How Was I Supposed To Know That?
How Was I Supposed to Know That? is a business podcast hosted by Bernard A. Williams that helps entrepreneurs and business leaders avoid costly mistakes by learning from experienced professionals. Each episode explores legal, financial, operational, and growth-related topics through candid conversations, practical advice, and real-world lessons that every business owner wishes they had known sooner.
How Was I Supposed To Know That?
Why You're Leaving Money on the Table — with Alex Hayes (Boost Pricing)
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Small business owners obsess over revenue — but Alex Hayes, President of Boost Pricing, says that's exactly the trap. In this episode, Alex joins Bernard A. Williams, Esq of Company Counsel LLC to explain why "revenue is a vanity metric," and why profit margin is the number that actually keeps a business alive.
Drawing on 15+ years in sales leadership, Alex unpacks the difference between skill and confidence, why so many owners discount when they don't have to, and how to think about price increases without the fear of losing clients. She shares Boost Pricing's profitability calculator, the "$300-to-$200" discount problem, and why giving work away for free is often better than cutting your rate.
For any professional-services owner — law, marketing, consulting — this is a practical, mindset-shifting conversation about charging what you're worth.
Guest: Alex Hayes, President, Boost Pricing — alex@boostpricing.com. Ask about the book Fearless Pricing.
Why Pricing Leaves Money Behind
SPEAKER_00Hi, welcome to Polish I suppose to know that. This is a podcast that is dedicated to the small business. My name is Bernard Williams, and I am the managing partner of Company Council. We're a law firm located outside of Philadelphia that works with small companies that are in growth mode. They've got big ambitions. They want to do bigger and better things. And my job is to help them from a legal perspective. Now, as I just alluded, one of the things that most small companies care a lot about is revenue. In fact, that may be the most important thing to most of the small companies that I engage with. And they're always looking for ways to increase that revenue, to increase sales, to get more money into the coffers. And they might be very surprised to know that their very actions are leaping a lot of money on the table. So we're going to talk about it today. Alex Hayes is the president of Boost Pricing, and she comes with over 15 years of sales experience. And not only is she excellent at sales and knows sales inside and out, but more importantly, she understands how to help companies to unlock their income potential just by understanding pricing and understanding the value that they bring. So I'm really excited to learn some more from her during this conversation and really pleased to welcome you here today, Alex.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Alex Hayes And The Boost Story
SPEAKER_01It's a pleasure.
SPEAKER_00So let's um why don't we start by? I always love to hear people's origin stories. Yeah. How did you get involved? How did you come to boot to boost pricing? Can you can you tell us that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love sharing this question because my background is sales and I'm currently a president of the company in more of an operator role, which is perhaps unusual. And Bernard, you and I are both familiar with EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system. So my background is sales leadership. I found out about this organization, Boost Pricing, via the founder, Casey, who still works in the business with me. I heard her speak at one point and was so excited and empowered by this message that I had been trying to get across to my team. I understood in the business that I was in that we had opportunity to charge more. There was a disparate, disparate margin even within my team. And I couldn't quite grasp at that time why and how that was happening. And understanding that it wasn't the market that was um helping us charge more in some circumstances, the clients weren't particularly different. Certainly, we were operating with the same products and services, but it was the confidence of the particular team member. And um, so I actually brought in Boost Pricing, the organization, into my team at that time for a training and was able to shake out some of those bad habits enough so that my team was able to gain a little bit of confidence, see that um that they had a little bit more power than they realized, and have really impactful um change on margin. And so I became even more passionate about this idea that um we we as sales professionals, as business owners, as entrepreneurs have so much more power than we realize. Um and during COVID, I had the unique opportunity to learn about EOS, um, see myself really as the integrator that I am, um, and subsequently partner with Casey, our founder, um, as her as her integrator in this business. So um long story to kind of uh tell you about why I'm here, but also why I'm really passionate about what we do.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I love that you began as a client and now you're the president of the organization. That's that's that's that's a wonderful trajectory. Yeah. Um so um so that's a going back to to uh to the time where you were a client and you and you bought it, you brought in boost pricing. Um so you said that you noticed that the people on your team were serving the same uh the market conditions were the same, right? The products were the same, uh, the the prospects were the same, but there were differences in in confidence. What was it, what were you seeing uh that made you think that it was a confidence difference and not just a skill difference or or or maybe like or a luck difference
Confidence Means Communicating Value
SPEAKER_00or you know, or or anything other than like how did you identify it as confidence?
SPEAKER_01It's a good question. And I and I think that we um as a in general, we underestimate the skills needed to be in sales. And so it's reasonable to say certain people need more skills, more skill building to capture more margin, more revenue, really. Um either of those things. And so it's not, I wouldn't say that it's not skills. Um, everybody needs that. I've been doing this for more than 15 years, and I still love learning new sales skills and testing things out. Um and so much of what we do as sales professionals now is part of a process. Um, even if it's not a written, you know, agreed upon process. Most people on the team, in my experience, as when I was a leader, had a process that they followed. Um, they were good at their jobs, they're professional salespeople. So they experienced training um and took it in and tried things. And so I had a great team. I now meet a lot of people who don't. And still, there's so much opportunity when it comes to this aspect of um the confidence isn't just um saying, you know, I'm great, what I do is great. It's more than that. So when I say confidence, what it is is the ability to be able to communicate the value. Why are you great? Why are you excellent at what you do in a way that your competition is not? And if people have the skills to communicate that throughout the entire process, then they do have the confidence. So it's both of those things. With that said, you know, in my experience with my teams, it's it is, it's all it's a little bit of all of those things. Um and also the people that um are willing to try new things, willing, willing to step up and just say, you know what, I don't, I don't have proof yet that this is gonna work, but I'm gonna try it on my next quote, or I'm gonna try it with the next conversation I have. It's kind of the same mindset of pricing. It's like I'm willing to put myself out there, I'm willing to maybe not be liked to try something. And when it works, I'm excited about it. And if it doesn't work, I'm not gonna say I'll never try it again. And that mindset is, I think, what makes great salespeople. Um, but it also is something that makes a huge impact to sales professionals, revenue, and bottom line, if they're the ones setting margin too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. As I'm listening to you, I'm kind of listening through two different lenses, if you will. Um mixed metaphorical work of them. Um as a salesperson, I can see how how having that confidence and that that ability to articulate my value is gonna make a gigantic difference during that consultation or discovery call or sales meeting, whatever it is. Um but um but as an owner, what I I I I wonder if I view things differently. I wonder if I view the metrics differently. I don't, and I wonder if what I'm saying is to increase the close rate, what I need to do is maybe adjust the price uh so that I get um
When Lower Prices Hurt Profit
SPEAKER_00well, so that I get a higher close rate. And maybe that's more important to me than than an individual sale. Uh and I'll maybe I maybe it's better for me to have a higher close rate and a lower margin versus the the opposite. Are those some of the conversations that you get into? And and can you tell me why I'm wrong looking at it that way?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would say yes, and I can't tell you confidently that you're wrong all the time, but I I'm positive you're wrong some of the time. Um and that's and that's the that's the trick of it, right? That's the that's kind of the the what I joke around. That's like that's the sexy part about pricing. It's not just a demand curve where if I charge less, I'm gonna sell more, right? The the nuance of of pricing and the strategy behind it needs to take into account a lot more than just I want to win more, so I'm gonna drop my price, right? Um chief discount officers are usually also cheap CEOs. And and there's a lot of reasons. One is yeah, they want to win. We like winning as entrepreneurs, it feels good, it's exciting, um, and then we're on to the next thing, and our team can execute. Um, and so it's it's better than having the conversations that draw on a little longer or having to explain why people should work with you. And certainly it's better than hearing no. Um, in some situations, on some deals, um, with some clients, everyone is charging the right amount. And in some of those instances, almost everyone I've ever spoken to discounts when they don't have to. And I think that that's really where the nuance comes in, where when I'm speaking to entrepreneurs who are selling um and business founders who are selling, those are often the people that do lean too heavily on the revenue, honestly. Like they want to see those revenue numbers no matter what, um, because that's where candid, that's where your vanity is as a as a founder. But realistically in business, it is vanity. Revenue is a metric of vanity, and it doesn't mean a thing if you don't have a profitable bottom line. Um, you know, you hear all the time I scaled my business from one to 10 million. I don't care if your revenue stayed, like if your revenue grew like crazy, if your profit stayed the same, it doesn't matter. Um, and so that's where your closed metrics can be great. But if you're not doing the math and thinking about, listen, if I can increase margin by 5%, 10%, and lose a little bit more frequently, is that worth it financially? If you're not thinking about that, if you're not doing the math, um, then you're probably missing out and probably on a lot of money, candidly.
SPEAKER_00So for someone like me, for whom math was never my best subject, um, but but but here I am in a position of financial leadership. Uh which um as as the owner of my firm, uh, which metrics are the most important? What should what should be on my on my dashboard to be to be picking about?
SPEAKER_01I love that question. And and it really should, I mean, I I shouldn't say uh I love a more of a leading metric. So um, and this is more putting on my sales hat. So leading indicators, yeah, you should be making the right number of calls. Those calls should lead to the right number of discoveries, and you should have, you know, you should set your close rate depending on your business and what your goals are. All of those things matter. Realistically, though, what you need to be looking at instead of revenue, which is important, of course, you still have to look at revenue and costs. Ultimately, the profit margin is where everything sits after that, right? Um, one of the tools that we have on our website that I wish I would have given you ahead of time, and we can probably link to it later, is we have what's called a profitability calculator. And in that, you can change your numbers. So you can plug in what's your revenue now? What are your cogs? Um,
The Metrics That Actually Matter
SPEAKER_01what's your current margin? And then what happens if you increase by 1%? What does that do to your bottom line? And what happens if you lose 5% of your business when you increase by 1%? What does that do to your bottom line? So it's a fun way to kind of play with that. And what I have seen consistently is salespeople and oftentimes founders that sell that sell um chronically overestimate the amount of business they're gonna lose when they increase price. And so put in your worst case scenario, you know, okay, I'm gonna increase prices across the board by 10%, but I might lose 10% of my clients. Is it worth it? Um and and I think that doing that allows people to to get settled into this idea that they can charge more and are willing to try it, right?
SPEAKER_00Um have you seen people go too far? Uh do you see people overcharge the market? And how do you how do you identify that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'll I'll ask you, how do you identify that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I think realistically, for sure, people go too far. And it and some of it you you do have to look at clothes, right? The thing is, is that um if you're hearing price as the main obstacle, um, then you're just like everybody else. Like it's the easy thing to say is the problem as a as a buyer. Um, and even if the price is what I thought it was gonna be, asking for a discount doesn't hurt. Like I'm always gonna ask for a discount. It's what I do as a buyer. I'm gonna tell you someone else is cheaper. Someone else might be cheaper, but if I'm telling you, it probably means that I'd rather work with you. So so if you think about it this way, um, I'm not as a buyer, I'm not gonna waste my time telling you that you're inferior in your skill set and you're more expensive. I'm just gonna go with the other guy, right? And so if we're not asking deeper questions into what that means when we hear price, then we'll never know. And that's really when I when you ask the question of do I see people who go too far or charge too much? Probably. Um, you have to get pretty consistent data to know that. I mean, if you're not winning enough to make the money you need to make to stay in business, then yeah, you got to make a lot of adjustments. One of those might be price. But um candily is so rare. I mean, I have never worked with a client client-wide and and said, let's try an increase or let's not negotiate a discount, and had them say, Oh, we we failed to capture the ROI on this. They they capture an ROI on a training and development plan because it works, because they weren't charging enough, because they were discounting too frequently. Um, and more often than not, really, what I see is founders, CFOs, even the sales team, know what is possible. They know that they could or should be increasing. Um, and they're scared to do it, or they don't know how, or they're afraid they're gonna lose clients. I had I talked to an entrepreneur, he's a second generation in his business last week, and he said, we we will lose money this year to the tune of millions of dollars if we don't increase by our margins by 5%. I have to. There's
Are You Charging Too Much
SPEAKER_01no question there, right? He doesn't need a pricing strategy to do that. He knows he has to increase by at least 5%, but he doesn't know where to start, and he doesn't think his team can do it. And so that's really like if I if I think about it, that's almost always the problem. It's not the oops, I charged a little too much at that time, right?
SPEAKER_00So for someone like him, what what would you advise where should we start?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, here's the thing in a situation like that, which is key where Boost operates most of the time. I love having these conversations with entrepreneurs and founders, especially in small businesses, because there's so much passion there and opportunity. What Boost does is we work with businesses that have scaled a little bit more, and they're those passionate founders have passed on the responsibility of sales to a team. Um and that team does not have the same excitement around it as the founder and the CEO. And that's okay. They don't need that, but what they do need to know deeply and inherently is the value they provide. Um and they don't have the skills to communicate it. And I would say that's across the board. I have yet to meet a team that cannot improve on the value messaging, asking good questions, and really understanding what the client needs so that the price can support the solution. Um, there's always room for improvement there. And so that's where we start, really, is there has to be other things that tie in. And most business owners are thinking about that. Yeah, we have to cut costs. Yes, I have to say we don't go below X on margin. Um, but they have to set a new expectation, and then they have to give their team resources so that they can level up and meet those expectations. And if you're tackling it from all sides like that, there then it's really hard to lose.
SPEAKER_00That's great. I I um so again again, I just can't help but think about my own experiences and in sales consultations and sort of out in the in the field. Uh and one of the issues that I've come across personally, uh, and I I kind of think this is ubiquitous across other industries. So I I I came from a big law background, right? Where my my my clients during the first part of my career were you know Fortune 100 companies that they're presenting this. And and now and for the past 10 years, my clients have been small companies uh that uh and they're much more limited resources, uh oftentimes they don't even have a legal budget. Uh so um the the fees that I charge or charge on my behalf anyway, when I was uh an associate in Big Law were many times uh more than the fees that I'm charging today as a as the as a partner and an owner of a firm with 25 years of experience. And the the narrative that I tell myself is that it's because the clients are it's because I'm no longer selling to portion of 100 companies, I'm selling to the person that owns the company down the street, which is and I've got to scale everything important. Um is I mean there's a reality to that, right?
SPEAKER_01The you know
Discounts Versus Giving Value Away
SPEAKER_01different markets, different clients um have different, I guess, scales are I'm not sure the right word that I'm searching for here, but yeah, it's a it it's a good um you're going in a really wise direction. So here's the thing is that the ability to see that and understand, and and in in especially in professional services, you have the capability to say, within this business, this is the value that what I can do and provide will bring. And the value at scale for a $3 million business is very different than the value at scale for a $300 million business. Um, and so, you know, entrepreneurs don't get in, don't go into business. Law lawyers don't start their own firms because they know they're gonna make way more money. Oftentimes they are very aware that there's gonna be a different set of responsibility and they might make a little less, but they're gonna have a lifestyle that they like. And so I come at it from two ways too, as an entrepreneur of you're going to you have to make sacrifices knowing when and how and where you can charge more and where you can't. Um, sometimes it's that it's a startup company, they have zero dollars and they're pulling from their personal bank account to pay you, and also they need you and you want to support them. And it's exciting to be part of that. And if someone makes a conscious decision to charge less in a situation like that, I'm not gonna tell them no. What I am gonna say is make sure that company understands the sacrifice you're making because when they grow in scale, your your price can go up, right? Like you're not sedentary in, you know, at uh whatever hourly fee you started with when they started. Um, you can say, listen, this is my normal rate. I'm doing it here for you because I'm passionate about what you're doing and I'm excited for you, so that they can still see the value, right? And that's the that's I think the gap oftentimes with entrepreneurs, especially, is we give things away for free all the time. That's okay. I actually prefer that we when we give things away for free than when we discount, um, because we it's easier to communicate the value of what we would have charged. When we give a discount, it's saying this is actually what it's worth. I hate discounts because if I say, you know, I'm you're $300 an hour, I have no idea what what you charge, but say say you're normally $300 an hour and you come back and you say, you know what, but for you, I'll do it for $200. The thing that goes through my head is your real rate, what you should be charging is $200. What you can charge is $200. What you were gonna charge me was three. So you were trying, you were trying to go too far, right? And that's what we do with everything. It's what we do with clothing, it's what we do with groceries. It's like, well, they're still making a margin on whatever, so I'm never gonna buy this unless it's on sale.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's interesting. I I've often thought that when I've seen different pricing for different clients for the same service.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, like I've I've seen places that have um like small business pricing uh for for for for the same price. And it's the same exact service, the same amount of work, uh, but for a larger company, uh it it's it's yeah, the it's the pay time tax.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and and I don't think that that's wrong. I just wouldn't
Hourly Rates And AI Efficiency
SPEAKER_01publicly post it. A lot of the a lot of the um the riches we Know we say riches are in the niches, right? So if you're thinking about um cross-market selling and you're thinking about really analyzing who you're selling to, the value that you provide is going to be different depending on the client um and their appetite. It's like, you know, they they give a random percent for marketing, like I don't even remember what it is. 10% of your revenue should be a marketing budget. That's totally different for my business than it is for a Fortune 100 company, but that's what you need to create value around marketing. It's kind of the same idea in my mind, is um if we boil it down to a dollar rate that's appropriate for every business, for everybody, then you're undervaluing what you might be providing, um, especially at an hourly rate. And that's a whole different a whole nother podcast because I think that the um the idea of hourly rates, especially for someone who has a lot of experience and a lot of efficiencies and a strong um background of team behind them, their efficiencies turn into um them getting paid less and less and less for the value they're providing because you can provide more value faster. So I'll just sprinkle that in there.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, that may need to be a part two. And then um just talking about how AI is going to change uh the dynamics of our, or it already is changing, has changed the dynamics of RLA building. Um it's a long conversation in and of itself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And and also I'll just say think about it. Think about the efficiencies and where what does that lead to you discounting? Does it lead to you charging more? Um, does it lead to you charging the same and knowing that it's gonna take you less time? Um, I that's if there's an opportunity in any case to say, here's the body of work I'm going to do for you, and this is the price, as opposed to it's gonna take me three hours and here's the price, then lean on the first one. Um because then people aren't, you aren't you don't have to nickel and dime anybody. They don't feel nickel and dimed, they understand the value for what they're getting. Um, and that's across I I any professional services firms we work with, law firms, marketing. Um, you know, it's it's kind of a ubiquitous problem with professional services, um, with efficiencies, especially like AI.
SPEAKER_00Right. You know, a lot of what we've been talking about, I I think has been assuming that we're that the prospect in mind is a brand new prospect to the firm or to the company. Um, we haven't really talked about price increases. Uh is that something that you advise
Price Increases Without Panic
SPEAKER_00on as well?
SPEAKER_01It is, yeah. Um, price increases are um as much difficult internally as they are externally, maybe more difficult internally than they are externally. Um and I mentioned that because people are so afraid. This goes back to the fear, mindset, and confidence. They're so afraid of losing customers with a price increase. And over the last especially six years, um we expect it. We see it, we know what's happening around us. Everything is getting more expensive. So if you're not increasing your price to keep up, then you have already lost so much money. If you have not increased your prices consistently over the last five years, you've left a lot of money on the table. Um, and that's just keeping up with what's going on in the world, right? Um, I usually don't say rely on cost when cost going up when you talk to your clients about price increases, um, talk about the investments you've made, the value you provide, and those kind of things. Um, but there's so little pushback on price increases right now that it's just one of those you can you can very gently communicate a price increase and it goes flying by almost always without a second guess.
SPEAKER_00Does that vary by by profession? And then the reason that I ask is that um if I think about a company like a like a Netflix, uh, who has price increases all the time, we go along with it. We don't cancel our subscriptions necessarily, but but it but you know we it makes us feel a certain kind of way, right? So I I and I don't want my clients feeling that way about me. Yeah, even if they do agree to continue on as clients. I mean, do you think that kind of this acceptance or this um well is it all is it always a reluctance acceptance, or or do is it does it maybe not even matter in some industries if people just it's kind of I will answer that in a couple different ways.
SPEAKER_01One is stop um stop worrying about being liked in business. We're and and I don't say that's just you, I say that to anybody listening, is that like our goal is not to be liked. We don't need to be friends with our clients, we need to be excellent at what we do and provide value to our clients. We want to be a consultant um and trusted by our clients, but it shouldn't matter if they like you, honestly. Um, they would I want them to I want them to want to do business with you. Um, those don't have to be the same thing. And so if your price goes up because you're providing more value, um, and they're like, ah, darn it, but it's totally worth it. That's not so bad, right? And and it's kind of the same. I mean, realistically, it's kind of the same with something like Netflix. It's still like, is it so different? Of like, oh, that's a bummer. And also, it's totally worth it for me to be able to get my shows. And if that's the conversation that people are having in their head of like, oh, I've been getting this for less than I would have paid for it all along, bummer. I'm gonna keep paying for it. You know, it's um that's that's generally what's actually happening. It's not that people are like, oh, suddenly I'm feeling taken advantage of by Bernard and his firm. That's not it. Um, and I never I talk about pricing to your value all the time, and I don't want it to come across as saying businesses should be greedy. There's no room in great business um with um value-driven company value-driven companies to be greedy.
Wins That Build Proud Sales Teams
SPEAKER_01Um, but there's so much room in between those two things with most organizations that are excellent at what they do.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Do you are are there any particular client wins that come to mind or any success stories that that that you'd be able to share?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, you know, one of the things that I will say consistently um happens and most recently has happened with an organization that we have done business with for quite some time. As they make acquisitions and grow their organization um and add more people, they go through our training. Um, and you know, we have quantitative goals. You know, we want to increase people's margins, we want that to be very visible and definable. And that's what a lot of times we're talking about with people in the sales process is getting their ROI on a program. But I think that the thing that really um is more important and a consistent win and continues to be a win and is communicated to us by companies like this is that matters. It's it's an important aspect of it. It's how we make business decisions. But when people are able to walk around and sit and be really proud of the role that they're in in sales, um, you know, whether they're selling legal services or they're selling nuts and bolts and screws, I want people to walk around and say, you know what, I do think what I do and how I provide it is unique and valuable. And it's making a difference for the people I'm selling to. Um so anytime I get communicated in that way with a client, um, to the extent that one of our clients is bringing myself and Casey to their annual sales meeting because they adore us and they want us to be able to meet the team because this team is confident and excited and loves working for their organization, very much in part because of what we are able to provide them, which is the learning and education and ability to communicate their value.
SPEAKER_00That's true. Um, so as you look ahead for for your own company for boost pricing, uh do you have any exciting initiatives on the horizon or anything that you can tell the audience about?
SPEAKER_01Gosh, we're um I'm man, we're working on things all the time. My business partner recently, about a year ago, came out with her book, um, Fearless Pricing. And so
Fearless Pricing Book And How To Reach Alex
SPEAKER_01we've been working on promoting that. And she's a phenomenal keynote speaker. And so that's still in a lot of our focus is getting them the good word out to sales leaders, business owners, and entrepreneurs, um, whether that be our blog, her book, speaking engagements, um, where we can help people see where they can um charge more for the value they're providing.
SPEAKER_00That's great. That's great. I and if people wanted to reach out to you, what's the best way to do so?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, my LinkedIn has been popping up here on the screen. Um also I'm always happy to speak to um anyone, especially about what pricing and um values-driven pricing, and they can reach out to me directly at alex at boostpricing.com.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Alex. Uh so this has been a really, really important conversation. I've really enjoyed talking to you as I always do. Uh, do you have any any parting words you'd like to leave to any small business owners who uh who are listening in and copies you taking notes?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, gosh, I wish I had had planned for that. Um, I have never met an entrepreneur or business leader who can't charge more somewhere in their business. Um so find the place, try it, and and yourself for the value you provide.
SPEAKER_00Well, I really appreciate the value you provided here today and on this podcast. Like I said, really learned a lot and I enjoyed it. So thanks so much, Alex.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Bernard, for having me.
SPEAKER_00Uh, this has been another episode of How Was I Supposed to Net.