Episode 10: Presentations, Too Many Directions and Shipping Artwork

In this episode of The Creative Couch, I respond to three thoughtful creative dilemmas from Magdalena, Carrie and Jennifer – exploring public speaking nerves, feeling pulled in too many creative directions, and the practical realities of shipping artwork.

Magdalena reached out after hearing me talk about that moment of self-awareness when you suddenly realise you’re the one leading the room. With a presentation coming up, she’s feeling anxious about being the focus of attention and how to manage the pressure that comes with it. How do you stay steady when all eyes are on you, and how do you work with nerves rather than against them?

Kari is preparing for a group exhibition and finds herself developing three different bodies of work at once. The direction that excites her most also feels the most uncertain, leaving her torn between playing it safe with work she knows will resolve, or taking a risk on something more personal. Alongside this, she’s struggling with comparison, as others around her seem to produce finished, saleable work with ease. How do you commit to a direction when time is limited, and how do you protect the work that matters most?

Jennifer feels ready to begin selling her artwork, but is held back by the practical challenge of shipping. She’s unsure how to safely package different types of work, whether it’s safe to roll pieces, and how to approach charging for postage. How do you confidently send your work out into the world, knowing it will arrive safely?

In this episode, I explore:

• Why self-awareness can suddenly turn into nerves when you’re being seen, and how to reframe that moment
 • The difference between teaching and presenting, and how to approach each with more ease
 • How to separate developing new work from preparing for an exhibition
 • Why the most meaningful work often feels the least resolved
 • Simple, practical ways to package and ship different types of artwork
 • How to keep shipping and pricing straightforward without overcomplicating it

Each dilemma is explored with both emotional insight and practical steps you can try in your own creative life.

If you have a creative dilemma you’d like me to explore, please email me at:

thecreativecouchpod@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Creative Couch. I'm Sam Marshall, artist and creative coach. This is a podcast about creativity, confidence, and living a creative life. Hello and welcome to the Creative Couch. We are here on this Monday morning. She's here, she's on my lap, don't worry. Those of you who are on Zoom, you can see her on my lap. So it's a lovely Monday morning, the sun is shining, and it's the start of a brand new week. I'm looking out to my garden. I can see all the timber on the garden for my new studio, all the beautiful oak. Um, it's come to a bit of a halt at the moment because the builders are waiting for the cladding to arrive. So what was going great guns are suddenly kind of ground to a halt. Anyway, it's still very exciting. Um, and I'm not I'm not bothered if they take their time. I'm in no rush. So uh yeah, anyway, so that's where I am at the moment. Had an etching workshop this weekend, which went really well. I've got a multi-block workshop coming up this weekend for two days, so that's exciting. So lots to prepare for. It's very busy here at Hollytree Cottage headquarters, as it always is. Um, but once again, thank you for your dilemmas that have come in this week. Lovely set of dilemmas. Do keep sending them in, please. I um I need more, I need more to keep this podcast running. Um, so yeah, do send them in, but thank you to everybody who sent them in this week. So today I'm answering Magdalena's, I'm answering Carrie's, and I'm answering Jennifer. So Jennifer sent in uh uh a bunch of dilemmas, um, but I'm just answering one of Jennifer's dilemmas today. Uh otherwise it will be going on for quite a while. And I've got to wrap this up by quarter past 12 because I've got a uh a coaching session. Anyway, let's move on. Right, Magdalena. Magdalena got in touch because she said that um she saw one of my Instagram stories or posts where I talked about that sudden moment of awareness when you realise that you're the one leading the room, like I talked about when I was in France a few weeks ago. Um, I was teaching this wonderful group of women, and suddenly I had this moment of like, oh my goodness, I'm supposed to be leading this. And I think those moments that happen when you're teaching or when you're giving a presentation can be really alarming because you suddenly become really a hyper-aware of yourself. Um, and she's got a presentation coming up, and she's feeling anxious about it for exactly that reason when you realize that all eyes are on you and you become very aware of yourself. She describes that set that kind of pressure that comes with being the person at the front and is asking how to cope with the nerves and self-consciousness that can show up in those moments. So this is a great dilemma, and um, I'm gonna answer it from a teaching point of view, and I'm also gonna answer it from a presentation point of view. Um, and it's actually been really helpful for me to think about this because I'm doing a book signing in Whitby at the end of the week, and I'm gonna have to give a talk. So um, it was quite helpful for me to think about this and think about how I prepare myself for these um sort of events. Anyway, so the emotional layer behind this is actually very understandable, isn't it? At any time you have to get up and do something in front of other people, there's going to be um uh a feeling of vulnerability. You know, you're standing up there and you're giving a presentation or giving a speech, and there's going to be nerves because you've got this sea of faces in front of you, and they're all looking at you um with kind of expectation, and there's a pressure on you to deliver. Um, and I think that is inevitably going to cause nerves. But I think the thing is I think that the important thing to remember is that the nerves show that you care. If you didn't care, there wouldn't be any nerves, and you just go up there and say anything. So you're starting from a good foundation here. The fact that you're nervous, I think, shows that you care. And I'll go back to something we talked about right at the beginning of these podcasts about you know, reframing the nerves as as excitement. You know, instead of saying I'm really nervous, you could actually say to yourself, I'm really excited about this presentation, because I think the way that you talk about your feelings can actually affect how you're feeling. So, you know, I'll always go into a situation like teaching or or giving a talk saying, you know, I'm feeling I'm feeling excited because that helps me sort of settle into it a little bit better. Um and I think the main point to remember here is that people are there because they want to be there, they're not waiting for you to fail, they're not waiting for you, they're not waiting for you to mess up and to laugh at you, they're there because they want to be taught by you, or they're there because they want to hear what you've got to say. If you remember that and think about them as being your friends in front of you, I think that can take the pressure off a bit. So let's talk about the practical layer. And I'm going to talk about teaching first, then I'll talk about giving presentations. Um, so teaching for me is always very much about creating an environment. You know, I've always based my teaching on good teaching that I've experienced in the past and bad teaching that I've experienced in the past. So I have crafted my way of teaching through many years of being taught. So I have a very um, I've got a very welcoming way of teaching. I'm somebody who likes to create a very safe environment, a very comfortable environment environment, a very a very relaxed environment. Um, so I will always start my teaching sessions with introductions. So I'll always say, could we just take a moment to introduce ourselves? Just so that you know I get an indication of where people have come from, what level they're at, and also just a really nice way for everybody to get to know one another, get to know their names. So I'll always start off with the introductions and I will always say that I'll always set the tone. So I'll always say something like, you know, we're here to have some fun, there's no pressure from me, we're just you know, let's spend a few hours together making marks on paper or printing or whatever. You know, I always say, no pressure, no pressure from me, you know, I don't want any tears. I don't I probably I say that quite a bit because you know, there has been tears in workshops before when people's work hasn't gone the way that they wanted, you know. So I set the tone, I come in. Um, you know, I'm very comfortable teaching now. I've been doing it for so long that I it it doesn't phase me teaching. But, you know, um, I think that these things, if you can anchor yourself, if you can have a kind of a little bit of a routine that you do when you're teaching, I think that can give you a sense of structure and help you feel like you you've already got a solid base to start with. Um and then as soon as you've done that, then that you know, and you've done your demos or or whatever it is that you're doing, you know, get get take the focus off yourself and get people involved so that the more that they're doing, the less it feels like you're being watched. You know, just just get them making as soon as you can so that then, you know, then they start to learn off one another, then the conversations start to happen, and you then don't become this person at the front dictating what's happening, but you're the person who's weaving in and out of the um the creativity that's going on. You know, keep it conversational, you know, keep it light-hearted. Again, it depends on what teaching environment you're talking, you're talking about. I mean, I only teach adults now, I don't teach children. Thank goodness. Um, I've done my time. Um, and and the thing is with teaching, you're guiding, you're not performing, you're just guiding, you're there to lend a hand, you're there to offer your expect uh expertise, and it will never be perfect, except that it's going to be messy, except that things go wrong, except that materials aren't going to be there, or you know, somebody's going to turn up half an hour late and you have to slightly repeat yourself again. All of those things are going to happen, and you just have to cope with it the best you can. So I think that's it, you know, with teaching, you know, develop your own way, understand what kind of teacher you are, and make that clear. I will always say, I make it clear, people who come to me to for my workshops, to my retreats, they come because they know what kind of teacher I am. And I think if you've been following me for a while, you'll know who I am, you'll know what kind of personality I have. You know, I am very generous, I am very supportive, I am very enthusiastic, you're going to get a lot of enthusiasm from me. And I like to create a very safe working space. I am not somebody who's going to tell you that you need to do it like this. I'm not somebody who's going to be really um directive with how I teach. Now, you you might want somebody who's more like that. You might want somebody who says, This is how you do it. I'm not going to be that person. I mean, obviously, with printmaking, it's different because there are definite ways of doing it, but with drawing, I don't do that. So you you you figure out who you are as a teacher, and I think then you get the the right kind of students who come to you for for that, you know. I mean, the people who love botanical uh I mean I say this because the person who was coming after me at um at Plos Mirabelle, you know, she was a botanical artist and botanical illustrator. You know, the people who're going to be attracted to her workshops are not necessarily the people who are going to be attracted to my workshops. So figure out what kind of teacher you are, figure out what kind of style you are, and then base your um your classroom uh energy around that, if that makes sense. Right, presentation. I've given lots of presentations in the past. I remember really clearly the biggest one I've ever had to do, and the kind of very early on in my teaching career was at the Royal Drawing School. I had to give a presentation to the foundation group that I was teaching. So sorry, to the foundation. Um it was uh like an open day, and we had, oh my goodness, loads of students, prospective students. We had loads of prospective students, um mums and dads, and I had to give the presentation, and I was really nervous, and I prepared and I prepared, and I I I you know I spoke the presentation out aloud, I recorded myself, I videoed myself, I got my um I got some friends to come and watch me. So I I went overboard with that, and and it did go really well, but I was really nervous, and I think that almost going into the deep end of having to present present like that with loads of people, actually, once I'd done that, I became much more confident of doing doing it. But I think the thing is practice out loud, practice speaking rather than just reading, practice speaking out loud. Um, and that makes a huge difference. And I do think recording yourself is really, really helpful as well because you get to realise you know the things that perhaps you uh you stumble on or things that you repeat. I mean, it's interesting me watching back these podcast episodes because I realise there's certain things that I keep repeating, um, and I want to try to be a little bit more mindful not to do that. So record yourself, that really helps. Know your opening, you know, know your first few sentences. And I would always say, don't stick rigidly to what it is that you've written. Like with me, I mean, I make copious notes for all of these podcast sessions, but I go off track, you know. I kind of something will come to me while as I'm talking, and I like to kind of incorporate that into um what it is that we're talking about. So, you know, have your structure and have your timings, but allow yourself to deviate if if things go a little bit off track. Um, one of the one of the biggest things I can say is make yourself human early on. So even if it's your first presentation, I think I did that presentation, I just said, look, this is the first time I've ever done anything like this. I'm really nervous or excited or whatever. I can I think I said, just be gentle with me, you know. And and that, you know, everybody laughed. I immediately felt like people had got my back, and then I was able to deliver the presentation in the best way that I could. Um and and focus your attention. I think this is important, but it it it's all very nuanced, this isn't it, but focus your attention on what you're saying and not how you're being perceived, because I think it you can easily get direct derailed by looking for people's uh reaction to what it is that you're saying. And it could be the case that you say something, you look at somebody's face, somebody looks disinterested, and suddenly you start spiraling to, oh my goodness, that person looks disinterested. I'm obviously not doing what I should be doing, I'm obviously saying the wrong things. So try and keep your focus on what it is that you're saying. You know, absolutely scan the room, but don't try and get derailed by people who look disinterested, because you will always get people who look disinterested. You will always get that. You will always get people who are just kind of like staring into space or you know, looking down, or and that's not but they probably are listening. Maybe no, no, maybe not, but you will have people who are listening. I mean, they always say, don't they, when they you're giving public uh public um uh public talks or you know, you're speaking publicly to kind of you know address your audience, you know, make eye contact with people. And I do tend to do that. I I do a scan at the at the start, and I think, right, I've got eye contact with that person, that person's reacting when I say things, you know. So so do have people, I would say, in the audience that are genuinely responding to you, but don't take it personally if there's somebody falling asleep. I haven't ever had that, but you know, there's still time. Um so if you have a reset point, so I would always say if you do lose your thread, then always have something that you can keep coming back to, if that makes sense. Have a sentence that might just kind of give you that anchor and kind of help you um get back on track. How are we doing for time? We're okay, right? Um, so homework, rehearse it, rehearse it out loud. That's the first thing. Record yourself, present it or present it to a friend, write and learn your opening lines and decide your tone in advance. Again, a bit like the teaching style. Decide how you want to come across. Does it do you want it to be informal? Do you want it to be formal? Do you want it to be engaging? Do you want it to be funny? etc. Um, and anticipate that fact that suddenly you will have that moment where you are thinking, oh my goodness, everybody's looking at me. But just recognise it and move on. Don't feed into it, just think, oh my goodness, you know, I I can suddenly see myself being watched. It it will go, the the feeling will pass, and you'll move on through it. I'm sure you're going to be brilliant, Magdalena, if it hasn't already happened. So thank you for that. That was a great dilemma. Okay, so Carrie, now this is a really juicy one, Carrie, and thank you for sending it in. Um, there's lots of layers to this. So I've tried to, I mean, I could just talk about this dilemma all throughout the whole podcast, but I've tried to kind of condense it down and keep it to the main points as to what it is I think you're saying, and hopefully give you some guidance. Okay, right. So Carrie is preparing for a group group exhibition in July. Okay, so just remind, let's just remind ourselves where we are now. So we are now at the end, almost at the end of April. Carrie is presenting, is preparing for a group exhibition in July and feels pulled in multiple creative directions. She currently has three different bodies of work on the go, some looser planaire oil studies, a more developed series of Australian magpie paintings, and a newer, more experimental body of work exploring darker, enclosed bush environments using charcoal and oil. She says that the challenge is that the third direction is the one that she feels most excited by. It feels more personal and pushes her work somewhere new, but it's also the least resolved and feels the most uncertain. She's torn between committing to this riskier dilemma, which may not come together in time, and falling back on work she knows how to resolve and sell. Okay, so the next thing is important. Alongside this, she's comparing herself to the friends she's exhibiting with, who seem to produce finished, more saleable work with ease, while she feels stuck in a more experimental and unresolved phase. Oh, goodness. Okay, so that is that is juicy. That is very layered, and there's a lot of stuff going on here. Now, the thing is, it sounds to me as if Carrie is really excited about this new body of work because it feels more personal, the way that you're talking about it, it feels like it's a new direction, and it feels there's something quite alive in there. But alongside that is is fear because there's this feeling of will it work and will it work in time and will it be good enough to show? And I think that that is too much pressure to put on a new body of work. I think that already that is that's a lot of pressure for that at that sort of early stages of a of um a piece of work or a body of work to put on it at this stage. Um, and then on top of that is this element of comparison where you know she's watching people produce work where they're they're obviously in a kind of you know, they're they're obviously in a stage with their work where they can produce something quite quick because they've been working in that way for a while. But at the moment, Carrie feels like she's in the messy middle with all of this. Um so I think at the moment this experimental work feels even more riskier than it actually is. Um now, the fact that this new work feels uncertain doesn't necessarily mean that it's the wrong direction. In fact, I think it's the right direction for you. But I think that at the moment what is happening is that there's too much pressure on this new body of work to be in a space to be resolved and to be in a in a show in July. Because I mean, realistically, what you've got what, a month and a half, two months? So my feeling is um you're trying to move somewhere new here, Carrie, but I think this needs to have its have time to it for it to develop without having the pressure of it being resolved and finished by July. Because I think the key thing here, what will happen? Sorry, I've got really itchy nose, I've got my um, I feel quite hay fevery at the moment. I think the thing is with this new body of work, that the the the problem here is that you've already mentioned sales, you've already mentioned this comparison with your friends that about being about selling. So this gives me this, this gives me the sense that this show will be a selling show. And you will start to the what will happen, and I can almost guarantee this, is if you start to push this experimental work to be the stuff that you're that that is going to be shown in the in the show in July, you'll start be thinking you'll start to think about how I can make this sellable. And I don't think that's the right place for this work to be uh in at the moment. I feel like this experimental work that you're working on, this has a darker kind of edgier feel almost. It needs to grow, it needs to take its own time. It doesn't have to have the pressure of being condensed and realized in a couple of months and be ready to sell. Um, so I think we need to separate the exhibition from the development of the work. So I think that the experimental work is development at the moment. Um, it needs space, and I think that that's the very thing that makes it exciting at the moment is that it's new and it's evolving. Give that time, don't put the pressure on it to be exhibited by July because I think it will flatten it. I don't mean abandon it, I just mean protect it. I think protect it from the pressure to be resolved and to be in a sellable place by a couple of months. Okay. Um so that's that's my feeling. That's my feeling. And that might not be what you wanted to hear, but I think it's the most sensible route at the moment. I think if you it sounds really exciting, and I really would like to encourage you to keep going with that body of work and let it take it, let take the you know, let it take its own direction rather than it being forced into this kind of you know exhibition in July. Right. So then I think we need to clear choose a clear lane for the exhibition because it sounds like you've got you've got these three bodies of work. We've kind of parked the last body of work because that's going to be ongoing. The two but two other pieces that you've got here are the planaire sketches, oil sketches, and the more resolved magpie series. And the question here, I think, is what can you realistically make resolve and stand behind before July? That's the question really you need to answer is you know, which which one of those two would you feel more comfortable bringing to some kind of resolution, maybe getting them framed, maybe figuring out different ways to present them, you know, which one of those two do you feel more aligned with at this present point? Okay, and again, let's try and sort of take the pressure off selling, unless it is that you, you know, you desperately need to sell these. Um well, and if you do desperately need to sell them, then you probably have to start to ask different questions. But I think from what you've told me, Carrie, you're you're a person here, it's you know, it's very much about your development of your work. And it I I don't necessarily think that you're thinking about these selling out. I think it's very much about who you are as an artist. But obviously, it'd be nice if they did sell. Um so that's the question. Okay, so I would also say, and I'm not I I think this might be quite an exciting group for you, is that actually, yes, choose one of those groups, the planaire or the um the magpie series, but perhaps show a little tiny bit of the new work. So it could be you're just showing a little glimpse of it, maybe one piece that might just show a suggestion of things to come, perhaps. You know, and you could create a little bridge there for this new body of work. Just a thought. Um so I do want to also just touch on this whole comparison thing that's happening when you're going out with your friends who are obviously exhibiting in the exhibition. Because what it sounds like to me is that they sound like they're in a different place with their work. It sounds like they're probably they've probably been working in a really similar way for a long period of time. Whereas from what you've told me, you're still in a very experimental phase where you're figuring out your own style, you're figuring out your own language. So what you're seeing is probably, you know, they've been painting outside for years, and they have developed this way of kind of bringing pieces to resolution. Whereas you are still in, you know, and that's not a criticism, you know, it's not a criticism at all, but it might just be that you're in a different stage of your art uh practice at the moment. Um, so I think try and separate that again, you know, to keep trying to kind of stand back and separate that. And also, it might be that you know, it's difficult, isn't it? I've been in group exhibitions with people, and you know, some people have sold more than others, and there's all there is always that kind of slight awkwardness about, you know, oh, if you're the one who's selling the most, you feel awkward because other people aren't selling, or if you're the one who isn't selling, you feel perhaps a slight resentment for the people who are selling. It's always going to be awkward, except that that is going to be something that you will have feelings about. You will have feelings about it. It's kind of inevitable, but you know, that's the nature of exhibiting with other people, and it is something that I think you you get used to over time. Right, so homework, make two lists. What work could I confidently confidently bring to the exhibition in in July, and what work am I excited to develop regardless of the outcome? Because I think they're two different things, and I think keep them separate, and I think the second one, the second one is obviously this new dark herbs or work that you're exploring with charcoal and oil. Um, choose one direction for the show, keep to it. Uh it might feel less exciting, but it means that you'll be able to pull it together in a very unified way, and I think it will create less pressure because you always think that you have more time than you do. And then I think ring still, even though in the preparation up to the exhibition, ring fence that time for the experimental work, ring fence some time for that experimental work to still occur. Uh and then, yeah, the comparison, when it happens, just acknowledge it, know it will pass, because it will pass, and step away from it. I also I also feel that you know, with comparison, one of the things that's always really helped me is it's a double-edged sword, isn't it? Because if you're comparing yourself to some like comparing yourself to one of your friends who's an artist, you know, they sell their work. You are genuinely happy for them because they've sold their work. But it's always a little bit of a sting for you because perhaps you haven't sold your work. The way that I've dealt with that in the past is acknowledge that part of you that is really great and really happy for them. And I, you know, I will phone up and say, or um, I remember one of my friends Perrien, she was, I can't remember, I can't remember, it was a long time ago. We were in the exhibition together, her work was selling, mine wasn't. And I had good feelings about Perrien's work that was selling, but I also felt a little bit like, oh, why isn't mine selling? You know, I went up to Perrien, I was like, well done, darling, well done, that's amazing. And as soon as I said that, the other bit that was holding on to, oh, I'm a little bit upset, but that disappeared. So I think, you know, build up that, that, that, that, uh, build up the sense of um joy that you have for your fellow artists that are selling. And and if you could acknowledge it and say it out loud, it does help to diminish the other bit, but it's feeling a little bit resentful. Okay. Um, I hope that's helpful. I have kind of told you what I think you would would be best for you to do here. Um it might be that you don't agree, and it might be that you do want to go on and develop that work. I just think if it if you'd have told me that you had an exhibition coming up in November, then I it would be different. But because it's July, there isn't a lot of time, and you've got to get all the pricing, all the framing, all of the marketing, all of that sorted out. So that isn't a lot of time to bring bring together a new body of work and resolve it. Okay, hope that helped. Thanks for that, Carrie. Excellent question. Right, let's move on to Jennifer. Just making sure I've got time. I've still got 10 minutes. This is this is going well. Okay, so Jennifer. Jennifer sent a long, a much longer email with lots of different dilemmas, but I'm going to answer the one about shipping. So this is much more of a practical rather than emotional. Um, sorry, I'm just giving Marple a kiss. She's got, look at that, all that yogurt on her on her. I think it's yogurt. Maybe it isn't yogurt. No, it is yogurt. Um gorgeous, gorgeous girl. Um Jennifer sent in the longer dilemma. Um, but this is uh more about shipping because she's worried about shipping, shipping artwork, had lots of questions around shipping. Um, and obviously, I've only really got experience of shipping prints, but I did get in touch with a couple of my friends about shipping canvases and um uh bigger pieces of work. So hopefully their answers will be able to kind of direct you. So she said that she's worried about how to safely package and send different types of artwork, including framed paintings, canvas pieces, and unframed works on paper. She's also unsure as to whether it's safe to roll works, whether it could cause damage, and whether it's better to send things flat. And top of that, she's wondering how to approach pricing, whether to charge separately for the shipping or include it in the cost of the artwork. Okay, so I think the emotional layer of this is the whole thing about sending out your work, because once you've sent it, you're no longer in control of it. You know, you put it into a system and it's gone, and it can be, I mean, I know from years of selling work and handing it over to Royal Mail, there's always a sense of, oh my goodness, me. And you know, you do get those emails from people saying, This hasn't arrived, what can we do about that? You know, and often for me it's a matter of refunding because tracking something that that's gone missing in Royal Mail is a bit of a nightmare. Anyway so, but it is part of being an artist. It's a sorry, I've just got a text message just coming. I should have muted everything. I normally do. I thought I'd turn my phone on to the airplane. Anyway, um, you don't want to let the buyer down, you want the work to arrive in the way that you would want the work to arrive. Um, so I think it's but I do think it gets easier the more you do it, the more experience you get, the more the easier it will be to um come up with a method that suits you. So framed works. Um how I frame, I mean, I I don't really sell framed pieces of work, but I have shipped framed pieces for exhibitions, and how I do that is I um wrap them in bubble wrap, I protect the corners, and then I wrap them, wrap them, wrap them in newspaper, and then I put them in the box and make sure the box is really packed well, and then I will send them. So that's how I do that. Um I just pack it really, really well. It might look a bit ugly, but it's packed really, really well. Um and that is probably the case as well for framed for framed paste paintings. Um canvas paint canvases, they're often more robust because obviously they don't have glass, but you want to make sure that you protect the actual surface of the canvas, and then again with bubble wrap or newsprint, um protecting the corners again. Again, it depends how big these are. I mean, if you're talking about really large canvases, then it's probably better to get some kind of I don't know, you can get those art um packers for you. I mean, I again I've never used it, I'm not I'm not a painter, I've never had to ship large paintings. Um but if they're smaller, then it's sort of saying the same process. Pack them well, pad them well, put them in a box and send them the best way you can. Right, unframed works on paper. So I always um I use bookmailers, which are basically sort of cardboard um folders that fold over. Um, I use those depending on the size of the print. Um, when they when they get bigger than A3, my prints, I do roll them. And that for me is the safest way. Even though it does arrive rolled up, it's much better and safer than sending a large print with loads of cardboard on it because inevitably it will get bent and you'll get a complaint. I've had that before, so once I'd had a couple of complaints about that, then I decided to roll them. And I I felt uncomfortable about rolling them when I started, I have to have to admit. But I will always tell the customer to, as soon as they get them, unroll them, put them underneath some heavy books, um, and then they will be flat in no time. So that's the way I do it. Obviously, with prints, the ink is dry, it's not going to crack. The collages, I would be really careful of rolling them as I would with paintings, because obviously they can crack. So I only have my own experience with prints here, but yeah, absolutely. Past a certain size, they go in a tube, and I roll them, and I feel much better about that than I would sending them packed up. Um, what else? Um, like prints, like I say, it's it is pretty standard. A lot of prints do come in a in a tube, even though it does feel uncomfortable when you're rolling something that's taken you so long to do, and you're thinking, oh my goodness, you know, my customer the other end is going to get this rolled up thing. But I'm sure that the customer would much prefer to get a rolled up uh print that they have to gently um unpack and flatten than getting a print that's got, you know, it's been um torn at the edges or the packaging has been bent or whatever. Because, you know, you see how they treat the parcels, you know, it's not great. I mean, it's it's your job as the as the as the as the seller of your art to package it in the best way that you possibly can. But again, there isn't there isn't you um what I'm trying to say here, there's not there's not a right or a wrong way. Well, the right way is to package it the best way you can, obviously. But you you you know, uh depending on your artwork, you develop your own ways of packaging. Um, you know, for me, even if my packaging doesn't look particularly neat, I I you know, that's just the way it is. I I would rather it just be a bit of a messagey packaging, but absolutely perfect inside. So, you know, you'll you'll figure your way out with that, you'll figure your way around that. Not your your way out. You're gonna figure your way out of a package, you will find your way with it, but um, it does get easier. Okay, in terms of shipping, what do I do? Um, so I basically make sure I I I all my shipping is as fair as I can do it. I I only sometimes I charge less, sometimes I charge more, slightly more, and it all rounds out in the end. So, say something like um to ship a print in the UK, it's normally about five pounds for me. Um, five pounds I charge the customer five pounds. It's generally about three pounds 75 to send something small package, 48 hours tracked. So I've got a small margin for my packaging. So that's how I do it. I just um I just add a tiny little bit more on, not not too much. I really try and keep my shipping costs as as much as I can. Some people incre in incre in increase the cost of their prints and they don't charge shipping. It really depends. It's a very personal thing. I would rather charge a reasonable amount of for shipping um just because it works out better, it's easier for me in terms of tax um and keeping track of royal mail and all that kind of stuff. So that's how I've chosen to do it. Speak to other artists, they might say something different, but I try and keep it as reasonable as I can. So I dust tie in a tiny little bit, a tiny little bit of wiggle room for the cost of the materials and the packaging and my time, etc. Anyway, listen, hope that's helpful. Marble's in the background now. She's uh she's got off my knee, she's bored. Well, I've managed to do that. I'm really chuffed. I've got two more minutes before my coaching session with Nina. Listen, guys, thank you for tuning in again. Please send in your dilemmas. Do like or subscribe to this podcast. I know that's the thing that you're supposed to say at the end, and I keep forgetting to say it. So if you like it, subscribe, leave a review, that'd be amazing. And uh, let's keep this podcast going. So please keep sending your dilemma in. No matter how silly you think they are, they're not silly. I love listen, I love reading them, and and you know, thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing your your dilemmas with me. I really appreciate it. Thank you guys. I'll see you next week. Am I recording? Oh, that would be a nightmare, wouldn't it? Uh, I think I'm recording.