Chaos and Conviviality's First Call for Submissions

On this episode of Chaos and Conviviality, Dip and Scooter discuss the Chaos and Conviviality’s open call for submissions.

See time stamps below:

• 0:40: Call for submissions
• 9:25: Discussing the theme
• 14:00: Honorarium details
• 15:10: Building the C&C universe/community
• 16:15: Tips for submitting
• 20:40: Our dreams for this issue

Please see the call for submissions here. If you have questions, you can reach us at chaosandconviviality@proton.me.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Hey y'all, I'm Dip. And I'm Scooter. And this is Chaos and Conviviality.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

This is a show where we discuss current events in culture with an eye towards liberation.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

And we come from a radical perspective that is anti-capitalist, anti-statist, and eco-trans feminist.

Call for submissions

SPEAKER_01 0:41

This podcast will outline our call for submissions, detail what we're looking for, and answer some questions we've been getting about our recently released call for submissions. To start, this is not your normal call for submissions. We're looking to build a media project from below, and that means that at our core, we want multiply marginalized folks involved in this project. We want to build more than just a place to submit work. We want to build a creative community where folks have a place to work towards radical, autonomous, decolonial, youth liberationist, disability liberationist, and transfeminist ends. The call in particular is looking for unpublished articles, essays, illustrations, drawings, paintings, comics, photos, poems, creative nonfiction, fiction, journal entries, one act plays, interviews and conversations, reviews, whether it's a review of film or TV, music, theater books, games, hybrid forms of any, you know, mix of these things I'm describing, really whatever you can imagine being printed on a page. We're gonna link the call for submissions if you haven't already seen it. We're gonna put it in the show notes. Um, but you can submit your full drafts, which are would be ideal for us, but we can also take sketches, pitches, excerpts. What I mean by exert is just like a less than 500 word section from the work and a power paragraph that explains its place in the hole. But you can submit you know your work in whatever form it looks like in progress.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yeah, and I think the main thing is that for everything that's not a full draft, right, we want to kind of ensure that your pitches give us enough to know that you can do what it is you're trying to do, right? Like we want to be flexible, we want to be open, we understand that like a lot of y'all might encounter this close to or rubbing up against the deadline or something like that. And we don't want it to feel like, oh my God, I have to pull together if you're writing a short story, you know, like 5,000 words in next few days or whatever, and have it be polished and good enough to be, you know, accepted in a publication. And so, yeah, basically for people who are doing more pitch-esque things, whether that's an excerpt, whether that's a sketch, quote unquote, or it's like a pitch proper, uh, we definitely want to hear about like what is the hook, right? Or like the context that makes whatever you're writing about or creating interesting. And again, that's vague, kind of on purpose. Like, as long as it's interesting to you and you can show that passion, it'll probably be interesting to us, even if it, and maybe especially if it's not something we've thought about before, right? Um, and then we want to also hear about, so that's the first thing, hook context. We also want to hear about like the focus, right? So, like, you know, what is the format it's gonna be? Is it going to be, you know, in whatever mediums we kind of just talked about? Is it gonna explain something to us? Is it gonna investigate something with us or for us? Is it gonna be a profile on something, like a dossier, you know? Is it analysis? Is it solutions, right? Like all that kind of stuff. Like, what is the kind of shape it's gonna take? What is it taking that shape around or about? Who are the kind of characters in that drama, so to speak? And then what is the kind of angle you're coming at it from, right? Um, and we especially like things that are more like accountability-oriented at a minimum, but ideally like solutions-oriented. So thinking about like, you know, how will it describe the issues that it's talking about or thinking through. Again, who are those kind of characters that'll be focused on that are impacting that issue, right? So, like if you wrote a piece about like your city government passing some ordinance or something, we want to hear about like your awareness of who the people who are in that committee that that ordinance was, you know, like however the kind of structure works. You want to hear about those people very specifically, right? And then what those actions do or don't do to like address the issue or respond to it, right? So that's kind of the second part or third part, I guess. And then like we also want to hear more about just like how you plan to achieve the thing that you're pitching about, right? So, like, can you again can you actually do what it is you're planning to do? You know, what resources will you use in order to learn more, to be able to explain more? What specific aspects of the kind of topic and focus will you zoom into? You know, how will you make sure that like impacted people? This is a big part, especially if you're doing like reporting style stuff. Like, how are the people who are impacted by the bad things? Like, how are they given a voice to speak? Right? Like, how are they highlighted in this work? And then we also want to hear, like, you know, we don't want you to come have picked ideas. Um, we're really gonna do a lot of work to support you and like develop things, but we also want to know that like you're interested in this work and that there's actually a story there. And so ideally, like you've done some preliminary research, you kind of have an idea of the space that you're talking about, right? And you're able to kind of talk about those preliminary, that preliminary work coherently. So we feel like you, you know, we want to feel that you're like confident about like your ability to execute this, right? And then given that we are, you know, doing a like magazine style, given that this ain't gonna come out for a long time, right? Like we're kind of thinking, you know, spring is maybe when this issue will come out, and we're asking for it in the summer of the year before. So it should not be about stuff that's going on right now in this kind of very um breaking news kind of way. We want stuff that like feels relevant, you know, could be relevant in a year, right? And so it should be kind of timely. It should, you know, it's not bad if it feels like it's of this moment because it's being made in this moment. But we also want to kind of think of something that's more like evergreen or timeless, right? Like, you know, trying to kind of strike the balance between those two things. So maybe don't go overly philosophical or abstract unless you're really good at that and can pull it off really well and impressively. But also, again, don't be so focused on the now that it feels like breaking news that won't be breaking news in a year, if that makes sense, right? So if you're trying to think of like what this might look like, again, we kind of are, you know, we're not only doing news-related things, but we are kind of news oriented. So this might look a lot like, you know, if you've ever read like a feature in like a magazine or a newspaper, right? Where it's like a little bit extended, right? Like it feels like you're spending more time with a topic than just breaking news. That's kind of what we're looking for. And so all of that stuff, I know that was a lot, just like the different forms you could take is a lot. Like the different forms you could make something is a lot. But um, I think hopefully that feels really clear as to like, and all this again is on the site is in the submissions page if you're more of a visual kind of person. But like if you include all those pieces, then you will have done so much work in order to make sure that you can like not only convince us that you can do what you're pitching, but like you convince yourself that you could do it because you've done all the kind of building blocks already, right? And yeah, that whole process is you know pretty much lifted from 15 West, which is a really great uh independent, community-oriented journalism publication out here in Chicago. And so, yeah, I think I think just thinking about that stuff is really critical for pitches, right? If you're not doing a full draft to us.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Thanks for sharing that. So, just a couple notes for those that are submitting full drafts. We would like to see drafts that have been revised. Um, if there's a bunch of typos or craft issues, it's not gonna be ready for us. You might be better off sending a refined exert pitch or sketch. Um, when I say a craft issue, I just kind of mean, you know, like if it's an essay, you know, narrative issues, you know, it's uh, you know, maybe it's disjointed. Like we we want you to edit those things and get those out before you send them to us, ideally. But, anyways, this prioritization, um, we're prioritizing full drafts. Um, and this this is practical. This um the more developed the works that we're bringing in, the more generative and less time crunched the editing process will be. So very excited about full drafts. Whenever you submit, please be sure to remove any identifying information from the files. This helps to enable anonymous review while still allowing us to put a name to the work later in the submission form. To be clear, this means that we should not see your name or handle anywhere in the name of the document or its content. All we need is the name of the piece as the file name. Please feel free to do simultaneous submissions unless you're pitching or sending an excerpt. Just make sure that you let us know if you're accepted elsewhere as soon as possible. Given that we're doing a unique submissions process on the back end, failing to mention acceptances makes our lives harder, so you appreciate open lines of communication. We'd also appreciate if you only send us one submission form. If your work has multiple components or is a hybrid piece, we should not get multiple copies of the form from you. Lastly, please read all the requirements before submitting. If you don't, we will not be able

Discussing the theme

SPEAKER_01 9:25

to consider your work for publication. But now we want to get to the kind of the fun stuff. Um so, Dip, I'm gonna have I would like you to lead off with this. Um, you obviously came off came up with the theme for the issue. Can you walk us through the theme and what you're thinking?

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah, no, I would love to. And so the theme for this issue is capture. And so this is something I've been thinking about like a lot. I know there's like a book that people really like called Elite Capture, and kind of talks about how like identity politics, which is a word that people love to use but don't understand, has been kind of co-opted by you know neoliberal capitalism, or have you want to kind of label the you know, DEI oriented, uh progressive quote unquote, maybe it is progressive, I don't know. Um, wing of you know higher class people, whether that's like professional managerial folks, and up, right? So people like Kamala Harris, for example, right? Or like Obama, for example, at the kind of upper upper upper echelons of what I'm kind of describing, right? So this word a capture, I think, has been really like really interesting to me for a long time. And in my kind of mind, that's kind of a funny way to start though, because in my mind, um, I think something we're really interested in building more of a kind of um beat around and building more of like the conversation around within the kind of CNC extended universe, if you want to put it like that, is like the how we relate to industrialism or industry and technology. And then you can also throw some science in there if you want to get real, like in the weeds with it. But like capture kind of to me describes all those things, right? Technology, industrialism, science with things like whether it's surveillance technologies, whether it's you know, if you work in an industry, which means you have a job, or if you don't have a job, you have to be able to relate to things that are trying to or are succeeding at capturing your time, right? So there's like all these kind of different ways this idea shows up. And like kind of using that concept of capture in an expansive way to really think about how things are made, how we interact with, you know, to use a Marxist term, commodities, um, and like the ways in which we relate to those things, no matter what our positionality is across kind of the like within the realm of like being people who are exploited, right? So, like whether you are, again, like, you know, you're a data labeler, so you're one of those people who trawls through raw information in order to make sure AI doesn't immediately start skewing whatever the raw internet would give it, which is mostly racism and bigotries of other kinds, whether you're someone working at Google who's like, you know, crying because you feel really guilty about powering the AI, like building the systems for the AI or whatever, um, even though you're still working there, which is like a question mark for me. But anyway, um basically, I'm really interested, and we're really interested in like this idea of again how like we are captured as exploited people and how that capture happens, right? And again, I kind of just gave you some big ideas that we're thinking of industry, technology, platforms, but it doesn't have to be that in a kind of you know strict way, right? Like I have, I think there's very obvious aesthetics and sensibilities that come with that, right? Like, you know, you think of big factories, you maybe think of the late 19th century or early 20th century, you maybe think of Silicon Valley, you maybe think of, you know, I don't know, right? Like there's all these different pieces that maybe immediately pop into mind. But like if you can get that same essence from a different vibe, then I think that that is we're like really flexible with that as well. Um, and so yeah, like we don't want to be restrictive, like we don't want to kind of limit what folks do. This is meant to like send you in a direction that's generative, right? Like it's not meant to say like we want pieces specifically about gig workers working at Uber doing right, like like that's not really what we're asking for. We're asking for really expansive stuff that can include that and it'd be awesome if it included that. But like however y'all are inspired by this prompt is kind of what we're coming at it from.

Honorarium details

SPEAKER_01 14:04

I could talk a little bit about the specifics around the honorarium we can pay for this. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

That'd be awesome.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

So I'll I'll hit the high level. We you know, this is all on the web page, and the specifics for you know the different mediums are on the webpage. Um, in short, each accepted submission will receive at least 200 bucks and at most 500 bucks. That is US dollars. We are based in the Turtle Island, United States. So as such, we're we're gonna pay via Venmo or Cash App for those that can take that. Um, we'll pay at the time of publication. Um, for those unable to receive payment that way, you know, for example, those you know, we're hoping to get people submitting internationally. We'll work with you to send that in a way that works for you. So if we if we do indeed publish your work, um please be sure to wait until after the next issue releases before submitting again. If you don't want to wait, you can send pitches to us that once that system goes live. Um, this is because we want to ensure that we're always giving new folks time to shine. Um, but we would also you know love to build ongoing relationships with folks. You

Building the C&C universe/community

SPEAKER_01 15:10

know, alongside this, one of the things we want to do is we want to build this collective, you know, the CNC universe, as Dip was saying. Um and so we're looking for people who want who would want to contribute to this budding community. To this end, we ask that folks that don't have the interest in contributing to this community search for opportunities elsewhere. To give an example of what this could look like, we imagine that um folks could, you know, on the more intensive end, host a workshop or Skillshare for the space on one of the skills or gifts that they have. For example, if you know how to file a freedom of information request and you paint, you could maybe host a FOIA as art session for folks. On the lighter end of things, you know, of contributing to the collective, maybe you're reposting the announcement of that same event to your community and your network. Ideally, you know, the people that were are getting accepted into this, you know, the pieces accepted into this specific uh magazine will be you know tending towards the more intensive idea, the contributions to the community versus the passive, but that's you know, that's a aspiration, right?

Tips for submitting

SPEAKER_02 16:15

And I kind of want to talk a little bit more about like some tips for submitting. And you can again, because we are maybe too much in this direction, but like we are like, even if you don't land here, we want you to be able to land, right? Like if you're someone who's submitting things, so like you probably don't want to just do that one time and never do it again. So here's some ideas we have as to like how that process can go well. Biggest thing is to like read the submissions page, whether it's us or wherever else, is like read it closely. Don't kind of just like, oh, I get the highlights, I'm gonna boom. Because like the details in there are often very intentional. If you need to do more active activity rather than just like reading the screen, maybe you print it out or turn it into a PDF and like get a highlighter and a marker, and like what are keywords that are popping up in this, right? Like, maybe that's a little bit doing too much, but I know that can be helpful to make it feel more like an activity rather than like a chore, you know? And like this is really important, not just because oh, we put effort into writing it, so we want you to read it, like whatever. I don't really care about that, or we don't really care about that in a general sense, I don't think. But like people are often rejected because of not being willing to like read all the instructions, you know. Don't be one of those people. It's like we again, this is I'm not gonna say it's easy, but it's like easier to like read all that stuff and then submit your stuff than to just submit and not really even know who or what you're submitting about or for, you know. Another thing is do research into the editors. Who are the people putting these issues together, right? Like who's the people? I mean, for this, you know, you're talking to a couple of those people right now or listening to them, I guess you're not really talking to us. Maybe you are, I don't know, but we can't hear you, sorry. Um, but yeah, like do research into the people who are putting these things together. Like, what is their worldview? What have they written or what do they like to write, right? How do they talk about the stuff they've written or created? And how do they talk about like the space in which they create, you know? And that's important, not just because it's like interesting or whatever, even though hopefully it is, is because like you don't want to submit stuff to a magazine that's like, you know, you're submitting anarchist stuff to the like Cato Institute or whatever. Like, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you don't want to submit like mismatched pieces to places, because then you'll like not get in. And then maybe they don't give you feedback related to that, but like that kind of thing, like being very targeted in where you're submitting things is like really important as to like allow you to know what works and what doesn't, right? Like it's a critical piece of that. Yeah, like so. If you submit something that doesn't fit, then you're probably submitting to the wrong place, right? And kind of more specifically on that, right, is like, or how to avoid that is like you want to submit works that like resonate with one, the tastes and interests of the editors, two, the work that you kind of see them doing, and three, the stuff that you want to create, you know. So the most exciting pieces for us and editors in general will be the things that sit in the kind of intersection of all those three things. And and again, this is kind of me asking for the moon and the stars, but like also are filling a gap, right? That you know, the publication hasn't really been able to, or like is coming at things from a different angle, right? So if you can do all of that, that's where you have really exciting things. And then just in a general sense, make sure you're like, again, please read, follow the procedures for submissions, don't do stuff incorrectly because again, that'll immediately get you kicked out, like Scooter was saying earlier, right? And another thing, this is kind of just like a approach thing, is like don't draft your submissions, don't start typing immediately in the submissions portal. It's better to, especially for things that are not multiple choice, copy the questions into like another document or write them down somewhere and then work on them from there. That just makes it easier to double check because a lot of submissions forms, you don't get to see like the full paragraphs of what you wrote because it's like one line or a couple lines wide or like long, I guess. Um, and so it just makes it harder to check over stuff. And even then, once you copy that over, make sure you check again. Like, we want you to be really intentional with how you're submitting stuff to us because this is our first and maybe only impression of you. Like, and this is every the case for every editor. Like, not to say people are looking for reasons to reject, but maybe some people are, you know, and so you never want to add to that. You never want to add to the kind of lack of you know, polish that can make people turn away from your work.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Thanks, Div. I think we've gone

Our dreams for this issue

SPEAKER_01 20:40

through most of the details on the page. So I want to kind of ask you, can you tell me a little bit about what your dream for this issue looks like?

SPEAKER_02 20:48

Yeah, I would love, again, like, I mean, you know, not that I have any quotas or anything, but like I would love for it to really be rooted in the kind of experiences of multiply marginalized people. And that's something we probably said a few times, and if you don't know what that means, it basically just means you sit at the intersection of multiple, usually identity-based sites of marginalization, right? So, like you could be someone who's like an indigenous and a marginalized gender person, right? And that would mean you're multiply marginalized, right? And so, yeah, that kind of or you could be, you know, poor and disabled, right? Like that's multiply marginalized. So we want like we're not necessarily like, oh, we want specific configurations of that or whatever, but in a general sense, like being able to kind of feed into that feels like it'd be really sick. So that's kind of my overall thing. And then I think in a general sense, having the magazine be something that shows that multiply marginalized people can like do cool work and like be at the same like whatever kind of prestige or like and not even like there's prestige in the sense of clout, but like there's this kind of legitimacy and rigor and Capacity and ability associated with like mainstream media, for example, or mainstream outlets, whether it's for journalistic work, whether it's for essayistic work, whether it's for like you know, fictional, no, no, no, like whatever. And being like, no, like that stuff is actually just like often kind of like shittier versions of what we're doing over here, and just kind of being able to prove that and show that, you know, in a way that is like really cool. And then part of that is like having it be kind of a core part of like a wider creative ecosystem that is also very politically oriented and you know, is pointed in that direction always is like, yes, like I make art because I think it's cool and fun or whatever. And given that I'm someone who can make art that is cool and fun, there's a bit of an obligation to like not ignore the fact that art exists in the world as it currently is, and and and grappling with that, whether it's in the work or in the stuff that happens around it. So that that maybe seems like it's kind of straying away from like, what do I want the magazine to be? But like it's to me, it's like, well, this is has to play a role. Maybe it's a keystone species, right, in this ecology, but like it's it's feeding this wider ecology of like creative work as part and parcel of you know movement activity. But yeah, I'd love to also hear Scudder your like take on it. Like, what are you kind of excited to see? What do you hope to see from this uh Zine magazine, whatever you know, they that we're doing?

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. Um, obviously you and I have been working on this for a little bit now, and like I think I'm most excited to just have like for the community aspect of what we're talking about here, like I would love to see we're we're talking, I mean, I we haven't talked that much about this, but we're trying to do a lot of work around flattening the hierarchies between editors, submitters, you know, and and trying to make that like to flatten it. Obviously, it's not gonna be perfect, but I'm really excited about like you know, hopefully this works, fingers crossed, and then this is something that can can continue to go and be a little flywheel. And like I guess what I'm thinking about is like we need more of this type of stuff. We need people writing, right? We need people organizing and then writing on the side, you know. Like we need more writing, I think, and maybe that's a maybe that's a hot take. You know, I think a lot of people shit on people who write, but I don't I I think we need more writing, you know, we need more people thinking, more theory, more reporting, more art, more like all these things. And so I'm just excited for the potential of this collective to come together, bounce ideas off each other, work together, and hopefully create some really cool stuff that is also really needed. And that kind of leads me to my like next question for you, Dip, is just like, how do you see ultimately this connecting to your theory of change, you know, thinking through, like, you know, we talked in the beginning of um, you know, we've talked about social ecology, we're talking about anarchism, we're talking about um transfeminism, we're talking about, you know, thinking about ecology, we're thinking about anti-anti-racism, patriarchy. Like, we're talking about these things. Like, how do you see this tying into your theory of change?

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yeah, I think that a big part of it is like, I don't want to ever overstate the role of the artist as an artist making art. I think that they're an important player in you know these things. Like, I don't know if insert oppressive regime here would uh employ artists if they weren't useful to like maintaining whatever narrative, story, propagandistic line they wanted to. And not to say the only role of the artist is a propagandist, but I am also saying that because I think propaganda comes from having an opinion. So you're always kind of propagandizing around your opinion, if not directly for it, you know. Um is my take, you know. Um, and as part of that, like I think it's like, okay, well, I don't know if it makes sense or if it's possible to be like, all right, we just can't make art anymore because hegemony exists, and so everything is unethical under capitalism, so stop doing all of this. But also, it's like, well, that doesn't mean we don't change how it's being done, right? And so since art is really important and it's so I don't want to say tainted because that feels like weird Christian morality stuff, but like it is so deeply, deeply, deeply shaped by the fact that like capitalism may be an unsuccessful totality, but it is it has a lot of totalizing elements to it, right? Like it is probably the most successful system of hegemony ever. Right? More people live in a capitalist way than anyone's lived in any way ever before, probably. That's me being my like leftist, like making you know claims that I can't necessarily back up through empirical evidence, but I think y'all get the idea. Um, and given all that, like we have to kind of struggle with that as creative people, I think, right? Like we have to be like really honest about like a lot of the stuff we do gets used to like kill people, right? And so, like, what if we could do stuff that was used to like heal people and care for people and fight for the people to be cared for, right? And defend that care. While also being really honest about it's not just about flipping the switch in the other direction, it's about like recreating an entirely different kind of dynamic around creative activity so that it can be, you know, that can be embodied in a way that's really like honest about the contradictions that come with being a creative in this context, right? Like, you know, I I could go on the whole thing about like the class positionality of creative people, but like it is a thing where like I think people have to be really honest about like that kind of partnership role that art has had for ruling power, whatever that means, right, in a given historical time period. Whether that's you know, we put a piece out about Artemisia uh maybe a couple months ago at this point, and you know, she's one of my personal favorite painters ever. And also, she was like painting for the king of Spain and stuff, you know, like you like like you can't separate those two things, I think. And like we have to be able to grapple with them, and not just in a kind of, oh, we acknowledge it so we're done kind of way, but like we acknowledge it as the starting point to being like, how do we strategize our way out of that, right? To where like we can make the paintings we want, and maybe that means they change. Maybe we don't use super expensive materials that can only be funded by the kings of Spain or whatever. Maybe we do lower fidelity stuff, but we're still able to create, right? And we're still able to make stuff, and again, we're doing it in a way that maybe has us less wrapped up in hegemony or like the status quo, you know. Yeah, I hope that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense, and I am excited for more of these conversations. I know I talked a little bit about this community like that we see coming out of this project, or at least that we would aspire for. Um, Dib, do you want to talk a little bit about what you would like to see?

SPEAKER_02 29:30

And this is get real like into what I want in a very kind of selfish, um, egoistic sense. Um But you know, my desire is really to like have people who like for people to really treat it like the best case scenario, kind of like organizing context. And so what I mean by that is that's like a weird way to say it, but like it'll make sense after I say all this stuff I'm about to say. I imagine this whole process basically as like an organizing campaign, um, with a lot of kind of like you know, anarchist sprinkles in order to make that whole process less annoying to me personally, and a big part of that is like in my mind, is like building up people's capacity to do the stuff I'm doing as an organizer, right? So, like an organizer in my mind, it's like okay, there should be more organizers existing, and that just basically means people who are willing to like encourage people to do stuff is kind of like my kind of reductive way to describe it. And so I would love to have like people who are consistently showing up in these spaces in general, like across the board, no matter what kind of how you exist in relation to the space for the community, but like having that core contingent of people who feel really empowered to like constantly be bringing folks in. That doesn't mean like, oh, I'm bringing new people in necessarily, but like if you have like a group of friends or whatever who are like all kind of in this space, being willing to be that person that's like, hey, this event is happening, let's all pull up, you know, like hey, this thing is happening, let's do this, or oh, I want to have an initiative or a project or a thing that I think would be really cool to do, whether it's a shared creative project, whether it's an event series, whether it's a single event, whether it's a gathering, whatever it is. People who are willing to do that stuff in this space. Like that's what really excites me. Because I think that to me feels like even outside of the creative aspect, it's just like really great, you know, kind of activity that helps people understand like that's kind of how we should do stuff in the world in a general sense. Because I think what happens a lot of time is that like people kind of would expect the founders or leaders or whatever that whatever to like do all of that work and to kind of engage with the space as like a service-oriented thing, where like you give maybe like your time in a very limited way, and then in return you get all these access to these resources. It's very much a like you know, like a banking model, you know, it's like you're investing into the thing until it fills up or whatever, versus a more reciprocal thing where you to continue that analogy, the money is always moving around, right? The money's always circulating. And and that's kind of what I want is like for the energy to always be circulating, for like people to at different times be someone who's bringing people in, someone who's participating in another person's initiative, someone who's supporting another person's initiative, you know, that kind of thing. Like having that robust engagement is like what really I like hope and would want and imagine this space to be. Because I think if that is possible, and I do think it's possible, if that is achieved, then it'll be like a space to be reckoned with. Because a lot of spaces are very pyramidal in a lot of ways, but the kind of in this context, like in the participation, you have a couple of people who are really active and do everything, and everyone else kind of just like feeds off of that if and when they feel like it. And I would rather be much more kind of you know horizontal.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Agreed. I think that's pretty much it. Dip, if people have questions, where can they reach us?

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Um, they can't. That's the funny thing about being anarchists is that we are hard to find. No, I'm kidding. Uh, we have an email, it's uh you know, classic proton email, and so it's just the name of our thing, chaos and conviviality, no spaces, all lowercase. Um so chaos and conviviality at proton dot me.me.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Yeah. It's on the submission page and it'll also be in the show notes, too. So cool. Cool.