with Astrid Harms

Denise Billen-Mejia MD CH www.healandberadiant.com                                                  office@aahypnosis.com

Les Roberts Dip.Hyp GHR ADPR GQHP www. Lesrobertshypnotherapy.co.uk              contact@lesrobertshypnotherapy.co.uk

Astrid Harms  www.astridharms.com                                                                                   https://www.youtube.com/@soulessensecoaching

 Welcome to Two Hypnotherapists Talking with me, Denise Billen-Mejia, in Delaware, USA. (0:06) And me, Les Roberts, in St Helens, United Kingdom. (0:10) This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who would like to know more (0:14) about the fascinating world of hypnosis and the benefits that it offers.(0:19) I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and specialist in working with children. (0:24) And I'm a retired medical doctor and consultant hypnotist. (0:30) We are Two Hypnotherapists Talking.(0:33) So let's get on with the episode. (0:36) Welcome, welcome to the next episode. (0:41) And we have a lovely guest on today.(0:43) And her name is Astrid Harms. (0:46) Astrid is a hypnotherapist and coach in Amsterdam. (0:50) And she works with clients from all over the world.(0:52) Her background is in TV media. (0:56) And she has a degree in technical communication. (0:59) Astrid has a passion for making complex ideas clear and accessible.(1:05) A skill she now brings to her work in hypnotherapy. (1:09) Astrid's deeply fascinated by the mind-body connections (1:12) and the frontiers of human consciousness. (1:15) So Astrid stays up to date on all the latest research in neuroscience, (1:20) cell biology, biochemistry, cognitive science.(1:24) Astrid specializes in challenging issues such as tinnitus and chronic conditions. (1:31) And what Astrid does is she combines hypnosis and coaching (1:34) with evidence-based insights from mind and body science. (1:40) So welcome, Astrid.(1:41) And it's lovely to have you here. (1:42) Thank you. Lovely to be here, Liz.(1:44) And thanks for the introduction. (1:46) Okay. Okay.(1:47) We've met a few times, haven't we, at the conventions. (1:50) And we managed to have some meaningful conversations in Antwerp, didn't we? (1:57) So the reason why I asked you to come on was if you could talk about tinnitus with us. (2:03) Because we have quite a few clients, don't we, Denise, with tinnitus.(2:09) I've got one at the moment as well. (2:11) So it would be very, very interesting for you to give us a talk on it. (2:15) Oh, yeah, sure.(2:16) Yeah, so tinnitus isn't just a noise in the head. (2:19) I mean, for the person it is, of course it is. (2:23) And nobody else can hear it, usually.(2:27) So clients are very much left alone. (2:29) And there's no official medication or device for it to cure it. (2:35) So doctors usually say, there is nothing you can do.(2:38) You have to live with it. (2:39) And that's what sends some people off on a downward spiral. (2:43) And others, they become either desperate or negative.(2:48) Because, you know, you have to live with it. (2:49) Most of the people I've met who suffer from that are also exhausted. (2:54) Yes.(2:55) It doesn't ever stop. (2:57) It never stops. (2:58) Well, for some people it does, actually.(3:00) When they focus on something else or when it's dependent on either stress or other input, (3:06) like food or pressure or whatever it is, then it can go away, too, or become quieter. (3:13) So it can change in volume, in how much annoyance it brings. (3:17) With the day, there's so many.(3:21) And some clients even have different noises. (3:23) Some have musical tinnitus. (3:25) So they hear really... (3:26) That sounds pleasant.(3:29) Yeah, well, it depends. (3:31) Yeah, it goes on too long. (3:32) Even if you listen to your favorite song all day long, at some point it gets on your nerves.(3:37) So, yeah. (3:39) But yeah, so tinnitus for the clients is, yeah, it eats up their patience. (3:44) It makes some of them anxious.(3:46) Others become used to it. (3:48) And they're like, oh, God, this is annoying. (3:50) And they usually come to us, hypnotherapists, as a last resort.(3:53) They've tried everything else. (3:55) They might have been told very often. (3:57) They're told by their doctors, well, try to reduce stress.(4:01) Try to change your diet. (4:02) Maybe exercise more. (4:04) You know, the usual lifestyle advice.(4:06) And that is all correct. (4:07) But most people don't know how to do that or can't get themselves to do that. (4:11) Reducing stress is what I do mainly.(4:14) And reducing that anxiety with the tinnitus. (4:18) But we also work on the underlying factors. (4:20) Because tinnitus very often is just a symptom and not a disease or a condition in itself.(4:26) It can become a condition when it is the cause of distress, anxiety and more. (4:31) So that's when it's called a disorder very often or just a condition. (4:36) So as a symptom, it can be a symptom of over 200 causes and comorbidities.(4:42) It may start and nobody knows exactly why all of the cases come about. (4:48) There are four or five or maybe even more models that we can use to explain where it comes from. (4:56) And in my experience, most of them cover part of it, but none of them cover all.(5:00) So the clinical explanation is it's a heterogeneous or mixed group of conditions (5:09) stemming from a big diversity of causes. (5:12) That's as defined as we can get it. (5:17) So yeah, it might be from becoming deaf or hearing loss.(5:22) It might be from somatosensory issues and head and neck issues. (5:26) It might be from inflammatory issues, chronic conditions. (5:30) Medications, cancer medications, certain vaccines or diseases may cause it.(5:37) And also, of course, the huge psychological side that we definitely can help with. (5:41) Sorry, my cat's trying to climb on the desk. (5:45) And yeah, but we can do a lot with hypnotherapy, (5:49) even in the fields of inflammatory causes and somatosensory causes, (5:53) because we work a lot or we can work a lot in pain.(5:57) And it's very often compared to chronic pain, too, (6:00) which is not the full picture, but it can be. (6:02) And yeah, we've got so much influence on all the little parts and bits with hypnotherapy (6:07) that move tendencies. (6:09) If you imagine like a stew that's on the fire and the stress (6:12) that comes through the tendencies is the big fire.(6:15) And all the ingredients is what we're picking out (6:17) so that we get a clear soup at some point. (6:18) Well, that clear soup, forget the clear soup, (6:20) but we want to reduce the issues and we want to reduce the distress as well. (6:26) And that's where we usually have a lot of success (6:30) with reducing, first of all, the distress itself.(6:34) And then also the sound itself can go down because the distress is reduced. (6:39) Right. That explains a lot, though, really, doesn't it? (6:42) That explains a lot with tinnitus, especially, like you said.(6:46) Does it ever occur just on its own? (6:49) No. Good, good question, because most or lots of researchers have found (6:55) that tinnitus has two or more causes that occur together to create tinnitus. (7:01) So many of my clients, they will have had something like (7:05) adverse childhood experiences or trauma in childhood (7:08) and then something else coming up out of one of the different groups.(7:12) So inflammatory cause or more stress. (7:17) So those kinds of things or just noise trauma. (7:21) Veterans are very susceptible to getting tinnitus.(7:24) And that's actually one of the highest, one of the most important reasons (7:28) why veterans, you know, become disabled. Tinnitus. (7:33) Wow.Wow. (7:35) I've got a client at the moment who I'm seeing, (7:38) and she has quite a few complex conditions. (7:43) She like fibromyalgia.(7:47) That's a big connection. (7:49) Yeah. And also she's been in a few road traffic accidents where, (7:55) you know, she's not broken any bones, but she's, you know, (7:58) she's had some impact onto her shoulders, onto her neck.(8:02) So I think that explains it really, doesn't it? (8:05) Well, I wouldn't be definite about it because there's always (8:10) reasons that might be above our capability. (8:13) So I would always send a client when they haven't been to the doctor, (8:16) I would send them to the doctor, (8:17) maybe have them look at just the ears because it might just be earwax. (8:21) That's blocking the ear canal.(8:23) Just be something simple like that. (8:25) And I don't think it's fair to have a client come to you, pay for sessions, (8:28) and then afterwards find out they've only got earwax on their ears. (8:31) That would be stupid.(8:33) But OK, it might also be something like a tumor or something else, something. (8:37) Yeah, something important going on that we shouldn't overlook (8:40) because we can't diagnose. I can't diagnose.(8:41) No, no, not at all. (8:42) As you know, I don't see anybody unless their doctor said it's OK. (8:48) I've actually had permission of her doctor because it was her doctor that (8:52) recommended that she went for hypnosis.(8:55) Yeah, fibromyalgia is a very common one, yeah. (8:58) So that would potentially be where I say this fits into the inflammatory bracket. (9:05) Fibromyalgia is also one of those, for so long it was an imaginary disease (9:11) that people give themselves a label.(9:13) And it really is only in the last few years that it's become accepted (9:17) that it's an actual diagnosis. (9:19) Yeah, because you're a retired doctor, Denise, aren't you? (9:25) W

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Two Hypnotherapist Talking with me, Denise Bill and Mahia in Delaware, USA.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

And me, Letter Opposit, in St. Helens, United Kingdom.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

This weekly podcast is for anyone and everyone who would like to know more about the fascinating world of hypnosis and the benefits that it offers.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

I'm a clinical hypnotherapist and specialist in working with children.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

And I'm a retired medical doctor and consultant hypnotist.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

We are two hypnotherapists talking. So let's get on with the episode. Welcome, welcome to the next episode. And we have a lovely guest on today, and her name is Astrid Harms. Astrid is a hypnotherapist and coach in Amsterdam, and she works with clients from all over the world. Her background is in TV, media, and she has a degree in technical communication. Astrid has a passion for making complex ideas clear and accessible, a skill she now brings to her work in hypnotherapy. Astrid's deeply fascinated by the mind-body connections and the frontiers of human consciousness. So Astrid stays up to date on all the latest research in neuroscience, cell biology, biochemistry, cognitive science. Astrid specialises in challenging issues such as tinnitus and chronic conditions. And what Astrid does is she combines hypnosis and coaching with evidence-based insights from mind and body science. So welcome, Astrid. And it's lovely to have you here. Thank you. Lovely to be here, Liz. And thanks for the introduction. Okay. Okay. We've met a few times, haven't we, at the conventions and we managed to have some meaningful conversations in Antwerp, didn't we? So the reason why I asked you to come on was if you could talk about tinnitus with us, because we have um we see quite a few clients, don't we, Denise, with tinnitus. I've got one at the moment as well, so it would be very, very interesting for you to give us a talk on it.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, so tinnitus isn't just a noise in the head. It's I mean, for the person it is, of course it is, and nobody else can hear it, usually. So clients are very much left alone, and they there's no no official medication or device for it to cure it. So doctors usually say there is nothing you can do, you have to live with it. And that's what sends some some people off on a downward spiral, and others are just they become yeah, de either desperate or negative because you know you have to.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Most of the most of the people I've met who suffer from that are also exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Yes, it it doesn't ever stop. It never stops. Or well, for some people it does actually, when they focus on something else, or when it's dependent on either stress or other input like food or pressure or whatever it is, then it can go away too, or become quieter. So it changes, it can change in in volume, in uh how much annoyance it brings, it can change with the day, or yeah, that there's so many, and and some clients even have different noises, some have musical tinnitus, so they hear really property. Oh, that sounds pleasant. Yeah, well, well, it depends. Yeah, it doesn't even if you listen to your favorite song uh all day long, at some point it gets on your nerves. So yeah, but uh yeah, so tinnitus uh for the clients is yeah, it eats up their patients, it uh makes them some of them anxious, others become used to it, and they're like, oh god, this is annoying. And they usually come to us, hypnotherapists, as a last resort, they've tried everything else. They might have been told very often, they're told by their doctors, well, try to reduce stress, try to change your diet, maybe exercise more, you know, the usual lifestyle advice, and that is all correct. But most people don't know how to do that or can't get themselves to do that. Reducing stress is what I do mainly in reducing that anxiety with the tinnitus, but we also work on the underlying factors because tinnitus very often is just a symptom and not a disease or a condition in itself, it can become a condition when it is the cause of distress, anxiety, and more. So that's when it's called a disorder, very often, or this condition. So, as a symptom, it can be a symptom of over 200 causes and comorbidities. May start, and nobody knows exactly why all of the cases come about. There are four or five, or maybe even more models that we can use to explain why where it comes from. And in my experience, most of them cover part of it, but none of them cover all. So the the clinical explanation is it's a heterogeneous or mixed group of conditions stemming from a big diversity of causes. That's as as as defined as we can get it. So, yeah, there's it might be from becoming deaf or hearing loss, it might be from somatosensory issues and head and neck issues, it might be from inflammatory issues, chronic conditions, medications, cancer medications, uh certain vaccines or diseases can may cause it. And also, of course, the huge psychological side that we definitely can help with. Sorry, my cat's trying to climb on the desk. And yeah, but we can we can do a lot with hypnotherapy even in the fields of inflammatory causes and somatosensory causes, because you know, we work a lot or we can work a lot in pain, and it's all very often compared to chronic pain, too, which is not the full picture, but it can be. And yeah, we we've got so much influence on all the little parts and bits with hypnotherapy that that move tinnitus. You know, if you imagine like a stew that's on a fire, and the stress that's comes through the tinnitus is the big fire, and all the ingredients is what we're picking out so that we get a clear soup at some point. Well, that clear soup, forget the clear soup, but we want to we want to reduce the reduce the issues and we want to reduce the distress as well. And that's where we usually have a lot of success with reducing first of all the distress itself, and then also the the sound itself can go down because the distress is reduced.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Right. That explains a lot, though, really, doesn't it? That explains a lot with tinnitus, especially like you said. Does it ever occur just on its own?

SPEAKER_00 6:35

No. Good good question, because most or lots of researchers have found that tinnitus uh has two or more causes that occur together to create tinnitus. So many of my clients they will have had something like adverse childhood experiences or trauma in childhood, and then something else coming up out of one of the one of the different groups, so inflammatory cause or more stress. Yeah. So those those kinds of things, or just noise trauma. Veterans are very susceptible to getting tinnitus, and that's actually one of the highest, one of the most important reasons why veterans, you know, uh become disabled. Tinnitus.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Wow. Wow. I've I've got a client at the moment who I'm seeing, and but she has quite a few complex conditions. Um she likes fibromyalgia. Oh, that's that's that's a big connection, yeah. And also she's been in a few road traffic accidents where you know she's not broken any bones, but she's you know, she's had some impact onto her shoulders, onto a neck. So I think that explains it really, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Well, I wouldn't I wouldn't define be definite about it because there's always reasons that might be above our capability. So you would I would always send a client when they haven't been to the doctor, I would send them to the doctor, maybe have them look at just the ears, because it might just be earwax that's blocking the ear canal. Just be something simple like that. And I don't think it's it's fair to have a client come to you pay for sessions and then afterwards find out they've only got earwax. Just earwax. That would be stupid. But okay, uh it might also be something like uh like a tumor or something else, something yeah, something important going on that we shouldn't overlook because we can't diagnose. I can't no, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

No, what I do know, I don't see anybody unless the doctor said it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

So yeah, I I have I've actually had permission of her doctor because it was her doctor that recommended that she she went for hypnosis.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

She's she's fibromyalgia is is a very common one, yeah. So that would potentially be where I where I say this this fits into the inflammatory bracket.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Fibromyalgia is also one of those things for for so long it was an imaginary disease that people had, give themselves a label. And it really is only in the last few years that it's been accepted that it's an actual diagnosis.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

What's um very much, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Yeah, because you you you're a retired doctor, Denise, aren't you? What is the difference between ME and fibromyalgia?

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Is it the same or this is for the benefit of the No, they're it is different, and because we are hopefully broadcasting both in the US and the UK, now you can say the chronic fatigue syndrome is what we call it again scale. Yeah, yeah, it's it is different but similar in many ways. Okay. It's interesting that the COVID vaccine, sorry, the COVID itself, the epidemic has obviously that was hideous and it was terrible. The world had it go through it. But one of the bright things that's come out is that people are giving a lot more respect to chronic fatigue-like symptoms. So many people came out of that with significant impact.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

And chronic fatigue can happen at any age, really, can't it? Because I I know of some teenagers that have had that in the past.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

My niece, who is only just she she got it, she was about to go in. She she chose in her O levels, but she hadn't started studying yet. So she was about 14, 15. She's about 22 and she's just left home. She was in a bedroom for close to 10 years. Yeah. Because of that, with tons of hospital visits, also.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Yeah. So Astrid, can you tell us sort of what things I know you combine coaching and hypnotherapy together, don't you? What sort of what sort of things do you do?

SPEAKER_00 10:32

So, first of all, I will always explain what we know in science about tinnitus because most people have been told by the doctor that there's nothing we can do, or they have some misconceptions about tinnitus, like if I if I'm going deaf, then I can never do anything about tinnitus. That is wrong because you have lots of people who are going deaf or are losing hearing. Um and they don't have tinnitus. So, and also there are there's evidence that tinnitus can go away. I had it a few years ago from huge stress. I had it for five months, so I was still in the acute phase. After six months, you say it becomes chronic about that time, but mine went away. And now when it comes on, I can actively tell it to go away. Thank you. And you know, it'll go away. It'll tell me something. There's the way I work is usually I explain the model that I've explained to you, whether it's auditory, it's somatosensory, inflammatory, or more psychological. This this kind of this is something I've made up because 200 causes and comorbidities is too long, too much. And people start telling you about medications they're taking. And it's like, I can't tell you to stop that. I'm not a doctor. I do not diagnose, prescribe, or do anything. So the you know, what you have might fit into those categories. And if you have something serious, please see a doctor first. I will explain to them where it can come from, like the rough four directions it can come from. And I tell them what I've found in practice is that tinnitus very often has one of four functions. And they will maybe not recognize that function first at first, but after a while they're like, oh yeah, that that might be where it came from. So the functions are usually it's it's just a leftover alarm. That's the usual, the oldest theory that we have. You know, the brain's filling in for sound that we can't hear anymore. What I've found is also it's it can be a warning signal from the inside. And warning signal, I say, well, kind of loosely. It's like pain if you you know, see it like pain. Pain is a warning signal. Don't you know step on your toe if you've heard your toe. So it's warning you from something about something from the inside, inflammatory, it's warning about something from the outside. That's especially with people who are in negative relationships, let's put it like that, or in in environments, work environments or whatever, where a lot of stress.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

That's yeah, stress again.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah, yeah, stress again. So, yes, but you know, one of the four functions will always yeah, kind of resonate with them. And there's also a wall function, the fourth one, just that one, where people just generally want to say or they will experience something for if you I do regression, or they come back and they say, Oh, there was this time when I just didn't want to hear whatever this person said or what was going on. So those are the four functions, and most clients can find themselves in one of those.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

If you realize when you're working with somebody what is causing it, do you ever then say, Okay, we're gonna stop here. You need to go see Dr. X for this kind of a problem or that kind of a problem?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Or or how does how does the normal natural flow of the natural flow the natural flow is I will always ask them how long have you had it? So if it's only been a short while, there's always a chance of them getting better by go seeing a doctor. There's you know, steroids or whatever they get prescribed from the doctor, that it goes away, or that it's just a temporary thing with an acute infection or something of the like. That's what I watch when it's been only a short time or when they are very anti-medical establishment. You get that too. I never see a doctor, I always decide everything on my own. However, you know, I can't take the responsibility of there being anything serious if if they've got neurological problems, if they have asymmetric tinnitus, like only in one ear, I would send those are the the usual guidelines that you can look up. I believe it's tinnitus UK where where they have them as well, or several other several other places where where you can find the guidelines when to send somebody with tinnitus to a specialist or the GP. Thank you. So very often people will say that there's only one event that caused the tinnitus, but then when we while we work with one another, and I usually do five sessions, they'll find that there have been more events causing it or more things that they do. So we'll go through also, yeah, the nutrition. I have a I'm not a nutritionist, but I have a basic certification in nutrition, so I can look at it and recommend something that's scientifically supported, like the Mediterranean. What sort of things or anticipation?

SPEAKER_01 14:50

What sort of things would affect trigging triggering?

SPEAKER_00 14:53

It's the inflammation you're talking about rather than oh uh not necessarily the inflammation, but uh what triggers the noise. So this is this is so many things. So some people take supplements to reduce it and it'll go up. Some anxiolytics will, for some people, reduce the tinnitus, and for others make it stronger, which is really bad. And then they might they might have prescription medication that has, as a side effect, tinnitus. So once they switch that, and that's another cool reason to send it back to the doctor. I'll tell them look at you know the leaflet and and get back to your doctor if you see that as a side effect, especially when it started around that time, they started taking the medication. So, what may influence it but doesn't have to, maybe coffee, maybe alcohol, maybe yeah, nicotine is is one of those, but not for everyone. So some people will stop drinking coffee in the hopes that it'll make it better. And if there's no improvement, why stop drinking coffee? You know, take if you take all the pleasure out of your life, you know, it drives you differently.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

What would you consider a reasonable trial period of coffee as the guilty party?

SPEAKER_00 15:59

A couple of weeks or well, a couple of weeks. I mean, you're the doctor, obviously, obviously. So if it's a couple of weeks that you're not gonna be asking, I'm not gonna take it campaign. I would have a real problem with having coffee with or without. Yeah. So um, yeah, I mean, two weeks uh might be a good one, but that's up to them. I don't prescribe again, I don't tell them to eat or not eat anything or drink. But yeah, I'll I might tell them to do a diary, to keep a diary, and sleep is an important one. Yeah, some clients will wait.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

It actually sounds a lot like when you're trying to figure out why people get migraines. It's so many things that can figure out.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

There is a big connection between migraines and tinnitus. There is a connection also between ADHD and tinnitus. And I've uh yeah, the other day I was uh given a workshop and somebody said this sounds so much like ADHD. And I'm like, Yep, it is. But yeah, migraines, there's as I said, it's very often a symptom of something else. But as soon as you understand as a client, as somebody with tinnitus, where it comes from and what you can change to improve it, then just the knowledge of that helps reduce. Sense of control is a wonderful thing. Yeah, and we want to fix it. They're also very often in a sympathetic state, in a fight or flight mode. And I haven't been in any other mode because you know, there's something in their mind, in their head, they can't flee from. It's a kind of traumatic situation as well, or it can can be, and this stresses them because if you we know that noise, for example, living next to a motorway or somewhere else, uh constant noise can make you either depressed or make you make you feel hyper-alert. Hyper alert, yeah, absolutely. Oh god, you've got jumpy clients, you've got anxious clients, and then you've got the types who just went to a concert or are musicians, and they're like, Yeah, it was just there one day. And so there's so many different types of clients.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

I I know when you do go to when you do go to a concert, when you go to a loud place, you do get that ringing in your ears that lasts for quite a few hours, doesn't it? But it seems to to fade away. When it doesn't fade away, you know, and you've got that concert, it must be so debilitating.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Yeah, it can be. I mean, there's 2.3% of the population uh who have tinnitus. Oh no, 2.3%. Don't even quote me on that, but I don't know whether it's people who have tinnitus or the entire population where it becomes absolutely debilitating. Yeah, and they won't work, they they lose cognitive abilities, they can't concentrate, focus.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah, it can be really, really impactful. And what we haven't spoken about yet is the impact it can have on families. Because my my mother had it when she was in her 40s. I was very little, and all of a sudden you weren't allowed to speak to your mom anymore. So, you know, children's lying down in the room. She's lying down, or everything is stressing her out. So, you know, you you kind of lose something as a child. But also, many people with tinnitus become so anxious of doing anything that might trigger a spike or might make it louder, that the partner or the family does everything for them. They stop going out, they stop being social, they they don't take part in any activities anymore. And that is very often even worse. So they get really isolated in in their home or you know, stop working. And my my mum became a yeah, bit of a body recruit, really. Well over time.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

When you're working with someone like this, do you see them physically or do you work online? I work online only. Me too. It's another well I'd like to have an office, but uh yeah, it's uh but it's another COVID you know side effect because so many people had to learn that Zoom is our friend that I I don't get pushed back at all from anymore. What's really lovely is that when they finish the session, they're already in their own safe space. Exactly from venture space.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

I can't complain because my my office is what four four meters. You're always in 45 meters. Only since last week, uh I've only been in it just a week and a half uh 45 meters away. So I go with my coffee or you know my walk. Yeah, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Do you think you'll get more people seeing you in person? Because you do work online quite often, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Me? Yes, I do I do, yeah. I think I think this is gonna help because I was in I was in our town centre, Astrid, and in order for clients to come and see me, because I was in a pedestrianised part of the town centre where it was more of a walkway, like a mall. Everybody had to go and pay for parking. I didn't work Sundays, so it was parking on a weekday. It was free if it was after six o'clock at night, and parking on a Saturday, and they had to pay. Whereas here, I've got my own driveway that holds about three cars. So I just make sure that my husband can move the car if he needs to go out while I've got clients, and it's literally just a walk into you know, to outside.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Oh, lovely. That's really good.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Hopefully, by this time next week, I'll be in there and be able to present from in there or you know, record there's no electricity yet, so we're just waiting for the electrician to come.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Lovely.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Yeah, it's it is gorgeous, it is lovely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

So yeah how do people find you, Astrid? How do people find me? Yeah. Uh my website is astridharms.com. That's a forward at the moment, but it's going to be my website. And it will be it will be on the people in the read. Yeah, so yeah, just um I mean I work with discovery calls always. I don't have people just book a session because I want to know them first and see whether I can actually help them before they spend any money. Of course.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

And the other thing, of course, your English is incredibly good.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Have you uh did you study in English? Uh did I study in English? Well, I've been speaking English. Well, I I went to the United States. States when I was sixteen. Oh, and have been speaking English ever since. And I read, I watch TV in English.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

So you'll see people both in Dutch and in English. I was just thinking of that. Unfortunately, us English people have a very bad track record of learning other people's languages. Well, I'm speaking Spanish language, but I won't do therapy in Spanish.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Oh no, it took me, it took me ages. I I live in the Netherlands, but I don't I don't speak Dutch on a level where I would say it's like it comes to me naturally. So I'm actually German. And it took me a long time before I started doing sessions in Dutch. And I prefer what do you use German ever? I do. Yeah, I have German clients too. Yeah. And that's easy. English is easy. Dutch works now, but uh that's also a reason why I've got an online office.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Right, right. So is German your native language? Yes, right, right. I'm learning Italian at the moment on online.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

But you but you're not expecting to welcome any Italian comments.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

I'm 45% through the course.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

It's um it's taken me, I think I'm 600 and something days, you know, on you really do have to live be physically in a place where you can't default to English.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

No, that's so true. Yeah, and the reason why I'm doing it is because I used to, I used to, not anymore, I used to be quite fluent in well, sort of semi-fluent in Spanish and French. But if you don't use it, you lose it very, very quickly, don't you? So it's been about 30 odd years since I've used it. So I thought I can still I can still get away. So if I go to Spain, I can still understand. If I go to France, I can still understand. So and I like Italy. So I thought, you know what? I'm gonna learn the lingo.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

I love doing uh well, I used to love doing past life regression as well. I still do future vision sessions, which is also part of very often of tinnitus.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Um, would you mind explaining what that is? That's the first time I've heard that term.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Future visioning. Oh, that is something that I've learned from Anne Gersh, who has written several books on the topics actually. I'm running a workshop tomorrow, but that's on visualization for the future. So it does have some scientific benefits to it, or some uh yeah. Okay, so that's what I did in Belgium and in Dublin where we where we met Les. I was doing a uh a presentation on how this future visioning actually has a logical scientific background, how you can why it works, because it does work. We just didn't know why, or I didn't know why. So it's taking a client into a very vivid visualization of their future, very often in different ways, or there's so many different formats that you can do to give them the the feeling of of that future already. And what basically happens to be very brief, is you kind of pull the goals that you had in the future, somewhere in the future, closer towards you, and you you kind of embody them, you believe more in them. You know, it's it's it's very it has a very strong effect. So that's I I can see that working with saying university students.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

So what got me through medicine? I will eventually get to the goal.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Eventually, yeah. No, what you what I would do with a with a university student is I would probably put them in and they've finished their exams and or they are just finishing them in in that moment and they're the way they're feeling when they're getting their their grades, everything, you know, and then just plant that feeling in them and anchor it. You know, just make the stronger you make a feeling, the longer you let a person in it, I find that the better it works for afterwards. And it's just like when you're looking towards the future and you see bleak nothing and you don't know what what to expect, you'll be much more careful taking the next steps towards it. But when you can see clearly, oh yeah, this is what I'm gonna do, that's my goal, it's much easier.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

So we all you we all use future pacing, don't we, in one way or another. But this is just taking it just that little bit further, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Oh, it's it's much further. Future pacing is just, yeah, well, just imagine what it's going to be like. Yeah, but in future visioning, you they talk back to you there, like in regression or past life, whatever. They talk back to you, they explain to you what they're feeling, and depending on what on the context, whether it's about their life, about their career, about their health, anything. They sometimes it helps them or it can help them figure out what they actually want.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Well, I I was about to ask that, do they ever realize during that that that isn't really where they want to go?

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah. Well, well, the one okay, so so the one that I love the most is the crystal tower, which is one of them, which is one of the ways you you describe it. It's like three different lives that you explore, and one of them is actually the life that you would lead if you didn't change anything.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

This was the one that you did in Belgium, isn't it? This one. The one I did in Belgium, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That was when you when you're doing something, when you're not happy with your life and you come for a future visioning session, then you know you need to change something already. Maybe you don't know what. But when you go to that life that you've that you would be living if you went on the way you were, and you see all the regrets and the obstacles anyway, then it's much easier to identify, oh, I need to change this. Yeah, and you've also got that contrast of this, this is not what I want versus, oh, this is what I actually want. And it's a very strong psychological effect.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

And you do this as you do this as a a little workshop or a course.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Yeah. Well, this is this is going to be tomorrow. I'll I'll have a replay as well at some point. Maybe I don't know whether this is going to be a point for the for the podcast. But yeah, so I'm doing a live session uh tomorrow. I've got quite a few people on where I'm going to explain every detail of that protocol and how to ask the right questions, how you use a session and the information you get to produce the best hypnotherapy session for that client. Because I always work very, very client-centered. And if they tell me this is my goal, and you know, the the way they speak and the words they use, this is what I'm going to use back to them. I mean, we all should know that.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

No, it's why we have to have that chat with them so we don't say something jarring in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Do you think do you think this could be used for children? Probably.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Okay. Probably. I've I've not I don't want to. Within their imagination so much. Yeah, I don't think they would need too much hypnosis, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Yeah. Well, that's what I was thinking, because as you both know, I work with children, and I was just thinking that if I could use your technique and and help children, then it would help them to understand their future a lot better, but also to help them to find those solutions, those the way forward, incorporating what I do with them as well. That sounds well, it's possible.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

I do need to say that it's not my technique, it's Anne's technique. Um I'm doing the workshop with her permission, but the real future vision practitioner is her course. Right. So yeah. But yeah, I think you probably could work with kids.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

I would we were just saying, we were just saying, Denise and I, with we were talking to John Scanlon a couple of weeks ago. Oh, yeah. And we were just saying that when you first start off, you don't know many people, do you? But the more that you get to know people and attend these conventions and conferences, the more people you get to know. And I just can't believe how many hypnotherapists that I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

What structs me always is how many have trained in it at some level, or think they've trained in it at some level. A lot of people take weekly courses. And you know, and so people say, Oh, yeah, I used to be a hypnotist.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Yeah, it didn't work. I tried, tried it, yeah. But yeah, I mean, uh as you say, conventions and all of those things, and uh being active on Facebook, that's a big game changer for me. I mean, my my Facebook group has over a thousand members now, only hypnotherapists, and the uh improvement in in my work and career that I've made since I've gone to conferences and and the contacts, the network I have now. If I get a client and I don't know what to do with them, I've always got somebody to refer to. It's just amazing.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Yeah, and that's what we were talking about, weren't we, Denise, when we were talking to John, saying that when we first set off, when we first start off, you're not quite sure of really uh what your niche is going to be, what your direction is gonna be. But it's always nice to have other people who you're close enough to that you can refer to rather than either struggle through, which isn't very good, it's not very professional, or you can say, you know, I'm sorry, I can't help you. And I don't know anybody else who can. Whereas now what you can say is, I'm sorry, I can't help you, but I know somebody who's absolutely fantastic at this sort of thing, I'll refer you on, which is it's exactly it's a blessing for us, isn't it? It is good. I do.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

The one that springs to mind with me is one of my original instructors is a specialist in golf, in golf professionals through the game. So if anybody comes to me asking now about how they want to swing a club, that's where they're going.

unknown 31:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Not my game. Not my game at all. Well, what's nice is you we don't have to be, we don't have to be in order to have them uh go through the experience of doing something. But if you know somebody that's already fantastic in a particular medical, why wouldn't you give them? Of course, of course. And that's the nice thing about hypnosis is that the vast majority of people I've met since becoming hypnosis. Actually, just really, yes, it's nice to have some money coming in, but really it's because we want to help people and because we want those people to have the best health. Because if anybody comes to me who wants to speak in German or in Dutch, they go in there.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

But you know, with what you're saying about health, Denise, I I think that hypnotherapy is going to become more and more important in the next few years. I think so. Services, uh, you know, health services are you're cut down for cost reasons. You've got waiting times, I think in Scotland over two years for some surgeries.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah, it's been like that indeed for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

It's been like that for a long time, really. Wow. It has, it has been a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

It depends, it depends because the money is divided up by district. So some districts can send you to another district. Right. But yeah, that's a whole set of issues, too.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Yeah, because I I needed uh a small operation on my my foot. I had a bone spurn, it was stopping me from wearing shoes, and I lived in you know, not flip-flops, but sort of them kind of sandals, and it was very painful. I couldn't wear anything with a heel or anything like that. And I'm only five foot one, five foot two when I breathe in. So that that height helps me. And I waited over two years for my operation. I had it last September because when I went to the UK hypnosis convention, I still had some kind of strapping still on my foot, and I was wearing these sparkly sandals because I because you're on your feet all day, and it was a case of I couldn't wear anything else. And I've got to go back because it's just taken my toe completely out of line now. So I think there's going to be surgeries. I don't know. I'll have to see what they say. I'll I'll have a good moan at them when I get there, and not next week, we can. But I I work I work predominantly with children, that's what I specialise in. And when I left, I used to work for our National Health Service, and when I left, they were only taking tier four on for the child and adolescent mental health team, and they still are. So in 12 12 years since I left, they've still not moved much. They will tell you completely different, but evidence came to light just a couple of weeks ago, because I I've already said this to Denise, that they're the only service within our national health service that can be discharged without even being triaged.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

And that's scary. That's a children and adolescent mental health service. So I hope you're right saying that it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

And a two-year weight for a child is enormous.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah. Imagine that. I mean, a kid that's eight years old is completely different at eight, at ten. So no, yeah. Well, I mean, while I while I wouldn't say that we can heal bone spurs, you know, not directly anyway, maybe reducing stress and reducing weight, all those things. I don't know. But if you take like all the the simple stuff, more simple stuff, that the stress-related issues, like IBS, off the hands of the NHS.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Uh, or you know, if you if you have a few one of the few things that the NHS stands up and says, You should go to a hypnotist project. Yes, exactly. They pay for it. But they think you should go there first. Or they don't pay for it.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

They have their own, they have their own hypnotherapists that work within the NHS service, but I will tell you from it not from my experience, but from a colleague's experience who became one of those hypnotherapists who works with IBS after all other avenues have been exhausted. So, again, it's the last resort. They are limited to what they can do. So, all our training, our different methodologies, our different approaches, what you would use, I did what you do, Denise, and what I'd use, you're not allowed. You have to do that.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Well, that's that's incredible. You know, I mean, the health cost, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but in the UK they're spending somewhere, I think, five million pounds a year on tinnitus alone. So that could be, you know, because the only the only actual cure that is there, which is not a cure, is a CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, or the best working thing that they have on evidence on an evidence base. The rest is all like might work, might not work. And the most expensive one is the Lanier device, which is a bimodal stimulation device that costs about $4,000 and has to be you know fitted to you. And and most people I've seen who had it, they say it didn't work, didn't do anything. I wasted that money. So if those people, you know, if if you spend 2,000 to 4,000 pounds a year on one person, yeah, I think that's that's what the numbers were, and you can save that. I mean, I don't I don't cost the world, I don't cost a quarter.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

And you don't take that many sessions. CBT is usually around six to twelve.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

So how many of you says five is your average? They work on quality of life, they have some improvements, yeah, but it it's more it's more the habituation and managing and accepting the tinnitus. What I work on is understand why it's there and get try I mean do your best to get rid of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You can't guarantee no verse cat. I can't I can't guarantee anything, and they need to work with me. They need to do self-hypnosis at home, EFT tapping if they're if they're anxious. And they they do need to do their homework. And many of them are so discouraged because they've been through everything, they've been through the entire health service, they've been to every quack out there. Uh, you know, that they've bought all the pills and potions off Amazon and off some some strange Facebook ad, maybe. I don't know. But you are very often the last resort, and we shouldn't be the last resort.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Yeah, we shouldn't, we shouldn't. And we've been saying this for a long time, haven't we, Denise? And I'm a I'm a mad, mad advocate of early intervention, whether it's for children or whether it's to do with adults. And I would rather, I've said this time and time again, that I would rather fix a child with the child's problems than than well, not fixing those problems than help an adult with those child's problems.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

And I do think that as our National Health Service and probably other national health services or other health services need to look at the different options now instead of it just because, in my opinion, our NHS is failing so much on every single level.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

I'd like to point out that the US system doesn't pay for either.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

It's a shame though, isn't it? It's a shame that because the NHS, I used to work for the NHS, and the NHS are evidence-based practitioners, or they they say they're they say they're evidence-based practitioners. The evidence is there. The evidence is there that hypnosis works, and the evidence is there that it works in less time than other conventional therapies. Not saying it works all the time because it doesn't, we all know that.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Yeah, I still see things written by very well-known psychiatrists, for example, who use hypnosis, who are very cross hypnosis, but they tend to be very doctor-centric. Although one of the they they will say things like it helps 10% of the population. No, it doesn't, it's like 99.7. It's it's a massive group of people. The thing is, if you if you give somebody if you only use one session of hypnosis to test hypnosis, and if you know you're just using one modality, there's so many different ways. Yeah, hypnotizing is already.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

And that's that's the issue. I mean, hypnotherapy should be something individualized, and that that's that's precisely the issue with with evidence-based, uh, because you have to have a specific protocol for for, you know, a uniform protocol for every client uh that you test of every participant in your study. And that doesn't work with everyone. And yeah, if you have three sessions, if you have two, if you have one, yeah, it's not going to necessarily do much. And the fun thing is, one of the most biggest researchers of tinnitus says about asked about tinnitus in a QA. Well, actually, we don't research hypnotherapy for tinnitus because hypnotherapy is under-researched. Yes. If you were researching it, maybe it would help. Exactly. So you need you need to build a preliminary evidence base so that they know, okay, this is worth pursuing. And I mean, what's more individual than hypnotherapy and people healing or empowering people to heal themselves?

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Heal themselves, yeah. Maybe maybe we need to go on a massive campaign and um you know and start waving those flags even harder, you know. It's it's it's a shame, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Because we have we have this little tiny podcast. We do. We welcome anybody who isn't a hypnotist, yes, we often know just talking to them, but it it really stuns me when I first qualified as a hypnotist as I moved to Delaware from New Jersey, and there were about four people I could find. I'm I'm now finding a lot more people. I've even found people that charge more than me. Oh, which is reassuring.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Thank you, Astrid. Thank you very, very much. It's um just one more question that I just want to ask you. What holds for the future for Astrid?

SPEAKER_00 41:12

What goals for the future? Oh, don't did you uh are you serious? No, okay. So, first of all, what I would like Just relax, we'll hypnotize you.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

You can feed your cats like yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

No, I I know exactly what I want to be doing, but but personal goals uh leave them aside. I I want to establish or help establish hypnotherapy as one of the first modalities you would go to complementary therapies in in health and in mental health. I think we have, especially also in in corporate environments, that they have nothing to lose by having, for example, their employees helped with hypnotherapy and coaching rather than just giving them massages, you know, because lots of lots of companies do wellness packages and that's a massage once a week. Wouldn't hypnotherapy be so much better depending on their issues? And you would lose so much less working time and productivity around your uh with your employees. That's one one field, but also getting it more established. However, what I the problem I see there is that we have the different crowds of hypnotherapists and anything from Ericksonian to super spiritual and the ones who promise they can cure they could cure cancer in one session, which is yeah, yeah, those things as an ex-doctor, rather nervous. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So what what I just heard the other day was from a friend, she said, if you promise that you are the one who can cure somebody's illness, you are taking away their power to heal themselves, if they start believing that. I thought that was quite a smart quote.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

Yeah, well, I'll if you need an assistant in in waving that flag and getting uh all that evidence. Yeah, where we are.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

I'll do I'll do my best.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

I'm gonna contact you offline because I have a few things I want to propose to you, but they don't have to go on paper. There we go. Thank you so much for listening to me.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Thank you guys for having me. Oh no, thank you. And I shall see you November at London.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Oh yes, at the London Hypnosis Conference.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Yes, you're gonna have to come over to the trouble is can I get back in?

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Anyway, I'll be speaking on quantum or quackery just to get a plug-in. Oh, we discuss nice.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

It is very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

It is. You need to come. We we're out of time, I think.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

So I'll be there.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

It was great meeting you, Astrid. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Nice meeting you too. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye-bye. We hope you've enjoyed listening. Please remember this podcast is designed to give you an insight into therapeutic hypnosis and it's for educational purposes only. So remember, consult with your own healthcare professional if you think something you've heard may apply to you or a loved one.