Episode 15: Artistic Ethics, Mailing Lists & Creative Identity

In this episode of The Creative Couch, I respond to three thoughtful creative dilemmas from Sarah, Lyn and Helen – exploring artistic ethics, building a mailing list from scratch, and the vulnerable question of whether to create under your own name or hide behind a brand.

Sarah recently spotted a print in an exhibition that looked strikingly similar to another artist’s well-known work. The similarities immediately left her feeling uncomfortable and questioning where the line exists between inspiration and imitation. She found herself wondering whether she was overreacting, whether the gallery or artist would already know, and whether she had any responsibility to say something at all. How do we navigate those ethically blurred creative situations without becoming “the art police”, and what responsibility do artists have when something simply doesn’t sit right?

Lyn is an abstract painter from Virginia who is trying to build a mailing list completely from scratch. Without a website, newsletter or strategy already in place, the whole process feels overwhelming and difficult to begin. We talk about the emotional resistance artists often have around self-promotion, how to start building an audience slowly and organically, and the practical realities of creating a newsletter through exhibitions, markets, workshops and genuine connection rather than aggressive marketing tactics.

Helen lives in Mallorca and is preparing to start selling her prints, but finds herself stuck on the surprisingly emotional question of whether to use her own name or work under a brand identity instead. Her surname feels difficult, foreign and disconnected from the place where she now lives and makes work, and part of her wonders whether hiding behind a more carefully constructed brand would feel safer. We talk about visibility, identity, authenticity, belonging, and why people often connect more deeply to a real person than a polished brand.

In this episode, I explore:

• The emotional difference between inspiration and imitation
 • Why ethically uncomfortable situations in the art world can feel so complicated
 • Whether artists have a responsibility to intervene when something feels “off”
 • How to begin building a mailing list from absolute scratch
 • Why newsletters are more about connection than marketing
 • The importance of growing an audience slowly and authentically
 • Why many artists feel vulnerable using their own name publicly
 • How branding can sometimes become a way of hiding
 • Why authenticity and personality matter more than appearing “perfect” online

Each dilemma is explored with both emotional insight and practical steps you can try in your own creative life.

If you have a creative dilemma you’d like me to explore, please email me at:

thecreativecouchpod@gmail.com

You can also find me on Instagram at @sammarshallarts

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Creative Couch. I'm Sam Marshall, artist and creative coach. This is a podcast for anyone navigating the ups and downs of a creative life. Each week I respond to three real creative dilemmas sent in by listeners, exploring both the emotional side of what you're experiencing and some practical ways to move forward. And from time to time, I'll also be joined by other artists to talk about their creative life, their practice, their challenges, and what keeps them going. Hello and welcome to the creative couch. So you will notice, those of you on YouTube, that the background looks slightly different today. And that is because I am sitting in my cottage and recording uh today's podcast. That is because um I've got some very noisy neighbours. So about four o'clock today, the farmer rocked up, uh, which is right next to my studio, the field right next to my studio, and um he started shearing hundreds of sheep. So there's a whole bevy of um farmers doing all sorts of things with shearing with shears and the poor sheep, and it's all really, really noisy behind behind my studio, and there's dogs, and it's just and they've got loud, pumpy music. So I thought, right, I can't record it in the studio. Let's go into the cottage. So I'm coming to you from the cottage. Marple's in the corner, she's snoozing here. Um, and it's uh it's the second podcast that I'm recording this week because I am going away next week to Italy, and I wanted to get another one in the bag so that I don't leave you guys without a podcast for a week. So um, this is what I'm doing. I'm busy recording uh another one, and thank you to everybody who sent in dilemmas. After I did a kind of call out and said, ah, hang on, I've got no more dilemmas to solve. A lovely selection of dilemmas came in. So thank you very much for that. And um, as always, if you would like to send in your dilemma, please do send them in to the creative couch pod at gmail.com and I will endeavour to answer them. So, because today has been slightly stressful and a bit chaotic, um, I haven't had a haven't really had a chance to think about what I'm going to suggest for my loving lately section of the podcast. So this is failing terribly at the first hurdle. I just sat down and thought, oh my goodness, I haven't thought about it. However, what I haven't particularly enjoyed today, uh, and I'm going to recommend it, is uh Marks and Spencer do the best hot cross bun. They do a luxury fruited hot cross bun. And I know we're not in hot cross bun season now. However, they sell this hot cross bun all year round, and it is absolutely delicious. I had a couple of those for my lunch, slathered in butter. Don't get doesn't get much better than this, than that. So that's all good, that's all good fodder. So that's what I'm recommending. Anyway, right, let's get on because I've got lots to do, and it's half past six on Wednesday night, and I've still got to pack to go to Italy next week. So we've got a big day ahead of us. We've got a big evening ahead of us. Um, most of my day today was derailed by the fact that my internet went down because I had a window cleaner here. He was cleaning the windows, and water got through the windows into my uh uh internet cables and basically disconnected on my internet. So today's been a bit of a muddle, a bit of a muddle and a puddle. Right, anyway, let's get on. Right. So today I'm answering uh Sarah's dilemma, I'm answering uh Lynn's dilemma, and I'm answering Helen's dilemma. So Sarah's dilemma, very interesting dilemma. Thank you for sending this in, Sarah. So Sarah said to me that she had recently entered a printmaking competition, and she'd spotted another piece of work in the um the publicity for the exhibition that immediately stopped her in her tracks. She said that the print looked strikingly similar to another well-known art, another piece of another print by another artist whose work she had she admired. And she'd actually got in touch with that artist when she first saw that print to see if she could buy a print of that print. And um, they'd already sold out of that edition. So she first of all she thought, oh, maybe it's the same print. And then she looked and she discovered that actually it wasn't, it was by a different artist, but this print looked almost identical to the print of the other artist that she had she had previously seen and admired. And she's in this exhibition, and it made her feel really uncomfortable because she sort of said, I'm not the art police, but it is a bit of an ethical dilemma. And she really wanted to know what I would do in this situation. You know, would I tell the gallery? Um, would I get in touch with the original artist to say, I've noticed this piece of work which looks almost identical to yours? You know, and she started sort of asking me, you know, what would, you know, what would somebody think if they bought the print in this print exhibition and then discovered that actually it looks almost like a direct copy of somebody else's. So basically she was kind of she was stuck in this in this um space of really not knowing what to do here and feel feeling like maybe she should just do nothing. But in her email, it became clear that she felt a bit uncomfortable about this, and she also felt that perhaps the gallery should know this as well. I mean, and she sent me images of of these um these works, and they are absolutely identical, and they're quite unique pieces of work. Um, and and it yeah, it is they're quite quirky and it and it is definitely it looks like there's a a real kind of connection, and it would it would make me feel uncomfortable. You know, I've had people in the past got in touch to say, Oh, Sam, I've seen this work, it looks a little bit like yours. And you know, most of the time I'm like, well, that's very flattering, like that's that's great, you know, because as artists, we are always referencing other artists, we're inspired by other artists, the influences are bound to come into our work, but you know, this this image in particular was did look like it was a pretty much a direct copy, which you know uh would would make me feel uncomfortable if I was the original artist. So she was really, you know, she just said, I feel uncomfortable about this, you know, what what what should I do? Um and I think I think when we look at the emotional layer of this, I can really feel that Sarah feels you know, she she's she's a little bit stuck here because she's noticed this connection. She feels maybe I should just do nothing, maybe I should just let it sit and and you know, not not so say anything, or maybe I should kind of maybe get in touch with the gallery. You know, she was sort of saying maybe I should get in touch with the gallery because maybe they should know. Um and I you know, I think for her it it's it's it's that it's that decision that she has to make for herself to think, right, okay, I didn't I didn't do anything about it, and that that's fine, I feel okay with that, or I'm I am going to do something about it because actually morally that feels better for me, better to me to do that. Um you know, and and I think it's it's it's something it's it's difficult with art, isn't it? It's really difficult. I mean, I often see things on Instagram where somebody's saying that their work's been you know turned into an AI image and I think this is happening more and more, and it, you know, and that I feel is a little bit different to something like this where it does look like somebody has copied somebody else's work, essentially, you know, and it's being it's in an exhibition and it will be seen. Um, so I think if and she was asking me what I would do. So I think there's three different approaches to this, and I think I will we'll talk through each each one. So the first one is do nothing. I mean, that's an absolutely valid, valid um uh, you know, choice, choice. Um, you know, you're not responsible for for policing the creative work, and and you know, maybe the healthiest thing to do is just sort of recognise your discomfort and then just continue on with your with your with your line in that sense, you know, just try and um you know uh say, well, I've thought about it, I've given it some consideration, and I'm just going to let it lie. Um, the option two would be to just quietly inform the original artist and just sort of say, you know, I wouldn't do it in an accusatory way in that I think this person's copied you, I would just, you know, maybe say something like, I saw a piece of work that strongly reminded me of your work, and I thought you might like to be aware of it, something like that. Um, and then the decision lies with the original artist, really. Um, it's up to them what they choose to do with that if they then choose to maybe do a little bit of investigation, a little bit of digging, and you know, maybe kind of having a conversation with the other artist and just sort of seeing where the land lies with that. Um and the third option is to contact the gallery. Um, but uh I sort of feel that this is a kind of a difficult one because uh, you know, galleries you know, galleries aren't responsible for kind of you know investigating every single piece of work that they uh, you know, especially in like an open call when they're showing multiple works. I mean, you know, they you you can't expect them to be kind of policing every single artwork that comes in. Um and they they I I I think it's a difficult one. I mean, I I think I myself personally I would go with option two, which would be I would would quietly inform the original artist and say, you know, I've I've seen this piece of work, it does remind me of yours. Just thought you might want to be aware of it, and then that that then leaves it up to them as to what they want to do with it, whether they would like to contact the gallery. I think contacting for them to contact the gallery is a much uh uh clearer route than you contacting the gallery. Um, but again, you know, I think all options are valid really. But I if I if it was me, I would be I would be I would probably be be contacting the um the original artist. Um and and just you know, not again, not doing it in an accusatory way, just sort of saying, I've seen this, but I thought you might want to be aware of this, you know, and then sort of leaving it with them, and then you feel like you've done your duty. Um but it is a difficult one, isn't it? It it's I think if you if you are directly copying somebody's work and then entering it in for competitions, uh then I think uh you you need to sort of take stock of why you're doing that. Um and it seems quite unusual. I mean it it seems quite brazen to me to be doing that, but I mean I guess it happens, you know. This this looks like this has happened in this circumstance. So let's um I mean I I I I leave it with you, Sarah. Let me know how you get on, let me know what you decide to do with that. Um, and hopefully you feel resolved with whichever, you know, whichever route you take. Um did I put some homework for this one? Okay, right, okay, I did put some homework. So I said, well, just sit with the discomfort for a day or two before taking any any action. And then I would say to yourself here, you know, um, if it still feels important, then send a message to the original artist. Um, and then I think the I I think also it's you know, we are we aren't the art police here, we're not the printmaking police. Our energy can often be taken away from us with various bits and bobs that we feel like we want to sort out. So sort of questioning to yourself, is this a distraction technique? Am I trying to am I procrastinating on focusing on this rather than getting on with my own work? You know, all that kind of stuff also comes into it, doesn't it? But um, but I I I'm with you. I think if if it had been me, I would have felt uncomfortable as well, and I probably would have wanted to do something about that. So thanks for sending that in. Really, really interesting question, Sarah. Okay, moving on to Lynn. So Lynn is an abstract painter from Virginia who has been building her drawing skills and trying to establish a sketchbook practice alongside her painting. She listens to the podcast, thank you, Lynn, and follows along on Instagram and has been reading Sketch, which is lovely to hear. Thank you very much, Lynn. Um, but Lynn's dilemma is less about creativity and more about the practical side of uh sustaining an artistic practice. She writes, I don't have an email list and wondered if you could give some ideas on building an email list from scratch. Ooh, good one, good one. So I talk a lot about this with my creatives. I talk a lot about um the importance of an email list. It is gold. It is absolute gold. Those those people who have subscribed to your uh newsletter who have actively chosen to opt in from hearing from you are you know, you they are your prized possessions, well not possessions, but you know what I mean. They are kind of they are gold because you know it if if anything happened to Instagram, if Instagram suddenly disappeared or you know, your account got hacked and you lost all your followers, you know, if you've got an email list, then you have got a way of contact people, contacting people who are interested in you and your work. So I always encourage trying to build up an email list. Um and I think that underneath all of this, your sort of the emotional kind of I kind of got the sense with with Lynn, what she was saying was, you know, am I am I ready to start an email list? Am I a professional enough to have an email list? Um you know, have I got enough to say as an as a as you know, as a as a budding artist to send out an email list? And I think, you know, an email, you know, a newsletter or a um, I mean, I we call it a newsletter. I mean, I I don't really send out newsletters, I just send out bits of information when it when I feel like it. I mean, I don't have, I mean, I have to say I don't have a structured plan to my emails that I send out. I I send emails out when I've got things to say. I mean, I know some people are really brilliant at like scheduling an email every month. Um, but I think it it's really personal to you. And I think there is an idea that I think puts artists off around sending out emails, you know, or a newsletter or you know, to their email subscribers, in that you know, you feel a bit uncomfortable, don't you? Because we're not good at promoting ourselves, are we as artists? We're really not. And it's a bit like, oh, I mean, I have that every time I'm not, I don't want to bother you. I don't want to bother you. But you see, these people have signed up. These people have signed up, they want to hear from you. Um, so I think it's you know, it's it is a two-way thing here, you know, they want to hear from you. So I think that, you know, like I say, underneath Lynn's uh email, I could sense there's a bit of like hesitation, you know, should I do this? Would they want to hear from me? That's what the email list is for. They say yes, they subscribe, they want to hear from you. And that's what you have to believe, that's what you have to trust, because that then enables you to then send out that email. Um, and and again, I've said this before you could have an email list of thousands and thousands of people who probably don't even click open, open that email. But if you've got, you know, you've got a list of 20 people who all of them click and they they they enjoy your email and they get something from it, that is far more valuable than a massive email list where nobody ever opens it. So, you know, you could start from the absolute basics. Um, so I'm gonna I'm kind of gonna I'm going to assume that you really don't have much of an email list at the moment. Um so let's go through the practicalities of what you need to do. So, first of all, you need to choose a newsletter platform. So you've got things like MailChimp, um, and then I'm gonna go blank because I can't remember the others. I use Flowdesk. So I use uh a platform called Flowdesk. I think it's really simple, it's quite beautiful, um, it's quite easy for me to navigate. I mean, you can design lots of really pretty things with it. I don't, I keep mine really simple because I just I don't have the time to do all fancy things with it, and I just like to get the information across. Um, so I use FlowDex. So you do need somewhere to collect your email addresses, okay. Um and I think the important thing to say here is that you do not need an email, a website to start an email list. You just need somewhere to collect your emails, you know. It's like a it's like a it's like a holding space for all your emails to go, okay. So have a look around, see what's out there. I mean, like I say, I mean, I was with MailChimp for a while, and then I I thought, no, I don't like this for some reason, and then I moved to Flowdesk. I think I got some kind of discount because I somebody gave me a code or something. So have a look around, but but choose a newsletter platform that that you think would work for you. And then I think start with the people who are already around you. You know, you could, you know, you I often advise this to my to my to my creatives, you know, if you're doing a fair, have a have a piece of paper and a sign-up sheet. You know, people can put their name down. If they want to hear from you, have a sign-up sheet. You know, maybe you've got um uh emails from students who have done your workshops before, or you know, um, you know, friends that support you, people who have bought work from you in the past, and you know, people who have shown genuine interest in your practice. Um, and then what I would do is gather that, gather those emails together. And let's say you've got about 20 emails, I would then send a lovely warm email to those people and just say, I'm starting a small newsletter, um, you know, where I'll occasionally share, you know, new work, sketchbook pages, updates. Um, and if you'd like to join, then here's the link. Okay, so they then have to then opt in to joining your email list. Okay, so that would be, I think, a really nice way to start. And it might be if you send out 20 emails, you get, yeah, but be but remember you're only sending out emails to people who have given you their email in the past. You can't just randomly shoot off a load of emails to people, you know. Again, you you need to be careful with that. You need to make sure that these emails, these people will have heard from you in the past and they, you know, they're not going to be bothered by you then emailing them. But um I think that's a really good way of starting. So you slowly build up that, um, you know, you slowly build up those, those, those, um, those contacts. And then what you then really do need, I mean, essentially, you then need to be able to get those people in to your newsletter, to your sorry, to your um uh to your uh email list. And the best way to do that then is to have a website whereby you can have a button at the bottom that says, you know, if you'd like to join my newsletter, sign up here. So so that then, you know, enables you to then keep gathering more and more people, and that will then slowly build up over time. So that would be the way I would do it if I'm starting from scratch. And you know, but again, you know, the real life, you know, markets fairs, open studios, workshops, I think that would be, you know, that's a really nice way to start. And then if you have a website, then embed the newsletter naturally. Um, because I think it's important that your mailing list becomes visible somewhere. Because if you've just got a you know, you just subscribed to Flowdesk or something, that's just that's if you don't have somewhere where you can show that, people can't actively then click and join. Okay, so initially you don't have to have a website, but but I think once you once you start wanting more people, you then have to have somewhere where they can actively click and say yes, please. Okay, so that's what I would do. Um, and don't overthink your newsletters. I mean, I I've I have done that in the past, and it's stopped me from actually sending things. And I have to always remind myself, these people have signed up to my newsletter or to my email list, they want to hear from me, therefore I'm going to send this email. And I don't overthink mine, I literally just I'll put it together, I keep it really simple, really easy to navigate, very friendly, and then I just send it. And I'm you, you know, I like I said, I'm there isn't a set time when I do mine. That's how it works for me. It's worked for me in the past. You'll find your way with it. So, okay, so I'm gonna give you some homework. So I would like you to choose one newsletter platform and create and and basically just do just do some research on that, just kind of find your way around that, think about different ones, see what they offer, see what the price points are, etc. etc. Um, and then I would send a general a gentle email to people who have, you know, who you Emails you've got in the past, and just ask them if they would like to sign up. And you then, you know, Flowdesk will give you a link, and then you can then you know embed that into the email. Um, again, collect names as you're doing workshops and fairs and that kind of thing. Um, and then I think send that, send that first newsletter, just send it, get it out there, see how it goes, and um, yeah, you'll be fine. You'll be finally. You've got this, you've got this. Okay, right, moving on to Helen's uh dilemma. So Helen lives in Majorca and is um Helen is German, but she lives in Mallorca and she's uh Mallorca, Mallorca, one with the two L's where I went to last October, I think it was, or November. Um anyway, so she is she writes and says she's finally beginning to think seriously about selling her prints, and her work is deeply inspired by the landscape and nature around her, but she's found herself stuck on a surprisingly emotional question. Should she work under her own name or create a brand name instead? Um, because part of Helen's dilemma is that her surname is German sounding, it's difficult to spell, and it doesn't feel particularly memorable online. This is what she wrote, this is not what I'm saying. Um and but also underneath that, there's something kind of a bit deeper, and that Helen has lived in Mallorca for 18 years. She speaks both Spanish and the local language, but she still worries that her name immediately marks her out as not local. And she wonders whether buyers looking for something authentic or genuinely Mallorcan might, Mallorcan, might feel put off. Um, so what she's been thinking about is creating a short brand name connected to nature and local symbolism instead. And she said she's thinking of that because it feels easier and softer, and partly because, in her own words, she says she feels she could hide behind it for a bit while she builds her confidence. Okay, right. Lovely, lovely dilemma, Helen. Because I think what's what's happening here is that it's not just about a brand name, is it? It's not just about a name for your business, it's about identity, it's about visibility, it's about belonging and it's about confidence. So all of those are in the mix, and I can see why you've got stuck on this one because one of the things that really stuck out to me in your email was that sentence, I can hide behind it a bit as I build things up. I really hear you on that, because I think having your name um using your own name at the beginning, it can I've just had a I've just got a reminder about my Japanese lesson tomorrow. It's come through. Sorry about that. Let's just click that off. Um, because I think that it can it can feel really vulnerable. You know, who am I to be start saying my name as I'm just starting out, you know, and I think what came across to me in your email, Helen, was that it's not a branding problem at all. Because I think you are the heart of the business here because your email was so warm, your personality shone through, you you know, your thoughtfulness, your connection, your deep connection to where you live. And I think that matters enormously. I really do. Um, and I think that's where your I think that's a real strength. And I think it that's what you need to highlight. So for me, rather than hiding behind some generic name, I think you need to claim that this is Helen, you know, this is Helen from Mallorca selling your print and celebrate the fact that yeah, you're not Mallorcan, but you've lived there for 18 years. You're absolutely, you know, uh justified making, you don't need to justify the fact that you make work about where you live. And I think that people will relate to this, you know. I think it feels really human. And I I do think personally that not that, I mean, okay, so I think we're right in that, yeah. This is the thing, this is what I've said here. I I don't think you need to hide behind the fact that you're not Majorcan, you know, lived there for 18 years, you speak the language, you've built a life up there, and your work comes from the lived experience of that landscape, you know, that is really authentic. That's super authentic, you know, and I kind of want to say that because I really hear that, and that came across really strongly. I if I was visiting Mallorca and I saw your work and I and I knew that you you you know you weren't a native Mjorcan, but you'd lived there for 18 years and you, you know, you would you I'd be fascinated. I'd be like, yeah, I'm really interested to see how you see the landscape through a different, you know, through through not being Myorcan. You know, it's I think it's very different when you're brought up there, when you're born there, you don't see things that that outsiders see. But I do, okay, so the practical layer is that I do hear your hesitation around your surname. Your surname is difficult, I can see that, and I would probably forget it. Um, and I think it would matter in a marketing perspective. But I think there's a middle ground here. I do think rather than disappearing behind behind a generic brand name, I think you do need to incorporate Helen into your into your your your your name somehow, okay. So your your your business name. I mean, I was kind of going through various bits and bobs and uh uh trying to come up with some names. I mean, I'm I'm I'm this is not really my strength because I call I'm Sam Marshall art. I mean, that's as simple as it gets, isn't it? But I was thinking something like Helen in Majorca. Um and you know, it's kind of using your name, but then having Majorca in there somewhere. I mean I think Helen in Majorca is really lovely. I mean, like that's the one that kind of stuck with me. But maybe you know, any other listeners that I think that are listening to this might be able to come up with a with a brand name for Helen, and maybe Helen might want to share her. I mean, Helen, if you're listening, share your Instagram platform or whatever. But I I th I think if you have your name in there, because I I personally think a name is really, really important, it gives you that connection to that person. I find if people send me comments on my Instagram, and I often like to respond to those comments and I like to use the person's name. And if it's something like Sun, see, and showers, I then go to Sun, see and showers. And if I can't find their name, and all I see is Sun, see and showers artist in Berkshire. I mean, I'm this is all really random, but if I can't see a name to that Instagram platform, it it creates a barrier for me. I like to know that person's name. I think it's really important. So I personally think you you came across as really warm, really engaging, really thoughtful, really lovely in your email. Let's celebrate you, let's have your name in your for your business. And I think that that then allows you flexibility. You know, don't I mean I don't think I often caution people I often advise people not to say something like uh Sam Marshall prints or or Sam Marshall drawing, or or I I always say try and keep your name broader, your art name broader so that it enables you to dip in and out of different techniques. You know, I do think sometimes it is a bit limiting if you just say uh Sam Print because you know, I don't just print, I do lots of different things. So I think having a name that enables you to grow organically as your business grows, I think that's a really sensible um thing to bear in mind as well. Right. Uh okay, right. So this so I don't think this is just about choosing the the the brand name. I think it's about you know it's it's it's about a fear of you being seen before you feel fully legitimate in a way, isn't it? And I think that, you know, obviously this whole I think it's it sounds quite a big deal to you about the fact that you feel like you're not that you know, even though you've been there for 18 years, you don't quite belong. But I think that that's almost your own issue in your own mind, and I think that will be very different to people who are wanting to buy your work because they won't know that, you know. Um I think there needs to be a sense of you, I really do. Um, your relationship with that with Majorca is genuine, obviously. You know, it's it's it's like me. I feel a deep connection to where I live, and I've lived here for 10 years, and I I, you know, I'm passionate about passionate about living here. I feel I feel totally connected to the landscape, and I I think that you know nobody can take that away from me just because I wasn't born around here. Right, so homework. Write down three possible names. And if anybody's listening and and you know, Helen wants to write her uh Instagram handle down, or you know, let's let's let's figure out some names for Helen. Um and then okay, so just throw throw out a load of different names and then sit with it for a few days and then think which one feels the most like you. And I think start then writing it down, start then kind of you know, just having it in your in your sort of vocabulary for a while, for a few weeks, you know, thinking about it and you know, just thinking about which one really lands, which one really sits. And then I think you will find something that feels really natural. And I think that you don't need to hide behind a name, Helen. You know, you are you, you are Helen in Majorca, you know, you are doing your wonderful prints. I mean, I haven't seen your work, so I don't. I mean, I'm I'm I'm assuming they're wonderful. I don't you know, um, celebrate it, celebrate it because I think that's what makes you really unique. It's a really interesting sort of backstory. So I hope that's helpful, Helen. How are we doing for time? Right, seven minutes past seven. I'm gonna go. I can hear the fact that the sheep have calmed down, so the farmer's now gone. So it's a good job I didn't leave it to record this until otherwise I wouldn't get anything else done tonight, and I've still got lots to do. So what do you think, Marple? Oh you could say can you see her down there? There she is. Look at her, she's so pretty. A little bit uncomfortable, Marple. Let's just let me show you just show people on on the on the telly. Here she is, here's Brown Girl. Beautiful. All right, lovelies. Well, listen, I hope you've enjoyed today's podcast. We are sending love. When you hear this, I will be in Italy with my mum and uh eight other wonderful women. So uh do follow along on my Instagram, on my stories, and I've hopefully I'll put a little video together for War of the Sending Love and uh we'll see you next week. Fingers crossed. Right, let's do a stop stop recording.