A Conversation on Coping with the Loss of a Child | Episode 5

In this deeply moving episode of the SB Life Institute Podcast, host Safraz Bacchus is joined by pediatric chaplain Mark Daniels for a compassionate and honest conversation about one of life’s most painful realities—the loss of a child.

Drawing from years of experience in hospital chaplaincy, Mark shares powerful insights on grief, spiritual care, and the importance of presence over words. Together, they explore how families navigate unimaginable loss, how faith can be shaken yet sustained, and how communities can support those who are grieving.

This episode offers guidance, empathy, and hope for anyone facing loss or supporting someone through it. It is a reminder that even in the darkest moments, compassion and human connection can bring light.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Greetings and peace and love be with you all, and welcome to another uh episode of our podcast, FB Life Institute Podcast. And today um I have a very special guest with me, but before I do that, allow me to share with you that I'm your host, uh Stafforas Baptist. I'm a community leader, uh certified life coach and chaplain, and also a global peace ambassador. Our platform is a very safe and compassionate space where we engage in meaningful dialogue about emotional well-being, uh spiritual resilience, and also real-life challenges that affect individuals, families, and communities. As a chaplain working with families in healthcare settings, I have personally witnessed how grief can shape the very foundation of one's faith, identity, and meaning. It is a pain that words often struggle to even capture. But even in moments of darkness, a compassionate presence can become a source of light. Today, as I said, that I'm honored to welcome someone whose work centers on providing that very presence. Chaplain Mark Daniels starts as the manager of spiritual services of North Met Health Cohen's Children Medical Center, where he leads a team of dedicated and supported patients, families, and staff through some of life's most difficult moments. His journey into chaplaincy began during his own personal health crisis over 15 years ago, when uh the care of a hospital chaplain profoundly uh impacted his life. Since then, he has trained among Sinai West, completed residency at North Shore University Hospital, and pursued specialized fellowship training in pediatric chaplaincy. Our chaplain, Daniels, has served as a multi-faith chaplain uh in several healthcare institutions and has spent nearly a decade supporting families uh at Cohen's Children's Medical Center. He's a board, uh certified by the National Association of Jewish chaplains. And I'm very delighted to say that he was one of the persons that have nurtured me at my initial stage, at least guide me at my initial stage of chaplaincy. And I'm uh honored to have him here as a guest on our podcast. You know, uh, welcome, Mark. For you know, I know that you're busy with work and there is so much going on at this particular time, but you know, reading some aspects of your resume, maybe I can start with that. Um, I I came across that one of your favorite quotes, uh which really grasped my attention, and maybe we can start there, you know. And I'll read the quote. You said one of your favorite quotes is that when people come to you for help, do not turn them off with pious words. Um, act as if there was no God, and as though there were only one person in the world who can help them, who could help only yourself. And you know, I can can you shed some light on that as we start in a gentle note, please.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Yes, um, that's a quote from Martin Buber, who was a uh 19th-century theologian, um who I found a fascination with um in looking for answers to things that were challenging me and troubling me, and without going into a whole diatribe on on what um what Buber is all about, but Buber basically defined relationships in three categories. Yeah, the relationship between a person and an inanimate object is I it. The relationship between two human beings is I they or I thou. And the relationship between a human being and the holy one would be I eternal thou. I just found that extremely impactful, um, extremely respectful, and it says to me that the best thing a person can do for another person is relate to them as a human being. So when I first when I first read Booba's quote, I kind of said, boy, that's that's kind of like obnoxious to sit and say that you could take God's place. And that's not at all what he's saying. What he's saying is that as a human being, you could be there for everybody if you want to be. I've I found um my role as a chaplain, especially in the children's hospital, is that children, children are very, very interesting. If you can be there for them for the mundane, for just the things that just go on and on and on, when something really important comes to them, they now are interested in having you available to them at that point in time. And that I believe has been a key piece in trying to work with children and work with their families. The big difference between um pediatric chaplaincy and adult chaplaincy is that while quite often there are family members around when when adults are in the hospital, 99.9% of the time there is a parent or a guardian with that child in the hospital 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So it's you just have a different relationship with the patient because sometimes, and obviously some of some of my patients are too young to talk, more surely to understand what I may even be talking about. So we often will talk to the parent through the child, which is really a a trick that I learned in in um family dynamics, that you find the strongest link in the group and you direct the conversation to them, and it kind of makes everyone else kind of turn around and say, Oh, well, this guy is honoring grandpa's existence, or he's honoring Uncle Joe because he seems to be able to relate to him, and the rest of the family respect that person, so they turn around and say, Maybe this guy's okay. And that's it's just a matter of trying to be human and gain confidence. Um, it's it's the when I when I introduce myself to patients and families, I always introduce myself. My name is Martha. I'm the chaplain in the hospital. I don't go into crazy titles or or anything else. And when I usually turn to the kids who are old enough to understand that, I I tease them and I say, because I'm such a young man, sometimes they just play grandpa. And that usually gets a good smile on their face. Obviously, a young man like Yusuf Ross would not be able to pull that one off. Um, but sometimes we have to use the things that we can use to try and try and get us there. Go ahead. You got a question coming off your lips.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

No, no, no. I I just wanted to say that when I read that quote, you know, it the as I said, that people when they read something uh quite often they take whatever stands up for them. And the the thing that stood up for me is one of learning chaplains in terms of the importance of your presence. Your mere presence there is what is important and not just the same words that sometimes are empty words. It's it's the presence if we have nothing good to say, or something that we're not sure is gonna help the patient to some say to some extent in the family. Uh or silence is what more sometimes, you know, and how important our presence is uh in providing that. But and and you said something quite amazing that and I know that for a fact, that uh chaplaincy uh providing support of families that is experiencing some sort of dynamic because of a child is way different than an adult. And so therefore, you your your role is quite unique as a uh working in a children's hospital. Um, can you can you briefly share about your role as a chaplain at a children's hospital and how different that may be in providing help and you know to to families that are you know that is different from uh in terms of children?

SPEAKER_02 9:15

So let's let let's be honest with ourselves. Um we all know that at some point in time we're going to meet our maker. Um we're hoping that it's a long time away. If I were to say to you, Safras, I wish you good health and life, and you're gonna live to be 125. I think as a human being, you would have trouble handling that because automatically you now have a finite date that your life is going to come to an end. It's almost better not knowing than knowing, because it puts puts strange pressures on us. That being said, death is a very permanent piece and it's a challenging piece. But when the 90-something year old grandma or grandpa passes away, you hope that they had a reasonably good life, that they enjoyed it, that they had good relationships, etc. But it's not necessarily tragic in in the big picture. When a nine-month-old or a nine-year-old or a nineteen-year-old succumbs to a disease, um, it's unnatural. It's just it's not we're we're not expected to bury our children or our grandchildren. We we're expecting to bury our our elders, um, but not those younger than us. So it it it's a it's a it's a gingerly spot to kind of play with. And you I kind of often say to people when they're just dealing with it with a medical health crisis, a child health crisis, is that respectfully, two weeks ago, your concern was that you had adequate finances to house your family, to feed your family, to clothe your family, the normal things that people concern themselves with day in and day out.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

But today, when your child has been challenged by ecstasies, and I thought it doesn't matter what it is, um you've refocused on what's important in life. You've been able to refocus and say, you know what? Yes, I was unhappy that my electric bill was due and I wasn't able to pay the whole thing, so I made a deal with the electric company and I and I got through it. But I can't make a deal with somebody to make my child live longer than they should. And it puts a different perspective on life and it gives us the opportunity to see what's truly important. It's a horrible way to learn that lesson. Um, but but it is the one piece that I can sit and turn and say, you know, people often ask me the question, why? And I and I, you know I'm rather sarcastic at my humor, and I will, you know, turn around and say, Why is a crooked letter? But they're really asking why did this happen to me? And I think liturgically it's important for people to understand that all recognized religions believe that God is omnipresent, um, all benevolent, etc. Regardless of w of what word or term we use to to refer to the Holy One. But it's but it's important to know that parents often come to me with guilt and saying, I was dead and now God is punishing me by hurting my child. And I think it's important for people to recognize that if people believe as I know you and I do, and you're a devout Muslim, and I'm a devout Jew. So some people think that we're uh out and left field from each other. We're really not. I I kind of, as we've said before, we're kind of kissing cousins.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

We have a difference in the kissing cousins, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

But we're still moving along in the in in the same in the same vein and and this with respect. God does not God it's against all organized religion to sit and say that when you know when you were a young child, you stole a candy bar from the candy counter, um, and now God is now punishing you by hurting your child. That's just contrary to all religious belief. Um it's contrary to to thinking, and even if you don't believe in God, but you believe in Mother Nature being a supreme being, um, that's whatever it is, it's there to support us and to help us, um, not to punish us. Um we all have different understandings of what power God can have or cannot have, and that's a personal comfort level and and where you think you're going. But in you speak to anybody, nobody believes that God allows people to be punished. So I I want to diffuse that from from people's thinking. It's it's it's just not there. It's also part I don't I don't have a good answer as to the why, other than putting a perspective on the things that are important in life.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

So one of the things I'm hearing is that grief of losing a child is somewhat different than uh, you know, from an another type of grief. And um I can recall, you know, and this is you know, talking with you, uh just yeah, I'm recapturing back that moment. Uh, I think was my last unit, and um me our supervisor, she had doing a role play, and we were sitting together, and the role play was think that your partner just lost a child. Uh, and how would you provide the chaplain would provide um uh you know that support? So another chaplain was a chaplain, and myself was that parent that just lost the child. And this point was a role play. The conversation was intense, and just thinking about it, me, I I know my thought process there, just thinking about it. Like the class of those that were there, like I'll say that they were amazed that tears even flowed from my eyes, thinking about the idea that you're best with the child. And here's it, that you're losing that child. And uh because many family members, and I I think that's unique, maybe we can shed some some light on that, that they plan. They do not wake up in the morning and say, Well, I'm getting a child sometimes. You know, they make plans, they have plans like a year ahead, and they have expectations, what they want. Some will say, I want a boy or I want a girl, and they're making their plans along that line, family planning, and then they get that child, and they nurture that child for five months, and then having this big dream ahead of them, and then then they're told that the child was diagnosed with a hell threatening illness and sickness, and then losing that child. It's like losing a piece of them, right? Um, you know, uh definitely needs a sense of strength. And how do you support uh such a family? You know, like how do you uh find that the strength and um to even deal with something like that?

SPEAKER_02 16:27

That's a good question. And and there are um there are days that I have good answers, yeah, and there and days that I don't. I I often I've said this to a lot of people, and um being a chaplain, you need to center yourself before you go into a patient's room, regardless of why you're going in there, whether it's whether they have um something as as simple as um a need for an appendicitis and they have to have their appendix removed, which is a basically routine simple type of thing, or some much more grandiose surgery that is much more life-saving. But chaplains need to be able to go to find a century before they go into the room. My my easy trick, I am Jewish, and I before I go into the room, I will simply offer the watchword of the Jewish faith. I will say the Shema to myself very quickly and very quietly, and I will conjure in my in my mind, um, God has blessed me with five grandchildren, and I will think of my five grandchildren for strength, and then I will go in and and see what what I'm up against. Um, sometimes I'm up against simple challenges, sometimes I'm up against great challenges. But they these are pieces that as as a chaplain and as somebody who is always there to try and help people through their most challenging times, we have to create I call it an elevator wall. Um you need to be sincere and you need to be honest with the people that you're dealing with, but you need to be able to keep them at, I'm gonna say, at arm's distance, close enough to be able to be with them and truly be with them for what they're what they're going through, but distance enough to be able to separate yourselves. Um there are there are times when no matter what I prepare to do and what I try to do, I will call my wife up and just say, you know, this has been a really horrible day. Could you chill a martini glass for me? And I will go home and I it's not a it's not a good uh self-care process, but I will go home and I will toast the youngster that was lost because it's the only thing that I can think of doing. I say this is it's my last resort. It's something that I do on occasion. More importantly, I do make a habit of self-meditation, prayer. I like to walk a lot to clear my mind and relax. And I try to keep myself mentally as well as physically in reasonable condition so that I can deal with these processes. Um there is each person has their own little thing. And as as I um I often will uh do introductions at new new employee orientations, and I will say to them, you just need to find what it is that's good for you. It could be listening to music, it could be reading a book, it could be exercising. We each have one. Basically, drugs and alcohol are not acceptable um methods of self-care. Um, but you need to conjure something up that can help you get through these challenges and move on to the next one.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Thank you for sharing that. You know, and um while it's important for self-care, um, you know, can you share with me uh and maybe with the audience, um uh what are some of the immediate um probably needs of patients that have lost uh emotional, spiritual needs, parents that have lost a child. Let me see the immediate how can you support them? Like if someone from my community uh passed away and might not be a chaplain, maybe a few words of tips of how do you help someone um emotionally or spiritually, regardless of their their faith, um, if you're in opposition.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Okay, so as as we've talked about, and I I pride myself on being a multi-faith chaplain, and I define multi-faith different than interfaith, because interfaith is you're trying to get me to do your way or me trying to get you to do it my way. But multi-faith is saying that we all have our own individual faith, and they're all very similar. So in in the mosque or in the synagogue or in the church, the the Imam or the rabbi or the or the priest will teach and preach about their religion. As a hospital chaplain, we we teach and preach about spirituality, it's the commonality amongst all the organized religions. So that's that's one piece that we that we try to stay focused on. I will, since my knowledge is Judaism, and most of the prayers that I offer are Jewish prayers in nature. I obviously don't say them in Hebrew for a non-Jewish family. And I wordsmith a little bit to use things like eternal, a holy one. There are lots of people who believe in in a deity, but they don't like to use the term God. So I I try to try to keep more inclusive. Much more inclusive, gender neutral, etc., so that nobody gets, I try to appease everybody and offend nobody. But by do by doing this, it offers them a little bit of comfort. I will tell you, especially with Catholic patients, um, that I I have offered many Jewish prayers, and they will turn to me and they will say, Boy, that was a beautiful prayer. Where did you find it? And then I have to tell them my personal faith is Judaism. So it's a it's a prayer in Judaism, and this is why it's used and what it says. Just a quick funny anecdotal story. I had um had a family, um a young man um who had a brain tumor who was struggling for a while, and obviously was it was obvious that he was losing his his battle for life. Um his parents were super nice, super sweet.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

We had a really strong relationship going. And one day his mom said to me, I hope, Mark, I hope you don't mind, um, but could you arrange for a priest to do an honest Catholic last rites? And I said, sure, I'm not offended at all. I I'd be happy to. And I reached out to one of the priests that that I know, and he came over and I told her and the priest that I would be present during him offering the last rites, and I would also offer some prayers of my own, um, but she wanted the the the Catholic last rates. And when Dan father Dan and I left the room, um, he turned to me and he said, That was really nice, but you said the same thing I said. And I said to him, I said, Dan, you guys got it from us. Um, so you know, it's there. And and and the mom was appreciative. And and out of curiosity, he's been gone now two or three years. Um, and mom has tried to reach out to the hospital to do things to help other families. Um, and she's gotten herself involved with um a support group. Um, and she was actually in the hospital just last week, and I and I saw her, we got a big hug, and she said, I really want to sit down and follow up on all the stuff that we had talked about and done. But to me, it's just it's so important that somebody who has gone through this horrible process has the strength to want to overcome much of her grief and try to help other families. And I just think that that's an unbelievable, admirable thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Um, and and that was something we have learned as well, that you know, the the people cope differently. And one of the ways of coping is like that they find some meaning in the midst of trying to find some meaning in the midst of what's happening, and they stand, they stand. One's faith is also important, and I I can recall that we we were told during Apple and C and something we have read as well, that people lean in into stories within their own faith or incidents within their own faith to grasp that um that strength to cope with whatever hardship they're going through, and in this case, losing a child. And in in our theology as well, um, you know, the the prophet or a prophet have lost uh a child as well. And one of the things that he said, I think is universal, and you emphasize this that to God belongs that which he takes. And, you know, also what he gives, he keeps if it ultimately is decision. But the end of the day, uh that sometimes still uh leaves people with that doubt as to why this is happening to them. And you you answer that. Uh, is it challenging uh being a chaplain providing care for patients um from different religious backgrounds? What are some of the the challenges you may face?

SPEAKER_02 25:23

I don't I don't find it challenging anymore. I did find it very challenging until I got a little more comfortable with what what people reacted to well and what people didn't react to well. Um I think I think the important thing is to to maintain a level of sincerity um and also to understand that sometimes people don't necessarily want to hear from me, they want to hear from their own personal clergy. Um and that's and that's fine. It you know, it it felt like rejection when I first heard it years ago. Um, but today I'd rather I would rather get their personal clergy person here to be with them and have a relationship. And it it becomes much more meaningful for them when that happens.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

I I know uh hospitals like your your Scoin Sherman Hospital also lean into the community itself, right? Like the you often will reach out to the mosques nearby and uh other other communities neighbor. I think that's very powerful. Um maybe you can spend a few minutes more that we have, and you know, how how can friends and communities basically have fa uh members that that need support, uh grieving parents actually? How can the communities play a role in that?

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Well, I think I think um individual clergy could uh spend a little more time, a little more focus on trying to help them through that. Um this is not a commercial, but Cone Children is does have something called the Center for Hope. Um, H-O-P-E. And um it's it's run by one of our social workers, and it's designed to help families um who have lost a child. So it's designed for the parents, it's designed for the grandparents, it's designed for the siblings to help them process the the stages of grief and to to share with others what what's what's going on. And it's totally non-sectarian and it involves people of of of all faiths and and no faith.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

That's that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Thank you so much. You know, um, you know, in closing, our our time is coming um to an end, and um I I probably will ask, you know, what message of hope would you like to share with parents who are currently griefing? Message of hope, but maybe some guidelines. I think based on your experience, you know, being a father, being a grandfather, being a chaplain for over a decade, you know, with with with kids at the hospital, griefing families. Your words I I know do carry weight, and with your experience could bring some sort of comfort to to families.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

I think I I often counsel people to remember, um, it's my personal belief and my faith's belief that that child will always be your child, your grandchild, your niece, your nephew, your cousin, whatever it was, for as long as you are alive. Um we can hold them in our hearts and in our minds. Um I think that's a very important component. Um No, we can't touch them. Um, we can't have a dual dual two-way conversation with them, but how many of us have a one-way conversation with the Almighty? Um and find some comfort in that. And it's it's nice to know that I like to think that to a certain extent that departed child is a guardian angel for the family. Um and I think that I think that gives families a little bit of hope and a little bit of trust. Um, and for those of us that believe in a hair hereafter, maybe we get to remeet, and that might just make up for it.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

And it's interesting that you say that. Um, that in uh in our theology, uh in my theology, in Muslim as a Muslim, um, we are told that when you lose a child, that child will be in paradise and will bear testimony for us, will stand up on the day of Rakin and say, God, this is my parent, you know, the endure XYZ, that and they will hold them by their hands and walk them in paradise, and God would allow them. Uh, this is something that we we were taught, and uh, as I said, that it may not resonate with everyone based on their faith, but as for for Muslims, this is something that we try to instill. Um, I know there's much more that you can offer. Um your presence um in in presence in the room where you have the family members grief, and um, I know bring calm and based on who I know you are, and I want to thank you so much for the work that you have done. And I always, despite we don't communicate often, but I always, when I speak with anyone, say that I have a good relationship with an elder by the name of Mark Daniels and someone that I you know admire uh a great deal and appreciate a great deal. So you will, as long as I have that awareness, you will always be a name that I mentioned because of your personality. And thank you so much for your friendship and also for the work that you have done, whether it is in the current hospital that you are you're in currently now uh or previous institutions, or and also for your future uh endeavors that you may have. I wish you all the best. And in closing, uh, I want to say uh to any parents listening who is grieving, your pain uh is seen, your love is honored, and your child's memory also matters. And uh I hope that you find um some sort of comfort um in your loss and know that God does not place a burden on your shoulder more than more than you can bear. And this is a statement from our uh from our script scripture. Uh, thank you all for uh joining in uh uh and listening. Kindly do not hesitate uh to share and subscribe on our podcast, Safra's Back to the Life Institute. And this is a safe space where we're discussing in these episodes coping mechanism, and today we have discussed coping and the loss of a child.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

God be with you somehow.