just go away. So I don't think it uh uh you know doesn't mean anything or like diminishes what took place. I think that we just forget that there was someone that was brutalized because of it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

Yeah, I mean it's certainly hard to like. You see that you see that seven-year-old girl. You see that wife. You see the look on the officer's face that had to take the shot. And that that suspect put them in that situation where they had to act. And like you had to broach this idea of forgiveness, I mean there's scriptures that talk about essentially there's some equation of my forgiveness is based on me forgiving others. And you see, I mean, you just see that man that did those things to that girl. And yeah, I think as cops, as humans, right? Outside of law enforcement, even. I think our fear in seeking forgiveness, as it's it's clear, it's clear in scripture, God calls us to forgiveness. And I think our fear in trying to go down that road, we're thinking about those victims. And it's like, I'm not gonna take away from the thing that that guy did because it's almost disgraceful to that person that they've inflicted whatever they've inflicted upon. But it does not appear that scripture supports that idea of forgiveness, right? That it forgiving someone of a crime, forgiving someone of the things they've done against you, it does not diminish that victim. Those are two separate entities. It appears that biblical forgiveness is simply that forgiveness is freedom. I I I don't have a particular verse for this, but like when I look at the scriptures, yes, I think God calls us to forgiveness because he did forgive us. And we'll dive into that here in a minute, but but I think also God, just I think of like the ver like John 10, 10, right? says that I have come to give life and life to the fullest. The way that I interpret that is yes, he comes to give us eternal life in heaven, but he also comes to give us this life abundance on this earth. God's not just like the church, and so it's so easy for oh, God's just this like heavenly spiritual thing that's worried about heaven and eternity. But God comes to, we know if we live out the truths of scripture, right, there's freedom in God's laws. And I think when it comes to this matter of forgiveness, God desires forgive us to be forgivers because of the freedom that it brings, right? I mean, if if I have, if I don't forgive this person, it doesn't matter to them, right? It's not that I have to sit here and this this dude's in prison the rest of his life because he did this, and I'm gonna like write him some letter. I have forgive you. No. But that I'm releasing from my heart and my mind this personal vengeance against this person that God is providing not through through forgiveness. God's just not, it's not that he's just providing forgiveness towards that person. He's providing this bear, this weight, this burden to be lifted from my shoulders as the one that's carrying around the hatred and the malice of of this person because of the evil things that they've done.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:35

So do you think there's like two kinds of forgiveness then? Like there's God's forgiveness, right? And then there's our forgiveness, which maybe is more just for us.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

I think though, I think when we dive into scripture, yeah, I think yes, but also like forgiveness is forgiveness. And so I think when we take that time to forgive a person, right, just like when we ask repentance for our own sins has to be genuine, that yes, we truly are forgiving that person for their actions, but I think the benefit of that seems to be the freedom that the forgiver receives. I think about, you know, just recent events to see Charlie Kirk's wife stand on a stage and say that she has forgiven the shooter. You know, we know someone personally that lost her husband in the line of duty. And I remember seeing her genuinely say that she forgives that person and the freedom that that must bring, the closure that that must bring. It does not bring her husband back.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

Yeah. I think it's all one and the same forgiveness, but I think it's because if we struggle to forgive, what we're struggling with is a lack of faith that God really is just. Because vengeance is mine, declares the Lord. And so if I truly believe that, I forgive and hand it into God's hands. But if I don't believe that, then I need to hold on to that. Because I can't forgive. Um man, I'd encourage, if that's a struggle for someone, to just read the judgment passages in Scripture. Noah, Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, um, where God judges. Um, I was thinking of 2 Peter, and he's writing and he's saying, Look, like, if the angels were kicked out of heaven, you think God doesn't have this? He's like, if if God destroyed all of Noah's world, you think he can't handle your situation? He says that if he turned Sodom into ash, he's not big enough for you. And then Peter says, This is chapter uh 2 Peter 2, he says that God will keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment. He knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, but he'll keep the unrighteous under punishment. Um, I think of Galatians where it says, Do not be deceived. God will not be mocked. Whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. So if I struggle with this forgiveness and how that forgiveness is going to free someone, the reality is I'm not freeing that person. I'm handing it into God's hand, saying, Look, vengeance is yours, but I want to walk in life and freedom. And so I think these two forgiveness are really one and the same. Um I refuse to let hatred rule my heart and mind, and I'm trusting that God is who he says he is.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:27

He is justice.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:38

Man, think of like Dathan and Korra, the ground opened up and swallowed him. Think about Ananias and Sapphira, they were struck dead in the moment. Like, that's the justice of God. Like, he can do more than I could ever do to bring justice. He'll do far worse.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:02

And I mean I think you know, just my cop brain, it takes me to asking these hard questions of like to what extent do I take forgiveness? I think about the officers all over this country that have lost brothers, sisters in the line of duty. Their memories, if they were on scene, are so graphic and horrible of how their brothers in blue died. And I don't want to minimize, right? Like, and I think we have to go back to the cross. And know that the God who is asking us to be forgivers is a forgiver himself, but he's not just this distant deity that just could that this is something, oh, it's so easy for him. He's God, it's not easy for me because I saw them breathing their last breaths. I think about God the Father, who had all power in the universe to stop the crucifixion and the murder, brutal murder of his son. And yet, out of his love for humanity, he allowed his son to be murdered brutally on a cross.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:53

Please the Lord to crush him, Isaiah would say.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

Like he knows the pain. God is the sympathizer, man. He can't, it's he's not sympathizing with us in law enforcement as this spectator, right? If we believe that God is omnipresent, he is watching not only after the fact, he's watching the moment that that child's violated. Because he loved his people and he gave them free will, and he gets to see that the evil choices that they've made. He knows the evil of this world, he lives it every moment of every day.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:32

And do we think that we hate that evil more than he does? Vengeance is mine, declares the Lord. And me and my little bubble that's protected and doesn't see this day to day. Like you guys get to see what God sees. Like he looks for a warrior to invite in and say, I need someone to stand for justice. I see that child violated, and I need you to be able to see them too. And so it's a hard calling, it's a high calling, but it's a calling from the father's heart that no pulpit can touch. He's actu asked you guys to look darkness in the face and do something about it. But because in his kingdom, children aren't violated. In his kingdom, spouses don't lose their husbands to injustice. Man, are you guys familiar with um the imprecatory psalms? Nope. You guys ever heard of these things?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:02

I never have.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:12

So uh imprecatory is just a fancy word that means to curse. Imprecation means to call down a curse, to curse for God. These are the passages like I've grown up in church. I've never heard a single sermon preached on these verses. Um let me give them some to you. Um uh prayers that would say, I want those children to be fatherless. I want that man's wife to be a widow. I want his name blotted out from the book of life. Like, wait, what? You pray like that? Um uh Psalm uh Psalm 137, this is a good one. Let me get to that one. All right, hear this one, right? Um daughter of Babylon, you devastated one. How blessed will be the one who repays you with the recompense with which you have repaid us? How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your infants against the rock.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:19

So you're gonna have people like me right now who are like, okay, now you have a contradictory lord, right? Yeah, and it it's just a misunderstanding, I'm sure, on my part, right? But like, explain that.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:32

Dude, that's why you guys need to wrestle with these things. Like, you can pray that if that blessed would be the one who seizes this wicked person's kids and dashes them into the rocks. Like, how do that that that blows up our box we put God in? Right? And if I struggle to forgive, it's because I gotta hold on to vengeance myself because I don't believe that there's a God who would repay evil for evil. I don't believe that there's a God who would kill all the firstborn sons in Egypt. And that seems drastic. You would do that until you remember the Egyptians were killing the Israelite sons. Moses had to be put in a basket. He was repaying what they were doing. Here's a good one. Psalm 139. Most of these uh most of these imprecations, these these curses, they don't happen like in a big spell. They like come out in a in a in a blurb. Like you're reading along and all of a sudden they said something was like, I didn't think we could say that thing. What are we what's going on here? Um so here's Psalm 139. Oh Lord, you have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down, when I rise up, you understand my thoughts from afar, you scrutinize my path, my line down, you know. You know the words I speak before I say them. Where can I go from you? You know, if I go to heaven, you're there. If I go to the grave, you're there. These are good, you know, nice psalms. Kind we quote, we kind we put on a greeting card, you know. You form my inward parts, you wove me together, you knit me together in my mother's womb. I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. I'm not trivializing these truths, but that's how we put God in this, and that's the God we Yeah, that's who I know. When I go to church, that's the God the preacher talks about. You saw my unformed substance substance in your book were written all the days that were ordained for me. All right, I'm gonna start reading Psalm 139, verse 17. How precious also are your thoughts to me, O God, how vast is the sum of them. If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand. When I awake, I'm still with you. Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God. Depart from me, therefore, men of bloodshed, for they speak against you wickedly, and your enemies take your name in vain. Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? Do I not loathe those who rise up against you? How? What? It doesn't fit in our box we put Jesus in. Oh, that you would slay the wicked. Like, how can we pray like that? If you want a boring prayer life, pray good prayers. Like the kind that you would pray in front of people. But if you want a real prayer life, pray real prayers. And what you guys see and what you guys wrestle with when a children when a child is violated. Do you take that rawness to the Lord? Do you know you're able to? That desire in your heart that says, I wish that dude was dead. I wish I could kill him. And then wait, I can't do that, God. Okay, you kill him for me, God. Like you can talk to God like that. So put that in the context of the psalm. You knew me before I was formed, you know every word from my mouth. Like God already knows those in your hearts, He knows that's in there. He knows every thought you're having. He wants to talk to you about it. So prayers are supposed to be transparent, not good, not clean. Um I see a lot of officers who turn to a substitute, a substance, alcohol, something to numb, something to dull, something to turn to in the midst of trauma and tragedy and justice. And they don't recognize that they're me to turn to the Lord with that. You can't substitute with something else what's meant to be given to God. He sees already, he knows already, that's what the Psalm's saying, and he just wants to hear it. So I'll finish the Psalm two more verses. I hate them with the utmost hatred. They have become my enemies. Search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me and know my anxious thoughts, and see if there be any hurtful way in me and lead me in the everlasting way.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:26

Yeah, I mean, I think if it takes me to the scriptures of do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. And right, that is the that's that's my story. That's so many officers' stories, like right. You play with fire, you're gonna get burned. I think it was Eisenhower that said the problem with defense is from is defending from within what you're trying to defend without. What does every cop say in an interview? I just want to help people. They have no idea the ride they're about to go on. They have no idea the interactions with the evil that they're gonna experience. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Right? I mean, I think of my own story, and I mean, I was a I was in ministry before this. Five, six, seven years down the road, you know, could drink bourbon with the best of them, was drinking every single night. I thought that's just normal. I'm a cop. I'm an experienced cop, and this is how you handle it.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:52

I think that's the root of it all is not knowing Jesus well enough. And when you start to know God for who he really is, you start to be able to trust, trust him with this.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:07

I mean, it's like the thing that we need most to not be overcome by evil is the Lord. But yet, because of the evil, these contradictions are constantly. It's like we think because we lack knowledge of scripture, we think there's no way that there could be any resolutions to these evil things that we see. And it's like that's a whole reason for you know, this platform in general is to dive into these answers because I know enough to know that there are answers, but daily have these tensions that keep me from taking these scenes and these calls to the Lord and trying to truly dig in and go, okay, this is my reality. There are truths in this book. There are there is a deeper understanding of God that I can acquire through being with him to understand that he understands these issues.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:18

Yeah, we've been talking through a lot of stuff, a lot of points here and there. Like, how do we how do we bring this home? How do we apply this? Um like if it's all just in our head and not in our hands and feet, what good is it? So, what can you do as an officer to implement some of these truths that we've been wrestling through?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:44

I feel like a lot of this will comes naturally if you have that relationship, right? But if you don't have that relationship, which is a takes a lot, right? You're you're married, I'm married. It's a lot of work, right? But in order to have that love and that relationship, and for that just to come naturally in the day-to-day, you gotta put time in. Like for me, anyways, if I don't put it in at the beginning of the day, it's not gonna go well by the end of the day. I'd have to have that foundation and base from the beginning. I can see it, I can see it in myself, I can feel it. Um I try my best every day to do that. I fail a lot, but uh you have to have that that relationship to work through that day and work through those problems.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:32

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that like that makes me think of like being with the Lord, right? It's not like every call, we're gonna go on some somebody's dog's barking complaint, right? We're not gonna necessarily insert Jesus into this moment, right? It's just just like there is cause and effect in the broader universe, right? Sometimes we're just doing our job. But when we're with the Lord, like what you're talking about, like we're spending time with Jesus, right, his voice, which is usually very soft, becomes more clear. And like in this profession, like that's like I think that's what I think of as like, all right, I need to be open to the spirit in the moments that God wants to use me in whatever way that may be. Because I think you know, a lot of times we are we're so dialed into the situation, it's like, but if I'm spending time with the Lord and I'm open to the Holy Spirit's leading, this guide that God gives us for those who believe. And I think it just broadens the horizons of like, okay, maybe this is just that day-to-day call, and we go there and we do it, and we it just is what it is. But then there's some other times where it's like, well, God wants to move in this situation, whatever that may look like, and like just being open to those things, and then again, going through you know, the after action of the more critical incidents, and just trying to sit down with God, knowing that he is a God who understands these things way more intimately than even we do, and being with him to process these things after action, you know, in this broader category of justice and mercy, I think that's one thing that we can walk away with is God desires. Yeah, I mean, what's so cool about God right? He knows these tensions. He wants to work in these moments. Like God's heart is for justice, his heart is for mercy. Without him, like we're never going to bring any resolution to these issues.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:16

Yeah, the resolution is a person. The resolution is a crucified savior who is resurrected. What you were sharing, Derek, I was thinking of John 15, where he says, Abide in me, Jesus says. And unless you abide in me, you can do nothing, no good thing. So if that re relationship isn't the foundation, of course there's not going to be any fruit. And I challenge anybody listening that um if you struggle to give mercy, have you actually experienced mercy for yourself? And maybe that's where they need to start. And then what you were sharing, Matt, you know that this tension is brought together into a person and he holds it perfectly. How well do I know him? And how much time am I spending with him? And then in the secret place, the after action that says, Lord, I I hate those who hate you, you know, like I hate these guys, Psalm 139. And then he says, Search my heart and know me. See if there's any unclean way about me. Like, have we made our hearts transparent before God? Because the Spirit will put his finger right right on the next right thing, right on where we have fallen short. Right on where we were right too. But it all comes to relationship with the perfect jest, the perfect mercy. The fullness of God was pleased to dwell in him. And then I'll make an application, you know, for the uh for the civvies in the world, the civilians. Um I was thinking of the proverb that says, uh, harsh word stirs up anger, but a gentle answer turns away wrath. And if someone gives me a harsh word, my wife, a family member, a co-worker, whoever, justice in me gives a harsh word back, but mercy in me gives a gentle answer back. I receive unto me that harsh word, and I take the weight of it. A very small picture of what crucifixion is. Because at the cross, who in all that scene was truly innocent? Jesus. And we say that's the justice of God right there. That the innocent one was being punished. And that's the call on us that we would come and die. Pick up your cross and follow him. So the call on us to walk in the Spirit, to walk in relationship with Him means it's a call to die to myself, to crucifixion, to not implement justice on my behalf, to implement justice on others' behalfs, but to receive injustice on myself. To have a harsh word spoken to me. That's just an application I'm wrestling with.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:51

Let's uh talked about a lot. Let's just go to the Lord in prayer and just ask him to help us in this area because we we're just men, right? God, we just thank you that you are who you are. God, that you are the teacher of this balance between justice and mercy for us, that you have modeled it perfectly in Christ. Lord, I just pray as men as we move forward throughout our life and the journeys and the experiences that we will walk through in the future.

Closing Prayer And Listener Challenge

SPEAKER_00 1:30:59

God, that you would even bring the acknowledgement of this tension to mind, God, that we can try to wrestle through your truce and look more like you as we go through our various professions and just our lives in general. God, we need your help. These are difficult things, these are at the core, at the heart of your being. You see everything that we walk through. God, when one hand would you allow us to understand our place in regards to justice and understand the love and the mercy that you call us to as well. God, that you supernaturally can work in our lives, in our personal lives, in our professional lives from call to call to call to call. God, to know how to bring your kingdom on this earth more and more. God, that you would shape us as husbands, as fathers, and everywhere from police officers to farmers, God, that you would shape us and mold us. We can't do it without you. We've acknowledged that these are super difficult areas for us to try to bring about answers to. We need your truths and scriptures. God, may we as men, because we sometimes would we think that going to you is some weak thing. Because who are we? We we're fixers, we're doers, we get the job done. But God, that we would understand our incompetencies and our weaknesses and humbly approach your throne. God, to be with you, to learn from you, to be empowered by you, to be strengthened by you, that we would get our courage, our truer courage from you, that we would get our wisdom from you. We just thank you, God, for who you are.

unknown 1:33:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:16

That you are a God who cares. That you are a God that desire, you could have been a deity off in no man's land, but you desire to be with even just me and even just Derek and even just Evan and even just every listener. And you want to give us life and life to the full. You want to give us eternal life to have a relationship with you. We just thank you, God, for who you are. Be with us as we walk forward trying to navigate this dilemma. We pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen. Well, I hope you guys got something from this. Um, we're just getting started, right? This is a new endeavor for us. We're not content creators, we're not podcasters, we're cops trying to figure all this stuff out. Um, but I've got a favor to ask you. The reality is that there are men across this country, medics, fire, police, military, that they need to dive into these things because they're struggling right now with some of these very issues and more. I can make the content, but to get it in the hands of the people that need it, that's up to you. That's your job. Um, I would highly, highly encourage you, if you could think of some people right now that maybe it's even a stretch of faith for you. Man, send them a link. Hey, just take a look at this. Um, whatever that might look like, like this is gonna be a grassroots organic law enforcement movement. That's that's it. The algorithm is not gonna be pushing this stuff out. But since I did mention the algorithm, I do want to explain a reality of that that I didn't understand until I start trying to dive into these issues. So by you subscribing, by you writing comments, by you liking things, um, the reality is is that that's what the machine looks for. I'm not a dude that comments much or likes or subscribes to very much stuff at all. I completely understand that. But the reality is that, like, if you think that this is beneficial content, um, if you can go down and just write a two-word review or a two-sentence review, subscribe to it. Obviously, that's gonna get you additional content. Um, but yeah, we're gonna we've got tons and tons and tons of content planned. Some of it's already filmed and and ready to rock. Um, but it's gonna be up to you guys to get this stuff out to the people that need it. Thank you.