Why FSExpo Feels Like A Reunion

We get hyped for Flight Sim Expo in St. Paul by talking about the gear, the announcements, and the part nobody can replicate online: meeting our people face to face. We also dig into how flight simulation supports real-world aviation training, where AI ATC fits today, and what still needs to change for the wider industry to take simmers seriously.
• why Flight Sim Expo feels like a yearly family reunion for a niche hobby
• what attendees actually get from the exhibit hall, speakers, tours, and meetups
• how FS Expo picks a city, from airports and hotels to internet and power costs
• the shrinking gap between flight sim procedures and real-world aviation workflows
• why VATSIM, PilotEdge, and LiveATC practice can improve radio confidence
• the announcements we’re watching, from airliners to hardware updates
• the freeware versus payware reality for long-term development and support

All the details on travel airfare discounts on our website flightsomeexpo.com people can get their tickets online in advance people can get their tickets at the door on the day of

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Roll Call

SPEAKER_05 0:00

From the laboratory, welcome to the Close Traffic Podcast, an aviation and flight simulation show.

SPEAKER_04 0:07

Welcome aboard.

SPEAKER_06 0:42

Man, look at the scene of folks we have on today. This is this is definitely a first or a first in a very long time. Uh welcome back to CTP. We've got a packed agenda, a really great show lined up for you all. But first and foremost, and as always, Johnny, Charlie, say hello to the people. Hello, people. Howdy! So enthusiastic. Hopefully, we'll have a better show than that. Hello. Listen, we've got plenty of folks on here to keep this thing running today. We're gonna make our our our ways around the room. But before we get started, this is our, I think, our third annual closed traffic podcast FS Expo preview. So typically what we do here is grab a bunch of content creators and enthusiasts together, especially those that are gonna be attending Expo to really get us hype and really think about some of the great things that we're going to encounter as the weekend approaches. But without further ado, we'll make our rounds around the room. Leo, we'll start with you, man. Leo, say hello to the people. You are a returning guest of Cloakhopper Podcast. So most folks know you, but uh for the people that are new here, introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_07 1:47

Hey, I gotta go first. Well, like Johnny said, like Johnny said, hello, people.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

What's going on, guys? I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_07 1:58

Right, yeah, just me, Simple Leo 686, content creator on YouTube. You know, pumped to get this FS Expo thing started this week. I don't know about you guys, but I'm ready.

SPEAKER_06 2:08

Some some good to have you, man. Good to have you back. Mustafa, I think first time on Closed Shop Podcast. So certainly not new to the industry at all. Introduce yourself to the people.

SPEAKER_05 2:19

Yeah, my name is uh Mustafa. I've been into Flight Sim since I was in junior high, and I'm 40. I turned 43 yesterday. So been doing it for a while. Yeah, thanks. So yeah, and I've been involved with uh FS Expo in one way or another at all of them since they started in Las Vegas back in what is it 2018, I think it was, and been loving it, and so just can't wait for uh taking off this weekend and and heading over. So yeah, a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_06 2:44

Awesome, awesome, happy belated birthday, by the way. Happy belated birthday.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Happy belated birthday.

SPEAKER_06 2:51

Not Matt, what's up, man? Returning guests of Close Shop Podcast. How you doing?

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Oh man, I have to uh say the uh hello people. Great. Yeah, it's hard to top after we got Leo Stix86, which has one of the coolest names, and Mustafa here not Matt started to sound kind of lame. I've been in the flights in world for a very long time. I don't know. FS 2004, FS 2000 probably, and yeah, I just uh I I'm actually really hurt that I cannot attend FS Expo this year because as I've told Evan probably a few times in a couple crying calls that it's just it's just astronomical for me to fly out there, but I'm really pumped to see all the photos, I'm really pumped to see all the cool uh product releases and announcements, and it's just it's it's it's a travesty to miss, so don't miss it.

SPEAKER_06 3:48

Awesome, awesome. We appreciate you, Matt, for I know it's pretty late uh out there European time, so appreciate you you coming on and spending some time with us. And of course, last but not least, Mr. Evan. How are you, man? Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_07 4:05

Hello, people. Hello, people for Evan. Hello, people.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Was that exactly when I was supposed to be introduced? The whole way. So obviously. I'm at a hotel. I'm actually in St. Paul. I got here today, and I'm at the hotel, and I'm like, I don't know if the internet is gonna work out well enough. The whole time you're doing intros, it's like glitching in and out. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna quickly switch to my hotspot and hope that works better. Of course, the moment that I switch to the hotspot is when you come to me. So that exactly.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Hey, that's the glitch for the week, man. Right there. That's it. You're good to go.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Hopefully the internet works well enough. Hopefully, I can be here for the whole time. I don't know if I should feel bad that this is the third annual one of these and it's the first time I've been invited to it. So what to make of that?

SPEAKER_06 4:59

You were on the you were on the very first one.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

What was I? Okay. Yeah, you were. So wasn't we last year? Did I not do very well the first time?

SPEAKER_06 5:05

You and you and Phil were there. I think you were busy last year.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Okay, fair enough. Anyway, I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having us. This is what one of the three hotels will look like if you're staying at the Hyatt Place. This is a sense as to what you can expect. And I'm here all week, and we'll do my best to make sure the internet lasts and chat with you guys and give you a little bit more of an idea of what to expect this week.

SPEAKER_06 5:26

Awesome, awesome. Well, we appreciate you making the time, Evan. I know you've got a lot going on. So listen, we are here, and shout out to everyone joining us on YouTube, Facebook, wherever you're you're you're you're making your rounds from. We appreciate you guys spending some time with us this evening, this afternoon, this morning, wherever you may be. We've got a packed expo this year.

What Everyone Wants From Expo

SPEAKER_06 5:45

I think we say that every year, but every year it continues to grow and get even more exciting. Ton of exhibitors, ton of sponsors, ton tons of activities. I guess I'd like to go around a room to see what are you guys most excited for? Leo, since we started with you last time, we won't start with you. We'll we'll we'll go to we'll go to Mustafa. What are you most excited for?

SPEAKER_05 6:07

So for me, and I've I've told this story on my stream a number of times, but when I first ever went to one of these, it was actually Flight Simcon before it became Flight Sim Expo. And it was the looking forward to you know just going to some kind of a Flight Sim experience with other people and being able to see hardware and and software and developers and just that kind of a cool thing. And it's still that is awesome. That that's that's way cool. But for me, what it's become is Flight Sim Expo is like the best family reunion you could ever ask for because it's all of the people that share our our love of aviation, our love of flight sim. We all speak that same language that you know most of our friends locally don't necessarily, you know, you flight sim, what is that? So it's that online friends that you don't see but once a year, and so the hardware is super cool, the the speakers are awesome, the little actual events are cool, but for me, the best thing is getting to see all my friends and all the people and meet new friends, and it's just it's amazing. I I just I'm on cloud nine the entire time.

SPEAKER_06 7:08

Nice, nice. I think that for for for me too, it's funny. I think that's the the once a year that Johnny, Charlie, and I get to see each other. Yeah, exactly. So uh even as the podcast partners, that's the time we're looking forward to. Leo, how about you, man?

SPEAKER_07 7:25

So, you know, I I will pick it back off of what Mustafa said. I've been to other events, especially like the cons for you know the anime and stuff like that. My lady is into that type of stuff, but we're different kind of geeks, right? You know, not sit here and and fly a virtual plane real time, might I add, across the world and around the world. And I think that it's an awesome opportunity for people to come together and you know create unbreakable bonds. And I know that's especially true, true for me in my community. Um, these guys are some of the you know best friends that I've ever made. And, you know, even though some of them live right here in my home state, it's still awesome. We can all just jump on a plane and and go to an event where we all speak the same language. So yeah, I agree with uh Mustafa on that.

SPEAKER_06 8:21

Nice. Matt, I know you're not gonna be there this time around, but you've obviously attended many expos in the past. What do you typically look forward to when you do attend?

SPEAKER_02 8:34

First, I want to touch on the whole family reunion thing because I think that that really hits home. Any kind of gathering like this is just it's like a family reunion. It's even better because you don't have a drunk uncle starting a fight with the other uncle stuff.

SPEAKER_05 8:48

Two tone Murphy will be there, so no.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Alright, hide the beer, hide the whiskey, hide whatever that means. Like we don't need drunk uncle, Two Tone Murphy uh attacking, I don't know, someone else there. But yeah, it's it's really it's the it's just seeing all the cool stuff firsthand, right? Like reading it online is fun and all, but like when you're there and you're like, whoa, I didn't know that was a thing. Or oh, when did this happen? It's that's like really other than the the reunion, and you know, you're kind of like you're just surrounded by people that all like the same thing as you, which is kind of hard in this day and age, I feel like, when you go out and about. You don't get to usually get surrounded by people who are also as nerdy as you with airplanes and helicopters and fake air traffic control. So I don't know. That's that's my thing right there.

SPEAKER_06 9:38

Awesome, awesome. Evan, you uh you obviously have the uh privilege, depending on how you look at it, of looking at this from another angle, obviously, right? I can't imagine how much of it you actually get to enjoy, but what do you what do you look forward to the most? Besides the last day, what do you look forward to the most of these explosions?

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Paul, you know, I've been here three times now. It's my third time here. Once to check out the venue in the first place, once with FS Elite, and we did that video back in April. And just seeing Callum and Greg's reactions to a place they'd never been to before, and I assume a lot of attendees haven't been to before. I didn't even heard of St. Paul. Like I knew Minneapolis was a place, but I was like, oh yeah, the airport is MSP. I wonder what the SP stands for. I'm finding that out. So I'm really curious to see what people think. A new venue for us, a new city, a place to explore, and then just seeing what people think when all the stuff comes together, the different add-ons that we have, the tours that we get to do, all the new stuff in the exhibit hall this year. It's always a really cool kind of learning experience for us as we watch attendees go through this experience that we work on designing for them over the course of like 18 to 24 months. So I'm always the most excited just to see what people actually think of all this stuff we put together.

SPEAKER_06 10:54

Awesome. Yeah, again, I know it's uh a ton of hard work by you and the team. We appreciate you all and and and thank you guys every year for going through the the painstaking logistics of putting on something like this for everyone to come and enjoy from all over the world. It doesn't go unnoticed, so we appreciate you guys. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 11:12

I I guess I could ask Johnny, what are you looking forward to, man?

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Well, you know, Rob, since I mean, um, I'll think about Rob. But Mike, since you uh since you pride me. Man, truth be told. I love being able to meet people who speak my my language. I can't tell you how many times you'll be, you know, somewhere or whatever, and you know, something or aircraft to fly over, it's like, oh yes, the 737-800 or whatever, and you know, people are like, you know, and to further compound all that, you know, within an already niche, you know, interest or hobby, which is aviation, you know, you you drill down and flight simulation is even more niche. And so even within my own household, I speak a completely different way. Yes, you know, and it's like, okay, you go, you know, you go, you're going out or whatever, and you know, thankfully, you know, shout to the, you know, to the missus for, you know, dealing with my shenanigans. But, you know, being able to take a break, meet a bunch of like-minded people, and create relationships that you know that last well beyond the event. I I got contacts in my phone to this day, people I keep up with to this day that I met at Expo. So I'm looking forward to creating new memories. Hopefully, all of them are good. And, you know, I've been at work for several companies, one on the Egan way back when, and a couple of other St. Paul's. So, you know, pretty familiar with the area, and I know there's some pretty interesting, you know, activity as it relates to the libations there. So camaraderie and the breaking of bread. So um, and on top of all that, the hardware is gonna be nuts. I know the hardware is gonna be like none other and being able to meet, you know, meet the people who make the things, you know, shake hands with them, build relationships off that. I mean, there's there's just there's nowhere else to do it. Nowhere else to do it. So for sure. But yeah, those are I think those are the two aspects I'm looking forward to the most.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Awesome. What about you, Charlie? Man, kind of piggyback off everybody else. The hardware for sure. I'm a hardware geek. I love looking at that stuff, but the camaraderie, meeting the folks you know you only get to see on streams, and you know, just making new friends and just being in that atmosphere. It's special, man. It really is for geeks like us. It is a special time. Most people don't understand it. You know what I mean? They'll never understand Charlie. No, no, try to keep Johnny out of trouble. That's gonna be the key.

SPEAKER_06 14:11

That's what she's looking forward to. The most key version.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Yeah, I had to call Sis. Hey, come get your boy.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

It's like the fun and the challenges. You see, how much trouble can he get into before you look at the beam? And you're like making notes. You're like, ah, okay, that was one too many libations as someone tell you. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Never had to kick anybody out of the show before. So I would love it if that's not to do that. We will try our only ask. If you want to do whatever you want at the bar, just put the show at your spot.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

These nine guys help sponsored, but we had to kick them out.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

I'm sorry, they brought in a karaoke machine. I couldn't help myself.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Change my notes about how media partners are getting in. You're going through security now. It's gonna be like the part of the airport where you're randomly selected for extra screen calls. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Mike Charlie Hodger C T B shirts, man. That's right. We're all coming in as janitors.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

I'm gonna shave my beard so nobody knows me.

SPEAKER_06 15:27

Man, you guys are hilarious. Evan, quick point. Y'all acting up already. Already, man. We still have four days

How FS Expo Cities Get Picked

SPEAKER_06 15:33

to go. I I know we've touched on this in the past, but could you uh you walk us through like how you guys select the cities for expo? What's the the criteria?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah, it's a process for sure. Uh it starts about a year in advance of so it's I guess two years in advance of the show. So we we've done that for 2027 already. Starts kind of with a broad look at what do we think could work. A lot of those suggestions, including this year's, come from attendees. So somebody will randomly email me and say, what do you think about this place? And many of the places we've looked at and we'll say, well, that doesn't work because of this or whatever. A lot of the things will be it's easy to get to. Will people want to go there? Does the venue have the internet, the electricity, the services that we need at a price that we can afford? Are there hotels nearby? Is the airport going to be serviceable for people coming from around the world? All those kinds of basic factors. And then we'll narrow that down to five, six, seven, something like that, kind of venues that could work. And then if I haven't been there before myself and some of the others of the team will actually go do site visits. So I was here in probably February a couple of years ago and looked at all these different hotels, including some that we don't have on our actual official list because we decided that they weren't good enough or the pricing was wrong or whatever it may be. Look at the venue, talk to the people here, and then we go through this really, really detailed effort of like actually building out a budget basically for three or four different cities. And it's a little bit on our side, but it's a lot on the attendee and the developer side. So when you get there, can you afford a bottle of water? Can you, you know, afford the hotel stay? Is it gonna be a four-hour trip from the airport because of traffic? Those are the kinds of questions that we look at from the attendee perspective. And then from the exhibitors, like, what is internet cost? What does electricity cost? What's the booth gonna be like? Can you get your team there? And is that going to be reasonable? And then we try to put that all together into a thing that we think can work, and then we have some negotiations with our venues, and a lot of the time we'll get down to three or four different venues as we did in the 2027 event, and it's like, okay, so this one's giving us this. Can you guys give us this? And they're like, oh, maybe we could do that, maybe we can't. And it really is just negotiation. And I try not to do it in a way that's like super difficult. I'm a probably not a very good poker player and not a very good negotiator. So I just tell people, I'm like, listen, this is what I need. Like, our exhibitors can't pay a thousand dollars for internet a day. That's not like I know other shows can do that. That's not us. If you're not a venue that, you know, can give us a good price on internet, let's just stop talking because there's no point. I can't, you know, ask a flight simulation developer to pay a thousand bucks per day for internet. That's crazy. Whereas lots of other shows can do that. So it's really just like that back and forth. It starts probably, like I said, about two years in advance of the show. If we are doing things in our normal timeline in like March, April, May, we would have a signature for a venue for the next year. And that's where we are for 2026 and a seven, and of course, I'll announce that at the show.

SPEAKER_06 18:19

Right, right. That's awesome, man. A lot of people don't realize how much goes into it. I know again, from what I do for work, I I see it all the time, but it's it's not known or visible to to many folks that just come and attend. So, again, like we said at the beginning, appreciate what you

Flight Sim As Real Training

SPEAKER_06 18:36

guys do. What I've loved with FS Expo throughout the years, incrementally, there continues to be, and we keep talking about flight sim, but incrementally there continues to be a tie between flight simming and real world aviation. Uh, and it it grows more and more every year with you know, pilots coming to speak, uh, you've got certain airlines there, uh, and not in any particular order. You guys feel free to chime in, but I because I know we have some some actual pilots in this group. What aspects of tying flight simulation to real world aviation have you guys seen and enjoyed with FX Expo over the last couple of years? So let me be like class and start calling on folks.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Oh no, just I didn't want to talk over one. I think I think I talked about this last time. Like I I'm a private pilot, I'm not as decorated as some that may be here, but you know, one of the interesting conversations that I've had with the US Coast Guard is like how mind blowing it was to them, how many people are into this kind of hobby, and even like the niche that I'm working in, which is like the mission generation and building and basically telling a story, right? They're they were blown away with like just how many people I have in the beta program alone with very little marketing. And like, yeah, it it triggers something, it triggers kids to be like, hey, I want to do this, like I'm having fun doing this for fake. I want to do this for real. It triggers adults that are like, hey, I have fun doing this for fake, I want to do this for real. I think there's definitely and like please someone that's more qualified as a pilot, I feel like a baby pilot, speak up here, but like yeah, the the the physics that you feel on your yoke or joystick may not be real, but if you run the procedures right, it really helps your muscle memory, especially for IFR stuff. Yep, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

The other day in real work where we're our simulators that we use to train pilots to fly the CRJ, the Embraer, and even bigger planes, they don't replicate the feel of the airplane either. And so when we get candidates that come out of the simulator, their first landings in the airplane are not good. And I as you agree with them like literally holding on with them because they've never felt it before. Like this simulators are just not good at replicating actual forces on real airplanes. That's not what they're for. And the amount of times that I try to explain that to different flight schools and different people from around real-world aviation, there's a lot of pilots out there, especially sort of the older crowd who maybe didn't grow up with this technology, and that's their reaction is they're like, well, I tried this simulator once, but it didn't feel like the plane, so I gave up. And I'm like, that A, that's not the point, and B, like it was probably one from like the 19 you know 90s, and like the hardware has changed since then. Have you tried something recently? And they're like, no, you know, right? So it's like getting them to uh at least give this a shot is a big thing, and that's where an event like this, of course, is like so relevant because they can just come and try all these different kinds of flight simulators and be like, okay, actually this is different than the one I tried in the FBO in 1994, and it turns out they've changed great, right? Good, progress.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

No, absolutely. Yeah, no, but I'm gonna tell you, like, you know, of course it's 20 years ago, but going to a level D, uh level D SOB sim, and then, you know, even going into, you know, that shouldn't shoot an approach and you know the real thing is like completely different. I mean, I think, you know, you you use the word level D and it's like, oh my gosh, you know, it's probably the latest, uh uh uh no, no. Visual fidelity is like and feel is an an afterthought, you know. It to me, it seems like when they designed and built some of these things, and you know, getting into, you know, and so when you experience it, you know, of course, you know, we're using our sensory organs, right? You know, we're we're you know, we're looking at it, you know, you you know, there's you that see your pants, Phil, which you, you know, which you get to an extent in uh in a level D. But I think in this day and age, we are at an era of flight simulation that I never envisioned, you know, when I first started my journey. So I couldn't imagine having this resource now going through, you know, going to type training or something like that, you know, let alone something that we have a high fidelity rendition of, like, you know, a 737 or this 650, you know, or or any other aircraft. No, I'm not.

unknown 23:05

I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

I'm gonna die on that, die on that hill, sir. But but uh yeah, I mean, it's that the the bridge, the gap between real world aviation and flight simulation now in my in my mind is just like completely blurred now. I can't tell you guys how many times, you know, I've um, you know, you'll be at the you'll be at the airport or something, and you know, Microsoft Flight Simulator comes up in the conversation or X-Plane comes up in the conversation, even DCS comes up in the conversation. It's not so much, you know, it's not so much of a taboo topic to discuss in the crew room anymore. You know, I remember those old heads back in the day, you know, used to work a trip with, yeah, like I remember like, you know, like because I I started back in my FS98. So heaven forbid, like, man, you might get kicked out if you brought up like flight sim or something like that. Like, what? So you're trying to bring that, you know. You know, it was all I don't know, though. I'm thinking of like top hats and teacups, like when you're we're trying to have this have these discussions, but it's just it's it's it it never ceases to amaze me, you know. Everything every release, you know, we of course you guys know we had two really big releases as it relates to uh corporate aviation just just hit the market. And I mean, you know, I just never, you know, I'm I guess I don't know. I g and you know, we were kind of talking about age earlier, and uh, you know, I just hit the big 4-0 last year, so you know, I just you know, my old man, you know, my old man moments. But but you know, sometimes I I can't help but wonder, you know, five years from now, you know, ten years from now, what will we be looking at today? And you know, Expo, you know, being able to, you know, hopefully, you know, a lot of you guys who are listening are able to make it, but you know, being able to see some of these products that you know haven't even hit the market yet, you know, and and nine times out of ten, you're probably gonna see some you know real-world aviators there as well. So, but yeah, not to kind of go off in the weeds, but you guys know CTP and the weeds just tends tends to be bedfellow here, and but but yeah, I like I don't even know, I don't even know where I know we're talking about.

SPEAKER_06 25:19

That's why that's why that's why I'm moderate. It's funny. We're we're talking about the bridge between.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

It was just like I just turned 40, and uh he's like, ah, grandpa, go to bed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

You know, yeah, and then I was like, man, wow, it's like almost six here, so it's like you know my bedtime. But who are you? Don't call here anymore.

SPEAKER_06 25:46

It's all right, it's all right, Johnny. It's all right, man. We know you're very passionate about this subject. Leo, what about you, man?

SPEAKER_07 25:52

I know you were I think I think uh like Matt said, I'm a low hour pilot in training, I'll say. I think that we're in the age of how can I word this? We're in the age of I'll just say the millennial, and I'll say the millennial is that's my generation. I too am about to be 40 in six months. But I think good luck. I think I think that we're we're to uh a phase in both real-world aviation and and flight simming that these two can coexist in the same room. These young kids that are coming up right now are absolutely flying through their flight, their real-world flight training. And it's simply because they flight sim. Like Johnny said, it may not give you the feel, it may not give you, you know, the lateral Gs, the positive G's, the negative Gs, but it gives you procedure, it gives you CRM, it gives you a lot of different you know things that will help you in the real world. And I think that this is where our worlds meet as far as simming and real world aviation. After all, we're we're we're modeling the real world, right? We're simulating the real world. So why wouldn't they be able to coexist? Yeah, I just think that we're an awesome time just as a consumer, as a real world pilot, as a flight simmer, as a developer, and as just a straight-up consumer that enjoys the hobby. And I think it's no better time to get into it than to come into an event like Flight Sim Expo. For sure, man.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Yeah. Like, because that that's it for me is you know, everyone has said this, which is it used to be taboo, right? I remember my flight instructor back in the day said he knew that I was a flight sim nerd. He said, Don't you dare tell the DP that you like Flight Sim. Yes, sir. And I took uh little hiatus, and you know, I came back as an adult, and I I went for my check ride, and I said, Nah, screw it, I'm gonna tell her. And this woman, and I I kid you not, this woman was an accomplished pilot. Like, she was a captain on the 777, she was typerated 7-6, 7-5, 7-3, and I was sitting there like, ah, I should not have looked you up. I mean, I went in there with no confidence. I was like, Yeah, I'm I can fly, I'm a flight simmer. And as the words left out of me, I didn't know what to expect, but her face was like, Yeah, okay. Like, she let it go, and then we got up there, and she's like, Are you sure you're not like taking any IFR class or something? Well, we were doing the the foggles, and I'm like, no, I just know how to like put the pointer where it needs to go and ignore everything else. I've been doing that for a while, so ignoring the G's and everything, they don't exist.

SPEAKER_06 28:39

Yeah, it's uh it's yep.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

I was gonna say we're not we're not there yet, though. And I mean, like, I think all those things are true, and obviously I agree with them as a show and as an industry. Not everyone has come across around to that mentality yet, unfortunately. And like what Johnny said about the airlines, I think that's true. But like, has the FAA figured that out when it comes to air traffic hiring? I don't think so. And you can say that about you know ANSPs around the world. And have the airlines figured that out? No, because none of them are on our show. Not right. There's lots of entities who we approach as a show, and we're like, listen, this is the next generation of pilots. Like, y'all need to come to this thing and start paying attention to it and start getting local kids who are in this area who you've met at a career fair to come to Flight Sim Expo. And that kind of messaging doesn't resonate yet. So I think we've got more work to do. Like the tech is finally there, and I people are finally realizing it, and yeah, it's not a taboo, so we've made a lot of progress, but I don't think we're there yet, and it's an area that we as a show realize that we need to put some more effort and focus into. We have some great support this year and like finally had a flight school that shows is going to show up allegedly uh next weekend, at least we think so. But like I reached out to them for weeks and sent emails for a long time, and it was not until one of our attendees who lives in Europe and reached out to them directly and was like, Listen, people, I want to book some time with you. Like, I want to give you some money. Will you please take my money? And they were finally like, okay, I guess maybe this is for real. And then like the next day they reached out and they're like, Okay, we'll talk about exhibiting. Like, it's just like why did they not figure that out until they had to have one person reach out to them and prove my point? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Yeah, it's crazy. I think it's oh I'm sorry, I mean to cut you off, Matt. No, go for it. No, no, I was just gonna say, I I think it's generational as well. And I I I just want to give a shout out to a sobo because they're they've they've been able to bring this platform to a completely different market and expose a completely new generation of we're gonna call them future aviators, right? And with that, as you know, I'm thinking of my kid, you know, 16 years old, you know, he's being exposed to a Microsoft flight simulator, you know, goes out there, you know, hopefully goes, gets flight training, you know, get those, get gets those tickets. You know, you have a new generation of flight simulator flight simmer. And eventually, Evan, and my I hope and pray at some point our hobby that we hold dear will eventually become more accepted as the older generation begins to make their way out, retire or whatnot. And you know, we you know, we start to, you know, in my mind, I think the shift is inevitable.

SPEAKER_07 31:17

Um it will, Johnny. It will, you know, it will. You know why I say that? It will, it will because I I hate to kind of say it like this in a in a kind of dark humorous way, but the old people can't live forever. We're the next in line, and so we are carrying in that forward. It has no it has no other option but to to continue and be accepted. We're the ones that's gonna accept it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 31:43

That means as a sh as a show, though, and that means as a you know, even group of us, like it's incumbent upon us, and I think this is where Microsoft also is also doing a great job. We have to find the kids because if we don't replace them and we don't get new people into our hobby, we will also have the same problem, right? You look at apps like the beginning years, but even now, we it's an older show, like it it does punch above its weight in terms of demographics, and that makes sense. You know, your your kids are gone or your kids are are out of the house, you've got time, you've got money, it's an easy hobby that you can do indoors and require a whole lot of athletic activity. Like it makes sense that it's a great thing for somebody to do when maybe they can't fly anymore, but this is still their connection for aviation. So I'm not knocking that in any way, but I am saying, like, how do I get the you know, the person like you, Leo, who's in flight training, right? How do I find you and get you to come to this show? Or if you're someone who lives in Minnesota and you're 15 and you're interested maybe in some kind of a career in aviation, how do I find you? Because I want you to come to this show and experience this and get into our world, but you're a hard person to find for me.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I think like two things. One, I was just having this conversation. I I wish a little bit of that sim hours would count to real life. Like if you got, I don't know, a quarter or a fifth, that'd be so cool. But uh onto a real subject because I think a lot of people miss the trickle-down economic factor here, which is take a simmer who's a hardcore simmer and loves simming. They get in an airplane, they get immediately motion sick, they say, This is not for me, but then they realize that there's other ways to be around airplanes that you don't have to fly them. Maybe they don't want to fly, maybe they want to be a flight attendant, maybe they want to be uh baggage handling, maybe they want to move up in the operations world and logistics. Like there's so many other ways, and I I've seen people do that on my time, you know, through Batsim or Flight SIM or whatever it may be, where they you know they did go for they did swing big and they went through like being a pilot, and they're like, you know what, I flew a plane and I hated it. I don't want to do that ever again. And then you know, now they're like flight scheduling ops at a at a big uh legacy carrier or something. So and the the other point I want to hit on is Evan, you are absolutely correct. Like there's still a hard stigma, but compared to what it used to be, I feel like you everyone, you we can Sobo explain, like just everybody all you guys are working together without even knowing it or trying to trying to do it intentionally. It's it's reduced that stigma a lot. You can actually talk about it, and before, I I don't know, I don't know about you guys' experiences, but before if I would talk about this, it would be an immediate laughter. And now it's a chuckle and like, wait, I'm kind of intrigued, tell me more. Because I see these videos of these high fidelity graphics, they don't what they don't know what they're missing is they don't know that there's this whole like sub-layer of extra stuff that goes along with it, which is like the high fidelity airplanes or the high fidelity sceneries that take you out of that blocky, I don't know, FSX default auto gen scenery and put you into the real, for example, Atlanta. It's just it's I think that stigma has really gone down, and I'm you know, as a simmer myself, first and foremost, I'm grateful that for everything that y'all have done. I mean, podcasts like this, developers, uh, a sobo for bringing it to console, finding a whole new demographic of people. It may not run awesome compared to, I don't know, a 5090 and you know, uh i 15,750.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

Two kidneys. Yeah, at least you get some in the door, and then they're like, you know what?

SPEAKER_02 35:08

I I I want to get off the console because I want I want the full experience. Let me go to PC. And you know, yeah, it's just it's um it flights him has now become a gateway hobby. I call it a gateway hobby.

SPEAKER_06 35:19

No, it's it's it's interesting that you you mentioned you know moving up in tech ops and the fact that you know you can simulate real-world crew operations, etc. In fact, I think it's Friday. You've got the if I'm not mistaken, Evan, the Tech Ops tour, as well as uh Real World Procedures, real rural airliner procedures conversation. So again, continuing to bridge that gap between, you know, this is just flight simming and it's a hobby, and a lot of people like to call it a game, bridging the gap between that and real world aviation, you know, it's it's great to see that despite some of the hurdles and challenges that you guys encounter, there's a willingness to continue to pursue it and drive it forward. Mustafa, anything on your mind, man, with this topic?

SPEAKER_05 36:02

So I'm I'm probably I may be the only one here that doesn't actually have isn't actually a real world pilot. Although I did do flight training back in college, so I was working toward it, and actually 9-11 is part of what changed that landscape for me. Combination of, you know, you know, not kind of running out of money, and then the whole industry changed overnight. You know, it became it went from super accessible to who are you, keep out. And that just, you know, as a young person, that just kind of really like you know, caused me to stand off a little bit. So anyway, so my career took a different path. But I I did flight training and the solo cross countries and the whole thing, just basically everything just shy of the the the PPL. And back then, that was for me Microsoft Flight Sim 98 and and going in right there. So even with that, like we were you know making fun of it, very rudimentary compared to what we have now. Um, but even that was such a bridge to understanding the basics because when you're doing your initial flight training, it is that's all the basics. And so we didn't have, I mean, we didn't have the the FMS simulations and stuff and the things you know, it we were still if you were flying an airliner in '98, you were doing VOR to VOR, the map sucked. So I had a like a US map on my wall that I was like trying to, I was like trying to draw out like air-to-fairing lines to try and figure out, and still it wasn't working very well. But man, I learned VORs the hard way, and so you know, you cut to now where that we are in the sim, and the fact that the system depth is so immense. If you want to take it there, you you know, some of these airliner simulations, the the failures that you can do, the system depth that you can do, and and there's still, I mean, and there's still people that just want to be, you know, the whole chill the magenta line, you know, I just want to push the button and go autopilot from 400 feet to auto land on the brand. You know, it's flight sim, you do you. But if you want to go deep in the weeds, you can, and you can really learn this stuff. And I found that's where I've really, really enjoyed that's kind of my niche, is I'm a systems guy. I just geek out on that like crazy, and I'm finding all these little like back end, and when something like breaks in the sim or something fails in the airplane, uh where a lot of people would go, Oh, I guess that's the end of my flight. I'm like, uh-uh, challenge accepted. How are we getting this thing to how are we doing this anyway without cheating and pulling up the GPS that I don't technically have access to? So, anyway, so all that to say is you're right, the the industry has a long way to come and still has a lot to embrace because if they do, and if people do this, you're right. They're they're making leaps and bounds in their training because they're so far ahead mentally, as long as they're not learning you know bad habits. Obviously, that's always the thing with self-simming. You want to be careful that you're not picking up and learning things that you shouldn't be learning, and then obviously there's the feel of it. You're never gonna get that until you step into a real plane. But if you can understand the way the plane works and all the systems, then you're getting in the plane and you're not having to learn, oh, what do all these dials do? You're just having to learn, hey, what does this translate to feel now? You're leaps ahead of everybody else.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah, saving money. That's so true.

SPEAKER_06 39:17

Saving

Radio Skills And Saving Money

SPEAKER_06 39:18

money. And speaking of saving money, there's one thing we haven't really touched on yet, but like forget the plane aspect of it for a moment. Even Fat Sim and Pilot Edge and IVA.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Oh man.

SPEAKER_06 39:29

You know how many people struggle with radio work when they go for their their private, and you know, you can go in and that not be an issue at all. I think is it's it's pretty phenomenal. And there again, there is ways to help. Yep, same here, man. I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 39:44

I don't know, Mike. My first time coming out of VKX, bro, having to talk to Potomac approaching in the real world, I was scared crapless, bro.

SPEAKER_06 39:51

Oh, I didn't say you wouldn't be scared.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Uh Potomac, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:55

I didn't say you wouldn't be scared, but there's definitely a level of familiarity that you wouldn't have otherwise. And I think that's that that that goes a long way for sure.

SPEAKER_05 40:05

Yeah, imagine talking to Potomac without any of that, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

November three, stupid. Just sitting there holding the key button, like just holding it.

SPEAKER_04 40:17

Hold it down, everyone has out. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Let off.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

We literally did this study. Uh, this was a couple of years ago, but we did this. We asked people if they were pilots, we asked them if they used flight sim or not, and we compared how many hours did it take you to get your PPL if you were a flight simmer and if you weren't a flight simmer. And we found it was about an average of five and a half hours that you saved. That was just like a direct comparison, people who didn't didn't, if they're using flight sim. So that's easily a thousand dollars more now in today's fuel prices and highs and all that stuff, right? And that was a couple of years ago with a lot of people who got their private pilots too, way, way back when in the 80s and 70s, when you couldn't even use flight sim for part of your training. So maybe it's worth redoing that study. But like this is absolutely a real thing. And the Vatsim effect or the pilot edge effect, that's absolutely a real thing. I give that advice to people that I train at the airlines right now. We get people who come in and they've only ever flown in maybe northern Canada where they don't have air traffic control. Yes, you can literally fly IFR without talking to ATC, that's Canada for you. Or they've come in from having only been in a flight school, they've worked at untowered airports. The last time they talked to a controller was like four years ago. So I will give that advice to people. If they're on the Zim world, they can go on VATs. If they're not, they just tell them, hey, listen to Live ATC, and I'll say, and you're in this layover that we have, like, I want you to sit there and listen to live ATC and read back the instructions because that's what you need to practice. Like that part, because you can do that in the hotel. Let's not worry about you know trying to talk to ATC when we're also trying to fly the plane. Let's get that part done. So anyone who comes in with this flight's in the background, with the background on feeling comfortable talking to ATC, such a huge advantage.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

I just imagine Evan putting some uh some poor FO in the core and be like, you're gonna listen to live ATT and then come to the city. You're gonna roll things.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Yeah, and I'm like, and like I'm like, read it back. Read it back, read it back. That's it's laugh, but it's true, it's a thing that people struggle with. Like it's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

I would turn away, just laughs them on the hands back in the corner.

SPEAKER_05 42:17

Oh, yeah. And it's and it's even more of an issue nowadays with the the youth that are coming up now that don't talk to anybody. Anybody all on their phone texting, you know, we're sitting there, people texting each other next to it next to each other. It's like, dude, just have a conversation. Would you play? But that's so it's it's only it's always been an issue. It's only gonna get worse.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Communicating. That's where C D D L C comes in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't talk to my controller. I'm crashing out now.

SPEAKER_05 42:44

I'm crashing out.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

I'm not talking, I'm not talking to controllers over here. Guys on the radio, text me.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Text me that number you want me to call.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

That again is where Vatsum has had that for years because years ago, before CPDLC, I'd give someone a full word clearance on Vatsum and they're like, oh, just text it to me. That was we already had that on Vatsum. We're getting them again right there. That is just true.

SPEAKER_05 43:11

The real world's just calling Vatson. That's how it goes. It's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_06 43:16

That might have been me 10 years ago when I was flying up to Boston and trying to get Evans Reed back correct.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

A lot of palettes will say that. And I is like, depending on how busy I am, sometimes I'll just break down and I'll send it to them. She's like, nope, you can do it. We're gonna do it again. And he just forces it out of them. And he's like, he's just like big coach, it's great. I love listening to him. But he's like, no, you can do it.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Just read back, you can do it. Yeah. I can't y'all not, though, man. Like, that was like going back all those years ago. I screw the airplane. Like, man, I couldn't communicate. Like, I was I was always injured, like, believe it or not, I know. I I know, Mike, it's hard to disbelieve. You know, Johnny not scared to talk. I know. I would do that. Man, I would get on the mic and just like lock up like illegal operation, man. The computer was just like, you know, like you guys ever like had like uh no say intentions on like 90 million apps on and then try to run flight sim. That was Johnny's brain and just lock the freak up, dude. And it really wasn't until so back then was like Satco. I don't know if y'all remember Satco's like old head, straight old head, but yeah, so you know, I used to jump on Satco and you know, you know, this clearances, especially the clearances. And once you to Mike's point, once you get past the anxiety of communicating over a radio, I mean flying the airplane is you know the airplane's easy, yeah, it's easy, you know, rudimentary, you know.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

It's it's in your head. Yeah, it really is. It really is. You're afraid to sound stupid. That's what I I remember. I've I've been hit by the the fear a couple times. It's usually when you're talking to the big Traycons, like you said, like Potomac, like uh Leo said, or or I don't know, Boston. But when I I don't know, I I got a little bit blessed. I was talking to NorCal when I was in my flight train, but it was like the the the underside of NorCal, so they weren't that cool or important. They were doing the smaller Delta Charlie's. And uh I don't know, like that's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_05 45:28

That's probably Shady Fresno, I feel right now, but I'm like, no, go on.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

Absolutely. I would I don't know, I would I would talk stupid on Vatsum, and then someone would correct me in a in a harsh way and then be like, oh hey, maybe I shouldn't say that. And it got to the point where it's like, you know what, what's the worst they could say? They could just be like, you you're just a student pilot.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

It's actually more scary now that yeah, that I'm certificated because now I'm supposed to actually know what I'm saying and not sound stupid on the what's funny, what's funny, you'll have 13, 13,000 hour pilots, you know, and I get them all the time in my local airport, they'll be in the pattern, and man, it'll take them 30 minutes to like, you know, you know, November 7, 8. I mean, it's just take them decades, you know. So now it's it's you know, nothing to feel bad about, man. But yeah, to me, I mean, definitely, you know, definitely communication is one of the biggest aspects of Flight Simmon to really, you know, help me along my journey, you know, doing those Bravo transitions, practicing that in Sim before you didn't that, but you know, before your before your flight, you know, you got to do the next day. We're y'all gonna actually do the Bravo transition. And you know, eventually when I started to get students, you know, that'll be, you know, the first thing I'll, you know, hey, live ATC, you know, jump on SACO, you know, practice those clearances. And you know, because it's it's real, you know, because the same thing I experienced, you know, you'll you know, you'll have that new student and they'll get on there and they'll hit the push or talk and just you know, yeah, you know, completely free. So it's it's definitely it's it's it's it's yeah, well, whatever, Charlie.

SPEAKER_06 47:10

Man, I can't get you to shut up, but uh oh man, uh too cool, man. Uh that was a robust topic. I took uh that took up a lot of time, but I think it was well worth the conversation. It was a

Big Announcements Everyone Is Watching

SPEAKER_06 47:26

lot of fun. Switching gears, like back to I know I asked you guys what you're looking forward to the most for FS Expo this year, but there are gonna be a number of announcements, right? There's a lot of anticipated or highly anticipated announcements from like Thrustmaster, say intentions, any all those folks. What from developers or hardware manufacturers, what are you guys looking forward to the most from an announcement standpoint? What do you think some of the announcements may even be? And again, no particular order.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

717 from who TFDI. You think so? He got to, he got to, man. He got to. You think so?

SPEAKER_05 48:06

I'll I will say I ran I ran into him because they weren't there in an official capacity last year. Oh I ran into Colin, you know, the Buffist guy at the Buffist. I know. So I just off-handed, I was asking him about that, and I I basically got the wink and a nod. So I think it's coming eventually. I just don't know when.

SPEAKER_06 48:33

But uh we had him on the show what was I six months ago? It was a while, man.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

We tried to beat it at it.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

That fish wasn't biting, was it, Johnny? No, man, it was just got skunked on that one, but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:48

Hey, I'll throw this one out. You think we're seeing that 757 anytime soon?

SPEAKER_07 48:51

I was great.

SPEAKER_05 48:53

So I'm in the I'm I'm I'm on the emails with the uh the what's his name? Uh what uh he's got a kind of a hard to say name, but yeah, sure or something like that. Anyway, yeah, and so it sounds like they're in like a second stage or about to enter a second stage beta right now with it. So I think we're close. I don't think we're gonna get a I don't think we're gonna get a date at Expo at least, but it would not surprise me if I mean it's definitely gonna be before the the end of the year, I think. I think yeah, because what was it?

SPEAKER_03 49:23

I think I saw something as like Q3. Yeah, potentially Q three. Potentially Q3. So yeah, let's mad at it.

SPEAKER_05 49:29

And obviously with development, you know, something comes up, something breaks or whatever it is, who knows? But but I I think I think we're very I think we are very close to which I'm really looking forward to that 757.

SPEAKER_06 49:40

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope you're right.

SPEAKER_07 49:49

Leo's log on steam coming out of my ears now, bro.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

Suckers fly over my house every day, and it's like I'm blue on you.

SPEAKER_07 50:00

And I'll even I'll even add to that the the the any slash synaptic 220. I'm Jones with. Yeah, man, that's been a long time coming.

SPEAKER_05 50:09

I was hey, I was flying on Vaster uh last week. We were I was flying into San Diego last week, and with Synaptic 1 and Synaptic 2 on Vatsim. No way landing in San Diego, one in front of me, one behind me. And I asked, I got in the chat on Vat Sim and said, Hey, are you guys the are you guys betas? Are you guys like the devs? And they're like, We're the devs. And I said, How's it coming? He's like, Coming. So they're they're test flying it on the network right now is a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

I was like, that's cool. Just has to take one for the team, go to their booth, and just release it. Like, just take one of the top. Let's just figure it out. I know it'll be bad for all of us long term, but just take one for the team, just do it. Yes, yeah. What's the first thing that happened? What's the worst thing that happened?

SPEAKER_05 50:51

Well, that in the PMDG 747 100, looking forward to you know, as a systems guy and super detailed. Oh man, that's gonna be amazing.

SPEAKER_07 51:00

Yeah, I like that 100 and all, but I need that 400. I need the 408.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

I need the four now the hot take here is like nah, hard pass. I I don't I don't want to deal with all that. That's my man Mike.

SPEAKER_06 51:14

If it's not glass, don't show it to me.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't get me wrong. I love I love the old planes, I love the MD, but there's like a line where I draw where it's just becoming more work than I want to do. Like I'm sure, I'm sure the L1011 is amazing, and I bet you all have tried it or flown it. It's fantastic. I will not be I will not be flying it. It's just too much. I don't want to do all that. Like, I don't want to balance fuel and it just like let me let me get like uh just a touch of modern the 400, beautiful touch of modern. Like, give me a two two-person flight deck. I don't need three, I don't need a flight engineer.

SPEAKER_07 51:53

I think I think like the 727 is is old in the same class, but it's a good balance because even in the real world, you have something that's been retrofitted with like GM units. Like, I love I love flying the FSS 727.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

Oh, it's that's amazing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:10

I mean, even the one that they have with the the the FMS in it is is old school, but it worked. I'll fly that all day, but I ain't messing around with that damn, what is it, the Siva INS or whatever it is? That's my bread and butter.

SPEAKER_05 52:23

I love VC Siva too much. I love VC Siva. I'll take I'll take all your Sivas. Yes, yes. Oh, that's right. That's the other one that should be coming soon because yeah, they're other 70 of 100.

SPEAKER_07 52:38

Yeah, about right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:40

Yeah, that 28 though is a that's a fun plane to fly.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

I don't know. Personally, I want something like what you all just said, but I I want something that's like still flying, I guess. Yeah, I don't know. The A340s, I love them. I love I and I builds, I love Aerosoft's build uh the 600 from TOLUS, but they don't fly anymore, so it's like they do. I guess the 600's fine. There's like six of them now. Yeah, a couple of them. Yeah, so there's like two. It's yeah, it's Lufthansa. So I can only like I know I can fight.

SPEAKER_06 53:20

It's uh it's an inside CTP job. I love saying Luftanza, man. That's uh it's it's great.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

But like I want something like I don't know, give me a 7-6. Like, I need a 7-6.

SPEAKER_07 53:29

I need that that's supposed to be coming with Bluebird.

SPEAKER_05 53:32

We need that 7-5 to come out before they retire them all, which is getting close to the city.

SPEAKER_02 53:37

That's exactly right. Yeah, Delta will never retire that 7-5. No, no, no, no. That thing is too much of a workhorse. They just they got no other rockets in the fleet. There's there's only one space shuttle, and it's the 7-5. They that's why they haven't retired, it goes in and out of anywhere. Yep. If anything like it, yep, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

I don't know, guys. I don't know, guys. We say that, and then I watch it hit the news. Man, I'm just gonna start crying next week or something crazy. Dump aside. You just don't know nowadays. I'm just saying. You don't, you don't, you don't.

SPEAKER_06 54:08

Well, with these fuel prices, that's true.

Freeware Passion Versus Paid Reality

SPEAKER_06 54:11

That's cool. I'm looking for I know Indie Bills dropped some previews of the A380 last week or this past week. So I'm looking forward to hearing more about that. That's again, I think Flyby Wire does a phenomenal job with their freeware version, but it's uh exciting to see one that's coming out from IndieBuilds for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

I'm just glad that I'm glad that they're they're moving into that space. Like I like don't get me wrong, I love our freeware stuff that's out there, but the the issue with freeware is they're not all fly by wire, right? Flyby wire put it, like they have a passion. I talked to them at weekend about this. They have like this passion for keeping it, like this free model, and I I respect the hell out of that, but at the same time, not everyone has that like ability or drive to like keep the project going. Because you know, at the end of the day, we we all have to put food on our table, right? It's time, right? Absolutely, it's time, yeah. And so, like, I'm kind of you know, hot take on this because I think a lot of people got upset when Synaptic went with any builds to to to run that 220, but I'm glad they did. They need to be compensated for the time they're making it. Absolutely. And I told that to the flybow art guys too. I was like, I I wish you guys would go a paid model and make this like your full day job, because like then you guys can get rewarded for your time. I know that somebody got crucified probably for saying, Oh, make more payware out there, but I just the the le they're a unicorn, and I feel like there's definitely room for more unicorns to come out and hit that same model. But like at the end of the day, again, you guys are talking about it joke jokingly, but like fuel prices, everything's going up. So to focus on a project, we you gotta be compensated in some way. Because you know, the the the Patreon or the the the the buy me a coffee that really doesn't put a pound of beef on your table anymore.

SPEAKER_06 55:53

Yeah, no, it's true. Doesn't even be a coffee. Doesn't even be you a coffee.

SPEAKER_05 56:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:01

Yeah, that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_05 56:02

Well, now that a cup of coffee has been established to be about $30 thanks to Professor I'm glad you said it because I was going to go as soon as you mentioned coffee, it was like I knew it was coming, man.

SPEAKER_07 56:17

Y'all remember the last uh and they broke my mute button.

SPEAKER_06 56:23

That's right. That was that was our that was our hot topic last time Leo was on.

SPEAKER_04 56:29

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_06 56:30

We had Leo had to clear the room to get going on that copy. Almost flipped the table. That's hilarious. I'm just looking at time here. I know folks got a lot to do, especially our good friend Evan. I've got one more topic for this group.

AI Air Traffic Control Right Now

SPEAKER_06 56:44

So, where are you guys with AI air traffic control? So say intentions beyond, etc. How do they, you know, first of all, love it, hate it, kind of in between. I know we've had a couple of conversations about it on CTP here with some other folks, but would love to get this broader group's opinion on its place today and sort of where you think it'll go in the future.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

Oh no. Yeah, guys.

SPEAKER_07 57:14

So I don't like AI. I use AI, right? I've used Beyond ATC and I currently use Say Intentions. I think it is an awesome tool to supplement when VAT sim is lacking as far as coverage. Yep, yep. I have several guys in my community whom, you know, a radio shy don't really may not really know the Vatsim procedures and things like that. Guys in my community, you know, kind of encourage them to take the Vatsim courses and things like that, but that takes time. But AI, that like say intentions is something that you can pick up, and it's almost like sitting in the corner listening to live ATC, right? You can pick it up, you can learn it, you can learn it real quick, you can learn the phraseologies, you can learn what to expect to hear, you can learn what to expect to say, and all of that without getting yelled at. Well, say intentions will give you a number to call now. But I think it's an awesome tool, and and you know, it's an awesome tool and it's an awesome supplement for Vatsim. We don't have top-down coverage each and every time that we fly on Vatsim, which is how it should be. But Say Intentions, you know, is able to integrate with Vatsim now, hand you off back and forth, things like that to Vatsim to say intentions. So I think it's an awesome tool that you know both experienced and scary pilots, is as I'll put it. Scary pilots to to kind of help them, you know, learn the ropes, even for the experienced guys. It you know, for me, sometimes it's it's it's even though it's AI, it's fun to fly with a controller controlling you. You know, so that's where I'm at with it.

SPEAKER_06 59:00

No, I got you. That's good. That's that's sort of my my my take on it as well. Anyone else?

SPEAKER_05 59:06

Yeah, I'll I I mean I I haven't dabbled in it. I've watched a number of streams with people that are using either Beyond APC or Say Intentions. I think the biggest advantage to something like that, I remember when Sai Intentions was presenting at Expo Friday last year, I think it was, and they made, or maybe it was the year before, but they made mention of the fact of how you could seamlessly integrate between you know, either when Vatsim goes offline or when Vatsim's coming out, so you're going into their airspace, coming out of their airspace, whatever, so you don't miss a beat, you know, you're you feel like you're under coverage all the time. That part of it sounds really cool. But also to Leo's point, someone who is not very comfortable with Vatsim, you know, you always got to make that leap somewhere. And it's it, you know, the the what was it, the old uh the mo the you know baby steps kind of deal. If you can take a baby step and talk to a computer that you know isn't gonna you know scold you for real, it's a computer at the end of the day. You can mess up with a computer, you can also find the computer's messing up, and you know, you get mad at it. I see lots of screams about that. But as the AI gets better, as the AI gets better, it's always gonna be like I remember flying back in the early days when I wasn't doing VAT sim, and I didn't I didn't want the spotty coverage, but I wanted something, so I was using these little other tools that were out there, and they sucked, but they were still better than nothing. And so I think that's what a that's fulfilling the space here is it's it's never gonna be as good as the the the real person. That touch of being on pilot edge or VAT sim and be able to talk to real real controllers, you know, just like we're we're we're simulating flying, they're simulating controlling. Being able to have that and and the the human factor that comes with that is second to none. And that's why I love being on VAT sim. I love being on pilot edge, but it's a good little gap fill, it fills a niche for people that just don't want to do VAT sim, can't do VAT Sim for whatever reason, it's just not their cup of tea, or they're trying to learn and take that baby step. And I think that's where things like AI tools again. If we treat AI like a tool and use it in a rational way, great, has a lot of potential. As opposed to great, let's just throw everything we do at AI and and hope it solves our lives. That's not gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:21

Yeah, let it do the work.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:22

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:24

No, spot on. Good take, man. Yeah, I know where Johnny and Charlie kind of are on it, but yeah, no, cool. It's Matt, did you go? You you started grumbling, but then you let Leo, Leo, take the phone off.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:37

So I'm I'm curious. He summed it up with his groan.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

That was what the uh look, yeah, so there's like I have a lot of what Mustafa and Leo said. My issue with it is it's very AI-y in the sense of I I mess with it, I won't name which one, but I I did I either did the trial or I did it for real for like a month or something, and I just it it wasn't for me. Just because it's so AI, like the AI is their if we think about LLMs, right? They're they're coded in a way to support the user no matter what. So if you tell them that you're gonna do something, regardless of if you shouldn't, there's a hard bias towards getting you to do that thing. Yeah, and like for example, you know, if I wanted to request a a Bravo transition in Seattle, in real life, they're gonna tell me absolutely not. They're gonna say stay clear of the Bravo. I've never I've gotten more Bravo transitions on Batsim and like on fake world than I have in the real life. I've only gotten one Bravo transition and like I guess they were feeling friendly that day. That's my issue number one. Number two is like it's just very rigid. And again, I I might have tried an older build, maybe it's advanced a little bit, but like if I say, you know, um I can't say short of one six ready to go. If I say short of one-six ready to go, it's gonna break the AI model because it did for me, and it did for me in going in uncontrolled field. So for me, I the human touch is needed. Air traffic controllers are very regulated on what they must say. Pilots, there's certain things you have to say as a pilot that can be said in a few different ways. There's some shalls in maze, but yeah, I'm more of a more of a relaxed pilot. I hit the words I have to say, even you know, in real life or on Matson. I'm pretty much the same in each way. You know, I I'll shorthand a lot of stuff. You know, it's it's kind of a joke we have. I don't know if Evan can relate as he's a bossing controller and he gets a lot of international flights that go out of there, but the the European pilots when they come to the US, it's it's hilarious because they'll tell you kind of their whole life story when they're calling up for a clearance. Versus the US, you know, you don't have to give your gate number, your aircraft type, your departure time, which way you like to push, which way you're you're looking, and what you had for lunch. It's just it's brevity. And uh I'm I'm a brevity type of guy, so shout out to my European guys. I don't hate you, I just hate the way that European uh radio transmissions work sometimes.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:16

It's fun though. I like going over there and doing flights, and it's just like uh you have to remember, and that's another thing that makes Vatsim so great, right? Just uh the the the global concept of it. It's just you know what you're getting in the US differs from what you're getting in Europe just like it does in the real world. And I think tying all that together is just it's just really phenomenal and it makes it really cool. Evan, any thoughts on that? AI versus well not versus, but you know, the the place of of AI air traffic controlling.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:45

No. I thought you know, different partners and sponsors. If I'm gonna talk about say intentions, I'm gonna talk about the stage, the work that Brian and the team have done to support the show. Diamond sponsors this year, big announcements on stage every year. So there will be more of that for sure. I think it's you know, like just if these are things that are just amazing that we have in Flight Sim, that you can even try this, that you can even have this, that if you look back a few years ago, that there'd be five or six different ways that you can have a air traffic control, whether it's human or AI, at any point of the day for any number of subscription prices or non-subscription prices. Like I just think that's amazing for our hobby. And I'm hoping that more and more people, if they discover Flight Sim because of this, or if they get comfortable using Vatsum pilot edge, say intentions, whatever, because of one of these tools. I think those are all positive things. But yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:45

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

I mean, and that's and and that's the thing. And it's not so much a bashing like either, either or, and this is coming from someone that came up before any of that. Batsum or or say intentions. I know for me, it's just it's been a great. tool to bridge the gap between between both platforms. I've used that sim since that sim came out and it's it's been great for me. You know, but you know, to to people's point, it's not a paid service. Folks don't get paid. They volunteer their time. So and I fly at weird times. I mean I'm a data three so I don't have normal people's time. So I fly when I can fit it in. And it's it's great to you know utilize you know services whether it be beyond or say intentions to be able to you know you know to fill that gap in coverage. And uh you know I think you know at the end of the day I think this is a great point in time for any simmer any simmer. Oh absolutely and you know again you know going back to you know learning you know communications which is like the number one thing in in aviating you know I think you know I think those aspects are huge. So you know to say you know whether it's you know and now is it AI? Sure. You know and it's you know we're we're we're looking at the technology of artificial intelligence across you know I work in the healthcare industry we're we're dealing with the same struggles with AI as it is in any other industry. So you know it's it's going to be a growing technology is it perfect no but is it better than you know what we had 20 years ago you know you bet your button. So I mean it's it's in uh I just think we're just a you know in a really gray point in time you know whether you you know despite your feelings you know on the technology or or or what have you you know at the end of the day you know if I'm you know if I'm a student and you know I'm trying to save Hobbs time and that saves me hops time what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The Next Wave Of AI Tools

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

So yeah we've you know we talked a lot about ATC but then there's also the pilot side so there's Bernoulli and a couple of the other you know AI-based kind of flight intelligence softwares out there that I think are really interesting. And we did this thing with Bernoulli this year where people could buy a month subscription and they get some time on the platform at the event itself and it's sold out in like two hours like with slots throughout the course of the weekend which was really interesting. And I think parts of this exist I don't think it's it's fully there yet so someone correct me if I'm wrong but like I'm kind of waiting for the AI software that can like teach you how to fly any airliner because I think that would be really amazing. Like we have little bits of this but if you could be like okay the A220 just dropped and there would be some system that like you know you as an a real A220 pilot could get on and it would know that you're a real pilot. It would just say here's what's different about the sim like teaching you how to put fuel in this plane because you don't do that in real life. But it also could like take Mike who's never flown a plane before an A220 before and be like you're a flight simmer okay so you already know how the dispatch tools work but like here's how you do the setup in the A220 like I would love it if like there was some magical system that could just give me exactly as much help as I want to make it like super super easy to learn one of these airplanes. Like I know that that level of complexity in coding is probably beyond where we are now but like when that thing exists that'll be really cool. Cater to the user yeah I'm sure that's not far away.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:01

Yeah we're in that well and the AI will have been able to read the manual instantly so it's it just needs to you know be able to dis dispatch the information to you. But two to what Johnny said you know talking about the you know it's a great time to be a simmer right now and whether we're talking about AI or whatever else I think we've you know the cool thing about the flight sim hobby it's not just there's the core sim and that's what we've always had either whether it's Xplane or or P3D or Microsoft Flight Simulator, whatever it is. You get this core sim and then you have developers all over the place that find their little niche and create these awesome products and things that you know as a simmer I would never think of to do necessarily but then someone comes out with this and goes oh man that would be really cool and I think of just real fast the the the release we just got recently in jet card which is an expanded idea of using businessjet stuff. It's using AI to create stories for your jet card experience and to do executive aviation so a space that really hasn't we've always had these little these little exec jets around at the sim but this is another just another niche that someone said you know what hey I think this would be a cool thing and it is blown up and it just that just goes to show you we are we're living in the best timeline right there is an endless sea of whether it's hardware whether it's software whether it's ai tools whether it's tutorials whether it's whatever that is just making your sim experience amazing and whatever you want it to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

Shout out FSX for volunteer Sean who will also be on stage helping us out run the stage on Friday all every every time you see somebody in a red shirt come out and help with one of our stage presentations on Friday that's Sean.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:48

Yep absolutely shout out to him for sure for sure super cool he didn't even tell me he was working on Jared Car we talked all the time and then all of a sudden he was like oh yeah I made this day I'm like really I made this thing that oh Jar cost me about three million today who are coming to fighting aviation on there you got me there I'll take it I'll take it I got brought him man I think that's a great segue gents to you wrap this up here with all things flights and expo again taking place this coming weekend

Tickets Options And Final Sendoff

SPEAKER_06 1:11:28

St. Paul River Center in in St. Paul Minnesota for those that are attending obviously you've got everything squared away I would hope by now Evan is there an opportunity to you know if you're in the Minnesota area locally to walk in and register for the weekend yeah I mean hey you can still fly still get a flight it's not too late.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

Come in from Germany if you're Matt Burton and you want to make a trip out of it there's still hotels out there and there are all the details on travel airfare discounts on our website flightsomeexpo.com people can get their tickets online in advance people can get their tickets at the door on the day of you can walk up Sunday afternoon we had people last year walk up on Sunday at like two and they're like good buy a ticket and we're like if you want but like there's like an hour of the show left like no I want to go in like oh yeah sure come on in you know I met one of those people they were like determined to come see me because they live in the area and they were like coming back for family.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:19

So that was one of them but I was also want to say just I'll plug this so Evan doesn't have to if you want to support the show and you can't go get the online registration because then you can still see a bunch of the stuff it's not as cool as being there but it's the next best thing it's a great way to support the show and maybe one of these years when it's close enough to you you can make the trip but it's only like 15 bucks and you get the online experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:42

Yep that's what I did last year.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:44

It's awesome they did a great job of the online presentation yeah definitely yeah I say don't don't be don't be lame like me make sure you get out there don't be like not man yeah be mad you know not imagination all these all these events are they're just worth it big family reunion the two tone Murphy you know gonna be there and uh the CTP guys helpful no drunk uncles fighting um but a loveable drunk uncle fighting that's the difference evan please tell me if you have to kick people out like I I want to know these oh man gents this has been phenomenal any parting words for the folks and again thank you all that tuned in live here spent some time to us enjoyed the commentary in the chat we were we were watching and monitoring uh look forward to seeing you all there hopefully this coming weekend it'll be a blast indeed anything Johnny Charlie man spade new to your animals go Bob Barker on us wow right back to milk those prices right okay yeah you know always check your mirrors when you're backing up just say no to drugs yep say no to drugs all I got both oh yeah all right Johnny take us out before we get we get canceled right now