Episode 18: Digital Art, Creative Time & Leaving Teaching

In this episode of The Creative Couch, I respond to three thoughtful creative dilemmas from Mimi, Louise and Cally – exploring digital art, creative time, financial security and the realities of building a creative life.

Mimi is a retired nurse, educator and psychotherapist from the Pacific Northwest who returned to her first love of making art later in life. She creates digital artwork using Procreate and produces giclée prints, but has repeatedly been told by local exhibitions that they "don't do digital work". We talk about misconceptions around digital art in the age of AI, why some art spaces may still be catching up with newer mediums, and how artists can find their audience even when traditional institutions don't yet understand their work.

Louise is a hand embroidery artist from South Africa who left teaching to pursue her creative practice full time. While she feels incredibly grateful to be making a living through commissions, she finds herself with little time left for her own ideas, series and creative exploration. We discuss the tension between earning from creativity and protecting it, why your own work deserves a place in the diary alongside paid work, and the importance of creating boundaries around creative time.

Cally is a printmaker and secondary school teacher who has spent more than twenty-five years balancing teaching with her artistic practice. Now in her fifties and feeling burnt out, she wonders whether she should take a sabbatical, retire early or continue teaching for a little longer. We talk about grief for the creative life we imagined we'd have, financial fears rooted in childhood experiences, and why building a runway towards change can sometimes be kinder and wiser than taking a leap into the unknown.

In this episode, I explore:

• Why rejection isn't always about quality, but sometimes about category and understanding
• How artists working in newer mediums can help audiences connect with their process
• The challenge of protecting personal creativity when paid work fills every available hour
• Why creating boundaries around creative time can be just as important as earning from it
• The grief many creatives feel for the artistic life they imagined they might have had
• How financial fears rooted in childhood experiences can shape creative decisions decades later
• Why gathering information can be more helpful than making dramatic leaps
• The difference between taking a leap and building a runway towards change
• How to make decisions from facts rather than fear

Each dilemma is explored with both emotional insight and practical steps you can try in your own creative life.

If you have a creative dilemma you'd like me to explore, please email me at:

thecreativecouchpod@gmail.com

You can also find me on Instagram at @sammarshallart.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Creative Couch. I'm some martial artist and creative coach. This is a podcast for anyone navigating the ups and downs of a creative life. Each week I respond to three real creative dilemmas sent in by listeners, exploring both the emotional side of what you're experiencing and some practical ways to move forward. And from time to time, I'll also be joined by other artists to talk about their creative life, their practice, their challenges, and what keeps them going. Hello and welcome to the Creative Couch. So I've been waiting to record this podcast all day because I've had builders here putting tiles on the roof. So it's been really, really noisy. Anyway, they've gone now. So it's Sunday afternoon. It's about four o'clock. Well, it is four o'clock, it's just past four o'clock. And um, yeah, I'm just settling down. Marple's outside in the sunshine. It's actually sunny, it's been raining all week here. It's been absolutely miserable. So she's outside sunning herself. I'm sure she'll make an appearance at some point. Anyway, thank you to everybody who sent in your podcast uh dilemmas this week. I've been inundated, which is amazing. Uh, but I still would like some more. The the email could the email box could do with topping up. So please do send your dilemmas in to the creative couch pod at gmail.com. And a few of you pointed out that um my new segment, uh loving lately, has been absent for the past two episodes. That's because I forgot, I absolutely forgot um to do it. So um anyway, it's back this week. So today I am recommending a brilliant podcast called Love Trapped. Now, a few years ago I was really immersed in like crime podcasts, you know, those kind of nitty-gritty scam podcasts. I loved them, and then I kind of I OD'd on them and I thought I can't take them anymore. Anyway, somebody recommended this to me, and I thought, right, I'm gonna give it a go. And it's absolutely brilliant. It's bonkers, it's about a former bachelor star. Now, I've never watched The Bachelor. I know it's an American TV programme with um a man mostly, I think. Bachelor, um, and a group of ladies. Anyway, uh you don't need to know about The Bachelor to enjoy this podcast. Um, it's about a bachelor called Clayton who gets involved with a woman who then turns then declares that she's pregnant by him, and then it goes it goes on for years, it gets more and more bonkers, more and more baffling, and it it is really fascinating, believe you me. If you like things like Sweet Bobby or Scamanda, uh, I think you will like this one. It's really good. I listened to it, I binged it. I was in the studio and I was just busy like printing loads more just because I wanted to finish the podcast. Oh, here she is. Hello, Missy. Hi Brown Brown. Here she is. Can you see her in the background? There she is. Anyway, back to the podcast. So today I'm answering Mimi's um uh I was gonna say resolution uh dilemma. So Mimi isn't there was a we had another Mimi that we had a Mimi a few weeks ago. This is a different Mimi. We're answering Mimi's dilemma, Louise's dilemma, and Callie's dilemma. Right. Buckle up, my friends. It's a good episode. Okay, so Mimi writes that she is a retired nurse, educator, and psychotherapist who has returned to her first love of making art. She says she creates digital artwork using Procreate and produces high-quality glice, glisse, I never know how to say that word, glisse prints from her designs. Although she's proud of the work she's making and she isn't discouraged by rejection, she really is she has been repeatedly told by local exhibitions that they do not accept digital artwork. And she finds this confusing and disappointing, particularly when she herself feels the work is strong. Um, so she's begun selling at farmers' markets and is finding her own path. But her question is how to move forward, build acceptance, and find a place within her local creative community. Right, so let's unpack this. So the emotional layer. So what stuck out to me the most from Mimi's email was the fact that she says that she isn't deterred. And I think that's half the battle. The fact that she acknowledges that she, well, she says that she she thinks her work is strong. She believes in her work. I think that's brilliant. So even the fact that she keeps getting rejected from these local art exhibitions, you know, she she really has a strong sense of belief and trust in her own work. Because I do think that, especially when you're starting out, getting rejections from open calls, etc., can derail artists at that, you know, at that early stage. And um, and I'm not hearing that at all. I I think what I'm hearing is that I know this work has value, but I don't seem, I don't understand why some people don't seem to see it. And that's a really different question because I think that not every rejection is a judgment of quality. I think it's sometimes a rejection of a category because you know, this local these local exhibitions may have decided that they just want traditional painting, printmaking, ceramics, um I don't know, uh sculpture. Um, and your work sounds like it falls outside their definition of what they're looking for. And that doesn't mean that it's lesser, it just means that it does it doesn't fit into their particular criterity, criteria, sorry. And I think what you're looking for is acceptance within your local community because and I think that's really important, you know. We all want to feel that where we live, you know, um, values what we value and what we do. And um, but I think sometimes communities take a while to catch up. I mean, I don't know where you live, Mimi. I think I think I think you're in the States. Um, but you know, digital art is relatively new compared to painting and drawing and and um sculpture, and adding in, I think, the current climate of anxiety around, you know, um AI and um uh AI generated imagery, I think many people are confused as to what digital art really is. And I think some organisers might hear digital art and make assumptions and also think, well, you know, because they don't know a lot about it, you know, it's automatically like, oh, well, it's I don't know, it's done on a computer, therefore it isn't um of value. I don't know. I'm just throwing some assumptions out that perhaps might get um manied. I'm sorry, I'm scribbling down. I've written so many notes here. What did I write here? I can't even read my writing. Oh, yes, yeah. I said that that must feel really frustrating when you spend hours doing what you do and you know developing your skills and making decisions and refining your work. But I think the important thing to say here is that a lack of understanding doesn't mean there's a there's um uh a lack of value because they're not the same thing, and I think practically what you can do here is be curious. So I think that rather than you know look at it from a point of of hurt and um not anger, but you know, frustration, turn it into curiosity, turn it into kind of like, well, I want to know why it is that they do not accept digital artwork. And I would say get in touch with some of the organizers, you know. It might be that they've never really considered it and they don't know what it is, and and sort of ask them in a genuinely curious way, you know, why is it that you don't accept digital artwork? And or could you help me to, and if you have got concerns, could you help me to understand your concerns? And you might find that actually they've never um uh they've never really thought about it in the past, or they've haven't, they probably haven't come into contact with people who who make digital digital work before. And and another thing that I wrote is that these rules might have been um created years and years ago, and they're you know, they're just running from the same outdated system. So I think that's what that's practically the first thing that I would do. I would go to these organizers and just sort of have a chat, have a chat. And then I think this could be, I mean, I was I was thinking about another way that you could make your work visible and try and show people what goes into it. And I would, you know, because I think often with printmaking, especially, you know, I think for for for lino cut artists, it's really important that people look at the the the process of what it is that you're doing. I mean, I've seen, you know, if I've had an open studio and I've got my carving tools out and I've shown people the actual lineos, they're like, oh my goodness, wow. I never, I never knew it was that actually, you know, and they and they they don't realise what skill goes into producing the artwork. And so perhaps what you could think about is you know, maybe having a small screen at your at the farmer's market which shows a time lapse of you, you know, you creating your artwork, or maybe just some process photographs, or just something that shows your uh audience how you make your work and what goes into it. Um, you know, kind of educate people in a way. Um, because I think if people um people don't understand, then they're less likely to invest in a way. Um and and this isn't because I think you need to justify yourself. I just think it's I think it's people are genuinely curious about how these things are made. I'm curious, you know, I've got no idea. I I think I know what Procreate is, I know it's a it's um um you know it's a design program, but other than that, I haven't got a clue. And I'm I'm somebody who, you know, I know enough about computers to get the business done on with my word, but I'm absolutely a Luddite when it comes to things like Photoshop or Illustrator. I haven't got a clue, you know. So I personally would be quite interested. Um, and also I think what's also what I wrote down is that don't concentrate just on the places that are saying no, because you know, there are countless opportunities now, I think, for digital art that didn't exist, you know, say 20 years ago. You know, you've got online um exhibitions that you could enter. There's, you know, I'm sure there's digital art communities out there, you know, there's independent galleries, there's creative festivals. I think that the farmers market just might be, you know, where where you get the information that your work is selling, and therefore there is an audience for it. You've just got to find the right place. Um so I, you know, I don't think your challenge is that you, you know, you're unsure about your work. I think it's just, you know, you're wanting to feel, you know, supported by your local community. And I think the best way to do that is to engage with them and to ask them some questions and maybe, you know, help them understand what it is that you're doing. Um, and you'll and you'll find your audience. I absolutely know you'll find your audience. So, homework meaning. Um, what if I scribble down here? Okay, I would like you to do three things. Number one, have a conversation with an exhibition organizer and and ask them to explain their policy around digital artwork. I'm almost I can almost guarantee you're gonna get some um not sure. I I don't think that they're probably gonna have an answer for you. So, you know, great. Help them, help educate them as to what goes in, what is involved with your work. Um, and then I would think, you know, create one simple way of showing your process. Maybe it's a time-lapse video or a sketchbook page with photographs of your, you know, your process. Um and then also I thought what would be a nice thing for you is to, you know, keep a logbook. And I think this is a really good um uh a really good method for any artist is to keep a little notebook of everything, of any nice things that people say to you, positive stuff, a positive response to your work goes in a little notebook. When I started off, I had a little notebook, which you know, I just recorded things. I recorded what people said about my work because when I was feeling shaky, when I was feeling a little bit unsure, I would go back to that book. I don't know where that book is now. When I moved here, it somehow got lost in the move, which is a shame because I'd like I'd like to look through it now. But keep get a notebook, get you know, get those um get those comments in a book and uh and start to build it up. I think you'll find that really rewarding. Okay, thank you for that, Mimi. Really great question, and I hope I have answered it helpfully, right? Moving on, Louise. Okay, so Louise, look at her in the background. She is just so pretty, isn't she? I mean, she's just the prettiest little dog. Adorable. Okay, so I was at a book festival. This is a bit of an aside. I was at a book festival yesterday, I gave a talk at a book festival, and um at one point the conversation, I don't know how I got on to say basically saying in the in the book festival that um I'm I I don't have children by choice and I I'm not in a relationship by choice. I said, you know, I'm not interested in having a relationship. And uh and Julia, who was interviewing me, said, Well, I think you are in a relationship, Sam, because I've I've got Marple on my lap, you know, and she was kind of like you know, asleep on me, and I was just you know stroking her, and you know, of course she's the she's the most solid relationship I've had in years. Anyway, moving on. Um let me focus. Louise. So Louise is a hand embroidery artist from South Africa who left teaching at the end of 2021 to pursue her creative practice full-time. She says that the decision has been a success. She receives regular commissions, has sold original work, and genuinely loves the work she does. She's incredibly grateful for the support of her partner and her family who have made helped make this her creative life possible. But there's a tension within this in that um the commissions that she gets now take up most of her available time, leaving very little room for the personal projects and creative exploration that originally drew her to her art. She says she misses creating work that is entirely her own and worries she may never fully step into her creativity if she's always responding to others, other people's uh respect re uh requests. Right, okay. So the first thing that struck me was when you said, Louise, that you worry that you may never fully step into your creativity because I think you are already in your creativity. I think you have stepped into your creativity because I think you've done something really brave. I think you've left your teaching, you've built a creative business, you've found clients, you know, you've sold original work and you're making a living in part from your creativity. So to me, that is somebody who has fully stepped into their creativity. And I think sometimes we become so focused on you know the next thing that we forget how far we've come. And you know, 2021 is you know five years ago now. So I I think it's time for you to really reflect and pat yourself on the back, you know, to see how far you have come. And uh and what's interesting to me is is I often hear people who uh whose income is very uh uh reliant on commissions, and that often there's a sense of resentment within within that, but I don't hear that with you. I you know, I get the sense that you really enjoy doing your commissions and you sound really grateful for them, you enjoy the work, you enjoy the clients, and um you know I think that's that is really important, but I guess alongside that gratitude, there is that feeling that part of your creative life is being neglected. Um, you know, the time for play, the time for experiments, um you know, the work that doesn't begin with somebody else's brief. And I think that's you know, that kind of longing is completely understandable. Um and I think what's what I what I'm hearing is that you there's a fear that you're gonna keep on saying yes to everybody's demands and you're just gonna be so overwhelmed that actually you you know you you may as well still be teaching because you're just doing it for other people in a sense, you know. Um but I think what's what what we need what I need to stress here is that your work, your creative work, rather than postponing it, it needs to be protected. So that's where I'm going to come to the practical layer. Because what I think here what what I think would be really helpful is for you to get really honest about the numbers here. I want you to look at your income from your commissions and get really granular with this, you know, really sit down and look at your figures, and you know, it might be that you're absolutely right, you can't afford to turn down these commissions. But I really want you to know that for certain. Because, you know, how much, you know, how much do you earn each month? How much do you need each month? And and how many commissions does that actually require? Because I think once you've got really clear with the figures, you'll then start to sense us to get a sense of freedom. You know, could you afford to take less commissions per month, maybe one less commission per month? Perhaps you could increase your prices slightly so that maybe you know um you can do less, but you're you're earning more. And and also I think what's really important is to think about this, like I said, this protection, this creating, not postponing, but protecting. So I'm gonna use myself for an example. These past few months for me have been extraordinarily busy. I have had very little time for my own creative practice. And if I'm honest, part of me has got so used to doing my coaching, traveling, you know, doing this podcast, all that kind of stuff. That yeah, my own work has been sidelined. And I had to be really sort of really honest with myself a few like last month, where I said, Sam, you could create time for your work. You're just choosing to do other things instead, you know. So over the past sort of month, I've been really clear with days I look at my schedule and I think, right, I've got my last coaching client at I don't know, half past 11, and I've got a break until four o'clock when I see other people. That is the time that you go into your blue studio and you concentrate on your work. So I am protecting that space and I am going into the studio and I'm doing that work. So I think there could be for you maybe a Thursday afternoon every week that you could get into your studio and make the work. Because I think sometimes we say that we don't have enough time when actually we do, but in a way it's easier to do other things and then moan about the fact that we don't we don't think we have enough time. Because I think there's always another job, you know. When I'm sat here and I'm in admin mode and I'm going through my emails, I'm looking at my orders, and I'm it's much easier for me just to sit here with Marple on my lap, you know. I've got I've got the radio on, it's lovely and warm. I've then got to get myself into the blue studio and then get a different hat on. It's much easier for me to stay here and do other things that actually I could technically leave and go and do some creative work in the in the blue studio. That's what I'm saying. You can make that decision, and I think that once you get once you get clarity on your actual, you know, really looking at your week with honesty, then I think you'll start to see a little bit of creative freedom for you. Um right, because I think if I waited to finish all of my admin, then I would never get into the Blue Studio. I just wouldn't. I could I could write emails, I could write newsletters, I could write do make content for Instagram. I really could, it could take up all of my time and I'd never get to my own, you know, creative stuff. Um, not saying that what all of that isn't creative. I mean, I still see my the admin, the you know, the especially the Instagram contents. That's all. Really creative, but you know, the kind of stuff where I'm getting, you know, into my Lino cuts and I'm getting into my drawings, just for me, you know. So, so you know, I'm I'm giving you some advice from my own, you know, um experience here. So I think, you know, you obviously haven't lost your creativity, and I don't think the commissions are the enemy. I think the commissions are helping you to to to sustain this creative life that you've worked so helpful hard for. Um, but I think your own work has ended up at the back of the queue. So I think rather than waiting for the perfect moment to start it, you need to look at your schedule and you need to start fitting it in there. Create that boundary. This is my time. I'm going to ring fence Tuesday afternoon or Thursday morning or whatever it is for my own work. And I think what you'll find is that you'll get so engrossed in your own work and it will become such a part of your week that very naturally it will start to grow. Your commissions hopefully will start to not reduce, well, maybe reduce, but maybe you're utilizing your time more effectively. I don't know, just some thoughts there. So, homework. I can't, I'm struggling to concentrate when I can see her just lying there. So beautiful. Um, right, homework. I would like you to spend an hour or so carefully looking through your finances and working out exactly how much you need to make each month. Exactly. Uh, you know, let's let's get really granular here, let's get really into the nitty-gritty and and look at it because I do think, and this is something I'm going to touch on with with Kali in a bit, having that knowledge is is, you know, having that certainty, that clarity, I think is power. I think it's really freeing to know exactly where you stand financially. And then I want you to work out whether you genuinely need every commission that you're taking on, and whether there's scope to reduce or maybe increase your prices slightly and go from there. And I want you to then block out a regular time in your calendar each week where you can just get on with your own work. Um, yes, I think that it's about protecting rather than postponing. That's what I get writing here. Okay, thank you for that, Louise. Great. Um, but I had a look at your uh Instagram, beautiful work, so yeah, keep on doing it. It looks great. And and you know, commissions, I think it's always easy to say, oh well, commissions aren't my own work, but of course they're your own work, you know, they are you. It's it's all you, isn't it? It's all you, it's just you know, you are then going to hand it over to somebody who's asked for it, you know, they've given you the brief and you have created it for them, so it's very different to just making the work for you. Right, moving on to Cali. Okay, so this is a very complex one, and this is one that um I hope I can answer as as thoughtfully as I can. Well, I hope I hope you know, I hope I answer all the dilemmas as thoughtfully as I can. I mean, I know Callie, and um, you know, I there's I I know where this I you know I I I've I've talked to Callie about parts of her dilemma before, and you know, I really feel for her with this one because I think it's um you know it's one that I think quite a few of you will relate to, and I think that it's one where there's so many different elements involved in in Callie's dilemma that you know we're just going to look at it. I'm going to offer some suggestions as as thoughtfully and as carefully as I can, and I'm really hoping that this will hope help hopefully give Clary Clary some Carrie some clarity. And any of you who are in a similar situation to Callie, God, becoming a tongue twister. Anyway, let's let's let's continue on. So Callie is a printmaker who has um balanced her creative practice alongside a career in secondary school teaching for more than over 25 years. Um, teaching was always a practical decision for Callie. It's provided a steady income and financial security. But she writes as an introvert, she's always found the job demanding and exhausting. And over the years, she has experimented with reducing her hours in the hope of creating more time for her for her homework. And this has led to some wonderful collaborations and wonderful opportunities, such as Kelly created the artwork cover for Hamnet, the Maggie O'Farrell um uh book, and a collaboration with anthropology. Kelly made these amazing pajamas. Um, or sorry, Kelly didn't make their pajamas, her prints were on these wonderful pyjamas. But she writes recently things have become harder. Sales of her prints have slowed down and teaching has become increasingly draining. And after briefly returning to four days a week, she's realised how burnt she feels burnt out she feels. Callie, I think, went down to three days a week a while ago, and then made the decision, I think a couple of years ago, to go to back to four days a week. And um she's really struck, she's really struggled with it. And at 50 53, living alone and renting, she worries that she may be running out of time to fully immerse herself in her creative practice. And she has discussed a sabbatical with the school, but you know, she's unsure of her financial situation. So, you know, the questions that are coming up are should I should she take a sabbatical, should she leave teaching? Um, you know, should she just take a leap and leave teaching and see what happens? You know, should she hold on for another two years and take possible early retirement? Um, you know, or or are her fears around financial security preventing her from making the work she really wants to make? So, as I said earlier, you know, it's an incredibly complex, complex dilemma, and it's touching on a lot of things here. And I think what struck me from reading your dilemma, Callie, was the amount of grief I think that sits underneath it, you know, the grief for the artist that you thought you might have become, grief for opportunities that perhaps never developed as far as you had expected, um, sort of grief for years that feel as though feel as if they've been swallowed up by a job that's demanded so much of your energy. And I think alongside that grief is fear, you know, fear about money, fear about the future, fear about getting older. And you sort of mentioned that your mum has got um dementia, and you know, and I think you know, obviously, when we have people um close to us who are uh you know suffering or are ill, and it does sort of make you evaluate your own mortality, doesn't it? And makes you really aware of your own, you know, your own time frame. Um that's a lot, a that's a lot to carry, I think. Um, you know, this kind of sense of sadness and then this sense of fear, which I think is you know really um evident in your in your email, Callie. But I think I think what the important thing to say is that I I really don't believe that that these years have been a waste at all, not for a second, because I think you know, teaching isn't something that happened instead of your life. Teaching has been part of your life, you know, it's paid your rent, it's given you independence, it's enabled you to live alone, to it's you know, it's helped you, uh it's funded your materials, it's it's enabled you to keep on making work. And I think that's you know, it's really, really important. And, you know, and while you've been teaching, you've still created these opportunities for yourself that many artists would have been, you know, thrilled to have, even though you've been teaching. Um, you know, the the the Hamlet that hat that the Hamlet cover is what I wrote here, the Hamlet cover and the anthropology collaboration didn't happen despite they teach despite your teaching, they happened during that period of your life. And you know, I think it's interesting, isn't it, to sort of question your question, you know, would things have looked differently if you'd left teaching 20 years ago? Perhaps. Perhaps. But they might not, you know, they might not. Would they have definitely been better? We just don't know. So I think one of, I often think that one of the most painful traps we can fall into is comparing our actual life with an imagined version of the life that we possibly could have had, you know, because I think the imaginary version always wins. It will always, it will always trump the the actual reality of our lives. You know, the imagined version becomes wildly successful, you know, um we never have any financial worries in our imaginary life, but but real life is much, much messier than that, isn't it? You know, um, I think it sounds to me as if you spent a lifetime of being responsible. And you know, I don't think you lack courage, Callie, at all. I just think you know, circumstances have led you to this point. And I think, you know, obviously now as you're you know getting older, I mean in 53 is a is a wonderful age to be. I mean, I'm only two years behind you. Um, and and I think now it's it's a great time to feel you know sort of ready to think about the next step. So I I I really want to, you know, what I want to do is celebrate those years that you've been teaching and and not and I want you to reframe them as you know a very valuable time in your life, and it has that has given you many things. And even I know that you know standing up in a group of teen in front of a group of teenagers is really, really hard work, but it has given you so many skills that you probably are unaware of. You know, I gave this talk yesterday um at this book festival, and I kind of I got in the car afterwards and I thought, God, I find that really easy now. I find it really easy to get up in front of a group of people and just talk. And I remember really clearly my first ever teaching, um, I was when I did my PGCE, I remember peeking into a classroom where one of my friends was teaching at the Brit School, and I remember looking at her thinking, oh my God, how can she get up in front of all those teenagers and speak in front of them? I mean, I was absolutely in awe of her, you know. But the next month I had to do it. And I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified. But sitting in that car yesterday, I look back to that time and I thought, I can do that because of my years of teaching. I can do that because I tell you what, standing sort of sitting and talking to a group of adults who are receptive and uh, you know, warm and are there because they want to speak, they want to listen to you, is much less intimidating than standing in front of a class of, I don't know, 20 grumpy teenagers who look like they would much rather be doing anything but it be in your class. So I, you know, I really want to, you know, celebrate, you know, what it's taken to to get to where you are now. I really want to say, you know, that you've got so many skills that you are absolutely unaware of and will serve you in this next chapter of your life. Right, so practical layers. You know, I I don't think you need to make a dramatic decision, and I think if you did, that would probably be the wrong decision. I think you're carrying a lot of uncertainty at the moment, and I think uncertainty has a habit of making everything look frightening. Um I think what's happening, okay. There's a lot of uncertainty on your email. There's a lot of kind of can I afford to retire in two years? Can I afford to take a sabbatical? How long will my savings last? How much income do I need each month? So these are financial questions. And I'm going to suggest the same thing, but I'm going to take it one step further than what I suggested for Alison. I think what would be really helpful for you is to go and see somebody who can help you with your finances. So I know that a financial advisor might be, you know, it might be a big outlet for, you know, I don't know how much of a session with a financial advisor would be or a few sessions, but you know, I do think that would be really helpful to sit down with somebody and show them if you're an accountant or just somebody who you can look at with your finances, get it all out there and just see the reality of what we're looking at here. What are we dealing with? Because I think you can then make your decisions based on facts rather than fear. I think facts are less, much less uh frightening than uncertainty. Um, and you know, what I what I've been thinking about and what I've I've been doing with one of my coaching creators, Sue, um, she's planning to retire next year or or at the end of next year. And what we've been doing for the past year and a bit is creating a runway for Sue. So, you know, she knows she's going to retire. Her printmaking practice when she first came to see me was a fledgling printmaking practice. But what we've been doing over the past couple of years is gradually building that up, you know. So she's been making work, she's been sharing it on Instagram, she's been applying for exhibitions, she's been applying for open calls, you know, she's gradually really building her business up so that when she decides to leave teaching or when she retires, it's already really in a really healthy space for her to then leave, and then she can continue to her business continue to can continue to evolve. So, what we've been doing is what I like to think about as a runway, because I think some people take leaps, some people build runways, and I think a runway would be a really good practical option for Yulia Cali, because you know, you could look at the next two years before you choose to take early retirement as a place to really build your work, you know, really work on um, you know, building your visibility, building your opportunities, building your confidence, um, and building a clearer understanding of your finances and make make a plan for what retirement might actually look like. Um, because I think if I hold on for two years and hope for the best is a very different um place to be than if I hold on, if I if I'm going to spend the next year, next two years in my teaching job, then I'm actively going to prepare for the next chapter. So, you know, I I I would say go and see a financial advisor. You might be pleasantly surprised, you know, you might be in a situation to maybe perhaps take that sabbatical, you know, or or it might be that, yeah, financially that isn't possible, and you do, you know, you do choose to spend the next two years knowing that you are going to be leaving, but what you're doing is building that runway. Um, and also, you know, you mentioned that you, you know, look at other people and you know, you the other artists who seem to spend every waking minute, you know, making work, and you know that that's not the reality, but it's Instagram has such a way, doesn't it, of creating this kind of sort of I can't concentrate with you looking at me like that. It's not tea time yet, Marple. This this podcast episode is going on for a long time. Um, uh, what we're talking about, yes, Instagram. We only see the highlight reel, don't we? You know, I mean, like I said earlier, I'm really honest with you, I've hardly spent any time making my own work recently. You know, I've had so much going on and I haven't prioritised it. Simple as that. So I think you know, try not to look at everybody else because what you're seeing is a bit of this, a bit of this, and a bit of this, and you're kind of building this this this version this vision that doesn't exist of this artist who's got it all sorted out, you know. And that's certainly not me. That's certainly not me. That's certainly not me. Anyway, so I think let's write here the summary. I just think I've wrote here, I don't think the choice is between being brave and being fearful. I think that your fear around money isn't irrational. It's not irrational. I think it you know it comes from you know a long history of not having enough or not feeling like you have enough. And I think um you don't ignore these fears, just just get more information, seek advice, gather, gather your facts, understand your options, build a runway, and then make decisions from a place of knowledge rather than uncertainty. Um I sort of feel like you're not standing on a how can I put this? I feel like you're not standing on a cliff ready to jump. You're kind of standing on a in a space where you're beginning to build a bridge. You're looking at a place, you're looking at a space where the bridge could be, but you haven't built it yet, if that makes sense. I'm really good at these little analogies. Anyway, homework, right, Callie. Arrange a meeting with somebody who knows stuff about finance. Now, that could be a financial advisor, it could be an accountant if you've got one. Gather concrete information about what retirement sabbatical or a reduced, you know, reduced hours at work would look like. You know, look at look at look at your true minimum living costs, not your ideal outcome. You know, what is it that you could exist on independently and safely, and then create a two-year runway plan, you know, instead of thinking I just need to survive for two years, think about what I can do actively with my printmaking business that will help me for when I do leave teaching, you know, build that runway. Um, and I also I think what would be really helpful for you, because I think that that there is this sort of fear that your your years teaching have been not wasted, but there does a real sense of regret with them. I think it would be really helpful for you to make a list of things that you've got from teaching, that things that you maybe haven't even considered, you know. I think that could be really helpful for you. Um, and then I think just finally just spend some time thinking about what you would like your life to look like after teaching. Not you know, not not what you're wanting to escape from, but what you're moving towards. Because I think they're two different things, you know. Um, and think about things that are great in your life at the moment, you know. You're you're an amazing artist, Callie, with with a with a superhuman animal touch. I mean, Callie's very similar to my mum, and I'll always say this. Callie's always got stray cats that she's you know that are coming to her door, or foxes, or you know, at the moment. And she's like my mum, you know. My mum's feeding two ducks at the moment called Jack and Jill. You know, it's like you you've got a magic about you, Callie, that the animals gravitate towards. So um, yeah, I think that's very special. So I think this is about finding what your next stage of it's about understanding what what your next stage looks like and moving forward with clarity and and vision really, rather than uncertainty and a muddiness about it, you know. Get the facts, move with the facts, start building that runway, and then that can lead to the bridge. I'm gonna end it there. Oh, she's starving. He's starving, she's starving. Right, I'd best go and feed my poor starving dog. Um, this has gone on for a long time, so thanks for spending your time with me, guys. Do do what you need to do. Love, like, um, subscribe to this podcast, tell your friends about it. Let's keep it going. Sending lots of love, and uh, I'll see you very soon. All right, let's stop recording. Stop recording.