Have you ever felt tokenized as an Estonian knitter as someone in the craft?
SPEAKER_03Yes. I think it's only been one time. I have two sets of national costume that fit me, and I had brought both. And the person who was running it, she just said, Oh, we'll just mix the two. And I was so I was sitting, she's like, We're sitting down, no one's gonna see. And I was like, I know. I think threw it off also because I was in full regalia, and the person interviewing me was sitting next to me in like regular clothes. It was very night and day. It's only happened once.
SPEAKER_00Hello and welcome to Yarn Library with me, Adam Cleavely, the podcast where I talk to fascinating people in the fiber world about knitting, creativity, community, and the stories behind the stitches. Pick up your needles, pour a cup of tea, settle in, and welcome to the Yarn Library. Hello, and welcome to Yarn Library with me, Adam Cleveley. Today's guest is Alex Bird. That's Alex with a K and Bird with a Y. Alex is an incredible designer and teacher, known for her use of traditional Estonian techniques in knitting. She's the author of two books and has taught countless knitters some of the beautiful techniques of Estonian knitting. And she's done so all over the world. In fact, Alex taught me how to use Estonian inlay as a knitting technique, which later featured on my heavy metal jumper. Alex is very much part of the international knitting scene, and her next adventure takes her to Australia where she'll be teaching. I'm delighted to have Alex on the podcast today to share her unique perspective on the heritage of craft, the differences she observes while teaching in different parts of the world. Alex, thank you very much for joining.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for having me, Adam.
SPEAKER_00Did I get all that right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah?
SPEAKER_00I was desperately worried I'd miss the book or something.
SPEAKER_03I mean, technically I have like a previous one that's a self-published one, but it's not as like major as the other two. So, no, you're good.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. Well, I I feel like I feel like I want to go back a little bit to the first time we met because I'm I'm showing on camera here, but I managed to find, I say I managed to find, I know where I keep this very well. I Alex taught me to knit. I went to classes with Alex in New York a couple of years ago, maybe three years ago. And uh I went to a class with Alex, we met, and she taught me, yeah, the techniques which I'm not wearing on my on my on my on my wrist.
SPEAKER_02I love it.
SPEAKER_00How many countries have you taught in, Alex?
SPEAKER_03I don't know. I probably do a rough count. Let's see US, Canada, UK, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Estonia, Australia. At least ten. There's probably a few I've missed, but at least ten.
SPEAKER_00That's pretty good going.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Where's where's been your favourite?
unknownOh god.
SPEAKER_03They're all really different. I've enjoyed, I've taught in Australia once before. I've enjoyed teaching there because I think everyone was just so excited and it was contagious because they kind of feel like they're the forgotten part of the knitting scene. I also enjoyed, I think which was like a challenge for me was actually Portugal because they all do Portuguese style knitting, and I had to adapt the braids, which you've done a class with me for Portuguese knitting, and I don't know how to do Portuguese knitting. So that was a really fun challenge, but they were so lovely. Also, it's just beautiful there. So it's hard to pick one. I feel lucky to at least travel to places and get to teach. So just see different parts of the world and different styles of knitting, whether I get a chance to do it myself, but I get to see it in classes, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean I noticed you've got a heavy schedule in Australia. I counted on your website. You've got 27 events in Australia coming up, July and August this year. That's quite a lot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, going to Australia, it's like one, it's a long distance to fly there, and it feels longer this time because I'm flying from Australia instead of the UK. So when I do go, I kind of have to pack it in also because I have to get a work visa, so it can't look like I'm a lazy person. Like, I'm just going on holiday. So I do pack it in. It's always entertaining filling out the visa application because I'm like, oh, I'm teaching knitting workshops and I have to list every single one and what they're about. Like the poor person reading this. I hope they love knitting. But yeah, I pack it in. I usually do always include some days off, so I get to do touristy stuff too. But yeah, it is it's a bit full-on.
SPEAKER_00It's a that's a heavy schedule.
SPEAKER_02Every weekend.
SPEAKER_00You said you notice a lot of differences between between different countries, like what makes countries different to teach in, other than I mean Portuguese knitting is so radically different.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you get Portuguese knitting. Norway, when I've taught there, they do a Norwegian pearl, which isn't so unfamiliar to me because my mum actually does Norwegian pearling. I don't. So I have seen it, I have tried it, but I would say probably the biggest difference is learning styles. So depending if you're from a culture that has a knitting background, so like Northern Europe, like where I am right now, and say is a strong knitting culture, so people learn in school, so you've kind of got a foundation, and then they tend to be really fast knitters, they don't need that much to get them going, and they're just off to the races. Whereas and they're the ones who've kind of had knitting in school pretty much knit similarly. If you go, like I would say UK, Australia, Canada, US generally, you get a mix of people who've learned from a family member, a friend, maybe they learned in school, or they've learned off of YouTube or a book, so it's quite a mix, so you're kind of dealing with lots of different learning styles in one environment, which I sound I like a challenge, so I always say like nobody kits. There's so many ways to do the same stitch pattern, depending on how you move the yarn. And for me, it's quite fun to just I get to experience it and adapt. So it's like a puzzle, someone who knits backwards, left-handed, Portuguese, whatever you throw in the mix. But I would say it depends kind of like how you've entered knitting. Your journey, that kind of changes how a workshop is. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_00So you see more consistency in the style of knitting in countries where it is taught in schools, because they're all, I presume everyone basically does get taught the same way at five years old, and therefore that tends to stick.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, pretty much they're like consistent. There's some variation, but not a lot. So they're pretty comfortable with basics, and so they don't, I would also say it's kind of a little bit of stereotype, but mostly like Northern Europe, we're introverts, so none of them will like necessarily ask questions at the start. They'll be like, I'm gonna try and figure it out. And if I come around, they're like, Is it okay? And I'm like, Yes. But because they have a baseline, they just kind of get going and they they're also used to patterns and things where the instruction is quite skimmed down because everyone started with a foundation in school.
SPEAKER_00I mean, because I I imagine if everyone gets taught in school, that presume does that introduce more men into it? Does that mean that there are more men coming to your classes or more younger people coming to classes in northern Europe?
SPEAKER_03Oddly enough, no. So I would say I don't have any men in workshops in northern Europe. I've only really had men trying to think, I think only in the US. Oddly enough.
SPEAKER_00Really?
SPEAKER_03I would have counted you, but you came to New York to take a class with me. So that kind of negates that. But yeah, oddly enough, in the US is the only time I have had men in my workshops. And then I had I did a retreat here in Australia last month, and I had a man come. He's American and Greek, so he's kind of in both categories, but yeah, generally, it's been very specific to the US that I've seen men.
SPEAKER_00That's fascinating. What about what about ages? Sorry, I cut you off there.
SPEAKER_03Ages, yeah. I would say met I definitely get more men than I think some other designers because I do I'm nosy, I do ask, and I think because I'm someone who's very interested in like techniques, because I find if I do a lot of stock net, I get really bored. So I get people like it's not uncommon for me to get men because it is like the mechanics of it, which I think is a draw. Demographic-wise, I would say generally overall, most workshops tend to be kind of age 50 plus. I would say it is shifting globally, it is starting to shift, but I think it's taking time. Like some events definitely have a younger crowd than others. So I'm teaching in Finland in a couple weeks, and I last taught there three years ago. Yeah, three years ago. That definitely has like a slightly younger audience, but I would say the youngest I have are probably my closer to my age. So I would say like in the 30s, don't get a lot of like those in the 20s. I did see a bit of that. This year at meeting in New York, they were starting to get some younger crowds, but yeah, it's by and large, it skews older, but I have seen it shift over time to more younger crowds coming through, but it depends on the event.
SPEAKER_00Do you have any particularly memorable classes, any particularly joyful moments in a class? Is there one class that you've taught which particularly stands out?
SPEAKER_03I feel like so much. One that really stood out. I don't know, I there's like probably a few, but it's hard to like tell. I would say Portugal was fun because I had to teach basically a room of Portuguese knitters how to do braids, and it was like reverse engineering on the spot, which was hilarious and also slightly stressful in my program. I've not done Portuguese knitting, how are we gonna do this? So I was getting a crash course of Portuguese knitting while teaching, which was great fun.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna make an assumption here about why that is particularly difficult, and I can because I'm referencing the braid literally on my wrist. So I remember knitting this, and one of the difficulties with it is that it twists and twists and twists, and you've got the yarns going round and round each other, and then you can unwind them. But with Portuguese knitting, I'm guessing, because that yarn goes around your neck and over your or or you know, or through a pin on your on your on your chest, that means that opportunity to twist and untwist becomes really tricky.
SPEAKER_03That becomes tricky, but it also was maneuvering the yarn because with Portuguese knitting, for them, purling is easier than knitting because they're predominantly working from the wrong side when they're knitting in the round, which with a majority of the knitted braids that have twisted floats, you're purling from the right side. So we were having to adapt that of going, like, okay, yeah, you can still purl the way you want to, but we need to like flip the fabric almost and work the other way around. So it was like working on the spot, which I enjoy because I feel like I get to do something new, and for me, teaching workshops is like I'm learning new stuff because there's someone who's approaching how to do a pearl stitch or nit stitch different than me. So how to figure it out to make it work, but also how people interpret using these techniques or looking at samples and going, This is my favorite sample, this is my favorite brain. Like, oh, I have a new appreciation for the thing that I have stared at probably 20 plus times. Don't think about.
SPEAKER_00So you recently moved back to Estonia or you moved to Estonia. I don't know if you have you lived in Estonia before. You describe your heritage as US Estonian and Canadian.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I am an odd mix. So no, I have not lived in Estonia before. My mom's side of the family are all here in Estonia, apart from my mom and my uncle. My uncle lives in Canada, my mom still lives in the US at the moment. For certain generations of Estonians, they kind of understand my background. Is it it's unique for some people, but it's also not super odd. My grandparents left Estonia the start of the Second World War in various routes. They met and married on their third date in London, moved to Sweden where my uncle was born, and my grandmother did not like Sweden, so they moved to Canada, which is where my mum was born. So, and my dad is American, so I'm kind of a nice mix of everything, but I'm one of few who are were called in Estonia would be very seriously or foreign-born Estonians born abroad, but I'm one of a few that have moved kind of back to Estonia, so back to the roots, which is nice for me. I get to use the language that I grew up with and only can talk to a small number of people. It was like the secret language, mostly what I got told often. So I get to use that every day, which is nice, and it's also an opportunity for me to like do more like knitting research and just play with inspiration kind of day-to-day. And I'm also on a means to kind of travel different areas. Then I still travel a lot. I kind of grew up with family and friends spread abroad, so I was always traveling even as a small child, and that has just stayed consistent. But now I get to do it with knitting, so that's nice instead of I'm just going on holiday. I go on working holidays.
SPEAKER_00That's not what we're talking to the Australian immigration about when you're applying for your visa.
SPEAKER_02No, well, considering I am working every weekend, no, it's fine. I work every weekend, I'm allowed a couple days off in between.
SPEAKER_00I think it's fair enough. How does that work for Estonians? Because that I remember you talking about like the heritage of Estonian crafts, that there's a lot of techniques within Estonian knitting which are very rare, they can be very isolated, they can be very unique to a very few people that you know to individual islands or regions of Estonia.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you're picking up some of these techniques, you self-describe as a young person in the knitting world and you know, amongst who you're teaching. How are you received by the traditional Estonian knitting community and when you're doing that?
SPEAKER_03So I have been asked this a couple of times, and I think it's an evolving answer. For the most part, I would say people are supportive. The main kind of example I would use is Rosh Manisterian inlay knitting. So it was a technique that was forgotten for about a hundred years. They've only kind of regionally it comes from like one area is predominantly known for it. There's a couple other areas that use it in traditional knits, and so they've trained the ladies in the area to knit basically gloves, which are used for predominantly exhibition. They also sell them, it's become quite popular now, so they don't have enough knitters, and I think for them they've at least realized like I'm not one, I'm not competition. I am not, but it is good to bring interest. I mean, I'm predominantly bringing interest from abroad to it. Since moving here, it's been really interesting because actually the younger crowd, which they've just started making knitting groups, which what we have in the UK of like knitting at a pub, that wasn't a thing a year ago. They've only just started doing that in the last year of like knitting socially, like younger crowds. But a lot of them don't know about traditional stering knitting techniques. Like in school, they knit traditional color work mittens, they don't always have techniques. Some areas, like the areas that do lace, the 16-year-old girls, as part of their like school projects, they design and knit a shawl over the course of a year, but a lot of them only know certain bits, so like some of them don't know about Estonian inlay knitting, and they're like, that's cool. But I think if it's presented in a way that it's not like national dress, it gives them like an end point because a lot of them have a little bit of like trauma from school because some of the craft teachers are really strict, and I have experienced I've been at like events with some of the craft teachers, and they've told me off when we were mutually students, and I went, Oh, okay, this is interesting. But I think some of the like masterners are happy to see like younger people getting interested, so if there's interest, it kind of mutually supports it and helps keep it going because a large part of the problem is just having knitters who are able to do it, whether you do it on the tiny traditional needles or what I do is like variety of gauges and yarn weights, it just brings people in. There's always a couple who are like hardcore, and it's like, well, you can't call it this because it's knit with these colours and dah dah. The biggest kind of like no-no I would say is basically some of my pieces. If I was to wear it with a certain national skirt, they would probably find that not okay, but that's being like really nitpicky. Yeah. We have very specific rules for like how you wear your national costume. So some areas where it's more, there's only about two areas where you would see more everyday wearing it. They can be a little bit more lax if it's kind of done casually, not for a special event.
SPEAKER_00It's the interesting thing, isn't it? When you've got a national dress in that way, very often, that that's true of lots of countries, it's not just the sense of identity, but it's a uniform. And therefore, you know, it's it's you go to school adapting the uniform, and there are not many schools that tolerate it.
SPEAKER_03No. So it's it's basically kind of like that. I would say most of them are happy because it's bringing people in, and that kind of feeds it. So we're getting mostly like foreigners because I've mostly taught abroad since moving to Estonian. I've I've done one workshop in Estonian. Hopefully, we'll do some more, but it's just growing the audience so that it is something known, because otherwise, it's like, hi, we're in this little bubble in this one spot that everyone knows and no one elsewhere does. So it's kind of bringing in I always say, like, I'm not competition. I'm kind of like supporting the traditional stuff, like we can live side by side and mutually support. And most of them are on board with that because it's like the other option is you have basically a certain generation who are able to do the techniques and the traditional knits, and when they're gone, that's kind of it.
SPEAKER_00So I incorporated the technique you taught me, the inlay knitting, onto my heavy metal jumper, and that the part of that jumper where there are numbers that are like on sliders for the my little toggles to go up and down on. And that there, the Estonian Inlay technique was like in a way, having learned it from you, it was an obvious technique to go to because it was just I didn't want to use intarcia, I didn't want to use colour work. Those have real limitations for that part of the design. Whereas Estonian Inlay is a genius technique, and it's I much prefer it, or particularly for that look, to duplicate stitch, which would be another way to recolour that part of the jumper. So but then on the other hand, I completely see that if you end up with people who take a technique and incorporate it willy-nilly all over the place, you lose the sense of where perhaps that technique comes from, and you know, maybe not year to year, but if you roll the clock forwards in decades, then everything gets, you know, blurred and and you lose the documentation of the heritage of the craft.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean that's definitely a concern. I think the main thing I always kind of compare when I I did my master's degree in the UK, which is why I lived there, and part of it was actually my research was looking at the differences and similarities in northern European knitting motifs, how it kind of moved east to west. And I always compare kind of like Estonian knitting culture to Norway because it's the closest equivalent. And Norway has kind of I feel like they're five years ahead of Estonian in terms of like the modern knitting culture of like yarn shots and hand-dye, but also having the traditional and kind of how how that works side by side. I think where Estonia is now in terms of preserving the traditional crafts, the main thing is having things written down because there is very limited like written records. So like I have written stuff. I think we're still years off. My kind of thinking on it, and I I know I've kind of sit in the space mostly with the inlay knitting. I feel like braids tend to get a bit muddled because Latvians have some braids, Estonians have braids, we kind of get lumped together, even though culturally we're very different. But I think with the inlay it will be interesting. My thing is more, I guess could also put it similar to like Japanese craft, like just using the name like Sashiko. Like if someone I always think of it, if you have a pattern and you just say, I use Estonian inlay, or I use Rolls-Man Estonian inlay, it gives someone in the modern way, it gives a person if they want to go down a rabbit hole, they have the information, the tools to go down that rabbit hole of like they know what the name is if you want to research. You put the keyword in. Yeah, because I think not using the keywords and the names kind of makes things you've got like a whole bunch of separate stuff, and it just I don't know, lessens it. So I'm always like, just use the name.
SPEAKER_00If someone wants to go look it up, that's their choice, but no one's forcing you, kind of so was your I'm interested, was your master's degree and your interest in similarity between knitting techniques and um and what you're talking about as well about documenting. Was that a driver or how much did that influence like your wish to write books?
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. I would say for me, writing books was more a little bit for my master's, but also for my undergraduate. So I trained as a graphic designer and illustrator, so I actually had to make books during my training for that. I thought I was gonna write children's, write and illustrate children's books.
SPEAKER_00So I just need to clarify for anyone listening, Alex did the most enormous eye roll there. But illustrating, it doesn't look like illustrating doesn't fill you with joy, does it, Alex?
SPEAKER_03I can see No, I love illustration. No, I love illustration, but not children's book. I realized early on that was not my world. So I ended up doing more editorial stuff, which was kind of more knitting related. So I did knitting illustrations. I did one, oh gosh, it's probably gonna be like 10-11 years ago for Pong Pong magazine. And I had always wanted to do books, so kind of transitioning into designing patterns, which I was doing quietly on the side while doing illustration work, it felt like bringing both sides of me together is like, okay, let's do a book. I can do the illustration work and like write patterns and combine it. So for me, that was like the ideal happy place. I also love books in general. We generally say, on like my mom's side of the family, we all have this disease of we love books and we collect a lot of books. So we're known to like collect a lot of books. So I love print. When I chose to do masters, it was in textile design. I initially thought I was gonna do print design, and knitting would just be side hobby sort of thing because my childhood dream was to work for Mary Meko because I love Mary Meko. But I realized I was like, no, let's try knitting, let's give it a go and push kind of that design front. So I did inspiration I love history, so kind of pulling elements, we had to have a research element to it. So it's like, ooh, let's explore patterns and motifs and how they vary country to country within the countries and how it's part of kind of visual identity because in Australia motifs and like color palettes combined for knitwear and different textile elements of national costume says a lot about precisely where you're from, and for me, I'm hard to pin into a nice box, so it's like how how do you dissect that? And so I kind of went, okay, we'll study that, and then I'm gonna create my own things that kind of represent my life of it's a bit of this and it's a bit of that, but it's something that anyone can kind of come into and make their own as well.
SPEAKER_00Are there knitting techniques you really enjoy which you can't fit into that heritage mishmash or whatever you want to describe it? Like is is there stuff from other parts of the world which you enjoy, but you don't get to put in your I don't know, the designs that you're working on?
SPEAKER_03I don't know if I've hit that wall yet, because I don't want to say I've like put a harsh boundary or restriction on it. I am like dabbling in lace now. I would say there's like two large kind of veins of lace styles of like Shetland and then you go Estonian lace. I haven't done anything specifically like Shetland style, which would be interesting to play with. I have worked on one book project which was a collaborative book project. So I think we were 10 or 12 designers, half of us were not of Norwegian nationality or heritage, and half were, and so we had to use actually traditional Norwegian patterns and kind of adapt them to our styles, which was an interesting challenge. So yeah, I don't think I haven't come across it yet. I'm someone who likes doing technique, so I think in general I would just say like I'm a technique knitter, but I do love heritage, so it's like it's always technique driven because I need some little detail that kind of engages me to keep knitting and just making it fun.
SPEAKER_00Are there any techniques you come across you're not a big fan of?
SPEAKER_03I am not the biggest fan of Antarsia. I've seen a lot of really cool designs, which makes me feel like maybe I should give it another try. Brioche is also kind of in that space of like, I can appreciate it, but I don't think it fits my design language. So there are ones where I can appreciate it, but I'm like, I don't think it's something I would necessarily knit a lot of. I feel like entirely.
SPEAKER_00They're three or four night retreats where knitters and crocheters spend proper time together, learning, relaxing, focusing on their craft. We're in Cambridge this September and Edinburgh during the Christmas markets at the end of November. There are classes, plenty of time to yourself, and a really lovely group of crafters coming from all over the world. I really hope you'll come and join me. If you're interested in these retreats or any others we run, sign up at makeagetaway.com. Limited places remaining. I was really passionate about learning double knitting and I learned it. It took me like 20 minutes to get the hang of it. And I was like, I never need to do this again.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I've done that with brioche.
SPEAKER_03I've done one brioche project, which was a class, and I kind of went, okay, I've done it. Same with double knitting. It's like, okay, I've tried it, and I'm someone that's like, I'm gonna try it, and if I hate it, okay, fine. It's not for me. That's okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, that's that's the wonderful thing about knitting, is that there are so many techniques. You know, just just move on to the city.
SPEAKER_02There's no shortage. There's no shortage, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. I'm interested. Whereabouts in the world have been your favorite yarn festivals? Where are the good ones?
SPEAKER_03Well, you and I have chatted about this. I would say there's definitely like a different vibe. I have not been to a yarn festival in Australia. I'm actually missing two times in a row, I'm missing out on their like big yarn festival. I really like the European ones. So one that I would say like you get a different feel whether it's summer or winter. One that's really nice in the summertime is Evascular Knit Festival, which I'm going to in just every two weeks. Which is kind of mid-Finland in the lake district, and they just have live music in a courtyard, and it's like relaxed summer party vibes. People knitting, drinking, chatting, shopping, all things. Wis, which you and I have both been to, is a great one. Again, it's I feel like the ones where they strike the balance between it's relaxed and people being able to mingle, especially if you're a teacher, it can be really hard. I remember like when I was a student and kind of like a regular knitter, I guess, just like attendee, it's a different feeling. Like you can your schedule is a bit more open versus when you're teaching, it's like, okay, I've got to be here to do this, and I'm moving my stuff around. So when we've got time to actually like talk to other teachers or like talk to like vendors and stuff, that mingling is really nice, and just knitters in general. So, yeah, I would put like Evascula, Swiss, Young Festival. There Knit City Canada is also great. They do two in Canada a year, which is nice because my experiences of Canada has always been from like my childhood, which was largely pre-obsessive knitting. I learned to knit but didn't do ton. And so it's nice to kind of see what's what's happening in Canada, and it's also quite mingled. They do like events. I've been to Calgary and they've had line dancing, which was hilarious, and a lot of fun. Everyone's in their knits, and then going, How can I peel this off because it's too warm?
SPEAKER_00But it's dancing with all your knitwear on, is in a cold environment.
SPEAKER_03That one it wasn't as bad as when Edinburgh Yarn Festival was still a thing, and they would do a Kaylee, and that was a bloodbath because no one knew what they were doing, and you're trying to teach a group of people, and some are trying to look cute in their knitwear, and I just went. I think that's kind of out the door. You just don't want to smack yourself into someone else.
SPEAKER_00I'm interested in your view on the organization of like those knitting the like yarn festivals and teaching internationally. So I've got very limited experience because I've been for classes, I guess, in in New York, in the UK, and in Germany. And I, as a as a student, I perceive a difference in those. And for example, for one, I've not been to many, but in the UK, for example, I've never seen screens put up in the way that like I've seen that in other countries. And like the the facilities that are laid on for knitters and also the pricing of classes are really different, but I've only been to three countries. You've talked about at least ten countries that you've taught in. Is that a fair perception? Is that is that or have I just got random?
SPEAKER_03No, I think it's a fair perception. I will kind of preface and go like I've seen kind of the organization side from like a couple different points of view, like as a knitter who's been a student. I worked at a yarn shop for five years, so I went to a couple of festivals where I was literally helping out on a stand selling yarn, and then I've been a teacher, so I've kind of seen it from a couple different angles. I started teaching pre-pandemic when nobody used screens, like just I think like a year, maybe a year and a half before lockdown started. I had started teaching, and I never had a plan to teach. I just thought I was gonna write books, patterns, and maybe sell kits and stuff. That was my business plan that I had put together for my masters, and people started asking me, Hey, can you teach the stuff that you're using in your patterns, those techniques? Like, yes, you have tutorial videos, but it'll be nice. So I started teaching. The use of screens definitely came into play when we were in the height of the pandemic and everything went virtual. It's a massive change, and so using the like little document cameras to do kind of hands-on demos, and then that's kind of transitioned coming out of it. I quite like using it, so I'm someone who I tend to push for a screen unless it's in a small space where let's say there's only eight students. Because I remember being a student, and the teacher, whoever was teaching, was like, gather around and like I'll show you, and everyone's going, Okay, who's sit standing in front behind, and you're trying to all like scrunch around versus like having it on a screen. I find it does work well. I hope that way it helps people see kind of the same view without like hi, I'm like scrunching around to see this at the same time, and that means that I can provide more individual help going around. Most festivals, I think the ones who did organize things virtually have kind of transitioned well. It has made a change in what kind of venues run it. We've definitely seen a change in terms of yarn shops doing workshops. A lot of them made the choice coming out of a pandemic not to do workshops or massively scale back. And so it is interesting to see a change in facilities, but also as you mentioned, pricing. There is a wide variety in pricing. And as someone who teaches, I usually have kind of a set rate and what the actual ticket gets priced at. I don't really have a say in it. So it's always interesting to see I'm doing the same workshop at two geographically different locations, and the prices can be quite different.
SPEAKER_00Simple as the pricing is, you know, for for richer countries the pricing is higher, and for less well-off countries, the pricing is lower, or is there more to it than that?
SPEAKER_03I think sometimes yes, it's interesting. I've kind of started talking to like my fellow teachers because a lot of us are kind of like on this similar teaching circuit. Almost the international circuit. Alright, so you mostly say like the Europeans, we kind of all circle around. I'm I go further afield than most, so I don't I don't quite always fit in, but I would say the pricing can be different. Largely it depends on how an organizer handles travel and accommodation and how far someone is coming from. And so a lot of people look at it and they're like, you travel great wide distances, which I do. I have gotten savvy you make a lot of mistakes early on, in that I tend to group things. Like if I'm going to Australia, I'm going for like an extended period to make it financially viable for both me, but all the shops that are working with. No, that that would be a lot, no, and I also do it like I go to the state slot, my parents still live there, my dad's side of the family are still there, so I'll kind of combine it. But I usually go like if I'm coming, I'm gonna do multiple stops in one go and group it to make it a viable option in terms of travel, because it's a bit ridiculous. Like, oh, I'm just gonna go for and teach one weekend in like this fireplace and then fly back.
SPEAKER_00I guess also in terms of the pricing from the event organizers' point of view, they share less in the travel button as well.
SPEAKER_03So yes, it gets spread out, so it does help, and I did learn that because when I started traveling, kind of say more widely, was after the first book I did with Lina Publishing, which was Traditions Revisited, they had asked me to do a book tour, and I think I was actually their first author who did a book tour, so we did one through Europe. It was a steep learning curve, it was a massively steep learning curve of like how to plan it and how to price things, and yeah, I made mistakes of going like, well, that wasn't logical traveling and all of that. So I'm a little bit more conscious of like I move in a logical direction, east to west or west to east, like we group things, we spread costs, and I get a lot of knitters who comment and they're like, Oh, I would love to take your class, but I'm not there those days, or could you come here to like my local yarn shop, or it's too expensive? And I kind of like I'm one person, I can't I cannot physically go everywhere, and I always kind of do it based on like what works best for me, but also for the organizer, because we all have to do well, and it then needs to be something worthwhile for knitters to come to, so it's kind of finding that perfect balance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean that's the other thing that that interests me about that is the extent of is is how much it says about what a knit is prepared to pay in order to learn something, because you assume that everyone in the market ultimately is profit seeking, but they want they're there to make money, event organizers are there to make money, you know, and designers, teachers, everyone ultimately, yeah, you can do it about passion, but you also have to earn an income. And I was really surprised, yeah, it is a business, and I'm surprised like when I've heard about some of the rates that are paid, because I've looked into teaching, and obviously the obvious thing to do is starting in the UK because I live here, to go to some of the festivals and so on here, and I'm surprised about the very low rates offered for teaching relative to what I've seen internationally. And I wonder whether that's UK specific or whether the UK is, you know, the part of a other other group of countries, whether it says anything about the value that that Brits place on learning crafts.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's an interesting question. And I would say I have seen a shift. So having lived in the UK for eight years and teaching elsewhere, I think it is a question of value, and I guess communicating the value of a workshop well to an audience. I don't think it's necessarily like UK specific, but I do see it as a it has been a point of a problem. Like when I lived in the UK, I actually taught more often than not abroad than in the UK because of you know pricing and people actually booking onto things, but it is starting to be a bit of a problem, I would say, in the US and elsewhere. It's definitely a difference if you are teaching, let's say, in a yarn shop versus a festival. I think we've shifted generally in the last five years from knitters kind of taking classes and willing to pay like a certain price to do it in their local yarn shops versus making it kind of a holiday, so to speak, and going to a festival or a retreat, and now it seems like more knters are willing to spend more if it's like I'm going to this city for this weekend to go to this festival. It feels like they can justify it versus elsewhere, but I do think there is a big problem of understanding the value because I I'm sure you have gotten experience of people going like, Oh, I want to learn from you, but it's too expensive. Like, why are you pri it's like most of the time I'm not always in charge of the pricing, like and pricing if it's with a festival, and I have to say, like it's perception of value for the knitter, but also the organizers, whether it's a festival or yarn shop, of going an in person workshop. There's so much value to it of you get individual, kind of like hands on, like troubleshooting help. Yeah, I'm the person who brings like loads of samples because it's nice to see. Like, hey, how does this technique look finished? What can it be used for? How does it fit in a design? But also, I'm always the person going like, if you're interested in a pattern of mine, try on the sample, like get an idea for sizing. Not everyone can visualize from a schematic or numbers. And it's having that help. And usually, I would say like nine times out of ten. I have someone who has taken a class and then they go, I'm gonna immediately cast on a project. I'm buying yarn for whatever. So it's supporting the shop or a vendor. And I would say a teacher is like most of our job in person is we are a cheerleader, especially when I teach seeking, is like I am the cheerleader. Yes, I am like giving you the technical knowledge, which is important, but most of the time it's being the cheerleader and telling someone, like, yes, you can do this, because I think every knitter has some level of like imposter syndrome, or they don't think they're good enough, or like, oh, I'm not sure I can do this. I haven't it's like, can you knit? Can you purl? Okay, yes, you can do this. I'm really here going, you've done a good job.
SPEAKER_00The difference, the difference as well, with you know, if you sit down to make yourself learn a technique just by watching a YouTube video, you can put it off and put it off and put it off, and you're like, oh, I'm not sure about this bit. If you get stuck, you can just stop. You can turn it off and say, I'll come back to it later, and it doesn't matter if you never come back to it later. But if you're in the class, you're going to finish the technique. And you've got someone there who, when you get stuck, is going to help you move it forwards. Exactly. And I I totally agree. I mean, I I have a separate issue, which is that I think because I've shared so many technique videos online through Instagram free, I think also people that there's an assumption about access to me and learning from me as well, which is there's a there's a disjoint. You know, I started running these knitter retreats and which are really expensive, but you know, it's that is what it is, and it is but that that's a sort of a difficult smashing together of two different parts of the audience, I guess.
SPEAKER_03It is, and I would say like most of the time people complain, knitters complain about the price of things, and I'm going, you're not gonna find any teacher, designer, a festival organizer who is just becoming a millionaire, becoming rich off of it. Like, we're making enough that we are like living comfortably of I can pay my bills, I can feed myself, like the basics. No one's getting like rich except very minutiae people. And I would say I have had the issue with kind of value of I did virtual workshops, so when we were in lockdown, everything was virtual. I do them on occasion still now. I prefer in person because I do find virtual. So you've obviously done like Instagram videos, I have tutorial videos, which I always do for YouTube because people will buy a pattern. Maybe they're not they've come to workshop, maybe they haven't. This should still be able to do it, and I forget how to do grafting if I haven't done it in two months and I need a refresher. Yeah, but I find like virtual workshops kind of sit in the same yes, they're priced cheaper because I can sit from home and do it, or like my studio and someone else can sit from home, they're not traveling. But I almost don't I was thinking about it, I was like, I don't always classify them as workshops because they feel like a live demo of it's me demonstrating and you can ask questions, and there's certain techniques like I will not do steaking virtually. I have been asked, and I'm like, no, interesting because people don't all have their videos on, which I it's personal preference whether you have your video on or not. If you're watching, I don't know if the people watching are actually gonna steak their swatch because I can't see what they're doing. I could be here cutting on screen, but they might not be. And it's like, okay, so you've watched this, and if you have a problem, I can't troubleshoot it because you're like a little square on my screen. Yeah, versus like in person, we can like fix it.
SPEAKER_00So it's kind of I can't see if someone's about to cut horizontally instead of vertically.
SPEAKER_03No, I don't know what's happening half the time.
SPEAKER_00So like Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Whereas like in person, you can.
SPEAKER_00I love talking, I love presenting, I love you know communicating with groups of people, but when it came to lockdown and all of a sudden you were staring, you know, you were so rather than having a room full of people, you had a screen full of boxes of which, you know, a third might have had cameras on. It was just impossible. It became impossible and so draining as well, because you you have to fill that that space with emotion and energy, and it comes from you, and it's so much more draining to do than something where you've got a room where you the vibe just runs away with itself and you have this positive experience for everyone, which everyone contributes to. So yeah, I can totally see.
SPEAKER_03With knitting, I'm constantly asking in a virtual one going, like, how's everyone doing? Does anyone have any questions? I'm gonna keep going because I can't tell like if someone is knitting along or anything. And I still do the virtuals from time to time, but they are not my go-to because I don't feel like you're getting the full experience as an in-person one. Again, yes, it has a different price point because there isn't that travel cost involved, and that does change the pricing of workshops. So for teachers, and I've got a group of teachers that we've become friends and we share kind of experiences because working in this industry, if you're a designer and a teacher, it's largely really working on your own and figuring it out, and so being have a comfortable group where you're like, Okay, did you get us invited to this? And like, how are you being paid? And it's like the role on an even playing field, but also even for teachers, it's for us knowing our value, and that's hard to go, okay. Do we need to re-evaluate what we're pricing ourselves at? Because we're more experienced than we were five years ago, or maybe you know, understanding that, so it's value across the board.
SPEAKER_00So, where do you think in the world does really value learning craft based on your experience?
SPEAKER_03Oh I'm gonna judge it based on the ones who were the most excited and engaged in a workshop. I would definitely put Australia at one of the like top spots for that. I think both from the standpoint of like nitdo's attending workshops, but also I've worked, so I've taught at individual yarn shots, not at any of their festivals. I think they're so appreciative to have someone come to them that they kind of they will work really hard to make it the best experience, and those students are so happy to be there, and I think they don't question the price because they're like, you're coming closer to me. Like, and so they kind of see the opportunity. Whereas I think other knitters might feel a bit jaded, of like, oh, I have to travel however far to see you. So I do think they're definitely on the higher scale because they are used to buying and having things shipped to them, they have a little bit of a better appreciation of like, is that good value?
SPEAKER_00It's more normal, it it it normalizes it if you you know, if you want to access that person, that technique, you have to acquire it from great distance. Whereas I suppose if you're sitting in the UK, you might be thinking, well, am I going to go to a Yarn festival that's an hour away or two hours away? Or that or you think, well, why would I go to one that's in a different country where it might take me eight or ten hours to get to?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I do think some of the problem I've seen of people not kind of understanding the value, both like as organizers who teacher students, is those who've maybe only been to like one festival, and so they're kind of only used to like one viewpoint. And so, like if you've chatted with people who've gone to different events, or like you've gone to you kind of see the differences and like different experiences, and you can kind of learn from that as to like if you're an organizer, like what you do, or as a student, like, oh, that's really fun, maybe we should go there and being a bit more adventurous.
SPEAKER_00So it is what about the supply of materials? Because that's something that I I mean, this is a really niche question, but but no, it's totally fine. It like you're normally asked, my perceptions you're normally asked as a teacher, you provide materials for the class that you're teaching, but again, my limited experience, I don't see that much anywhere else.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm I think I've learned over the years is kind of like trial and error, and I think as a teacher, finding confidence to kind of go, this is what I'm requesting, and like kind of being willing to say no. For me, I generally don't supply materials, like the only material where it's kind of give or take is the printed handouts, but when it comes to needles and yarn, I'm like, no, I'm not supplying it because needles I think it's such a personal, like individualized thing, and I'm very like I've learned over the years like to word things specifically, like the kind of amount of promotional material I give to an organizer so that they can use and just be like, please make sure, and the materials list, like okay, this is the size of the needle, but here are all the various types like bring what you are comfortable knitting with for a small circumference. Some people like magic loops, some people like DPNs, some like short circulars. Because I think the biggest problem when it comes to materials, especially with needles, is people deciding that they're gonna learn magic loops for the first time while doing your class, and you're like, okay, let's tackle one thing, like just choose the thing that you are already at ease with. Yarn, I would say I've not been pushed to bring yarn. I also think I don't see, I feel like giving that as a responsibility to a teacher is a lot of burden. I do see like it might be trying to cut corners in terms of pricing, but I don't think that helps. Most people are happy to bring stash. The only times I've had yarn kind of supplied has been at festivals where they've had sponsors, so someone has sponsored, and it's been like an opportunity for the yarn brand to kind of essentially advertise their yarn in a way so people get to like try it out while they're learning something. For me, the biggest kind of contention point is printed handouts. For the most part, like when I am teaching quite far away, so Australia, I require them to print handouts because I'm not traveling with like a stack of paper in my suitcase. That's valuable real estate I need for other things. So you need for all the knitted samples, I need it for like samples and like demo swatches. Like, I don't need this mountain of paper, like no. So I usually provide access to like the organizers going, like, here's the handout, you print it out. There's like what I will say, like some more local ones where they will be like, You bring the handout, and I usually just say, Can you tell me what the like final count of students are? So I'm not excessively printing, but that tends to be where I I draw the line, is on that.
SPEAKER_00Have you ever felt tokenized as an Estonian knitter as someone in the craft?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And how is that presented?
SPEAKER_03That was in a video podcast. I feel I feel like I have told you the story. I won't name podcasts because I feel like it will just stir up drama. Not that there's always a shortage of drama in the knitting world, but yeah, I think it's only been one time, and I was specifically asked to wear I brought I have two sets of national costume that fit me, and I had brought both, and one of them, the skirt doesn't fit me because it was like post-COVID, and I had put on a bit of weight, and the person who was running it, she just said, Oh, we'll just mix the two, and I was so uncomfortable. I was sitting, she's like, We're sitting down, no one's gonna see, and I was like, I know, and I it like really I think threw it off also because I was in full regalia and the person interviewing me was sitting next to me in like regular clothes, it was very night and day. It's only happened once.
SPEAKER_00What did that what did that experience teach you, or what did that make you think about how you present yourself or the way that you interact with the knitting world?
SPEAKER_03I think for me, like I would say like growing up, I never enjoyed wearing national costume because I had to wear it at random events, and so I also never lived in a climate where it was suitable to wear that amount of wool. So I was wearing it at times that were like 35 degrees, and I'm in like wool, I'm sweating, and it was usually yes, it was not enjoyable. It was like as a kid, it was like International Day, and I had to be like everyone wears their outfits, and then I worked at the Estonian Embassy in Washington and the States when they did the summer event again. Oh, it's always summer, it's ridiculous. I think the only time I wore it, have a garden party and wear wool. The only time I think I wore it fully in the UK was February. It was for the 100th anniversary of independence, and I went, I took the train from Bath to London and I wore it on the train because it is it's just too heavy to haul around. And a man said to me, I think I was in Paddington Station, and he just said, You're like a folk princess. I went, Okay, well that's at least nice, so I'll take that. Like I got more comfortable wearing it, I think when I got into doing patterns and designing things, where I was like, Okay, I've styled it sometimes with a skirt and like my own jumper or sweater with it and stuff to kind of like break it up a little bit. I think that instance kind of forced me to evaluate, I guess one why I wasn't I was uncomfortable with it, and like what was wrong with the situation, which there were other issues with like the questions in the interview. It was very micromanaged and like what I could answer. And I think for me, I kind of look at it as going how I want to present myself is like yes, I am a student, but I grew up in Bron and I'm a mix of a lot of things, so for me, my designs are not gonna fit like this is from X region. It's a representation of like collaging different elements, but also making it approachable for someone else. Because I don't want anyone to be like, oh gosh, this is like historical piece, and I'm gonna get like judged or it's like no.
SPEAKER_00I mean, certainly based on from what I know about you and how you've talked, how we've spoken, it also seems like that you know, that exercise of control and creativity, you know, it's something that you get to exercise a lot as a designer, as an illustrator, as a teacher. You're in control of the way you present in so many different ways, and and you get to choose as well how you are combining different Estonian techniques and and heritage crafts and presenting those to other people. And from my perception, it just seems like, well, where you wouldn't be in control of that and where you're not showing specifically the things that that you've designed or that you care about so much, I could see why that would be at odds with that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's only like when someone I think has a forced agenda on it, and usually I find like those instances are from people who aren't necessarily fully educated or open to the fact that they might not have all the answers. And I kind of go like, I don't know everything, and like I've been asked about soon, and I'm like, I can tell you from my personal opinion, and like some of Stones, but I can't speak for everybody, and so usually when it's like backed into a corner, it's like in that instance, like this person thought they were the expert and they were trying to tailor it, and I was pushing back on it in the best way I could because it's like everything should be an entry point of just like interest in like a continued conversation.
SPEAKER_00Um that's what I find fascinating about what you do and about the way you teach, is because you give these snippets of amazing crafts that you don't come across every day, and you incorporate them into totally contemporary modern designs that don't necessarily fall into a specific region of a specific country, you can use them anywhere. And that's I mean, that's that's what I find fascinating about them and fascinating about your work.
SPEAKER_03Well, because I think it's like if you just by changing the colour combos and the yarn, it's a totally different feel to it. So, like, I'm not necessarily stringent using like specific, we have specific colour combos and a stain for like mitten patterns for like each region has its own colour palette. I don't stick to that, which is an interesting conversation with knitters here because they feel so restricted. Some of those who have done like the traditional mittens are like, well, I wouldn't knit it in a different color. And they look at myself and I'm like, knit in whatever color you want, whatever yarn you want. They're like, that just feels so like wide open and like oh my god. And you went, if it's personally for you and you're not wearing it with your national costume, you're just going to the supermarket, you're going, nobody's gonna question it. Like, have fun, it should be fun and a way of exploring. Like, for me, it brought confidence and me feeling more comfortable being Estonian. Like, I can have elements that are Estonian, which outwardly most people might not know. Maybe they'll go, like, oh, I like your that jumper, that vest you've got on. Like, where did you buy it? And like the patterning, and it starts a conversation, but it doesn't scream like, Hi, I'm Estonian, look at me and my outfit. Like, it's this conversation starter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Fascinating. Alex, before we wrap up, is there anything that you would like to give a shout out to that? We haven't talked enough about titles of your book, latest patterns that have come out, scarves that you might want to donate to me because I have your scarf. Such a tease.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Such a tease. Well, you know, you just have to travel to come see me because I I now have two of them. You could steal one and I'd still have one.
SPEAKER_00So Okay, well, I've we're we're literally recording, so I've got evidence of that. Thank you very much, Alex. This scarf, so I'm gonna I'm gonna describe this for anyone that can't that can't see it. Alex has created the most wonderful scarf. It's it's one of the sort of mini scarves, and it's it's knitted, I guess it's normal stockinette knitting on the on the back, but it's got this beautiful lace overlay on on the front of it, and it it's just the most wonderful effect. I just think it's so cool. What did I miss about that, Alex?
SPEAKER_03No, I think you've got it. It's yeah, so I like to do things seamlessly because if I have to do a lot of sewing, it it ruins the joy in the making process for me. So this was like my way of reinventing lace because every person I've met who has heard of Astering in some context in the knitting sphere has said lace, and I went, which is a not as old a knitting tradition and a steering as other techniques. I went, okay, I'm gonna have to do lace at some stage, and so this is like my way of doing lace, of having it graphic, so yeah, there will be more lace every day, but yes, this is the cohen scarf, which you have modeled multiple times at Sociarm Festival for me. I don't have all the photos saved, but it's a great scarf. I know. I actually have some ombre mohair, and I'm like, I might need to make another one. They're really they're really nice, yeah. So that was playing off of what was in the latest book, which is Kindred Knits. So there were three patterns in there: a cardigan hat and mitts that were with the lace overlay. Started that trend off, so yes, but you've got a lot of patterns in that book.
SPEAKER_00I would just give a shout out for the for the number of patterns in that book. They're not they're not.
SPEAKER_02This one has less than this one.
SPEAKER_01This is I think it's 18, and this one's 15.
SPEAKER_00It's a lot. But they're beautiful books, they're very, very substantial books.
SPEAKER_03They're not as bad as the ones that are written by a publisher here, which are like easily twice the size of this. So yeah, I'm not I'm not throwing like a five kilo book on you. So these are at two, so they're manageable.
SPEAKER_00And Alex, where where do people find you? If they want to find out more information about you, your teaching, where's the best place to find you?
SPEAKER_03I am easy to find because of the way my name is spelled. So if you Google me, Alex A-L-E-K-S, which is written the Australian way, because there's no X in the alphabet, so it's Alex with a K S, and then Bird, which is my dad's surname, bird with a Y. So if you Google that basically on that name on Instagram, Facebook, my website is also alex-bird.com. So I'm easy to find because as far as I know, I'm the only Alex bird in that spelling combination.
SPEAKER_00Certainly, that does Estonian knitting techniques.
SPEAKER_03I mean, you can put knitting in Google as well, and maybe that narrows it, but I'm I have Googled myself on the rare occasion just to see what happens.
SPEAKER_00So just to check you're still there.
SPEAKER_03Just to check. I'm just curious every once in a while.
SPEAKER_00Alex, it's been a total pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me, for sharing your experience, and for having this chat. I'm I'm super grateful. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Thanks so much, Adam. I really had fun chatting.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Yarn Library. If you've enjoyed the conversation, please do follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you have a moment to leave a rating or review, it genuinely helps more people discover the show. If you have a question, comment, or idea for a future episode, someone you want to hear me interview, email me at podcast at cleavelits.com. And if you'd like to see this conversation or watch my longer form videos, head to Cleveland's on YouTube. I'll be back very soon with another episode. Until then, thank you for listening. Happy netting.