Episode 13: A Creative Conversation with Laura Smith

In this episode of The Creative Couch, I’m joined by painter Laura Smith for the first in a new series of creative conversations with artists, friends and fellow creatives about their practice and creative lives.

Although the podcast began with me responding to creative dilemmas sent in by listeners, it was always my intention to intersperse those episodes with longer, more open-ended conversations with other creatives, and I’m so happy to be starting that part of the podcast with Laura.

Laura and I have known each other for years. We both studied at the Slade School of Fine Art and later at the Royal Drawing School, and in this conversation we settle in for a thoughtful, wide-ranging chat about painting, creativity, teaching and the realities of sustaining a creative life over time.

We talk about studio life, living and working in London, balancing creative practice with other commitments, and our experiences of social media and Instagram as working artists. We also discuss painters we admire, including Giorgio Morandi, the importance of looking slowly, and the artists and exhibitions that have been inspiring us lately.

Along the way, we share recommendations, reflections on teaching, thoughts on creative pressure, and some honest conversation about the quieter, less visible parts of maintaining an artistic practice.

You can find Laura on Instagram at @Laurajrsmith.

We’ll be returning to creative dilemmas next week, so if you’ve got a dilemma you’d like me to respond to, you can send it to thecreativecouchpod@gmail.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Creative Couch. I'm Sam Marshall, artist and creative coach. This is a podcast for anyone navigating the ups and downs of a creative life. Each week I respond to three real creative dilemmas sent in by listeners, exploring both the emotional side of what you're experiencing and some practical ways to move forward. And from time to time, I'll also be joined by other artists to talk about their creative life, their practice, their challenges, and what keeps them going. Hello and welcome back to the Creative Couch. I hope you are all well. Again, thank you for all your wonderful dilemmas that have been coming in over the past few weeks. So today we're doing something a little bit different. It has always been my intention with the pod to invite other creatives on to talk about their life, their creative life, and how they navigate a creative life. So today I'm kicking off this part of the podcast with inviting my wonderful friend Laura Smith onto the podcast to talk about her work. Many of you will know Laura. She's a brilliant painter and lives in the UK. We first met when we were studying at the Royal Drawing School. We both went to the Slate School of Fine Art and have been friends for many years now. So Laura is an observational painter. She studied at the Slate School of Fine Art for her BA and for her MFA. And she then went on to study at the Royal Drawing School. She exhibits widely around the UK. She shows at Flowers Gallery, Brows and Derby, 155A Gallery. She's very prolific. She's absolutely wonderful. And I know you're going to enjoy this conversation. So yeah, keep listening and I look forward to seeing you guys next week when we will return to the dilemmas. Enjoy the conversation. Okay, and so welcome to the creative couch, Laura. So lovely to have you here.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

It's so lovely to be here. It really is. I'm I'm your number one fan.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Oh, you're my number one guest. I I I always knew when I was going to do this. I thought Laura is going to be the person who I invite on first. Oh and because it feels it feels so it feels so right because you're the first person that I told about the podcast nearly a year ago. I remember we met up in London. We went to see an exhibition, didn't we? At um is it Piano Nib Nobile?

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Noble, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

What was the exhibition that we saw?

SPEAKER_02 2:48

It was it had lots of London painters like Sickert and Kossoff and that was it. British British painters, yeah. I remember what it what it was called. Yeah, I can't remember. But I I remember you saying, and I thought this is just so perfect for you. I mean, it's almost inevitable. And I also knew that you would make it happen, and you have.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Well, it was a lot. I mean, I kind of did live, I thought about it for a long time, and it was always in the back of my mind. And then suddenly, when after Sketch came out, I thought, actually, I've got a little bit more time now. Well, I don't really have any time, but I just thought I'm gonna do this. But I really enjoyed researching how to put it all together. It was uh, you know, because there's lots of things involved with it, and you know, learning how to yeah, just edit it, edit it, upload it to the different platforms, upload it to YouTube. I mean, it's been a real learning curve, but I'm loving it. I'm loving it. So um yeah. And so anyway, welcome to this lovely creative space, this lovely comfy couch where we can just sit and we can chat and uh yeah, just kind of share the ups and downs of a creative life. Um, but what I thought we would do for a start is I'm gonna introduce a new segment to the podcast, and that is called Loving Lately. So at the beginning of each podcast, I'm gonna share something that I've been enjoying recently, and then um when I have guests on, I'm going to ask them to share something. So, Laura, over to you. What have you been loving lately? It can be anything.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Okay, so I have chosen a podcast because I thought of all the things, you know, artists and TV shows and things that I'm loving at the moment, people listening to you will like podcasts and maybe they will like a recommendation for another one. So it's called Frank Skinner's Poetry Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

And the reason I love it is that I even though I love poetry, I don't really have it as a regular thing that I read, interact with, listen to. I I've gone through phases of it, but recently, you know, it's just it's difficult. Even when I've sort of made myself think, okay, I'm gonna do one of those one poem a day things, and then it just becomes a bit of a chore. Anyway, his podcast, he absolutely loves poetry of all kinds, modern and ancient, and everything in between. And what he does is he you know picks a poet, like it could be anyone from Gerald Manley Hopkins to Emily Dickinson or someone really, really new, like um uh who did I write down? I mean Liz Berry, for instance, or Donna Stone Cipher. Anyway, and his enthusiasm just comes across and he breaks it down for you. So he's sort of reading it, but then he's also analysing it and telling you what he thinks. Um, one of the things I love is that you don't need to know anything about poetry, he doesn't assume any prior knowledge and he's not exactly irreverent, but he just makes it is very kind of engaging and easy to listen to.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

But um, yeah, I really love it. I didn't know that. I had I hadn't heard of that one. That is going to be added to my list because I'm like you, I I, you know, when I was at school and we did my English literature, I did love poetry. I really, really enjoyed it because I think there's something very visual about it, isn't it? The way that the poems are visually laid out on the page, and I've really got into the kind of the architecture almost of poetry, but it's something that I've never really engaged with since. So I'm gonna listen to that. Thank you. Adding to my ever-growing podcast list. Although, although I do say that, I mean, I have got a big list of podcasts, but there's uh I had to do a podcast cull the other day because I realised that I've got a lot that I just I just don't listen to anymore. I've outgrown them or they just don't feel relevant now. So um, yeah, but it's always exciting, isn't it, with that day when the podcast lands and it's like yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

I mean, I have to say, with his podcast, he will sometime some years it's like he'll do 28 episodes in a year, and other other years it's kind of six in a year. Oh, really? So it's not at all as regular as you might hope. But the thing is that what I really love doing is kind of binging podcasts, and so I so I'll I'll sort of listen to them, you know, back to back. Oh, will you? Because he started he started his in 2020, so it's quite a lot. But then but then I kind of I I think okay, I'm done with that and move on to something else. But but his is one that has stayed in my library since I discovered it.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Yeah, god, okay. Well, you've you've got a convert here. Okay, so I'll tell you what I've been loving lately, and this is a total pivot, and this is um a Japanese uh dating show. So I've Brilliant. I've gone through them all. I've gone through The Boyfriend, which is about um uh gay guys in Japan. Um I've gone through oh god, I've done them all. I mean, I literally have uh I'm going blank now. Oh, there's one called is it called the house, or it's about older people trying to get together um the home. Anyway, I've done them all. And the one I've just finished is called Offline Love. And what it is is it's a group of it's five Japanese, young Japanese people, and they're they're basically they come to France and they're in Nice, and they go to Nice, and then they have their phones taken away. And so they have like two weeks whereby they're just randomly walking around and sort of meeting each other just by coincidence, and it is just the most charming, heartwarming. There's just something so respectful about the way that Japanese people kind of come together and the gentleness of it, and and also the scenes in in France in Nice are really beautiful. I think it's like Fran, it's uh February time, so it's quite cold, but there's just beautiful scenery, it's beautifully shot, and it's just absolutely heartwarming. It it's the I mean, I I finished it last night and I was in floods of tears because I just found it emotionally wrenching. It's brilliant, it's brilliant, and so that is my recommendation offline love. And it's it's kind of makes you realize just how dependent we are on our phones and how you know they have these shots whereby they're that they're they've got this map and they they show like the people when they're kind of like they've got almost almost meeting, and then they kind of you know they turn around a corner and they just don't don't meet because it just you know they they haven't got their phones to kind of orientate them, so they have to kind of write these notes to one another, meet me at a certain place at a certain time. It's lovely, it's like we used to do back in the day, back in the day, Laura, back in the day. So I mean that yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep going. I was gonna say, because I guess when we went to art school, it that's I mean, we just managed, didn't we? We just managed.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah. I mean, I remember turning up and surprising friends because I knew they'd be at a certain station at a certain time. And then there's just this delight of, oh my gosh, hey, you know. But of course, now you're just constantly saying, okay, I'm I'm I'm half an hour away, I'm five minutes away, or whatever. Um, Sam, it's almost like that um program was designed for you because you love the south of France. I know, I know. So you might think of Bonn Arme, you know, and obviously Japan.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

And what was really lovely was to see how they sort of, you know, how they orientated themselves in a foreign country. Because I mean, for some of them, they you know, they were young, some of these, they were like in their twenties, they'd never been abroad. And just sort of seeing how seeing France through their eyes, you know, knowing Japan so well, and then sort of seeing what they thought to France was just, yeah, it was it was so anybody. That's what I was doing last night, watching So where where can we listen? Oh uh Netflix, Netflix, all on Netflix. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, Laura. So let's uh that's that's the new segment done. Oh really? Which is great. Um, because I you know I wanted to do that is because you know, years ago when I was over COVID time, I used to do a daily recommendation. It was a so much part of my daily stories. I would have to do, I would say this is what you know, it's a book or a podcast or a film or something. And then over time, obviously that has you know it's changed. And so I thought I'd bring it back on the podcast. It's brilliant, it's brilliant. Anyway, so you are you're in your studio. Yes, I am. Those of you are watching on Zoom will see Laura's beautiful kind of yeah, interesting. What's happening with the colour colours in the background?

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Oh, that's just that's old. Um so in to my right is actually my still life setup area, and so the wall is often covered with different bits of paint or different fabrics, and this is uh I painted this you know a while ago, and it's just you're just seeing the edge of it. Okay, but it's it's the wall that I that I put different fabrics on.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Oh, interesting. Because the paintings behind are have have the same sort of colour palette as well, don't they?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

I know, but that's complete. I mean, I mean it's complete sort of coincidence having said that. Um it must mean that I I obviously like that orange. Yeah. I mean it's a beautiful yeah, and again years later, I'm still painting paintings with it in.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Yeah, those of you on Zoom can't, those of you who are just listening to this on um your podcast won't be able to see it. It's it you let everybody come and watch it on YouTube. That's why it's a it should be a visual thing, these creator courses. Um so Laura, talk to us a little bit about where you are now with your work because I think I will I will have explained in the um introduction, you know, that you're a painter. Very often your paintings uh well I would would we say pretty much always from observation.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Yes, yes, they are, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

And very much it it you set them up in your studio, there is a kind of um yeah, kind of a a time that you take to to kind of put everything together as an arrangement, yes, and then you spend time painting that arrangement.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

That's exactly it. It's kind of like a cross between theatre design, not that I've ever done that, and sort of interior decorating and whatever, just a process of putting together generally fabrics and objects.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

So, how do you how do you go? Because I mean, your because your paintings are so varied and they vary in scale as well, how do you go about selecting the things that you want to place in the still line?

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Well, there are a few ways that they come to be in my paintings. Sometimes I will be lying in bed and have an idea of an object, usually in a particular position. For example, you know, open scissors or you know, a fish lying on a slab at eye level or something. Um, or it could be a sort of a feeling of something overflowing, like it might be a feeling of abundance and thinking about that um depicted through, I don't know, sand falling over a vessel and filling it up completely and overflowing. Um, so it could be an idea that I just have and then I go and buy the stuff and try and make it happen, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Or it could be that I use objects I've already got in the studio, and usually I've bought them because I they appeal to me in some way visually, and uh and it's more about me bringing them together and the kind of relationships between them. So I see them generally as kind of characters relating to one another, so I uh they're a bit anthropomorphic in the sense that it's sort of like this one's cuddling up to this one and and this one's being rejected, and this one's squashed, and you know, that it's a bit like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

So there are so there are objects that appear again and again and again.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Yeah, there are, yeah, yeah, there are.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

It sort of reminds me a bit of Mirandi, where he, you know, he had all of his vessels, didn't he? And he just placed them and very purposefully created these different relationships with them.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

I find that absolutely I I I love Mirandi, sorry to cut you off. No, no, not I I do love Mirandi, yeah. And actually, I went to his studio here in Bologna a couple of years ago. Uh it was a kind of pilgrimage, and they have the most wonderful museum there where you can see lots of his paintings, and it's beautifully well, when I went, it was the height of summer, so it was beautifully quiet. But his paintings are so full of air and space, and they're so poetic. But going to his studio, I knew that he's painted in his bedroom and I knew it was small, but I didn't realise that it would just be kind of filled with all of the objects that appeared in his paintings. And so instead of having the airy, spacious feeling of his paintings, his studio slash bedroom had a kind of for me, a sort of um what's it what's the word claustrophobic sort of feel? Because he had so and I just thought how remarkable that there's this big step between what you are surrounded by, even if you're an observational painter, and what you are able to convey in your pictures.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

What you leave out. It's it I find that so fascinating. Wow. So did he have did he have like a shelf or what did he did he have?

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Yeah, he had shelves, yeah, he did, yeah. And and and a lot of the stuff was on on the floor. And I don't know if that's you know, reflective of I think it's probably reflective of how how it was when he was there, because I think they've been quite careful about keeping it.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

But the actual surface, because like you've got your table that you put things onto. I mean, is there a table that he used? Is is was that clear as to where we actually placed the objects?

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yes, yes, and and and and and what I'm describing, you know, all the multiple objects crowded together was to the side. Right. So it's not like he he was actually looking at hundreds of objects, he'd kind of put them off to the side and then select the the few that he was painting at that time.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

So was he not very I mean, I I didn't know to be honest, I I mean I know quite a lot about Burandi, but I didn't know that he painted in his bedroom. I mean, was he not successful during his lifetime?

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Well, this is the funny thing, he was very successful, but he was one of those people that for whatever reason wanted to stay where he was. He lived with his sisters in a in a small apartment. He did have a sort of, I don't know what you call it, summer house. He did have a place in the countryside which I haven't visited yet, but apparently that's a little bit larger. But um unusual character.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah, very, yeah, no, very, very I mean, somebody who sort of lives in my head, and I often reference him with my students as you know, he comes up a lot, I think. In even in sort of, you know, I'm there's there's associate I often associate students' work, even when it's not obvious, there's something about the placement, or there's something about their sensitivity to colour and the sort of yeah, the kind of attention to detail, and especially with his etchings as well and his paintings. But what what's interesting for me is thinking about this, thinking about a table where you place things on. Um I had a really interesting day of teaching yesterday for the Royal Drawing School, and one of the students, um, I think the guys in Columbia actually uh these classes amaze me at the Royal Drawing School, you know that you turn up and it's 10 o'clock for us, and and some of these students join from all over the world. And I think for Andre, it was like four o'clock in the morning he had to get up. I mean, crazy commitment. Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

That is unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

But he yesterday we were doing um uh I was getting them to draw uh in uh empty spaces. So I provided the spaces, uh, some some images of empty spaces, and they had to populate the space with things that they brought in. So it could either be a figure, it could be something from their drawings, and and and one of the uh images was a table. And so Andre, when I had a chat with him in the breakout room, he was like, Oh my god, this is a massive breakthrough for me, he said, because I paint, I draw and paint what's on my table all the time. That is my subject matter. I will, but I'm I I do not invent things, you know. I paint what is on my table, I'm not inventing, I'm not, I'm not using my imagination, I'm not using um uh, you know, nothing that's not there. And he said, This has just been transformational for me because I can I realize that I can actually do this. I can bring in something external, like another image, and place it in the picture without it, you know. So he was just he was so excited to see that he he could step away from pure observational work. So that's my next question, leading into this. Where do you where are you with that? Because I know that when when we've looked at your paintings together, you know, I I I I get really excited by the way that you're gently kind of playing with us in terms of perspective, and there's always a you know, there's like maybe that sort of shift of how things are placed on the on the canvas, and and I get the sense that there is that sort of yeah, that you're you're trying to tease us a little bit, but very much with the formal elements uh with your paintings. But but are you tempted to bring in something more imaginary or um yeah, working from memory or something like that? What how does that sit with you?

SPEAKER_02 21:45

At the moment, I would say I am thinking more about different languages in the same painting. So, what I mean by that is You might have several objects, but you could paint them in different ways from each other. And someone that I think does this incredibly well is David Hockney. But I've been thinking about well, I've been thinking a little bit about Cubism and Ben Nicholson and Brack and just how the language of paint is the sub is is to some extent the subject of the of the painting. And I have tried a bit to paint from drawings and paint from memory. And I I am sure that if I really gave it a long time, I would be of course I could do it because I believe that if you put in the time and give it the intention, you you are able to go in whatever direction you like. But it's just that for me, it's so exciting to be in front of the thing, yeah, that nothing gives me that buzz like yeah, like observation does. But I completely love what you say about me trying to create slightly ambiguous spaces or and and change things. So I am trying to alter, yeah. I I am trying to think of it as a as a real painting where you're telling a story through the language of paint, yeah, yeah, rather than some kind of mindless copying.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

But I think it can happen even if I'm there with the objects. And actually, in some ways, I feel that repetition, i.e., making multiple paintings of the same collection of objects, can actually free me in the same way that was it. Stanley Kubrick used to say to his actors, okay, go again, okay, another cut, another, another, another. And they get to a point where they just think, okay, I'm just going to do something crazy because otherwise, I mean, yeah, what does he want? I'm so bored by this. And and and so I suppose doing multiple versions, it gives you this confidence to just experiment.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah, no, I think that's that's it's just so interesting. Because I always think there's a purity about your work. And I I remember when I first came across you because we um we first met, didn't we? At did we meet at the Royal Drawing School, or did we meet? I think you were friends with hang on, let's get this right. So you did the world, you did drawing year before me, didn't you? Or after me. Was it after me?

SPEAKER_02 25:00

I did it in 2003. Was that before or after?

SPEAKER_00 25:04

I think I did it. Oh, you know what, I can't remember. I think I I think you did it after me then. I don't know, but I don't know how how did we get to know one another, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Now I'm well, it's crazy because you were at the slade and I was at the slade. Yeah. And you were at the joint school and I was at the joint school, but we didn't ever overlap. And I think it was through mutual friends. Right. And the time when I really felt like I properly had a conversation with you was when we were at our dear friend Rydal's birthday, and I think it was just the three of us. Was it? Okay. And we went to Pizza Express, and I just came away thinking, oh, Sam is just amazing. And I've never really sort of had a proper conversation with you. I don't I don't remember. I mean, I remember seeing you before, but but that was when I felt like we sort of connected. And then honestly, through Instagram, I think that's what's brought us together.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I yes, I do remember that because I think I'm older than you, aren't I? So I went to the slade before you. I think you yeah, you you're what 47? I'm 45. 45, sorry, as a yeah, yeah, I'm 45. Okay, right. Yeah. So I was at the slade before you, and then you, and then you did your BA at the slade and your MA at the slade. That's right. Right, okay, yeah. Um, yes, through Instagram, yes, it has been. It's very much so, hasn't it? I mean, I think during lockdown, I think we connected, and yeah, we just kind of maintained our friendship through there, hasn't it? So so let's let's pivot a bit and let's talk about Instagram because I had a really interesting uh dilemma in last week from uh Dana, who was really struggling with Instagram, and I know I've had a lot of comments on this, and I've had a lot of kind of conversations around Instagram. So kind of talking about how you use Instagram, what is your relationship to Instagram and how how do you use Instagram for your work?

SPEAKER_02 27:03

So my relationship with Instagram has changed over the years. Um I I went through a phase which you might remember where I was making these videos where I was answering questions that you know, I guess my followers were asking me about being an artist and how I found it. And I enjoyed that, but I um I don't know if the word is a perfectionist, but I just it took up an awful lot of my time to do five minutes, and I did it for a year, I did it every week for a year, and that was really valuable for me because it helped me to talk about my work a little bit more easily, and um so I enjoyed that. I I mean now I'm in a funny spot because I have because I'm trying not to post what I'm doing at the moment. So I have gone through phases of posting really quite immediately, like this is the painting I've just finished. And that is lovely because you get, you know, my friends can see what I'm up to, and I and it's very fresh and now and it feels really true to say, yeah, this is what I'm doing right now. Um leading up to my I had a solo show last year, and leading up to that, I thought I don't want to post every single picture because by that point, by the by the opening, the gallery will think, Well, Laura, you've already shared everything, so there are no surprises. So I purposefully tried not to do that, and I sort of showed details and things, but I went through a phase of not really posting. And at the moment, what I'm trying to do is post if I am in an exhibition or something, but I really like what you said about you don't take it too seriously and you don't sort of overthink it, and you do what comes naturally. So, for instance, I went on holiday recently and I did this some drawings, and none of them are really connected to my still life oil paintings. They're just they're they're almost like just trying to collect memories from a holiday. Um, but I thought, and I thought, oh, is that gonna confuse people if I put that up? Is that not very serious and not sort of part of my uh specialty? Um, but I put them up and people love seeing sketchbooks. I've noticed that if I put up sketchbook drawings, people really love them. Uh not love them, but they love to see behind the scenes stuff that you wouldn't exhibit. And so, and I thought, oh, I'm really glad I did that. So I I'm definitely I'm definitely open to being um, you know, going where the wind blows, and and I've gone through phases of putting, you know, me making little reels of an exhibition I've seen. I love it when other people do that. Um, so but at the moment, because I'm trying to build up gradually a body of work that I hope to have a solo show with, I just want to keep that to myself for the time being. In fact, you're the only ones that have seen and it, you know, these paintings are new, and I haven't shown them, and I'm I'm not gonna show them, you know, uh on Instagram for the time being. But um, yeah, so that's a bit of a ramble.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

No, I mean, I think I get the sense that you're being very purposeful with it. I get the sense that there's a you know, you're thinking about it carefully because I noticed when you went away uh was it last month to New Zealand? Yeah, yeah. You were very um deliberate in your your post, you said or on your storage, you said I'm going away for a month, I'm I'm not gonna be on Instagram. Please add me or please email me if you want to get in contact. And I just thought, you know, there's such a sort of uh clarity in your approach, I think, which is which is really wonderful. And I think you're you know, there is um uh you know, you're using it in a way that suits you, which is kind of what I talked about last week, you know, trying to find instant trying to find a way with Instagram that you know um supports what you're doing, supports your practice. And and the main thing is when you open Instagram, you don't feel a sense of dread, you know, because I get I get a lot of feeling, I get a lot of sort of feedback from people saying, you know, every time I open the app, I I I feel sick, you know. I've I've I'm I'm I'm preparing myself, I'm worried that I'm not doing what I think I should be doing, and and so all of it brings a lot of anxiety around it. But it sounds to me as if you're you're in quite a good space with it.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

I think what really helped me is a friend of mine who's also a painter told me about this device called a brick. Have you heard about this? No, it's a little plastic, it's like a fridge magnet or something, and it it will allow you to block certain apps from your phone. Oh, so you type into your phone um which apps, so it could be email, it could be Instagram, it could be Safari, whatever you want, and say, I want to block these, I don't want to be able to use them. You put, you have to physically put your phone up to the brick, it does its magic, waves its magic wand, and then you cannot use those apps until the phone comes back into contact with the brick.

unknown 33:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

So when I went to New Zealand, I there's no way I could just say, oh, delete Instagram, I'm not gonna look at it. No, because I'm very addicted to it, right? You know, looking at it. And so I thought I'm going to brick it um while I'm away. And so I couldn't get it until I came back from New Zealand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

You're gonna brick it. Wow, okay, okay, that is quite phenomenal. I've never heard of that.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

It's about I think it's about 60 or 70 pounds. Right, okay. Something like that.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

But worth it, worth it if it's prevents you from going down that kind of rabbit hole of yeah, I mean, it it is addictive, isn't it? I mean, I think there's no two ways about it. Okay, but I think it's different. I think for you know, we're very different artists, aren't we? So you, you know, you're a painter, you know, you have galleries that uh take your work, and you know, you're not represented you are you aren't represented by anybody at the moment, are you?

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Or well, I consider myself sort of represented by um the gallery in Dalitch, right? I don't I mean it's not like a sort of contract, but um I'm very loyal, but but um no, I'm not officially represented, I I yeah, I suppose. I mean, I yeah, I don't I don't know. I mean I I I'm on I'm on the website of 155A Gallery, right? And I feel really happy to be with them. Um but I do also show at other galleries, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yeah, yeah. I mean, because I think that's that's a really interesting thing and something that our listeners might find real interesting in terms of, you know, if you're a painter and you have gone down the fine art pathway and you want to show your work, you know, let's talk about what what's available to you now in in 2026, you know, because it it it's you know it's changed because when we left art school, it was very much about right, well, if you're a painter, then you're going to try and get a gallery to represent you. You know, the get the right the gallery will hopefully take you to art fairs, it will then perhaps allow you to have a solo exhibition, etc. Um, yeah, and that has, I think that's changed now. I think a lot of artists are uh less tied to galleries, it's it's not not the thing that it used to be. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_02 35:41

Yes, I would I would agree, and I have many friends who uh sell their work on Instagram very successfully. Painter, you know, oil painters who sell their work and they do it brilliantly. I mean yeah, uh there are so many more ways now of showing and selling your work.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

And and is it still the case though, if you are represented by a gallery that you aren't then supposed to show with other galleries? Is that still the kind of the rule?

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Well, I think it depends on the gallery, but but yes, some galleries will stipulate that. Yes, yes. Yeah, I mean that yeah, it's a very interesting one.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

That's so interesting, isn't it? I mean, for like for me, I mean, I get approached by lots of different galleries. Well, I say I mean I make it sound like I get approached all the time. Uh in the past, I've been approached by galleries to say, could we stock your prints? And I've made a real conscious choice not to not to do that. I mean, I was thinking about that earlier, thinking, God, I'm so pleased I didn't go down that route because I the thought of having to pack up a load of prints and take and often the galleries will take them and they will give you the money when they sell them. So essentially you're just kind of giving a whole load of prints to somebody, and you're most probably-I mean, I've had places that have taken them and never seen them again, you know. It's and then you'll probably get a check, a random like check or a bank transfer, you know, once every six months for like 30 pounds because they take a massive commission. So I consciously chose not to do that, and that's worked really well for me because you know, I sell prints that are uh under a certain price point, so and I I can direct people to my website quite easily. So I you know that has been the conscious choice that I've made over time, it's kind of evolved in that way. Um, because I you know, I do get questions that come in and people do ask me about you know what's the best way, and I just said it's really dependent on who you are, what kind of art you make, you know, where you sit in the you know, the the sort of spectrum of what kind of art you make. Um but if if I had to ask you your advice to somebody who, let's say uh a fine art graduate, you know, 23, just emerging from art school now, what what kind of advice do you think you would give them?

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Well, I I mean this is a separate point, but I would say straight away, if you're in London, get on a studio wait list because sometimes it can like the place I'm in, you have to be on the waiting list for at least 10 years in order to get in. Yeah. And so I would say just do that as soon as you possibly can. Um and I think putting on group shows wherever you can, curating them yourself with friends, um, do that as as much as you can. And it's such hard work, but it's you you learn an awful lot and you build relationships with people and you know, peer groups and everything. Um, and I mean one of the things I have done is become a member of a club, right? Uh, the the New English Art Club. And that means that I am guaranteed to be able to show my work every year in central London.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Um, so that means that in amongst all the kind of open calls that I go in for, I know that there'll be one yes because it's not it's no longer an open call. I'm invited. Okay. Um, so for me, that's been really, I've really benefited from that because again, you're in contact with all these other artists, and you know, it's this community and which is great, and then also you get to show your work.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Yeah, I think that's one of the things I always recommend is you know, keep the community, keep the community going because inevitably you will leave art school with a group of people that you have some connection to. And and I I always say keep up that momentum, like exactly you know, organise group exhibitions, try and kind of network as much as you can. I mean, that that's the time when you do go to the private show, the private exhibition. I can't even the private meeting, yeah. I can't even remember the word, it's been so long since I've been to I think I think it was probably that this time last year when we went to that one up together. Um but I think it's it's it's really hard, and I really do sympathize with people who are graduating and well, I mean, now and and then I mean it was so extraordinarily difficult for when we when we left art school, wasn't it? And you know, the climate is so competitive. And I think you know, one of the things that a lot of people do, and you and I do, and what I want to touch on is is teaching. You know, we we went into teaching, you know, it's something that uh I think both of us love. I'm not I'm but we do love teaching, don't we? Yeah, yeah. And and I think um it's been a natural progression for us both. Um so let's talk about that a little bit. Let's talk about how teaching fits in. I mean, we've had this conversation many times as to, you know, when we get together, it's like how many days are you doing at Heatherly's or you know, and how much that takes up of your creative week. So if we could talk about, you know, where you are this term, how much time is teaching work and how much time is is spent in your studio making your yeah, it's a very, very big um thing to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Do you mind if I go back to the last topic just briefly and then come back to this? Because I've just remembered that um now this is only relevant, maybe it's not relevant for everyone, but I remember going into a very smart gallery in Mayfair, one that I knew I would never show at, just because I had no connections with them and didn't think they would like my work. But I but I admired and I saw the gallery owner in there, and I thought, what the hell? I'm just gonna go and ask him. And I said to him, What is your advice? I'm a painter, I want to be represented by a gallery, I want to show in galleries. Um, you know, not perhaps as as as illustrious as yours, but what is your advice for me to show my work? And he said, gain the respect of your peers.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Oh, wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

And I actually think that while that is a frustrating thing to hear, I think it's actually true because any um actually 155A, they did she did find me through Instagram, but it's probably only because of the fact that I had friends that I was already sort of connected with. But but one of the other um galleries I I show at, the reason I show there is because one of the their other artists said, I recommend that you would, you know, would you be interested in showing Laura's work? And they said yes. Um, so that is how that happened.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Just wanted to Yeah, no, I think that's a really valid point, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, it there's so much crossover, isn't there? There's so much, and I think that's what's wonderful about the art world. I mean, you know, that's by my experience, is that I I feel like I've got a lovely community that does sort of pass on opportunities. You know, I often get asked to do some teaching. I'm like, well, I can't do it. Maybe this person can do it. Yes. And I wouldn't recommend those people if I didn't respect them and have the uh knowledge that I know that they would do a good job, you know. But but again, it takes years, doesn't it? I mean, we've been at 30 years.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Yeah, yeah, crazy. I know. Um, but actually that leads us back to teaching because the teaching work I've got has Been through recommendation. Right, great.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Yeah. I mean, whether that's a good thing or not, is how it works in the places that I teach. Yeah. Um, you know, so yeah. How much teaching do I do per week, did you ask me? So I try to think of it in terms of a year. Right. I want to have a certain amount of painting time in a year. Um, and because I work at some schools that have term times, inevitably during the term, I have a lot less painting time. Yeah. And then in the long summer holiday, I have a lot of painting time. So I try to keep painting throughout the term, but there can be, you know, a few weeks together where I do not lift a brush. Yeah.

unknown 44:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

That's okay though. I I I'm happy with that. I don't want to have to rely on my painting to pay you know to support me. I don't, I I love being able to take as long as I like over a painting, not even know, not not have any idea if it's ever going to sell. I mean, what kind of a business plan is that? You know, it's it's crazy, really. Well, you are you're on that, yeah. I support it with my teaching that I love and that I missed during COVID. Yeah, no, I I wouldn't want to be in the studio all day, every day, because it's very solitary. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

No, I I'm I'm I mean, I've said this many times, you know, as soon as you start relying on your art to pay your mortgage, then you've got a problem, you know. And and I I I've always been really transparent about that. You know, I don't make I don't make a living through my prints or all my drawings. We'd it would I would be in in dire straits if I did. And and so I I think it's really important to have multiple streams of income and to know that there are times when you know you will sell a bit of work and there are times when you won't, but in the backbone, you know, the back in the backbone, the back um background, background, that's it. In the background, um, there is that steady kind of um input from your teaching. Yeah, I think I think you're right. I just want to I I want to kind of pick your brains a bit on this because it's something that I'm I'm not gonna say struggling, but it's I've over the past few months I have uh hardly done any, I have hardly been in the blue studio. This is the blue studio. I've been in the yellow studio. The yellow studio is where I do my teaching, my coaching, it's where I pack my orders, it's basically where all the admin happened. And I've been in that studio for four months pretty much constantly. And uh I just haven't made any work. I mean I've done I've done lots of traveling, I've done lots of drawing, which of course is was work and you know, but I've hardly made any prints. And you know, and I I know that that's okay, and I can tell myself that that's okay, but it got to a point last week where I thought I'm avoiding this. I am actually avoiding uh going in the studio because I feel out of touch. I feel out of touch with what I do, and you know, I was sort of I've been teaching Lino Cut in the past three four months, and I've taught a lot of Lino Cut, but I sort of think, God, I haven't done any for four months, and that's a very strange feeling. You know, I mean, do you feel do you have times where you do you know that you're avoiding going into the studio?

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Absolutely, and this is one of the reasons that I love your Instagram account and I love your podcasts, is because I think that we all struggle. Well, I definitely struggle with all sorts of I have to play games with myself, I have to, you know, cajole myself into making paintings, even it though I I love doing it, it is really hard to to to keep it going. And um so I mean last summer, I I I definitely sorry, I definitely go through phases where whatever you know, maybe I'm doing a lot of teaching, and I actually have two separate bits of my studio, so it's one room, but I have a table where I'm sitting now, and this is where I do my online classes, and I have my easel next to you know, in a separate bit, and so I can spend weeks never getting to the painting bit and being in the online teaching area, okay. Um, but for instance, last summer I was ill, and that was that meant that I had a very busy term of teaching, had to sort of step away from painting, and then just when I wanted to start my summer of painting, I got sick. And um, I mean, don't worry, it was no nothing really serious. Okay, it was just sorry, sorry, it sounds like I got ill. Um I what I mean the the point is that it was then you know, two or three weeks where I couldn't uh I couldn't paint, and then I had to get and I was tired, and I was like, how am I going to start? What seems like and I had to set up my whole new setup and everything, and it's it's you know, it's it's emotionally um demanding, and so what I said to myself was I'm going to do half an hour, yeah, and I can only do half an hour today. Now that felt achievable for me. I went to the studio, had my lunch, had a nap, and then did half an hour of painting.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

And I I and I enjoyed the half an hour, and it was brilliant. And then the next day I did another half an hour, and then the next day I did an hour, and I gradually built it up. Yeah. And that really did help me.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

Yeah, no, I think you're right. I mean, for me, I always say it's a bit like go go through the back door, don't go through the front door. And that's exactly what I did the other day. It's like, well, just come on, just come into the blue studio and just touch the lino. You know, just touch the lino, make a few marks, just do something. And and then I woke up the next day and I felt so much better because I knew that I'd taken that first step into engaging with my work. And you know, I think I I had a conversation the other day with was it one of my yes, it was one of my it was Bev. She asked me about how I look at my creative time. And I said, Well, the thing is for me, you know, my podcast, my YouTube, my coaching, they're all creative still, they're still creating mine, you know. I would definitely say my coaching in the morning, so I do a couple of sessions in the morning and probably a couple of sessions to back end the day, and that time in the middle is my time to do my stuff, but inevitably it gets swallowed up by doing other stuff, which is creative, but it's not I'm not physically producing anything at all. Yeah, you know, yeah, it has but I have to keep telling myself that uh no matter what, it is creative. I I mean, even Instagram posts, even all of that stuff, it's really creative. Yeah, it's just it's just not that obvious, like I've done a print or I've done a paper. So I think it's kind of uh changing uh our kind of perception of what our creativity is and what it looks like. And for me at the moment, it's looked very different to what it has done, say, a year ago. And that's okay. And I think the important thing is to not beat ourselves up about it, it's just accepting that you know our creative life ebbs and flows in different different ways, really, you know. Um but I guess I I I think I think that's important, and I think that having techniques or tools in your in your kit to be able to kind of get you back on track. Um but I wanted to also ask you, how do you how do you navigate your sort of personal life and your uh and your social life with your work? Is is that something that you sort of actively consider?

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Yes, it is, because I'm married and I obviously live with my wife, and so there's that, and I live in London where a lot of my friends live, and my you know, I have you know, my my mom and my brother and my nephew, and you know, so um yes, it and and you want to look at the whole of your life, don't you, and think is this um how I want to lead my life? Because it's got to be sustainable, how you you know break it down. Um I yeah, I mean I basically never paint at the weekends. Really? Okay, no, I I I teach sometimes on Saturdays or sometimes on Sundays, but I I um don't paint. So if I um yeah, so I spend the weekend either with my wife or doing chores, you know, all the kind of usual chores. And then on Thursday afternoons, I have sort of time in town because I teach at the National Gallery every Thursday morning during turn time. I then have Thursday afternoons that are really good for fitting in if I want to meet up with someone or go to an exhibition. Yeah, yeah. So I I've tried, I've really tried to think, okay, on Thursday afternoons, I'm gonna come to the studio and I'm gonna do some painting or I'm gonna do a drawing or whatever. And it's just never ever worked because there's you know, you've there's just so much to pack in, like going for an eye test or going, you know, going to see an exhibition. Like, when am I gonna do that?

SPEAKER_01 54:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

If uh so Thursday afternoons is my sort of time. Um, but yeah, I mean it's avoiding the studio. I mean, it I I hope that um creatives listening who haven't been doing it as long as we have been doing it, are uh maybe encouraged by the fact that we've been doing it for so long, and yet even we find it difficult to get ourselves into the flow of making work and you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

I mean, it's just I think we have to kind of break that sort of perception that it's all flowing out of us all the time, you know. Yeah, I mean I oh I know, I mean yeah, it's just not, I mean, it just isn't, and I I think I mean I don't think I've ever been so long without making a print. I mean, I've done a couple I did a couple of etchings earlier the year, but I I I've never had this length of time, and and I guess it's it's it's very interesting to notice those barriers that come up. And I think because I talk about all of this all the time with my creatives, it's like, oh god, well, I'm doing exactly the same thing as what I hear, making these excuses, oh well no, I haven't got time. And and actually what surprises me is actually how easy it actually is. I mean, physically it's really easy for me just to come from the yellow studio to the blue studio, you know, but how mentally hard it is, you know, that that is the thing.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

I know, and I think also I forget how much I enjoy being in the studio. Actually, I really enjoy it, and I I I often if I'm building up to uh uh you know a few weeks where I know I'm gonna have time to paint, I get really nervous and start putting things in in front of it, and then but but by the time I'm a few weeks into painting, I think, oh my gosh, I've forgotten that I actually love this. Like this is my happy place. Um, and I thought you gave such good advice the other day about um you know, getting into the studio, just making it your own, making a total place, maybe doing an online class there. Yeah, you know, I just thought that was brilliant. So yeah, if you just spend time there, graduate and just let it come let it happen at your own pace. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

I think I mean I had a studio when I lived in London. I did have a studio at Fish Island before it became achingly cool, but I really struggled to get there. I mean, for me, the barrier was just I've got to get there. And I had half my stuff in my house and half my stuff at the studio, and I just I'd get there, I would cycle all the way there down the canal, I'd get there and I think, right, what am I gonna do now? Oh no, I've forgotten that book that you know, and then I just could never do, I could never get into a routine with the studio, it just didn't work for me. Um, but so let's just quickly talk about your studio setup because I wanted to go back to something that you said earlier about having to be on a waiting list for around 10 years. I mean, are studio spaces in London that difficult to come by now?

SPEAKER_02 57:41

Well, it's just that the one I'm in, sorry to be smug, but is quite a good one because um it's not too expensive, and they I think from my experience they look after you pretty well. It's an acme one.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:56

Um uh yeah, they are pretty difficult. I mean, this I was talking to a friend the other day, and she was saying that that the studio kind of group that she's with, they've their whole um ethos is find a building that is is is not being used for anything at the moment and temporally create studio spaces for artists. Uh but they know that at some point it's going to be developed. And so you'll then, you know, and so it's really hard to find somewhere that feels stable, I think, that you can really settle into.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's there's new things that keep popping up. One of um one of my long-term students, lovely Francesca, who I taught at the Royal Joint School on the foundation, she has some kind of setup whereby she kind of rents a space, I think. In is it Shepherd's Bush or and there's all these things popping up whereby that you have a small space that you pay for access. I don't know. There's I think there's alternatives now that and you take your stuff away with you. Yeah, I think you take your stuff away with you, or you have a space that you rent and then you've got like a locker or a cupboard somewhere that you can leave stuff. I don't know, but but it what Fran was telling me, it sounded amazing. I must um I'll find the name of it because I think it sounds sounds really interesting. There are there are ways, and I mean, I literally when I realized that that studio, I think I had it for about three years, it just wasn't working. I I then turned, I was very lucky at my flat in London. I had a spare room, but it wasn't set up really for for for a like a studio space, and I turned an incredibly tiny room into a print studio, and I made so much work in the eight months that I was there before I moved out of to here. Yeah. Um, I think there's so much you can do with a small space. You know, there really is. There really is, absolutely, yeah. Just just be just be creative with it. Anyway, Laura, we could talk for hours. I mean, we've hardly I mean I had a whole list of things to talk about, um, but we've hardly touched on any of them. But what a lovely conversation. What a lovely, lovely conversation. So just to kind of round off, tell me what your plans are for the weekend, Laura. What are you up to?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

I am teaching a life painting inspired by Matisse workshop for London drawing tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:24

Okay, excellent.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

And then Sunday, hopefully, we'll be relaxed. Just relaxed.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

How about you? Um, tomorrow I've just got one creative coaching session and then I've got an online introduction to workshop, introduction to lino cut workshop on Sunday. So I've got two days of quite a big space, which is unusual. So I'm definitely gonna continue with my Lino Cut and maybe do some editing, put together this podcast. Brilliant. Yeah, all right, lovely. Listen, so oh hang on, where people can find you on your Instagram, Laura Smith. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

Yeah, my Instagram handle is Laura Jr. Smith. Okay. So my my middle names are Jean Rachel. So it's Laura Jr. Smith. Brilliant. There are so many Laura Smiths in the world. I could never have at Laura Smith, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

There's only one in my world, Laura. There's only one in my world. I will I will add all that to the show notes. So the show notes. Look at me, the show notes. Um yes, I'll add all that. So yeah, thank you again, Laura, and thank you for being my first guest. It's always true. Oh, and I'll see you next Wednesday. We're meeting up. We're going to the we're going to meet in Milton Keynes. That's right. To go and see the UNU Glow exhibition. Yeah. Yeah. It's very exciting. Now can we bring dogs? Rob hasn't told me if we could bring dogs or not. Well, uh he's expecting Marple.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:52

Marple. He's definitely expecting Marple. Yeah, yeah. So uh uh possibly we can leave uh Rob with Marple. Marple with the gallery person. Okay, and then or or Rob said he could take Marple and yeah, and we're gonna have to go out together.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

Leave Rob outside with Marple. He'll be very happy. All right, lovely. Listen, see you Wednesday. Look forward to it. Yeah, take care. Bye, bye, bye.