Episode 9 - Max Kast (Part 1)

In Episode 9 of Wine With Friends, host Marcus Ginyard welcomes Max Kast, Director of BOND Winery and one of the few Master Sommeliers in the world, for the first part of a special two-part conversation.

Max shares his journey to becoming a Master Sommelier — a path defined by discipline, deep knowledge, and an unwavering commitment to the craft of wine. He gives insight into what it takes to reach the highest level in the wine world, and the passion that drives him to keep learning.

Marcus and Max also talk about the importance of building relationships with winemakers and understanding the stories behind each bottle. From vineyard to glass, Max explains how wine is more than just a beverage — it’s a reflection of people, place, and experience.

This episode is about mastery, curiosity, and the stories that bring wine to life.

Pour a glass and join the conversation. 🍷

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome to Wine with Friends, where meaningful connection and thoughtful conversation are always present when we share wine intentionally. Tonight we have a very special guest, as always, but really special this evening. Uh, a gentleman who I just recently got to meet not too long ago, call it four or five days ago. He is the estate director at Bond Winery in Napa Valley. And also just so happens to be the only master Somalier here in the state of North Carolina. Thank you so much for joining us this evening, Max Cast.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Hey Marcus, thanks for having me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Real honored to be here. Well, we're thrilled to have you here this evening. And right off the bat, I just want to draw some attention to these lovely bottles of wine that we have here. So I know this is your first time on the pod. Hopefully, it won't be your last. Typically, what we do here, Max, is we open the bottle to start the pod.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Yep, cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

But I see here that we've got some bottles that are already open.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Yeah, so coming from a German family, I always like to be really prepared.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

And being prepared before I leave the house, I want to make sure that the wines are in good condition. So uh particularly if you're dealing with one wine that is, you know, only five years younger than me. I I wanted to make sure that it was solid before I brought it in. And um, in case I had to bring another.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah, well we certainly appreciate that that thoughtfulness. So I think we should be following your lead this evening. Tell us where we start.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Yeah, so uh sometimes I'll uh sometimes I don't know, right? So I think I think we'll start with the Scorpion today. Okay, we'll start in South Africa.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

South Africa.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

And we'll start in what I think is one of the most dynamic regions in South Africa, the Swartland. Uh it's really, you know, a region that's about 250 years old. Uh South Africa, you know, over 400 years of wine growing there. Uh they have some of the um longest history of certain grape varieties, and they have very unique grape varieties that are grown there. And they're known specifically for chenimblon. Uh, and the chenem blonde there has been there for so long that it has its own biotype. So you have like 13 original registered clones, I think actually 18 clones, uh, of that are unique to South Africa. So, since it's a warmer climate than the Loire Valley, you have thicker skins, but you still have that high acidity that makes Chen blanc so delicious. You also have Palomino here, and Palomino, there's a long history of making fortified wines in South Africa. So, with that, Palomino being a lower acidity uh white grape by having really nice texture to it as well, uh, makes this wine delicious on so many ways. So we're almost 10 years old here. This is Ebon Sadi. Uh, Eben, one of my favorite winemakers in the world. Uh, he does single vineyards, old vine, single vineyards. That if he wouldn't make the wines, honestly, likely these vineyards would be torn up. Uh so he's turned them into something truly special. Uh, and you know, there's only in some cases maybe 250 cases each of these single vineyards. Of the single vineyard. Of the single vineyards, yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

So, yeah, already this color is magnificent.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Thank you so much for sharing this. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

These wines are special for me.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, I love it. Already we're we're gonna dive right into one of the things that we think is so important when we talk about wine, and it's the story. Yep. So, like, already having heard about where this comes from and and all the different things are happening in this region, this winemaker who you love so much, yeah. Like for us, we've been talking about stories over scores. And so to hear stories like this, you know, already get you attached to the wine and interested in the wine in a way that is very different than seeing a sticker that says this is 92 points.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Because what does that mean ultimately, right? So you know, for me, points are good, they have their purpose, but at the same time, it's the story behind the points. Why, why are you giving those points that? And with for me, it's how does the wine make you feel? Like, does it bring you joy? Does it bring you happiness? And then if it does, man, I want to know everything about it. And I I want to know the winemaker, I want to get to know that. Like for me, those are the things that really excite me in wine.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Well, thank you for sharing this.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Cheers, thank you, thanks for having me. Can't wait to hear what you think.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yeah. Right off the bat, the detection. I mean, I would characterize that as silky. Um, and I love that. It's something that is it's something that's recognizable.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Off the jump. Um this one feels to me extremely balanced. I get the acidity that you talked about, yeah, but not in a way that's off-putting. I certainly want another sip, which is you know, beyond the score and even beyond the story. Do you want more? Yep. Um, this has already got me wanting another sip.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Um I'm excited to have that second sip. Am I crazy that I mean I feel this honey in there?

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Yeah. Honey chamomile. Uh you you get that like bruised sort of uh pear, bruised lemon sort of aroma. But on the palate, you you you're right, it's velvety, it has roundness and creaminess, and then that acidity cuts into it, so it's multidimensional. So you have like this elevation and roundness at the same time, so it's expansive. Um, but I love what you said because one of my, you know, back when I was still working the floor and uh a simolier on the floor, I'd I'd tell people when they'd say wine's delicious, but you know what? That's my favorite tasting note. That's the most important tasting note that there is, yeah, right? Because if you if you don't think it's delicious, we need to find you another wine. Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Well, tell us a little bit about that journey. Yeah. As you kind of reflect on being back on the floor as a psalm. Tell us about what transpired from your beginnings in Detroit, yeah, from a German family, which you've already mentioned, to now, you know, being a uh a prominent figure at Bond and all the way in between.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

How much time do you have?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

We got all the time that we need, trust me. We got plenty of wine. Yeah, we're good to go.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

All right, cool, man. Thank you. Uh so yeah, I grew up in the suburbs outside of Detroit, one of nine, one of nine kids. Uh you know, super talented siblings, uh, fortunately, uh, and really loving siblings uh who were big inspirations for me. Uh, my parents were both really into food and wine, and you know, having family in Germany would go there often. I was lucky enough as a kid to travel to France and Germany and Switzerland, places like that. And like I was like, oh man, not only are these places so cool, but like food is so delicious. And every place there's food, there's happy people, and people are connecting, and like as a kid falling asleep at like my mom's feet, having like at the table, talking to relatives. So I always had that there was something romantic about food, wine, and like the table, right? I call it the art of the table, right? And I when I I loved skiing growing up, I love the mountains, I love nature. I've you know, my older brother went to the University of Montana and I would go out there, ski, would hang out. Uh just I loved it. It's a cool place. I still think Missoula is one of the coolest little cities uh in the world. And yeah, I went out there, got my degree in history. I was on the seven-year college track. Okay. Um it's it's not, I wasn't just uh I was doing a lot of different things, right? So I that's when I started working in restaurants. I skied a lot. I I you know, I did things like promoting concerts, played as I'm a bass player, so I played in bands. Um, and most importantly, I met my wife. And you know, me in meeting my wife, I'm like, oh, I need to at the same time, I I've I decided that I was going to make wine my career. Uh so there's this period where we're just kind of all the stars aligned, right? And it's like, cool. I I met someone I love. I I found the career that I love because it takes you know, history, economics, uh you know, uh science, geography, art, uh, culture. It takes everything that I have an interest in and it is one thing, right? It's this beverage that uh is part of nature, but then also an ephemeral art form that once the bottle's gone, all you have is your memories of it and the people you're with. Yeah, right. Uh so I I've still to this day, like I'm a kid in the candy store and I think about a great bottle of wine. I was so stoked to open this up.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Like, I'm like, oh, I know it's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

And then, you know, it was there that I got my first, my first kind of serious gig. Uh, fortunately, at a uh Relay and Chateau in the Bitterroot Valley in Montana when I was at 25 and um yeah, like incredibly lucky. I we had my daughter was one year old at that point, and I yeah, I had to we had to make things happen. So uh and then eventually the general managers there invited me to go to a Relay and Chateau conference in Switzerland, and I met RB Fitch and Teresa Chiattini, uh RB the owner of Farrington House, and Teresa the longtime general manager, and they you know we kept in touch and they're like, hey, why don't you come out here? We have a position open, and uh they moved us out here and we raised my daughter here, my granddaughter was born here. Uh we have the this whole uh whole whole life here. So uh North Carolina is an important part of that. So I was wine director at the Farrington House, one uh place is super special for me, uh, for 10 years. And through that time, I was, you know, I passed the advanced exam, which is the third level on the Court of Master Simouliers uh paths of certification. Okay. And then 2011 I sat the Master Simoulier exam. And I, you know, that that really got into uh a mode of real serious performance and studying, uh, and a path of many challenges, put it that way. Uh so 2011, um I don't know, I don't know in the other podcasts, and I'm sure I'm sure you're familiar with some aspects of it.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

I would love for you to dive into that for our listeners.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Cool, yeah. So with the examinations, you have you know four levels. You have the introductory examination, uh, which is uh, you know, we do two-day courses. At the end of it, there's a quiz, uh, and you get your introductory pin, which allows you to take the certified exam, which is exponentially harder. Uh, and you do a service exam, a blind tasting, and a theory exam. And you have to pass all those to become a certified simolier. Once you do that, we have our advanced course, which is one of the coolest things we do. So it's like three and a half days of um blind tasting breakout tables with master sommoliers and uh like really detailed lectures and the like. Uh and and that is, yeah, I mean, when you go to that, like every time I participate now as a master simonier, I'm like, oh man, this is the coolest thing ever. And I'm inspired by it. Uh, and then after that, you have the advanced exam, which is quite hard. The the pass rate there, I think, is like between 20 and 25%. Wow. Uh, and that is uh again, blind tasting, theory, and service. Okay. Uh, and then you become eligible to sit the master simonier exam. And when you do that, uh you have to pass the theory portion first, and then from there, you do blind tasting and practical. So at the blind tasting, you have six wines, you have three white and three reds, and you have 25 minutes to describe the site aromatic structure, your initial conclusion, and then your final conclusion. Then you have to uh get ultimately grape variety, region, uh, country, and vintage uh within that. So that that that's you know, most people consider that the very difficult part. All of them are difficult. Ultimately, the service was my Achilles heel, the first five attempts. Uh so the first time I set the two the exam in 2011, I passed blind tasting and I passed theory.

unknown 12:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

I didn't pass service, even though I was working at a five-star, five diamond relay and chateau running a wine program. And uh two years in a row I didn't pass it. So if you don't pass uh uh all three parts in three attempts, okay, you reset and you have to take everything over. Yeah. So I had to take theory again in 14, then didn't pass blind tasting, didn't pass service, started seeing a sports psychologist, uh working uh like reading on tons of books on performance, uh, like some of Phil Jackson's books, uh, and then also George Mumford, who is an amazing book on performance and meditation. Uh so really delve deep into like how to get your mindset to uh really perform at the highest level. So you know, so many people sit that exam. They have the knowledge and they have the skill set, but it's the performance like mindset that they that they don't have, which I'm sure you can relate to on many levels given your experience with so much pressure that you were under in your career, right? Um, so with that, uh I finally passed the service, then I pass didn't pass blind tasting two more times, reset. 2017, I didn't pass theory, I get to an end, I promise. Uh, and then 2018, uh I pass and I get to the point where I'm not doing this anymore. This is the last time I do it. I don't care. I have, you know, my my my wife and she has a great business. I love my job. Uh my my daughter, uh, you know, she's happy. Like, everything's great. If I don't pass this, no stress. No stress, right? So I'm like, if I pass, great. If I don't, it's the last time I'm doing it. Go in with that mentality, pass theory, go in a couple months uh months later, pass blind tasting, pass service, pass the whole exam. The caveat is that five weeks later, I get a call from my mentor, one of my mentors, and he's like, Max, this is gonna be the hardest swim call I've ever had to give in my life. And and he and he went, the exam was compromised, the blind tasting exam is compromised, and everyone who passed the tasting exam that is nullified, and you have to retake the tasting exam.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Okay, so how are we compromised?

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Uh so what one one of the examiners had given uh uh some of the wines to some of his uh mentees. Uh so with that being the case, yeah, it was it was, and and it was uh it was a completely stressful time period. Uh it's not the most stressful thing I've ever had to deal with, but it definitely was uh stressful given all the sacrifices you know my my my wife and my daughter uh I put them through in all those years studying and things like that. Um, and all my friends and all the people in this community in North Carolina that have been massive helps to me uh and uh kind of cheer cheerleaders for me, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

So and there's a financial risk too. No, I mean this is not a free test.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

No, it's not a free test. And I you know, it it is an investment, uh, the biggest investment being the wine to practice on studying your books, like travel to uh with visit different mentors and blind taste and get mentorship. All of those things add up, right? And fortunately, I I've I had uh an employer that was very uh generous in helping out in that, but that's not always the case. Uh and uh you know, and I'm forever grateful for that. Um but you know, still it it was still a massive uh kind of financial commitment uh on my family's end. Right. Uh all of that being said, the you is you had the opportunity to go back and sit the exam again in December. Uh they paid for everything. And to the the quartermaster sommelier, you know, they've I feel uh in the way that they've finally dealt, it was a very difficult thing to deal with on so many levels. There was no good choices. But everyone that sat that exam can pay can sit it continually. Okay. And they'll pay they for free, right? So they they until they ultimately uh and and ultimately the those times they paid for your free to flight over there, they paid for uh your your so where were you physically taking this test in St. Louis that time. Okay, yeah. So I went back, everything I learned about performance was on like tenfold. I had to block out everything, uh block out uh any sort of expectation, and just went down there, blind tasted, passed again, uh, and yeah, I ended up passing twice in one year.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

So not many people can say that.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah, no, it was it was a crazy experience, man. But thank you for humoring me and and listening to all that. That's that's a that's a long line.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

I love that. I appreciate that. And then so from there's a lot that I want to go back to, but just to bring it all the way back to Bond. So then from passing in 2018, now you've got this amazing certification as one of few people around the world as a master sommelier. And then where where does that take your career after?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

So at the time I was working for an an importer called Broadband Selections, and I uh was you know doing regional sales. And after passing the exam, uh they created a director of education role for me. So I started doing more events nationally, traveling nationally, then also teaching uh with the court of master similiers, so kind of brought broadening my my experience and then also working on my presentations and things like that, right? Uh and then after you know, it ends up being a really small community, the wine world, as I'm I'm sure you know, right? Starting to learn, yeah. I love it. Uh and it's one of the best communities, I think, in the world. And after a while, a friend of mine said, No, you you know, I think I want to introduce you to uh Corey Empting is the director of wine growing for uh Bond, and connected me. And I, you know, so yeah, we got along well. We we had a Zoom meeting with still the pandemic, and I pretty long Zoom meeting, started talking about Barolo and Burgundy and old Napa Valley wines, where yeah, we we have we have some similar tastes in wines, and most importantly, have uh a similar philosophy in the way we view wine and its place. And and for me that's an important thing. And um after that I got to meet Will Harlan, uh, who's uh the managing director of the wineries now, uh and we had a good conversation with him. Two months and 12 interviews later.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

12 interviews.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Um it it uh I you know, midway through, I I sourced a bottle of 2011 Pluribus, which is one of our single vineyards, uh, up in Spring Mountain. And it's like, oh, I want to guarantee I want to been a while since I tried the wines. I want I want to make sure that I believe in these these wines a thousand percent. And I opened up the wine decanted it, made a meal for my wife and I, and uh it's like, oh man, it just it blew me away. And like I was this is this is something deeply meaningful, uh, and I'm I'm excited about this. So continued on that. They finally hired me. Uh and um it's just such an amazing organization. And uh working with you know the Harlan family, who are just incredibly innovative, but uh very thoughtful uh like business operators and very philosophical in the way that they operate. Uh, and you know, working with Corienting, who is just such a um what's the best way of putting it, uh intuitive wine grower, like very focused on the vineyards, focused on on farming in a very holistic way, uh, and out of that coaxing out the kind of most true quality from the vineyards that we work. Uh, and and then from there in the cellar, kind of respecting all of that and and uh letting letting the wines really take their truest expression in the cellar as well, which sounds somewhat esoteric, but it you know, it's uh the the the results are are are truly there's beautiful energy in in in the wines, and um, I just feel like the luckiest person on earth. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah. You know, one thing that I hear in this story is perseverance. The perseverance that it took for you to sit for your master's somelier exam six times, 12 interviews to start working with Bond. You know, you talk about kind of the athlete's mindset and and working with that sports psychologist to get your your mind in that in that right place. What is it like for a winemaker to have perseverance?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

So not speaking from experience, but knowing a lot of winemakers and and people, you know, wine growers as we refer to it, right? Because it really is you you're you're a farmer, right? And you're at the whims of nature. The most the people who have the most perseverance that I know. Are wine growers because they they are reacting to the land every single year. And as we know, the land is is not consistent, and or the the climate is not consistent either, right? So you you have to and I feel lucky like with Corey or someone like Evan Sadi as well. I they they know the land so well because they've been intimately working with it for a long time. So if you know the land, you you in a difficult year, you have the ability to you know make decisions based off of your knowledge of that land, right? So you can you can kind of navigate the world in in that sense. Uh and then it's hard because you're you're it's so much hard work that you're putting into something, and then you you you go out and the rest of the world is judging it, right? Uh and and that that's it's kind of a deeply personal thing that you let out to the world. Uh and and I find I have the nothing but the greatest respect for winemakers in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah, and along those lines, you know, when you think about sports, and you talked about geography, science, you know, culture, and all those things coming together in wine, yeah. I like to think about it as an art form. And so can you talk about how wine feels artistic to you?

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah, of course. Uh so you know, at at not to keep on bringing out the the uh the company I work for, but a bond and and with the family, I you know, we view that like wine itself at its highest level reaches the the form of great art. Uh and it is within that sense great artwork inspires you. Great artwork lifts you up from the everyday and it takes you away from your worries, it builds your creativity, uh, inspires your creativity. Uh it makes you uh kind of more at one in the world in many ways, right? It gives you you you stop everything, you stop your mind, you you slow down, and you take your time with this thing, which is a snapshot of a moment in time. And you know, in that is there uh one of it's one of the great art forms ever, uh I think, to your point, right? It really is uh that that uh encapsulating a single year of nature from one single place, right? The scorpion, this one little place in the Swartland, out there with calcareous soil on like right on the Atlantic, like the year after year after year, Ebon makes this wine from this one spot. And you know, with that sense, um every year we have this opportunity to enjoy the nuanced differences in each one of those years, right? So there will be consistency, but each year there'll be differences as well. And that's what I love about what I do with Bond. We have these five different vineyards, and each year you get five different snapshots of what those vintages are like. Uh so it it really is like for me the most fascinating art form along with music. Uh and that's yeah, I think music's the ultimate art form.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Personally, I'm biased, but you know, a picture they say is worth a thousand words. Yep. How many words do you think a bottle of wine is worth?

SPEAKER_02 25:31

I think a bottle of wine, a great bottle of wine. There's so many things to describe it that ultimately you're left speechless. So it goes beyond words and speaks to your soul.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Oh I love that.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

That's kind of what that's what I think.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

I love that. And and what we also love hearing you say is that it slows you down. Right now, I I feel like life, uh at least here in the US, is about as fast as it's ever been. We're constantly pulled in so many different directions, doing all the things, maybe not diving as deep into one or two things as you know, being spread all over the place. And so to have the opportunity to to slow down, to be thoughtful, to be intentional about those moments that you talked about is one of the things that uh I think is the most important, one of the most important things about wine is its ability to to slow us down and to keep us present in one moment.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Yeah. I I I I agree with you. I and I think things like that, to your point, are so important now. Just like what we're doing right now, having a conversation over wine. Uh it's an important part of I think a healthy civilization when people get together, have a glass of wine, and get to know each other. Yeah. Right. And and you know, for the naysayers about alcohol and things like that, you know, um forget to talk about the importance of connection that it brings. And we live in the most disconnected time period in I think civilization ultimately, because we're in our silos with our phones. And I read an interesting article in The Atlantic about how you know the increase in cannabis and the decrease in alcohol is actually and and the increase in cell phone use has actually led to more isolation. So it's not just the cell phone use, but it's actually the increase in cannabis because nothing against cannabis, but the the uh it's it puts you in a different mindset, right? Right, it's more antisocial. I've that's one theory, but I thought that was kind of an interesting thing, right? Um, any anyways, that kind of went down a rabbit hole on that. I apologize.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Well, I'm glad you said that. Speaking of rabbit hole, we're very glad to have you here in the rabbit hole. We're very grateful to the rabbit hole for having us here. Um, you know, you think about places like Farrington House um and other beautiful places here in Chapel Hill. There's um none more beautiful um than the rabbit hole. So thank you very much for your support. We were glad to have you here. Uh, hopefully you feel at home in this lovely place. Very much so. The rabbit hole is great. Good. Yeah. You know, one thing I wanted to ask you, and I don't think there's anybody better to tell us about this, is this white wine that we're having right now is not cold. To me, it's at this point very slightly chilled. Tell us a little bit about the temperature of white wines. I feel like we're drinking our white wines too cold. I think we're drinking our red wines a little too warm. Can you talk to us a little bit about what makes some of the optimal conditions for drinking red and white wine?

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Yeah, I and again, right, this goes to what's delicious. So what's delicious for you ultimately is is is important. Um, my my own if the way I like to drink wine and um, you know, the way I like to serve wine when I'm presenting wines to people. Uh it all depends on the body of the white wine. This is a relatively full-bodied white wine. I don't want to serve it too chilled, but I do want to have it at like, I think it was this is probably when I brought it over, like 54 or 55 degrees, which is about cellar temperature. And I think it's really nice at that at that point because you you get the aromatics, you get that roundness of the structure, and you and you get it still have the acidity to it. If I was bringing over a Riesling, I'd probably have it uh more at like 50 degrees, uh, between like 50 and 53 degrees. But I don't get scientific about it, and because you know at the end of the day it's wine and it's meant to be enjoyed. There are certain times when you need to be scientific about it, but um I yeah, like I said, more full-bodied whites I like to have a little warmer, like seller temperature. Lighter bodied whites, I I like to have just a little bit more chilled. Awesome. Then red wines definitely depends on the same thing, right? Uh, but ultimately, never really over 60 degrees for me, my own taste. Yep, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

You know, thinking back to your journey through wine and you know, being at those tables, falling asleep at the at the foot of your mother at these tables. Yeah. And you talked about being very our world being very disconnected. What was it that you experienced at those tables and at dinner with people sharing wine? What was it that you saw there and learned from a very young age in terms of how important wine can be for connection?

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Well, you for me, it was always these opportunities because we were with relatives or my parents' friends, or visiting friends like in France and and the like, that it was it was this moment of oh, we're we're around the people that that we're excited to see. It's been a while. So, yes, we're gonna open up wine and we're gonna have conversations. And going back to that too, where do the conversations go? They go to art, they go to travel, they go to music, they go to you know, cuisine, restaurants you'd like, uh all of those sort of things. And for me, in in my mind as a kid, just more than anything, it was happiness, right? And and that was uh something where you like if if you can, and then later when I wanted to make this a career, it's like if you can make a living making people happy, and that's ultimately the the the purpose of what you do for a living, uh you you know, you may not be a doctor saving lives, but you're at least making a small small improvement on people's on people's life.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

I think that's a very powerful mission to get behind. Yeah, um, one that I certainly support.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

It seems like wine has been around you forever. But do you think about can you pinpoint maybe a moment or two where you really knew that this was going to be the path that you took?

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Definitely. But I want to ask you that question too. Yeah. So uh let's turn it around for a second because I because I'm curious I'm curious about that. What what is the the the moment or moments that turned around for you?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

There is a large kind of global moment of spending my first year in France. And much like when you were younger at those dinner tables, just seeing how important food and wine were to bringing people together in a very intentional way.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Two, two and a half, three-hour lunches to me blew my mind. I'm like, what am I doing here for three hours? Yeah, why am I here this long? But when you look around the table and you see nobody has their phone and everybody is truly engaged and curious about what's going on in other people's lives and happy to be there and excited that they're all together, it just kind of flipped the switch for me. And and then being around so many people who may not be wine professionals.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

But just like we could ask any 12-year-old boy who is Aaron Rodgers and what team he played for, and what's their record, or you ask some teenage girl, what's the last album that Taylor Swift released? You know, it's kind of this general knowledge that everybody seems to have.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

And when I was in France, everyone seemed to have that same general knowledge to know that in Bordeaux in 2016, it was a relatively wet year.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

I don't know if that's true. But you know, like that kind of knowledge seemed very fundamental, foundational to quote unquote common folk everywhere, you know. And so I was like, man, this is something that's really cool. It's bringing a lot of people together. Everybody kind of knows about it, at least at some fundamental level. And and clearly it's something that's meaningful to them. And so it just caught my attention. And then spending more time in Europe, having an opportunity to come back to France, to live there for a couple more years, then it really just like set in. I mean, what an amazing place to pique your interest, to start diving down that rabbit hole. One of the most amazing. I mean, yeah, unbelievable. Yeah, and so just spending time in in France, I think, globally started to get my mind in that place. Um and then, you know, just sharing bottles like this where there's a moment that you're celebrating, or there's a year that you're celebrating, getting into like anniversary wines or getting your birth year wines, or things like that, is now like taking my mind to a whole new level of like again that snapshot. Yeah, what was happening the year that I was born, or that my friend was born, or that you passed your your your master sign exam, you know, like going back to 2018 and and always having an opportunity to see a picture of that year is is really cool. And so, and I also say coffee got me interested in wine, or coffee prepared me to be interested in wine. Okay. To think about a coffee bean. You take the same coffee bean and you process it differently, you roast it differently, you grind it to different, um, you know, to different levels. Then you have an espresso, you have a French press, you have an arrow press, and like you take this one singular coffee bean and you create so many different outcomes. Yeah. And so that kind of just got me prepared mentally to think about grapes and growing them in different regions and harvesting them later, and you know, all the different variants and and nuances to what I'm making. Yeah. I was like, man, this is to your point, this is artistic. It's scientific, but it's also very artistic. And so it just made it so much more interesting to me to explore that world and and think about all the possibilities that are out there.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

So it wasn't one bottle, but it was that that whole experience of the you know what what one of my favorite things, some of some of my favorite people in the world and best friends are French. And and the the the reason, well, apart from them being good human beings who I like I I I love being around, but there's that intention when it comes to really small details about the enjoyment of life. Like, you need to have the right cheese. Like, where did you get where did you get your produce? Oh, that baker, that baker, like like their baguette is perfect. Their croissant, they like you gonna go somewhere else for the croissant, right? Right, and and but then to to your point, like that deep knowledge and and not just knowledge, but pride in in in the wines, the ciders, cognac, uh, in the cheese, in the butter, uh, in the restaurants where where the chefs are are are are national heroes. Um, there's something beautiful about that culture in that sense, you know what I mean? And and I've I've always I've always been really inspired by by that. That's also across the board.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

And butter. Uh I miss French butter.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Yeah. I'm with you. Um I I can relate to you 100% on that. For me, oddly enough, the bottle of wine that really got me was a bottle of red wine from the Becca Valley of Lebanon. Okay. And it was a Chateau Muzar. And I was, which I actually almost brought a bottle of Chateau Muzard today.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

We've we've had one on the pod. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Well, I'm happy I didn't then. And I think you have an earlier vintage in 835, maybe was so the the the one that the wine that really was my inspiration uh was a 91. A 91, okay. But one of my favorite wines of all time was a 1970 Muzard Blanc actual interest. Uh, which was I I was fortunate that my in my previous position, we I I I got had the honor of working with the Muzar with the Hoshar family uh and tasting just these so many uh of of the of the wines and uh and so many different vintages going back to the 60s. Uh and it was it was an education in in uh flavor and in and feeling and emotion in wine for me. And the 70, like it was it was youthful, it was the it was the most bizarre thing. Like it was fresh, had great acidity, um, it had all these tropical fruits to it, uh, and it made no sense to me. But for that reason, I loved it because I I still to this day I'm like, how is that how is that possible? But the the bottle of wine that got me into is when I was I was in the university and I was still in school, I was getting into wine at the same time. I was trying to figure out what we're gonna do for like a job after after school. Um, busy time, right? 16 credits, full-time job. Uh, and my passion for wine was full force. I was up, got a book out from the University of Montana Library on wine, going through this whole section on Sarah Shoshar and how we made wine through the whole through the civil war. And I was like, wow, this is the most crazy story I've ever heard, particularly like growing up in the 80s and and and the 90s and hearing like watching the the news from Lebanon, right? Uh and and ultimately, you know, I walk into a wine shop in Missoula. Look, 1991, Chateau Musar Rouge, $35. Well, all right. At that point, that was a that was a big splurge for us. Uh so I bought it, we got it, and I opened it up with my my wife, and like just blew our like blew our mind. Like at that point, I think at that point in our life, a bottle of wine maybe lasted half an hour. Like that that that was about two and a half hours, right? Like just aromas, aromatics, yeah. Like we were in our early 20s. Um, but yeah, it really it was um that tasting that wine is a moment. I've a number of moments, and I'm I'm curious to hear if if you're like this too, this is how my mind works. Moments that I go back to in my life that just kind of flash, like flash into my mind, like going to school when I was six, or doing homework in my room when I was 15, or like like a perfect, like perfect ski run on a powder day where I'm like, man, that felt good. Right? Like the like those moments, that's one of those moments for me where I'm like I stopped and like time stopped, and I I remember every aroma and and and every taste. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Chateau Moussard. You know, you you talked about it was Serge at the time making wine then, and you know, the variability of the climate and the weather, and how that's something that you have to battle with every vintage. And then you think about someone like Serge. Thanks. I mean, in the middle of a war.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

And like to still be making such amazing wines with a war happening around you. To me, just again, back to the stories. Like, does that not make that wine exponentially more interesting? Just to think of the conditions that he was making that wine in.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Yes. Uh all the more interesting. All right. We got a situation here. I get to open a bottle of wine after that.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

I love it. So is the word.