Voices Against Hate – Episode 6: Husein Yatabarry on Building Belonging, Confronting Hate

In this episode, Safraz Bacchus sits down with Husein Yatabarry, Executive Director of the Muslim Community Network (MCN), for a thoughtful conversation on identity, belonging, and the fight against hate. Husein reflects on growing up as the son of Gambian immigrants in the Bronx, navigating life as a Black Muslim in post-9/11 America, and how those experiences shaped his commitment to civic engagement and community leadership. Together, they explore Islamophobia, hate crime prevention, interfaith collaboration, and the importance of empowering young people to lead with faith, purpose, and compassion. This inspiring discussion highlights how dialogue, education, and service can build stronger, more inclusive communities.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

We are living in a time where hate has become louder, where words are fueling division, and where fear and violence are entering our streets, schools, homes, and places of worship. Every day, people are being targeted because of their faith, race, culture, or simply because they are different. But we refuse to allow hate to define our future. This series is about more than hate crimes. It is about humanity, healing, understanding, and courageous conversations that bring people together instead of tearing them apart. Featuring faith leaders, community advocates, public officials, survivors, and voices from different backgrounds united in confronting hate and building hope. Because love must speak louder than hate. And our shared humanity must always rise above division. Join us for this powerful new series on the SB Life Institute podcast, Conversations on Hate, Healing, Unity, and Hope. Coming soon. Greetings and peace and love be with you all. Welcome to another meaningful conversation. And today we will continue our discourse on this very but difficult subject area: hate, prejudice, discrimination, and the path towards healing. Hate crimes are not only statistics. I want to say that behind every number is a person, a family, a community, and also a story. Sometimes hate begins when people stop seeing the humanity in each other, when we reduce someone to their religion, to their race, to their clothing, to their accent or their background. We forget the most basic truth, and that is that every human being wants dignity, safety, and respect. Today, I am quite delighted and honored to welcome a young leader whose work represents hope and also represents building bridges. Hussein Yatabari, executive director of the Muslim Community Network. Our dear brother was born and raised in the Bronx, and also he's the son of a Gambian Muslim immigrant. Hussein understands what it means to preserve your identity, your belonging, and the challenges faced by many Muslims and immigrant communities. My dear brother Hussein, welcome. Welcome to SB Life Institute Podcast. And, you know, to commence our discourse, I will say that hate crime is something that we're seeing quite prevalent in our community today. Of course. And I always be believe behind every leader, there is a personal story that you can share and experiences that you can share to help in this particular situation. And I want to say that you grew up reading a little bit about you and knowing about you, that you grew up in the Bronx as the first American-born child of Gambian Muslim immigrants. And can you take us back to, you know, as we commence so that our viewers will able to know a little bit more about you, about back to your childhood and what was it like growing up as a black Muslim African and American in New York, to be specific?

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Thank you so much. Thank you for your beautiful introduction. Um I think when hearing those words, I think, hey, it's one of these things that need to be really confronted, but it really starts from everyone's personal stories. So my story, it doesn't begin in the Bronx, it begins in the Gambia. It begins with my parents, um, both Gambian immigrants making their way to a new land that none of them really truly understand.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

And both of them battle to get accepted throughout the whole process of being here. Um, growing up as a child in New York City, you know, um, there was always a feeling of I am different because I am West African in my community, and my community was very new to the neighborhood that I was in. The neighborhood I was in was predominantly African American and Dominican. We were coming in mass as a new community. There was a lot of bumping heads that were happening. Sorry, there was a lot of bumping heads that were happening along the way. So there were a lot of confrontations with this is pre-9-11.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

A lot of confrontations and bumping heads, but not due to religion, due to difference in culture. Culture. So being an African, African Muslim in a new community, the the religion didn't really hit the top of it. It's just we wore different clothes. We talked funny. And these are the things that are being said, like, um, oh, like, do y'all want a banana? And it's like a lot of these racial stereotypes, racial stereotypes, these racial bias, less so than religious bias. I didn't start really understanding religious bias until post-9-11. In our neighborhood, I would say pre-9-11, there was a lot of fights amongst us as young kids with other kids in the community because there was a lack of understanding and there was a lot of ignorance. So there was like a big feeling of like having to defend ourselves and who we were. Post 9-11, I mean, things just got utterly disgusting. Um, because I don't think people really knew what Islam was. So I don't think that kind of played a factor into their mind. Post 9-11, everyone just only had a negative view of Islam. So you can only imagine if there's other isms and prejudices people have against you, add being Muslim to the top of that, it can feel overwhelming as a black Muslim in New York City at that time period. It can be feel overwhelming for every Muslim, but specifically you have racial stereotypes against you, but then your religious stereotypes against you as well. And I would say the young kid, when I talk about identity in my biography, it was really hard to be myself in the beginning. Like when 2003, I would say that's really the point for me where the US went to start the the invasion or incursion on Iraq, the war on terror. My name happened to be Hussein. And that would be only imagine. Imagine, yeah. Saddam, Saddam Hussein, Saddam, yo, you're gonna blow up the school, you're gonna blow something up. And oh my god. But you have to imagine, I'm at that age, I'm I'm in fourth grade, fifth grade. It's I'm just overwhelmed because I'm like, I'm gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

How you dealt with that?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Sometimes anger, sometimes frustration. Like in moments, just acceptance of just like, oh, this must just be a joke. Let me just let it slide. It's like you're young, so like you kind of don't even know how to truly address it. And you don't, and then you look at the news and you're like, is it even gonna be addressed if I even like really speak up about this? Because I'm seeing Muslims getting beat down, I'm seeing cab drivers, I'm seeing seeing stores get ransacked, I'm seeing vandalism at mosques. Are are these little statements, should I even make something of this? So and this is the things I'm thinking as a child. It's like, should I make something more of this if I'm not physically getting abused or physically getting harmed? And and that's where I was for a long time. And it took for me to go to a space in high school where I was around many Muslims. I would say high school was like a turning point because I was around so many Muslims and I saw Muslim identity at Brooklyn Tech in so many different ways that I really started to like openly like it really express my Islam as like I am Muslim in a way where in them years post-9-11, the years right post-9-11, it was, it was, it was extremely difficult. I I was hesitant to like openly talk about like my identity.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Yeah, I so I I what I'm hearing from you that there's obviously navigating different identities, being that person that is here in the US, African identity, Muslim identity, and then having to deal with all of that, um wanting to be accepted because you see yourself a part of it. Um many young people today that I see they're struggling with the question, where do I belong? So as a person that with immigrant families coming from Gambia, living in the Bronx or in New York, basically, in the midst of all of that, you know, I can imagine what other young people are going through. And now that you're in a position you could talk about this and inspire others, that there are many out there that always remember will also remember those challenges and those hardships, and it will definitely have an impact on them, have an impact. Did you ever experience a moment where you felt that you had to choose between different parts of your identity? Muslim, African American, Gambian, like you had to make a choice.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

I mean, I I think because I don't think we I think this society, at least in New York City, has gotten better at understanding identities. I don't think we're all the way there where people like to compartmentalize and put things in buckets. Yeah. So when you have too many identities, it people feel overwhelmed and will try to peg you in a bucket. I think as I've kind of aged and matured in life, I've just choose chosen to say, like, no, like then no, don't put me in a bucket. These are the things that I am. And I think that only comes with time, that comes with knowledge, that comes with like reflection upon self. Like I told you, high school was like the time period for me where I saw students of my own age group en masse and different expressions of the Muslim identity along with their ethnic identities en masse. Um, going to Brooklyn Tech, I met, like I had students that were Bengali, Pakistani, Arab for the first time in my life. Um, I was in a neighborhood that I told you, Dominican, African-American, and we West Africans. Yeah. Growing population, but very new. When I went to Brooklyn Tech, it was so diverse when I saw all the different communities. And I saw students from different places, and I got to visit their neighborhoods around the city. I was just like, I got this backwards. Going to visit my friend in Jackson Heights and seeing their neighborhood and the expression of a growing Jackson Heights during that time period between 2006 and 2010. Um, going to Astoria and seeing a burgeoning Arab culture within Astoria and like seeing these different parts of the city that I didn't know in the Bronx because my community is. It's very unique. I'm like, we we shouldn't be hiding in the shadows. We shouldn't be just trying to blend in with one of my identity marketing and just saying, oh yeah, I'm just black. I'm not just black, I'm not just African, I'm I'm not just Muslim, I'm all of the above. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

And more. You're a New Yorker. I'm a New Yorker. Yeah, and and the the different shades that we see and different culture that we see is what put together is very beautiful. Mosaic mosaic that presents itself very very beautifully. You know, like today we often hear the term hate crime. People always say this is hate crime, right? But often many people do not really understand um what is hate crime, right? So from your work as uh at MCN, how do you explain what hate crime is? And many communities need to take this seriously because uh a few days ago we see on Jum'a, Jum'a Day, the day where Muslims will assemble, for example, for our congregation, weekly congregational prayer, there's someone that wiggled his way into the mosque and wanted to harm the congregants there, right? And we're seeing in an area as diverse as Queens, I'm living in Queens, we often think that this does not actually happen in a place like Queens. But we're seeing that quite often that uh this type of hateful rhetorics and actions uh raise its ugly head even to the place where we think we are safe.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Like when you have to understand what the simplest way I look at hate crime is purposeful miseducation.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Miseducation exists throughout the world, miseducation can happen by accident. I think hate crime is miseducation about different peoples purposefully by institutions. I I think it's institutionalized. When it comes to m specifically Muslims, I think Muslim hate is embedded in like Islamophobia is embedded in actual governmental systems.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Since post-9-11, we've seen law enforcement mechanisms seveal mosques, send undercovers to mosques. You've seen elected officials federally like the President Donald Trump at the state level, at the city level, with council members like Vic Vicky Paladino or Ina Ranakov. When things become so institutionalized, you start seeing the populace. Yeah. The regular everyday person starts attacking their Muslim neighbor. Sounds like a lot of people. It becomes a norm when you're seeing. But when all these elected officials are participating in Islamophobia, it makes people believe that then it's rational for me to have this fear. It's rational for me to attack, it's irrational to me for me to be anti-Muslim. And we see that actually like blossoming in parts of the country nowadays. We saw the dramatic shooting in San Diego where we get people attacked in New York, but that that's the culmination event when you get people getting killed. Yeah. People losing life due to stereotypes growing into bias incidents, going into hate crimes, turning into hate acts that carry life as like at the end outcome. And there's an institutional problem, this all across the country, when it comes to how elected officials and people of power have conversations about Muslims, how the media covers Muslims. It's been horrendous. And I think platforms like this are the the reason why platforms like this exist is to tell a different narrative because the mainstream narrative that's been out there around Muslim communities, around all communities, has been through a skewed lens. Any community you name it is a skewed lens to talk about that community. Whether you talk about Hispanic communities, you talk about immigrant communities, there's always a skewed lens, black communities, there's always a skewed lens in media around communities. Because they choose the easiest stereotypes as their basis and foundation for information. When communities actually happen to be so robust, so different, so diverse, and people don't want to take the time, it's laziness. That's why I say it's intentional. It's intentional laziness to lean into the worst attributes that you can attribute to a community.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Your point is taken and it should be taken seriously. Um what efforts do you think, what role do you think like religious leaders and religious communities should play in counteracting this? How do we deal with such? Uh, because you're seeing that it's not coming from the layman, that it's been encouraged from the highest office of this country. Yeah. What way do your organization, maybe you can speak a little bit about the work of your organization in in educating and highlighting this? We should have a uh um a roadmap, so to speak, how to counteract this. Yeah, so what's your thought process?

SPEAKER_01 16:46

You know, at Muslim Community Network at MCN, we have a two-prong approach, I guess, toward combating hate. Um, our first approach is I would say more of an educational platform of educating people on what are hate crimes and bias incidents and how to go apart about the reported mechanisms and making sure people understand that they have to report, whether it's based on hate or bias, they shouldn't let anything slide or stand. And also providing the safety training so that they can also properly um defend themselves and these escalate situations when they're happening. But also having the proactive approach of also doing diversity education work with city, state, institutions, collaboration, and collaboration and schools to also teach them more about the diversity of the Muslim community and how to best support those communities. Because, like I said, there's been a purposeful meet misseducation in the MCN. We feel like it's our purpose in order to redefine and shape that narrative and re-educate communities on the Muslim life in America and specifically in New York City. Um, we also hold circle roundtables where we bring community members together, community leaders together in order to have conversations about the landscape of hate in New York City and steps we need to go taking about that landscape. We also do a lot of intentional work behind the scenes with elected officials at the city council level, with elected officials at City Hall and at um the governor's mansion um in New York, in order to have these conversations around hate and what institutions need to do from inside. Because all a lot of the things that I'm telling you, those things don't make its way or penetrate it. It has to come from leadership. So leadership in all these institutions and bodies have to have an intentional view of making sure they're dismantling Islamophobia. And if leadership doesn't have that intentional view of dismantling Islamophobia from inside, then we need to make some noise outside in order to put pressure on them from the outside.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Because that is what I was gonna say to you that there are some of our politicians that are there. They recognize that Islamophobia is an issue and they listen, they try to help and assist. But they're that faction that care cares less about this problem, and I think they're very selective in talking about hate crime. And we have to be very open with this because it's quite visible that when hate crime, when hate crime is being spoken about or highlighted, it's only a particular group. And I think that bias needs to be highlighted because even 1000%. Even when it comes to um the statistics that we are seeing, that is not truly, it's not truly representing the amount of um Islamophobic Um incidents that we had and attacks that we had. And there are various factors for that, whether it's immigration issue, whether it's fear, whether it's a Muslim say, you know, alhamdulillah, this is my test, because we have that way. Like we don't want to get entangled into calling the NYPD or interacting with the NYPD. There is a sense of fear, and that's that's why I agree with you that there is a need for us to be very vocal and also educate our communities, that there is not, there isn't an issue with you going to the NYPD or to the Muslim leader and say, I encountered X, Y, and Z to go and report.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Because I think it needs to be a baseline that all hate is wrong. Yes. Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, anti-black, anti-LGBTQ, anti-Asian, anti-immigrant, no matter what it is, it's wrong. The problem that I'm seeing, and like sometimes people say, like, oh, like, why do you specifically like when they're talking, like, why do you specifically harp on the Muslim community and the Islamophobia against them? That's the only community I'm seeing where the Islamophobia and the hate is cast aside by people in power.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

That's really concerning to me because there aren't many communities where people in power, people in power say anti-Semitism is a is a problem across all sides of the political spectrum. Yeah. When it comes to Islamophobia, some parts of the spectrum, you'll see you see some sides saying this is a huge problem, other sides will be like, it's not really. They wrote it on themselves. That's concerning to me, and that has to be addressed. If all hate crimes and all hate bias is not treated the same, then you're leaving an opening for the worst of society to prey on a community. And that's what's happening with Muslims in the United States.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Yeah, and and and we're feeling that. We're seeing it, we're sensing it, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

I mean, we had anti-Muslim protests outside of Gracie Mansion because we have a Muslim mayor.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

We had students and um preteens attacked in Bay Ridge, and one day there were three attacks. Like you had the San Diego shooting, you had the the BB gun incident at the mosque in at Juma in Queens.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Where there's reports that like uh explosive device was placed in the restaurant.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Right now, there's too many, there's too many incidents in name for people in power to even deny that Islamophobia is a problem that persists and that they need to like tackle and be intentional about. And I think that for me, that's the that's the biggest piece and the biggest takeaway is there are many advocates and friends that are in places of power that advocate for Muslims and to make sure that Muslims are more comfortable in New York City life and across the United States. Yes. But though some of the most powerful forces are very anti-Muslim, and we see it embedded throughout the country. We see anti-Sharia laws, we see in Texas like this movement to really like stifle Muslim life because they see Muslims going um in population. Progressive, yeah. Progressive. Progressive, yeah. So I I I do think there's a lot of concerns, and I think we we can no longer shy away from it as a community, not just as a Muslim community, as a Muslim community with their allies. I think we can't say we were tired. We can never be tired because if we were tired, kids of today would never have eat as a public holiday. If we got tired, Muslims would not be able to do some of the things that they're able to do now, like become the mayor of a city like New York, one of one of the most um enigmatic cities of America and America's history. So the the forefathers and leaders of communities before didn't get tired. So I think we have to ramp up our efforts and make sure that this resurgence of anti-Muslim hate that we stamp it out. Because I think it's uh it's a reaction to like acceptance of Muslims broadly around the United States, and you see a packet saying like this is our last effort to bring Islamophobia back and bring it to state.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Being a young Muslim here in New York, right, I I would want you to direct this counsel and advice to the younger people and to our community because there's there's a clash and identity, I think, when it comes to Muslims, because there is a segment of our community that feels that engages in in civic groups to advocate for things like against hate crime or to uh for the rights of Muslims and justice. It's it's considered to be quote-unquote politics, and this is not accepted. And you mentioned something very beautifully that if we were people who were laid back, then we would not got Edel Adhan, Idl Fitr in the calendar. So, what advice do you have, you know, as a young person to the younger people that are hiding the identity with being who they are, truly who they are? I'm an American. Um and they try to hide their identity as Muslim American, or I'm an African American because of the way, or a person that have different orientation or different like come from migrant communities, that there is a sense of um lack of belonging and as such, they hide that identity. What you what do you what can you share?

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Yeah, um, I think as a young person, um it's gonna require constant reflection throughout your whole life. Yeah. You are it's gonna be a lifelong process to understand who you are at your core. I think it takes education, I think it takes work, I think it takes work in connecting with your community to learn more about your community. I think a deficit that I have as a Gambian American is that I wasn't born in Gambia and a lot of the cultural norms and like some of that beauty of my community, I have to learn secondhand. Yeah, not at a source. Um even religious practices, like it it's different growing up back home and growing up in the United States and like having that dual education of like religious practices, but also secular education. So I think there are a lot of dualities that that are at play and plurality that are at play for young people, young Muslims in the United States specifically. But I think taking time for reflection to understand who you are makes engaging in civics a lot easier because you know your boundaries and you know what are your non-negotiables. And I think people are so off put by politics because when they enter, it feels overwhelming and they don't know what their principles are in entering the space of a civics' life. When you know who you are, you have your principles, you have your non-negotiables, your values, and your boundaries. Whether you want to work within the system or outside of the system, understanding those things allow you to engage in civic life. Everyone's not gonna work in government or want to run for politics. That's not for everybody. And that doesn't mean that you have to do that. But that means that doesn't mean you don't vote. You have to vote because these people are making decisions for you. That doesn't mean that you don't come and advocate for policy or advocate against for policy because this policy is governing your life. Um going outside and protesting, that's that's your constitutional right. That is a right. But also making sure on the back end, the people that are in power, you are making sure at the age of 18, I am part of this election process for these people because I paid my taxes, whether you work or not. If you if you go to the store and you buy something and they add an eight cent stack, you're paying sales tax. Yeah. That tax goes to the government.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

So why wouldn't you have a say in how they're gonna spend your money? Why wouldn't they have that say in how they're gonna govern you and how they're gonna govern your life? It affects you. Yeah. But again, it feels overwhelming when you don't have a core set of principles and values, but that comes as a young person throughout your learning process and like kind of figuring out who you are and what you the things you care about, because it's impossible to advocate for everything across the board. Yeah. There's so many things that's govern. You have to say like which are the things that I'm going to always speak up for, and these are core to me, and these are things I really care about because I think there's an injustice here. Yeah. And what are the things that I'm gonna put to the side? I can't speak to anyone and say these are the things that you have to advocate for. That person has to feel that instinctually. But once you kind of have that on your own, it is your right, it is your duty to engage. It's a duty of our religion to engage. Because when there's injustice happening to one, there's injustice happening to all. That's a core tenet and principle. And if we see an injustice happening to one and injustice happening to all, if we're taking that at its core, then we have to do something about that injustice. If you are sitting home and staying silent, then you're not doing anything about that injustice. And doing something about it looks different for every single person. And I think everyone thinks, oh, I have to protest or I have to vote. It's a common thing. You can do the best combination of all is a combination of all the above. Yeah. And I think it's figuring out the right combination that works for you, that makes you feel comfortable and safe. But be a part of it. But be a part of it. Be a part. Don't disengage. Because there are parts of America that want you to disengage. They've wanted Muslims to disengage for so long. They've tried for so long. And I think they're kind of like scratching their heads as to like, wait, they still kind of keep gaining power or momentum, and like they keep getting solidarity from other communities. But that's because we haven't disengaged. And once we start disengaging, we'll lose every ounce of influence that we've ever had of our narrative. And the people, some people want to control our narrative, they want to control our stories, they want to control how Muslims are perceived, they want to control how Jewish people are perceived, they want to control how Christians are perceived and how gay people are perceived. And people want to control the narrative for you. And it goes to any young person with any identity marker. Don't let someone else control your narrative and how you're perceived. Make sure you're engaging civically and align with people and powers that feel right to you.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

That's that's quite profound. Um, you know, at an early stage of our discussion, we talked, you alluded to 9-11, right? Yeah. And that for many Muslims in America, especially after 9-11, identity became very complicated, right? And we talked about that. Many felt they have constantly have to explain themselves and to prove that they they belong. And so I'll say that we talked about the media uh misrepresentation, stereotyping, the rise of Islamophobia. Uh I I want to ask, you know, like to be realistic. Seeing the rise of Islamophobia, and we talk about uh how we can tackle this, I think resources is quite important. And that's what you know I I want to to have this this part of discussion uh centered around resources because there's a lot of people that experience this um in the train, in their workplace, they don't know where to go, where to start. And because of that phosphoration, what happens is prefer to deal with it, and that affects them for for years. It has an emotional impact on them and because of their silence and not having that energy, you know. Um, how do we inspire people that their resources out there inform them, their resources out there that we that they can get help, they can speak to someone, and that they will hold their hand to take them.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

So what we found is um, I think I think you hit it on the nose, but I want to go from like a little bit of a different angle. So when we talk about resources, I think as an institution, MCN, there's a there's a brevity of resources that are out there present. Many communities lack access to those resources. They don't even know they exist. That's what we found to be the most fundamental problem.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Whether it's reporting mechanisms, whether it's victim services, uh, whether it's uh legal services, all of those things exist legal services. They all exist for victims of hate crimes and bias incidents. And oftentimes a lot of it is free. Access to the resources and knowledge of these resources that baffles communities. Um, the number of people that have come to us and say this is X, Y, and Z happened to me and didn't know who to contact, it's it's like really scary. And that's why we do the hate crime education workshops. Um, so there needs to be resources for nonprofits and CBOs to like get more of this word and resources to communities. Uh, make sure like every mosque and house of worship across the city has access and numbers to these resources, so that maybe you can't reach me and you don't know who I am, but you do know your neighborhood imam or chaplain or rabbi or or um leader at the temple that has access to the resources and said, like, we got trained on this. So something that we want to launch in FY27 is like a train the trainers of like gathering imams in groups so that they don't know how to act when hate incidents happen. I think it's agreed in contact, yes. So that's something that we're working on. There's something that we want to roll out in the fall because more important than us being like this gatekeeper as to who to contact for hate crimes, we want to make sure like this group is properly trained. This group knows the city officials they need to contact. This group knows the exact who to contact and how to navigate it. Yes, because I am one person, we are one org. I we also want to give you some, we want to come in and advocate with you when you say we're contacting this person and we want you as part of the conversation. But we don't want to dictate what's happening in each community because we don't know every community to its core and all of it.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

It's a sense of empowerment. It is. And community needs to be empowered.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Empowered, yeah. Because when communities are empowered, you feel more comfortable in trusting accessing the resources if your neighborhood imam is coming to you and saying, we need to file this hate crime, we need to file this report, rather than Hussein, the executive director of MCN, an outside organization, whether I'm Muslim or not, doesn't matter. You don't know me. So there's no trust in me and that my institution will support you to the best of his ability. So we would prefer going forward to still do the community education, but to train the Imam separately on how to like kind of enact a process and a plan when things happen in their in their in the house of worship. Connect them with their local precinct, what their local precinct would file hate crimes if a hate crime or bias incident happened. Knowing the people at City Hall that's going to be in charge of community safety, knowing the people at state that's in charge of DHS, which is in charge of safety for all communities and human rights, DHR. So making sure these community leaders across New York City know the right people to contact. If you call me and you're not able to get to me, you know the person that you're supposed to get to. And we think that's really important. And aside from just that, resources, when we talk about resources, there's funding resources for organizations, for houses of worship, but there's also political capital. And that's something that's really, really missing is the political will to create that change, which is something that we have to advocate for on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly cadence. We cannot let political officials like forget that there's a major safety issue in our community. And if there's a leader that doesn't think there's a safety issue in our community, then you have to go to the ballot box and use your political capital to bring in somebody that's gonna hear the concerns of the community. Exactly because there's a couple of politicians in the city that don't hear the concerns of Muslim communities at all. It's it's on deaf ears. And if it's gonna be on deaf ears, then they should be home. They should they should govern something else, but they should not govern your community.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

And uh you you were actually on point where that is that is concerned. And I I think um the idea of training our imams and community leaders to empower them, it's a brilliant idea. And I I hope to be part of that definitely because um being an imam in New York for the past 13 years, I've seen that there is a challenge of getting um religious leaders in involved in civic civic engagement and to be a part of that table. And and seriously recognizing that the issue of hate crimes and the injustices that we're seeing directly towards Muslims, that is gonna affect our children years from now. Yes. That we will probably pass, but these kids are are are the inheritors of course for tomorrow. And unless we empower them and embolden them and say that you are a part of this community. 1000%. You're part of this community and that you should not settle for less, so to speak. At all, right? You should not settle for less. And the way to do that is to empower yourself through education. And um I also want to, because as as you mentioned in our discourse, that it's not only about Islamophobia, right? It's about um hate directed to other communities, religious communities and minority communities. How important is this for us to collaborate? Collaboration with other faiths and other minority communities.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

I I think it's crucial because the perpetrators of hate crimes are part of other communities. The perpetrators of hate crimes are part of sometimes other minorities. So like we can't just pull that apart because like it has to be in solidarity with one another because any perpetrator from hate crime is from a community. Everybody's part of a community. So those communities also have to be involved in making sure inwardly they're able to have those tough conversations as to why there is hate there and how to resolve it. Without that collaboration, you're just talking to the world and there's pockets of communities that are really hard to get that maybe your communication methods will not be able to reach. But when you're in collaboration with other communities, they'll know how to reach those pockets of their community that will need the re-education and saying, hey, it's pockets here. The way you're treating this other community is completely wrong. The way you're talking about this other community is really wrong. And I want to introduce you to members of that community so you all really understand who they are. I will never be able to go to somebody that has hate in their heart and be able to convince them that I'm good. Someone from a different community of that same community may have a better opportunity to change a mind rather than me talking to somebody that they already have their mindset, and somebody from the external is not really changing their mind. Somebody internally has a better opportunity of changing their mind. And you see, you see it in politics, you see it in the world always at play. Like Saza say, if you see um Donald Trump, whatever he says with MAGA Republicans go, right? Yeah. If he changes his mind on something, everyone else shifts their mind. No Democrat is coming and shifting the mind of many MAGA Republicans. Donald Trump shifts their mind. If he says, I change my mind on this initiative tomorrow, they change their mind. So it has to be an internal process. So that's that's just kind of this the psychology of sometimes the hive mindset is like, but in now in a hate context, collaborating with communities and having people of those communities talk to people that need enlightenment, that's gonna go a long way towards like really getting to that intended goal of a more peaceful society.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

I I I I love your in-depth thought process about this. Um the other thing, you know, we're gonna wrap up, you know, um, I've had the privilege to be with you in a uh in gatherings where we protest against hate. And in the midst of those gatherings, hate was spewed at us. And I saw your composure as a young person. Um tell me a little bit about that composure. Uh composure means like your calmness. And you know, quite often when we're faced with hateful rhetorics in front of our face, this is not on a keyboard. Someone types something in front of your face. They're using these disgusting words directing to you as a person and also to your faith. The thing that you love so much, whether it's Prophet Muhammad or the Quran or anything regarding our faith that we hold so precious to us that is being targeted in front of us, and then you have this sense of composure. What do you say to a person that that sits in front of you and know that they have prejudice or hate? What you will say to such a person?

SPEAKER_01 41:00

So for me, I I will say this I am not Martin Luther King. If if you strike me, there will be I am I'm just guaranteeing that it's like I'm not like this anti-violent person. I am peaceful. Yeah. And I want people to understand your words, they're harmful.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

But that's not going to make get me out of my character to not be peaceful. I have already told you that Islam is a religion of peace. You don't believe that. And you don't want to believe that. You're trying to trigger me, so then you can clip me to say, look, Islam is not a religion of peace. And look at look at Hussein, he's wild and he's out of control and he flew off the handle. The only way you'll get that from me is if you touch me. And if you don't touch me and you're just trying to trigger me through words, that won't work. I went through those trials and tribulations as a young person. I was a young person that put hands on people for words, for words when I was younger. And I also had to sit down and reflect and like really connect with Allah. And what I got from prayer was defend yourself. If if if you are under attack or you are under harm, if you are under pressure by words, defend yourself with words. But no, no need to get in the mud, the mud with pigs.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

I I I'm gonna keep myself clean. I don't need to, I don't need to get in the mud with you, but it also also then shows to other people because in those moments, even some elected officials have come to me about my composure and said, I'm so sorry that happened to you, and this is a problem. Because they also did see that someone was being problematic, and I'm like, you know, as a Muslim, my religion tells me not to. And it it does, it does do some kind of changing of the mind for those people that are like change makers in government, where it's like, you know what? This they're actually right, they they're very peaceful people, and people are trying to trigger them actively.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

And I I I I do think that there is a need for because the lack of knowledge about something creates that phobia and that fear, right? So getting to know your neighbor, um, opening our places of worship for people to come in and know who we are. Yes. Take the time to get to know your Muslim neighborhood or your Christian neighbor or your Jewish neighbor. We're all neighbors. We're all neighborhoods. You're all neighbors, yes. So get to know them, and then I think it will remove that tension that is there.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

I I'll say this. For most of New York City, this is not a problem. Yes. For most of America, also, this is not America is 330 million people. America is um and for New York City, we have 8 million people. These, these, these things happen in isolation. It is a problem, yes. But I do want to say we have come a long way. Yeah. I do see more acceptance of Muslim students. I do see more institutions asking how we can make things comfortable for. Muslims. There are, and that's what I'm saying. Why we're seeing Islamic will be in the resurgence. We see that very negative, evil, ritualic pocket kind of seeing the closing of the door on them. And that's what they're really afraid of, is that people within their own communities have started to kind of see through the shadow and say, this community is alright. This community is good. What are you telling me? You're telling me that they're bad, but I'm seeing good. That's infuriating to somebody that wants to keep the norm, the status quo. It's like, no, they're bad. Look at this. This thing happened 9-11 happened. But people live around Muslims in New York City, and that's why they voted in Mayor Zoam Dani.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

They've lived around Muslims their whole life. They're not allowing religion to be what's their X factor to like knocking them out. I'm looking at what he's saying. His religion, for many people who asked him, his religion mattered to me none. Could have been Jewish, he could have been Muslim, he could have been Christian. I liked what he was saying about affordability for me in this city. And I think there's many people in New York City that just starting to look at Muslims for the content of their character, not their hijab, not their kufi, not their kaftan, not their kurta. It's like, who are you, Imam Safraz? Who are you, Hussein? That's what I'm caring about most. And I'm so happy that the majority of New York City is there. And our fight is to make sure that all of New York City is there and all of America is there, the whole world. Because we should be looking at people by the content of their character. It shouldn't be based on this identity marker that I have this feeling about you and I've derided you as somebody that I shouldn't care about.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

So uh as I conclude, I just want to reiterate that point that you that you make because um being uh a healthcare chaplain at one of the hospitals, I I tried to initiate programs. I was among the first that initiated a program at a particular hospital where we celebrate Edel Alha and Eidl Fitr. We started at the park beside the hospital. And today it grows after many years. It grows to the extent that we're using the main uh main lobby and have all the doctors and so forth. And we half an hour gathering, we share meals, and it's an opportunity to share cultural competence. We're not celebrating because yes, it's a holiday, but also it's a form of education, what it signifies for us. And I think that for me, I can recall the first time I enter into a synagogue, knowing the tension that we were trying to create between Muslims and the Jewish community, that I was so overwhelmed and like highly emotioned, overcome me and tears flowing from my eyes. Go into that synagogue, sitting, someone there actually speaking to us about the significance, and you cannot help to see that there is a commonality, and that commonality is Prophet Abraham and Ismail and Ishaq.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

You know, and there's so much shared communities between in New York City, between when you go to parts of Brooklyn, parts of Queens, all over the city. You have Muslim neighborhoods right next to Jewish neighborhoods, and there's no tension. Tensions come when there's global conflict, but there's not normally any tension because people hate Jews and then it's not instinctive. There's there's a lot of problems and issues that arise when there's global tensions and things are happening around the world. It always makes its way to one of the largest cities in America.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

We were not born born with hate. No, but this we we we developed this, we learned this from the things around us, right? Uh from an Islamic perspective, uh, we were born in the state of fetrah, purity. That we were born out of love, you know. And we developed this.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

No, humans always develop hate over time due to everything, all the inputs that they have. But you know, like sometimes I even tell people, I'm like, there's not, there's not this Muslim Jewish war. There is a political question and like debate and disagreement and rift, but there's no disagreement about faith. And I'm like, if there's any disagreement with any communities, it's most likely political.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

It's not, it's not about their faith. It's not about faith communities. There are, there are crazies out there that that do hate Jewish people, that do hate Muslim people because of their faith. But when it comes to when it means that when it comes to between Jewish and Muslim communities, I'm like, it's it's not it's not based on faith. I'm like, a lot of the tensions is legit about Israel, Palestine, Gaza, and yeah, the culmination of those states and like what that looks like going forward and it and the things and the atrocities that have happened. Yes, of course. But and I think, you know, but it's easy for people in the media to just say the Muslims ain't the Jews. Yeah. Because that's an easy statement. Yeah. I don't got you don't gotta talk about the years of history and the complexity of the political relationship.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

So I I really want to thank you because I know that you had a busy schedule and we were trying to have this this discussion for a while. I really admire you as a young man, and I I wish you all the best. And I often say to anyone that is involved in this work that I see myself as a link, a part of a chain. And uh if we look at ourselves like that, we're able to have that strength in working together to combat hate and to advocate for love. Uh any brief closing remarks before we come home?

SPEAKER_01 49:18

Um, I would just like to say thank you, um I'm suffrazed um for having me on SB Life Institute. Um, I want to say thank you for being uh a staunch advocate of conversation.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

I think more conversation is needed for people to because I'm like, it's so easy to get a signbite of me at a protest or something and like create the totality of my conversation. But having longer form um content in order to share my full thoughts is like really, really meaningful and helpful. But I think I'd say like even something like this for young people out there, this is civic engagement.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

You're helping to share a narrative in the world that's not always being put out into the world. Again, engaging looks different for every single person. And I just need every single person out there, every every New Yorker, every American, everyone in the world, engage in your community, work to make your community a better place through your God-given gifts. We all have gifts that are innate to us. Use those gifts for good and better in your community and bettering your own life. And I promise you, you do have a gift. And if you haven't found it, you will find it.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

Thank you so much, and I want to thank all of you for joining um on SB Life Institute Podcast. Um, kindly do not forget to listen to this and all the other episodes. Um, I'm on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts. Uh, please listen, uh, like and share with your colleagues and friends. Peace and love.