I thought we gave up on doing those manually.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say fibre energies. Fiber vibes.
SPEAKER_00We have managed the first point on our housekeeping, and it's 15 minutes into the recording, Georgia.
SPEAKER_02There were two points, also the Hungarian Revolution.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Yan Library Podcast with me, Adam Clevely.
SPEAKER_02And me, Georgia Denham. And this is our second attempt because the first time Adam caught me off guard by introducing himself as me.
SPEAKER_00I'll stop doing that. It's not fair.
SPEAKER_02No, no, it's it's fun. I like the energy of it. I just was not um I was not in the right place to receive it.
SPEAKER_00Not ready for a joke. I didn't have my sign up telling you that it was a joke.
SPEAKER_02So No, you didn't. For those watching the podcast, and maybe those listening, I don't know, they may be able to tell. Um we are not in our usual setup. We are remote uh today. Our scheduling didn't quite line up. Uh, and so we've had to take desperate measure measures. We've got pretty good signal. I can see you pretty well this time, but uh in the past maybe not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, some sometimes it gets a bit difficult, but hopefully everything will hold up and it's all brilliant. I mean, this is exactly the whole point of this podcast is it is a platform that is the the software we use is capable of of being remote and all the rest of it. And well, we're gonna talk about this at the end, but our next series, we're hoping to invite lots of people onto this podcast uh and talk about interviews and so on. So it better work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's good practice, I think, for us to do a couple like this. And if the format works, then maybe it will make things easier for us to record these other episodes um when it's just us as well. So let's see. Well, today um we had one topic in mind and then we shifted things around because I was going through some of our emails last night and found one that was um from a while back and we hadn't responded. And so today we're gonna talk about knitting in public. Um, which funnily enough, you mentioned software, Adam. Uh it's a bit deja vu, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00A little bit deja vu. Hopefully, this isn't some sort of cursed topic for us. Because we've recorded this one already. I mean, as a topic, knitting in public, we did.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So uh last season, uh last year, you may remember that we had the kind of game of wool, and then uh we also had uh peppered in only twice were these other alternative topic episodes, and then it proved that it was gonna be too much for us to do two a week. One of them that was supposed to be like episode six or five, or whichever way around it would be, was Knitting in Public, and we recorded it. And um what happened, Adam?
SPEAKER_00The audio just completely screwed up. It wasn't we and we weren't able to salvage it. And we only record audio once, so that was the end of it.
SPEAKER_02It was the end of it, and it was such a good episode, like it was such a good conversation. I think it's really where we found a kind of a rhythm and didn't get to do it. Um alas.
SPEAKER_00Luckily for us, we get to do it again. Though I I slightly worry because the other things we've got on our sort of agenda of housekeeping, I'm a little bit worried about how much time we're gonna have to talk about knitting in public.
SPEAKER_02Structure. Structure and calm, and we'll be fine. Just rattle for it. Yeah, so quite a few things on housekeeping. First thing, um, I I see some very lovely yarn on your microphone, Adam. Could you please tell me more about the yarn that is on your wonderful microphone?
SPEAKER_00Well, I was because we're because we're doing this remotely, I was able to use my woolen microphone setup, which I know and love, uh, and it's very popular. And I was about to pick a ball of wool, and then I suddenly realized that I should pick this billum yarn that I have. Um for a couple of reasons. One, it's the only Hungarian yarn that I have. Um is a Hungarian dyer. And I it's funny, whenever I've seen it at a yarn festival, I buy it because I can't resist it. And I haven't knitted anything with it until now, and I've also I've just started knitting with it, so not this specific skein, but uh so I'm very excited about that. Obviously, also, time of recording, it is Monday, the 13th of April. There were Hungarian uh elections yesterday, and I think most of the world is probably quite pleased about the result of that. Um, and that's worth celebrating and at least drawing attention to Hungary as a country. Country I absolutely love and feel passionately about. So um yeah, that there's a shout-out for Bill and Jarns as well.
SPEAKER_02When we came to the conversation, I was already thinking like, how can I shoehorn in a like yay Hungary mention and thought about Bill and Yarns and then turned up on the call and you uh already had it laid out. So I'm very, very grateful for that. I am, of course, married to a Hungarian, and over the weekend we were looking after my niece and nephew, and so being with them yesterday it was actually really emotional because my little niece and nephew get to grow up in a very different country now. That's something I posted on my story yesterday, and it's just really lovely. And Dima was very excited and moved. He worked out last night that Orban had been in power since he was in the eighth grade, and he had his uh finally did his PhD graduation on Saturday. So that's like a huge part of his education, and I think I seen a shift in him that I've never the whole time I've known him, he's been ashamed to be Hungarian, and um he feels very, very proud to be Hungarian today. So Yay! Yay Majar.
SPEAKER_00Yay.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, lovely.
SPEAKER_00So yay for Hungary. Uh next on the list is is housekeeping.
SPEAKER_02No, not yes, well that this is a housekeeping, sort of. It's just like a shoehorned housekeeping.
SPEAKER_00That was that was point zero, point one on the agenda um was the shush. Because we talked about last week getting rid of the shush, and there was uh fair to say, an outpouring of emotion said about how much people love the shush. And I've been a big fan of the shush. Like the first time I heard it, I remember I laughed.
SPEAKER_02But so last week, um, on the end of the episode where Adam's saying, Oh, because we were gonna re-re-record the end, I kind of looked at you and was like, What? But you tell her last week you really liked it. So I was like, No, like off. Like, no, that you we can say change it at the end of the season. It makes my work easier if I can just press a button and it's there as a template. I didn't want to change it. So let me clarify. So we received an email uh from a listener who is a librarian, and I'm gonna we're gonna read it out in a a second. But Adam, is that the reason that you'd said this last week? Had you read this email?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I had read the email. Okay. And I I and it resonated with me, and I just thought, yeah, let's well, let's just gently find a way away from from the shush. Because let me, I'm gonna, before we get any further conversation on it, I'm gonna read it out because I think otherwise people are gonna be lost. So we got this email from a librarian. We haven't been invited to share their name, so I'm not going to, but that they said, I'm a librarian, and the outro of every episode really me off. So much so that I've begun switching off before the end. Shushing in a library is such a tired trope. Yes, libraries have quiet sections, but they're also noisy, dynamic, and social places. I love the idea that Georgia's saying sh the end of every episode, but I can't unhear the negative stereotype that follows. I think I think maybe it should be a shush. Please, please, please, as someone who encourages crafting friends to listen to the pod, please stop the shushing. So, how do you feel about that email, Georgia?
SPEAKER_02Adam, very strategically, to try and make it more condensed, missed out the two very positive things in that email, which were starting with, I'm listening to the latest episode of the pod and have loved every episode. But since you've invited comment dot dot dot and also ended with PS, I love the reference lists, heart emoji. So please don't at this person.
SPEAKER_00Any any positivity that comes into my life just washes over me and direct criticism, that's the only thing I hear. Sorry.
SPEAKER_02I took this email very much as like a funny calling in, you know, the the calling out versus calling in thing. I've forgotten how the person with this pioneer of that, actually. It's very much that they deserve acknowledgement. So I will put it in the notes. But when I read the email, it was like it clicked. I didn't feel any offense. I didn't feel any like, I didn't equally didn't feel that much guilt. It was just like, that makes perfect sense to me. I love libraries, they're incredible dynamic community spaces. And straight away I was thinking about the Library of Birmingham opened in 2013. So, like two, three years before I moved there as a student. And it's the largest public library in the UK and the largest cultural space in Europe. It just suddenly made me think like, wait, of course. Like that's one of the things I love about libraries so much. And I don't know if I just watched Monsters Inc. University with the shushing librarian monster too close to making this or what. But it's because I just didn't know that this was a thing that off librarians and that people were actively trying to kind of get away from this idea that libraries were a quiet place. And so naturally I did a bit for Georgia and then found loads of really cool articles and things that were talking about the psychology of being silent in different spaces and what a space might do to kind of encourage silence and like the dangers of silence in libraries and the limitations on learning and engagement. Also, some really cool stuff on uh public consultation and library design and architecture.
SPEAKER_00Long story short, we're gonna change it or are we not changing it? Where is the where is the long research taken you?
SPEAKER_02I am completely convinced by this person. I was convinced even before I started reading up on it. I I think that it makes sense not to put that there when we've heard from someone who is in this field and points out valuable information. But I know that it's also really fun for people like people like the idea of it. Maybe people like the sassiness of it, the silliness of it. And I would like us to find an alternative. And I wanted to use this platform, this space, to raise the profile and understanding of libraries are dynamic, creative, community spaces, and we should all do that.
SPEAKER_00I will say I don't think we could manage to like we can't we can't address every problem in the world on this podcast.
SPEAKER_02No, but this is one we can.
SPEAKER_00I but I but I do think that uh if we're gonna assess if we've got library in the title, I think we do owe it to ourselves and librarians as well to come up with something. I think between the two of us, we can come up with something else that's funny.
SPEAKER_02Yes, but I would also be grateful for any suggestions. If everyone anyone has an immediate thought feeling suggestion, please do let us know.
SPEAKER_00A pound that you want uh us to drop into where all ears.
SPEAKER_02One small tiny thing. The Library of Birmingham, just my fun fact that I had prepared. Um, Library of Birmingham was designed by a Dutch architect, Francine Hauben, who Huben? Francine Francine Huben, uh, and she's also the architect for the current refurbishments of the New York Public Library and also the uh Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial Library in Washington, DC. There we go. Thank you. Thank you. That was your fun fact, Georgia. That was my fun fact. Oh, one sad thing though about the Library of Birmingham. Sorry, this is actually really sad. Um the council can't really afford to maintain it, so it's closed on Sundays. Even though that's probably like the best day for people to go and use it.
SPEAKER_00Um That's the library party day, isn't it, normally?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. Um anyway, that's that's issue two.
SPEAKER_00I've got a feeling that that I've I've got a feeling that wasn't that library wasn't that the one in Birmingham where I mean it was it was an earlier version of that library. There was a there was a I think it was a university level library that was done it was designed somewhere, I think it was in the UK, and the engineers and architects that built it hadn't factored in the weight of the books on the shelves and the building was unusable. I have a funny yeah I can't remember I can't remember which library it was.
SPEAKER_02It's the Birmingham City University Library, and I know about this because the Birmingham Conservatoire where I went to university was part of the umbrella of that group. The site of the original city library was knocked down and became Paradise Circus Precinct thing, um, and then moved to the Library of Birmingham. The old conservatoire was on that site, and part of our move to the new building near the Birmingham City University campus was that our library had to move into their library, and there were a lot of issues there. We lost our specialist music librarian, which was really sad. Yeah, that's the library I used to do my undergrad. They didn't factor in the weight of the books, and they had to redistribute all of the books in a weird way, and the stacks were really weirdly spaced out because it was gonna fall through the floor otherwise. I didn't realize that was a thing that people knew about. Uh I just thought we just knew about it.
SPEAKER_00Uh no, that was something that I was taught in my engineering degree because it was a major.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it really was. It really was. It meant that they had to cull a lot of the books that we brought into that library because they needed to streamline. Anyway.
SPEAKER_00We have managed the first point on our housekeeping, and it's 15 minutes into the recording, Georgia.
SPEAKER_02There were two points. Also the Hungarian Revolution. Okay. Uh not revolution, but end of the revolution. That's a different one. Well, Adam, uh, where are we moving to next?
SPEAKER_00What's point two on your agenda?
SPEAKER_02Well, it appears to be an errata, uh, Adam, on sustainability part two, uh, released on the 2nd of April.
SPEAKER_00Tone of your voices, it's my turn.
unknownMm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02As you all know, we like to joke and banter about um our sources and referencing. And I believe it was you, Adam, who called yourself a chatty bimbo, um, and that you should not be trusted for referenced sources because you're you were delivering opinions.
SPEAKER_00Do you need a source for me being a chatty bimbo? Is that what you're about to do?
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, no, no, no. That was your point. And as you said, you're the one with the opinions. So, anyway, hands up, this is not me saying I don't find fiber interesting. It is. It's just not my area of enthusiasm. So when we talk about fiber and fiber choices and um, I was gonna say fiber energies, but like fiber vibes, that's more your remit. Not that I have to let you do that, but that that's your thing. When I'm doing the fact checking, I tend to check the big facts because I don't know the sources well enough to. Like I don't really know what I'm looking for. And then the wonderful and highly respected Roxanne Richardson, who is on YouTube, does loads of tutorial videos, is very well known to me. She's taught me to do so much knitting. We found out recently that uh she's actually a listener of the podcast. So if uh if she's still listening, hi Roxanne. And she'd given us a shout-out recently, and we rewarded her or thanked her for her trouble with misrepresenting quite a bit of information about Merino and uh fibre length and staple length. And she actually very graciously and not in any kind of shady way, commented on the sustainability episode and gave us a bit of a um well, some more information correcting some of the the stuff. So how do you how how do you how how do you want to do this? Like, shall I read it?
SPEAKER_00And you're really mincing your words, George. Yeah, I mean just spit it out. She called out, I talked about the length of merino wool as being a longer fibre, and she called out it isn't a longer fibre, it isn't one of the longest breeds. Um and the the reason if you go to the longest breeds, there's a breed of sheep called um Lincoln Long wool, um which is which is 20 to 40 centimetres long wool. So there are these breeds of sheep which have wool which are extremely long and actually can be so long that they're difficult for woolen mills to uh to card. So they can be problematically long. Um and merino is regarded as a as a short to medium staple, actually. And merino comes in anywhere between about seven and eighteen centimetres. So long wool breeds can be twenty to forty centimetres. So I was completely wrong about the about length. So the r where that came from was that I was talking about Australian wool being softer because it has a longer staple merino, because the the ends don't poke if there aren't as many ends because the wool is longer. I mean it's interesting where it came from, because that came from a uh someone I regarded, someone who knows the Australian wool industry extremely well, and he I I guess he was trying to sell me on why Australian wool was Australian merino was better than any other merino. Because we were having a conversation about um uh South American breeds of sheep. Anyway, uh so that that's where that came from. But I I'd picked it up and I'd I'd used the information completely incorrectly. Um and um uh you know, I'd hold my hands up and say, yeah, I absolutely got that wrong. Interestingly though, I then Googled, like, what's the longest merino sheep? Uh how how long does the wool get? I was sort of looking for a ways uh where where is this? And there was there was a poor sheep called Chris that got left for five or six years in isolation, and the poor sheep nearly died because it was never shorn, and and so it amassed this fleece of about 41 kilos.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which which ended up with what is possibly the longest merino fleece ever, because that hit 42 centimetres as a result. But that's that's that's you couldn't do that because that's utterly cruel to animals. That poor sheep had had suffered an awful lot to to have that much wool on him.
SPEAKER_02But a fun fact.
SPEAKER_00Fun fun fact nonetheless.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I the reason I was sort of stumbling around that is because I'm not the fiber girl and it doesn't really permeate the same way as like some other things in craft do into my into my noggin. So um I I needed you to kind of talk through that because I I would just fumble around it. Something as well that Roxanne said that I'm by no means an expert on wool breeds, which is very gracious of her, but she said, but I am a spinner who often starts from raw wools in order to truly understand a breed's characteristics. And I feel like that kind of hands-on knowledge, we all have different contexts and different experiences for going into things.
SPEAKER_00I know that like spinning is a is a huge weakness of my knowledge area because it it's not something I've engaged with. It's not it just doesn't tickle me in the same way that knitting does. So I know that it's a bit of a blind spot. I'm very grateful for the better information from an expert. And I'm I'm I'm sorry that I I that I gave what I thought was an expert's view. I was obviously just wrong, and I should have I should have done a Georgia on it, and I didn't. Sorry, everyone.
SPEAKER_02I'm have you been interested in learning to spin?
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_02No. Okay, good. Well, not good, but I thought it was just me. Because there's so many people around me who are like, oh my god, I just can't wait till I can get a spinning wheel. I really want to spin, and I want to buy a fleece. Like that is a logical next step in their sort of crafting, knitting, yarn journey. And it it just doesn't appeal to me. Again, not to say it's not amazing, but it's like not where I want to move next. So I'm glad I'm not alone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like the there's different, different arts and crafts for everyone. Like um spinning isn't one that has has grabbed me, not yet. It might do at some point. You never know.
SPEAKER_02Who knows? Maybe when you start your old pack farm.
SPEAKER_00I'm moving on, by the way. Yes. Um did you see last week on social media? I I kind of was having a week off social media and then I turned Instagram back on and reinstalled the app, and then I was like, oh, I've missed quite a few things. One of the things that got sent to me was um Game of Wool have extended their application deadline.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. So Game of Will is back. We hadn't acknowledged it before, but you'd assumed that they would maybe not be doing it because the dates of filming wouldn't quite correlate. But it looks like they're doing it later on in the year and they've extended the deadline, which I mean, we can assume means they haven't got enough applicants, surely.
SPEAKER_00That's the only reason you do it, is they haven't got enough applicants. I will say, given we didn't cover it, what Game of Wall um have ended up doing is they ran they they opened up applications a month ago or so and a really tight deadline because they said basically you're filming Is it in May and June, I think, something like that. So you give they were giving about three months notice. Well, the applications were meant to be closed now, and then they were running auditions, and then after the auditions, you'd have potentially less than a month's notice to then that you're taking seven weeks off. So I think that's a major reason why they may be low on applications, because it's one thing about doing an application process into the following year, but doing an application in year where you're expecting to take essentially potentially take two months off work I think it's a it's it's a it's a big ask. I know the first first round I was told they got for the first season they had like 10,000 applicants. I can't imagine they've if they had 10,000 applicants, I can't imagine that they would have extended the deadline. I know that I I did see call-outs the previous week they were looking for more applicants from Scotland and Wales, presumably because they're trying to meet that they want enough people from those regions, because I know they try to regionally balance where um where contestants come from. So yeah, I thought that was interesting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean I we could just present this and it could sound like it's shady, and maybe that's where you're coming from, Adam. I don't know. Um I'm not trying to present any shade.
SPEAKER_00I'm just I'm just saying where it is. I mean, a lot of listeners came to us because we started uh lots of people. didn't like the fact that we started with Game of World, but lots of people did come because we were talking about Game of World. So I thought it was fair to acknowledge it.
SPEAKER_02No, it is I what I'm what I wanted to say is just that in Heart of Hearts, I want to see the show in time succeed and be something that I enjoy watching that actually represents the community and uh represents the craft. And our issues with the show have passed were because it we didn't feel that it was doing that very well. Uh it was never never straight frustrations with the contestants. So if you are thinking of applying and you're worried that we will chat about you, then maybe um Hold on, hold on.
SPEAKER_00I'm not having that. We've never chatted about anyone. That's what I mean.
SPEAKER_02We're not going to do that. We support the contestants. We bel we like the contestants. You can't say that, children.
SPEAKER_00I have major issues with the way the show was put together. I have major issues with the editing, the production, everything about it except the contestants.
SPEAKER_02But that's what I mean. If you're worried about that, don't worry, because we we we like the contestants. It's everything else. And if you want to go and be part of that journey, I commend you. And I I think that it's a positive thing. I I think that if you want to be part of turning this representation of our beloved craft into a more positive thing, then I I I commend you and I think it's a positive thing. That's all I meant.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. Just just remember on your application form, when you're saying, are there any adjustments you need for your knitting, just remember to make sure you have a chair with armrests on it, that you're not sitting on one of the sofas without any support for your arms.
SPEAKER_02And cubics needles. I do wonder what changes they're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00I'm fascinated. Also, all of all of the all of the application stuff, all of the posts that they put out on social media and stuff, have entirely been just uh knitting related. There's not a word of crochet on it. So I'm I'm fascinated to see that. Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I wonder if we start to see some of the uh gripes. Not saying it's us specifically, but there was a lot of response from the community, and I wonder if we'll see those things implemented. Um alas. The programme that shall not be named. I feel like we should have a code word, an official code word for it. One more thing on Game of Wall, actually. I did have someone message a while back saying that even the mention or thought that we might cover Game of Wall again was enough to make them unsubscribe. I don't think that we would do an episode by episode response. We might mention it here and there, but I think it was just it was quite a lot of labor to do it week by week.
SPEAKER_00I'd be interested in doing in doing something, but I don't know what format that's going to take. I completely agree. The way we the way we set out this podcast absolutely didn't work for either of us. But I'm I'm I'm sorry, for for one listener, I'm not changing the course of how I want to discuss things.
SPEAKER_02I it wasn't because of that one listener. I'd already been thinking like, yeah, we probably in the future won't do like full hour-long episodes that were longer than the episodes themselves discussing every element. And we probably learned lessons from that format. And if we did discuss it, it might be a bit different, is all I wanted to say. Okay, so end of uh housekeeping. Yay! Knitting in public. So we'd had this conversation before. We're having to have this conversation again, but actually, I think that it is vastly improved by a wonderful email that we've had. And you know, we you guys as listeners didn't even know that we'd had this knitting in public conversation, and yet we got an email with the subject line, Knitting in Public. So how perfect. So lovely email, and I'd actually responded last night. Um, but I'm just gonna lead away and let the conversation unfold. So, Adam and Georgia. First I want to say that I love your podcast. See, positivity. I have binged all of the available episodes over the past few weeks. Adam, in episode 16, you made a comment about talking to people in Malawi and elsewhere about being a man who knits. Could you give me some tips for having those conversations? You mentioned that they were making comments about it being a craft for women. How do you respond to that? I learned to knit many years ago out of necessity. My wife crocheted a pair of mittens for me, but the holes allowed too much cold air in. She had no desire to learn to knit at the time, so I had to learn and made my own mittens. They weren't perfect, but they worked. I fell in love with knitting then, but struggled with that false belief that it is only for older women and stopped for a long time. I ended up teaching my wife how to knit continental style, and she quickly became much better than I can ever hope to get. My wife and oldest daughter now operate a fiber arts store with some dear friends of ours, so I have been deeply involved with the craft for the past 18 months. I love the colours of the yarn, the textures, and the creativity it affords. I've started knitting again recently as a way to reduce my stress. I feel comfortable knitting at the store in front of others, but I can't seem to bring myself to knit in the wild. I'm not very good at it yet. I think that makes me a little uncomfortable to be in public. I've started to blog my journey back to knitting so I can share my experience and have some anonymity. I'll see if that helps. And they they apologised for grammatical errors, but they didn't need to. It's a lovely email. We won't name the person.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean it it's an interesting it's an interesting problem, and like I I do accept like doing something strange in a in a public place can be a little bit unnerving, and I guess it probably speaks to my self-confidence that I don't care about that. But um I like I when those well, I mean s the specific questions about like oh that's I I see your knitting, that's that's interesting, that's something that only women do. Like what when when I came across that you know, that wasn't in the UK, I do know that people have had that as a as a conversation in the UK, so it it just hasn't happened to me. And abroad, I feel like it's easier for me to just you know talk about the fact that well yes, it's interesting, isn't it? And why is it that it's a that's seen as a woman's craft and a woman's hobby. And if you look into the history of it, there there's a there's a there's really strong evidence as to why it has ended up being more the domain of women than it is for men. And I take an interest in that. It's not something which which makes me feel like I'm uh like I'm anyway in the wrong or doing something that's naughty or different or you know culturally inappropriate.
SPEAKER_02But how do you respond to people if they do give you about it?
SPEAKER_00I don't see it as c about it. Like I I it's someone acknowledging or asking that it's a you know, that it's something more to do with a woman's hobby than a man's hobby, that's the beginning of a conversation for me. That's not that's not a judgment. That's a you know, it's it's it's a statement of someone's position. It's a statement of someone's, you know, they're telling you something about their belief structure, which is that they they haven't ever come across men doing that hobby before. And that's a well, that's interesting. Isn't it funny? Yeah, turns out men can do it too. Like I it I I don't if you want to go to examples of it, there are examples of um men that have knitted, and you know, people talk about well, the the fishermen knit, for example. I say fishermen, yeah. You know. And I don't know how much of that is folklore. I also acknowledge that potentially, as a man, like you do it you are invading into an area which some women do identify as their own craft space, and that that that that is something which which they identify with. And I I know that's different for different people, but but there is a there's a word in Icelandic which I came across recently, which it's something to do with um like a a women's knitting circle. The word the word for a group of women knitting together also means going out for the night and getting drunk. Because it was a way it's a way of describing um the you know, w women or the way I had it explained to me, uh again, uh so I'm not really this out of the Oxford English Dictionary, uh, but the way I had it described to me was that um when women were uh wanted to go out with their friends, in in explaining to their husband where they were going, they were going it was a it was an excuse saying, I am going to do work in that I'm going to knit, whereas actually it was, you know, it was a way of going to see your friends, and so it was a way of a format of socializing. And the fact that you know i that is one one example, but the fact that you've got women use have used it as well as a as social context, as a as a and when you look at how knitting has progressed for women, there are you you know more about this than I do, Georgia, but how women have taken something that was functional and how it has transformed eventually into a hobby for some, that transformation as well speaks to something which is largely owned by women. And and as a man in that space, you're an outsider. But that's also what helps me be curious about it and be curious about people's attitudes towards it and want to have a conversation about it rather than I don't feel like I need to state any like ownership of it, or or like that it that that it that it has to be my hobby as well or anything. It's just something that, well, I've got hands on I can do that too. Like it's it well, I I mean I and in fact, as I say that, I've seen a video recently of someone successfully knitting with their feet. So who's to say who like who owns it? But I but I do recognise as well that there are there are some groups of women that do want to own certain parts of that more strongly, but but I don't think you're likely to be encountering those if you're knitting in a pub.
SPEAKER_02I think we've talked about this at other points, like arriving into a situation and r feeling that feeling that the space was actually, even on a subconscious level, was a a safe space or a shared space for women, even if it hadn't been defined as such. And then you arrive into that situation and there's some kind of awkwardness or there's some kind of push and pull where on paper you might be welcome, but maybe because they're just not even imagining or considering the idea that a man would show up, or instinctively might think, of course men can come and that's no problem. And yet when a man turns up, the dynamic shifts, or you don't have quite as explicit conversations or straightforward conversations. And how does that feel for you?
SPEAKER_00I think there's a different point from knitting in public because I think that's a in a way, I mean, although that might be in public, it's it's also in a in a more private space if you're if you're nitty if you're if you're going into a group. That is true. And and to be honest, like it it feels it feels weirder the first time than it does the hundredth time, but that's probably just like anything. Um I mean I I recently, you know, I run these retreats, make a getaway. Um we actually got a question from a guy saying, um men welcome on these two. And what made me laugh about that was that I remember going writing to a to a retreat years a few years ago that I was really interested in going on, and I that was the first question that I asked too. I said, Are are milk men welcome on this? Because I totally there's nothing on your website about it, but like I don't want to invade if it's actually not for men, and I'm totally fine with that, but I just do want to know before I book. Um and of course, make a getaway is absolutely inclusive for everyone, and it's something I I just you know I see less of it. I I think knitting in public, the interesting thing about knitting in public is that it starts conversations.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, and it's that general general experience and understanding of something, stereotypes, if you will, like we talked earlier about like the the library trait. I suppose, yeah, that there is absolutely that belief that knitters or that craft or that textiles is intrinsically female. Sorry, I don't I my brain is just like frazzled. I'm gonna put my glasses on.
SPEAKER_00Just for continuity there, I'm just gonna acknowledge that we're having a little cut and George has put glasses on. It's one of those things that if you're reading a book on the tube or you're reading a book on a train or you're reading a book in a waiting room or on a park bench, no one is gonna like very rarely is someone gonna stop you and say, Oh, that's an interesting book. Can I can I ask you what's happened in this chapter, or why are you reading that book? That doesn't happen. Well, my understanding of social norms is that doesn't happen very much unless someone recognises the book or the author, maybe. Then you've got, you know, you've got a conversation starter. The big difference with knitting is that as soon as you take your knitting out, people see you doing something and are like, oh, there's a conversation starter. And they either feel you get the people who think I can make a clever comment, and they're the people that they want to make a clever comment. They're walking down the street looking forever for like, where am I going to make my next funny comment? And there's also people that just want to have a chat with you. And because you're knitting, you are open, you you create a more open space for that. And as a, as a as a man, absolutely, you create you're inviting the uh whether you want to or not, you are absolutely inviting the conversation starter. What I would say is if you want to move away from that, if you got want some advice on that, if you want to knit in public and not get asked a question, stick headphones on. And I promise you, it it cuts down 90, 95% of all questions or interruptions in public, stick headphones on, you won't get asked questions. Oh, I mean, I I I say that, now everyone's gonna go and try it and find out you will, but it it it massively reduces it.
SPEAKER_02I will say, as a as a woman, when I'm in situations and I don't really want people to come and chat me up, uh that that does work. That does work. Um so maybe if you don't want people to come chat you up about your knowing, then you can you could try that. That's like a a a tip of like the by the principle of universal design. It helps everyone. Um I think it's nice to think of it as okay, someone's showing this interest or engaging with you. Maybe even if they meant it as a as a shady comment, that you can almost reframe it for yourself and you can twist it around and be more positive in the response and almost as if you didn't recognize that someone was giving you a little bit of a dig. It's got this big uh long history and association with women, that that's not something that you're shying away from, um, that you're acknowledging that and acknowledging that you're maybe not a part of the predominant gender that is involved in in knitting, but that's okay and that's not an issue. I I suppose it comes back round to that question of intent. Like, is is someone being with you? It was ages ago before the podcast. I think it was like last summer, we were sat having a chat, and you told me about you were knitting in a pub of an evening, and they were these drunk guys who wanted to talk to you about your knitting.
SPEAKER_00It wasn't just they wanted they wanted to talk about my knitting, they wanted to knit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And when you told me this story, I was getting the vibe that your feelings were like, ah, sticky drunk people on my yarn, but also fun. And when I was hearing this story as a woman, I was like, drunk men. Ah. Um, and so there was more of a question and a feeling of like personal safety and a- Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And this is this is where this is where our experiences are so vastly different. Because as a straight white man, I just, you know, I can I was sitting in a somewhere between a pub and a club. Like it was after normal closing hours. It was probably midnight. I was sitting there with a pint of beer with my knitting in the corner, just happily knitting away. And these two drunks come up to me, and like they they look for somewhere to sit down, they sit down next to me, and then they just start talking and then saying, Oh, give us a go. Like, I'll let I won't I won't mess anything up. Like uh just give me a knit. You teach me how to do it. And you're right, my concern was all about, well, no, because I can see you're spilling your beer and you can't you you can't do anything. I'm not giving it away.
SPEAKER_02The fact that you took that face value and you didn't take it as some kind of, I don't know, hate crime.
SPEAKER_00Uh it's but but but also you know, I that that is again this where our experience is so incredibly different because uh uh as as the guy that I am, I don't get hit on in pubs. Like it's just not part of my world experience, let alone anything else that goes on more negatively, you know, out outside of that. And that's your experience as a as a woman is is massively different from from mine there. And that probably influences very heavily the amount of confidence I have saying to those people, you know, gently pushing them aside and saying, No, I'm not doing that.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's the situation knitting in public. I mean, me personally, like I wouldn't be on my own in a club or a pub close to midnight on my own, regardless, let alone knitting. So it's like it's a very different conversation. Though the knitting in public, the perception thing, I do relate to you on the, oh, isn't that a women's thing? Because I get that a lot about age. It's sometimes it's you know, people looking to be sassy, and sometimes it's actually people just working from the experience that they have, and they go, I I remember being in a taxi once and I was, you know, knitting my little sock. And this guy said, Wow, I didn't even know that people knitted anymore. I've not I've not seen anyone do that since my grandmother in in like the 70s. It was like an older guy, and he'd you know, he'd not seen it and he didn't know it was a thing. And there there was a place where I could get offended about that, but actually it I don't think it was coming from that place. It was coming from like, wow, wow, you you're knitting. And he thought that in some way that was an extraordinary thing that I was doing that. And like you say, it reveals people's in inner structures, their inner thought processes. So if you have an opportunity to challenge that, and you know, even just by gracefully accepting what the thing that they've said.
SPEAKER_00I'm so pleased you said that because I I I thought you were about to say I was really offended that he said I was old and I was gonna pick you up on that saying he he's not saying that because it's it's just genuine. I think for a lot of people it's just genuine intrigue that they see, I don't know, what's something else that you could see someone doing that you hadn't imagined been doing for the last hundred years. If someone was setting up a letter press or something, you'd be you'd say, Well, I thought I thought printing presses, I thought we gave up on doing those manually quite a long time ago. But you know, someone is there keeping it alive.
SPEAKER_02And also when people say that I'm young, it means the retinal's working.
SPEAKER_00Which which product placement is that, sorry?
SPEAKER_02Oh, no, no, no, it's it's nothing in particular. I use a range, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00Early on when I started on uh out on Instagram as well, I think I got a lot of um a lot of assumptions, certainly in my DMs about um about my sexuality as well. Like that was something that that was something that came up too. And again, that that was something as well with I it's not something that's knitting in public, it was it was something that was very much associated with Instagram. But again, it was it's people's presumption about um about knitters. And um the presumption was that uh that I was gay because I was because I was knitting, and that came across very strongly in um in DMs that I had early on. But again, I I find that um I find that interesting rather than anything to be upset about. I guess that's the that's the attitude that I carry forwards and that and how I try and interact with people, is that I'm always just interested in why did someone say that, unless it's just outright offensive, but I honestly I've knitted in public so many times and I've never been no one's ever said anything offensive to me about it. Q a week of me going out knitting in public and being shouted at.
SPEAKER_02Weren't you at a pub once, now that you have brought up uh sexuality, because I wanted to ask you about this story, but I I wasn't sure if you were you were gonna acknowledge that. And you were somewhere and you asked if for a recommendation or a a place to go. Where were you in like deepest, darkest Devon or something?
SPEAKER_00It was. I thank you for reminding me about that story. Do you think I'm alright to tell it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because it's it's it's interesting, and we had a very fruitful, interesting conversation from it as well.
SPEAKER_00We did. I mean, it gave me so many fascinating conversations as a result. Yeah, so I was I was sitting there having dinner, uh, and I was by myself, and two couples came in. They were they were really, they were really drunk at that point. And they were full of banter, they were having the most wonderful evening. Uh they they're just so full of good humour, but they had way too much. Anyway, um at the end of the evening, I thought, well, if anyone's gonna know like where's a where's a good pub to go, and it'll be somewhere that these people know. We talked plenty about knitting in in the in the intervening time. And they uh and as I was getting up to go, I said, Is there are there any are there any bars you'd recommend around here? And one of the guys just says, um, Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, we don't have any of your sort of gay bars around here. And and I was and the and the surprise to me was that that there was nothing in our conversation to go on that that was the bar that I was looking for, which which I wasn't. The only thing to go on was the fact that I was knitting. But it was you know, there are so many good things about that as well as some bad things. The wonderful thing is I was in an environment, obviously, where that was just it was just a fine thing to just have a chat about and like like someone trying to be helpful and just saying, well, look, it's a small local town in the middle of nowhere, we don't have gay bars, like find that we're just openly talking about sexuality in that way. Certainly go back 20 years and that wouldn't have happened. On the other hand, I do feel slightly negatively that you want to draw conclusions about it's like if you saw someone knitting, you automatically assume that they should be an old lady. That's not that's not true. And and the-and the same is true, it doesn't-it doesn't define you in any other ways. It doesn't define who you are in any way.
SPEAKER_02And it's stereotyping in a damaging way and limiting for people who do identify in in a particular way. I think at the time we talked about how you know someone thing you're gay, I remember when I was at school, and that was still very much like a thing that you people would say to you as a negative. It's funny because I grew up in a very like affirming situation where if I was gay, it wasn't a problem. So I was almost kind of confused when I got to school, and people were like, Oh, you're gay. And and they meant it negatively. And I didn't get it because I didn't associate being gay with being a negative. But it was coming from a very, I mean, it was a very working-class area and um very industrial area that still was holding on to a lot of those feelings. And from my understanding now, and like when I go back home, it's times have changed and shifted, even in the last 10, 15 years since I've been in secondary school. So, I mean, transparently wise, it's not that I've not said this or acknowledged this, like, you know, like you say, people assume sexuality. I'm not straight. I I'm uh I'm married, I'm married to a man, but I'm I identify as being queer. And um yeah. So uh I probably should have prepared a more eloquent way of coming out, but but the thing is, I grew up, I didn't even have like a coming out because it was so normal in my family, and so it wasn't a negative. And then you get I got to um school, and then suddenly that was being labeled up. And I was like, well, yeah, I am. What's the problem with that? And it was it's that question of intent. Like that was being it's I'm I'm not saying that it's um oh, it's okay for people to use that negatively because it's not actually a negative thing, but it's it's a question of intent. You know, when when that guy in that bar was saying, Oh, I don't think we've we haven't got any gay bars here, I'm sorry. Were they looking for a very roundabout way of trying to be inclusive, of helping you feel welcome and say, Oh, I'm really sorry, we we actually don't have any gay bars here.
SPEAKER_00100%, 100%. It was melt in a in a in a nice and genuine like he was he was being thoughtful about how he was positioning that. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02But then in a weird kind of backhanded way, it's like, but you can't go to normal bars? But then I don't think that's what he was saying either. He was just trying to tend to what he thought your needs were and what he with maybe his limited interactions with or his limited understanding, thought that a gay man would have to go to a gay bar. I I don't know. It I wasn't there. But unpacking that situation from a from my very limited queer perspective, I would like to acknowledge that I very much passed as a straight woman. I have that privilege, you know?
SPEAKER_00So But that's exactly it. Like I and I acknowledge like I'm in a very privileged position in so many ways that when when I do come across comments or commentary, there's a lot of there's a lot of privilege embodied in my ability to be able to just treat that with good humour, with uh, you know, with inquisitiveness, you know, just just to be able to engage someone because on on in the most part, my experience allows me to do that, and I don't I I totally acknowledge that definitely isn't the same for everyone. And so I'm i in a way, maybe I'm an appalling person to ask about what's it like knitting in public, because my experience of it is is probably so very different from so many other people's. But I would say for the most part, I've always been able to treat it with good humour and and like in in general, people are just fascinated by it. And if you treat it as fascination, I just I just I I'm also someone that loves educating people, so that you know I just see it as another opportunity to educate people. When I don't want to educate people, I stick headphones on. Uh you know, I say, if you're interested in knitting, go and see my Instagram.
SPEAKER_02Lol. Little business cards. Shifting tack here a little bit about knitting in public and the appropriateness of when you can knit in public and when you can't, business meetings, work meetings, all these kinds of things. My research group, very used to the idea that I focus a lot better if I've got a little stockinette project on the go. And so it's not that unusual. But when we have our coffee morning and we have a guest there, I do see sometimes that it's not putting people off, but that they're like, oh, she's knitting, odd. But then I'm I'm very, very comfortable in that environment. So I'll often be there in you know, leggings. And if I've got like a bad period day or something, I've got like my my hot water bottle, and I'm just, you know, I'm very used to it. And that's a fairly casual environment. Contrasting that with perhaps a more formal situation, it was Dima's graduation at the weekend, and I was sat in Senate House and he was getting his degree. The two times I've been in Senate House for graduations, both times, I have been sat in front of the live stream camera that also takes the pictures of the graduation thing. And I was expecting to be able to sit there for like an hour and a half knitting my little sock and waiting for, you know, everything's in Latin. It's like this really long, very quiet, boring situation. Um, it's not boring, it's a very special moment. Um, Deems was in the last little cohort of three colleges, and my dad and I were sat right front and center. We are in everybody's graduation pictures. Like everyone's.
SPEAKER_00No knitting.
SPEAKER_02Well, no, I didn't because I thought there was gonna be another row of people. But the funny thing is that I prepared myself to knit. I had my coat on. I was knitting colorwork socks, so I put one ball of yarn in this arm of the coat and one ball of yarn in the other arm of the coat. And then they asked everyone to stand up for the entrance of the vice chancellor and everything. And they start wandering in. And I was like, oh no, okay. Uh, and so I just sort of clamped down like a chicken on my arm so that the balls didn't fall down. I thought, no one's coming to sit in front of me. And I had to sit there the whole time with these knitting needles just like sort of clutched and pressed to my stomach. Um, because I was attached on both sides.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. Did you tell me, did the balls of yarn, did they go through your sleeves of your coat out through your wrist?
SPEAKER_02I I got it right in the wedge and I just was like, right, chicken time. Um and yeah. But that's happened to me twice now, where I've been sat in this one section, and they give you a little warning at the beginning when they say, Everyone in this section, just bear in mind, uh, think about what you're doing. You're on camera and you're going to be on everyone's mantelpiece for the next 50 years. Um but it is lovely because Dima's graduation picture also has me and my dad in it, which is nice. So very cute. But I I don't know. That is one of the rare situations where I've decided, okay, I'm not gonna knit here. Because generally I've knitted at formal dinners.
SPEAKER_00When we've talked about this, you've you've knitted during concerts as well. Have you? Oh gosh, yeah. I've got a funny one about that, actually. Wh where you're where you're you use quiet needles and you're you're very quiet about it, but you're not disturbing anyone. So I also there was a concert in Ely Cathedral a little while ago that I went to, and I knitted through the whole of that concert as well, because I was knitting in a place where none of the performers could see me, and I wasn't disturbing anyone else around me, and I, you know, I probably knitted at half the speed I normally would, because I was doing it very slowly and carefully, because I knew no room for mistakes, no room for dropping anything, but you know, why not? But I won't knit if a performer can see me or if I'm gonna be disturbing someone else.
SPEAKER_02So I agree with that. I won't knit if I am disturbing someone else. Generally, performers speaking as a perfor performer myself, it's weird. I'd not really considered it from that angle. Maybe because I myself would be like, oh, a knitter, um, and wouldn't mind. But yeah, I suppose I wouldn't want it to be visually distracting. So I'd want to be like maybe not front row. And that was the thing with the pictures, that even if I was on front row at the graduation, I didn't want to be there without people in front of me covering my hands. I remember early on when I was knitting, I hadn't quite caught on to like the noise that my metal needles were making versus other ones. And so there was this contemporary music festival I went to where everyone was being very polite and like didn't say anything. And then I found out at a certain point in the week that everyone, well, there was one of the professors was like, Yeah, well, they do make a little bit of a clacking sound, um, which is maybe a bit disturbing in quieter pieces. And I hadn't even really clocked up, it was audible to other people, despite being very having very sensitive hearing. And that was like mortifying for me, especially someone who's, you know, got a degree in contemporary music. Like, I I hated that idea.
SPEAKER_00No, but the thing is you don't, as a knitter, you stop hearing the clack of the knit the needles because your brain just filters it out because it hears it constantly. So that's why you don't hear it. I don't I don't think metal needles are acceptable in a in a public quiet space.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, exactly. And so I learned my lesson very quickly with that. And once I'd like heard and acknowledged it, because I hadn't knitted with wooden needles before, um, once I realized there was an alternative, I was suddenly like, I can't ever go, I can't really go back to metal needles, with the exception of like uh the Addie Wonder socks. I like those for colour work, but I I won't knit with metal needles anymore. I do have a funny story about knitting in concerts, though. So my bestie is a disability researcher, disability history, and she's deaf. And it's one of the reasons I feel very passionately about um having transcripts available for the podcast. So we went to this concert. We were with my my mum and my stepdad actually, and we had a spare ticket, and we'd maybe been friends about a year at this point. I didn't know whether or not it was like the right thing to do to invite my deaf friend to a concert. But she was living in London at the time. We were down in London, and my parents said, Oh, well, you know, if you've got any friends, you could come use this spare ticket. And I thought, well, Kirsty, but you know, am I supposed to invite my deaf friend to a concert? I don't know. So I called her and I video call because she's lip reading, and I said, I don't know if this is offensive. I'm really sorry if it is. But um, would you like to come to a concert? We've got the spare ticket, it's at the Barbican. And it was the Cronus Quartet, who are a really well-known contemporary quartet. You've probably in various bits and bobs, maybe even heard their music. And it was their birthday concert, like celebrating, I want to say 40 years or something like that. Yeah, she came along. It gave me a really interesting insight into how musical events are accessible and inaccessible. And um, she doesn't have a cochlear implant, but she does wear herring aids, so she could like mix in with a loop and stuff. Um, the tea loop. So I I I was knitting with my wooden needles in my customary way that I would in a concert, uh, that it's not disturbing. Um, but I I I offered my friend a fidget toy, um, like a little fidget cube thing. Um, and because she's deaf, she didn't hear that it was making clickety-clackety sounds. And I hadn't, because I normally knit, I don't normally have fidget toys in concerts. So I hadn't realized that uh it was clickety-clickety. And I was getting evils from like everyone around me. My friend was like completely oblivious to this, had no idea, just enjoying the concert, enjoying the visuals. And so I realized that everyone was looking at my knitting and thinking that the clacking was the knitting. So even after I stopped, the people immediately around me, I had to stop knitting because there was an association of the sound. And then in the the the second half, we actually moved seats because there were some available, and so thankfully we we moved to a different location. But I had to uh I had to tell Kirsty, like, right, uh, you can't hear it, but that fidget toy, I'm gonna give you a different one because it's really noisy and everyone is shaming me for knitting. So we switched to the city.
SPEAKER_00I need to be able to keep knitting in peace. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly. So people hear different sounds and they hear different things. I think as a neurodivergent aid, um, or as something that can help some people with their focus and give them like that little bit of extra stimulation to be able to enjoy something. I will say that since I've been knitting, I enjoy concerts a lot more. And I l enjoy contemporary music a lot more. And I think um I didn't I love contemporary music. It's it was my jam for for years, it still is. There is something when I'm able to be there and be more present, like if I was in a meeting or uh if I was doing some work, it really does help me. And it I feel more engaged, I feel more present um because I've got that extra thing to do with my hands.
SPEAKER_00So I'm gonna have to talk about knitting in meetings and at work another time because we are out of time for recording today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we're gonna have to wrap this up. But we should definitely come back to that because I have many thoughts on on knitting in meetings, um, which are just gonna have to wait. And I'm sorry about that. Should we talk very quickly about what's coming up in our next episode and next series? Because this is the Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So we're gonna have a little bit of a break, a bit of a pause um before things.
SPEAKER_00That's for a few weeks.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh I've gotta figure out my PhD again, please.
SPEAKER_00Well, so within the next series, we are going to do some interviews with other people. Um and some of those we're going to do solo as well, which which uh might enable if I can do one or two of them without Georgia and I can then edit them, then it does mean that Georgia can get on with a bit more of her PhD. That's the intention anyway. But we also want to do an episode where you get to ask us questions. So if you've got questions that you want to ask us, then do drop us an email if there's something, if there are topics that you would like us to cover. Either topics you'd like covered for a whole episode, or specific questions you'd like us to ask one another during a uh a sort of more interviewing one, but you're interviewing us. Um also if there's any suggestions for people that you are desperate for us to invite onto this podcast you'd like us to interview, then uh we're all ears. We have a long list of people of art that we've composed anyway. Um we'd love to hear your thoughts and suggestions too.
SPEAKER_02Um it's it's always good to have interview ideas, topic ideas, um have a big long list, and and sometimes they get reordered and we we do things when we're feeling in the in the zone for it. So like today, we weren't planning on doing knitting in public, but we are today. And um, so having those suggestions would be really, really great. And please, please, if you have any pun ideas for an outro, very welcome. Very welcome.
SPEAKER_00We won't shush them.
SPEAKER_02We're not. I it took me a second to process that. Don't bring the trope back.
SPEAKER_00When am I allowed to make jokes, Georgia? Oh, when I've got the sign, sorry. I should have I should have been illustrating a sign whilst I've been sitting here.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much for this chat. That's it's sort of been meandering. I fear that we sort of front-loaded the planning on the housekeeping to make sure we definitely got through all of these points and then got to the knitting in public chat and then just went bling. We maybe should have had more structure there. So, yes, you will be having another episode at some point on um working and ninth-knitting in professional meeting situations.
SPEAKER_00If you happen to come across this podcast, just listen to this episode for whatever reason, then don't forget to subscribe. And if you're already subscribed, then share it with a friend.
SPEAKER_02We try to make this episode self-contained, but we're trying to, sort of. So I imagine you can probably skip certain topics or send a certain topic to a friend. We're seeing more of that in our listener stats are sort of like pinging about a lot more.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much for listening. You've been listening to the Yarn Library Podcast with me, Adam Cleavely.
SPEAKER_01And me, Adam Cleavely. You've been listening to Yarn Library Podcast with Adam Clevely at Cleavely Knits, and me, Georgia Denham at Tulipole. If you enjoyed this podcast, please like, share, and subscribe. And if you didn't, it's a Yarn Library.