Episode 25: Creative Chat with Sarah Jane Moon | Portraiture, Teaching & Creativity

In this episode of The Creative Couch, I sit down with the wonderful artist and portrait painter Sarah Jane Moon for a relaxed and thoughtful conversation about creativity, portraiture and building a life as an artist.

Originally from Wellington, New Zealand, Sarah Jane shares the story of how she moved to the UK, found her way into painting without a traditional Fine Art degree, and gradually established herself as one of today's leading contemporary portrait painters. Along the way, we talk about the realities of balancing a professional painting practice with teaching, the importance of finding your creative community, and how a creative career is often built through curiosity, persistence and a willingness to keep learning.

We also discuss what portraiture can reveal about the people we paint, how teaching can both support and challenge your own creative practice, and why there is no single route into becoming a successful artist.

In this episode, we explore:

• Sarah Jane's journey from New Zealand to London
• Finding your way into painting without a Fine Art degree
• Building a creative career one step at a time
• Balancing teaching with your own artistic practice
• The importance of creative community and surrounding yourself with other artists
• Portraiture, observation and painting people with honesty and sensitivity
• How an artist's practice naturally evolves over time
• The realities of making a sustainable living as a professional artist

Whether you're just beginning your creative journey or have been making work for years, this conversation is full of thoughtful reflections on creativity, artistic growth and what it really means to build a life around making art.

You can find Sarah Jane on Instagram at:

@sarah_jane_moon

You can also find her work at:

www.sarahjanemoon.com

If you'd like to submit a creative dilemma for a future episode, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at:

thecreativecouchpod@gmail.com

If you're feeling stuck in your own creative practice and would like support, you can find out more about my creative coaching, workshops and artwork at:

www.sammarshallart.com

You can also find me on Instagram at:

@sammarshallart

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Creative Couch. I'm Sam Marshall, artist and creative coach. This is a podcast about creativity, confidence, and living a creative life. Hello and welcome to the Creative Couch. We are here on this 1st of April, the day after my birthday. Marple's got a new collar. Those of you who are on YouTube, you can see this beautiful dusky pink collar that I bought for her yesterday, and it matches my jumper quite nicely. So I'm recording this before I go away yet again. This time I am going to France. I'm teaching drawing and printmaking for a week in uh the base of the Pyrenees. Um, I'm teaching for a wonderful place called Clos Mirabelle. So do follow along with me on my stories. Um, I'll be there by the time this comes out. So uh yeah, I'll be trying to share as much as I can on my stories. Um I'm looking forward to it. It's gonna be a lovely week away and get an opportunity to meet new people, um, teach in a new place. And this time I'm teaching, we're we're doing a week of half of it's gonna be sketching outside in the landscape, and then half of it will be back in the studio translating those drawings into liner cuts and dry points. So very exciting. So, again, thank you to everybody who has liked and commented and sent in a dilemma. I've had a batch of new dilemmas this week, which has been absolutely wonderful. So, thank you again to everybody who sent them in. And uh yeah, so today we are answering Liz. With Liz, we've got another Liz, it's not the same Liz as last time. We've got Liz, we've got Ziva, and we've got Lucy. Uh so Ziva is somebody who's found me actually on YouTube, which was quite exciting, so not Instagram. So Ziva's new to um the Sam Marshall experience. Lucky Ziva. Um, and uh I look forward to answering Ziva's thoughtful uh dilemma. But first of all, we're going to start with Liz. So just to refresh those of you, just to refresh your memory, if you've been listening for a while but you might have forgotten. Those of you who are new, welcome, welcome to the podcast. How I do this is every week I share um uh a dilemma that uh somebody sent in, a creative dilemma, and I unpack it gently, I summarize the dilemma, I look at it from an emotional point of view, a practical point of view, and now that that gently leads into homework. So um that's the format, that's how it works. I normally ramble on for about half an hour, but we you know, you never know. I've got a few coming up that which are going to be smaller because they're more practical dilemmas that I can answer quite quickly. So, you know, and that's fine as well. If you want to send me a practical dilemma in, I'll try and answer that for you. Anyway, um let's crack on with Liz's dilemma for a start. So um, Liz writes that she has been sharing her printmaking on Instagram for a while, but more recently she's moved into embroidery and stitch journaling, which sounds quite exciting. And this new direction has actually uh attracted far more attention online and she's got a growing audience that are really engaging with this new way of working. However, she has discovered that some of her pieces have been shared on Pinterest without permission. Some are some are links back to her Instagram, but her Instagram account, but others are cropped screenshots with no credits at all. She feels both flattered and uneasy, and she said that she understands that Pinterest is often used for inspiration, but as the copyright owner, she's not comfortable being work uh she's not comfortable with the work being shared in this in this way. So, in summary, I think her dilemma is this: do you ignore it and accept it as part of being visible online, or do you step in and say something? So very interesting dilemma, and it's something that I think you know a few of us creatives have have had in the past. I remember when my Lino Cut book came out, suddenly there was a copy on Amazon that was, I don't know, sort of reproduced. It was very weird, um, and Bloomsbury stepped in and dealt with it, but it was a bit of a weird one for me. And I've I've heard other creatives recently, actually, um, one of my uh fellow uh sort of printmaking uh artist friends, uh Georgina, Georgina Doodles, and she does these beautiful um bird drawings and uh uh paintings, like watercolour paintings, and uh she's had quite a lot of uh AI kind of um she's had a bit of a tussle with AI recently. So it's something that as creatives I think we're very aware of images being stolen and used and repurposed. But I think what's happening here at the same time for Liz is there's two things here. Um, because you know her work is personal, and these stitch, these stitch pieces are a new sort of arena for her, and you know, she's she's made them to um they're not just content, they're just not just made to be sold or or or promoted. They're it they feel like they're expressions of something more quieter and more intimate, something that Liz is just you know kind of exploring. And and when they're lifted and cropped and placed without context, that can feel like a real sort of invasion of privacy and a real loss of control. But I think there's a second lay here, and that's this slightly confusing one, is that this also feels like validation. You know, the fact that somebody has kind of gone on to your Instagram or gone onto your website and stolen these images in a way, or repurposed them, is kind of flattering. It's like, you know, well, somebody likes what I'm doing and they're putting it out, they're sharing it. And I think that, you know, it is okay to feel sort of both things at once, and I think you are feeling both things at once. You know, it's that I am being seen, however, I'm not comfortable and I'm not respected with how how I'm being seen in this way. Um, and I think the tension is at the real heart of this of this dilemma. Um, but I think the important thing here is that you are allowed visibility and you are allowed boundaries. Those things, those two things can coexist at the same time. Um, you don't have to accept misuse because your work is being appreciated. And I think that's the emotional, that's the undercurrent of the emotional thing that's going on here. Um, but if we move into the practical layer here, I think there's there's there's not one correct response here. I I think it depends on you, Liz. It depends on how you feel. Um, but I think there's a few clear options, and I've kind of listed them, and these are based on your own tolerance and your own energy. The first one is do nothing, just kind of accept that this is part of being online and let it go. Um, and this is a valid choice, absolutely, but it has to feel intentional. You have to make that conscious decision that you are choosing to do this, otherwise, it's going to eat away at you and it's going to cause resentment. So I think if it's going to bother you quietly, it's not the right choice. The second choice is to report this to Instagram. I'm sorry, to Pinterest. Um, Pinterest does have a copyright uh reporting process and you can request removal. I've dug a bit of, I did a little bit of research into this, and this is the kind of the most directive way to take control with sort of entering into any personal kind of confrontation. I don't know, I don't really use Pinterest, but I and I so I don't know how effective that would be. But I but from the research that I've done, it is something that is offered. So that could be an avenue that you explore. The third option is you send a message to the person who is reposting or repurposing your work saying, you know, um, I've noticed that you shared my work on Pinterest, I'm really glad it resonates with you. Um, but I'd appreciate it if you could, you know, credit my images or remove the images. Thank you so much. You know, keep it keep it polite, you know, you don't need to kind of go in with the guns blazing. And I don't think you will, because given the tone of your email, I think you know, you're you're tentatively approaching this. But I think there's you know, no escalation, no accusation, just clarity. You know, that's another option. And then you could also, the fourth option is sort of take back control of the narrative here. So you could decide that, you know, I have seen people on Instagram whoever they whenever they post something, they put a little watermark or they do a little sort of signature at the bottom, which means that everything you post online has that uh, you know, declaration that it's yours. So that is something that you could do. I mean, it it it I'm not I mean, I don't do that, but uh so I don't know how much time that would involve. But that is another option, you know. You sort of um you ensure that if your work travels, it leads back to you. So that is another option, and you could do a mix of all those different options, but I kind of wrote them out clearly because I thought that that would be helpful to um to hear them in that way. So I think you need to decide your boundary with this, Liz. You need to sort of say, you know, I it might be helpful to write down, I often write down sentences that that help me kind of clarify things in my head. So I I kind of gave you a couple of options here. You know, I am comfortable with my work being shared if dot dot dot, or I am not comfortable if dot dot dot. So I think once you kind of have those boundaries written down so that you know where you are feel what what you are feeling and how you want to now go about doing that with those boundaries in place, I think you will feel a little bit more settled and a little bit more in control. And then the second homework I'm going to give you is just choose one of those options, you know, choose one of those options or a mix of a couple of them, but just you know, report one image, message that person or consciously decide to leave it, you know, choose one or maybe just kind of I don't know, you I feel like those are a little bit pick and mix. You can do a little bit of kind of adding and removing with those, but you know, take one action, even if it is a mix between the two, one the option two or an option four. Make one decision, do it now, so that you feel you're not stuck, you're not staying stuck in this indecisive space, where which I feel like that that you know the whole dilemma was kind of um sort of um it had a flavor of that. And then future-proof your work, you know, like I say, add a watermark, um, add a small visible handle underneath. Um and I think that will protect your connection to the work. So but thanks for that, Liz. Interesting dilemma to to um to dissect, and I think it will, you know, I think quite a few of us listening will have will have experienced something like that, even if it's not online, you know, it could be, you know, it could well I mean I say even if it's not online, it's most probably going to be online these days, isn't it? It's not like somebody's gonna come into your studio and steal your work and then say that it's theirs. I mean, I I think that's pretty rare. Much easier to take things online, isn't it? Anyway, so Ziva wrote into me, having found me on um on YouTube, uh, which was very exciting, so that she's enjoyed my Japan and my Spain videos, which was lovely. Um I am still editing the the Japan ones, so um bear with me on that. Um so Ziva wrote that she's a landscape architect who discovered ceramics after travelling through Japan. And the way she described how she discovered ceramics was in a very loose and unstructured way. It sort of evolved again organically. And this sounds like the experience has shaped her creative path and continues to influence her work today. I'm laughing because Marple is snoring so loudly. You think the microphone's picking up on you, Marple? Sorry if you think that the audio is crackling, it's not, it's my small brown dog on my lap. Um so, and she's kind of turning to me because she knows that I travel a lot and she sees travel as a creative tool, like I do. And she's facing a dilemma here. She's sort of saying to me, she's asking me, do you plan your trip with intention and structure, perhaps around a theme or focus, or do you leave space for spontaneity and let the journey guide you creatively? And she's kind of asking me what leads to the most meaningful creative experience. And I think what uh Zina Ziva is asking here is for I I felt like she was asking me for permission to well, not permission necessarily, but to give her a list of rights and wrongs. And because I think underneath all of this there is a quiet fear of getting it wrong. You know, if I plan too much, will I miss the magic? Or if I don't plan enough, do I waste the opportunity? And I think it's it's almost about your identity as a creative person here. Um, because I think what's happened is that you've had this experience in Japan whereby you discovered ceramics in a really organic way. And you don't go into detail about that, and I'm sort of curious to know more about how this kind of evolved. But it sounds like it was, you know, you didn't force it, these ceramics just kind of, you know, maybe it is that you visited you were in a region and and you visited some Potter studio, and I don't know, or maybe there was I I don't know, but how it but it sounds like it wasn't forced. It sounds like you didn't go to Japan with the intention of discovering ceramics, and I think that that is that's become part of the story. So it in a way, there's an there's there's a there's a pull to honor that way of working, you know, to kind of turn up and see what unfolds. Um but I think that it wasn't to do with the lack of structure there, I think it was to do with an your open-mindedness and your ability to notice what happened in that trip. I think that's two different things. It wasn't like you were just like, oh, whatever. You had that mindset whereby you were open and receptive to seeing what happened in front of you. So I think your creativity, your creativity didn't come with an absence of a plan, it became it came with your curiosity and your willingness to follow something that followed your eye, if if that makes sense. So I feel that um you don't have to recreate those same same conditions in order to make something meaningful to happen again. I just think you need to trust yourself a bit more. So you asked me directly how I do this, and and I'm gonna the the practical layers that I'm gonna unpick here are kind of woven in my own experience and what I do. So with my trips, I always have a light structure. I'm not I go away to draw, I don't necessarily go away to tick off all the things that lots of other people tell me to do. So I always have a light structure, but it's not rigid. Um, so I always have a few key places that I want to visit, and there's always within my itinerary every day, there's always two things that I want to do. Now that's either draw in a cafe that I've got earmarked, or go and visit somewhere that I can draw, you know, it or visit a neighbourhood, visit an art gallery. There's always a couple of things within my day that I want to do, and like I say, they are personal to me, they're the things that make me excited, but they're always involved around drawing for me. Um so I have a I have a loose structure, but also within that, there's deliberate wandering time, there's deliberate time to just explore, to just see what takes my eye. You know, I'm somebody who you know just likes to walk, just likes to walk and look. And within that, then that allows me to, you know, see what it is I want to draw. I very rarely go to a place, think I want to draw that. I very rarely think that. Because I probably will get there and think, actually, you know what, I don't want to draw that. The drawing conditions aren't ideal, it's too sunny, it's too bright, um, it's too rainy, whatever. So I do allow that built-in wandering time. And also within this, I think you have to take in the fact that you have to factor in your energy as well. Because what's happening here is that sometimes the day just doesn't feel right, you know. Sometimes you're feeling a bit under the weather, you're tired. So I think it's almost about following your energy, not the obligation. So I guess what I'm saying with all of this is I think it needs to be a bit of a mixture of the two. So, I mean, for me, I I look at my trips whereby I my trips are designed sort of 60-40. So there's I would say that sort of 60% of it is lightly planned and 40% of it is completely open. I always know where I'm gonna stay. I love knowing where I'm gonna stay, that brings a lot of joy for me. I I love researching hotels and you know, in Japan, different Ryokans, all that kind of stuff, but it's light, it's not tight. Um, and you know, I mean, for me, I know I'm always gonna be drawing in my sketchbook. So, and I know that there's certain things that I have my own thread, I know the things that interest me. But if you're starting out and you are a little bit unsure and you need something to guide you, then you could choose a gentle lens for your thread, you know, for your trip. Sorry, it could be, you know, I'm gonna be looking at uh repetition or texture or colour, you know, or or or people, you know, you could say to yourself, I mean, actually, my neighbour Claire, when she went to Japan, you know, she on her Instagram feed, all of her stories were of the potholes, and not the potholes, sorry, the manhole covers in Japan because they're so beautifully decorated. So, you know, that was her focus when she went to Japan. So you if you want to, you could have a sort of a light theme that's kind of ticking away in the background, but let it guide you rather than it being, you know, what you must do. Oh my god, am I recording this? I am recording. I suddenly have these moments in the halfway through when I'm really enjoying it and thinking, oh, you know, this is great. And then I think, oh no, I'm not recording. I am recording. Anyway, um, and I always have a daily check-in. So I always ask myself today, how am I feeling? What is it that I want to do? Do I want to do what I've planned? If I don't, I change my plan, you know. Um, and I often I think it's worth asking yourself, do you want do you want structure or do you want space today? You know, asking yourself those questions. What do I feel curious about? Do I want structure or space? You know, all of those things. So I think in essence, what I'm saying here is that's how I do it. That might be a way for you moving forward. Because I don't think just having a 100% loose, let's just see what happens in the day is going to help. I think actually having a little bit of structure, but then having a little bit of flexibility is the key. I hope that helped. Zina. Ziva. Sorry, I keep calling you Zina, Ziva, Ziva. Uh right, okay, moving on. Third and final one. Uh Lucy. So this one is this one's a tricky one. This one is is is you know, well, they're all they're all tricky. They're all tricky, but this one, you know, is something where you know Lucy's email was, you know, I I got a lot of sadness behind this and a lot of a real feeling of being stuck and not knowing where to go. So this is, you know, um one that I probably gonna talk a little bit more long, uh talk a little longer on, um, because I feel like there's there's so much there that we need to kind of work on. So Lucy wrote that she's a mixed media artist who once had a small close-knit community on Instagram that felt really personal and connected. And it's something she said that she's worked for years on. She built her she'd built her profile up slowly and steadily. Um, and then she started to work on a slightly different uh technique. And I it she I don't know any more than this. Lucy kept it quite broad, so I don't know, but she said that she started to work on a different style of work that went viral, and then everything changed. She said her following grew rapidly to I think she said 4,000 followers to over three zero zero zero zero zero. 300,000? That's right. Um, and that growth has come at a cost. She said that the work that brought in the people is now what performs best and what people expect. And she's also mentioned she's had a lot of brand interest, um uh a lot of uh interest in kind of working with other people. Um but she said the problem is she's already bored of the work that brought her in all of this attention. She doesn't feel that it's the heart of her practice, and yet when she shares her other work, her earlier work, the engagement drops and she finds herself hesitating in second. Guessing. So what at one place she she wrote that what at the same time, the intimacy that she writes about the intimacy that she loved has now been replaced by something much bigger and less personal, and she's feeling really lost with this. Um, so I think in summary, her dilemma is this: how do you move on from something that brought you success, especially when it might mean losing some of what you've gained? I think that's the essence of this, really, here, isn't it? You know, um, I think underneath all of this, I think what I read in Lucy's dilemma was just a real sense of exhaustion and a real sense of, I really don't know what to do here. And I think it's almost like you're trying to hold something in place that no longer feels true to you. You know, if the work that you that that that got you all the attention that went viral doesn't feel like it's you, it's very, very hard to turn up and keep sort of you know shouting about it if you don't feel that it's you're being authentic. And I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because you know, you you sort of found yourself in a position that that so many creative people want, you know, that that that large audience, that strong engagement and attention from other people, you know, like brands, etc. Um, I mean it's something that I don't understand because I don't I've never been approached by a brand, so I don't know quite what it were, what what what happens within that. But I'm guessing if you do a work with a brand, you have to say it's a paid sponsorship or something like that. I mean, I've got a big platform, not well, nowhere near like that. Um, but in some respects with Instagram, I'm still quite naive, you know. So I I don't, but anyway, you you mentioned the brands quite a bit. So it just feels like instead of it being something that's really freeing and really exciting, it's become something that you feel like you have to maintain. And I think what's happened is something that felt like play has become pressure, and and underneath it all is this feeling that if you step away from this, what if everything falls apart? And you know, it's so interesting, isn't it? It's like a gilded sword or a gilded what's the why I don't know what that analogy is. Let's not go there. I'm not very good with analogies, I always get them wrong, but it it's like a poison chalice, is that right? You know, you've got what so many people aspire to, but you feel really trapped. And I think what I'm gonna say here is something that I I think I need to say this gently but honestly if you stop showing the work that got you all those followers, then some of those followers that came for you for that might drop away, and some of them will lose interest and your numbers might dip, you know, and that's the reality. But that's not a failure, that's a sorting, isn't it? That's you know, if you don't want to keep turning up and showing the work that went viral, then you've got there has got to be that that acceptance that actually your audience will drop again and actually it's a filtering system because you don't want to be, you know, doing the work that that got you the viral uh attention. You know, think about it as actually um, you know, uh, you know, a detox or a what's the word? Uh what have I been doing? Decluttering. It's a bit like decluttering, getting stuff, getting rid of the stuff that you don't want, getting rid of those followers who came for you for something which actually you don't feel uh in a good space now about um performing or or producing. Because I think what's happened is now that your audience is slightly misaligned with your practice, really, isn't it? Um isn't it? Isn't it? Isn't it? Oh dear, I've got lost on the analogies, but I think that that's where the tension is, isn't it? It's it's that the audience you've got uh have come to you for something, you don't feel comfortable with that anymore, and so it feels misaligned. And I think the thing that is here, Lucy, you don't have to keep everybody happy, it's about allowing the right people to stay and and being comfortable with that, and and I think all of this has become a constraint to you, and I think there has to be acceptance here that actually the numbers will dip and you have to move on with that. And I think the problem is that when you know you you get a big chunk of followers like that, suddenly you become more exposed, you become more, you know. But it's a high, you know, it must be must have been like suddenly you saw those numbers tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, and it's like wow, you know, and and and now you're dealing with the aftermath of that, and that's really hard. So I think I really hear you on this. I can really see how difficult it needs. Um, but I want to offer something from my perspective here as well, in that, you know, when and I've said this to quite a few of my creatives before, and I I'm you know, share it here now. When the Lino Cut book came out, I suddenly became known as the person who does lino cuts. Now that's fine, but lino cut has always only ever been a small part of what I do. A small part, you know. I say a small part. It's probably you know, lino cut takes up a good chunk of what I do, but it's not everything that I do. I don't just do lino cut. Now, when the book came out, I could have ridden that bandwagon and I could have just done all line out cut, I could have gone for it and I could have just stuck with that. However, I intentionally chose when the book came out to keep promoting the book, but also to make sure that I I'd given myself that space to grow my own practice, you know, and and I hadn't shared much of my drawing before that, I hadn't shared many of my etchings. So I started, you know, instead of I knew that my audience wanted my lino cuts, but I had to fight against that. I had to say, in order for me to grow, in order for me to expand, I have to share the other part of my practice. And I absolutely saw that. I saw a drop in numbers, I saw people that, you know, well, I came here for the lino cuts. I'm like, oh sorry. And it was uncomfortable, I have to say, you know, I could have just my my platform could have skyrocketed. However, I chose that I didn't want that, and I wanted my platform to be a space where I'm allowed to grow, and I think that's important, isn't it? It's about it, it's about really understanding and being clear about your intentions and your desires for your social media platform and not letting it become a trap, which I think it has become here for you, Lucy. Right, so the practical layer, I think what you what you have to decide here is what you're now, what you're no longer willing to sustain. You know, how often do you want to kind of make that viral sort of stuff? You know, do you want it to be central, occasional, or something you move away from entirely? There has to be a decision here, I think. And I think it's about reclaiming authorship of your audience. Some scribbled notes here. What did I say here? All right, yes. So let the numbers move. So we're talking again about the numbers, you know, try and move away from focusing on the numbers. If the engagement drops, just let it just think about it as a transitory period. I often talk to my creatives about, you know, we're show we're slowly turning the ship, really slowly, you know, we're going on a different, but it takes time. So it's almost like, like I say, with that lino cut and my whole thing about sketch and you know, drawing and and etching, you know, I knew that I was turning the boat, you know, and now people think about me as somebody who sketches as well as lino cut, but it took three years for that to happen. It's a long time of gradually re-educating my audience. And obviously losing people, that's fine. You know, I've had some people tell me that they don't like my drawings. Fine, that's fine. You don't have to, well, don't, you know, either don't follow me, or you know, occasionally when I post something about my Lino cuts, they're gonna be happy. But it is just sticking with it and knowing that you know, having your intention and and don't scramble then if you see the engagement drop off, don't then scramble to do something viral so that you get that hit like okay, it's okay again now, because that you're gonna be in the same position again. So I think what's happened here again is that you I think you probably got hooked into the like what will what will work, what's worked in the past. So you've got into this habit of saying, well, what will perform well, therefore I'm gonna do that again, I'm gonna do that again, I'm gonna do that again. So I think you need to move away from that into what feels good for me, what feels most truthful for me now, what feels most truthful for me. And so for me at the moment, because I spend most of my time when I'm here in Holly Tree Cottage, I spend most of my time coaching, I spent most of my talking about creativity. For me at the moment, most of my Instagram posts are around the coaching side of things, you know, thinking about you know, obstacles, creative obstacles. A lot of my content now is based on that because that's what feels most truthful to me, because that's where my headspace is. You know, I'm not going to be posting loads about all the lino cuts or the etchings I'm doing because I'm not doing that at the moment necessarily. I post where I am at the moment. Um, and I think also the the fourth thing I I wrote down is you can also use, you can also be honest with your followers. You know, you can also be honest with your followers. I've been really honest with all my, you know, behind the scenes with my stories. I'm always really open and honest with my followers. I am on my grid as well, but it's easier for me to communicate with my followers on my stories because you know, those people who come to me every day and we have a little bit of a dialogue, I have that immediate connection with them. And you you could, if you chose to, be really honest and say, look, you know, I know a lot of you found me from XYZ, from whatever it was that went viral, but my practice is wider than that, and I'm starting to share more of it. You know, I look forward to I look forward to you guys coming along with me, you know. So making it is like, well, you know, if you don't like that, then you can sort off. Making it part of like, well, I look forward to that. Come along with me, making it um, you know, sort of celebrating the fact that you're you that you're doing this, making them want to feel part of it. And that helps the real the right people lean in, and then it gives the others permission to step away if they want to, you know, if they were only here for the viral thing. I'm really curious to to know what this is. Um, okay, and I think the important thing here is you decide what's best for you in the long run. Think about it in the long run. You know, in a year now, do you still want to be doing the stuff that makes that's gone viral just to keep the numbers up, just so that you can show, you know, just because just because you can you can have that quick fix of validation, you know, look you look at your page, all those, all those followers, because you can guarantee that that all those followers, probably, you know, three hundred three hundred thousand followers, a very, very small fragment of those people are going to be active followers who are engaged with you, who are really genuinely behind you. And I can guarantee that those ones have then been there from the day dot. And I think if you do keep a small part of the um the viral work, you choose it as a conscious decision, not an obligation, because I think that'll make you feel like you're more in control of your platform again. All right, so homework been going on for a long time. Okay, um, I would say plan a gentle transition here. So I would say over the next 10 posts or reels or whatever carousels, you do maybe two that's rooted in the viral work, six that's rooted in your real practice now, what's going on now, and then two or one or one or two that explain that bridge to what's happening. Okay, so you keep it, you know, you keep that balance up and you keep doing that, you keep repeating that, you keep repeating that, and then gently maybe the viral stuff will go to you know, once every 10 posts, and you just edge it out, you know. And I think keep asking yourself, you know, do did did with the posts, you know, did this feel like me? Do I feel like I'm being honest here? Did I enjoy making this and sharing it? Because that will matter more than the numbers at this point, and then you know, reconnect reconnect with your with your you know, your your OG followers, you know, re-reconnect with them because they're still probably there, but they're probably feeling, you know, I'm assuming that you know, once something goes massive like that, you lose the connection to the people that you had before. I know for me, as my platform, I mean my platform has grown steadily but surely over the years. I've never had a viral moment where I've suddenly gone woof. I mean, I've had times where posts and things have done really well and I've noticed a real influx in my numbers, but I've never felt out of control with them. Um, which reading this makes me reading your dilemma makes me feel quite grateful for that. But you've absolutely got control here, Lucy. It's just a matter of taking a deep breath, preparing for those uncomfortable feelings, and deciding how you want to move this forward. I hope that's helpful. All right, my lovely friends. Well, we're gonna head off now. I'm gonna go and have a bit of spot of lunch before I start packing for France. I haven't even thought about it to be honest. Um yeah, so I will post this while I'm in France and then I'll see you in a week. As always, do send in your creative dilemmas to the creative couchpod at gmail.com. And over the next few months, I'll also be having some creative conversations as well. So I will be um asking guests to come on or be having creative chats. So it's not this podcast isn't just gonna be about dilemmas, it will be about um dialogues with other creatives. It's just at the moment I wanted to set this up as it is at the moment, and then we're gonna get into um to more creative conversations in the future. All right, guys, listen, thanks for being here. I don't know why I did that. These seems to feel weird. Anyway, let's go and have some lunch. I'm running out of steam. I'll see you guys next week.