25-06-27 - ‘Let’s Get Serious: The Trinity’

Continuing the Let’s Get Serious series, Revd. Tim Gutmann examines one of the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith: the Trinity. Drawing on passages from both the Old and the New Testaments, he explains how Scripture consistently reveals one God who exists eternally as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Addressing common misconceptions, the programme explores the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, and the biblical basis for the doctrine while affirming historic Christian monotheism. Designed to strengthen believers and equip them to answer difficult questions, this episode presents a clear, Scripture-centred defence of the triune nature of God.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:20

Man, thank you, Jesus. And of course, the the doctrine of the Trinity is something that so many people kind of like either fail to fully grasp or to explain. Now, typically, you might be witnessing to someone, let's say, for an example, a Muslim, and the Muslim will say, Well, as a Christian, you're a polytheist. Or uh others will you'll be witnessing, and they'll have a slightly different version of Jesus who who might have, you know, for some of these religions and stuff, Jesus was either just an ascended master or he was an angel or this or that. But actually, we need to have a full high Christology, which is understanding that Jesus is Yahweh, just as Father is Yahweh, just as Spirit is Yahweh. Now they are free distinct, and I'm not using the word separate there because that would be polytheism. Three distinct persons, but the same essence, the same divine nature, which is God. So that's a lot to ch it's a lot to get through in about 10 minutes, but we'll do our best. We'll do our best. So listen, let's go all the way back to Exodus chapter 3. And Moses sees in the burning bush. He sees the bush burning and it's not consumed, and he hears a voice saying, uh, which is God, he says, I am who I am. And he said, Tell Israel the I am has sent you. So he is the I am. And uh so you see there uh uh God revealing himself, and actually throughout the the Genesis, the book of Genesis, he's El Shaddai, or he's uh El, you know, El um Beloi right uh the Lord who sees me, that was Hagar. In fact, she was the first to name God, that's another thing, but anyway, he appears to Moses, he reveals himself Yahweh, and that that is uh a huge revelation of who God is. And then, of course, here's a thing, and and I'm gonna try and explain something really, really quickly. The intertestimonial rabbis or rabbinical Judaism in the early days before Jesus, now things changed after Jesus for obvious reasons, but they used to believe and kind of like teach there were two powers or two Yahweh's, if you like. For example, how could Yahweh, who reigns in heaven, or the Bible says no man can see God and live, yet at the same time you have a revelation of Yahweh on earth? For example, it was Yahweh that spoke to Abraham. When uh there were three visitors, and two of them were angels, and they went off to Lot, uh, to Sodom, I mean to Sodom and Gomorrah, or there's the word of the Lord in uh 1 Samuel chapter 3, verse 10, it says, And the Lord Yahweh came and stood. So, how can Yahweh, who exists in heaven and is in heaven and reigns in heaven, how could it be standing on the earth? And so literally the word of the Lord came and stood beside Samuel. That gives you a hint as to what's going on here. The father, the son, the holy spirit, the son being the word that proceeds, the word that is generated from the father, but always existed, always eternal. And in turn, the father and the son, they breathe, they uh uh they they breathe the Holy Spirit, which is love, the will of God. So three distinct persons, not separate, three distinct persons, very same nature. Now, typically, when you're speaking to a Christian, they'll be like, they'll give an analogy without really thinking it through, like water, steam, and ice. Yeah. But the reason that might not work if you really look into it is there are here's one heresy, it's called modalism, and that's saying like God is you know, sometimes he puts on the mask of father, and then he could put on a different mask, son, so it's like the same person with different masks. That doesn't work because actually the the Bible is clear. Okay, how can you explain that Jesus prayed to Father? Or Jesus said, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me on the cross? Obviously, quoting the psalm, I know that, but he prayed to Father, and uh Jesus said, I and the father are one in John chapter 10, verse 30. I and the father are one in John uh uh uh 10. Yeah, there we go, John 10, 30, I'm the father one. So he is literally saying that he is one with the father, he is Yahweh, he revealed himself as Yahweh, especially in John 8 58, and his listeners would have understood this when he said, I tell you the truth, you Pharisees, before Abraham was I am. Now that's a huge statement, that's the I am statement of Yeshua concerning that Yeshua is Yahweh. But here's the thing, Yeshua being Yahweh doesn't stop the fact that Father is Yahweh and Holy Spirit is Yahweh, and you will see the divinity of the Holy Spirit throughout the New Testament. You know, there's literally passages where it's I think Hebrews chapter 3 where it says, as the Holy Spirit says, do not forget to enter the rest. That just came to me. That's not on the notes, I haven't got that verse for you. That just came to me because we just talked about the Shabbat, the Sabbath rest, didn't we? Yeah, but anyway, or in Acts chapter uh 13, it is where the Holy Spirit says, Set me apart, Paul and Barnabas, for the work I have prepared for them. And Jesus said, Do not blaspheme whatever you do, do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit, clearly showing the Holy Spirit is God, is Yahweh, is divine. And so, but people get confused and they get um that that sometimes you can fall accidentally into heresy, this modalism or Unitarian, which is this whole thing of I mean, I've met people literally that think I'm not saved because I believe in the Trinity, and they'll say Trinity is not in the Bible. Okay, the word Trinity isn't in the Bible, but this is a doctrine that's clearly seen throughout the pages of scripture. You can see it throughout uh as uh Yahweh uh appears to the people of Israel. The angel of the Lord here's another example. That's not saying that Jesus is an angel, the word angel is just melech, which is messenger, it's an office, it's a role, the word of the Lord, if you like, because there are oftentimes appearances of angels in the Bible, but there was something particular about the angel of the Lord that that accompanied Israel, for example, in the desert in the pillar of fire and the pillar of cloud, but it just means the messenger, the word of the Lord, if you like. So there are so many ways that there so many times you can see clearly. Hang on, if God is in heaven, how can he be stood next to Samuel? Uh or if nobody can see God and live, how how is uh Jacob wrestling with the with God? How can you know how can Joshua see the commander of the heavenly armies? This is clearly not just another melech and just another messenger or a servant of the most high.

SPEAKER_05 6:58

And Daniel, how well with Meshach, Shadrach, and Abedigo, who was the fourth person?

SPEAKER_04 7:03

Who was the fourth person? So there you go. But also, uh, what was I gonna say? Uh um Elohim. So here's another one in Genesis chapter one it says, uh, let us make man in our image. Now, some people would argue, well, that's talking about God with a host of heaven, you know, like the divine counsel, if you like, that you can see that uh throughout the scripture. Uh just for example, when he's saying, Who will entice King Ahab? Uh and a spirit of lying says, I'll do it. But anyway, I believe personally that's clearly pointing to the Trinity again. Let us make man in our image. Yes, God has his council, he has the hosts of heaven, he is Yahweh Savior, which is the Lord of hosts, but also he has that's his family in heaven, he has his family on earth, that's us. But there's something particular when he says, Let us make man in our image. Let us make man in our image. So the Holy Spirit is God, Jesus is Yahweh, the Father is Yahweh, they are each infinite, they are each immutable and divine, and they are the free, one being, although distinct. So Jesus is not the Father, is not the Holy Spirit, but all of them are Yahweh. You understand? I know you don't, it's hard. Yeah, just it's hard for me to do it in 10 minutes. But I'm gonna, I'll I think we'll have to do it as um Okay, here's Okay, Augustine said this. This is what Augustine, I think he said, like um he he said, he he he he said, uh so a person can have a thought, and that thought can become a word. And uh, but as soon as the word leaves your mouth, it's you know, it's distinct. But anyway, that's not a good analogy, I don't think. Um and it was another fella that said it's like uh a mum, a son, and a dad, they're all humans, so they're all the same nature. Father, son, old spirit, same lesson.

SPEAKER_05 8:48

We've actually tried and have something to explain it, don't we?

SPEAKER_04 8:50

Well, that's what we have to do, and I'll tell you, here's another analogy, okay. Uh, after all of this, fumbling around this, here's an analogy that might help you. This is one I like Neapolitan ice cream. Because they're very distinct. Strawberry, chocolate, vanilla. They're all ice cream, you understand? So it's I think water steam ice is not so good.

SPEAKER_05 9:08

I like, I like the analogy of um mind, body, spirit. Like we've been made in the image of God, and uh, we're all we are made up as one thing.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

That's got its issues as well, to be honest, my love. Sorry. That has got its issues as well. But anyway, so the the you can see Yeshua throughout the pages of the Old Testament, you can see Yeshua um making that huge I am statement, saying, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. It says in Hebrews, he is the image of the invisible God, and you can see the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit, and you can see the Holy Spirit in your life today, you can see it in the church where you see the church uh growing, where you see the church reaching the lost, where you see the church uh uh uh serving the poor and all of this, you what you're seeing is the Holy Spirit at work, because God's work never stops, Yahweh, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And so when you're speaking to a Muslim who are Unitarian, you see, here's the thing with the Trinity. Are you ready, my love?

SPEAKER_05 10:12

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

God doesn't create us to experience love because he needs because he exists eternally in this perfect relationship of love, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There is already subject and object of love, and it's always eternally existed. He didn't create us to experience love. Unlike if you're Unitarian, or if you are, say, a Muslim who clearly, if for God to experience love, he had to create. He doesn't need us to experience love, but he creates us from his love. Out of God's love, out of the love of that relationship, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, out of that flowed creation, out of that flows actually the church as well, which is why we exist in and from the love of God. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. So Christianity, let no mistake, let no one mistake it. This is a monotheistic religion, it's the three distinct persons in perfect relationships who share the same divine nature, the nature of God. If it helps you like body, soul, spirit, if you like, or uh uh uh not so much Wall Street Mars, but Neapolitan ice cream or whatever, but you're getting the idea, these are distinct natures, and clearly when Jesus says he is the only begotten Son, uh uh the only begotten son of the Father, that means that the gener that God the Father generated through his word, but his word is a being uh uh who uh is a person, the person of Jesus, separate but completely one and out of them, breathing the Holy Spirit. And uh it is deep, and I can't do it in ten minutes, and I'm and I'm gonna give up in a minute, but no, you're doing it uh it's great. How am I doing, baby?

SPEAKER_05 12:03

You're doing great, and I think it's so difficult because we always want to put our uh our ways are not God's ways, and we always like to put our own something that we can grab because so many people um will say to me, you know, do Christians worship three gods? Because we talk to Jesus, we also talk to God the Father and the Holy Spirit. So it's important for us to all understand we worship one God. Exactly, and here's the thing distinct persons, but all one.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

And here's the thing, Moloff, here's the thing. Uh uh, we we do uh and I said to you about those intertestimonial kind of like rabbis and teachers that were like there must be two Yahweh's going on here, we can't explain this. Well, there's the Jewish concept of it's a Hebrew word called Hevrayot, which is kind of like trying to explain the fact of God's presence on earth, even though he is dwells in heaven in the throne, yeah, and that that idea of the presence of God or or the uh manifestation of God being separate from God but God, there was an attempt, and you could see that, and I think actually Yeshua coming into the world and being rejected by a lot of the religious people of the day, kind of like put an end to the kind of like that thinking, but you see clearly that uh uh there is you can see Yeshua clearly a lot. Actually, this is gonna be one of our preaching series, I promise you this, because you can see Yeshua everywhere. When Mary walked in the tomb and she sees an angel at the head and the foot, what do you think that is? That is the mercy seat, that is the lid of the ark. I mean, that is, but anyway, we'll do that another week. You could tell the Trinity is a man-made, or it m because you wouldn't make it up like that, honestly. No, exactly. But it is divine, he's they've always existed. Father, son, holy spirit always will do.

SPEAKER_05 13:50

Yeah, amen. Thank you. That was really brilliant. Don't you just love that?

SPEAKER_04 13:54

Yahweh.

SPEAKER_05 13:55

Yahweh.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

That's the whole point, and it makes you understand Yeshua is God. Yeah, having a high Christology, Father, Son, High Spirit.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

You are here, there is no God besides you. You are here, the God of all, from age to age, you never change. You are here, your kingdom stands forever.