America's Next Top Model Analysis from a Clinical Lens with Erick Nunez

Erick Nunez wrote a  recent social post that highlights the ANTM documentary/mini-series. The Good Therapist Is In typically doesn’t hit on pop culture, but Erick's assessment drew applause from audiences across the country. He masterfully highlighted the harm that was caused then and now and how reality tv is a sad mirror of society. Do we fully blame the show's creators and hosts for their actions or do we blame ourselves as society for wanting to see this type of content on TV. The conversation centered on the trauma that we witnessed, the effect on the participants, the effects of this type of content on TV, and how we can move forward. 

Check out the text of Erick's post here:

Moment of Reflection: Watching the ANTM Documentary

I finally watched the documentary on America’s Next Top Model.

And what really got me wasn’t the stories. - It was the shock.

The collective “I can’t believe this happened.”

The outrage like we just discovered reality TV exploits people.

And I’m sitting there like… WTF? Are we really surprised?

This show was created inside a system that profits off insecurity, competition, and spectacle. It was built in a culture that rewards thinness, silence, hierarchy, and “performing pain” for applause. Trauma was edited into storylines. Public humiliation was packaged as growth. Power dynamics were disguised as “tough love.”

So when former contestants talk about emotional harm, manipulation, body shaming, and psychological pressure…

I don’t see an anomaly. I see a mirror.

A mirror of capitalism.

A mirror of patriarchy.

A mirror of a society that says, “Be grateful for the opportunity — even if it costs you yourself.”

And yes — we have to talk about leadership.

Tyra Banks wasn’t just the host. She was the executive producer. The face. The power. And with power comes responsibility.

Do I think she knows what she did? I do.

Do I think harm happened? Absolutely.

And I’m not here to soften that.

But I am here to name something else:

Hurt people hurt people.

That doesn’t excuse the behavior. It explains the pattern.

We live in a world where trauma climbs the ladder and calls itself discipline. Where survival tactics get rebranded as mentorship. Where “I went through worse” becomes justification for passing it down.

As a therapist, what unsettles me most isn’t the cruelty.

It’s how normalized it was.

We glamorize resilience.

We normalize harshness.

We call it character building.

But growth that comes from humiliation isn’t empowerment — it’s adaptation.

Maybe the real question isn’t:

“How did this happen?”

Maybe it’s:

Why are we more comfortable being entertained by cruelty than confronting it?

We live in a cruel world. Not always loudly. Sometimes it’s polished. Sometimes it has bright lights and dramatic music. Sometimes it wears heels and calls itself an opportunity.

So no… I’m not surprised.

What surprises me is how long we pretended to be.

Also, fuck Tyra & the whole ANTM team.

Transcript

TGT Episode 2 with Erick Nunez

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Kenneth Edwards: Hello, and welcome to The Good Therapist is In, the show where we get to talk about topical issues that face literally all of us.

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Kenneth Edwards: But with a lens of mental health, self-care, and just a general space to be in.

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Kenneth Edwards: I'm Doctor Kenneth Edwards, licensed clinical professional counselor and work psychologist.

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Kenneth Edwards: I've got a lot of opinions about a lot of things, but I'll have guests on from time to time.

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Kenneth Edwards: that give us some new perspectives. If you haven't liked, shared, followed, and even memorized previous episodes, go ahead and do that now.

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Kenneth Edwards: Um, so Eric Nunez is my guest today. Eric is such a special human being.

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Kenneth Edwards: I haven't known Erick for very long, but in the short time that we've had a chance to work together, he showed himself to be a consummate professional.

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Kenneth Edwards: Strong advocate for his clients and a thought leader when it comes to distilling down.

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Kenneth Edwards: mental health in populations of color. He's a licensed clinical social worker, with most of his work based here in Los Angeles, California. He owns Debatis Therapist.

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Kenneth Edwards: A therapy group practice that works to advocate for communities of those who have been marginalized and oppressed, and his goal is to provide a safe and creative therapeutic space.

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Kenneth Edwards: For clients to express themselves openly and freely, with no judgment.

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Kenneth Edwards: Eric wants to make therapy comfortable, accessible, and affirming for people of color. Thank you so much for being here, Eric.

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Erick Nunez: Thank you for having me, it's really an honor, and one, I want to say I'm really proud of you for expanding and doing this podcast, so congratulations.

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Kenneth Edwards: Definitely, and I'm so happy that you get to be here with me. I'm really excited about that.

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Kenneth Edwards: Eric, before we dig in, I wanted to read a little bit of a post that you put out on socials.

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Kenneth Edwards: A little over a week ago, and this is what made me give you a call, but I want to read this one.

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Kenneth Edwards: part. And you all will know exactly what show I'm talking about when I start to read it.

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Kenneth Edwards: This show was created inside a system that profits off insecurity.

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Kenneth Edwards: competition and spectacle. It was built in a culture that rewards.

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Kenneth Edwards: Thinness, silence, hierarchy, and performing pain for applause.

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Kenneth Edwards: Trauma was edited into storylines. Public humiliation was packaged as growth.

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Kenneth Edwards: Power dynamics were disguised as tough love, so when former contestants talk about emotional harm.

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Kenneth Edwards: manipulation, body shaming, and psychological pressure, I don't see an anomaly.

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Kenneth Edwards: I see a mirror.

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Kenneth Edwards: Oh!

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Kenneth Edwards: Whoop!

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Kenneth Edwards: So, Eric, you've been in practice for a bit and you've no doubt seen the range of issues that present in a therapy office.

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Kenneth Edwards: But I wanted to chat about something a little bit different today, and something that's quite timely.

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Kenneth Edwards: Now, you've seen it, I've seen it, and many people who are listening have seen it.

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Kenneth Edwards: But this America's Next Top Model documentary that's been out the last couple of weeks or so.

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Kenneth Edwards: Oh, yes.

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Kenneth Edwards: Oh, okay.

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Erick Nunez: It's… it's… it's starting some things.

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Kenneth Edwards: It is stirring some things. And I came across your post, and it made me think, ooh, I want to talk to Eric about this.

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Kenneth Edwards: But I want to talk about it through a clinical lens. And there's no doubt that America's Next Top Model is under fire again.

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Kenneth Edwards: And specifically for the show's creator, producer, she takes on a bunch of different roles, but.

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Kenneth Edwards: Ms. Tyra Banks, and for the absolutely abhorrent way some of those contestants were treated on that show.

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Kenneth Edwards: Now, Tyra and her defenders have argued that this was the Wild Wild West of reality shows at the time.

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Kenneth Edwards: But contestants and those watching these days absolutely see the out-of-pocket behavior that just wouldn't have been accepted today.

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Kenneth Edwards: Now, that is a point, too, that we'll need to make to point out that this stuff was never good.

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Kenneth Edwards: But we did consume it at the time, and it was entertaining. What are you, what are you thinking about this?

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Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

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Erick Nunez: Well, you know, my first initial thought, honestly, around the reaction to the documentary was I was surprised that people were surprised.

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Erick Nunez: Right? When American's Top Model first came out, um, it came out in the early 2000s, right? So we have to identify that.

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Erick Nunez: right now, where we're at, we're at a completely different cultural stance, right? Like, cultural context is completely different than it is… than it was then versus now, right? So in the early 2000s, I think television thrived off of.

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Erick Nunez: humiliation and intensity, right? They needed something that was going to be captivating for the audience. When we think about that era, we have not only America's Next Top Motto, but we have.

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Erick Nunez: Um, Bad Girls Club, these group… getting these group of girls in different towns fighting one another, or, like, these, you know, these hard girls, or, like, making the band where.

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Erick Nunez: contestants were trying to join Diddy's group, but yet being humiliated along the process, right, while showcasing their talent. So I think that, um, it's interesting how, uh, there was a reaction to the documentary without identifying and acknowledging that reality TV back then.

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Erick Nunez: It's completely different than what it is now today.

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Kenneth Edwards: Right, but it is different, but why didn't we…

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Kenneth Edwards: hold Tyra and all of the other shows accountable then. Why does it seem that the backlash is bubbling up now.

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Kenneth Edwards: And it's finally spilling over, though.

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Erick Nunez: Because I think that we're more self-conscious now, I think we are aware of, um…

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Erick Nunez: how trauma is created now, to a certain degree, right? Um…

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Erick Nunez: When we think about…

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Erick Nunez: when we think about the process, right, it was humiliation, it was pressure, it was, uh, emotional distress that these contestants were going through. Um, but as Americans, I'm gonna use the American word, as Americans, we somewhat thrive off of vulnerability. We like to…

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Erick Nunez: Um, see, let me, let me make sure I'm using my words correctly because I don't think that we'd like to see.

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Erick Nunez: People empower control vulnerable people, but I think that power dynamic to us is entertainment.

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Erick Nunez: It's entertaining to watch that engagement. Um, so I think that back then, we didn't hold people accountable because, one, we didn't have the language that we have now for it.

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Erick Nunez: Um, so I think now we get to call it out to see what it is. But I think that while watching the show, there were moments of, like, hmm, this doesn't seem right, especially when it was, like, the whole, we're gonna change your races.

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Erick Nunez: Uh, episode, right? That was a shocker, but at the same time, it was like, well, we know TV's gonna bring us something different, some different context, and we've never seen that before. So I don't think that we knew how to hold Tyra accountable back then.

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Kenneth Edwards: But, Eric, come on, in the documentary, you look at the other hosts on the show, you know, Jay Manuel or Miss J, and you could see their clear discomfort with.

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Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

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Kenneth Edwards: Having to change the race for those girls, or, you know, do the homeless challenge, or the murder challenge, or…

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Kenneth Edwards: All the other crazy stuff that they were doing, and we're just sitting back like, ooh, somebody's gonna get kicked off if they weren't…

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Kenneth Edwards: Homeless enough. And we were consumers of this trauma porn. I mean.

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Kenneth Edwards: That's… that's not good.

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Erick Nunez: It's, it's not good. You're absolutely correct, right? But I think that during that time, society did not see those dynamics as.

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Erick Nunez: Um, as a negative impact, right? We weren't concerned about how that was going to negatively impact the contestant. We see… we saw that as entertainment.

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Erick Nunez: Right? To see a girl who… her… I think one of the contestants, her mother was murdered.

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Erick Nunez: Um, and they created this sad story around it, but then she was resilient, and she got through the photo shoot, right? So as an audience member, it was based off of how they really structured that narrative.

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Erick Nunez: to captivate the audience's attention. So I think for us… I think the real question is, why didn't society come together and say, what the is this show, and why are we watching it, and why are we giving it so many seasons?

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Kenneth Edwards: So…

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Kenneth Edwards: Well, I mean, you said it best, um, vulnerability was marketable.

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Erick Nunez: Yes.

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Kenneth Edwards: Vulnerability is what we want to see, not in ourselves, but if somebody puts it on a TV show, we're all about it.

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Erick Nunez: But I think it's… I don't think it's… you're correct, I think it's part of the vulnerability, but it's how we treat vulnerability, and the show treated vulnerability in a way of, like, humiliating… making fun of it, right? Like, not being…

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Erick Nunez: um, sensitive around that vulnerability. It was like, how can I use this vulnerability and make it into a moment that's gonna capture somebody's attention?

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Kenneth Edwards: You know, there's another couple of lines in your post, and I'm gonna put the text of the post on the podcast website, so that people can read the full text of it. Um, but there's another line that you mentioned.

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Erick Nunez: Okay.

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Kenneth Edwards: We glamorize resilience, we normalize harshness, and we call it character building.

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Erick Nunez: Hmm.

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Kenneth Edwards: These are really powerful words. You know, is making the journey.

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Kenneth Edwards: For others… I'm sorry, is making the journey a struggle for others? Is that abuse?

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Erick Nunez: To a certain degree, yes, right? Because there's a… there's a good difference between healthy challenge and unnecessary suffering.

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Erick Nunez: Right, and I think that within that harshness, right, it's like unnecessary suffering, right? You don't have to put someone through extreme suffer for them to grow, right? You could challenge them in a healthy way, right, to build resiliency so that they could see their power and their strength through that challenge, but when you're doing unnecessary suffering, that has a different requirement.

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Erick Nunez: Right? Growth often requires discomfort, right? We know that we're not going to grow in our comfort zone, we're only going to grow outside of our comfort zone, right? Um, but it's important to take individuals out of their comfort zone and still create a safe space for them.

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Erick Nunez: Not a space that feels dangerous or unsafe, right? Because then, uh, not only are you growing, but you're growing with some form of hypervigilance because you're terrified, because you don't feel ultimately safe in that space.

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Kenneth Edwards: Mm-hmm.

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Kenneth Edwards: You know, I'm really glad that you mentioned that there is a way to provide safety and to provide challenge and to provide growth.

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Kenneth Edwards: But we don't need to harm people in the process.

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Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm. And I think another thing, too, to think about is, like, we have to think about certain communities, right? In certain communities, when we think about growth, we're like, oh, we gotta give this person tough love.

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Erick Nunez: For them to learn.

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Erick Nunez: Right? And we often see that as, like, oh, we're building them a thicker skin, or they need to develop a thicker skin, so they have to go through extreme struggle, but that's not, that's not a healthy way of helping somebody grow.

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Kenneth Edwards: And you know what's, what's funny you mention that point. I've heard this in my own clinical practice.

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Erick Nunez: Right.

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Kenneth Edwards: kind of from a… from a trauma lens, is that, and I think it was Dr, um…

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Kenneth Edwards: Oh, don't let me get her name wrong. I think it was Dr. Joy DeGru that talked about post-traumatic slave syndrome.

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Kenneth Edwards: I don't know if you've heard this concept, but she talks about some of the ways that.

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Kenneth Edwards: people were treated back in slavery times, and how that has moved itself ahead. And the reason I bring that up is a lot of the times, I know.

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Kenneth Edwards: And I was fortunate that this didn't happen in my family, at least that I didn't know about, but…

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Kenneth Edwards: people only know how to treat other people based on how they've been treated, right? Hurt people hurt people. I think that was a part of your… your writing as well.

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Kenneth Edwards: But what's happening is we think that that tough love is what, like you said, it thickens your skin, it toughens you up, it gets you ready for the world, but.

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Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

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Kenneth Edwards: That's a terrible way to… to treat somebody.

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Erick Nunez: Absolutely, right? I think resiliency should come from a place of support, learning, growth, not by breaking someone down.

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Erick Nunez: And I think oftentimes, well, we know our society is known for breaking us down, right, to then rebuild us up.

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Kenneth Edwards: Hmm.

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Erick Nunez: Right? And I think that resiliency in our society right now is admirable because it's a reflection of, like, the human ability to overcome difficult situations, right? But not everybody wants to be resilient. I know that now, in my 30s, right, I don't want to be resilient all the fucking time. It's draining, it's tiring.

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Erick Nunez: Right? Sometimes I want to sit in my softness, right? But I can't, because society is telling me that you're supposed to hold resiliency as a badge of honor.

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Kenneth Edwards: Hmm.

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Erick Nunez: Right, and I think…

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Kenneth Edwards: Sometimes I want to sit in my softness. Thank you for saying that.

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Erick Nunez: Yeah, right, and I think also too is that we celebrate people who endure pain.

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Erick Nunez: And overcome it, but we rarely question why was the environment so harmful in the first place?

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Kenneth Edwards: What do you imagine, or why do you think that.

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Kenneth Edwards: Why do you think that these environments are so harmful, though? What causes that to happen?

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Erick Nunez: Um, a lack of care?

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Erick Nunez: Right? I think that sometimes these environments don't know how to care for the individual while they're growing or being challenged.

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Erick Nunez: Um, I think that that's something that has…

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Erick Nunez: developed over a period of time. I think that now our society, little by little, um…

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Erick Nunez: Is becoming more aware of what that care investment looks like, like, I could care for you and I could challenge you at the same time.

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Erick Nunez: Right? I could give you a gentleness and grace and challenge you at the same time. I don't have… it doesn't have to be…

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Erick Nunez: Tough love, and let me challenge you.

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Kenneth Edwards: Mm-hmm.

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Kenneth Edwards: Eric, I'm thinking about two more examples from the documentary.

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Kenneth Edwards: One of them was… I can't think of the contestant's name, but they were in Italy.

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Kenneth Edwards: And they were having fun with the other models that were visiting the house, and the one contestant was sexually assaulted by one of the… one of the guys.

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Erick Nunez: Candy. Mm-hmm.

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Kenneth Edwards: Was it Shandy?

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Erick Nunez: Yes.

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Kenneth Edwards: Okay, and…

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Kenneth Edwards: She reported that during that time, you know, the cameras are there, her housemates are there, the producers are there, and they had her go through it with having to call her boyfriend, and.

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Kenneth Edwards: He was gonna break up with her, and she's crying on the floor, and even in that moment, she reported, oh yeah, the cameraman was like, I'm so sorry we had to record that.

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Kenneth Edwards: So, Eric, they knew what they were doing.

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Erick Nunez: Absolutely. That's why, in my post, I also said, yes, Tyra Banks is the face of it, right? And she, uh…

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Erick Nunez: And with the becoming the face of this show comes a lot of responsibility, and she really.

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Erick Nunez: allowed for these girls to suffer in certain ways, but it's not only Tyra Banks, it's the whole fucking team.

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Kenneth Edwards: Mm-hmm. Everybody.

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Erick Nunez: Right? Everybody, everybody need to get it. Everybody needs to be helped. Okay? Right, and everybody needs to, um…

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Kenneth Edwards: No, not everybody, everybody.

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Kenneth Edwards: Everybody.

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Erick Nunez: Be underneath that, uh… that pressure of, like, why did they allow for that to happen?

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Erick Nunez: And I think that, you know, with this shady situation, it's drama.

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Erick Nunez: Right? And when we think about our society, our society loves drama. We thrive off of that, right? When we think about the generation that we come from, right, soap operas, drama, intensity, overreacting, right, is very captivating.

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Erick Nunez: Right? So, like, watching drama on television makes me, makes me feel like the drama in my life is not that important. So I'm invested in your drama.

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Erick Nunez: Right? Because it's a distraction from the that I'm going through.

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Kenneth Edwards: So, it's kind of a form of escapism that we all engage in.

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Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

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Kenneth Edwards: So, even if you have.

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Kenneth Edwards: the team from America's Next Top Model, you know, Nigel, Mr. J, Miss J, Tyra.

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Kenneth Edwards: Ken, the creator, the studio heads, everybody.

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Kenneth Edwards: Would you say that?

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Kenneth Edwards: We are just as complicit.

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Erick Nunez: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think back then, we were just as complicit. I think now.

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Erick Nunez: Um, the generation that grew up watching the show were a lot older, so I think reflecting back on this show, we're like, wow, there was a lot of things.

00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:30.000
Erick Nunez: That didn't sit well with us, or just didn't feel right, and now that we have more.

00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:44.000
Erick Nunez: understanding and compassion and understand the injustice that's constantly been happening in our society, I think that has built our awareness, but I think it's also to the generation that's coming after millennials, they're aware of what injustice feels like, and they're not tolerating it.

00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.000
Erick Nunez: You know, I always like to tell my clients in my practice that, um…

00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:58.000
Erick Nunez: Millennials come from a generation that didn't have options, so Millennials created those options, and then the Gen Zers have too many fucking options.

00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.000
Kenneth Edwards: Mmm. What do you mean by that?

00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:16.000
Erick Nunez: Right? So, like, the generation that millennials come from, I like to call them the generation of the hush, right? They're not going to shake a table, they're not going to acknowledge any issues, they're just going to live life, because this is how we're supposed to live life. Millennials were like, no, actually, that doesn't work for us.

00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:26.000
Erick Nunez: Right? I don't think I have just the right way or the wrong way. I'm gonna create a spectrum of options for myself, right? And I'm gonna pick and choose what's for me.

00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:37.000
Erick Nunez: So since millennials have created those options, Gen Zers have too many options. Now they're like, oh, it's hard? Oh, I'm just gonna… this is not for me, I'm just gonna move on to the next. But that also doesn't build resiliency.

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:42.000
Kenneth Edwards: Sure. And again… go ahead, I'm sorry.

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.000
Erick Nunez: Because they're not out.

00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:46.000
Erick Nunez: Because they're not allowing themselves to experience hardship or see if they could do something challenging.

00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:55.000
Kenneth Edwards: So, you know, no one wants to have to be resilient, though. I mean, we always say, oh my gosh, you're so resilient, and.

00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:05.000
Kenneth Edwards: We usually hear that in the context of, you know, unfortunately with politics and war right now around the world, we hear it in terms of.

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:09.000
Kenneth Edwards: Abuse, sexual or physical, things like that.

00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:19.000
Kenneth Edwards: And we're like, oh, they're so resilient. Well, you have to go through stuff to be resilient, maybe, kind of, but why do we feel like that's a desirable trait?

00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:24.000
Erick Nunez: Right, but first, I think it's, why does, uh, why does it have to be that extreme?

00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:28.000
Erick Nunez: Of a toxic environment for it to be considered resilient.

00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:38.000
Erick Nunez: Right? I think, like, why does an individual have to go through that level of suffering, um, to then build resiliency? I think that part of it is that, like.

00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:48.000
Erick Nunez: Resiliency is powerful, right, but I think the real goal is, is how can we create environments where people can grow and feel safe at the same time, not grow and suffer.

00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.000
Kenneth Edwards: I… I get that.

00:22:51.000 --> 00:23:05.000
Erick Nunez: Right, but look at the history of America, right? Like, suffering is part of the foundation of America, right? So that has been intertwined into how we see how people need to grow, or how they need to get.

00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:54.000
Kenneth Edwards: Yes.

00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:08.000
Erick Nunez: Out of difficult… difficult situations.

00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:13.000
Kenneth Edwards: You know, you reminded me, there's another line in your post.

00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:15.000
Kenneth Edwards: Um…

00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:20.000
Kenneth Edwards: Growth that comes from humiliation isn't empowerment.

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:36.000
Kenneth Edwards: it's adaptation. So, and please, and tell me if I'm wrong here, but that adaptation can be, in therapy terms, maladaptation, right? Like, we adapt in the wrong ways to the wrong things, but we know how to live.

00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.000
Kenneth Edwards: Eric, why is that such a bad thing, though?

00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:50.000
Erick Nunez: I don't, I don't, I think it's, there's, there's pros and cons to it, right? Um, why, why is it that, I think that.

00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:49.000
Kenneth Edwards: Mm-hmm.

00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.000
Erick Nunez: I need to… I need to look at my line again.

00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:58.000
Erick Nunez: What was the line again? Can you say for me?

00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:03.000
Kenneth Edwards: Yeah, yeah. Um, growth that comes from humiliation.

00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.000
Kenneth Edwards: Isn't empowerment, it's adaptation.

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:15.000
Kenneth Edwards: Yeah, let me give you the whole context here. We glamorize resilience, we normalize harshness.

00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:15.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:17.000
Kenneth Edwards: We call it character building.

00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.000
Kenneth Edwards: But growth that comes from humiliation isn't empowerment, it's adaptation.

00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:27.000
Kenneth Edwards: I might have to read that, put it on a t-shirt or something, because that…

00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:31.000
Kenneth Edwards: That line has stuck with me since I read this the first time.

00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:36.000
Erick Nunez: It's… yeah, so I think that what I was trying to say there is that…

00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.000
Erick Nunez: Um…

00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:54.000
Erick Nunez: we have a tendency of having this power dynamic within our society, where this power dynamic looks at the vulnerable as being less than and not as strong, so we feel as though, like, humiliation is part of that toxic environment, that humiliation is that, I need to break you down.

00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:01.000
Erick Nunez: Right? And in those moments, versus us leaving that environment, right, we adapt to that environment.

00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:09.000
Erick Nunez: Right? It's kind of like, you know, I grew up in a family where we showed love by making extreme jokes at one another.

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:22.000
Erick Nunez: Right? But that doesn't encourage the individuals in those moments, we're breaking each other down. But that's part of how we were taught to love each other while using each other's insecurities as a way of.

00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:33.000
Erick Nunez: creating lightness in the space, right? But that's also building your character. Oh, once you get in the real world, you'll have tough skin, you know, you'd rather hear it from family versus an outsider, but you just adapt to that.

00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:48.000
Erick Nunez: you adapt and you make it a norm, so then, I think sometimes as well, we grow up, like, then we start to minimize ourselves and make jokes about ourselves because we hear that from our loved ones. So I think part of it is, like, versus leaving that environment, we adapt to that environment.

00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:55.000
Kenneth Edwards: Ooh, you are… you are speaking some… some words today. Um…

00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:06.000
Kenneth Edwards: The, the idea that making jokes, insulting, taking someone's insecurities at some point in our upbringing.

00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.000
Kenneth Edwards: That was, quote unquote, normal, right?

00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:17.000
Erick Nunez: Normal, yes, and I see it now in my practice, right, with a lot of my clients of color, right, we use our trauma as humor.

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:27.000
Erick Nunez: And we make extreme… a lot of my clients make a lot of extreme jokes around their trauma, and I'm just like, it's a defense mechanism, right? It's to lighten it up.

00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:34.000
Kenneth Edwards: Oh, and somehow popular culture has figured out how to monetize.

00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:42.000
Kenneth Edwards: exactly, um, this idea of calling out insecurities. I mean, we saw it on the documentary.

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:47.000
Kenneth Edwards: These girls could be size 1, size 2, 0, and be called plus size.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:54.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm, but that also goes to show… that also goes to show where we were at.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.000
Kenneth Edwards: That's… that's crazy.

00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:08.000
Erick Nunez: in, um, in our society then, right? It's like, there was… we had this major push that beauty looked a certain type of way, right? Which is the malnourished model, the blonde hair, blue eyes, right? Very European.

00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:15.000
Erick Nunez: Um, so back then, those were the beauty standards, right? But I think over the years, right, we've also challenged some of those beauty standards.

00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:19.000
Erick Nunez: Right? Like, I was listening to a part…

00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:19.000
Kenneth Edwards: And…

00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:35.000
Erick Nunez: I was listening to a podcast not too long ago where they were talking about how, um, you know, Black doesn't crack, and the lady on the podcast said, you know, Black women really don't have a tendency of fearing aging. White women do.

00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:47.000
Erick Nunez: Right? When we ask our Black girls now, like, who's your beauty influence, a lot of them are gonna say they're mothers and their grandmothers, right? White women are not gonna say their mothers are their grandmothers, they're gonna say the younger individuals.

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:56.000
Erick Nunez: So I think that now, society, we're starting to have our… create our own beauty standards, right, that fits our culture and our communities.

00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:02.000
Kenneth Edwards: And that's… that's a really good ray of hope and optimism, that we are creating it.

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:13.000
Kenneth Edwards: somehow, Eric, though, I mean, you're putting it out there in the world that, you know, we are creating our own standards, and that's great, but there is still this degree of.

00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:20.000
Kenneth Edwards: people… I think they said that season 25 is coming out of America's Next Top Model.

00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:24.000
Erick Nunez: Um, Tyra would need a lot of investors.

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:39.000
Kenneth Edwards: But I think I heard somewhere that they were trying to come out with a final season or something like that, but I can only imagine, like you said, how difficult it is to get money to make something like that, especially given.

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.000
Erick Nunez: For that to happen.

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:43.000
Kenneth Edwards: The trauma that was inflicted on all these people so many years ago.

00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:55.000
Erick Nunez: Also, too, I think that contestants who would join the show, right, will probably see the documentary and have a lot more pushback, right? I think another thing, too, that we haven't talked about is, like.

00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:04.000
Erick Nunez: Back then, we are, we are seeing these really young individuals, these young women, navigate a world where.

00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:13.000
Erick Nunez: they're somewhat less than, and they don't know how to advocate for themselves. And I think that over the course of these past, it's been, what, like, 20 years since the show came out.

00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:22.000
Erick Nunez: Um, there's been a lot more women empowerment in how women need to advocate for themselves and set boundaries and guidelines on what they will and what they will not do.

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:31.000
Kenneth Edwards: And I'm happy about that, and I hope that that is an appropriate adaptation, again, to go back to our therapy speak.

00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:42.000
Kenneth Edwards: But an appropriate adaptation to all of the changes over how we talk about body and body shaming and trauma and all of these things that people.

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:46.000
Kenneth Edwards: Actually start to develop some…

00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:58.000
Kenneth Edwards: boundaries, start to develop the language around pushing back. You know, if there were a show like America's Next Top Model on TV today, and there are different types of shows, but if there was something like that.

00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:04.000
Kenneth Edwards: Would we see the contestants stand up to the hosts, or say, no, that's…

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:13.000
Kenneth Edwards: That's ridiculous, you're gonna make me change my skin color to look like another race, or be stereotypically that, or pretend to, um…

00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:18.000
Kenneth Edwards: Like we're homeless and I feel like we've gotten better than that.

00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:33.000
Erick Nunez: Yes and no. Um, I also feel like it really depends on the individual and their level of desire for reaching that dream, right? Because part of it is, too, it's like, I'm on this show.

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:44.000
Erick Nunez: you know, and my dream is to be a model, if I advocate for myself, or if I say something that may, um, create a moment of rejection, there goes my opportunity.

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:49.000
Kenneth Edwards: So it's that fear of loss if I don't participate, right?

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.000
Erick Nunez: Right, so… that's here.

00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:51.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:30:53.000 --> 00:31:00.000
Kenneth Edwards: So, how does culture continue to contribute to the mental health decline of so many? How does this culture.

00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.000
Kenneth Edwards: How does it do that?

00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:06.000
Erick Nunez: Well, I think, you know, culture plays a huge role in how…

00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:13.000
Erick Nunez: How do I want to say that? Culture plays a huge role shaping how we view ourselves and how we view others.

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:23.000
Erick Nunez: Right? So, like, I think, you know, media, for sure, we know this, often promotes unrealistic standards, right? Whether it's beauty, success, or just, like, emotional toughness.

00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:34.000
Erick Nunez: So people are constantly comparing themselves of what they're seeing on reality TV or television in general, right? So if I see someone and they have characteristics that I'm not…

00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:41.000
Erick Nunez: you know, really implementing in my life, then I'm gonna be like, oh, I need to show up as that individual, or if I see that that individual is.

00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:48.000
Erick Nunez: air quotes weaker than me, then I'm gonna judge that individual. So I think it often shapes how we see ourselves and how we see each other.

00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:55.000
Kenneth Edwards: Mmm, okay. And you might have answered this already, I know we kind of talked about it, but…

00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:57.000
Kenneth Edwards: Have we gotten better?

00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:01.000
Kenneth Edwards: Since then, have we gotten better since America's Next Top Model?

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:08.000
Erick Nunez: I mean, that's a… that's a hard question. Because part of me wants to say.

00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:15.000
Erick Nunez: Yes, but then another part of me doesn't feel like we've gotten better, right? I think that, based off of the…

00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:20.000
Erick Nunez: Place that we're at right now with our administration and how society is, um…

00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:24.000
Erick Nunez: running, I think we've taken a few steps back.

00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:27.000
Kenneth Edwards: Hmm.

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:29.000
Erick Nunez: There's… there's a lack of, um…

00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:39.000
Erick Nunez: what's the word I want to use? I feel like there's just, like, a lack of community, because I think that everybody is dealing with their own.

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:50.000
Erick Nunez: Issues and own way of, like, navigating life, so we have, like, somewhat tunnel vision, so we, so in hindsight, we care about each other, but we really don't care about each other.

00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:56.000
Erick Nunez: I mainly focus on myself, so there's a lot of individualism that's happening right now, from my perspective.

00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:02.000
Kenneth Edwards: You know, I agree with you. I think that we… because of all of the stuff.

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:06.000
Kenneth Edwards: Happening in the world, it's difficult to…

00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:18.000
Kenneth Edwards: try to care about our community at the same time while we're trying to preserve self, I think that we have good intentions, and we want to make sure that our communities are great, and our families and our friends, and.

00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:15.000
Erick Nunez: Right.

00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:25.000
Kenneth Edwards: And I think that that part is actually what's… what's keeping us safe, you know, since with all the war and the…

00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:31.000
Kenneth Edwards: COVID days and all of that is just checking up on people, but I would like to hope.

00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:36.000
Kenneth Edwards: that we are better. And the reason I say that… oh, go ahead, go ahead.

00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:38.000
Erick Nunez: I want to challenge you, better in what way, though?

00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:44.000
Kenneth Edwards: I think better in the way that we are able to recognize what's problematic.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:57.000
Kenneth Edwards: And… and let me expand on that just a little bit more, too, is you and I, and millions of other people have watched this documentary, right, over the last couple of weeks.

00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:51.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:03.000
Kenneth Edwards: And I haven't met one person who has not clutched their pearls.

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:08.000
Kenneth Edwards: more than a few times when they're watching it. And what that tells me is that.

00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:14.000
Kenneth Edwards: I can't believe we watched that. I can't believe Tyra said those things. I can't believe.

00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:27.000
Kenneth Edwards: You know, Mr. J and Miss J set there at that house in Italy or with the other contestant that was in somewhere in Africa, I forgot where they were, and the guy was.

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:32.000
Kenneth Edwards: Touching on her legs in the photo and they didn't say anything.

00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:38.000
Kenneth Edwards: I feel like nowadays, those things just wouldn't fly, and to me, that's some improvement.

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:44.000
Erick Nunez: Yes, at the same time, my challenge is, is that I think that now we're somewhat…

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:51.000
Erick Nunez: Thinking about the impact of those situations, back then, we weren't thinking about the impact.

00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:57.000
Erick Nunez: Right, so we weren't thinking about, like, how did that situation in Italy, how did that, you know.

00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:17.000
Erick Nunez: how was that impact for that young woman, right? Or with the motto in South Africa, how was it that, you know, this man was touching up on her? How did that impact her? I think that we don't know the impact unless we start talking about the situations, right? Same thing in, like, in our therapy sessions, right? Some clients don't understand the impact of their trauma until they take a step back and.

00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:27.000
Erick Nunez: have an observer approach to it versus being in the dynamic. Then they're like, oh, this has impacted me in so many different ways that I didn't even realize.

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:37.000
Kenneth Edwards: That's right, and your job and my job in the therapy chair is to give people language to talk about what they went through.

00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:43.000
Kenneth Edwards: Because, I mean, you talked about your family, and thank you for disclosing, and how.

00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:48.000
Kenneth Edwards: Jokes were made, and just the things that people say, and that happened in my family, too.

00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:57.000
Kenneth Edwards: But when we're able to sit and actually just lay it on the table and put words to it that say that this made me feel.

00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:02.000
Kenneth Edwards: dot dot dot, or I didn't realize that this is related to that.

00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:11.000
Kenneth Edwards: Then we start to realize our trauma, then we start to realize what it is we went through and how, sure, it was.

00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:21.000
Kenneth Edwards: you know, air quotes, character building, I guess I'm a better person for it, I don't know, or let me at least understand how it has affected me.

00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:18.000
Erick Nunez: Okay.

00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:28.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think, yeah, and that makes sense. I think also, too, is that we live in this…

00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:34.000
Erick Nunez: Society, this world, this culture that often rewards performance over authenticity.

00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:45.000
Erick Nunez: So I think it's more about, like, how you're performing and how you're maneuvering through the world that gets celebrated, not, like, who you are at your core or, like, understanding why you are that way and.

00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:53.000
Erick Nunez: And, um, and, uh, seeing how your trauma has, like, impacted that. But also, too, to add on that, I will say that…

00:36:53.000 --> 00:37:07.000
Erick Nunez: with everything that's going on in our society right now, I don't think that mental health is going to be improved, um, you know, at any point, because there's a different level of trauma that we're seeing as a collective right now, and that trauma is going to have some social impact on us.

00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:22.000
Kenneth Edwards: Mm-hmm. Oh, that's… Eric, that's a whole other episode we're gonna have to talk about. That is a whole other thing. You know, again, what continues to give me hope, and we're gonna wrap up in here in just a little bit, I so appreciate you, this has been such a good conversation.

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:30.000
Kenneth Edwards: Um, what gives me hope, though, is that even with the collective trauma that we're all experiencing.

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.000
Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm.

00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:37.000
Kenneth Edwards: We're able to look at each other and say, oh, you're going through it too? Oh yeah, I'm going through it too.

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:43.000
Kenneth Edwards: And, ooh, and so-and-so over there is going through their own thing, I may not know about that, but.

00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:47.000
Kenneth Edwards: I have an empathy. You know, we're good at empathy.

00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:55.000
Kenneth Edwards: I have empathy for what that person is going through and I hope that that's what comes of this period in time.

00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:02.000
Kenneth Edwards: I mean, if you were to think about this concept of resilience, of character building, of.

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:08.000
Kenneth Edwards: Us getting better, um, of the mental health of society, hopefully getting better.

00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:10.000
Kenneth Edwards: It's… it's a little shaky on the hope.

00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:19.000
Kenneth Edwards: what would you say to people out there as we try to move forward? What do you think is a call to action or a takeaway from our conversation today?

00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:25.000
Erick Nunez: Yes, I tell my clients this all the time, be more conscious about what you're consuming.

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:36.000
Erick Nunez: Right? And how you're participating, um, in culture now, right? The media that we're watching, the music, the TV shows, right? It all impacts us in different ways.

00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:49.000
Erick Nunez: And, um, it creates a level of trauma that we may not be even acknowledging, so I think that it's just, like, being more conscious about what you're consuming, what music, what lyrics you're listening to, right? What television shows.

00:38:49.000 --> 00:39:06.000
Erick Nunez: or news outlets you're listening to. Um, it's interesting because it's like, entertainment shouldn't have to come at the cost of our mental health or our dignity, right? We could be entertained and not negatively impacted. So I think it's just being more cautious about that. And stop watching that TV show Baddies, where people just fight all day.

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:08.000
Erick Nunez: It's not good for your mental health.

00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:22.000
Kenneth Edwards: Thank you for… for that. I appreciate that. Um, go… thank you, that was a really good, good, uh, final line there. But you said something just a second ago that I wanted to go back to. I said we were supposed to be done.

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Kenneth Edwards: Um…

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Kenneth Edwards: You said mental health… go back, like, 2 or 3 lines. You said something about mental health.

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Kenneth Edwards: Um…

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Erick Nunez: Entertainment shouldn't cost you your dignity or your mental health?

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Kenneth Edwards: Yes! Entertainment shouldn't cost you your dignity or your mental health.

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Erick Nunez: Mm-hmm, right? A lot of my friends and clients are surprised when I tell them, like, I hardly consume television.

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Erick Nunez: Right? There's a few selective shows that I will watch that I'm like, okay, they're interesting to me. So I'm really mindful on what I consume. News outlets, I hardly watch news, but I will keep myself informed.

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Erick Nunez: Right? So, music, right, I want music that's gonna be uplifting, not making me feel down about a baby daddy or because I'm not.

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Erick Nunez: Uh, throwing ones at the strip club or in the club.

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Erick Nunez: So I'm just very mindful of that. Yes.

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Kenneth Edwards: Yeah.

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Kenneth Edwards: Eric, we still throwing ones? Not in this economy. Uh-uh.

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Erick Nunez: In this economy, I hope we throw in wines in this economy. Gas is about to be $7, so…

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Kenneth Edwards: No, you better… you better throw some nickels at the club next time. We can't afford bills in this economy.

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Erick Nunez: Okay.

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Kenneth Edwards: Eric, thank you so much. Entertainment.

00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:39.000
Kenneth Edwards: shouldn't cost you your dignity or your mental health. If that is the takeaway message for the day.

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Kenneth Edwards: I so appreciate you, Eric, being the one to say it, and spread that word.

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Kenneth Edwards: Eric, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you.

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Erick Nunez: Awesome. Awesome, thank you so much for having me.

00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:56.000
Kenneth Edwards: This was such a great conversation, and everybody check out, um, The Baddest Therapist.

00:40:56.000 --> 00:41:07.000
Kenneth Edwards: dot com. Um, the website will be linked in the podcast, uh, show notes, so you're able to click there and connect directly with Eric.

00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:19.000
Kenneth Edwards: Um, we had a chance to talk about some really good stuff today, and thanks for helping us, Eric, to see America's Next Top Model from your lens, and through the 2026 lens.

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Kenneth Edwards: Yeah, that's what it should have always been, Lynn, but here we are, right? We live and we learn, and we hopefully improve.

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Kenneth Edwards: So it's up to us what we consume, um, and to our listeners, thank you so much for being a part of The Good Therapist is in.

00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:47.000
Kenneth Edwards: And please like, share, subscribe, um, share with your networks, and get it wherever you consume podcasts. It's on Apple Podcasts.

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Kenneth Edwards: Spotify, and we're working on a couple of more networks, and we'll catch you next time. Thank you so much.

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Erick Nunez: Thank you.