Zach: From Meth to Redemption Pt. 1

A cop rarely gets to see a true turnaround, so when I realized Zach’s life had gone from repeat felon to five-plus years sober and rebuilding, I knew we had to record his story. We first met in the worst way: handcuffs, pursuits, search warrants and the daily grind of addiction on the street. Now we sit across the table and connect the dots behind the label of “tweaker” or “doper” and talk about what most people never see. 

Zach takes us back to an abusive childhood marked by poverty, fear and chaos, then walks through how anger and survival thinking shaped him into a violent kid chasing respect. We unpack early substance use, the jump from weed and partying to inhalants and pills, and how the opioid crisis can accelerate when prescriptions are easy and accountability is low. From the law enforcement side, we talk about why jail doesn’t always deter and how “humanizing the file” can change how first responders hold the line while still seeing the person underneath. 

Then the story turns darker: adult addiction, manipulation, and a moment of trauma in the NICU when his newborn fights to breathe. That pressure becomes fuel for relapse, and we get honest about enabling, boundaries and the brutal truth that you can’t save someone who refuses help. Part 1 ends right as everything starts to collapse, setting up Part 2 where we go deeper into crime, pursuits, treatment, recovery and how you rebuild a life after rock bottom. 

Subscribe so you don’t miss Part 2, share this with someone who needs hope, and leave a review to help more people find Obedient Warrior. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Well,

Future Format And Interviews

SPEAKER_01 0:08

welcome back to Obedient Warrior. I just want to take a moment to kind of explain some future format stuff. So we're going to continue to do the episodes like we've been doing, but then from this point forward, also going to introduce interviews into the mix. Primarily have a focus on first responders. So police, fire, medics, maybe even military guys. But we want to get people's stories out there because there's just a reality. I know for me in my own life, when I look out onto somebody's life and I see how they dealt with certain obstacles and certain challenges and just whatever it may be, there's so much power in people's stories. And for me, that's done so much in my own life to hear guys, you know, just talk about life and their career and their personal life and their family and their upbringing and the challenges ultimately that they have faced. So we are going to from here forward kind of occasionally introduce interviews into the mix. And with that being said, if you know someone, particularly in the first responder community, like I said, maybe even military community that has a story, you can reach out to us. You know, obviously, as long as they're they're willing maybe to do something like that. I know that's kind of a step of faith for a lot of people. Uh, but you can reach out to us info at ObedientWarrior.com. Also hit us up on Facebook through Messenger. Um yeah, so we'll continue to do the episodes like we've been doing, but also introduce uh interview story format episodes into Obedient Warrior.

Meeting Zach Through Police Work

SPEAKER_01 1:45

And so today's interview is a little unique, it's a little bit outside of that first responder format. Um, however, this is a story I absolutely could not pass up the opportunity to sit down with Zach, as you will see and hear his story. We met when uh I was putting him in handcuffs and chasing him around, um, you know, vehicle pursuits and search warrants and all this kind of stuff. And so I've been a cop for so long, and I cannot think of any other actual true like story of redemption that I've been able to witness firsthand because it's so rare and it's so unique. Um especially you cops, you know, you know that. And so took this opportunity to sit down and just lay his life out, you know, some curiosity stuff, right? We get to see, you know, tweakers and dopers and stuff on a daily basis, but to hear it from their side and then to see how God truly, you know, redeemed him, redeemed his family, redeemed his relationships, his vocation, all this, you know, from multi-time convicted felon to a guy that that me and the officers I work with regularly interact with on the other side of the law, and get to know him now as a as really as a friend. Um, so such a unique story, and I hope you guys enjoy it. So let's just start here. I mean, I first I appreciate you being here. Like I'm so thankful for you doing this, and now you're taking time out from your family and life in general, and um I th I think you know, the biggest saying is like I've been a cop for 15 years. Yeah. I can't think of a single person that I've dealt with on the streets that like I would invite into my own home to sit down. Like, yeah, I mean, it just it, you know, and there'll be cops and people that listen to this, like they'll be they'll been a cop for 30 years and they won't have one face and mind of somebody that they would invite over to their house to sit down and talk to them. Um it's just such a a rare opportunity. And like, I just wanted to capture this, capture your story.

Childhood In Poverty And Chaos

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Um why don't we I know we had an opportunity, you know, a week or so ago to sit down a little bit um and kind of talk, but let's go back to like childhood. Like, what is what does childhood look like for you?

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Uh so I was uh I think my parents were together. I'm pretty sure, yeah, they I'm pretty sure they were together when I was born, but they split at such a young age that I don't even remember them being together. Um they were married, I I can't even tell you how long they were married, but I've always been in a a a divorce. Um I don't even remember the divorce or anything like that, but then I moved. And I would say the the moment that I can remember memories at such a young age, my mom was with um her boyfriend that she was with, I think, I mean, for a while. Um and it wasn't wasn't the best upbringing, I would say, wasn't the best situation. Uh we were in I think like a single-wide trailer. Uh just your your typical, you know, rough trailer, rough area, rough little neighborhood that I was in. So, you know, our electric didn't work the best. There's our water didn't work. We'd have to go to the neighbors with milk jugs and fill them up and come back. Cockroaches were like our number one pets. Um, and I just say that because we had like, so there was three of three of us boys in there. Okay. My mom, her boyfriend, and then we had five dogs and I don't know, maybe 10,000 cockroaches with us. So it was a busy house. Uh but yeah, it was it was a little rough. I would say that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

True. So would like so three brothers, where do you fall into that?

SPEAKER_04 6:05

Uh I am the there's actually there's five of us on my dad's. So there's two that my dad had uh prior to my mom. Okay. So there's three full. There's three of us. I am the youngest of all five, to be honest. But um the three full, I mean, uh, yeah, they're the ones that at the beginning we all lived together, but it didn't last long. My my one brother that is older than it'd be the middle one out of the three of us, he moved to dad's, and then later on, my oldest brother out of the three of us moved to dad's too. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

So, like, would you say I know you mentioned mom's like boyfriend, was that were the were boyfriends kind of rotating in and out, like men rotating in and out?

SPEAKER_04 6:58

Not at that time. Okay. I mean later on, yeah. Um, but I was also at like the innocent part of life, or I didn't quite understand. Obviously, now that I'm an adult, I can probably put two and two together, but at the time it was just one. Um, they were together till I think from when I was in a baby to third grade, second grade, somewhere around in there.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Do you feel like obviously? So you mentioned you know getting water at the neighbor's house. Yeah. Did you guys I can't remember do you guys say that you had electricity or did not have electricity? Uh we did. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

It was just it was a junk trailer. I'm not gonna lie. It was it was rough. Uh it's actually not even there. It was it must have got torn down, I don't know, maybe four years ago, but it was super cool to like drive by, show my oldest and stuff like that. It was like, hey, check this out. Like, it's pretty wild. What was that like? Uh, I mean, no, I it would it it is wild to think of where I was and where I am today, but I think it would be a different experience because obviously in the time that I was taking him, I wasn't who I am today. Okay, I think if I could take him now and he could see that, then it would it would mean a little bit more to me and probably even to him of just how good life is. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, it was the the water thing is is funny because my kids now complain about the little chores they had. Sure. And there there could be four foot of snow out and and the parents got to stay inside warm. We were the ones that walked. I don't know, maybe I don't know, 50 yards, 60 yards to a house and fill up from their water. You know, we'd each I was the youngest one, so I only had two. And then my oldest brothers, they would have maybe carrying three, and then you know, so on and so on. But yeah, doing that at you know, nine o'clock at night, pitch black, freezing cold, and you're trying to carry water, so yeah, you can start your actual chores.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

So obviously, like what I would think of as like a lot of instability. Um, was there anything stable like around you or in the household that you felt like you could at least kind of cling to?

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Uh I would say my brothers. Okay. For sure. Whether it was like, I mean, there's probably at the time I could cling to my mom. That was the one that I felt like when the abuse got a little out of control, she would like I always remembered she would speak up, you know. So it was like a little bit of I never clinged to him. It was my mom or my brothers. Yeah. Uh my grandparents were something that was a positive thing. Now I didn't get to go there much.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Were they in that area?

SPEAKER_04 10:00

Oh, yeah. Okay. Um, maybe five, ten minutes away. Okay. Um, in uh just a neighboring uh town. But yeah, they were super positive. Like I'd go to my grandpa's and um he was into little motors, and that basically is what started my thing here of you know, my career is I'm a mechanic now. Uh I've been working on things since I was a young kid, and that's basically I feel like is where it started.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:28

But yeah, I would I would say I I had tons of things to cling to and think were positive at that age. Now that I am, you know, the age I am today, and I look back and it's like, eh, it's pretty, pretty wild the things that I probably did cling to or thought was okay. But I would say the the way of living were was way different back then than it is today.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Yeah. What were some of like your earliest memories that stand out?

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Uh it's usually has to do with like like pain, like getting messed up, yeah. Yeah. Uh I would say, I don't know, I remember so much of the the the crazy thing is I remember all the wild things. Okay. Like I don't remember really a lot of good. Uh which which is crazy to think. Like, you know, we would maybe go to McDonald's. That was like the you know, hoorah of yeah, like a big event. Yeah. So it was but the memories are of like my brothers. Basically, I was the youngest of three, so I got torn up. I mean, just absolutely torched.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:38

Uh there was times like like I remember uh we were BB guns, we were running around. Uh my brothers would lock me out of the house and make me crap my pants because I couldn't catch them. They're like, hey, you can't go inside and go to the bathroom uh until you catch me. And there's times where uh they'd have BB guns tell me go run or they're gonna shoot me. So I was hiding behind this one time I was hiding behind this dog uh house or whatever, and they were just like teeing off on me on these BB guns, and one shot me right in the back and stuck me. And they, you know, they would pick it out or whatever. And there was one time they're like, hey, you know, go down across the yard and I I I promise I'll just one pump you. You know, we had these little Ruger guns or whatever they were, little red man guns or something. He's like, Yeah, well, he pumped it once in front of me, but he already pumped it about 30 times when I wasn't watching. Yeah, so man, dude, smoked me with that BB gun. But there was just, I mean, multiple times of uh just getting messed up, really. I mean, they would there's times where we would play monkey in the middle, like because there was no babysitters. I remember some babysitters coming in and out, but it got to the point where basically our our parents at the time would dip off and we're just home. We'd just hang out in the little area that we were in. Uh, but we were playing monkey in the middle one time, and obviously I was always in the middle. I finally get out, and I'm like, yes, I remember being so excited to get out. Well, I can't remember which one was in the middle, but I know I was super stoked. I was like, Yeah, you know, I'm part of the team now. Hey, I throw this football as hard as I could. And we're we're playing in a single wide uh hallway. Okay, it's like maybe, I don't know, two and a half foot wide, three foot wide. I don't know if you I mean you've been in a single wide, so it's like shoulder to shoulder. And uh there's a room in the center, and then my parents' room are at the rear, and then the front room was on the other end. So I get this football and I just launch it as hard as I can. The one brother dipped into the bedroom, the other jumped on the ground, and this ball goes straight through my my mom's uh all-glass carry cabinet. Okay, shatters, and and it was obviously intentional. Yeah, uh, and they weren't home, and I remember just standing there like deer in headlights, and then I just start screaming, like because I know I was I was in some big trouble when they got home. Yeah, but yeah, I definitely remember that's it's usually like messed

Violence At Home And Fear

SPEAKER_04 14:20

up stuff. Like I got messed up most of the time.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

So you mentioned abuse there. Like what what did that look like?

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Uh so weapons. Uh there's times to where like extension cords, fan belts off cars or lawnmower, stuff like that, paddles with holes drilled in them. Uh and there weren't like when I mean whippers, I'm I'm talking about like grown men just reaching back and just hammering somebody. Uh there was times where I remember like all three of us brothers, we're like, oh man, we're all cooked, we're getting we're getting whipped. And um he would come home and he would literally like go to the bathroom or go to the bedroom, get off his work clothes, all right, boys, you're gonna line up, you're gonna get it. And like we know we are, so we'd all go to the bathroom. And I remember like memories with just both of them. We're like trying to stuff each other's pants with toilet paper because we know what's coming. And there was a time to where we got busted doing that, and then it was just all downhill from there, because then it was just you know, bare cheeks from there. Sure. But yeah, no, it was it a whipping today to me is way different. I mean, just draw back as far as he would and just hammer you, and it wouldn't just be one, it would be three, four, five, however many, and we could never figure out in line where do you want to be. Usually you don't want to be the first one, and that's where I was because that's just he's got he's ready to rock at that point.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

And do you feel like you know, when I see kids that are in like abusive situations and stuff, or even wives as well, you know, like just had someone the other day, you know, domestic violence situation, and they're like, I just never know like what's gonna set him off. Is it kind of like that feeling? Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

There, I mean, there was obviously I'm not there was things I did intentional that I knew what was coming, but this is this is the part of like how deep I was into it to where I knew what was coming. If I got caught, I just didn't like them. So it was like I'm doing it anyways. But there's days to where like how me and you would have mood swings or hey, you know, we're a little grumpy today. Well, when you're in an abusive situation and they're a little grumpy that day, you're getting it. I mean, there's nothing, there's no right thing that you could do to somebody that is an abusive mindset because you're walking on eggshells and they're the ones that's gonna predict how your day's gonna go. You're not predicting how their day's going. And that's that I mean, that's the messed up part about it. And I don't know if it's like a I feel like the same as because most of the time it's it's men hitting the women, not all the times. I've I've known situations where it's the other way around. Normally it's the men on the women thing. I get that, but I feel like it's similar to a parent doing it to the child and it's a power trip. Like, you know, you have authority over somebody, you're bigger, you're badder, you know, not thinking the fact that, hey, this person is six years old. It's like it's like I have four kids. I have a six-year-old about to be seven. I cannot picture me or even thinking, like, hey, you know, come in here, get ready, get a whooping, me just draw back as hard as I could and just crack them.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

I mean, that just to me, I can't, I can't wrap my mind around that. Um, even even in the bad life that I've lived and stuff, that's just it's just don't make no sense to me. Yeah. Was your mom getting beaten and stuff too? Yeah. There there was times where like I remember mom would be like, hey, you know, you're getting whipped when he gets here. But there's always, I can't remember where the fine line was. It should have been, hey, they've had enough after the first crack, you know, or like, hey, don't crack them like that. But I I remember multiple times to where he's just like, like anybody that has anger problems or abusive where they lose control. They can. It's very, it's very easy to do. Um, but he would, and she'd be like, All right, all right, they've had enough. That's enough. And he'd basically tell her shut up or she'll get it. And there's times where she did get it. Uh but I mean, I mean, I remember there's times, craziest thing is I can't imagine. I just I just always, now that I have kids, I always put myself in their shoes and how I was feeling at that time. I can't imagine my kids going through that. But there was times where like he would just lose it and start beating everybody in the house. And one time he he be he was beating my mom and beating us, and basically we ran to the house that we'd always get water from. And we were, I mean, all three of us. I think it was all three boys. I'm pretty sure. I'm not, I can't remember how many of us. I'm I'm pretty sure it was all three of us and my mom. I mean, we're running out of our own house that we're supposed, you know, we live in from one person. And I remember running down, so we lived kind of at a top of a hill, and you'd kind of like transition and then down further to where that person, the other house was. I remember we were running there, didn't know if they were home, didn't care. Barged straight into their house. Nobody was home. I mean, we're running through the house. I remember obviously I'm the youngest, I'm so I'm the slowest. I don't think they really cared whether I made it there or not because we we run in this house, those three run into the bathroom, slam the door, lock it, and I start beating on it. Let me in, let me in, let me in. Well, he's like hot on our tail at that point. And I remember they never let me in. So I ran to another bedroom that was around an open door kind of concept. There was no door, it was just a wide open area. I remember right hiding behind that and behind these curtains. I'm just sitting there and I can hear him just banging on the door, trying to get in, let me in, you know, I'm gonna kill you, all this stuff. You know, trying to find me. I think I I think he heard that I wasn't in there, but I can hear him ruffling through stuff and and just like a man on a mission to really cause some pain. But yeah, that was that was one time that I remember um where like we were all getting it at once.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Did you ever have a time like at a certain age where you felt like maybe that wasn't what was happening in all of your friends' homes?

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Um there were so I didn't really have friends, I guess, growing up. Like there was people I don't know, the judgmental obviously would come in like judging. Uh like my school pictures was dirty clothes. I mean, you can see them in our my school pictures, dirty clothes, hairs jacked, had a mullet, uh, shoes that were twice as big because they were from my oldest brother, but new to me. So there's always I didn't have like friends that had any other kind of upbringing than what I did. Uh there was we kind of stayed to friends in uh our little area. I don't even know I don't even know what you call that area. I grew up.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Just a small town.

SPEAKER_04 21:48

Yeah. But yeah, there was I mean, there were kids beside us that probably got it just as bad, maybe a little worse. I'm not really sure. Uh but it was normal, like we would laugh. At them when they're getting their tails whipped, and they'd laugh at us when you know, because we would get it in the front yard. Yeah. I mean, there was no shame in uh what they were doing. I mean, but we would laugh at each other, but I didn't know any other way. So uh the the lives that we live today, uh they weren't even a dream because they I never knew about them.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah.

Silence And No Police Involvement

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Were the police involved at all? No. No. Just kind of that don't call, nobody's not even thinking about it.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

Oh yeah, you you didn't even and the wild thing is obviously I was raised to, you know, not be a rat, don't tell, you know, what's going on at home. If somebody asks, I'm okay, you know what I mean, kind of life. Because any any child should obviously bring that to somebody's attention right away. Um, I would never. Uh just because I don't know if it was implanted in my head at the time that things aren't nothing's gonna happen, and then when I get home, I'm getting whipped even harder. Obviously, I would say it's fear uh that if I tell that I gotta live there and I'm gonna get it worse. I would imagine. I mean, it's hard to tell what was going through my head at that age, but I would imagine it was beaten into me to not say anything. I mean, there was times where I didn't go to school because I was, you know, whipped so hard. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

As you got older, um again, I'm not, you know, I've never been in those shoes. Yeah. So I'm just like thinking back. Do you did you ever have times where like you kind of blamed maybe other people in your life for not protecting you?

SPEAKER_04 23:47

Uh yeah, for sure. Well, not at the time. Uh I would say now, because I'm mature, I can understand, I can process feelings. I've I've gone through an enormous amount in in a lifetime that I've I've lived. But I would say, yeah, my father, uh, because I'm such a protective person. Um, like there was no way I would ever let anyone do that to my kids. So your biological father. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

So you feel like he knew what was going on.

SPEAKER_04 24:18

Oh, we've told him before. Maybe maybe not uh as serious. I don't think he he knew how serious it was. But I do remember we did tell him, like, hey, you know, and he called my mom and be like, hey, you I don't understand why, you know, he's whipping them or putting his hands on my kids and all that stuff. And basically my mom, you know, probably told him, you know, screw off or whatever. She had custody at that time. But he was he was a good dad, never raised a hand, scream ass is all he would do, didn't have much rules, but his you know, the the life that he had, he worked for the city for you know, like 35, 36 years. He had a a nicer home, nicer living, uh not as wild or you know, abusive, none of that stuff. But yeah, see him very often every other weekend. I did. Uh so it was like a vacation, you know, you get out of there, but man, it's time to go home Sunday. But the the crazy thing is like I mean, I did enjoy where I was. That's what's wild is um the craziness. Because it's all you knew, yeah. Yeah. Like I wasn't like every time I went to my dad's, please don't take me back home. Uh I was never like that. I mean, I did in later in life.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

I was like, dude, I don't Yeah, I mean I you kind of said that earlier, but like that's all you knew. Like, I think about I remember one time, you know, my kids were, you know, probably just a couple years ago, so my kids are old enough, you know, to communicate and we've got this relationship and service search one on a house. Like, you know, we're there, we're in force in number, it's loud, it's chaotic. And get inside, and this kid's on his is on the couch, on his phone, playing a game. Yeah. Never even looked up at me. Yeah. I'm just like, you know, obviously we'd been to that house so many times, but it was like, yeah. Well, it was just normal for that kid. Yeah, for sure. And he has no understanding of what life could be like. What did you see any substance abuse in the house?

SPEAKER_04 26:30

Uh I knew like they would always go to their back room, or uh I don't, I don't know how what drugs they were using, but I knew they were using for sure. Uh, because there was like us growing up, is we were forced outside. It was go play. And I mean, we ran all over our neighborhood. We were in the woods, we were riding logs down the river, down this little waterfall. I mean, we were doing some stuff that there's no way I'd let my kids out. I don't let my kids leave my yard. And uh, but yeah, there was definitely drugs have always been a part of my life. Always. Any alcohol mixed in there with oh yeah. Yeah. Uh there was a time where mom got smacked by a train uh leaving leaving a place and just blew a T. Somehow made it up on this track. So it's like, dude, if you've seen it, it's like, dude, a four by four wouldn't get up there. Somehow she got up there and teetered it, got out of the car, and then the train wiped out the car. And I think like all of our Christmas stuff was in it, so we didn't get Christmas. Like Christmas to us and stuff was like churches dropping stuff off, our grandma. That that was what Christmas was about. But yeah, partying, big scene. I mean, we would go to like um to neighbor's house and stuff, like people drinking, hooting and hollering, riding four-wheelers, drunk. I remember this one. Uh, we went to a Halloween party. This guy's on this four-wheeler with a little wagon, little yard wagon. There's I don't know, there's probably seven, eight of us kids. Kids are on the four-wheeler, on the front rack, on the rear rack, all in the thing. And this airhead goes up and he's intoxicated, tries to go up this steep hill in like third, fourth gear. What bogs down? There's no power. So, because he's just putting. We get about halfway three-fourths up this hill. This dude tries to roll it back instead of just holding on the brakes and and letting everybody off, jackknifes it, flips every one of us out of that. Just, I mean, and that was part of it. It wasn't like, oh man, don't let my uh don't let my kid in that, you know, that no, you know, don't be around that. No, that was just normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They would be out partying, and they would always go in this garage. Obviously, it was drugs, uh, but they would always go in there. We'd have to be out in the yard partying. There could be like six different families show up at the same time. And we'd they would always go in there, never even knew what the inside of that place looked like. But I've been there a million times. Never knew what was in that garage. Uh, because you weren't allowed there. Um, so I don't know. Who knows what was going on in there, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Yeah, it always does amaze me to like, and honestly, it's even a smaller percentage of like kids in the houses. So if we go to a hundred houses, I might find five houses like this. But you see the kids, you see a four-year-old and having a four-year-old, and then you see this kid, he acts like he's 12. Yeah. Because he's lived so much life, he's had to figure life out on his own. He's had zero supervision, so like he learned how to don't cross the street without looking on his own, kind of thing. Yep. Um so, like, kind of this phase of that we've kind of been talking about here. Like, what's kind of the next phase that you remember? Is it junior high? Is it high school? Is it what's what's it look like?

Homelessness And Carrying Mom’s Weight

SPEAKER_04 29:58

Uh I would say the next phase was like mom eventually did leave him. Okay. Um, but there was a time in that period to where I believe she she did leave him. We moved to a town that's probably maybe 20 minutes away, 30 minutes away. Okay. Uh so we moved there, but there was a time, and in that transition, we moved to that house. There was a couple of times where we were basically homeless. No place to sleep. I remember, you know, sleeping in a truck, and that's when so well, back it up. So um I would say before my mom left him, my middle brother left, went and moved and lived with my dad. Um, and he always, you know, he was getting all the Xboxes, PlayStation, cool stuff like that that we never got. And then, but when she left him, then my oldest brother dipped out. So it was just me, uh, about third grade. And that's basically when we became homeless sleeping in a vehicle. My oldest brother said, I'm out, I'm going to my dad's. Um, and I think I think at the time I was scared to leave my mom because here she is, you know, she was in an abusive area. I'm not saying what she did or allowed to have done to us was okay because it wasn't. But there was some part of me that I didn't want to leave my mom because I thought she would kill herself. Uh, I mean, she ain't got nothing else to live for. Um, and she would always kind of tell me that, like, you're all I got. Um, I don't know what I would do if I didn't have you. I wouldn't be here if I didn't have you, just kind of stuff like that, which I would imagine at a young age. I don't know if it was manipulation or I I don't know. I don't know her probably both, right? Yeah, yeah. I don't know her tactics behind it.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Uh so this is third, third, fourth, fifth grade.

SPEAKER_04 31:51

Yeah, this time for this is like uh leaving second, going into third. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

So what was that like? I mean, if you you even can remember, like what was it like to carry the weight? Like you're right here, you know, grown man saying, Yeah, and I didn't didn't want my mom to kill herself. So I stayed.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

It's heavy. I still carry weight. I've I've always been, I don't know if it I think it's a lot of it of what I've been through, but I've always worried about other people. I would rather take the beaten than my brothers. I would rather take the pain and the heartache and the stress than anyone else around me. I've always been that guy. Uh, but it's always been heavy, like, because I don't I don't know what how else to live. I've lived at it at such a young age, like you said, you see this four-year-old that acts like a 12-year-old. Uh, I tell my kids all the time, man, at your age, I was doing this, I was doing that. But now that I sit back and think about it, like I shouldn't have been. Like you, you should just be your age and have fun and be a kid and don't worry about nothing. Uh, but yeah, it was, I mean, I would say looking at it now, I felt, you know, probably trapped or forced to we know such a heavy thing of it would be my fault if I left and my mom died. Um, so I never I never did leave her until like I think when I was 16, maybe 15.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

So here you guys are in this kind of living out of a car. What's that look like?

SPEAKER_04 33:20

Uh I remember it wasn't long. We didn't live out of it long, but I remember like, you know, our cars growing up didn't have heat. Like we'd use this little cigarette thing and then throw the little portable heater, be scraping windows on the way to school. Uh, but I remember like a couple times, like, I I took showers and stuff and did the old sink washes and subways. Yeah, because the area we were in, that's really all we had. I mean, it wasn't it wasn't long, but yeah, I remember it.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Were you were you in school at this time? Were you skipping school?

SPEAKER_04 33:53

Were you I was I already left the school that I was at prior and I was in a newer school. Well, basically what happened was my mom moved in with this friend, and it kind of just went south, and then we were like we were, you know, screwed, didn't have anywhere to go.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Um, but yeah. So then eventually she was she working at all at that time? Yeah, she was always she's always been a worker.

SPEAKER_04 34:21

I just don't I don't know where the money went, to be honest. I don't know. Maybe it was hard. I don't I I really can't speak for that. Um I don't think sh I don't know. I can't even say I don't think she was in drugs because I really don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Um we'll kind of come back to this area here, but like what's what's your relationship with mom look like now?

SPEAKER_04 34:43

Uh it's it's good. Like I love my mom. Yeah. Um I wish our relationship was a little bit better. I wish we could talk about like, you know, the the past, and I hate where she's at in life at the age she is. I wish she was a lot further, or you know, because she's single, lives by herself, you know, works a factory job. There's no end game for her, you know, there's no retirement or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

So, like obviously, and we you know, we'll get to these parts of your story, but you know, you've lived in the the trenches of society, right? That's where you and I met, and and yet you now you've seen a different side. So, like looking back to your mom when she's driving you around in a car and you guys are scraping windows, like what would you today want to say back to that person?

SPEAKER_04 35:40

Uh I would say it like back to me as a person or to my mom.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Yeah, to someone that's like in that type of situation.

SPEAKER_04 35:48

I don't know. I wish I wish she would uh use the help that she had, because I had grandparents, had great grandparents with a home, everything like that, you know, aunts, uncles, or something, you know, or I would imagine she made some poor decisions that led us there. Um I think I constantly say I guess she she did the best she could in the situation that she was in, or the person that she is. Um because there's always things that me personally I could look back and be mad and be like, why did you allow that to happen? Why didn't you get help? Why didn't we do this? Or why didn't we go here? Um but I I think I don't know. I I think she I think she did the best she could at that time. Yeah. Um I I can't really I guess get mad at her for it. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

So like you guys then eventually get a place. What's that kind of next phase of of life?

SPEAKER_04 36:51

So we uh she got an apartment above this restaurant, and uh from what I can remember was nice. Like we didn't have much furniture. I had my own room,

A Safer Father Figure Arrives

SPEAKER_04 37:02

stuff like that. My brothers didn't, they weren't coming to visit or anything. It was just basically me and my mom. Um I would still go to my dad's every other weekend kind of stuff, but uh yeah, and then she ended up meeting a new guy, and that was like super awesome. I I felt like, you know, at the time, it was um a different life, I guess. Not a not abusive, not no, no. I mean, they would fight, they would scream and all this stuff, but he'd he's never raised a hand to me, he's never raised a hand to my mother, as far as I know, um, but wasn't like the most faithful guy uh to my mom. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

So all this kind of chaos, instability, you know, is going on. You still have your mother through you know these times of life, but like yeah, at what point maybe did you start kind of acting out or getting in trouble, or did you at that young age?

SPEAKER_04 38:09

Uh at the young age, I've always been uh, as I would say, hell on wheels. Like, you know, all the times my brothers messed me up, I I got them back too. Like, you know, I've boiled water and stuff and waited until they got in the shower and opened that shower and gave them boiling water. There's I mean, I didn't let them get away with what they did. I would just take it. And I would say like I was molded to a very mean person at a young age. So by the time my mom got with this guy that wasn't abusive, I was already a pretty mean, mean guy. Uh middle school, I was super bully, like just was a mean kid. Um, but yeah, I would I would say for sure, I would lash out. I mean, so she got with him when I was in the third grade, somewhere around there, fourth grade, super awesome guy. Like, taught me, you know, he would play catch. Uh, I've never even played catch with my own father. Uh went to every one of my sports because my mom worked seconds, so she and he worked thirds. Um so he would go to all my sports, take me. Uh super, super. I mean, a dad that I never had. Yeah. Um, we'd work on hot rods, stuff like that. He'd teach me about nature, and because we lived out in the country at that time, just surrounded by cornfields. Um, so like the way of living was, you know, whatever. Yeah. I mean, the wood burner is how we heated our house, but there was it's funny because there, I mean, there was holes, our plumbing sucked, water, still doing dishes out of tubs, uh didn't go into my bedroom in the winter because snow would come in the wall, and I'd have like little snow drifts. But yeah, I would I would say lashing out 100%. Um, I mean, I was doing some crazy stuff at that age.

Weed Sales And School Expulsion

SPEAKER_04 40:03

I would say sixth grade, uh, got expelled for selling weed on the school bus. It was actually ditch weed. I never I kept the good stuff and would sell these. Uh at least you weren't dumb about it. Yeah, yeah. I did I did give them some real seeds. Yeah. Like uh, so I'd sell them. I just did. I was around it. I mean, the company kept coming and going, you get kicked out of the house. It's you know, it was just weed, uh, as far as I know. But yeah, the that was big. I remember going through like uh they did swap meets and stuff like that, and I'd and they would pay me to unload the trucks, these U-Haul trucks. And I remember opening these bins, and dude, they would be stacked with marijuana. Yeah. And that's basically how I'd do it is I'd take some, and we lived in the country, so ditchweed looked pretty similar, and I'd sell it to these kids that absolutely had no idea what the stuff was. And I remember I sold it to this one kid, lived a little bit f further down the road than me. Uh parents, health freaks. I mean, I've been to his house, health freaks, nicest house I've ever been in. And this airhead uh takes what I sold him. I think I sold it to him for CDs or something. I don't know what it was. It was silly. But he rolls it up in line paper because he's asking me. I'm like, hey, you you know, you roll it up at sixth grade. I already knew how to roll a joint. I knew what drugs were, I knew how to smoke it. Uh, I already tried it, you know. Um, but I was like, oh, you you know, you just put a little in paper and roll it up and lick it and you smoke it. And we're sitting there, and what he did was roll it in line paper. Well, obviously, I didn't, I I guess I didn't explain it enough. So he rolls it up in a house, non-smokers, health freaks in his bedroom, rolls ditchweed, it's not even real, so it's gonna burn and smell, rolls it up in line paper and lights it on fire, and it just obviously burns into a bonfire. Well, they come down, and my parents basically my mom's boyfriend knew, but my mom like believed what I said, but they came down and they're like, Hey, you know, we got something to talk about. Your son sold my son drugs, and they said, Oh, yeah, well, let me see it. So they show him. I remember I was on the porch and they show him this bag, and they're like, he sold him this. It's marijuana. And I remember my uh mom's boyfriend at the time grabs it, looks at it, opens it, and he says, That's not marijuana, it's ditchweed. He said, We didn't sell it to you. And my mom's like, you know, and they get all defensive. Sure. Well, they had the bag of seeds too, those were real. Uh, I don't know why I gave it to him. Yeah, uh, maybe put it out in his parents' garden instead of you know, tomatoes, grow some plants. But my mom's boyfriend seen that and he knew those where those came from because it was hers. Yeah. Uh but my mom never always believed me that I didn't do it, didn't do it, ended up getting expelled. Well, it's like three months or whatever, half the year I got expelled. Um, ended up getting alcohol poisoning because I would go to my older brother's house, and and I'm not kidding you. I remember I think I stayed there for a week, maybe, and I'm not kidding you for the entire week we smoked every single day. There was days that we smoked from the time we got up, never turned the light on, and next thing we know, you know, it's dark. Yeah. Uh got alcohol poisoning. I mean, this is all sixth grade. So what, sixth grade? I'm twelve years old, eleven years old, somewhere around there. Thirteen, maybe. I think it was twelve. But you know, as a twelve year old, I get expelled for Selling drugs at school.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

And then why I'm expelled for selling drugs at school, I go stay with my older brother and get alcohol poisoning. Yeah. And yeah, it's just it's wild.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

So, like you so mom and new boyfriend are like selling weed, you're saying, or uh just getting a bunch of it, or I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 44:23

I think they they were were tangled in maybe uh I don't know what what they were doing. I don't I don't know if they were selling it. I don't think. Uh we just had traffic constant and it was like hot rod buddies, you know, because we had a lot of hot rods, uh just old school rods we would build and stuff like that. I think they would just come over. I don't know, actually. Probably.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Yeah, I mean sounds like it. There's a bunch of people in another.

SPEAKER_04 44:52

Yeah, I think I think they were tangled into uh some some bad bad people for sure. I don't know if it was directly my parents, but uh the family of my parents. Oh yeah, for sure. They were into some I mean, we've had fet feds come up to the house, we've had you know biker gangs show up and ready to kill somebody. I mean, we've had some crazy things. So I'm obviously they've I mean something had to be going on. Probably more than smoking dishes.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Oh, who knows? Yeah, to be honest. So what so drugs are introduced, like uh so you know, obviously sounds like super early on. Um, and you know, marijuana, at least back then, marijuana is very different than what it is today. The substance hasn't changed, but regulation and laws, and I mean there's even a lot of good people that use marijuana now. Um, but yeah, the time, like that time frame. I mean, yeah, basic possession of marijuana in our state was a felony. Yeah, yeah. Um and so was marijuana the first like kind of like drug, so to speak, or was there pills or no, like for me?

SPEAKER_04 45:57

Yeah, for you. Oh, it was weed. Yeah, smoked it out of a pop can. Yeah, yeah, first time remember. I don't know the age, it's maybe 10. Maybe 10, which is wild to think because you know I have kids that are younger and that are around that age, but sure, yeah, I'd say 10 or 11. Uh, but I think it was normal, like the friends that I did have uh were still in that little area that I was, you know, uh, because I would still like when my mom had her new boyfriend, I'd still go stay with my grandparents, where which was super close to the place I was at, like five, ten minutes. And then the kids I knew from that uh neighborhood I was initially living in lived right around my grandparents. So I was still, you know, tied in with them. Uh so when I'd go stay with my grandparents or something, I'd be hanging out with those kids in the neighborhood and you know, go from there.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

So besides like the friends around your grandparents, like was grandma and grandpa's pretty stable always? Oh yeah. It was no drug use or anything there.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

Oh no. They would absolutely have my hind. Yeah. Uh yeah. It was it. They never. I just remember my grandma. I mean, she would smack me in the back of the head, like nothing like innocent, like any grandma. She she would say my full name, and it's like, oh no. I don't I don't want to go there. Yeah. Um, but yeah, super awesome people. Grandpa, they didn't drink, they didn't party, didn't do drugs. I mean, just any grandparent you would think that's that was them. They were they were the best. They were probably the brightest thing I had in my life at that time, for sure. I mean, they get us Christmas, stuff like that. Got me a little mini bike. My grandpa got. Um, I'd go there and I'd stay up with grandpa till two or three in the morning, tinkering with lawnmowers and stuff like that. Just awesome things. I mean, do the garden with my grandma, go have breakfast at Hardy's with my grandpa on Saturday morning, just stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Super awesome people. Um desired to take a quick break, or still good. Yeah. What's up? Yeah, just like hearing you talk about these things, like, you know, obviously our stories are childhoods are very different. Yeah. But like there's also, you know, I think of like, you know, happen to actually be like sixth grade, like going to buddies' houses, right? There's weed, there's like starting to drink, like and but like the difference was was like there's stability at home. And so like my parents immediately like pulled me out of that situation. Yeah. And like I think about you know, and obviously you didn't, you know, have the stability at home, but it's like you know, as a police officer now, right? Yeah. And I know of a bunch of other cops that like could have went both ways. And I I just think of like how you know it reminds me of just how like thankful I am that my parents, you know, pulled me out of those situations. Um yeah, because it could have gone different.

SPEAKER_04 49:12

Well, yeah, and I would say even even our childhoods could be what they are, completely different, but you could have still turned out way worse than I ever did. Sure. Even even with a great upbringing. I know some kids that had, you know, born with a golden spoon, so to speak, and they're not so good. Yeah. Uh, but I think the craziest thing is is obviously how God brings us together, uh, and and we can still be a whole. Yeah. Uh it doesn't matter how we, you know, my past is never gonna define my future. It used to. Sure. Uh, because I used to think it was okay for all the excuses of, hey, I was dealt this, I did this, like, you know, it's okay for me to turn out to be a piece of crap, and everybody's gonna be like, eh, I understand. I get it. Um, but I always knew at a young age, uh, obviously I didn't know God because my parents, nobody was in to God. Uh still not really. Uh, don't really care to go or be a part of it, but I always knew and had a feeling like there, there I had something big in life, you know, purpose. Um I also would think like growing up, like, why is this always happened to me? Because I'd get screwed up, I'd get hurt, break this bone, um, this crazy stuff happened to me, you know. But yeah, I I think I think no matter what your upbringing is, is not going. I mean, some people have better shot at their future. Um, but I think it's I mean, it's all in God's hands at that point. I mean, everybody, like I always say, you know, uh, God has led me to some beautiful doors. I mean, but he never turned the knob, he never pushed that door open for me. Um, but I I definitely have been through some crazy stuff to where I shouldn't be where I am today. Um, because obviously it it's harder for I would say kids that have an up like a rough upbringing because it takes a while. It takes a while for me to even understand this isn't right, this isn't normal, this isn't okay, this is not what I want. Uh, and then you try to basically rewire your body and you know how you look at things in life, uh, you know, when you're 20, 30 years old. That's that's hard to do.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

So, what is uh moving

High School Parties And Escalation

SPEAKER_01 51:40

into like high school years, like what are things that stand out?

SPEAKER_04 51:43

I would say so. Um, you know, fighting, stuff like that. I broke my hand, I think when I was in seventh or eighth grade or something for fighting in the locker room. Went to just absolutely annihilate this kid and he ducked, and I punched one of those lockers to have like the grades. Um, but I was pretty mean going through their high school is when I left my mom. Um I ended up so I would go to my dad's for the summer for like a month, maybe. And that was the best time. That was the only time I can remember. I never wanted to go back home. Yeah. Uh I just loved it at my dad's, loved the freedom and stuff like that of the nice life, AC. We never had air conditioning. Uh growing up, I had a TV with knobs. You know, you have to mess with the antenna, put some aluminum foil on it, get it to work. Didn't I had cable at my dad's, had, you know, just a different, just a different life there. So I would stay there, and I ended up telling my dad, um, because it was hard to break that cycle with my mom, because anytime I would go to leave, uh, she'd make me feel bad. Or she would get mad and she she would hit me too. Don't get don't get me wrong, my mom was abusive. Uh, she's no saint to any of this. She she would grab a hold of a bunk bed and just absolutely stomp me uh on her bunk beds. I remember going back at a young age, so her boyfriend and stuff, the abuse, I guess I would say, is not just from him. It it was from her too. Um, but if you made a peep when it was time to go to bed, I mean, my oldest brother slept on the top bunk. I slept on the bottom with my middle, but I was to the outside. I remember she would come in and grab a hold of those bunk beds at the top and just kick. I mean, kick the holy crap out of me. Yeah. And my other brother would be tickling me to make me laugh. So she comes back in to kick me some more.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Sounds like an older brother.

SPEAKER_04 53:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what they would do. But I remember middle school wise, of like the most traumatic thing of like my mom would ever do is so I had a learning disability. I don't know if I would imagine growing up, stuff like that, school wasn't huge. Uh I don't ever remember caring about school. It was just getting through. I think at that time, the group of kids that I was with, you know, the school knew probably the type of life I was living and stuff like that. But yeah, uh report cards got mailed, so they never got them when I was failing. I actually burned a barn down, uh, burning my report card. Uh, but yeah, it was not good in school. But I remember in middle school, like my mom would try to teach me her patience is zero. Um, she'd be like smacking the table, screaming, why are you so stupid? Why can't you figure this out? Smack me in the back of the head, and then I'd say, Hey, I'm gonna go live with my dad. Oh, no, that's the worst thing you could say to her. Um, then she would just start hammering me. You know, go live with them, leave me, I don't care anymore. Blah blah blah. Basically, like another like mind game, uh, what it was. But yeah, she would she would beat the crap out of me too. It just never hurt because it's my mom. Yeah. Um, but I finally went to my dad's on um say my eighth grade and ninth grade year. So I went to my dad's and um I was like, dad, I I just want to live here. And I think I was I think I was 16. I would had to be because that would have been the only time my mom was okay with it or was legally allowed to, or something like that. Um, obviously, my dad reached out to my mom, it's like, hey, Zach's wanting to live here. So now that's all of her kids leaving, and obviously it was an absolutely not, he's not doing this, and then she tried to make me feel bad, and I just kind of stood my ground because my dad was always, son, if you want to live here, you can live here. If you don't, you don't. That was his motto. He never pressured me one way or another. Uh, I'd never remember my dad saying, I want you to live with me. Uh, don't go back to your mom, your mom's this, your mom's. I never remember that. Um, but I ended up di living with my dad, which honestly at the time probably wasn't the best move. I went into freshman year, uh partying, hung out with my I was back with my older brothers. Sure. Uh now they're older. I'm older. Uh drugs are a little bit different, parties are a little bit different. That time I'm 15, 16 years old.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

Uh what was the age gap? Like what was your game?

SPEAKER_04 56:41

So we're all two years apart. Okay. I'm four from my oldest. Okay. So two from my middle, four from my oldest. So we were just two years apart. Yeah. So I would say, I'm 15, 16, my next one's 18, the next one's 20. So and uh, but yeah, we were we were in that era. I kind of hung out with the middle brother. Um I mean, we'd go to parties, it was fun. Like, I had a blast, I'm not gonna lie. Uh, but that was obviously not normal. Uh we should have had more structure. The only rules my dad ever had was uh either be in by the street lights kicked on or you're locked out and don't be brought home by a cop. Um so we would party, and I remember we wouldn't go to school for days. Yeah. We'd have like uh friends call us in to the principal and act like our parents. Like obviously, you don't get away with that. Yeah, you you don't get away with that now. Uh there's a little more, there's a couple more steps you gotta go to call off a friend. Uh but yeah, they would they would call me off, and then I remember it happened maybe three, four times we got away with it, and then this one time uh she called it in. It was always a girl we'd have, sound like our mom. Yeah. Uh they'd call it in and they're like, Okay, and they didn't believe it. And they're like, Hey, stay on the phone real quick. I'm gonna just, you know, patch you over to this person. Boom, she hangs up. I was like, dude, what are you doing? Why'd you just hang up? Now they know it's not true. Ever since then, I was I was screwed. Yeah, but there was days like weeks we wouldn't go to school because we're out partying. We would stay in this house that older friends had. I'm not kidding you. We had enough money for sometimes electricity, rent, and beer. That was it. Because all we did was party. I think I got maybe two credits.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:37

I mean, I failed gym. Yeah, that's pretty hard to do. That's that's tough. Yeah, yeah. I flunked it. I mean, there was, but at that time I was still I started getting into the pills, uh, air duster, stuff like that. I was hitting air duster in our lockers at school and then walked to lunch. I remember leaving school and doing air duster, and this is where the structure would come into play if I had that. Thankfully, I I'm still here and I get to talk about it and try to navigate now, my own kids, of why you don't do this or you don't live that, and nor am I gonna allow you because my dad didn't care. And I'm out here, we'd do uh we'd drive around, call them roadies, uh just hitting air duster driving around. I mean, that's that's pretty stupid. Uh, because when you hit it long enough, you'll pass out. Um, but we'd do that. I remember we'd go to parties and these people would bring, they'd have a bag full of pills, all different kinds. First time ever uh did harder pills, you know, like methadone or oxy, stuff like that. Um, but yeah, I was partying, fighting, constantly fighting. Uh school. Uh yeah, just a sooner. No, school. Honestly, I I made a name of myself at a young age of basically I'm I'm a fighter and I'm gonna fight. And uh we'd set up fights where I'd fight about every day after school. We'd go to the the park in our area, go down to the basketball courts, and or we'd just drive around uh and I'd flip people off. And if they flipped me off or said something back, we'd stop and I'd get out and whip them right there. And that's and that's that's what we would do. I mean, I was a mean. There's I remember times we'd walk. We had no car, so we're walking. And uh I bet I bet a friend that I was with, I was like, hey, next person that gets to hit somebody, you know, has to buy the other person a pack of cigarettes. And I remember this car was driving, and I flicked a cigarette into his windshield, and it kind of does that little ash spring. It looks like firework. Man, he slammed on those brakes, put it in reverse, and did. I didn't even let him say hi, screamed nothing, just cracked him right off. I mean, that that's the silliest things that I've ever heard of to do. But I was obviously my upbringing molded me into this very mean person.

Becoming Violent To Gain Respect

SPEAKER_04 1:01:03

Like I was I was very violent.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

So, like so, obviously, throughout this, you know, you've mentioned the anger, the violence, uh just being mad and mean, like now, as you sit back and you think about like that emotion, like what at that young age, like what was in your head as to why I'm gonna be the meanest, toughest MF or out here? Like, was it because of the abuse? Was it because like man uh you started to recognize that like your home was different? Like, what derived that?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:39

I I would think I recognized the beatings and even my brothers picking on me, or just I was always running around with older crowds, and I just always would tell myself growing up my motto was you're either gonna respect me or I'll beat it into you. Uh, and that was because I'm getting beaten growing up, and then I'm finally mean enough or strong enough, or know I can, you know, know how to fight and stuff like that, to where it's like, nobody's gonna disrespect me again. Um there, I mean, there's times to where my brothers would have issues with people, they'd call me up and I would just show up and beat whoever they had a problem with. Uh, I mean, I was the smallest, but I was by far the meanest out of all of us. And it was just it, I mean, it was the upbringing, honestly. It was the meanness started off young. I mean, I'm getting smacked, you know, I'm getting mental abuse, physical abuse at such a young age, and then I'm molded into now when I'm bigger, more mature, I have muscles, I'm strong, like I can actually do something with that anger instead. Before I'd get mad, but what am I gonna do? I'm five, six years old. Who am I gonna hurt? Sure. Uh now I'm 16, now I can hurt somebody. You know, I'm 15, now I can hurt somebody. You know, puberty, you know, you start hitting that, and then you know, it just clicks for me where I'm like constantly fighting with my brothers or constantly fighting this person or this person, and at some point it's just like it's part of life. That's you know, being the baddest was the coolest thing to me. Made me finally, I don't know, feel that I had a purpose. Sure. I mean, before I didn't have a purpose. Uh now, you know, everybody knew me of I'll fight. And and that was like the best thing to me. Yeah. That's what was important uh was to fight.

unknown 1:03:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:36

What anybody would remember me of growing up as in school, it would be that. I mean, they they knew I was a fighter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

So talk to me like the progression of like substance abuse, obviously, a sixth grader smoking weed and you know, probably drinking, I'm guessing. Oh yeah. Um, like what is that, you know, as a let's just use it as an example. Like a 21-year-old gets hired on as a cop.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:02

And they go out and they make a traffic stop, and here's this dude that's 30 years old and he's tatted up and he's been to prison half, you know, most of his adult life. And he's a junkie, he's a user, he's just a shit bag in their, you know, in their head. It's just yeah. But yet, you know, part of obviously this this whole thing today is like telling your story because I'm not I think you would even say, as we get into later, like, you know, cops have to find this balance, right? It's not that we shouldn't enforce our laws, it's not that we shouldn't uh take people to jail because sometimes that's what they need. Oh yeah. But yet putting a human behind this, you know, this doper, this tweaker, this, you know, putting this human behind and the story behind. Um what did that progression of like substance abuse look like? And like what are some stories that like stand out when you were young? As in like doing drugs or like like so, obviously, you know, probably the common person thinks somebody like just an example, like my grandpa, yeah. Before he passed away, I remember you know, never touched drugs in his life. Um, he's like, What Matt, what do these people what do they use drugs for? Why do they start? And it's like, that's it's a lot more complicated than that, grandpa. But and obviously it's law enforcement and you know, even the medics and the fire guys, like they understand this at a different level, but like that progression. So, like most cops smoked weed when they were young and and drink beer. Um, most humans do, right? But yet we don't go, you know, down that road of the the eventually leading to hard stuff. So, like, what does that progression path look like?

Air Duster High And Pill Culture

SPEAKER_04 1:05:44

Uh, I would say, like, obviously, the marijuana was the gateway for me, but I was always for for me, I'm not saying everybody, but I would say a lot of them. Everybody's trying to cover something, uh, a past. A feeling. Uh, people, you know, cope with things way different, uh, as in stress or hurt and stuff like that. But I would say mine is a little bit different because I was around it at such a young age. I mean, I've been around drugs since I could remember. Um, so I would say that for it to progress for me was natural. I mean, it was gonna come uh because obviously I chose that way, but you know, getting into the more, you know, pills and stuff like that, it was just cool. Everybody else was doing it, the buzz was there, like it molds you into this person that's not true. Like you don't have hurt, you don't have, you know, I feel like when you're going through the traumas that you go through, if you don't learn to deal with them, you're gonna turn to something. Sure. Something's gonna mask, or you're just gonna turn into a ticking time bomb and end up, you know, beating the crap out of your spouse or your loved ones or anyone around, you know. But I mean, me started and then I got into you know harder stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:07

So, like in high school, like mainly downer pills, or they would downers was the you know, the thing to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:15

I mean, I didn't get into the hard stuff, obviously, until I was in my adult years. But so freshman year was basically all partying.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:24

I was doing the air duster, uh I'm just curious, like like another aspect of this, right, is cops like like you said, a lot of cops have smoked weed at some point in their life, you know, in high school or college or whatever. But it was also just like an a curious side, right? I've asked cops like, hey, what do you want me to ask Zach? Like, what do we want to talk about? And just like, so like air dusters, like what's the effect of that? Well, I've literally seen I've I've seen people die on it, and I'll seem for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:49

You know the crazy thing, and this is me by no way like glorifying any drugs. I don't uh you know, I I was doing air duster every single day my freshman year, you know. I mean, I'm not kidding you. I I would hit it, stick my head in the locker, hit it, and uh I remember trying to go to lunch and just passed out, boom, with my tray, bam. You know, you hit it and it is the most intense high for about 30 seconds. Like, I think the funny thing is, is like when you first hit it, it changes your voice. You'll literally talk, like you know, your voice gets so deep when you hit it, and it's like, oh but then it's like this ringing, and it just whoa, whoa, whoa. Like it feels like your your head's like just I mean, in and out. It's like you you just hit like I don't know, a lot of helium, stuff like that. Like it's just but then if you hit it, you never know if you're gonna pass out. I mean, you'll hit it to where I know people that got addicted to it. Sure, yeah, I've seen that too. I would imagine I was addicted like addicted to it at some point. I mean, I did it a lot, um, but it was a high. It was something I feel like the air duster is something to where you can afford it, it's easy to get, it's legal. At that time, they didn't have it locked up. They're they got it locked up now. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but we'd go in there, steal it. Uh we're I mean, we're in school, we ain't got no money. We'd either steal money from our parents or we'd go into the store and just, you know, stuff it in your pant leg. But the high is is like it's it's one heck of a rush for about 30 seconds. But if you hit it too long, you pass out. Yeah. Uh, and that's or you know, there's so much risk to it. Obviously, it kills your brain cells, but if you hold it a certain way, it'll literally free you'll get frostbite because it will freeze. Yeah. Um, but I would imagine people get addicted to that very intense 30-second high because that's really all at last. Yeah. I couldn't imagine. I I just I don't know. I was wild. Like there's no way I would even want that in my life, dude. I would I would pass out even thinking about trying it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:12

So, like with the pills, like what obviously, you know, downers. So I'm assuming like, you know, we're partying, we're just chilling, we're completely relaxed, life is not a problem anymore, kind of thing. Nope. Um what is that progression of pills? Is it different? Do you go, you know, for you and your story, like, was it start going to like a different variety of pills, or you just were taking more and more and more as time went on?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:35

I don't think I cared. I think I was addicted to I'm cool. I'm at a party, I'm gonna, you know, break a pill up and snort it. Obviously, I never ate a pill. I've never ate a pill until maybe five years ago when I, you know, got fixed. Yeah. And they made me, even though I'm telling them, like, hey, I don't want it. Like, I and they're like, no, you have to. But obviously, it was the cool thing to do. Uh, you know, break a pill up, people's there, partying. That's what you think girls like, that's what you know your buddies like. As like I said before, I'm hanging out with kids that are probably four or five years older than me, six years, you know, or right around my age. I didn't hang out with, you know, the jocks, I would say, and stuff, you know, I hung out with the cool kids, you know, the party kids. But uh I would say the first one, like the first drugs I started was pills, was probably like Norcos, and then it would be percocets. And I remember I did a methadone, which just absolutely rocked my world where I was like, yeah, I don't want to do that again. That burnt.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:43

Um, but yeah, then you get into, you know, basically whatever somebody has. I mean, I never knew what could happen by taking these pills. I knew it wasn't heroin. And you know, growing up, I you know, you think of heroin, you think of needles, but that's not true. Like you can do it many ways. Um, but heroin I was always scared of because you never know what you're getting. You you could die.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:11

So did you see so like these parties? Are you seeing like are you seeing heroin? Are you seeing meth? Or is you're just kind of you're just doing what you have, which is pills and drinking and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:23

I mean, I'm sure it was there for sure. Acid, stuff like that. Um, you know, we'd do shrooms, stuff, you know, to make you trip. But I I would imagine the parties I were at, it just wasn't my choice of drug at the time. So I had never paid attention to what it was. You know, I didn't see a lot of like tweakers, but definitely uh heroin for sure. But you always knew the ones that were on it, uh, the hard stuff. We never really wanted to mess with the hard stuff right away. I mean, at a time my brother, you know, used to sell it and we'd go to Chicago, stuff like that. You're saying heroin? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, right, it's and then there was a time to like my brother was my oldest brother was living on his own house to where you know we're going over there. Um he's selling it. And I remember they'd be in these little cubes, they'd go to Chicago and stuff and come back. Um I remember

Heroin Around Him And FBI Raid

SPEAKER_04 1:13:20

my brother, he ended up um getting in trouble for a bank robbery. Umed up just absolutely surrounding the house and stuff like that. And I was like, oh man. Were you home? Oh yeah. I was thinking that I I was thinking they were there for the drugs. I honest God, I knew nothing about this bank robbery crap.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:38

So what was that what was that situation like? Um as far as your experience and the cops showing up and oh there was SWAT, there's everything.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:46

I mean, it stuff you see on movies, they were there. Yeah. But yeah, it was I mean, it's wild. You you get, you know, you're a part of that and they shut down an entire road. And then I remember going to my dad, I was at my dad's, I lived at my dad's, and uh just cleaned my bedroom. And I come home after a couple days or something, and my bedroom just wrecked. I mean, wrecked. Ceiling to floor. I come downstairs and I'm like, Dad, what the heck did you do to my bedroom? Because dad never went into our rooms. That was one thing he never did. He'd stand out the door, he'd respect our privacy, even though he shouldn't have. Uh, but he would respect it, and he's like, Oh, you know, the FBI was up there. I'm like, dude, what? So I remember I had uh some drugs and I stuck it in this fake plant. So I'd take this fake plant, foam plant, and I'd cut a square out of it and it'd be half of it. So then I would shove it back down in the pot, and my my drugs were in there. True. So I didn't even ask why they were nothing, just ran upstairs, grabbed that plant, ripped it off, and it was still there. And I was like, oh, thank God.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:57

And uh, but no, they were there. They had all our pictures laid out to see if my brother was right-handed or left-handed because the bank robbery held the gun with their left, typically means they're left-handed. You're gonna have it in your power hand, and we're all right. But yeah, that was, I mean, at a young age, that was super wild to even be a part of or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:20

So in high school, are you are you getting caught at all? Are you on probation?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:25

No, my brothers did. Uh, my one brother, he got in trouble for him and his friends were breaking into a gas station. And I remember him calling me like late at night, and this is like freezing cold, which is the worst time to be a criminal and try to run, yeah, is when it there's snow on the ground. Pretty easy. You don't even need a dog at that point. Uh, but yeah, that's what it was. And I remember him calling me, he's like, Oh, I'm in so much trouble. I need help. And I was like, you know, obviously I couldn't get to him, I couldn't drive. Uh, but yeah, they ended up finding him. It was hilarious. We laugh about it now because we're on I mean, we're we're way different than what we were growing up. Yeah. Uh, but yeah. So I would say, you know, the party and stuff like that. They still I didn't personally get in trouble. Uh there, but I was already running from the cops, cops bust a party, and I'm I'm out. Yeah. Uh I was already already had it in my mindset. Cops weren't my friends, try to avoid them. Uh, but yeah, never never got in trouble at a young age. I got brought home once for curfew. Um, but that was about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:36

That was yeah. So then you're about how old at this point?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:42

Uh I was still all this happened freshman

Church Camp And A New Beginning

SPEAKER_04 1:16:45

year. Okay. And then I ended up uh changing my life for a while. Um people uh I started dating this girl, and uh we ended up breaking up, but her parents, you know, her dad was a pastor, her mom was a you know a beautiful person. Um they ended up obviously hearing how I was raised and the life because I was I've always been open and honest. I've never been um what I say is a hypocrite or something like that. Like I was very upfront. Um, every my past was always on my forefront, didn't care, wasn't ashamed. And they ended up hearing a lot of this, and uh they ended up it was just like, hey, you know, would you would you like to go? Because we me and her already broke up and they're like, Hey, um, you want to go to church camp? And you know, I was going to church here and there, and then I'd start going full time because I only went to church because I met that girl. Well, her dad's a pastor. Girls will make you do all kinds of stuff. Yeah. If if I'm gonna date her, I gotta go to this church thing. Yeah uh didn't care about it, obviously. You know, I remember meeting her, and I'm at a party, and she was like on a vacation or something, and I'm texting her, and people's like, You're an idiot, you know, you know who her dad is, you know. That's not you're just not I'm not gonna fit in.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:06

And at that time, I already had a tattoo, like, you know, three inches tall, shoulder, you know, shoulder to shoulder, my last name across. So I'm already, I already got a massive. My first tattoo, I was 16. My mom signed for it. And I went big. I didn't go little. Uh, you know, I was already troubled, like it wasn't my scenery. So I was like, obviously, at the time, I made all these changes for her. You know, like you said, men do crazy things for women, it could be positive, it could be negative. Uh with this, you know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to win her. So I'm doing all this, I'm going to church, I'm doing all this, not taking it any serious. But I ended up going, they asked, hey, you want to go to church camp? I was like, Yeah, sure. Why not? You know, kind of have to. Um, but I ended up going, and then basically they the life they were living, they're they weren't rich. They they had a nice life. Yeah. Uh, but there was structure, stability, there was love. That was, you know, never seen that. Didn't know what that was. Um, there was no partying, there was no hurting me, there was no tough love. It was just, you know, um a family that I never seen. So that's what drew me in. And uh they asked me to go to church camp. I didn't go to church camp and then gave my life to God, you know, once I learned about him and everything. So we would go two weeks. First week, uh first week was our week, the age group that we were in. The second week was for the youngers, or vice versa, one of the two. So I was always there for two weeks instead of one week like normal people, because they help run it and all that. But I remember I gave my life to to God at a picnic table uh at church camp. Uh it was 724 of 09 uh the day I did. So you would have been how old? 16. Okay. I was right around 15, 16 years old still. Because the freshman year, I it went crazy, but the year after freshman year that summer is when so I was still 15, 16 years old. So that summer, I did a lot of crazy stuff in one year, and then the amount of change that I had was would have been my freshman summer year. Um, because the freshman year I was at high school is actually how I met my wife, who I'm with now, which is wild. We dated, or she was obsessed with me, and I just whatever. And she she'll tell you that. She was you remind her of that still, yeah. Oh yeah, oh yeah. She she tells me all the time I was crazy obsessed with you, and I wanted nothing really to do with her like that far. You know, I was just a troubled kid wanting to party and have fun. Um, but yeah, I met I met the you know the other family, and they basically took me in, showed me a life that I never seen, showed me what God was, showed me what love was, you know, what a family is. Uh, they gave me all that. And honestly, without them, I would not be where I am today. Because even though it didn't stick at the time, because I was I was super good, and you could see everybody still to this day can see a difference of when I'm living, you know, with and for God as when I'm not, when I am living not a good life. Um, and and it did. I mean, it it changed me for a couple years, and then it I slowly slipped back.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:44

I think there's something interesting though, and uh you know, obviously we haven't got too much into like your faith journey and stuff, but like, you know, there's this reality that I think we a couple different realities that I think we fail to as as men and adults to really think about. And one is like, you know, we have a moment of salvation, yeah, right. Like for me, that was at a young age, yeah. And it was before all of my high school partying, right? Like, but there's something about like it was a genuine encounter with this risen Jesus, and though like went completely astray and partied and you know, did all kinds of things. Um, fortunately, I was a juvenile at the time, just never got caught.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:30

And but like the Holy Spirit, you know, scripture talks about like the Holy Spirit like living in us and the Holy Spirit being a guide, and you get to see, you know, through like my own story, through your story, where like God never left you. Like, we might have left God, you might have like walked away from God, but you get to see where like that grace and that spirit like truly was always drawing you back, even at times like when you don't realize it. And uh yeah, and the irony. So I just so when we had dinner a couple weeks ago, this is the first time that I made this connection, super small world, right? Yeah, um, yeah. So I actually dated uh one of the old the older daughters in this family. Had no idea, had no idea you were, you know, I was older than you, had no idea that you're ever um in this picture such a small world. It's so so funny when you told me that. I was like, I can't believe I know exactly who you're talking about because yeah, I used to go over there. Um so we you have this this youth, you know, this abuse and you know, no stability, and we're we're you know, at one point homeless and going back and forth to mom and dad and the brothers, and now you encounter this family that yeah, not rich by the you know the country standards, but yeah, nice, clean, structured home, structured family. Like what was it like to see a life that you know happens to be maybe more normal to the the normal person, but yet was very foreign to you. Like what are things that you began to stand out to you?

SPEAKER_04 1:24:06

I would I would say the the thing that obviously stuck to me first was you know, walking into their house. I'm I'm not saying they lived a mansion or anything. It's nice. Yeah. To me, that was the nicest house I've ever been in. Uh but I would say that the love that they had, you know, for one another, like what they did together as a family just like blew my mind. Um they didn't party, they had fun, clean fun, you know, and they actually loved one another, you know, showed it in just a way that I never seen. And you know, I feel bad because they had no idea what they were bringing in. Um I was so damaged beyond repair, um they never they never blinked an eye at me. They just they took me in and accepted me for who I was. And I would say the biggest thing that stood out was the love they showed. That I just I'm not saying my uh biological family didn't love me uh because I I know they do. Um but it was just it w it was a different way of life that I've never never knew existed. It was a fairy tale to me. Like I would say, you know, so to speak, that's that was, you know, my glory days. That was, you know, heaven to me. That was stuff the life that I lived with him was never even a dream. Um like I said, it wasn't a fancy life. It was just, you know, the structure was there, the love was there, the caring, the, you know, they were actually there for me, uh, cared about my health, my well-being, uh, what I was gonna be growing up, because you know, all the crazy thing at a young age turned me into a monster is what they did. What they did when they brought me in was try to prepare me for life, you know, what any parent should do as your kid is getting up to the adulthood. Um, and they showed me the love, you know, of Jesus and stuff that I've just never church was just church to me. God was just didn't even know who that was. Uh it's not like I knew who, you know, Satan was or anything like that, but God was just the word. Um, but yeah, they they showed me, I would say, you know, the godly side of life. And I mean, it just it drew me to uh I couldn't let go. Um it was just I don't know, it was the love for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:51

So eventually though, like you know, you go, you you do walk away from that that life, right? I don't know if that was your doing or or or their doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:01

Oh, it was my doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:02

Okay. What's that look like?

SPEAKER_04 1:27:03

Uh like I wouldn't say I walked away from that life, but I made choices and decisions that forced them to not have me as close to them. Sure. Um which is understandable. Um I don't know. I they ended up moving away. And I don't think I don't know, maybe I was a part of that reason. I don't know, but they never stopped loving me. Um maybe it's something I can ask. So I get I'm actually I actually reached out to them. Um haven't really talked to him or seen him in over 10 years. So I ended up reaching out um maybe last week or something. I remember talking to my wife, and I woke up in the morning. We wake up 5 30, 6 o'clock. First thing on my mind. I just, babe, I how would you feel if I reached out to him? And like, because I know they come here because their their family lives, you know. Not far, I mean an hour or two hours away from us. I was like, How would you feel? Like, you know, I l I genuinely love them and will always love them. I was like, hey, you know, how would you feel if I reached out to them and um so they could meet you, you know, meet my family, meet my life? When I did, and you know, so I plan on meeting with them in a couple

Slipping Back After Stability Leaves

SPEAKER_04 1:28:20

months. Wow, for the first time in like 10 years, 11 years. Yeah. So it will be interesting to know more of what happened, but I believed my doings uh was was a reason to it. Yeah, and they they ended up leaving, and at that time before they left, I was already dibbling back. Basically, I felt like my family would try to pull me back in. They were jealous of the life that I had, um, would make fun of me.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:52

Uh and you're how old? You're 16, 17? When they left? Like, yeah, when you're living with them and then they leave. No, I was 18 at the time. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:01

Yeah, so I I went to them what, sophomore year, sophomore, junior, uh, senior year. Um ended up finishing online because I got kicked out. Uh got I think they had like demerits or something, I don't know, which is wild. So there's some people there that did not agree with them bringing me in, did not agree with who I was, the past I had, didn't want nothing to do with me there. From the church, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, which is wild to think because you know, they can judge me all they want, but I can see them now. Yeah. And they're not in a healthy, you know, place. Um, which I still, you know, I pray for them and I still wish that they get back to where they were, but it's wild how it looks, you know, growing up to where those people kicked me out and was never for me and always, you know, um, I would say talk crap about me.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:02

Yeah, and that's interesting, like our human nature. Like our human natures judge people. Oh, for sure. And our human natures to not get involved in messy situations, but like it just reminds me. I just think of Jesus. Yeah and you know, I have to think about this all the time myself, right? I get to deal still on a nightly basis with people that are messy, right? Yeah. And and yet when we look at the gospels, like Jesus surrounded himself with those people to the extent that, you know, uh culturally uh representative of their day, the the pastors and the elders and the church leaders wearing suits and ties were were like, hey, you can't hang out with these people.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:47

And you know, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law as scripture would call them. But yet Jesus was with the prostitutes and the tax collectors and the drunks and the and like yeah, it's just it's it's it's a testimony. Like I I like I said, I had no idea that you lived with this family and dated the daughter and all that stuff. Um it's a testimony to them and like their character to take you in and to see that side. And I can certainly see where you know other people from their church wouldn't have agreed with that.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:16

Yeah, no, I mean we just talked and it was it was nice. She messaged me back, and it was like I was just like, hey, if you want to talk about it with you know him and pray about it or whatever, I totally understand. Um it was an instant response. She's like, hey, I just asked him, and it's like an absolutely, and she's like, I just want you to know we've always loved you uh and we always will. And we're like, you know, we're proud of who you are, you know, the family that you're raising now. And they obviously keep tabs as uh social media, stuff like that. So that they haven't seen the struggle, the deep struggle I went to. Obviously, they they know obviously from social media or stuff like that. But um, yeah, I mean, huge part of how I raised my kids today and the godly man I am today started with them. And like I say, is you know, it's it's like a seed, it gets planted, it takes a while. Um, even though if they wouldn't have shown me the life they did, I I wouldn't be probably living the life that I am today. I'm not saying it's all glory to them, but they were a massive milestone to my life to change paths. And just by that one, you know, couple, one family do that for me. Now, you know, I've got my brothers to come to church. I've got, you know, I raised my family in a in a church. You know, God is huge. My kids love, you know, we call them Jesus jams, like they love just singing it at the top of their lungs, like all that of a an entire generation, you know, and a younger generation coming up is based off of them taking a chance that nobody else would. And that's that's why I say is like when they brought me into that life, all my flaws were on the outside, everybody could see them. It was so so it was easy to judge me, like you said, but all theirs were hidden. Yeah, um, and that that's the the downfall to that is all my stuff is very visible. It's it's the people that you know can point a finger at me all they want, but what's going on in your life? Yeah, uh you know, the thing is, is mine's out in the open.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:35

You know, a lot of people struggle with stuff that you would never know they struggle. Like there's some situations out there where you're like, what? I wouldn't ever guess that. Yeah. And then there's some out there, it's like, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

unknown 1:33:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:49

So, like, you know, if it was, you know, obviously we've got into all kinds of like different topics and areas and stuff, but like, but then it gets, you know, much, I would say, worse, or you know, it's heavy. And and so, like, so you've got this stability in them. It's the first time you've seen this, like, what a real life honestly looks like and what Christ looks like, and um, but then they they they move away, and I assume like did do you feel like you know, like almost kind of abandoned and back on your own?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:21

For sure. But at the time, and the weird thing is how the devil works the whole time, you know, the devil only, you know, to me is tries to grab you, and once he's got you, you're in. You know, he don't have to constantly watch you and all this stuff until you start doing good. So the entire time I'm doing good, I did good, but all it takes is one time, and then you're hooked right back into life. So I started slowly back to partying, using their car because they got me a car, they bought me nice clothes. Like, dude, I lived an amazing life with them. Um, paid for my schooling, everything. You know, I went to uh a private school, um, which is crazy to think, you know, they so I slowly started abusing their kindness uh and just got wrapped back in to the old life, and it was mainly, you know, hanging out with my brothers again, hanging out with old friends that I knew, and just started the vicious cycle over again, and then they ended up leaving, and yeah, it was like nobody wants me again. I'm just you know, I've kind of accepted this is the life that I was desired to live. Um, so make the best of it. I just went back to the old ways, went uh back to my mom's and um started the the partying again. Um went to work, working in a factory. Um so did you graduate high school or not?

Prescription Opioids And New Fatherhood

SPEAKER_01 1:35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:59

Okay, okay. Yep, I did. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:02

So now you're in a factory.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:03

Yeah, working in a factory, just supplying gas money and drug money, really. Yeah. You know, I was always really, you know, weed, go back to marijuana. Um then I'd get back into the pills, and then I ended up meeting um a girl, and she was harder into the pills. So I was like, oh, you know, I've I've had injuries before, so I was like, man, I'll just go to this doctor. I ended up meeting her and uh went to a doctor and got overly prescribed narcotics, and we ended up, you know, dating, and then she ended up getting pregnant, and we had um my oldest. Um, but yeah, she stayed with her, I think, for two years, three years, but that's when the pills were hardcore, like spend my last dollar on them. But you could never tell I was on them. I was never the type to nod out and stuff. They gave me energy. Uh so even though they were downers, they were uppers to me. Um, but yeah, I would do them, you know, constantly.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:17

So what kind of scripts were you? Were you mainly getting scripts?

SPEAKER_04 1:37:20

Yeah, I was prescribed 180 percocets and then ended up uh a little bit later, needed energy. I was like, oh yeah, man, Adderall. You know, so that then this guy started prescribing me 120 Adderall. So a month, I'm getting 300 pills. Yeah. 180 perks, 120 uh Adderall. 180 perks, I would be out in two weeks.

unknown 1:37:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:48

I'd sell 30 of them to help pay with the bills or whatever, I'd be out a week. Like, I mean, I would do 10 of them a day. Yeah. Easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:01

So, like, obviously, again, I assume most people listening to this, you know, understand, you know, the pill, the pill side, but like there's also people that don't understand how easy it is to do that and go that route and get pills, and like, you know, and I hope some of those regulations are changing, but at the same time, if you go, you know, I've had surgeries and injuries and stuff, and you go to the doctor, and it's like the very first thing they want to give you opioid pain medicine. Yeah, it's like, what are we doing here? Yeah, um, so I assume that was like super easy.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:32

You just went in there and literally, first time I ever met this guy. I I will say, I mean, I'm sure there's still people out there, but I would say they have cracked down on it, uh uh, some degree. Uh, but it's also what you I don't know, you you could still go to I call them Twack doctors, is what they are. They're not real. All they are is to get money and stuff. But basically, I walked in there and said, hey, you know, I've always had knee problems. I was like, oh, my knee hurts, my back hurts. I go, Oh, okay, you know, you feed them the line, dude. It was so easy. I'm not kidding you. It was ridiculous easy. Just the lie after that. So basically, I'd go in there and right off the rip gave me like I think you started off at 60 NOCO5s or something like that. And I just, dude, I remember thinking, dude, I hit the lottery. Yeah, I ain't gotta buy these things. I'm getting these every month for free. And then that's how it starts. You start low, 30, 60, it's not enough. More going in there every every month. You gotta go in there. And I would go in there every month from that time that I first went in there and got a script. They're not strong enough. They're not strong enough. So you up it, up it, go from Norcos. Now we're getting into Percocets. Now, you know, I'm on uh I call them perk tens, which is you know, a thousand milligrams of Percocet or whatever, which are stronger than Norcos because you don't you have like less, I think Tylenol in them, something like that. But every time I'm going in there, and then when I get maxed out on Percocets, I'm like, oh man, let's throw some Adderalls. We call them uh speed cocktail like cocktails, is what they would call them. So you have an upper and a downer, you mix them together, and it's strong.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:24

Yeah, and and like you know, I think our listeners all will know this, but like, yeah, so you're you're essentially getting legal synthetic heroin and legal synthetic methamphetamine, adderalls and as an amphetamine and upper.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:39

Yeah. Um and I can get pulled over with it and be okay. Yeah, I don't have to look over my back for you guys. Yeah, like I can have my bottle in my pocket, and you guys can stop me, and I I ain't got nothing to worry about. Because and then it also opens this door, like you guys would never think of uh now I can go out and buy what I'm prescribed. Yeah, and there's nothing you guys can do or whatever you find. Yeah, I could leave a house, you could pull me over, and I have my bottle with me. I ain't getting in trouble. Yeah, you can you can say the pill count or anything like that, but you can't charge me for the pill count and stuff like that, or I could just say, hey, the rest of them are at home. I just brought these in my bottle so you guys could see. Sure. And that's that's the crazy lifestyle that you know maybe you guys can't see or understand.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:26

But yeah, I think we get that side of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:28

Yeah, it just it just makes it to where like you're living high on the hog, is what I say. I mean, because now I can so if you do Norcos, if you're prescribed that, you can also do tabs because you're gonna fail for the same thing on a drug screen. Yeah, uh percocets are a little bit different, but you can do like oxies and stuff like that. Uh, and it's gonna show up the same on a drug screen. Yeah. And it it helped, it just I would say the biggest benefit is you get them monthly, and I don't have to worry about you guys. I can play the system a little bit better.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:01

So, like, obviously, just like any addiction. So we start down this road of pills now. It's you know, obviously getting into harder stuff, like with the quantities of of the amounts that you're taking. Like, when do you realize that, like, man, I'm straight up addicted to this stuff? Is that fairly soon because you run out or no?

SPEAKER_04 1:42:20

I I would say like a year into dating her.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:23

I just this is your baby mama, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:26

Yeah, the first one. Yep. Um I just started feeling this feeling because obviously I've already met God and and had that part of my life, but I would just have these feelings, not like godly feelings or anything, but obviously it was God trying to, you know, just work a little bit into my life of man, this this isn't the life I want to live. This isn't like I have goals. I want to be retired when I'm six years old, sitting on a porch. I remember driving and I would tell the girl I was with, like, that's what I want. Like we would drive, uh, school buses are going by, old couples just sitting there drinking coffee on their front porch. Why the rest of the world is chaotic and trying to get to where they're wanting to get, these two people have made it in life and they're just enjoying it. Like, that's what I wanted. I had, you know, goals, and they would always get fogged, fogged out or blurred out by the drugs. But I would always catch a glimpse because you can have high highs and low lows, but I'd always catch in the middle there of what normal life should be like. And I was just like, man, um, I don't want to live this life. And it and it was solely from the family that took me in. I showed that, and but I knew I've lived this life and this life. I knew they do not go together. You cannot live both lives, nor can you raise a child because a kid's involved at this point. So that was a huge motivation for me of dude, I I don't want to live in this government housing edition for the rest of my freaking life. Uh, I want to own my own house, I want to own my own business, I want to do all this. I had goals. Um but I would always just get sucked back in any anytime, and then when you're with somebody that's not wanting to change, very hard because you have emotions, love, and stuff like that involved. Uh but I yeah, I I always had a bigger picture sometimes, but it would just get blurred out by the drugs.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:36

So now you're looking at this child. Is your son? Yeah, yep. So you're looking at this child, and you know, of all things should be the strongest motivation in life to completely change and you know, say get rid of something like drugs in life. But yet it obviously it didn't have that effect. As you're saying, maybe it's you know, you're you're yeah, you're having these moments of clarity, you're seeing these goals. Like, what was that like to have a what it would just what did it look like to have a child early?

SPEAKER_04 1:45:10

Like a um I initially right off the bat was like I'm not raising this kid like how I was raised. So obviously my number one goal was to give him the life that I didn't have that I had never even dreamed of. Uh but it's hard to do that because the drugs got a hold of you. Um so, like, you know, snorting pills and stuff, dude. It was normal to have like me and her would be like, hey, you got pill, wipe your nose. Like, dude, that's that's messed up. Like, hey, I love you so much, uh, but you got you know, pills hanging out your nose. Like, it's it's just wild to think, but like a kid, it I didn't think I was doing anything wrong with the pills, you know. The harder drugs is what you know tore me up to where I could look at them and you know be like, dude, what in the hell? You know, why why can't you change? But you're never putting their best interests in the mind when drugs are involved, because your main priority, whether you like it or not, or see it, is your new mistress is the drugs. That's at the end of the day, that's what's important. Because you can't have a normal day without it.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:28

So did you and her kind of transition into harder stuff together, or did that come later?

SPEAKER_04 1:46:34

I did not, I could not. At that time, the weirdest thing is is at that time I could not stand hard drugs. She was into it before me, and basically I helped change her life. She never got back into it because of me. Did could not at that time I couldn't even really uh I wasn't even messing with pills, you know, because I didn't move back to my parents. I'd only do drugs like pills. I smoked weed all the time. But I pills, when I moved back after that family left, I moved out of Wallbatch to get away from it. Because I was like, I don't want to, you know, my life's out of control. So I moved back to my mom's for a little bit of structure and stability and just like you're out in the country, you don't have friends in the the town I had had two stoplights and a subway. Um but yeah, it was I moved back there to get away from that. So when I got with her, I really wasn't even into the pills. I'd do them here and there, but I didn't wake up and be like, oh man, I need pills. Not blaming her, but I got hardcore to the doctor and all that because of her. Because she always wanted to do them. So I was like, oh, I could go to the doctor, easy, get some pills. And I did. She always had a problem. Don't know why. I don't know. But she always had a problem getting them from you know the doctor or something like that. It was a little more difficult. Um, but I never got into the hard drugs because I couldn't stand them at the time, wanted nothing to do with them.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:05

So you're working at the time?

SPEAKER_04 1:48:07

Yeah, I've always worked. I worked uh like northern area, did RVs and stuff like that, built campers, so I made pretty good money.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:18

Um but yeah, it was so even up there, drugs were huge. Sure. Um But yeah, I would say when I got with her, I got hard into the pills, and it was like I realized I guess I probably wouldn't say I was addicted to people, but I knew I was hooked. I knew I was, you know, it consumed my life. I just I guess I didn't understand what the word addiction meant of the weight it carries. Sure. Addiction to me is just more than a word now. Yeah. Um it can I mean it takes your life, takes everything that you love away. Yeah. Um addiction is a whole nother world. It's just I I think people that don't understand it can just say, uh, you know, you were addicted. But to me it was more. Like addiction is, you know, I found later on with the pills that I was addicted, yeah. But I wasn't like deep, lost. Uh I could still see the light at the end of the tunnel.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:30

So like so you mentioned, you know, so like early life, like we're partying, right? That's what high school kids do, it's what college kids do. But then there becomes this time where like drug substance, like they take, you know, we see this, you've experienced this, you've lived this, like as a cop, you know, I see this with people, like it becomes this like all consuming like dark you know, from I I've got to go get my dope. I've got to go get my dope. It just becomes this like all-consuming thing. Like when do you remember that to start? When when did life start looking more like that than a party?

SPEAKER_04 1:50:13

Uh I mean, it definitely started with the pills. Like, you know, couldn't really make it anywhere in life because any extra money we had, you know, you'd put off the rent. We're living off the government. So rent. I think we got paid to live there. I'm not kidding you. I think we got paid like $25 for electricity. All we had to do was pay for electricity. So and I'm working. She never worked. Uh she quit her job the second day we started dating and never worked again. And I've always worked, always been a worker. Um, I just knew that's how it's the only way you're gonna live a nice life is get out there and work. Um but yeah, our paychecks would go to I don't know, so we got food stamps. So you know, we'd sell those and trade those for drugs sometimes. So I'd imagine it, like, yeah, for sure, the pills were huge. Uh and I was starting to be a dealer. I wasn't so much a user, I was doing both. I was dealing to, you know, uh cover my user part. Selling weed uh to try to make money off that, which you know, now I think about it, like there's so much risk in selling stuff, and you don't really make jack off of it. Like you might think you do, but there's no there's just it's silly. But yeah, I was selling stuff to basically handle my pill addiction because it did grab a hold of me. I'm not gonna lie about that. Yeah, um I was definitely relying on it, uh, for sure. I mean, every day some people that smoke cigarettes or whatever, and I did at the time, but some people, you know how they get up and they gotta smoke a cigarette or drink a cup of coffee or go pee before but I did a pill before I even went pee uh in the mornings. That's just how it was. I mean, it was normal. If we didn't have it, I would text everybody in my entire phone book to get one. And the feeling um to have one and do one was just like, oh man, yeah, life's good now. Now I'm good now. I can start my day. So like when do I say I would say like 18, 19. Okay. Like, because I had my first kid when I was 19. So 19 I started, you know, addiction became addiction to me. Um it really never left me until I don't know, five years ago. Yeah.

First Jail And Why It Failed

SPEAKER_01 1:52:48

When do like police start getting involved and that that kind of uh uh easily around then.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:54

I'm already dipping and diving, I'm getting pulled over. Um I'm you know, I notice it now, obviously. You start getting pulled over, and then you know, we're like, you know, screw the cops, you know, in a little more unpolite way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:10

You can give it to me for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:11

Yeah. But, anyways, we're you know, we're dipping and diving, we're playing that cycle with you guys. You pull us over, and I'm trying to figure out, yeah, I don't even know why I get pulled over, I'm being harassed, all that, you know, I take you to court, so you all that crap. Uh obviously, it's because my car and I am being places that I shouldn't, or that could be on your guys' radar at the time. Sure. So then obviously, when you see our cars constantly going in and out, yeah, yeah, you become uh not just a citizen, you become a priority at that point. And yeah, I would say young age. Uh I mean, I went to jail. First time I ever went to jail was I think a week after I turned 18.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:55

Went to jail. What'd that look like?

SPEAKER_04 1:53:58

Uh yeah, I don't know, not fun. I mean, I but I didn't care. I was in the life like um basically it was this freaking grocery store. Uh no, it wasn't. It wasn't the grocery store. Grocery store was part of it. Yeah. Uh but yeah, they you know, I'm already I was around this crowd when I was 17, living uh back in my mom's town and running around with them, drugs, you know, party and stuff like that. But then I start hanging out with these other two people that were into like breaking into stuff and stuff like that. Well, we went to this friend's house, we're we're supposed to smoke weed with this kid. I mean, the kid invited us over. We're supposed to be smoking weed, and all of a sudden we hear this window break, and they were trying to break into the kid's house. It's like something about a safe or something like that. Well, they broke the windows. The neighbors already, because we're out in you know, BFE, dude, and we're pacing this house. And then you get out, and it's one white guy or two white guys, a black guy, you know, we're walking around this house, it looks pretty suspicious. And uh it's actually, you know, two of I thought my good friends, and then this car drops you off and you take off. Well, what I thought we were doing and what they were doing was two different things. So they break this window, and the cops are already, you know, this car starts coming down this long driveway, and they're like, run. So growing up, somebody says run. I never sat there and thought why, and just run. That means cops are involved. You are running. And I remember taking off running through this woods, and we ended up running into this uh little barn. I don't know what it loft. It was like a loft area where this, you know, farmer old people had their campers, stuff like that. So the open face is open, the face of it. Yeah, and we're hiding. We know cops are coming. We already hear the sirens and all this stuff. They're about a quarter of a mile down the road at the house that just got the window broke. We're hiding and we're calling this guy, and we're like, dude, we're still this day. I knew I should have climbed up the silo. I knew I should have. I didn't. I followed them, uh followed them into there. We're sitting there, like, hey man, my buddy's coming to pick us up. Well, they they're like, hey, he's here. Cause we're looking out this little nail hole, like just peeking out of it, trying to see. And I hear tires pull in the driveway. He's like, Oh, dude, it's him, it's him, he's here. So I take off running and I run around, and it's a freaking squad car. And I instantly dive back in there. And I said, you know, I was like, oh shit. I was like, dad's a cop.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:44

He's like, did he see you? Well, this guy's so smart. This is how smart this old man. It was an old man. Hey, he pulls out of the driveway. I'm like, dude, he didn't see us. Hey, and we're sitting, I remember we're standing on the back of this camper that's backed into this loft. So there's like very little room. We're just standing there looking out a nail hole out of the barn. And I was like, dude, he's leaving, he's leaving, we're good. Because we're out in the county, so you can see miles from this corner. We're at it like a four-way. We're at this house on a four-way, so we can see miles from all over. And I'm watching him go. I'm like, oh, he didn't see me. Because I made a quick move back. So I was like, he either seen me or he didn't, but he did. But he leaves, and I'm not kidding you, about three minutes later, when we think we finally got him, an entire fleet of cops show up from all angles. They're driving through cornfields coming from the back. They all just swarm. And I remember looking at him and I was like, and all the still all he said was, We're fucked. That's all he said. So we're fucked. And I'm sitting there because I'm like, because he's used to it. He's already been in jail a couple times. I'm like, dude, what do we do? I'm freaking out. He's like, what? I was like, what do we do? And he said, we're fucked. So we'll be all right, we're just fucked though. And I they're going through the camper, the camper's rocking. We're standing on the back of the bumper, and it's rocking. I mean, they're ramsacking that camper, and it was just a matter of time before they come. And I remember that old man, because I seen his face when I ran out of that loft. And I remember uh he came around the camper and he had his gun out, and he kind of just pokes around, looks around the back of the camper. I mean, because obviously they're thinking of breaking an inner. So they have their guns out. Sure. This isn't like you know, tasers, their firearms are out. Absolutely. And he pokes around. I see the barrel of the gun before I see his head, and I'm just looking, I mean, huge eyes. I'm just staring at him, just waiting for him to see me. And I like scared him, and he was like, he jumped. He was like, Get the fuck on the ground, just started screaming at me. I'm freaking out. I've never been in like this situation. There's 20 cops there, dogs, everything. Like, could you just just it's hard. I it's funny now, but it's like, dude, just imagine sitting there, and all you hear is dogs, cars slamming, people running, guns are out, and uh hand it up, tell me, you know, they're telling me uh they all back up once they see they just scatter back and then they're like marching out orders to get us out. And uh I get out and they're like, get on your knees and all that, put your hands on your head and all that stuff. And I did, and that old man is to this day, freaking slammed me to the ground. I mean hard. Like he was mad at me or something, but yeah, he slammed me to the ground and they're they're putting my hands, you know, behind my back and all that stuff, and then I'm sitting in a squad car. I still got gravel stuck to my forehead because I was just down on the ground. And uh he's like, You want to you want to tell me what's going on? I said, I don't know. I'm just out for a jog, bud. So that's that's that's what we're going with. I said, write it down, take a picture, do whatever you gotta do. I said, I was I was out for a jog. You know, I'm in this wanna be South Pole coat with a fur around the rim, white air forces, baggy pants, like just living that ghetto. Oh man, I was something. Yeah, and uh yeah, that was the first time I was 18, like a week after. Ended up spending I don't know, a couple three months, four months, six months. I don't know what it was. It was uh first experience, and it did nothing to me. Yeah, went to jail, got out, thought I was you know cool as crap, dude.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:38

Yeah, probably absolutely badass now. Time tested and telling you what, dude.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:43

I was Timmy Tough Knuckles. I'm telling you. But yeah, it I did nothing. So at a young age, I already went to jail and so I already had that mindset that you know I'm cool and jail's cool, and I'm a Billy, you know, badass.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:00

Any th any thoughts of like, well, already already did that, so now it's game time, do whatever I want to do, or not.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:07

Yeah, well, I thought um I thought I was smarter. I I always thought I was smarter than you guys.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:13

Uh you thought the cops would believe you're not jogging.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:17

Yeah, no, I just knew I just knew the situation. Yeah, like dude, I l I literally said, there's nothing I I'm in handcuffs, I'm going to jail. Yeah, like there's there's nothing that's gonna change this. Just take me to jail. Yeah, because at that time, I literally had no idea what was going on. I did not know they were trying to break into that place. Would I have been a part of it if I knew? Probably. I'm not saying I wouldn't have, but at that time I had no idea that's what was going on. Yeah, and uh I'm sitting in jail, and uh, I remember going to court. I'm like, dude, I'm getting out. This is this is the craziest thing. So we're in jail, we have court, we go to court, I tell the judge, I had nothing to do with it, all this stuff. Uh, I'm innocent, you know. Obviously, you're not, you're guilty because you're there. Yeah. What is it, guilty by association or whatever? But, anyways, I'm there. Crime was committed, and I'm telling this guy, dude, you know, like any other idiot up there, dude. I had nothing to do with it. I promise you, like I was, you know, and judge is asking, well, why were you there? You know, what do you want me to tell the judge that I was out for a jog out in BFE when it's like you know, negative 10? But yeah, and and the crazy thing is, is um then the guy that did do it uh went up there, told the judge, you know, Mr. You had nothing to do with this. Um it was all me. He was just with us, blah, blah, blah. The judge looked at him, and this is when like reality hit me a little bit while I was there of like when you're in trouble, um you're not given anything. Your your rights and everything are stripped right away. And the judge looked at that guy and said, You need to worry about yourself, not him. He pled guilty. He was like, he told me in line, he was like, I remember before we were sitting in there, I'm in this freaking jumpsuit that's like ten times too small, like look like baby gap. Put my arms up, you see my nipples. Like it was and they made me go to court like that. And uh he's like, dude, just admit to it. Like, we'll be out today. I said, No, I didn't do it. I said, No, you mean it's a crap. Uh he goes to court, admits to it, pleads guilt. He's out that day. Yeah, I mean, he gets out. I'm sitting in jail because I'm saying I didn't do it, because I really didn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:44

Uh so I sat there for a while and they ended up like I did a plea bargain, basically paid for the window, and they drop all charges on me. Uh, because obviously they had a confession of the kid that did it. But the crazy thing is that you know, sitting in there and then I get out, you would think, holy smokes, like I never want to be in there. I didn't ever mind Joe. Yeah, I was a mean person, I was a decently sized guy. You know, I already had the mentality, like I like going in there, I can tell why for some people that is the scariest thing in the entire world. I get it. I do, I get the process, I get the fear.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:25

Um but you've already lived the life.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:28

I already lived, I already lived that fear at you know, age five. Yeah, like anything that could make me fearful was already out the window. I wasn't scared of nothing at that time. Yeah, um, so jail was not something, and that's the the scary thing, is what people don't understand. When you live the life you live and you're brought up in the trauma and all that craziness, jail's not gonna do nothing for you. It's just boring, and that's all it was to me. It was boring. Yeah, you can't you don't know what's going on outside. That's it. That's the only thing that was just not fun. Um, but yeah, I I would say at night 18, jail, and then thought I was on top of the world and continued living the you know crap life for quite some time.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:16

What's kind of the next big moment or memory in that that season?

SPEAKER_04 2:05:21

Uh I ended up leaving the girl I had a kid with because I knew I knew I did not want to live that life, and I also knew she was never gonna leave that life. And if I stayed with her, I'm just gonna be that person. Yeah. Uh that I don't want to be the crappy, you know, parent, the parent that can't give their kid everything in the world because all they care about is drugs. I knew that. And I always told her that at a young like early in our relationship, as soon as our kid uh knows who dad is, I'm gone. And I did. I left. Um she she kept the kid? Or yeah. Like, well, well, obviously, I mean, in Indiana's a mom state. Yeah. Um and the mom's gotta be a royal piece of crap before a dad ever gets full custody, or they gotta, you know, agree to it. Obviously, the life I chose, shonna want money and she's gonna want the kid and all that. That's just how it goes. But she kept the kid for I don't know, maybe a couple weeks. Kid was always with me. Okay. Always. Um you're kind of bouncing back at mom's house then, or no, I had my own place. So um once I left there, I mean, I made really good money. Um, I don't know, $30, $40 an hour. You know, if if you hourly do it, sometimes $50, $60, depending on the check, because you get paid uh you get paid like eight something an hour, but you make all your money off bonuses and um really good money. So I could afford cars, house, stuff like that. So when I left, I already had my own place, and I ended up leaving, and um, and she got into the hard stuff and living with you know, hanging out and dating these guys while I'm trying to battle at that time. At that time, drugs are I turned away from them uh because I was so focused on getting my kid, and that was all I I cared about at the time. But yeah, I ended up um meeting at that time, I I would say a year, two years maybe I was by myself, single, you know, trying to, you know, go back and forth with her, and I ended up meeting my wife again. I ended

Reconnecting With Madison While Hiding

SPEAKER_04 2:07:43

up messaging her because I always try to hit her up like over the years, never worked. She just she was in college, she was two years younger a year younger than me. Oh man, I might screw this up. She's a year, yeah. She's a year or two. We got that part. Yeah. But I'd always hit her up, and I ended up, you know, message her on Facebook or something. She came over, hung out, never, never left, really, since then. Um at that point in time, I was battling with uh you know my first baby mama. She's in deep into the hard drugs. Uh I've tried to help her. I took her back in. Um, she basically screwed me over again, kicked her back out of my house because she was into meth at that time. Um, so here I am fighting, getting my kid. You know, my oldest son was living with me. He's probably three, three years old, two years old. Um, he's living with me, goes and sees her, is how I'd always say it. But she had full custody. I didn't give a crap. I was paying child support, um, but didn't care because I had my kid. Ended up meeting my wife, um Madison. I don't know if I'm allowed to say it's up to you. But yeah, I met Madison, and she's a super good girl, like drinks water, man that's it. Maybe would drink here and there at a young age, because you gotta think we met when I was 22, maybe 24, somewhere in there. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:25

Uh you guys had met when you were young, but now she's back in the picture at like 22.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:29

Yeah, like I said, freshman year of high school, she was obsessed with me. Uh had all my she she she'll tell you still to this day. So she had all my uh senior year pictures on her iPod.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:40

Like with back in the iPod days, yeah, yeah, buddy.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:43

Yeah, she had those. I'm serious, she was obsessed with me. Yeah, and uh, but yeah, we ended up that, and this is how crazy the world works is we went completely opposite ways. I went into the hard life, like we try to date before then, and I remember we went to a house and I started smoking weed, and she did not like that, like never would talk to me again. So all the times I'd hit her up again, didn't want nothing to do with me. Yeah, uh you you could just tell I was I was a different the life that I lived, it was a rush she went off to college, yeah. She went off to college and um I went my route, ended up having a kid and saying, Man, she would want nothing to do with me. Well, I ended up messing her and I was like, hey, you know, how you been? She actually just graduated college. And you know, we started talking and I was like, hey, you just want to hang out? Well, we ended up hanging out. She came to my house because I had my own, you know, literally my own house. Um, and I remember she came over and hung out. Um, and I was just thinking, man, I'm I'm not gonna do nothing with her. I'm not gonna treat her like, you know, a piece of crap or another, you know, screw or lay. And uh she came over, never left. Uh, you know, I told her had kids, you know, I had a a son at that time, and she was amazing. She was, you know, by far my saving grace, even at that point in my life, even though later on I kind of fell off deep. Um, but she came in, she was, you know, straight to, you know, my son, like a a a mother figure. I mean, right away.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:22

Uh like a mother that he deserved. It kind of reminded me of she was the same as the family that took me in. That's the life she was giving and the love she was giving to, you know, my oldest son.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:34

Yeah. So she sh she grew up in a structured home.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:37

Yeah. I mean, not into you know, the drugs and stuff. Like I said, she she maybe uh drank in college or whatever, something like that. Very normal. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but she didn't even know I was on drugs. Like I at that time I'm still getting prescribed pills. Um she never knew I was on 'em because you could never tell. I wasn't the type that would nod out and stuff like that. I was I didn't have the mood swings and stuff like that. But I was also behind scenes doing what I do, selling, buying, talking to the people that I'm talking to. But yet I'm I met her and I'm like, oh man, you know, the life that I want is achievable with her. And I knew that.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:22

So do you feel like kind of like you know, this debate of like honesty and hiding stuff, like and just kind of like had this facade around her, or like were you honest with any much of this at all, or not really with her?

SPEAKER_04 2:12:36

I no, I I hid I hid the the dark side of me for sure. Obviously, she knew, like I said, she knew of the fighting and the trouble because at that time when we first met, uh going back, so I always knew growing up I'd go to jail for fighting, knew that, would tell everybody that. Um and I ended up doing that before I met her. Um, I actually beat these guys up on the side of a highway. Uh beat them, beat them pretty bad, to be honest. Um, put one of them in the hospital. And uh so I'm looking at serious charges at this time. I already got arrested.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:16

It's like felony better.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:17

Oh yeah, oh yeah. Um skipped the misdemeanors, went straight to a felony. And then it was like a couple other misdemeanors or something. Anyways, it was like road rage, you know. Um, so when I met her, I was easy with it. Like I didn't know how to break it. Like she knew I was kind of in trouble, and then I'm like lying about, you know, the drugs and all this stuff and how deep I was. But I I even told her, I was like, hey, you know, I'm I'm thinking I'm going to prison at this time. I'm like, I'm you know, I'm at some serious charges. And uh um that's when we met and and then I think it was right before court or whatever, I was getting sentenced to where she's like, look, I'm not gonna leave you. Like, well, I'll wait. Um, I ended up getting house arrest out of it. I ended up dropping it from a five to a six, a felony. And then uh ended up letting me do house arrest or something crazy like that. Even though I had a house in Manchester, I had to have they gave me the crazy thing is they gave me three days to find a residence in the county that I was in trouble in and uh or I was gonna go to jail. So I ended up doing that, and that's how you know she stayed with me at my aunt's. I I went and moved in with my aunt and she moved with me.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:41

Yeah, just to get house arrest, so you're not in and up in jail.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then obviously eventually I got I was allowed to transfer back to the the place because I was still paying, I was paying for a house even though I was living with my aunt.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:55

You're so you got a conviction on that felony. How old were you? How old were you then?

SPEAKER_04 2:15:00

Twenty-one, twenty-four, twenty-three, somewhere in there?

SPEAKER_01 2:15:03

Somewhere in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:05

I would say twenty four, somewhere around there.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:09

So you're on so house arrest, probation, yeah. You're on paper. Did that help anything as far as like the the pills and that kind of stuff, or not really?

SPEAKER_04 2:15:20

No, because I basically manipulated the person that was in charge of the house arrest, so I never stopped. Okay. Uh we go into that at all. Uh I don't I don't care. So I manipulated her. Um basically real quick.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:37

Is this your first time like on paper at this point?

SPEAKER_04 2:15:40

Yeah. Not the first time I went to jail, but the first time like there's repercussions of my actions for sure. Uh I was true to it for maybe like two weeks, and you know, being uh master because I was a master manipulator, I really was. It came with the lifestyle that I lived. Uh I was young, good looking, quick with my words, could weasel my way out of anything. And I was just like, screw it, give this a shot. It's either gonna work or fail. And that's kind of the the life I lived my entire life. Basically, you know, uh fired my shot and it it worked. I mean, um, I ended up sleeping with her. It's like probation officer. Yeah, community correction. Okay, like head honcho.

House Arrest And Manipulating The System

SPEAKER_04 2:16:29

Yeah, uh, don't get any higher. Yeah. Uh so I did. Basically, slept with her. There was never no motive of like trying to be in a relationship. I had one motive, and that was if I can get her to cross this line, I can do whatever I want. Yeah. Um, the drugs, everything like that. Because I was still I was prescribed drugs, so I could only do one. But when and I had to live in the county that I got in trouble in, which, like I said, living at my aunt's paying for a house that's empty. No like bummer. So I ended up manipulating her. And I I take most of the blame for it. I really did.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:16

Uh, but I mean it's a 50-50 though, still.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:20

Yeah, yeah. I I made the first jump, yeah, but um, I mean, I I just can't believe it because the position she's in, the person that she is, and stuff like that, and it worked. So then I am Madison was just done with college, and she was basically like, Hey, you know, I'm not gonna live uh there anymore. So I was like, okay, let's move you back and fully move her in with me. Well, so we're moving her stuff into my house in a different county because I'm living over here in this county because this is where I'm in trouble. I'm on house arrest. And I already get, and then I finally get to transfer back to my home because obviously I'm heading on and um so we'll kind of recap here, make sure I got all this right.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:11

So catch a first felony, get a conviction, end up on house arrest. You're you had a house of your own, but you moved in with your aunt in the county in which you got in trouble. Yeah, that way you could actually get the house arrest.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:26

Yeah, because that at the first it was legit. Like the judge was like, you know, they it's weird, they sentenced me, and I thought I was going to prison. They literally sentenced me to, you know, um, I don't know what it was, freaking a year and a half or something, DOT or something like sent me where they instantly put handcuffs on me because I went in there, obviously on my own, regular street clothes, bam, instantly handcuffed me while I'm in after he sentenced me. I'm like, dude, I'm cut. Yeah. Then the judge came in or went down, talked to that house arrest. I was like, hey, this kid's never been in trouble. Can we can we do that?

SPEAKER_01 2:19:03

He's cute, I'll take him.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:05

Had to, you know what I mean? Had to, and because at this point, I'm plastered all over five different counties on the front page. I'm on news, I'm on everything, you know, road rage, all this stuff with my mug shop.

SPEAKER_01 2:19:18

And uh so your girlfriends, you guys weren't married at the time, so just my girlfriend. Now your wife is living. Did she move into your aunt's place? Yeah, okay, and now you're moving her back into your place.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:32

She kind of would jump back and forth a little bit, like she took care of my house back in the other county, and then you know, go to her mom's because we're I mean, we're surrounding counties, like we're not driving five hours apart. You know, where I lived was the surrounding county of where I got in trouble, and then where her parents lived was the other surrounding, so it was like a uh circle, but yeah, she was living there uh and at that time, like basically I I got deeper into stuff because I manipulated that person and I could do what I want. Like I went and moved my wife, well, girlfriend at the time, back home. That's like hour and a half, two hours away. I'm on house one snort, one shot, whatever your preference of doing it, gone right away. You feel like you feel like you're on top of the world. But that's the only good time of that whole entire addiction because you'll never get that high again. It just always downhill from there. Yeah. But yeah, started dabbling in that, ended up when I met Madison, she changed my life, uh, stopped, wasn't doing that.

SPEAKER_01 2:26:43

So I'd done some meth before she came back into your life and then stopped that.

SPEAKER_04 2:26:48

Maybe two, three times. First time I ever did it, I was with my aunt. Yeah. Um, you know, like I said, these are people that's supposed to love me, care about me, want the best for me. Um first time I ever did it was with my aunt.

unknown 2:27:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:27:03

And obviously him too, but she's the one that took me over there. Yeah. And I was like, all right, you know, because I didn't talk to the guy like that. Uh always knew him as around because it's my grandparents, it's where my grandma lived, my grandpa. Uh but she was like, Oh yeah, you know, he's got it. So we drive over there. I remember we drove over there together, went upstairs in my grandpa's house because he's passed away. So my grandma and grandpa kind of split, but they were together, but she lived in a different place because she couldn't stand his son, couldn't stand him. So she lived over there. So here I go. It's, I mean, this is what drugs do. I go to my grandfather's house that you know is sick. He hasn't, I guess I would say he hasn't passed away at that time. Sick, go over there. I'm in his house upstairs doing drugs. You know, hard drugs for the first time. Yeah. I was like, dude, you know, that's just it sucks. Yeah. But that was just part of it, I guess. Part of the addiction.

unknown 2:28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:09

So now you're on house arrest. Obviously, you've dabbled, you know, you know what these things are. Yeah. They've been a part of your life, they've not been a part of your life, they've been a part of your life, they've not been a part of your life. Um, how long are you on house arrest for? Over a year.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:29

Year and a half, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:30

You like kind of even though you're doing everything you wanted to do to successfully complete that to the in the judge's eyes.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had to. She had no choice.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:41

That's the thing, is I was still um, I'd tell her, hey, you know, I'm gonna fail. Fail this drug test because I knew I knew the days, they say it's random, but they see the dates. Like, and she would tell me, hey, you're on this. Uh, I remember one time where they uh she went on vacation or something, somebody else was overseeing me or whatever. Well, she didn't tell me they were overseeing, or they weren't supposed to be overseeing me, something like that. And uh I go in there and I'm sitting in her office, and dude, I'd go to the tanning bed. This is golfing. I did it all. Yeah, I did there was nothing I didn't do. I literally live life like I didn't have something on my ankle. Yeah, and I remember sitting in there and I hear, Holy shit, he has been. Look at where he's been. And I'm just like, oh man, dude, what I'm screwed. Um I'm cooked.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:38

Because this other person's looking up.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:39

Yeah, this other person. Well, she's had honcho, so she basically, you know, put him in check and used her authority, I would imagine, her ranking or whatever you call it, to shut him up and basically, you know, he had permission and all this stuff, blah blah blah. Because when I walk in there, uh he says, How how is the tanning bed? I just looked at him like, huh? Because I did. I just left the tanning bed before I got there. And uh I'm just looking at him like, what the hell? How do you know that? I was like, uh good, I guess. And then I go in the office, and then I I literally heard him because they can pull up a map and see all your pinging and stuff. Yeah. And basically mine looked like an ant maze. You know, I was all over.

SPEAKER_01 2:30:22

I went just living life.

SPEAKER_04 2:30:24

Yeah, I was all over Indiana. Yeah. And uh yeah, I was like, oh man, I'm in trouble. But I wasn't. Uh I ended up completing it at this time. I'm basically not sleeping with her. I only I only slept with her one time, and it was solely to get what I want, and that is what addiction and manipulation will do. I will destroy anybody's life. That's basically what I would have done to her. Destroyed her life if anybody ever found out that you know I ended up getting a house uh in the county like uh where my parent, my dad lived and stuff, ended up getting a house like that. I'm slowly trying to build my life because you know uh opiates are still my life, but not as hardcore. And I'm trying to get away from the town I was you know mainly in. Because I I thought all my problems were in the towns I lived in. So if I just kept hopping around, leave my problems there, it's no, no, but really it the problem was me. Yeah. Uh go to the a new place, new fresh start, got a nice house, you know, working, got a great woman, my kids with me most of the time, you know, only going to visit his mom maybe a couple days here and there. Uh life was amazing. I wasn't into the hard stuff. I was just strictly sticking to my opiates.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:44

So is Madison who's now your wife? Like, is she she second guessing or questioning anything at this point or not?

SPEAKER_04 2:31:52

No. She knows so she's so naive. And uh she eventually like would I I somehow mention to her about I snort him. I don't you know, and I give her this bull crap line of it's just so it gets into my blood system faster, and it's the doctor, you know, the doctor said and all this is how naive she is. She really did. So she would know, but I would never do it in front of her. Uh I would always, you know, crush it up and turn my back or go out to the garage uh and do it. So it was normal to her. You know, her boyfriend just was prescribed pain meds because he was injured. Yeah, because I did have legit injuries. I mean, I went to a specialist because there for a minute she thought I was you know full of crap and go to a specialist, and they're like, No, like he he should have surgery, uh, which was enough to you know continue to manipulate her. And sure, I mean, I was still heavy into the pills.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:53

You still doing Adderall at all then? Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:32:57

Anytime like working up north and stuff, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was I was still into the speed and stuff like that, but pills for sure. But I was living a nicer life, you know. It's basically living a false life, is what I was doing. Um painting a picture that wasn't true.

SPEAKER_01 2:33:19

What's kind of the next big memory, or maybe even like event with the cops, or uh I would say like I I was free with uh I got off house rest and I was good there.

SPEAKER_04 2:33:34

Um

NICU Trauma And Meth Return

SPEAKER_04 2:33:35

me and Madison ended up uh finally getting pregnant, uh, had a had our was having a boy. And at this time I'm see how that works. So she was pregnant, we were expecting a boy, or he was we didn't know at the time, actually. He was a surprise baby. You know, it's our first child together, supposed to be in a healthy You know, just totally different scenario than the first one I had. Hired like a photographer to do the pictures at birth, all this, because it's a surprise and all this. And we ended up uh she had a perfect pregnancy, full term, all that great stuff. And we ended up going there, and then like slowly but surely, everything started going south. And uh, we go in there, they're like, hey, you know, you're you're uh we're gonna have to, you know, maybe induce you or whatever. You're dilating, but not fast enough. And then we're sitting there, and then they're like, hey, we're gonna do this and dilate you more, and then uh she ended up getting to a point where she was like, Hey, I I do want the epidural and all that stuff, and we get there, and this is like it's a long process, and we have the lady that's supposed to do our pictures. We ended up going in there, like, hey, you might want to think about uh c-section because she's not dilating anymore. I think it was past five or something like that, and then which broke her heart because she wanted to have a natural birth. Um I can't, you know, wrap my head around why. But we're guys who don't understand about that, but yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that to me, I was just like, hey, you know, c-sections are the safest way because it's prepared, they know what's coming, all that stuff. So I was like, super okay with me. Broke her heart. I mean, destroyed her. So then why we're you know trying to get through that of the possibility, it went from they come barging in because all the things are beeping and going off to where uh there is no possibility we're we're going now. Yeah. Uh at the time uh his heart rate, I believe, spiked. And we're going in there. So mind you, she's never had a kid, so she doesn't really know the process. I have, I've already been through it. So we go back to this room, and you know, they're supposed to wait on me and all this stuff. They're they're not they're not putting off how serious it truly is. And I go in there and they already got her cut open. And uh thankfully she had an epidural because as fast as all this stuff happens, she wouldn't have been able to, which is just wild. So I go in there, she's already cut open. I'm trying to be there for her, she's shaking, just like I don't know, they call it the shock or something. I don't know. She's just constantly shaking. And uh have the kid pull it out. So mind you, we don't know the the sex. It's supposed to be, you know, they're supposed to tell us, and we're supposed to be happy. And they basically pull them out. Uh and then the guy that does like the epidural and all that, I don't know his correct name, but um, he's like, oh, it's a boy. That's all we get. Me, so there's a curtain, I can see past the curtain, she cannot. So I'm kind of sitting on the side, and do they flip this baby so fast, and there's always a uh like a team in there in case things go sideways. Well, they flip the baby, I'm not hearing them. I hear one little eh, that's it. Flipped him so fast, handed them off to those people. They put them in the little so I I know the process. You have the kid, they do everything, the the baby stays in the room. This bam, so fast. Baby was out, they took off. And I instantly knew what was wrong. Madison had no idea. She's like, Oh, how's he doing? And they're like, I was like, Oh, you know, they're just gonna go clean him up and stuff and bring him back. She has no idea what's going on. I already knew at that point in time something bad's happening. Well, the doctor comes in, they're like, hey, Zach, come with me. I'm like, all right, I come out of the room and I instantly ask her, I said, what is wrong with my son? And they're like, uh, well, he's just having a little problem adjusting it. And I literally said, I don't want to hear that bullshit. Is my son gonna live? She said, I don't know. So they take me into this, the room, like the I don't even know what they call it, but um, so he was born with two holes in his lungs. So that and it is the wildest thing I've ever seen in my life. But I walk in there, he looks like an alien, does not look like a baby, not the right colors, just doesn't, it's not, it's not right, it's not okay. And his chest is so when the babies are born, they don't obviously have bones like we do. So he has holes in his lungs. So basically, when he breathes, his chest would go flat to the table so fast. I mean, just so here I am, and they have like a hand thing on his face. So here they are pumping. I'm freaking out, thinking, you know, they they said they called for a helicopter, helicopter's coming, helicopter got delayed. I think it was weather, fog, or whatever. So they're like, hey, uh they called for an ambulance. So they bring this uh rocket ship. It that's what I called it. Looked like a cylinder freaking rocket.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:39:08

Uh brought it in. Anyways, I'm sitting there and they're like, hey, do you want to hold him? Because they're saying there's nothing else they can do. They think he's gonna die. I said, no, that's not my place. I said, uh, that's hers. Like she uh she carried him. That's she she deserves that, not me. At the time, you know, I would say everything kind of hit me like I'm a piece of crap, all the crap I did because even with her, I was never faithful with her. You know, I I slept with a probation person or house arrest lady. Always lied to her. I was constantly living in a lie, was never faithful. Um kind of all hit me right then and there. I was like, man, I you know, they asked me to hold him, and it's like I don't deserve that. Like I'm a piece of crap. So I was like, I just need to get back with her. Um because I didn't know what was going on. How I looked at it is I held his hand, he like I put my finger in his hand and he it just laid there. And I'm just thinking, holy crap, what about her? Like, because she's naive, she's never been in a here, she is in an operating room by herself, shaking, uh, nobody's in there. Um so I go back there and the doctor was like, hey, I'll help you tell her. And I said, You're not gonna say a word to her. Uh she's like, Well, and I said, Nope. I said that's not you're not gonna say nothing, you're just gonna shut up. And we go back in the room, I walk in there, and so I'm bawling, you know. Uh our family's there. They nobody knows how serious this is. I am the only person in the in the mix of this. Uh I'm bowling, going down the hallway, everything, wipe my face off, and just shut it off, just like that. Walked in the room, smiled at her, and she, you know, her first words was, you know, how how's my how's my boy? And I'm I said, he's doing great. I said, they're just you know cleaning him up, adjusting a little bit of things. I said, you'll get to see him soon enough. She's like, I just want to hold him. I said, you will. And that right there, just I don't know, it screwed me up so bad. Um clean it up, you know, I'm sitting there with her and she's just shaking like something I've never seen before, and she can't control it. Uh so she's shaking, and then the doctor come back in and they're like, Hey, uh Zach, you need it, you need to come here. I said, No, I like I I'm thinking they're gonna tell me he died. And I said, No, I get it. I said, We'll talk here in a little bit. And she's like, No, you you really like the baby's doing great. I said, Ah, stop that. I said, You're not gonna do that. Because I'm thinking she's like trying to be a part of the lie now or whatever. And it's like, all right, you know, you're taking a little too far. Uh she's like, no, no, no, no, really, come here. And so I go out there. One of the holes closed on its own, which I don't know how. And but he had color and his chest was not smacking. I've tried to Google I've I've tried so much to to try to show somebody to understand how that chest was just you know, full, flat, so fast. And I I couldn't, and uh I ended up going there and he had color, and I was just like holy crap. Uh, but he still had issues, uh, but he didn't look like death. Like then we ended up going in there and then we tell Madison, like, hey, he's gotta go. So still at this time, Madison's like, no worry in the world because nobody sh like hinted the seriousness of this. Like, hey, he's just having a problem and adjusting to the world. It like nothing serious. We're just gonna take him to the NICU. Like, okay, well, while we're waiting on the ambulance, they you know, they go in there, they bring it, bring him in into a little cylinder, and it's really why I have I have a tattoo right there. It's a it's a rocket ship, and that's basically like tattoos and stuff. That's what it all, it's like my life, my kids, and stuff like that. But it they brought him in in this little rocket ship, and uh we have a picture. So this lady that we hired captured all this stuff. Still to this day, I cannot look at those pictures.

SPEAKER_01 2:43:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:43:39

Um, just because I was just I don't know, it's hard. Yeah. Uh but you know, I was standing above her, she did get to hold him for the first time, which um would be he was a boy, he was my uh s second to oldest. Um but yeah, she did get to hold him, which was like the best thing of my life. Well at this time, I should, I guess, back up. At this time, we have custody of my oldest. Okay. Um, so there's still a life that needs taken care of back home. Madison is in one hospital, our baby's in another, my other son's in another, three different counties. Um, and here I am supposed to work. Uh so we're taking breast milk from the hospital to up to the NICU. I'm getting to see the baby. You know, you see him in this little freaking neon lights, just crazy. He's got all this stuff hooked up to him. I'm trying to go back, be there for her, take care of that, go back, take care of, you know, my son and all that stuff. So basically, I'm I'm exhausted at this point. I mentally messed up to where I didn't even know that I was, you know, traumatized and had the trauma with it. I would say, wrong friend, right friend showed up at the wrong time, or wrong friend showed up at the right time, however you want to word that, uh, introduced me back into the meth. And at that time, I'm in, I am exhausted. Um everybody want me to pull this way, this way. I'm just I'm tanked. I'm out. Um ended up doing it. I thought I was on top of the world, and that is really where like it began, you know, the dark side. Uh Madison is dealing with the trauma and the hurt and all what she's going through as a mother, first child. We're in the NICU. Um and here I am being a piece of crap.

SPEAKER_01 2:45:46

How long was he in the NICU? Two weeks, three weeks. Uh you're already using mass during that time.

SPEAKER_04 2:45:53

Yes. Uh, about I would say maybe a week while he was there. Yeah. Uh I started getting into the hard stuff because I'm I'm just exhausted. Uh not justifying it. I'm just saying that that's how it happened. And um that's what I say is the devil works in the craziest ways, any way he can. Sure. Um, and it got a hold of me again. Um, and and I feel like now that I look at it is God gave me so many opportunities to continue to follow him. He never turned his back on me through all this. He was always there. I felt like now that I see my journey, I've had so many breaks to where he tried to grab a hold of me and show me the way, but he'll never force you that way. Um, because I I I just know in my journey that I've had gaps to where it's like, dude, I had an opportunity to change my life and I didn't. I screwed it up, went deeper. So it's like to me, God will show you you got to lose a little bit more, you got to go a little bit deeper. You gotta, you know, He would take this from you, or this would happen, and I didn't take that opportunity to change my life. So it's like, man, I'm still not understanding. So here I am, this far in life, to where I have a beautiful life. I have a nice house, nice cars, nice job, make good money, have my son. Um had everything that should have changed your life. Uh but it didn't. Uh, I just started getting into the drugs. Uh, Madison, like I said, she is so naive. And when I mean this is she's such a great person. She really is. And I manipulated her more than I've ever manipulated any person or anything in my life. And so she, you know, we finally come home. We have all this stuff. Our kid's been poked more times than anything I could think of. Um, he ended up the other hole closed, but then he ended up getting uh virus or something and about dying again. They're trying to, you know, he turned yellow. They're trying to figure out, they're doing all these tests, never figure out what the heck is going on. So we're in and out of, so you're only in the NICU. Once you leave the NICU, you never go back, you go to PEEDS. Um, so we're in and out of Pede's. I don't know, maybe for their on and off for the first year or two of his life. Yeah. Uh, to where we're well known. Like we know all the staff, like they know what we like, know what we want. Uh, and the whole time she's dealing with that. Um, you know, the PTSD and just dude, the mental thing that she had to go, I couldn't imagine what she had to go through. And here I am manipulating her and making it worse because of the drugs that I were on. And she had no idea what was going on. You know, I was staying up all night. Uh, I'd lay in bed until she goes to bed, and then I'm up. And then by the time she gets up, she'd be like, Oh, you're you're already up. And it's like, yeah, I got up a little bit early, couldn't sleep, you know, lie, all this bull crap.

SPEAKER_01 2:49:09

No idea that you stayed up all night.

SPEAKER_04 2:49:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:49:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:49:11

Yeah. No idea. I've ran around all over town, done this, done that, and now here I am back home. It's like a, you know, when the night hit, I was out. I was gone. Yeah. Uh, and then she started catching glimpse of it, uh, questioning it and stuff like that. And um, you know, she would find on my phone, I was talking to girls, I was doing this, the drugs. She thought I was on hard drugs, but she could never prove it. And I screwed her up. The how I screwed her up the most is she had a drug screen she got from my older brother's. At this time, my family don't want nothing to do with me. Like they all turned their backs on me. You know, I'd go over to my brother's and pass out for two straight days, just on his sofa, bent backwards in the weirdest spot. And it's like literally slept for 24 straight hours. Uh but yeah, it was that, and she how I screwed up, she got a drug test from my older brother because he ran stores to where he'd do it for his employees. Gave me a drug test. So, how drug tests work, obviously, you guys probably well aware of that. You pee in a cup, there's multiple different styles. You can do a dipstick, all that stuff. But this one was the style to where you would pee in it and you'd push the side in, and then uh it would read the results, it would let the urine get down in there. Well, she's like, I know you're on this, I've seen this. So I got I got dope one time, and I say dope, I was in meth. So I got this meth, and it was fake. I got sold fake stuff. It was I don't even know what the heck it was, but it was like this freaking crystal that looked like meth before you break it up. Dude, it was like, I don't know what the heck it is. I still don't. It was plastic or something polished. So she's like, I know it is, it's this. And she would find my pipes here and there because I'd always smoke it. Smoke it or snort it, never shot it. Uh and then I was like, oh no, you know, she'd find these pipes. What are these pipes for? Blah. She's like, I know it's not for weed because she knew I smoked weed and I'd do my pills and stuff. I was like, Oh, it's to smoke, you know, my Adderall. I don't know if you if anybody ever knows, but try smoking Adderall, see what happens. I think catches on fire. So here I am. I chop one up for her because she's starting to catch on. Uh, I'm not going to bed. Weight loss is, you know, there. But I was never the type that you could, you honest to God, you would not know I was on it if I didn't drop weight. You wouldn't. I didn't, you know, geek out my windows, you know, talk to demons. I didn't do any of that kooky stuff. And uh we're sitting there and I'm like, oh yeah, you know, the pipe, she's finding my pipe, she's finding, you know, little thing, my baggies and stuff like that, my torches. But, you know, I built cars, so it was normal. I was like, oh, the torches are for the wire, you know. And then I was like, um, I start getting into that, and I'm like, hey, uh, you know, I break up that Adderall and I put it in there. I'm not kidding you. I smoked that sucker, but dude, it was a bombfire. I I lit it up, and I'm not kidding. That sucker caught on fire, dude, and did things I've never seen. Because obviously I've never done that. I knew it wouldn't work. I was like, Oh yeah, see, this is how it does. And I put some water in it, thing your eyebrows off, dude. It just shot a flame out the top, and I was like, I took a hit up and I said, See, that's what it's for, and put it away. And she's like, you know, I'm serious. My wife is so good, she's so naive. She's like, Oh, okay. Like, idiot. Yeah, you know, and I was like, Oh, yeah, man, another success to my manipulation. And then she pulled out that drug test, like maybe months later or whatever. And uh, like I said, at this time we have full custody of my son, uh, because his mom, and this is the wild thing, is because she got into the same drug that I am now in. And uh, but we already went through the courts. We have I have full custody of them, everything like that. So, and she is the best mom that I could ever imagine for any of my kids. And I never had the stuff around my kids, never had it in my house, none of that stuff, never had it in my car with my kids. I did it by myself, like isolated. And it was to cover up all the pain and all the stuff that I was going through. And it's not just what happened recently. This, you know, what I've learned, this stuff goes all the way back, you know, to your childhood. And um, it just balls up and I exploded. And I'm I'm doing it, and she gives me that drug screen, and we're talking, she's like, and I'm cooked, dude. I am screwed if I do this drug screen, like the right way. So I'm sitting here talking, and I have Gatorade. I'm like, okay, I need something to drink. And uh I take the Gatorade, I'm drinking it, I'm drinking it. She's she's sitting like as close as we are, looking right at me, not taking her eyes off me. And I'm like, let me see the drug test, see how much I have to pee. Because I have to pee right now, I just don't know if it's enough. She gives me a drug test, and it's a cup, and like I said, it's a cylinder, you gotta push in. I'm sitting there talking to her, talking to her, and she looks away for a split second. What I did was I had Gatorade, I spit into that cup real fast, just spit in it, and as we're talking, I'm pushing that push pin. So the drug screen is reading the Gatorade. Yeah, comes up all negative. Once it's already read, it can't reread. Uh once you already have a double line, you can't take it away. But, anyways, it already read. So then we go to the bathroom. She's like, I want to watch. So she literally watched piss come out into this cup, but it already read. It already read the drug screen. I'm clean. So I pee in this cup, turn it to her, she looks at it, it's all negatives. I seen the life come out of her because at this time I've already manipulated her family. Her family hates me. I was taking pills from her stepdad, you know, rock, like taking them from him, uh, going into their house, you know, while we're having family time, taking them. So I'm already burning bridges. I'd burn them, I'd burn anything for drugs. I'm going to my dad's taking, you know, their grandkids' freaking uh medicine and stuff. They're blaming it on my oldest brother. All that just the amount of hurt I did is stealing stuff at this time too, or

Faking A Drug Test At Home

SPEAKER_04 2:55:49

yeah. I would I would say I didn't start the stealing stuff until right here, like when me and Madison are going through what we're going through.

SPEAKER_03 2:55:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:55:57

I had friends bringing me stolen stuff, stuff like that but I never got into the theft like I haven't had I haven't gotten to the legal side of like the hard stuff yet because Madison we're going back and forth and when I showed her that drug strain the life like I watched it it came out of her because she didn't know she was she would have given her life up to bet that I was on meth and when I showed her that drug strain and she watched me peeing it and it came up negative it's mind blown because just that night she just didn't know what to do. Yeah just that night she seen messages of us talking in code language and um she found the fake meth that was crystal and I showed her I was like dude what what do you mean this is plastic because really that's all it was. Thankfully she found that uh the pipe you know bomb fired the freaking Adderall so she had all the evidence to to you know pinpoint that I am doing meth right now and then when I do a drug screen right in front of her what else are you supposed to think? Yeah um and it and it shows up negative so it screwed her up so now now she believes me I'm gonna manipulate her to the fullest now now her now she can go fight for me for her her family even though I'm already kicked out of uh her parents' house because on my birthday which would have been my 26th birthday 25th somewhere around there I proposed to her uh most beautiful thing really loved it um she thought everybody was there for my birthday but it wasn't I proposed to her and so we're engaged at this time how old's your guy how old's your second son he's probably one at this time not even one okay um and then my oldest is probably five so they are yeah I would say around there they're six years apart okay um but yeah so he's you know I'm going back and forth she's fighting for me now because her family would already not piss on me if I was on fire in fear to put me out yeah no they had dude they had every you know right in the world to to feel the way they did um they just wanted her away from me is all they wanted and now that I proved her wrong now she's gonna turn on her family and that's what I wanted I wanted anything that corrupted or made Madison not believe me to get away from her to get out of her life. Mom about caused her mom and only you know her stepdad that's been in her life her entire life almost a divorce over this which is super sad. My family basically I mean half of them are you know into the stuff themselves or into a life and they don't you know the other half don't really care about me already turned their backs on me. Instead of helping me they were you know putting me down. But I understand they didn't know how to help. And at that time there was no helping me you're you're not helping somebody that don't want it. Yeah and I I can preach that all day long.

SPEAKER_01 2:59:25

I've lived it um do you like expand upon that say for the the parent that or the family member that's like or loved one that's got someone that's addicted like that idea that you can't help someone that doesn't want help it just seems like a like an impossible statement to the person that sees this addict going through these issues.

SPEAKER_04 2:59:47

You seem helpless you seem like it's because you you have so much emotion involved in love to where you don't want to let go but you have to that I mean you can only do so much you do not want it to start destroying your life and affecting your life because all I would do is destroy your life with mine and keep going I would never look back and help because I have one goal and one goal only and that's my drugs. If I can manipulate you I would if you have something that would better my life in my you know crap situation I'm not sure I'd take it so I don't really get super mad at my family about it. It does hurt that they did that because I was always the guy that they would go to you know I'm in high school working summer jobs I bought my brother his first car I would buy my brother groceries because he already had kids and a family at that time I was using my paychecks to support him I've always anybody in my family could call me and I'd be there. I would give you know my brother got in a freaking crash or something DUI back in his crazy days and you know I'm out on felony bond and I'm telling him hey I was driving you know potentially getting a leaving the scene of an act just crazy stuff to where I'm always giving to them and then the time that I needed them I didn't get nothing. I got kicked to the curb trash talked me uh did everything but help me but I will say there's nothing they could have done that like they couldn't help me. Yeah um but not everybody gets to you know be here and understand that and and look at that because most people that want to keep helping and helping all you're doing is enabling them like you you're just feeding into their addiction. So you're just as bad as they are especially when you're aware of it. When you know the money that you give them or the help that you give them where it's going by just saying I I'm just trying to keep them alive and all that that's BS. It really is it's BS if if you're trying to keep them alive then turn them into the law. Let them sit in there. They have you you you have only two options that's to get help or you're gonna end up in a cell or a box. I mean so three options that's that's your three options. When you're so far down in the dumps and your future all you're thinking about is not retirement or being the old people sitting on a you know porch drinking coffee. All my future looked like was prison or death that that's all I had. Yeah I I mean there's I got so deep into it you know to where I would sit there and count how many people would show up to my funeral. Yeah I just didn't care. And that's where the you know got deep into it and then you know got into the the legal side yeah because Madison ended up um she left me.

Enabling Addiction And Part Two Tease

SPEAKER_04 3:02:57

Yeah she got her own place which rightfully so I don't blame you.

SPEAKER_01 3:03:01

She took both kids with her?

SPEAKER_04 3:03:02

She did. Yeah uh even though the one you know I had full custody I had all power and that's the thing is I knew what I was doing was not okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:03:10

Yeah it's like God always had you know one hand on me but like I said he does not he he leads you to the doors and the opportunities but he he doesn't force you to do them and I I didn't you know my my son deserved to be with her that was the best place for him the safest place she was and that's what kind of made it a little bit worse I would say because I knew my kids were taken care of uh she at this point you know knows I'm into drugs uh you can only hide it for so long yeah when you say like her her leaving taking both kids like now it's like full no strings attached like oh dude it was like you know chains were ripped off I am hell on wheels now yeah um it was nothing holding me back well I hope you join us for part two on this interview uh man we really start going deep deep deep into you know the pit of addiction and what that truly looks like and crime and running from the cops and burglary and police chases and you know gets down to trying to take his own life and then ultimately what does treatment and recovery look like now he's you know been sober for over five years and so we really start diving into um what does that look like to rebuild a life when you've gone that low for that long and I just hope you'll join us for part two and uh it's fascinating to hear his story and and just to see you know how God's worked in his life and continues to work in his life.