Tiffany Joh | U.S. National Development Program (USGA)

In this episode of College Golf Today, host Kelly Okun speaks with Tiffany Joh, an 11-year LPGA Tour veteran, former college coach and now the assistant coach of the U.S. National Development Program at the USGA.

Tiff shares her journey from playing at UCLA and on the LPGA Tour to becoming an assistant college golf coach at Cal State San Marcos, then the University of Southern California. She also dives into the importance of relationships and data when it comes to building trust with her athletes and then effectively helping them improve. She provides some fantastic coaching advice that was passed down to her when she started that all aspiring coaches will enjoy.

Tiff joined the U.S. National Development Program to help pave the way for junior golfers to make the most of their talent and work ethic and support them from their beginning days to hopefully the days they turn professional and beyond.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to College Golf Today, inspiring tomorrow's Coaches and Players, a podcast in partnership with the Women's Golf Coaches Association and Fairway to Green. I'm your host, Kelly Oaken, and a former Division I and professional golfer. We are excited to dive into College Golf's biggest topics with the coaches themselves. We're talking best coaching and recruiting practices, their take on current trends like NIL, and Sage advice for new and aspiring coaches, all straight from

Meet Tiff Joh: From LPGA Tour Star to Developing the Next Generation

SPEAKER_00 0:26

the source. Today we're joined by Tiffany Joe, the assistant coach at the U.S. National Development Program and a former LPGA Tour Star and College Golf Coach. Tiff shares her story from professional golf to coaching at the Division 2 and 1 levels before joining the USGA in their initiative to build a path for U.S. golfers to succeed at every level. The players are so lucky to have Tiff's energy and wisdom during their development. Tiff, thank you so much for joining us today. You've had such an amazing golf career and it's brought you back into the game as a coach. Can you tell us a little bit more about your time on the LPGA and where golf has taken

Tiff's LPGA Experience

SPEAKER_00 1:01

you to now?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Yeah, you know, I think growing up playing golf, I was never the kid that knew from the start that she wanted to play on tour. I was kind of like, let's just see where it goes. And so being on tour was never particularly a dream of mine, but it became a dream as I kind of got closer and closer to it. But, you know, it's funny because now that I'm a little bit older and a lot of the guests that we invite onto our webinars or our national junior team monthly calls, they're all players that I played against or formed relationships with on tour. And to be honest, I think that's the thing that sticks out to me the most about my time out there. I couldn't tell you what I finished in any given tournament. I couldn't tell you about any of the shots that I hit, but I do remember about some of the relationships that I made out there. And they're relationships that I still hold very dear to me today. So I think that's kind of the biggest takeaway for me. And I think as I transitioned into being a coach, that's something that I kind of keep at the forefront of my mind, how important perspective is to keep while you're playing it, especially a game that's as hard and as frustrating as golf is, to keep that perspective, right? That in 20 years, when you're like old and your back doesn't move like it used to like mine, a lot of the things that you're gonna remember as important are the things that you don't really think are important in the moment. And so yeah, I wish I could give you more about golf perspective-wise about my time on tour, but uh I honestly can't remember a lot of it.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Honestly, I'm in a similar boat and I didn't even reach your level. I was on the level below, but it's the people and the experiences that still stand out to me now. And I also have the same back issues. So I feel you on that too. It's like a golfer thing, I think. I

Transitioning From Player to Coach

SPEAKER_00 2:44

think so too. And what inspired you to go back into coaching and stay in golf once you were done playing?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Well, I think that for me, as much as I didn't know that playing golf was gonna be in my future as a kid, like I knew that coaching was gonna be in my future when I was playing. So I think, you know, the whole time that I played college golf and I think about like I played for Coach Carrie Forsyth at UCLA and Alicia, who's now the head coach at UCLA. And those two made such an impact on me that I knew that I wanted to go into college golf coaching for sure. I just think that's such an important part of your life, right? Like an important portion of your development. It's when you're away from your folks for the first time, you're doing things on your own. And I think you really grow a ton as a human then, and at least I did in college. So I knew that was a direction that I wanted to go. So it's funny, I probably should have retired in 2019, but I ended up playing through 2020 and 2021. And actually in 2020 with COVID, we actually started playing a lot quicker than other sports organizations because you know, the reasoning was it's outdoors, you're kind of social distancing anyway. So we ended up actually traveling internationally the latter part of that year. And I think the big thing that stuck out to me, and I think COVID kind of accelerated everyone's plans or everyone's vision or everyone's perspective on their life. And for me, I realized, wow, when you as much as I love golf, when you take out the social aspect, the part where you stay with all your friends and you have dinner with them every night, when you take out that aspect, I actually didn't really like it very much. And so that kind of just I knew I wanted to go into coaching, but that actually just accelerated my decision. So I ended up making 2021 my last year. And I was actually interviewing for different assistant coaching jobs throughout the first part of the year. And then I want to say in Dallas, I interviewed for the Cal State San Marcos assistant coaching job. And then the very next week I got it, and that week I announced my retirement. So it was kind of a I knew it was what I wanted to do. And then when it happened, I just kind of I didn't draw out the retirement or anything. It was pretty much, I think this is where I'm headed. So I'm gonna go ahead and get started now.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

The perseverance, it just keeps going

Recruiting in Division II vs. Division I as a Coach

SPEAKER_00 4:59

for sure. And Cal State San Marcos is a division two school, and you obviously played division one at UCLA. Did you notice any differences when you switch divisions and also just as an assistant coach versus a player?

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Yeah, I mean, I think to be honest, the assistant coach is a great jam. You just get to be the buddy, you get to be like the support system. You rarely have to make really tough decisions that are, you know, like taking off a bunch of different players. You kind of get to be the in-between. So I was really fortunate because for me, that's a great role for me. And as far as the division two, division one, I mean, like Cal State San Marcos is like probably a top 10 division two program. We actually played in one division one women's golf tournament while I was there, and the girls 100% held their own. So I always tell this, you know, especially now when we're interacting with some state team players or grant recipients or really any junior golfers that I end up kind of connecting with, I tell them not to write off division two, division three, and AIA because it's not so much the division as it is like where you're gonna get to play and where you're gonna get to develop as a player. And, you know, there's one girl I coached, Madison Murr, who just turned professional. So it's not like other sports where there's a draft or anything. Everyone gets thrown into the same, you know, circus that is Q-school. So whatever you think is gonna get you ready for that, go there. If you're gonna go to a Division I school, but you're probably not gonna play very much, that's probably not the right environment for you to grow and develop as a player. So I think everyone, especially in golf, everyone has their own pace and their own rate of development. And you need to go where you're you're gonna be able to be nurtured the most, right? So it's not so much the division as the environment that you're gonna be in. And I think, you know, if I could do it all over again, I love playing at UCLA, but one thing that I will say about a lot of division two athletes that I've talked to is you do get more of a balance there, right? Because of the way that Kira works. You don't get as much, you know, mandatory practice time or anything. So there is room to explore other things. So I definitely tell a lot of the junior golfers I talk to to never write out Division II, Division III, NAIA, especially nowadays. Cause I mean, you look at what Emory University is doing on the women's side and they're just killing it. And I think learning to win is also a really important thing to learn as a college golfer. So I definitely am glad I had that experience at the division two level, just because I grew just a massive respect for the players that that come out of that.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah, I love hearing that. I didn't know much about division two either when I was going through recruiting. And I feel like it's like the middle child. I feel like people look at division one and division three, but no one really looks at division two. And so thank you for shedding some light on it. Cause I think it's still a great option to compete and, like you said, learn to win. And I know some of the division one chaos that is happening right now with NIL transfer portal roster limits, that's starting to trickle down. Is that in division two at all?

SPEAKER_01 8:06

No, I mean, at least uh I mean, when I was at San Marcos, that hadn't even come on the page yet. So I don't think it is. And to be honest, you know, it's happening a lot in golf, but not as much as other sports, right? So I think in the next five to 10 years, it could get even crazier.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

So just mentally preparing myself for all of that. Perfect. And you coached at the University of Southern California as well. As an assistant coach, did you take part in recruiting or was that mostly with the head coach? And did that look different between the two divisions?

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Yeah, I definitely took part in it, but it was at, you know, the advice or whatever that Justin, the head coach at SC, was saying. But I think I learned a lot about recruiting from him because I think at CalSate San Marcos, it was a little bit different, right? It was kind of a smaller scope. You were kind of looking very locally, looking to see really those kids that were kind of under the radar. And you were kind of trying to really sell them on this idea of why being at a top-tier Division II school was gonna be better than being maybe at a division one school that never really made it to nationals, right? So that was part of our big blurb that we would always say. We would always say, sure, you're good enough to go to this division one school, but going to regionals, nationals, and being competitive, that's a big part of it. And that's probably why I'm a little bit brainwashed now about, you know, beauty of going to a division two school. But at a division one school, it's a little different, right? Your recruiting travel is taking you all over the country, sometimes all over the world. You end up doing a lot more travel. It feels like the stakes are a little bit higher. There's a lot more, you know, what's that coach looking at? Should I look at them too? And there's nothing that freaked me out more than being at a high-level invitational at an AJGA event or something and seeing 20 college coaches following one group and being like, wait, should I be over there? It's kind of the equivalent of living in LA and seeing why there was a long line and just standing in there. So I think the stakes are higher. You really have to do your homework, you really have to do your research. And then on top of that, it's a little bit stricter with when you can talk to recruits. So the recruiting rules get stricter as you go from division two to division one. So you got to just be a lot more mindful of those things as well. So it did feel a little bit more nerve-wracking, the recruiting process. And then also recruiting trips, right? Scheduling official visits. I think when I was at San Marcos, we never had official visits. We brought a couple athletes on campus for an unofficial and got a chance to talk to them, but we were never doing the thing where we brought them for multiple days and, you know, took them to a game and did all that. So it just definitely felt like the stakes were a lot higher at the Division One level.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Yeah, that's so interesting. I had no idea.

Relationships + Data = Trust + Growth

SPEAKER_00 10:54

I know you've switched out of college golf right now, but when you were in it, who are you looking up to and what were you trying to learn from them?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

I mean, well, I learned a ton from working for Justin Silverstein at USC. And I think to be honest, when I came on board, so so Justin and Coach Zambri are very closely tied because Justin was Coach Zambri's assistant on the men's side before he became the women's head coach. And so that was kind of my connection to Coach Zambri. But those two, if you've talked to them, are very data-based and they're very data-driven. And to be honest, as a player, I was never like that. So working for Justin and now working for Coach Zambri, they really opened my eyes to this idea of looking at the data, letting it drive your decision making and just, you know, what they do with the amount of testing that they do. That's something that I didn't do as a player, and I wish I did now. So that's a couple of coaches that I really look to on that side. And then from Alicia and Carrie Forsyth, who I played for at UCLA, I really learned about the importance of relationship building, right? And you need both to be a great coach. You need the data and all the analytics to kind of really help you confirm your decisions. And because sometimes golf and development in golf can be like you're on a freeway and you're trying to avoid all the wrong exits and take the right ones. There's just so much information out there that it can be really easy to just go down a rabbit hole and end up in a place, you know, either golf swing-wise or putting or chipping-wise where you don't really want to be. And so it is important to have data to help you drive those decisions. But as a coach, it's really important to have the foundation of a relationship so that when you are giving the information, at least the player trusts you, right? So I think those are four people that I've really learned a lot from as far as coaching.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Oh, yeah, I wish I had that as well. That sounds like the perfect balance.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

So I I don't know if you know a lot about Coach Zambri and Justin and the amount of testing they do, but they have all these different like ball striking tests, like putting simulated round tests. And one test for ball striking is how well you keep your irons online, and then one is uh a prediction, which is how well you know your full carry numbers, and then another one is a random, which is just 20 random distances, and you're trying to keep it online while taking yardage off of full shots or hitting full shots. So it's the most like golf where I'll be like, okay, Kelly, like I need a 97-yard shot, and then you hit it, and then I just measure your proximity. So we have all these tests, and you know, I look back to when I was at USC. I actually, my first year got to coach against Carrie Forsyth, who's the coach I played for at UCLA. And Justin had heard me kind of bad mouth my game in college. And so he went over to Carrie and he was like, I gotta, I need to know the real story. What was Tif Joe's game like in college? And she said, it's so weird. She was actually a pretty good ball striker, but she just started going down like all these rabbit holes, trying to see different swing instructors, trying to fix things that maybe didn't even need to be fixed. And that's why data and stats are important. People think it's to tell you what you need to work on, but it's actually a lot of it is to tell you what you're already good enough at. So you know not to mess with it. Because golf is still so mysterious in a lot of ways. So if you find something that you do at an elite level, it is so important to protect it, right? And I remember I'd be on tour and the temptation is so great. It'd be like, who's Nelly working with? Who's standing next to Lydia Cole? I think I should ask him to look at my swing. And if you have some kind of data that tells you, nope, don't touch this, don't let anyone touch this. Like it's a safer way to start going about figuring out what you can risk tweaking in your game, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Yeah, it's the first time I've heard data explained like that. So thank you for sharing that perspective.

Understanding the Mission of the U.S. National Development Program

SPEAKER_00 14:37

And so in 2024, the USGA launches the US National Development Program. You come on with Coach Zambri as the assistant coach. What is that program all about and what inspired you to join it?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

So the funniest thing was Coach Zambri's call to me when he was trying to gauge my level of interest was, yeah, Tip, I know you really like surfing and you really like tacos. And Heiner's doesn't really have either of those. But would you be interested in trying to interview for this job? And to be honest, like the biggest, besides the fact that it was the USGA and I've always felt like a part of that family, the biggest draw was Coach Zambri. You know, I had never really spent a lot of time with him, but just from working with Justin at SC, I was just so compelled to work for him and learn things from him. So that was the biggest draw. But to be honest, growing up, and you know, I'm sure you experienced this as well whenever you met junior golfers from other countries and they would talk about the amount of support they got from their federation, right? So you would play with a kid from Spain and they'd be like, oh no, my federation handles that. And I remember as a junior golfer being so frustrated, like we're, you know, this huge country with so many talented golfers. Like, why don't we have something like that? Why do we feel like we're completely on our own, right? So that was, you know, when they first even floated the idea of having a development program in the US, I was just dying to be a part of it. So aside from the Zambri portion, I was just so excited that something was happening. And then, of course, you know, Mike Wan is at the USGA and he's kind of the one that first started all of this. And a lot of it was because of his time at the LPGA and seeing how the US women were kind of falling further and further behind other countries. And so I know that was one of his goals when he came over to the USGA to get something started that was comparable to other nations and the federations for golf that they had.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah, I love it. And from what I can tell, it's like a roadmap for junior golf. Is that correct? Is that the right way to look at it? It's a way for junior golfers to, if I don't know how they're chosen or identified, but certain golfers are able to go through this program and have great opportunities to compete and develop their games and just have great resources.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

That's probably when you talk to any junior golfer and their family nowadays, that's probably the biggest point of contention, right? They're like, we feel like we have to fly all over the country to get stars or to get recruited by colleges or for anything. And there's so many junior golf tours out there that it can be really intimidating, especially if you don't have a kid that's already come through the junior golf ranks, right? So, you know, we look at what our state team program is doing. I think we're gonna have 31 state teams on board by the end of 2026 or something. Don't quote me on that. I'm not really sure if that's super accurate. But then with that, and then you know, the grant recipient program, which is, you know, if you're a junior golfer from the lower income family and you pass all the financial requirements and the USGA will give your family a grant of up to $15,000 to pay for junior golf. So ideally, you know, five, six years down the road, there'll be like a pipeline, right? So if you're a good local junior golfer from, you know, LA or San Diego, you'll, you know, hopefully make your Southern California state team. And then, you know, from there, as you progress even more, you'll make the national junior team. And then if you go to college and you continue along the same track, you'll be on our elite, you know, am team. And then as you turn pro, the US NDP will help support you as you're a young pro. Like ideally, there will be a pipeline that takes you step by step as you transition from one level of golf to the next.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Well, don't you wish you had that?

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yes, I know. And it's funny because now, you know, I have a couple friends from tour that are, you know, I have one that's the captain for the Massachusetts state team, and we have one that's coming on board for well, so Mo Martin, she was the state team captain for Southern California, and now she's our West regional coach. But I can't tell you how many times we just sit there and we're like, hey, this would have been nice.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

So you mentioned Mo. It slipped my mind that she went to UCLA too, but she was the one that told me when I was playing it's the experiences and the people you're with. Every time you're on tour for a week, go out and experience something fun because that's what you're gonna remember, not the scores or the tournaments. So a little full circle here.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

It is maybe the most cerebral, like wisest, kind human being I've ever met. And she's been so great with the juniors and and you know, selfishly, I love having her around more.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

So yeah, she's fantastic.

Selecting Junior Golfers for the State and National Teams

SPEAKER_00 19:23

And I'm curious, how do you identify these junior golfers that are gonna go into the program? And is it similar to college recruiting where you're trying to find someone for your team, or how does that all work?

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah, so I came in a little bit later. So ironically, Mo was actually with the program longer than I was because I came in on their second year. But I know the first year they put the team together, it was pretty much based almost solely off of rankings and resume and all that. And you had to do that, right? Because we're a brand new program. Even now, I still feel like we're trying to build up our street cred with the junior golfers. So back then it was you needed to have the blades brown on the team. We needed to have, you know, Asterisk Tally on the team, right? And then, you know, we kind of started getting a little bit outside of that to more who needs the resources that we can provide and also has the potential to be a great professional golfer in eight years, right? So now we're kind of striking more of a balance, but it's still, you know, it is still based a lot off of, you know, your tournament finishes and your rankings. But that being said, you know, in the future we'll probably start looking more towards the state teams and who's doing really great things as part of a state team. And then as far as the grant recipients, you know, we have the first part is they have to fulfill that financial requirement. And then from there, yeah, we are looking a little bit off of rankings, but you know, also just their story, right? So it's a whole process, but it makes me feel better when I look at the team of people around me and how thoughtful they are and and how much they know about not only golf, but just about golf development. So there's a lot of brains going into that decision making.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

So it sounds perfect. And I know you had a camp recently too, I think just last week. How was that? And what was the purpose of it?

SPEAKER_01 21:10

It was great. And you know, it's it's funny because whenever it was at Desert Mountain in Phoenix. So a lot of the kids, I mean, we had one girl from Kansas and one girl from Ohio, one girl from, you know, Maryland. Like there's a lot of kids that haven't really been able to go outside in the last month and a half. But it was a great opportunity just to get all the kids together in one place. So a lot of it was running them through some of the testing that Coach Zambri likes to do periodically just to see, you know, exactly what I talked about, right? What do you do at an elite level? So we know that if someone is an elite putter and they come to us and they're like, think about switching to the claw grip. We could be like, okay, hunt the brakes. You're actually a really good putter. So before we do that, let's, you know, let's think about this. So a lot of that is testing, but a lot of it is just time together. So this one, we actually we have a little friendly match against Sweden. In a month. So this one we actually had a qualifier where we tried to figure out the lineup for what Sweden would be. And a lot of that is to prepare them for college golf, right? So I think it would be easy to be like, all right, we're going to get you guys all in. It's going to be sunshine and rainbows. But no, we want them to prepare for qualifying when they go to college. So that was one part of it. And it's funny because I think selfishly, because we get so many limited touch points with a lot of these athletes because they're all over the US. Sometimes we get sucked into the temptation of trying to just squish as many activities as we can. Cause, you know, we want to teach them about the importance of, you know, physical and psychological health and drinking water and having electrolytes. And we also want to teach them the importance of building relationships with each other and developing and goal setting and all that stuff. But at the end of the day, like it's so important for them to just get time together where they're playing pickleball or playing Uno. So we try to strike a balance. And I don't know how well we're doing so far, but Coach Zambri is really great about introducing in little bits of education. So this particular one, we had a session where we talked about what kind of notes you should be taking in a practice round, right? If you look at the average junior golfer right now and you ask him to open up the yardage book, it's completely blank. But they should be writing not just targets off the T, but also, you know, they should be, you know, you played at a higher level where you're trying to predict where they're going to put pins and you're trying to figure out, okay, long to this pin would really stink. Maybe I put a note there. Or maybe if this part five is reachable and two, this bunker's not so bad. Those are all notes that the junior golfers should be writing, and a lot of them aren't. So we had one session where we talked about that and then had the play of practice round, kind of applying what they just learned. We actually had another thing where we talked about etiquette when you're playing with a tour player, right? So, you know, the AJJ and actually a lot of junior golf organizations, they encourage the junior golfers to play fast. So it gets them in the habit of doing things like, you know, putting down a ball when someone else is tapping out or walking to the next T and hitting when someone is still finishing and things like that. But, you know, you and I both know that tour players are notoriously more sensitive about sounds and where you're standing and all that. I mean, I think we all have a story about being a junior golfer playing in a US Open qualifier with a pro and maybe, you know, getting our faces ripped off or something, right? So it was important to us to have a little 15, 20 minute session where we talked about what is a through line and why shouldn't you step in it, things like that. And a lot of these, especially these players at the national junior team level, are probably gonna play a tour event as an ambater in the next year or two. I mean, Mason Howell is gonna play in the masters. So it was important for us to kind of start to introduce them to like how much more mindful and you know aware you need to be when you're playing with a tour professional. So it's just things like that we like to sprinkle in throughout the camp.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

I love that. There's so

Advice for New and Aspiring Coaches

SPEAKER_00 24:57

much to learn. And really, my last question for you is what advice would you give to up-and-coming coaches or new and aspiring coaches that might want to enter the college space or the USNDP space, anything in the junior golf realm?

SPEAKER_01 25:09

I'm gonna give another shout out to our bestie Mo Martin, because she, when I first started coaching, she actually encouraged me to look into a lot of the stuff that Coach Val, who's this legendary gymnastics coach from UCLA, she told me to look into some of the TED talks she had done, some of the books she had written. And the biggest thing that kind of stood out to me was she said, don't try to be what you think a coach should be, just be yourself and coach. And I think for me that really resonated because I'm a little bit of a goofball. So I think for me, going into it, I thought, okay, I have to really, I have to really walk in, right? I just have to be more of an adult. I have to be, you know, more direct and I have to, you know, really stand my ground. And if that's not your personality, there's other ways that you can communicate. So I think the important thing is to not change who you are, but just try to coach the best you can from who you are. So that's that's all I got.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

That's amazing. And gotta love Mo.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

She's so good. She's just like this onion of wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

And every time I feel back a layer, I'm like, oh yeah, she's just more wisdom. Osamulta, thank you so much for joining us. Really enjoyed our conversation and can't wait to share it with everyone. I know everyone's gonna love it too. Awesome. Thanks, Kelly. It was great talking to you.