Episode 17: Pricing Artwork, Creative Flip-Flopping & Hobby Businesses

In this episode of The Creative Couch, I respond to three thoughtful creative dilemmas from Caroline, Alison and Laurel – exploring the emotional complexity of pricing artwork, the overwhelm of constantly changing creative direction, and the question of whether a calming creative hobby should become a business at all.

Caroline is a printmaker who has started selling her linoprints at fairs and markets, but pricing her work leaves her constantly second guessing herself. If a print doesn’t sell, she feels tempted to lower the price immediately, yet afterwards worries she has undervalued the work entirely. We talk about the emotional side of pricing creative work, the pressure of standing beside your work at fairs, why artists often struggle to separate value from self-worth, and how to develop a pricing framework that feels sustainable without losing accessibility and generosity.

Alison started drawing and painting three years ago and has become completely obsessed with creativity, but finds herself constantly flip-flopping between watercolour, acrylic, mixed media and different artistic influences online. Every new artist she discovers sparks excitement, but also leaves her feeling creatively unanchored and unsure what direction to pursue. We talk about overstimulation in the internet age, the difference between curiosity and creative fragmentation, why style usually emerges slowly through repetition, and the importance of staying with something long enough to move beyond the initial excitement.

After retiring two years ago, Laurel discovered crocheting and now describes it as “yoga for my hands.” She’s been making beautiful ponchos for friends and family and is wondering whether she should start selling them online through somewhere like Etsy. But with each piece taking weeks to make, she feels unsure whether she wants a business at all, or simply a gentler way of sharing her work. We talk about the pressure to monetise hobbies, the emotional shift that happens when creativity becomes commercial, and how to share handmade work without losing the joy that made you fall in love with it in the first place.

In this episode, I explore:

• Why pricing artwork is often far more emotional than practical
• The pressure artists feel when selling work face-to-face at fairs and markets
• How accessibility and sustainability can sometimes pull in opposite directions
• Why social media can leave creatives feeling overstimulated and creatively fragmented
• The difference between curiosity and constantly abandoning work too soon
• How artistic style often emerges slowly through repetition rather than force
• The pressure many people feel to monetise hobbies after retirement
• Why creativity does not always need to become a full business
• Gentler ways to begin sharing handmade work without losing the joy of making

Each dilemma is explored with both emotional insight and practical steps you can try in your own creative life.

If you have a creative dilemma you’d like me to explore, please email me at:

thecreativecouchpod@gmail.com

You can also find me on Instagram at @sammarshallart

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Creative Couch. I'm some martial artist and creative coach. This is a podcast for anyone navigating the ups and downs of a creative life. Each week I respond to three real creative dilemmas sent in by listeners, exploring both the emotional side of what you're experiencing and some practical ways to move forward. And from time to time, I'll also be joined by other artists to talk about their creative life, their practice, their challenges, and what keeps them going. Hello and welcome back to the Creative Couch. How are you all? I hope you enjoyed last week's episode with my wonderful mum. So we're now back from Italy. Mupple's here on my lap. It's uh reasonably cold. Sunday in June. Uh I might get a bit hot and take my jumper off later, but as it stands, it's about 1.30 on Sunday and it's pretty cold out there. So I don't know what's going on. Um anyway, I hope that, yeah, I hope that you're all doing okay. And uh as always, I'm going to make a plea for your dilemmas. I've got enough for today's podcast and next week's podcast, and then I've got nothing. So when I make a plea for the podcasts, I normally get a load in. So that's what I'm hoping uh will happen this time. So please send in your podcast dilemmas to the creative couch pod at gmail.com and I will endeavour to answer them as fulsomely as I can. So this week we have dilemmas from uh the first dilemma we've got is from Caroline and then Alison and then Laurel. Okay, hang a second. Um one second, let me just check this message one second. Um okay. Okay, um, right, let's have uh let's get let's get into it, let's get into it. So I got distracted by that message that's just come in. Okay, right, so uh the first dilemma comes in from Caroline. So Caroline uh is a printmaker, she's selling her Lino cuts at fairs and markets, and this is quite a recent um endeavour for Caroline. Um and she started selling more recently and more regularly, but she finds pricing really difficult. She knows the hour she's put in and the cost of materials, but then she struggles to arrive at a price and actually stick to it. If the work doesn't sell, she says the temptation is to quickly lower the price, but then afterwards she looks at the work and feels as if it's been underpriced. So I guess really what Caroline's question is is how do we price our work in a where in a way that feels fair, sustainable, and emotionally manageable? Because I think that's the key here, emotionally manageable. And I'm going to be really transparent with you here, Caroline. I'm not talking today from a uh place of having this all sorted myself. Pricing is something that I still struggle with. Um, and I don't think there's a point really where artists arrive uh with complete certainty around their work. Um, because I often think I underprice my work. I do think I have a tendency to do that. Um, and I really admire my friends who are able to say, right, that's what I'm going for, that's the price of it, and I'm going to stick to it. Um, but I'll I'll dig a little bit more into that um in a bit. But um I think pricing is emotional, isn't it? Because when we price our work, we feel as if we're putting a value not just on paper and ink, but on our own creativity, our own confidence, and our own experience. And I think that can be really tough. I think that can be really tough. And I think fairs especially are uh really intense places to sell work because you know you're physically standing by the work while people kind of come and go, have a browse, sort of chat to their friends, look disinterested. You're also surrounded by other people who are, you know, selling selling stuff, and you know, sometimes you see them selling loads of stuff, whereas you're not selling any stuff. And I think, you know, it can be it can be really tough. I mean, I I don't do many fares. Um, I have to be honest. I'm being really honest here, aren't I? I don't have a clue about pricing my work and I don't do fairs. No, no, that's that is unfair on myself. I do have I do have a good sense of pricing, but I don't do fairs. Um I don't do fares for many reasons, but that that's not it's not about me, it's about you. So um, but I I hear you on that. I think fares can be really, really difficult. And um, but I think it it's a matter of not taking that personally, isn't it? When you're at a fair, people might might love the work um and need time to think about it. They might have already spent their money elsewhere, they might follow up and buy work elsewhere online. I mean, sorry, might follow up and buy your work online a bit later. Um, and I think one of the important things is to not emotionally panic um during a the middle of a fair. I mean, obviously you're not going to suddenly go around changing the prices on everything in the middle of the fair, but what I'm hearing from you is that perhaps what happens is that when you go home and maybe you haven't had a good experience at that fair and that market. And let me tell you, Caroline, that I coach a lot of creatives who do lots of fairs, and this year has been really tough. I mean, I across the board, I don't think I, you know, there's a couple of people who I know are doing well with fairs, but but overall, I think that the the foot falls down, people haven't got a lot of money to spend. So a lot of people I speak to who do fairs are feeling a bit demoralized at the moment. Um but I think so. What I hear you, what I hear you were saying to me was that you um, you know, you do a fair, you then go home, and then you're questioning your prices before the next fair, and you you what you think maybe I should lower them for the next fair. I think that's what you were basically saying. Um but I think hold tight, hold tight with this. Let me finish what I'm saying, and then hopefully you'll have a bit of a clearer idea and you'll feel a little bit more comforted as to where you are with things. Um, because I think pricing pricing differs from each artist, it's a very personal thing, isn't it? We all have very different circumstances, you know, and I think our values affect our our pricing, our prices accordingly. I mean, for me personally, I want accessibility matters. I've always wanted my prints to be uh uh and my drawings to be at a price point that people can afford to buy them. I don't want my work to be stuck in my drawers, I want them to be out there. So therefore, I one of the reasons why I keep my prints affordable is because of that reason. I just don't want them to be sat in my drawers. I'd rather people be enjoy enjoying them out in the world. Um but that doesn't necessarily that doesn't mean I am underpricing myself to exhaustion, you know. I I think there's a real danger for that, you know, you put your prices too low. People then think, oh, well, maybe that's not worth it then. And they then judge judge the value of your work on how you've priced it. Um, so I think a lot of artists are often trying to find a balance between accessibility and sustainability. I think that's the the truth of it here. And I think over the years, I personally feel I have developed a sense of what feels sustainable, what feels fair to the buyer, and what feels fair to me. Because what you don't want is to be selling your work at a price where you feel resentful, you know, like packaging it up. You know, it's not their fault that you've bought the work, you know, if you're pricing it too low and somebody's bought the work because they're like, that's a great price, and then you feel resentful because they've bought the bought the work at a lower price. Um, so you did ask about whether I have a process about my pricing, and I would love to give you a really scientific answer about, you know, I I've got a spreadsheet and I've got all the costings, and that isn't the case, that isn't me. Uh my dad would love it if I'd had an Excel spreadsheet, but uh I don't. So mine is very unscientific. Um, but what I do have is I have a clear sense of you know the size of my smaller prints, my medium prints, and my larger prints. So I have a rough gauge, and that has gone up over the years. Absolutely, that has gone, you know, I've definitely increased my prices over the years, um, as you know, my experience has grown, my um, you know, my uh capabilities have grown, and as I've gotten more recognized as a as a as an artist out in the world. Um, but so certain things, if we're talking about printmaking, so certain things affect the price, you know, the size of the print often you know comes into factor. You know, if you're doing a large lino cut, that's obviously going to be much more expensive than a tiny little lino cut that you've done. Okay, so obviously that that comes into play, the size of the work, that's obvious. The edition size matters too, doesn't it? So if you're doing a really large edition as opposed to a smaller edition, the larger edition will be priced accordingly. So it'll be cheaper than a smaller edition. So let's say you did a you know uh a lino cut of this size and it's an addition of 10, and you did another lino cut that size and it's an addition of 250, then the 251 should really be cheaper than the uh one out of the you know the edition of 10, um, because there's fewer opportunities to buy the one of 10 than it is than there are to buy the one of a hundred. Um so obviously complexity comes into it. So if you're producing a really uh complicated multi-block lino cut, then that is obviously going to be much, well, I say much more be more expensive than a single block. So I mean I tend to tend to kind of uh you know bear that in mind, obviously. Um yeah, and um, I mean for me, I uh it it's not I don't rely on my prints to uh pay my mortgage, and I've said that many times. So my printmaking isn't my sole uh income at all, you know, it's a very small, very small chunk of of my overall kind of work as an artist, how I sustain myself. So, you know, I do think if if if I was looking for my prints to be a bigger part of my income, then I might need to radically change my pricing system. But this is for me, this is where I am, this is my life with all the different elements of my my income coming in. So again, it all of that I think factors into how you price your work. Um so I've like I said, I've fallen into having rough brackets in my head for smaller prints, medium prints, and larger prints. And so when I finish a piece of work, I'm not starting from scratch every single time. I know that I know that my work tends to sit in a range, and that feels familiar to me. So I think that consistency is important and really helpful. Um, and and having a framework gives you something steady to kind of lean against. And I also think it is helpful for you to look at other printmakers uh who are making work similar to you, you know, get get a gauge of what they're charging, look at their edition size, look at the complexity of the prints, what are the, you know, and I think it's helpful. I think that kind of is, it's not because you should copy them exact exactly, but it just gives you a sense of the wider landscape, doesn't it? So I think that's um uh I think that's important, you know. So obviously, if people around you are charging significantly more than you for a similar size and complexity, then maybe that is a sign that you're undervaluing your work. Um okay, so there's the I've just listed a few things involved in pricing. So these are things to consider: experience, audience, location, confidence, financial circumstances, um, and you know, like I've said, whether whether you're you you've got other forms of income. I think that's important to kind of weigh all of that in. Um, but I don't think there's a universally correct price for a lino lino cut prints. I think it's about slowly finding a place where your work, your audience, and your sense of sustainability begins to meet. Um and I think, you know, I do think that that we as artists sometimes forget that pricing communicates something. I mean, like I said before, if something is priced extremely low, people can subconsciously assume that it has a lower value, even if the work itself is wonderful. So again, there's a balance to strike between accessibility and confidence. And and confidence is part of this conversation, isn't it? It's not arrogance, it's confidence. It's about being able to quietly say, This is the price of my work without apologising for it. Um, right, where's my last note? Okay, right. Um hang on. Where's the last of my notes for you? Hang on. Okay, here we are. Right, this is the last of the notes. Um, okay, so I I've scribbled down here. I think it's worth remembering that buyers are not just paying for paper and ink, they're paying for years of learning, years of experience, all the failed prints, all the things that have gone wrong, all the courses you've taken, etc. etc. You know, so a print might take three hours to carve, but in reality it's taken sort of 15 years to learn how to make that print. And I think that often we do forget that. Right. So, in summary, Caroline, I think pricing is something that we grow into naturally rather than completely solve. Uh, I don't think there's a complete I don't think there's a perfect formula, but I do think it helps to create a framework for yourself so that you're not making emotional decisions in moments of self-doubt. And I think I think perhaps the aim is not to find the perfect price, but arrive at prices that allow you to keep making the work without resentment, panic, or burn, burnout, you know, like I talked about, um, because sustainability is the key thing here. You want to be able to feel that you can continue to make the work. Um, right, so I've given you some high work. I would like you to look at your work and create sort of three or four broad pricing brackets for smaller work, medium work, and larger work, and not rigidly, just enough to create consistency that can reduce the sort of emotional decision making. And the second time, and and the second thing I think if you're in a market and nobody's buying stuff, rather than slowly panicking about it again, just take some time, just just just reassure yourself that you're doing what you can do at this moment. These prices are where you are at this moment, okay? Don't do anything, don't do anything radical, don't go around scribbling out the prices and changing the prices. I know you wouldn't, but just I think just be aware of when those feelings are coming up of like, oh my goodness, everybody's selling loads more than me. Maybe I'm overpricing myself, maybe I should just drastically do a clearance sale and sell out everything. Just calm down, take a breath. I know that sounds, I don't mean that to be patronizing. I do find that patronizing when people tell me to calm down. Just calm down, Sam, take a breath. Um, I guess what I'm like what I'm trying to say is just try and think about where that's come from. You know, you often when we have these feelings, we can sort of locate the trigger that that that's caused those thoughts and feelings. And just just just rest assured that your pricing is solid at the moment and you don't need to change anything. I think that's the key. Just just keep keep yourself solid, keep being aware of those thoughts and feelings that come in, but rest assured that you're doing what you can for yourself at the moment. Your prices sound to me, I mean, I don't know, but from what I can say, I I would probably think you're in a really comfortable bracket here, Caroline. I don't think you're probably overpricing yourself. I don't think you're underpricing yourself. So um I think through through through time, through growing confidence, you'll feel much more secure in the in lay well. Okay, right. Thank you for that, Caroline. Great question. Uh the next question comes in from Alison Dilemma. Um, and I like I liked to I like the word that Alison uses in here. She keeps calling it flip-flopping, which I think is a great way to summarise what's going on for Alison. So Alison says she started drawing and painting three years ago, and she has become completely obsessed with creativity. She but she finds herself constantly flip-flopping between different styles, mediums, and ways of working. One month she loves watercolour, next month she's pulled into acrylic, then it's mixed media. And what she says is she sees artists online, gets incited and spotted and inspired, buys all the materials and suddenly wants to move in a completely different direction again. And she said she wonders whether this is simply part of being at the beginning of a creative journey and how some artists seem able to find one style or medium and stay with it over the years. So I think underneath all of this, Caroline is asking, sorry, Alison is asking, how do we stop creatively flip-flopping all the time and develop consistency without losing enjoyment and curiosity? Now we have had dilemmas in the past that have kind of touched upon this, but I think Alison is Alison's is so clear and so uh you know, it's very much about not knowing where to go and and and being too um attempted by all these magical kind of techniques that look so alluring. Um so I thought it would be worth going over a dilemma like this again. Um and I think you know, partly one of the reasons why I think this is so common now is because you know, the biggest difficulty is not lack of inspiration, it's it's too much of it in a way. I think we're, you know, we go online and we're constantly constantly being shown sort of beautiful work, lovely materials, beautiful studios, and exciting processes. I mean, you could just sit on Instagram all day and just be fed all of these amazing creatives with their wonderful techniques, and it becomes yeah, you it's a bit you're a bit like a kid in a sweetie shop, you want it all. And I do think it's really easy to then flip-flop between things before we've stayed long enough to really develop depth. You know, like one week we should be doing one week we're doing lino cuts, the next week we're doing ceramics, and suddenly somebody online's doing tiny oil paintings that we think we should give a we should have a go at. And I I hear you, I do hear you, and again, it's something that I hear again and again and again. Um, but what I do think it is creating is a sort of a strange kind of restlessness. Um and and it's not because we're untalented or flaky or or um or any of those things, it's because we're overstimulated, you know. Um and I think particularly at the beginning, when you're uh you haven't quite settled into the technique that suits you best. So you're constantly searching and you're constantly being dangled, you know, attractive things in front of you. Um and I think you're what you're responding to is is excitement, and there's nothing wrong with that, you know, excitement matters and curiosity matters, but I think one when you're constantly creating novelty, it can prevent us from from developing death. Because I think that I love the I what I write down was I think the interesting work begins after the honeymoon, you know, so after the first excitement, after the first wobble, you know, the and uh after the first point. Because I also think what happens with learning lots of different techniques all at one time is that you quite quickly become disillusioned with it, it loses its novelty and it's like, right, on to the next. What else can I do to kind of you know uh create that feeling that I had at the beginning? So um, and you quickly abandon it and you move on to the next thing. So the practical layer here, I don't think that the answer is you must put pick one medium and stick with it forever. I don't think that's um um, I don't think that's advisable, and I don't think it's achievable because you know, like look at me. I mean, my practice involves many different things, you know, printmaking, draw and printmaking, and within that bracket, etching and lino cut, you know, I've got my sketchbooks, I've got my sketchwork, I've got my teaching, I've got, you know, all of these things come into my practice. Um, and I don't think you just need to do one thing at all, but I do think you need to give yourself a temporary focus, um, almost giving yourself a bit of a creative diet. So, you know, for the for the next few months, this is my lane, this is what I'm going to stay in. And I again, it's not forever, it's just long enough to move beyond that initial excitement uh into something deeper. Um, and again, I've said social media, I keep writing social media, um, and your body. Starts thinking, well, maybe I should do this instead. Um, but I think what's important here is to remember there's a difference between being creatively curious and creatively anchored, because I think curiosity is healthy, experimentation is healthy, but if you every week you're abandoning one thing and moving on to the other, I think you can end up feeling fragmented and confused. You know, I mean, we all do it, don't we? I mean, my brain feels totally fragmented at the moment, you know. I mean, I'm trying to do so many different things, and I know that I feel much better when I give myself two or three things to focus on on the day in the day and I do them well rather than flip-flopping, I love that word, between this and that and this and that and this and that. And I come out at the end of the day feeling like I don't know what I've done. You know, whereas if I focus on three solid tasks like today, I had to come up with the imit with the images for sketch club, which is later. Sorry, I've got to take my top off. I had to sit down here this morning and I had to come up with the images for Sketch Club, which is what time is it now? Quarter to two. I've got Sketch Club at four o'clock. Let me just sort my hair out. I've got Sketch Club at four o'clock. So I had to sit down this morning, get the images done for Sketch Club. I had to record the podcast, and I've also got to pack any outstanding orders. Now, I know that I've given myself enough time in the day to get these things done, and I think it's the same with that. You know, I think what I'm advising you is to stick with one thing for a certain amount of time and just give it your full attention. Okay, uh, right. So your homework is I want you to sit down with the with a piece of paper and look at all the things that you've done. Okay, look at all the things that you've done so far. Not all the things you want to do, because I think they go into a different list. I can see a hair kind of where is it? Anyway, certain things irritate me when I'm recording. I know that you guys on YouTube can't see you guys on audio can't see me. Let's just forget about that. Um, right, right, okay. Take a sketchbook. Sorry, take a piece of paper. I'm still trying to catch that hair. Um take a piece of paper, write down all the things that you've done so far, not what you want to do, what you've done so far. And then I add I want you to then write down the three three of the things that have excited you the most that you feel most drawn to. And then I want you to give them a number one, number two, number three. That is your plan. Okay, so for the first one, let's say that you've been most excited about collage, right? You focus on collage for the next three weeks and you just do that. And I know that this has come up before because I feel like I'm repeating myself a bit, but it I'm still going to give you the same advice that I gave somebody a few weeks ago. Give yourself a structure, stick to it, stick to it. And then once you've done like collage for three weeks and mixed media for three weeks, and then acrylics for three weeks, then I think you can sit back and evaluate it and think, right, okay, which one out of those I really did I really did I enjoy the most? So you're beginning to understand the way that you work. You know, like I know that I don't enjoy watercolour very much. I know that I'd much prefer to have a week doing acrylic or gouache. You know, I know that because I've played around with both of them. So I would definitely be giving my time to something like, you know, gouache or rather than watery acrylic uh watery watercolours. So, you know, I think now is the time. Now that you've given yourself, by the sounds of it, you've been playing around for for a good few years. Now's the time to kind of hone in a bit, you know, let's kind of narrow the the path a bit and see see where you get. I hope that's helpful, Alison. Thank you for that dilemma. And the next one comes in from a long-term follower of mine, the lovely Laurel. So Laurel lives in the US and um she says that she's retired two years ago. And she, after taking one of my online drawing classes, she's big she's begun to explore different creative outlets, and she's fallen in love with crocheting. And I love the way she describes it. She describes it as yoga for my hand. She says she's been making create crocheted ponchos for friends and family, and is now wondering whether she should start selling them somewhere like Etsy. Because each poncho takes weeks to make, and she only has one or two at a time, and she feels unsure about what kind of platform really makes sense. So she's also overwhelmed by the practical side of things. When she starts thinking about maybe selling her work, she gets overwhelmed with the shipping, the returns, how to get started, all that kind of stuff. And she wonders whether there's a gentler or simpler way to begin sharing her work. She also says that oh no, I've already mentioned that she um makes uh ponchos for her friends and family. So I think really essentially what Laurel's question is how do you know when a creative hobby should become something more commercial? And how do you share your work without losing the joy of it? Okay, I love the word, I love the phrase yoga for my hands, um, because I think that is exactly what it is, isn't it? You know, it calms you down, you know, it's something that you can do while chatting to people, I'm I'm assuming. Um, it's a lovely meditative thing, and I'm really pleased that you found your your technique, um Laurel. Uh and again, you know, it goes back to what Alison was saying, you know, I'm sure that you've you said you've had a few years to kind of creatively play around and you've kind of found the thing that brings you the most joy. And obviously, when that when you find that and you start feeling comfortable with it and you start feeling confident with it, along that lane, well, yeah, give it to friends and family. And the next step is, well, should I try and monetize this? Um, and I think that's a natural progression, isn't it? It's a natural core progression from once once you've given something time and it's started to evolve, you're like, right, okay, my friends and family like it. Maybe I should start selling it. Um, and then suddenly you start thinking, well, if I'm going to sell it, I'm sort of turning it into a business, aren't I? And then suddenly there's the pricing and the shipping and then the advertising and all of that. Um, and and I think it's it's quite a it's quite a big jump, really. It's quite a big jump. And I think let's not underestimate the jump from making something for friends and family to something opening or to something like opening an Etsy shop. Because actually, I think there's lots of softer places to explore in between. Um, and the question I want to ask you, Laurel, is you know, what do I actually want from this? Because I think there's a big difference between I want to occasionally sell a poncho to I want to run a crochet poncho business. They're two very different lives. Um, and I think, you know, did did we say that you retired? Yes, yeah, yeah, I did say that, yeah. And I think, you know, this is you've retired now, haven't you? So I would be asking you whether you do want to suddenly go into the hustle of maybe opening an online shop with all of the hassle that goes around that, especially someone like Etsy. I mean, I would really steer you away from Etsy, um, because I think that it would just add extra pressure to you. And I think I I want again, I want you to come back to why is it that you want to do this? You know, do you want to do you do you, you know, are you wanting to make money from this? Because I I don't think creativity always has to just justify itself create, um, sorry, financially or commercially. Um, so I think you need to be really clear about that. Why is it that you're wanting to really do this? Why is it that you're wanting to do this? Um I think your work sounds really beautiful, slow made and personal. And if one poncho poncho takes weeks to make, then perhaps sort of your business model, if if we're going to call it that, needs to slow to stay slow, small, and gentle. Um, so you know, I I think let's just test the waters softly here. I think something like sharing photographs of your work online, perhaps just creating an Instagram crack account for your ponchos, for your crochet, you know, that would be great, I think. And then just start sharing photographs of the work, just share them online and and then maybe create a Facebook page. I I don't sell on Facebook, but I know that a lot of people do, and I know that it can be a really good way to start sharing your work. And or maybe just uh get friends to recommend you to other friends if you want to do that. So, you know, you could just begin by saying, I'm happy to take occasional commissions, because I think made to order might suit your process more rather than building in lots of inventory and feeling overwhelmed with orders that are coming in. You know, you don't need shelves full of ponchos, you know. I think the fact that they take time and love is part of their charm. Um, you know, thinking about local craft markets or or, you know, uh a small Christmas fair, something like that. Just just start smallly, tread gently, I think, rather than going in to something like an Etsy shop. Um I just think begin sharing your work with the world and see how that feels. And you're allowed to keep it small, you know, just because something is people have said they like it and you suddenly feel like you're doing this, you're spending a lot of time on this, you know. Again, it doesn't have to be commercially, you don't have to sort of tout it commercially. But again, let's go back to that question: why are you wanting to do this? Because I think that will give us a lot of answers here. And I just want to say there's absolutely nothing wrong with somebody who makes beautiful things slowly and occasionally sells them. I mean, that's still perfectly valid. It's wonderful, it's brilliant. So I think before worrying about Etsy shipping and returns, ask yourself what kind of, this is what I wrote down here, what kind of relationship do I actually want with this creative practice? Okay. I think the challenge is not simply to learn how to sell your work, but learning how to share it in a way that protects the calm, pleasure, and rhythm that it takes to create the work. Right. So your homework. I would like you to take some photographs of your work, Laurel. I would like you to take some photographs of your work, get some help from people who know how to do this, get some advice online about how to photograph you know, clothing, um, and then share them somewhere. So if you do have an Instagram account, share it to your Instagram account. Get used to people seeing the work, get used to sort of seeing how it feels to get some feedback online. Um, and then ask yourself, how is it feeling for people to see this work? You know, because again, I think that will give us a lot of um answers as well. So, you know, how does it feel to share it? How does it feel for it to be out there in the world? Because it's very different looking at a piece of a poncho in real life and then suddenly having it somewhere that people can see it online. Um, and again, I want you to get really granular about what you want from this, what what you want from if you do want this to be something financially, you know, to get something back from this financially, you know, we do, I think you do need to write down what it is that you want from it. So, you know, do you want it as a relaxing hobby? Do you want it for occasional commissions, a tiny side income, you know, or a proper business? I mean, I'm I'm not I'm not saying don't do all of this. I'm just saying I think at the moment there's gentler ways to ease yourself into starting to sell your work, especially given your circumstances and you know, um, you know, you want to enjoy your retirement, you don't want to be shipping crow, shipping ponchos around the world, feeling stressed out about it, suddenly making them at a pace. Anyway, um, thank you guys. Brilliant dilemmas as always. Do send them in, do keep them coming in. I've got some great ones to answer next week. Um, we're sending love. We're sending love. So this has been going on for oh, it's good, it's been 35 minutes, I think. Um, it's been lovely to spend this Sunday afternoon with you, and um yeah, thanks for all your lovely messages, and I look forward to seeing you again soon. Pause recording, stop recording.