with Tony Gordon Business Mindset Coach

(Denise Billen-Mejia MD CH www.healandberadiant.com office@aahypnosis.com

Les Roberts ACH www.lesrobertshypnotherapy.co.uk contact@lesrobertshypnotherapy.co.uk

Guest Tony Gordon www.changingyourmindltd.com TonyGordon@changingyourmindltd.com

0:00) Welcome to Two Hypnotherapists Talking with me, Denise Billen-Mejia, in Delaware, USA. (0:06) And me, Les Roberts, in St Helens, United Kingdom. (0:10) This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who'd like to know more about (0:14) the fascinating world of hypnosis and the benefits that it offers.(0:19) I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and specialist in working with children. (0:24) And I'm a retired medical doctor and consultant hypnotist. (0:30) We are Two Hypnotherapists Talking.(0:33) So let's get on with the episode. (0:37) So, hi everybody, wherever you are. (0:40) We've got a very special guest today and his name is Tony Gordon.(0:44) He's a friend of mine as well. (0:46) I've done a lot of work with Tony over the years (0:48) and he's an empowerment leadership coach. (0:53) Welcome, Tony.(0:55) Thank you, Les. (0:55) And thank you, Denise, for having me on. (0:57) You're welcome.(0:59) So actually, it's a great opportunity to hear (1:02) somebody else's take on the work we do. (1:05) So that's really good. (1:06) How long have you been in that field? (1:09) I suppose five years.(1:11) Two thousand and twenty one. (1:14) I was made redundant from a bank I worked in, part of the HSBC group, (1:18) where I was a mental health first aider. (1:20) And I used to get frustrated in the bank that I knew I could tell people more, (1:24) but I wasn't allowed because being the first aider, (1:26) I had to then pass them on to counsellors.(1:30) And a lot of the people used to tell me that it was great doing that, (1:33) but it wasn't suitable for them. (1:35) It wasn't right for them. (1:36) So I used the redundancy to retrain rather just... (1:39) I've been a coach for over 20 years in the bank.(1:42) And what I decided to do was to train in hypnotherapy (1:45) because I'd been using self-hypnosis to help me through an illness (1:48) and realised that hypnotherapy and NLP, (1:52) which I found out through the same people, (1:54) hand-in-hand was probably the most powerful medium (1:57) that I found to help those people. (1:59) The coaching had done great things with them, (2:02) but not to the extent I could do with this. (2:05) Yeah, just a sort of asterisk there by that comment.(2:10) One of the things that we're concerned about is this overselling. (2:14) I absolutely think that, for a start, (2:16) every single person on the planet has been hypnotised in some way at some time, (2:21) not necessarily by a hypnotist, (2:23) but that this is a natural thing that happens (2:27) and we can all use it and get value from it. (2:31) And how do people find you these days? (2:35) Do you go out and speak or do you just romance? (2:39) I do a bit of everything.(2:42) Networking. (2:43) I was an ambassador for a network group for the last two years as well, (2:45) so I led the networks. (2:47) I do a lot of talks on different subjects as well (2:50) for people in the corporate world (2:52) as well as in private.(2:56) And also, a lot of my work has always came from referrals (3:00) from previous clients or companies that I've done work with (3:04) whose staff may suddenly have issues. (3:06) So although I've done the team building and leadership training, (3:09) they realise when the staff have certain issues there (3:11) that they can come to me (3:12) and I can do one-on-one with them as well. (3:14) Are these people who come to you for business issues (3:17) and you realise there are some underlying issues (3:20) that you can help them with? (3:21) Yeah.(3:22) A lot of the people who

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Circus Talking with Me today film in Delaware US today.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

And the letter of it in St. Helen's United Kingdom.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who would like to know more about the fascinating world of hypnotism and the benefits that it offers.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and specialist in working with children.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

And I'm a retired medical doctor. And consultant doctors.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

We are two hypnotherapists talking. So let's get on with the episode. So hi everybody, wherever you are. And his name is Tony Gordon. He's a friend of mine as well. I've done a lot of work with Tony over the years, and he's an empowerment leadership coach. Welcome, Tony.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Thank you, Les. And thank you, Denise Borty, for having me on.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Thank you. It's a great opportunity to hear somebody else's take on the work we do. So it's really good. How long have you been in that field?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Um I suppose five years. Uh 2021, I was made redundant from a bank I worked in, part of the HSBC group, where I was a mental health first aider. And I used to get frustrated in the bank that I knew I could tell people more, but I wasn't allowed because being the first aider, I had to then pass them on to counsellors. And a lot of the people used to tell me that it was great doing that, but it wasn't suitable for them. It wasn't right for them. So I used the redundancy to retrain rather than just be. I've been a coach for over 20 years in the bank. Um, and what I then decided to do is to train in hypnotherapy because I'd been using self-hypnosis to help me through an illness and realized that hypnotherapy and NLP, which I found out through the same people, hand in hand, was probably the most powerful medium that I found to help those people.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

The coaching had never done great things with them, but not to the extent I could do with this.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Yeah, I just a sort of asterisk there on that comment. One of the things that I've been concerned about is this overselling. I absolutely think that first, every single person on the planet has been hypnotized in some way at some time, not necessarily by a hypnotist, but that that this is a natural thing that happens and we can all use it and get value from it. And how do you how do people find you these days? Do you go out and speak or do you just write ads or okay?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

I do a bit of everything. Um, networking. I was an ambassador for a network group for the last two years as well, so I led the networks. Um, I do a lot of talks on different subjects as well for people in the corporate world as well as um in private. Um, and also a lot of my most of my work has always came from referrals from previous clients or companies that I've done work with who staff may suddenly have issues. So though I've done the team building and leadership training, they realize when the staff have certain issues there that they can come to me and I can do one-on-one with them as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Are these people who come to you for business issues and you realise there are some underlying issues that you can help them with?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Yeah, okay. A lot of the people who come when you do a lot of corporate things don't always want to be in that room. And you can see you pick up signs that they may be uncomfortable within groups or speaking in public, or sometimes it's just the fact of that they feel that they've had a bad experience before in a certain situation like that. And it's slim how to identify those signs, it's room dynamics basically, simply put, it's understanding the people within the group and who fits and who doesn't, and then having quite private conversations with them afterwards to find what the issue is and how you can help. And by doing that, whenever they have any further issues, they always seem to come back because you've helped them previously.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

When they understand hypnosis or hypnotherapy and NLP a lot better, they usually come back for you know for different things. But can I just ask you? Um, I know you're a hypnotherapist and I know you're an NLP practitioner. Why did why are you using that title of an empowerment leadership coach and not anything else?

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Simply, um, there's two reasons. The main word at the beginning of what started it was working in corporate. So corporate is just business world. When you use the word hypnosis or hypnotherapy, suddenly I did not want to know. Well, that's it. Now the funny thing was is I didn't understand what Wu Wu was. So when someone said it to me, I was a little bit confused because I didn't know woo. And I think, being honest, uh, until my illness 11 years ago, or 14 years ago, 11, 2011, I didn't really understand any other thing except going to a doctor, going to hospital, getting help. But I realized they were not able to help me the way I needed. So I had to go and find a journey thing myself and what different things out that you could do, and I was amazed how many other things were there apart from traditional Western medicine, and it really interested me to find is the people who call it woo-woo or disflator and said this don't work. Why has that been around for thousands of years? But the Western practitioner medicine that's only been in the last hundred years, really. So there's something that tells you that then, if that's been here all that time, it works. But what I started to find when I was promoting myself at network groups, especially, then people sort of didn't want you coming into the group. And one of the comments I got is because you'll put something into your minds. That was the most common one I got. And I went, I kind of put it in that your mind, unless you meant the advertising world. Yes, you can't do that. So I'd started to realize that people didn't understand the difference, and I started trying to educate them the between hypnosis, as they taught, which was like a street entertainer or a TV entertainer, and hypnotherapy, but it still seemed as though the type of work I wanted to go into, they weren't interested in that. So I changed it, and thanks to someone that used Both know, called Chiran, Trin Mintzer, uh, I did a program with him on a confidence hypnotherapist, basically how to do more rapid hypnotherapy. And I would use that without telling them I was actually doing hypnotherapy. What we were doing was having a bit of fun, and using that, I started to get them to understand if I can make your people feel better, laugh, enjoy themselves 15 minutes. Can you imagine what I could do if you give me hours, weeks, months to work with them? And it started to work that way, but then I realized that it only worked when I changed the title for myself about who I was, and I changed to being a business or a coaching mindset coach is what I've been known as for the last few years. But the last bit I said came to me where the empowerment came from was actually a client, a client in Australia, who said to me is that she wasn't going to come to me, although it helped some people she knew, because the word mindset she felt the same, it was intrusive, so she didn't want to work in the mindset. She goes, But you don't do that, you just empower me to do it myself. I thought it was a lovely way of putting it. She went, so it really she called me an empowerment leadership strategist in a post, and people started to comment on that. That's exactly what he is. But I felt the word strategist was still too business, so I just changed it back to being a coach. So I kept the first two words she gave me empowerment leadership, and then changed it back to that. And it seems to suit a lot more people.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yeah, Taran, Taran was our first guest on uh the person and a broad hypnotherapist and hypnotist, yeah. And it's his birthday today. Oh, yeah, we we've talked, Denise and I talked and and our other guests as well. We've talked about that sort of uh that no-no words to use, you know, like hypnosis, hypnotherapy. Myself, I had to change my business to Little Mind Masters because I couldn't, yeah. I couldn't get into any establishments, any education establishments with using Les Robert's hypnosis.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Yeah, and what makes me annoyed about it is that haven't you changed that title? Because there's so many amazing hypnotherapists out there, but people can't always find them because they don't like the words, they don't look at that, they'd have to use other words to treat them. But I give it's funny, Therese said something earlier that everybody's been hypnotized hypnotized sometime in their life. I teach people you've been hypnotized every single day. It doesn't matter what you do. If you when I talk to them all, the most common example you can use is driving, because that was when I was taught with doing these drives and they'll say yes, right. Remember before you did your test, who could put a hand that'll tell me all the things you had to remember, and people start doing it about right now. Somebody tell me who still does all those things, and they'll start laughing about you've all failed your test now, right? Can you pass? Because you don't do it anymore, but you don't have to, because your mind now remembers that, and that does it gets into that state, whatever you want to call it, moves your strands, whatever. Yeah, you just consciously go and do that now because your mind loves repetition, it loves habit. That's basically what hypnotherapy does is it builds habits in you to improve your life, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:05

You've used the example of anything that you're learning, you know, watch a child learn how to walk up steps, yeah, they have to think about everything that they're doing, and often they just give up and get stuck in the middle and caught it.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

You think of someone reading a book? When you read the book, you never notice anything else in the book, you're so focused on the book. Same by listening to music, I always use music example. TV, TV, anything at all. You don't notice everything else. Your peripheral view goes, but later on, somebody will say something, Oh, yeah, I remember when you did that, but they weren't looking at it. So, how come your memory notices that? That's what it is. All we do, if you use Nether with you, is allow those memories to come to the forefront rather than be stuck somewhere in the back. That's all it is. If you think that way, it's not intrusive anymore because we're not doing it. You are, yeah. All we are is guides, we just help you to find the memory you need to bring it to the place you need at the moment you need it.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

So when you when you use like I know that you've used traditional hypnosis or hypnotherapy to help people, when it's on the corporate side, what's the difference?

SPEAKER_00 10:08

The only difference is, but for me, is they will look at it, and it's a word that a lot of hypnotists I know um sort of there's like something on each side of it is the word trans. Some people agree that hypnotherapy is trans, some people agree it's not. It's two different things. Whatever you want to call it, corporates sort of feel that they don't want people having you put under there because if you're doing that, some people might know up and say, I don't like this and now, but later on they may, so it can cause issues, so they don't really like you getting to do it. I say I use a thing called conversational hypnosis, a lot of people call it ericsonian hypnosis. I do the exact same things, it's done through NLP or neuralistic programming, which basically just means how to put patterns in your mind and how to bring the behaviors to those patterns to help you elicit whatever the solution you need is, and that's all I do. But by not using the word they're saying they're going to get into trans, I'm actually going to do that with them without them realizing. Because it's all I just get is to focus on what I'm saying and to follow my instructions, and that's why I say to them, Can you follow instructions? Yes, can you focus on what I language and what I tell you? Yeah, then you can be hypnotized. It's as simple as that. So if I'm telling you something now and you're now following it, and they're saying, Well, I don't know what you mean, and say, Like, watch what I've been doing for the last few minutes, and I do a thing called mirror and matching. I have them all sitting me, and before they realize it, we're all sitting the exact same way. Might take 10 minutes, 15, but we all do it. And they sit and look when you say to them, they go, I don't believe it, when did that happen?

SPEAKER_02 11:32

And it's and it's something you do anyway.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

Yes, yes, it's natural. I didn't make them do that, they just naturally did it because they started to feel comfortable within the conversation. So we start to adapt to suit each other. Pacing, leading, and our simple thing is getting them to go somewhere because just be using certain sentences, and I'll ask you to do a certain thing to follow up. That's me getting you to do that, even though you may have said at the beginning, I don't want to do that, but just by guiding you the right way, you do it. It's simple. Or double bind was another one, it's really great when you use them in corporate because they'll say, I don't want to do this, okay. When would you like to do it before or after we finish the session? So they don't realize that I haven't given them a choice. The choice is you're gonna do it, it's just when you're gonna do it is the choice.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

And just using it. And for a lot of people, they just need to know they have a choice in the matter.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

That's it. So they think they've got the choice, but I see them afterwards. That's all is that's the exact same as we do. It's just allowing you to take away all the external thoughts that cause the problem and stick to focus on what you really need to be focused on to get where you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Yeah, yeah. Now I I remember when I first qualified as an NLP practitioner before I did hypnotherapy, and I was approached by a company in another town to go and work for them as a trainer until I realized that they wanted me to use NLP techniques to close business to teach um salesmen or you know, whoever to close the business. And it wasn't something that sat right with me at all because that's not what I why I wanted to do it.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Well, you're gonna use hypnosis if you want to have some TV as a hypnosis, because it's not fair otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Yeah. So so going back to corporate again, would you is that is that what you do? Do you help um sales people or do you help business people to do that?

SPEAKER_00 13:28

But sales without being salesy, that's what it's called. But it's helping them. There's a little thing I use with every salesperson, and it seems to have been lost somewhere along the way, that I was taught a long time ago, and it's called fab. Simple little thing. You can use it any part of your life, it doesn't have to be sales, it's called feature advantage and benefit. What is the feature of whatever the thing the person wants? What advantage are they going to get by doing that? And what benefit will that give them in their life? So, for a sales thing, if you do it without being salesy, if you find the feature. So, what for example, I worked in a bank for a long time. I worked with people doing mortgages. The biggest thing we had was things called an offset mortgage. It basically meant offset your savings. So you're saying it was working towards actually getting your mortgage paid off quicker. So that was the feature of it was great. The advantage then is if someone gets their mortgage paid off quicker, right? They don't wait up to 20 years or they can get to 15 years, that's the advantage. But the benefit is what were they going to do with that money they've just saved with the end of that? We're not having pay a mortgage for 20 years. So that's the bit you would tell them. And people were like, actually, that it's so you're not selling as in looking, you need a sale. What you're saying to someone is what would they give you? If it gives you that, would that benefit you now? Actually, yeah, then that's the right place for me. That's the right product, that's what they wanted. So you can use that with any part of your life. It doesn't matter what it is, whether you're doing it in coaching, anything. Fab is a great thing. The feature is what is the issue the person's got? What advantage can you get them by getting to a certain point and what would benefit in their life? If you explain hypnotherapy that way to someone and what it does, it's amazing the difference that suddenly happens just by three little words.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

I never thought about it in that way, really. Even though we that's what we do, I never thought about it in that way.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

So you don't sell something for the sake of selling, you sell it because it's a need for the person. Yes, it's something that would suit them.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

If people want to see it, all of us as therapists of some kind, that's the entire point of the exercise.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Yes. So if you're using therapy, you're using coaching, whatever, as long as you remember the person in front of you is what matters. It's not the issue and everything around about it, it's what is it they really want, what is it they want to get to, and what can you do to help them get there? And that's the important bit to always remember you're helping them to get there, you're not making them go there. That's when the old sales techniques were wrong. You were forcing someone to take something or they didn't really need. And if you do it that way, you've also got a lot less sales because if you start doing it and say we coach it anything and help the person, they're more likely to always come back, or at least to get a result of what they actually need.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

I know I know you very well, but for for the the sake of Denise and our listeners or our viewers, can you tell us a little bit about your backstory?

SPEAKER_00 16:03

This is always the question I ask somebody else to get stuck with and I end up the same way. It's the hardest question for anybody to answer. I, as a person, I've always loved helping other people. When I was younger, I haven't I just loved mixing people, meeting people and going. I think that song has always been there. But I think I've always had uh it's a song, and I said I love music, and my wife will say it's a U2 song because I still hadn't found what I'm looking for. I travelled a lot when I was younger because I never could fight figure out what I really wanted. And so getting too deep a story because my wife would kill me with it now. But I met her when we were very young. Uh she was 15, I was 16, but I was joining the Navy, and after a while in there, but it was seven, eight months, I realised she didn't want that life, it wouldn't suit her. It was going to be way too long. I had to go and find myself, she put it, so I kept coming back and forward, coming back and going. Took a long time. I didn't actually come back. That was in 1983 we met, and I didn't actually get back properly to her till 2003. Um, so it took a little while to find my way back again. But I just done a lot of different types of job, and mostly in the security industry, and I loved just meeting the people from every every way of life. Joined the bank for a temporary measure. I'm still there 18 years later, but I joined it as a temporary thing because I couldn't I wanted to move back by well, my wife now, but her journal that I met when I was younger. And I kept working towards something, but didn't know what it was until I got an illness in 2011. Um, one of my kidney started playing up, and then kidney bladder. I started having a lot of kidney infections over and over, and they couldn't seem to understand why. Um, I'd operation after operation, they ended up taking one kidney out because it calcified an amount of infections. I was really ill all the time, in hospital, in and out of hospital. But I realised, I mentioned earlier, they couldn't quite get to what they helping me. Physically, they could, but emotionally, the draining of in and out of the hospital every couple of months, I'd be okay, then go to a doctor because I'm not feeling well, you're straight in the hospital again. The panic always was that uh sepsis, I think, was the biggest worry because of the infections. And I I need to do something, and I met someone who had an old advert on about doing um self-hypnosis introduction, and I went to that over a weekend just to see it. I don't know why I started helping somebody, it was at that session because they needed to help with something else, and it was just easy. Why are you not doing this permanently? Because all we were doing was supposed to be helped how to help yourself over the weekend, but I ended up using it on someone else to help them, and it went, you're not even trained yet. So it made me think, and then that's when the redundancy came up, it gave me the opportunity to do it.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

When you get a contract with a business, do you do group work with them or do you see people with individual okay?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

I do group work. I I'll say I think we mentioned earlier, I do the group work, but I always say to them is if an individual needs help, we can arrange it as a separate thing. So I always put that as caveat into when we work on it because a lot of the things that I've been doing was leadership training, so coaching managers how to be a leader. It's amazing how many people cannot tell the difference with the two, and people don't move into management positions but never get trained. They get trained on processes, on procedures, they don't get trained how to work with individuals and how to suddenly they know how to do the thing, but not how to explain the thing. That's that, and it's it can be such a drain thing, and the stress it can put someone under. So that's when I'd normally get them to work with them, is how to overcome that side. Yeah, and when you do that, I think that was the biggest part, and it leads into other things with them, but that's a great part of it.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Do you get many medical referrals?

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Not no, I did for a while, but it was all it was all to do with suicide ideation. When I trained to my first day, I didn't feel as though I was meeting people who were close to that area, and there wasn't enough training in that. So I went outway myself and trained to sit in gills and learned how to do suicide. And through that, and through some people I met in Glasgow, I started to get a lot of referrals. I had an office in Glasgow that just basically dealt with that. But it was very draining and very difficult for me all the time doing it. And it was the thing I found difficult was there were mostly young girls between 16 and 24. And they already had tried to take their own likes by the time they came to me, usually second or third time before the referrals, and it just I thought what I want to do after rather than dealing with the time is to do more educating on it. So I do a lot more talks on it now to get people aware of you go into schools? No, it's still the same thing in Scotland, it's very difficult to do it unless you're actually uh um medically trained, then they don't really get you doing that. So which is a bit I don't understand it. Same with hypnotherapy here. We've used hypnotherapy within NHS since 1952. It's been used all the time there, but they don't promote it. So unless you are actually medical trained, they don't like you using it. I've tried the things to do help with that. Offer to go into doctor surgeries, GP practices on Monday, which is usually the busiest day for all these things coming in, put me in an office, any spare office you've got on a Monday for the whole day, give me your patients who do not need the medication that they're on anymore. They're whatever things are over, and I will help them. And then if that works, you decide what else I can help with. And I've never had one took me up on it yet, not once.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Um but but you know, that those of us who are medically trained, yes, it isn't that much easier either.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Changing the attitude is what you have to do, but it's generational. We have to change generations now so that going forward they will understand that these things are, and they are a bit more attuned to that now. Uh, but it's just yeah, getting real out in the right places, and as Denisha said, take them away from the difference they understand between a hypnotist and a hypnotherapist. It's all hypnosis, that's the thing you understand. It is all hypnosis, it's not training different, but one is used for entertainment purposes and one is therapeutic. That's the bit that's different for people to differentiate in their own minds.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, well, Tony, Tony and I have got a podcast as well, but it's on hold at the moment, isn't it? So um, but ours is directed uh parents, really, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Parents teach us that anybody who actually had any length to deal with children and children's issues, that's We want to make aware as yeah, that there's so much more help needed for that.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

And what Les does is amazing because I don't know anybody else that does and gets the results that Les gets.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

I just continue to bang my drum, you know, over how good it is for children, the benefits, you know. Um, I did a social media campaign, I think it was about a couple of weeks ago, that basically was telling people, not disrespecting other approaches because it's each to their own, but explaining to people that they pay for the results. They don't pay to come and see us every single week, week after week after week. And that's why we are more expensive than traditional therapy. Oh, because it's so much faster. But yeah, it's faster. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

There are so many the thing is that there is such a wall already getting people to take it seriously that having that price point issue. I think and of course, insurance will I national health will pay for some, I think IBS will pay for it.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

I think when all of the avenues have been exhausted, yeah. Exactly. So you spend all the money first, and then come to the CEOs. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

But a simple way as well looking at that for people is, and I've got a lot of friends who are counselors. I actually got trained, my I've only just not finished my degree on to three years ago, and my degrees in psychology, uh, mental health and counselling. And I've got a lot of counselor friends, and I say to them, certain people need that long-term, that type of therapy, but others don't. So I say a simple thing, and when someone comes to me and they say, I will not, I'm well, I can I kind of do it for that price. I'm can you know do it cheaper? I went, compared to what? Well, that counselor's done. I went, yeah, and how long do you actually work with the counselor before you get in there? He went, Well, minimum of 20 weeks. Okay, so five months is you're not flying out, yeah. Yeah, my idea working with me is I say to you, the longest I've ever worked with anybody, and that was all two separate issues was eight weeks because it was two separate things. It was a deep, deep trauma, and something I was there to work with. I said, So normally I work with people 46 is the maximum I would do with someone. So once I've helped you in 46 weeks, what are you going to do with the other five months you've now got left? And then we can go, I never looked at it that way. Well, kid the money up, would you still be paying for every session for 20? What are you going to pay for me for four or five weeks? Then tell me that that's the difference too expensive. And they're sitting there, I've never looked at it that way. They look at it as because of they also look at it as a per hour thing. That's where they look at the session. I don't work per hour. I work with someone over a situation or a solution to the need. And someday I'll say it might take four weeks, it might take six weeks. Some people can take 45 minutes per session, some can take 90. It depends on what your issue is that I'm dealing with. My role is to get you out of therapy as soon as I can. That's my role. It's not to keep you in therapy, it's not to have you there. Same as a coach. I don't want to be coaching someone for the next five, ten years. I want to get into whatever their destination. I don't see I will get you there. What I'll do is I get you on the journey to get there and give you the tools and resources that you need to get there. I'm not saying I'm going to clear everything up for you in four or successions, but you will have all the tools and the ability to go and do that then. That's the important part that they need to understand.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

I agree with you. And also from my perspective, because I I work predominantly with children, I do see adults, but I work predominantly with children. Traditional therapy, a child, if a child doesn't understand their own emotions and feelings, then how this is how I see it. How can we expect a child to sit there and talk about them if they don't understand them?

SPEAKER_00 25:35

But Les, the thing as well is that I work mostly now with female entrepreneurs because when I was doing all the work with therapy, I realized majority of them were female entrepreneurs who were actually coming to me for therapy because they were feeling as though they had to be a certain way to act in a man's world they were calling it in that world.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Well, I think that's equally helped by you, but don't want to come.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Well, the funny thing is that I used to promote everyone's lesson, though all my content, every social media, was aimed at 45 to 55-year-old males. Because in the UK, Denise, they're the most problems who take their own life as then between that age. That's why I started working with them. In corporate as well, was because there were so many people in pressurized jobs that between those age groups, and what the biggest problem they felt was I need another move because kids are going to go to college or leaving home. They needed that same lifestyle they had, but able to pay for that. And it was putting them under a lot of strain. So I realized, but when I was doing it there, it was mostly women. If someone actually spotted it, not me, realized that 90% of my clients were female, not male, even though I would have been male. So now I do everything for female clients, everything I do because out there is my signature program blast is aimed at female entrepreneurs. But you'd be amazed at how many guys find the company now. But I don't use the language got to them now. But it's because yeah, there's something in the way the language that I use that resonates with them. And exactly that what Denise said. Because before, when I was working mostly in males, they didn't want to come to the Vitami, I'd use somebody else that they knew and they didn't want to be seen as coming to me. But now this way, it's completely different. They'll come now, yeah. And it's I think it's the one thing that I wish we could get more of because Teresa's right, more women all open up, but that's why we get such a high suicide rate in males. It's because they the generational thing has always been not to open up. That's why I say what you do, Les is so important by teaching children now how to understand and how to deal with not cope but deal with their own emotions and their issues. It's simple, it's emotional intelligence. Teach your child emotional intelligence, they will grow up stronger mentally, physically, and emotionally, so that they don't need to come to somebody like me when they're 45, 50 years old and broken.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

I've said that a few times to Denise uh uh throughout these uh podcasts that I would rather treat a child with a child's problem than treat an adult with the child's problem.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Yeah, and that's what most of mine, that's what it is, is they've they come to me with a shit, it's always the same, or I've got anxiety or I've got depression. I don't use those two words, Les and Os, I don't use them in any of my sessions at all. Because nine times out of ten, when someone comes to me, they've never actually been medically diagnosed either of them. They've been given them by someone as a title to have.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

The label, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah, and I went off from the other podcast, I do I go my soapbox when it comes to labels, so I won't mention that now. But what I do say to them is that I work with whatever is causing those things. That's my job. I help you what causes it. I can take the anxiety, the whatever you want to call it, I could take that away, the symptoms of that. But if I don't help you what caused in the first place, it's always going to be time. That's why my job is to find out what the issue is, and then we have to alleviate the emotions tied to the issue. We don't want to change the issues such a lot of time because it's who makes us who we are. We are that person because we've had these experiences, but if we could take those emotions away, then suddenly it doesn't seem so bad. But if we teach children how to do that early enough, they never have those issues with the emotions attached because they're so much more success than all the other IDs.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Yeah, not dealing with it.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

It's getting people to understand the difference between coping and dealing. That's so important to me. We've always been taught how to cope, but you don't deal with it, so they keep coming back and back and back all the time. And they think it's a change they're coming back with, but it's not, it's just different symptoms of the same recurrent issue.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Yeah, it's about managing them, isn't it? Effectively, and effectively being the you know, the main word really. We can we can manage things, but if we manage them not not very good or badly, then they will come back. Whereas if we can manage them more effectively, chances of the coming back are are a lot slimmer.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yeah, I use the word see a lot, I don't see things that you and it's changed with conviction. Yeah, or just change for the sake of changing, change with a conviction that you really want that change and it will happen. That's just how powerful your mind is. The mind doesn't know any different except what we tell it. So if you've got that conviction, you really believe in that, your mind will change. That's why we don't make a change, you do.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Yeah, yeah. I've just done um a course with Tony about getting more direction on my programmes that I'm gonna sell, well, pathways for children. So I've just done that with Tony, and I know he scares the living daylights out of me because if you don't do something, there are consequences, okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Yes, yeah. I have to be careful. I've got to be careful when people say that because it can worry people at community because of that. But I always say that if you want a coach that's going to sit there and say, Yes, yes, yes, you're good, you're right. Don't come to me.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Or don't do the chat GBT's thing. Oh, that's a wonderful idea.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

That's probably yeah, don't do that. It's not for me. I will then make sure someone does it. It's I believe it's because that's the conviction part, that's the bit that's missing. I'm there to help the person to get that conviction. Because otherwise, how many people start a course or do it, never finish it? Or they've got all these things they've done before and never utilized information. That's that's why the ones I do, I don't want it to be like that. So I also do a follow-up, then he's 30 days after it to make sure the person has done it. Not everybody has done the work in the 30 days after. I won't say who, but not everybody has completed it yet in their 30 days. Other ones have, someone didn't in their 30 days, which means they get another call with me now, so they have to do it again. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

This is what it means to me about he's uh he's he's so so good at what he does that just you think I've gotta do it so that it gets off me back.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Rather than saying scary lies, tell people I'm tenacious.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

That sounds like tenacious, tenacious is very no, he's very, very good at uh at what he does, and the little course. Do you want to explain about this little course that you run for for ladies?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Well, a definite one, but the initial one you're talking about um is bring your business idea to mind. Is I have so many people come to me who are set a business up, they want to leave, but they leave for 85 jobs because they want more time with their family and everything, but they do the first thing that comes along to do that and realize what they've really done is changed one job for another. The only difference is that they're the boss now, but that's the other job. That's it. So they end up doing 16, 18 hours a day. So actually, they're working for less money but more hours than they did for someone else. So the idea I have for them is that over three sessions, we get that idea out of your head, whatever it is in there that you really want to do, the thing you're really passionate about, the why you really want to spend that time with your children or your family or whoever it is, when we got that why part and you can understand that is like what have we got to do now to get you to that? So the idea of three sessions is to get a 30-day plan built of how they take every step to make them do it. But the 30-day plan is actions, it's not just you'll do this, they have to actually follow the actions over three evenings and 90-minute sessions, and they follow it and they use the AI to help them to do it because I appreciate not everybody can come up with ideas on the spot, but they use the AI for the ideas, but following the prompts I give them, which means they have to put all the work in, they have to type in all these information and questions to go into it. Then we find what it does, and then we help them to streamline that more focused and right, laser down. What exactly is that? What's going to give you that end result you really want? And it's amazing how many people come and they want money. And so they're always the end result. I want to earn enough money to do it.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

But how many of them know why they want the money?

SPEAKER_00 33:17

That's it. The simple question is, what does the money give you? That's the why. It's not the money. What will it actually give you? I go back to Fab again. Simple. The feature is the money is there. I've got to have the money. The advantage is you'll be able to do things you want to do, but the benefit is what is that thing you really want to do? So you want to be time freedom and you want financial freedom, which is great. But what does it give you? That's what drives you forward. Well, that's yeah, that's what led me to maybe the scary tenacious side. Yeah. Simple thing, there's one simple thing in NLP called the five whys. Ask five five times, it's amazing the difference between the first answer to the last answer. Yeah, and you get closer to getting to what it really matters.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

The little epiphany on the fourth question. Oh, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

And I'd say a lot of the time, I did one the other day with this with somebody the other day, and she got really emotional. And she was like, I didn't expect this at all. And I went, because you've now suddenly realized that realization moment is not getting you where you want to go, but you now know what you really want. That's the bit we now focus on, is getting that, and it's the same with therapy. I've had I'd say this to Les and Lot offices I use, and one of the first things I ever did in it was put down a box of handkerchiefs onto your table. And the first guy they come in titting and went, You must get a lot of women to come in here. What do you think that? And he went, Well, the hankies. I went, No, that's for the guys. The women don't really need them, it's the guys that we can't do. Yeah, yeah, right. Within 15 minutes, I could see his hand all the time moving and pulling back. I went, Look, it's a safe zone in here. Nobody else is going to know. If you need them, I would get anything. I think you do need it. And then they'll take it. And he went, I don't understand what's happening. I went, that's the release. That's the most important moment to me. Not when we get you to where you want to get, but you've got that realization that something's been holding you back, and all that pressure you've put on yourself had to come out. I call it the it's like the kettle syndrome. If you get a kettle and you put your hand over the spout, the lid will explode. That's the same as a human being. If we keep pushing down all the time with coping mechanisms over and over again, eventually it explodes.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

And that's the ER doctor in me says, please do not try this experiment because you're not going to be able to do that. Yes, don't try that at all.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

But it's it's a metaphorical way of looking at it. Um, but it it does give people to understand that, yeah, that's what they do, they keep pushing things down, and it doesn't matter who you are, if we do that, it causes the problems for you. So it's that's the idea of this little course that's that way. And when people are ready, they can go into the larger ones that I do. Uh I do mentorships and that. So that's mostly what I do now is the mentoring side. But this gets them that focus and allows them to go away and actually put something in place. Then when they're ready, they will come back and say, Okay, I know I need to do that.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

That little success can open up so much, too. Yeah, and it's oh it is solvable, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

And a lot of the time they don't need me anymore then because that computer went another path, and to me, that's the brilliant thing. That's why I'm saying we don't need them always come back. It's just seeing that in someone's face to do it. I've got a simple thing, one rule I have with every client. What is it, Les, before the end of the session? What do they need to do? You remember? Do the homework. No, that's not that's yours. That's that's so bad. Les always remembers that, but they have to smile. Simple. Everybody that comes to see me, don't matter what way you come in, it doesn't matter what you like during the session, but you're not allowed to leave to smile. And it and not one of these things, a proper smile they need. I always get saying why, because at least I know for that moment when you leave here, you've got one happy thought of what you just went through. That's it, and it's it's so important that people realize that there's a by something as simple as that we can change it. That's where hypnotherapy comes in. Yeah, something as simple as that, and doing that is hypnotherapy can do it for you. That can be that little spark it gives you that memory, find that place, it's hidden somewhere to find because people forget how to smile. That's what's so important to teach that. Yeah, if we can get that.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Can I ask you where where's this going? Where where's Tony going from now? Fast forward five years.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Get my dinner, I think, after this, probably. Is that what you're asking?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Apart from he's gonna say he's too young to retire, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

But I will never retire, honest. Um, I've always said is my version of retirement is to help the people I want to help as and when I can. That'll be invise the retirement. So if I want to help one that day, I'd do that. If I want to work for a week, I'll do that. If I want to take a year off, I can do that. I have my own modality, which combines a lot of it, NLP, some hypnosis in it, uh all different aspects of coaching, CBT, RDBT as well. I've always said my aim is to have my own coaching skill where I can train people to do it the way that I do it so that they can take that out to other people. It's important to me because I think I hear, especially in the business world, so many people that this are put down by hypnotherapy or CBDM, but just because I change that to something else, it's amazing that people come out to me and put, oh, that sounded amazing, it sounds fantastic. Just because I don't use certain words on it, but that's how they'll be trained is how to utilize all modalities. You never know what that person's gonna need in front of you. So if you don't been able to do that, but I still say out of all the things that I do, the most powerful aspect of it is the hypnotherapy side. Yeah, the one-on-one is saying that's why I still have that office that I use one-on-one for doing it. They built a little place and there wasn't a room in there because I couldn't find a place that didn't have blast windows, and so they built a room for me that I could do this in. It's now called a council room, it's a council coaching room, but I can use hypnotherapy in there, and I still do not want the one in that room. Yeah, you do it online, I do a lot online, but it's much to me. I love having it in the room with someone there when you actually see better the physical result actually happening, yeah, manifestation as it changes. I can't always see it online. Um, I can be on some certain things, but you can't get the whole picture, and you don't always get that feeling that I think you're right. I think one of the things I love about online, I say this to people all the time. Um I've actually like three screens here. I do all different things with things of coaching world, and I say to them is the amazing thing is that what we can actually achieve, but with groups, everything I don't have to go there, and they don't always have to come to an office to meet me. Yeah, I can do groups on here. Now I do group talks, you can do it at different times of the day or evening. I do things for Australia that, which is seven in the morning, I'll do things for America that I've done talks in South Africa, everything. I love whatever it is that we can reach those people. When I did the talk, started doing the world talks as part of a group. They were doing that in person until after COVID, and they couldn't seem to do it anymore. So tried it online, and it was amazing the response online from people because now we can take it into their homes. So when we do any of these talks, it's all aspects of business and um health and wellness, but it's amazing that people can feel in their own home, they feel much more safe, more secure by doing it in their own home as well. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

No, no, no, it doesn't take to you know, kid women who've got children, and yeah, all of a sudden there's a day off school you weren't expecting, and all your appointments go away.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Yeah, and it's it just makes them feel better than do that in your own home. And it's I also think sometimes it can actually speed up the results to get because they don't when you come a lot of traffic and everything, you get to session, you'd already all that worked up before you go on. Right. Uh, we talked a lot about this on uh the podcast at mean less because parents, how many times are stressful to even get to work in the morning because get the kids ready for school, even driving and parking traffic, then traveling to their own work, being able to sit at home and get through all this with the kids at school and you can get that help you need, and between those things that suits you, that can be an amazing thing at all when the kids go to beds are not a common thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Yeah, I've got quite a few children that I see online because I'm very fortunate I have a few fellow hypnotherapists who live further further away that don't want to work with children. So what they do is they re they will refer them to me. Um they just they just don't want to work with children, but of course they'll get inquiries. Yeah, so they'll get inquiries and they'll just go, Well, I don't work with children, but I know somebody who does, yeah, and they'll they will make the referrals to me. So it's great. So I've I've worked with children right across from you know, bottom of the UK to the top of the UK, uh, north, south, east, west, and I've also worked in Ireland, Spain, Portugal, USA, Australia, anywhere. There are all English-speaking families who have moved all in Gotham speaking, yeah. All English-speaking families, yeah. So it's it's good because I think if if one thing that we can take away from COVID, really from the lockdowns, wasn't it that we are able to do this and it's it became more and more popular, didn't it, and more acceptable that you could actually give your service to you know to people online who were thousands of miles away rather than you know, them find somebody else instead.

unknown 41:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

The thing I think I find funny about people who say they don't like working with children or that is I work a lot with therapists. Um, a lot of my clients are therapists, I get, uh, who struggle with either getting a business going or what issues they have. And one of the things I do to take the mind off it, um, Lesno's this thing, I don't like things called that like uh hidden cave and that. And all it is is about them becoming a child again for a certain amount of time. I take them through this cave and they go into the cave, when they go through the door of the cave, everything seems to be getting bigger and bigger, and they can't understand why until they look at themselves in a pond that's in the cave, and suddenly they realize that's them back to being child, and they can have so much fun, and then as they leave, it gets narrow and narrow again, and that's when they come back to the adult, but they know they can come back there anytime they want and let all their responsibilities go and just enjoy that little bit of time out and do whatever they want in there or whoever they want, and it's amazing because what they start to realize they should realize is that's their imagination that does all of that. I don't do any of that, I just put them in, let them do what they want when they're in there. But if they can do that and take themselves like that, imagine what they could do if they help the children the same way. Yeah, um, all those things are way to kill them, they're worrying about you can make them go somewhere like that in their own minds, wherever they want to go, and they feel bad, they've got a little place they can go and do that. And I say a lot of the person you can work with anybody. There's nothing that we cannot do with anybody in age. Then he said the earlier evening about people in the industry, how different ages are working with people themselves doing it. It's one of those things that isn't limited by age, it's limited by the limits that we give ourselves. That's the only thing. And you can help anybody with it as long as the person is willing, they want to change, then you can help anybody.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

What a way to you could do a pre-session of I want to want to, you know, you can help get to that point as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Yeah, it's that's it. It's getting them to understand. We said again, but we said, Why did you want to do it? It's simple, it's getting them to that point. Once they understand that and they know that, then and it's a simple thing you ask them, do you want to change? Yeah, you ready to change? Yeah, you want to do it now? Yeah, oh my god. As soon as you tell them so, they tell themselves that they know that it's set in their mind then I want to change now, then it's Fine, you can go ahead and do it.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

So all your details, Tony, we'll we we will put on in the show notes anyway, so um people can contact you. But if I asked you one thing that you could give us, one little golden nugget that you could leave with us, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 44:18

That would be that a smile can change everybody's day. Simple as that. If you can get someone to smile in your sessions, anything, get that person. What did they come in? Get them to smile before they leave. You're amazing how good you feel and they feel, and especially a child. If a child is in there because they're worried about uh some darkness or darkness feels they don't understand, they come in, they're frightened, whatever. That child leaves you smiling. There is no better feeling in the world than watching the person's face. What they come in, they can leave for that smile on their face.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

It's the worry everybody is it's an amazing thing. Do it yourself.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

There's one thing that Tony did teach me. It was one of your onlineers that you said about um you listen to understand, you don't listen to reply.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

And and I love that, and I say that to the children, I say that to the parents, you know, when they say, Well, I'm listening, you know, but no, nothing's coming back. You say listen to understand. Do you understand what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_02 45:17

You can get people to do that educational subject. Right. So I do I'm I'm listening for the cue for what the question will be when you have the test next week. Yeah, listen so you understand what's going on now.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Yeah, but simply if you get a relationship issue, that's normally the issue. All these other things, if you're gonna argue about the issues, normally neither of you listen to each other. You listen because you're already going to reply to whatever you think they're gonna say and you miss exactly what they say because you're already doing that. Stop that, and you'll be amazing how many people do not fight anymore, don't argue anymore just because of that one simple thing.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

If you had a client who came for problem X, who then realized how helpful the system was and asked about a marital issue or a relationship issue, would you consider continuing with that person who knew you, or you would refer them to somebody else? And is there somebody else with your skills that you could recommend them to?

SPEAKER_00 46:10

No, I I know if it's a client I've been already and I have done this, then yeah, I will help. Uh what I normally do is I get them to get the other person to come in on a single session, first of all, to have a conversation so that I can make sure the report is there. Uh it's no point in the two of them coming in if one's got a work rate and the other one doesn't want to be there because they're there because they want them to be there. I need to make sure they want to be there. If it's my client will do that, if not, that was the ironic thing is uh about six months ago I got quite a few queries about this, and I had difficulty finding someone who would actually take them on. But I now know a counsellor uh from here, uh a couple of them in our building that I'm in, uh that yeah, they would be able to deal with that if they came in because they do more of that than me. So yeah, I would happily, but I have what called trust advisors, I call them. There's a little group of people around about me who can do things that I don't feel I'm an expert in that field, but I'd be happy to pass them to them because I would go to them, I would trust it enough to go to them. So if I'm willing to do it, I'm happy to send someone else there, like Les with the children. I'd say same with everybody. If I've got a child or somebody causes me a child that's an issue that I don't feel as I can really deal with uh or I'm struggling with, I would happily pass them to Lesn to deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Thank you. Thanks, but thank you. We're almost out of time. Thank you very, very much. It's been lovely to see you, but it reminds me that I must get my homework done before he uh set a force to kick my backside when I'm doing this.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yes. Tenaciously, not scarily, tenaciously remember, not scarily quick.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

No, he's fantastic. Anyone who wants to work with Tony, it's um it's a read the show notes, details are there. Very, very good investment. Yeah, and all thank you very much for coming.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

It's a it is a pleasure being both to both yeah, but also um for people at their ability to get a better start, what you're trying to do is to get people understand more aware about how much Hitler said, but really will help people. So I hope he's uh I'll happily promote this as well so I can get more people listening to your program as well, so understanding it.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Thank you. So if we just say goodbye and then um okay. Hi everybody, thank you for having me on.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Take care.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Bye. Thank you the most, only thank you. Bye-bye. We hope you've enjoyed listening. Please remember this podcast is designed to give you an insight into therapeutic hypnosis, and it's for educational purposes only. So remember, consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you've heard may apply to you or a loved one.