Spring Cleaning The Heart: What is Forgiveness? - #009

What if forgiveness isn't what you've always thought it was? 

In this first part of our Spring Cleaning The Heart series, we're opening the windows and letting light into one of the most misunderstood areas of our lives—forgiveness. Together we unpack what forgiveness really means (and what it doesn't), why it matters, and how it impacts our freedom, healing, and relationships. 

If you've ever struggled with letting go, felt stuck in hurt, or wondered what God actually asks of us when it comes to forgiving others, this conversation is for you. This isn't about minimizing pain—it's about making space for something better. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast. This is Megan and Larson, and we're so excited to have you here with us today.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Okay, so this week we are going to dive into something that is oh so fun. But before we get into the main thing, um we're gonna talk a little bit about spring cleaning.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Yes. I promise it'll have a point later.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Yes, but I remember growing up where my mom, oh my goodness, like the first day of spring, she's like, this sets the rest of the year. We have to clean the house. And I can say this because she doesn't listen a lot to this. Um just kidding. She does listen, but she'll love me saying this. Um, and it was like chaos. Like oh my gosh, yeah. Cleaning.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Yes. I remember my mom was like flinging the windows open. I don't know if she your mom did that, but if it was like, you know, Florida 75 is refreshing. So we're we're gonna we're gonna fling the windows open. We're getting fresh air in here and buckle up buttercup because we are cleaning this house from the ceiling fan blades to the baseboards. Um, which but it feels so good when you're done.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

But the when you're done, when you're done.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yeah, I I'm the type of person that, you know, when you clean out your closet, I come out looking like a dress-up box just threw up on me.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Like So are you cleaning? Are you playing?

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Just a little bit about I'm like, oh, I wonder if this fits. And so I have a pair of pants on and a hat on. And I'm like, I oh, this is a masquerade mask from a ball I went to and you know, 10 years ago. Like this is cool. And I walk out and I see myself in the mirror and I'm thinking, what the heck is all of this? How did this get here? What am I doing? What's what okay, I need to refocus. Um, but no, my mom wouldn't be like, it's spring, it's time to reset, spring cleaning. And it's funny now that I'm a mom, it's different. Natural instinct is just kicking in. And it's like, oh my gosh, my poor children. So my daughter, she's she's three, and she is um, she's just a little clutter bug. I don't know how she does it. I don't know what it comes from, but and Clint, my husband, is so funny. He's like, she's gonna be an antiquer because she's just like got stuff and all the knickknacks, and she has to pack a bag everywhere she goes. It's bigger than her, and it's just like randomness. She's so cute walking everywhere with it, though.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

I know. I'm like, girl, you got your stuff, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

She's cut her baggage. So and Glenn's like, oh my gosh, this is a four foreshadow of what is to come. Prayers are appreciated now, but she's so cute and so fun. Um, but no, me and Larson were talking about spring cleaning, and I'm like, when the black trash bag comes out at my house, my kids run. We're like, hide your favorite toys. Mom's on a rampage, nothing is safe.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

I am not good at that. I really want to be one day, but I'm like, oh, but you know, remember when we got this? I uh yep. That's why I still got a box of boxes that I haven't unpacked yet.

unknown 3:19

I know.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

And then I look at your sister and she's like complete opposite. Minimal to extreme.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yes. She's like, here's your one bin. You can have a few toys. If it gets outside of that, it goes in the trash, or we're giving it away.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah. Which is also pretty incredible that she can uphold that.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Yeah, so good for her. I'm learning. I'm learning.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Oh man. So yeah, we were talking about spring cleaning, and I was thinking about, you know, this can also be representative of what's going on in our hearts in this season. I feel like spring is just a time for new growth and a time to freshen up and clean things out that have been bogging us down or overstimulating us or frustrating us or things we put on the back burner because we don't want to look at it. And uh the term and the idea of forgiveness came out in all of that. Yeah. Which, as Larson said, is oh so fun. The best way I could put it. It's not oh so fun all the time, but it is oh so freeing. Um that's true. Just like sprint cleaning, it is something that is needed, it's something that is not fun in the process. But when you're done, unless you're that one sicko that really enjoys, you know, scrubbing baseboards. And there are people like that. And God bless you, we need you in this world, but it's not me. I need to hire you. Yes. But I feel so free when my life has order and cleanliness again.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Yeah, it feels like when I like personally, if I'm like struggling or I start to spiral down that way of like really like focused on whatever the you know, sin was against me or whatever the situation was, if I can like reass like take the deep breath and be like, no, I forgive you. And then it is, it's like a it's a really yeah, yeah, it really is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

So in counseling, this is a topic that comes up a lot. Um, and I it's funny because I've I always try to be gentle because it's not a light topic, right? But it is a very serious topic because Jesus himself is like, if you can't forgive, you're not gonna be forgiven. And that is a huge deal. It really is. That we do not talk about uh often. And so, but I think a lot of people get stuck on the how. I that this has been I've been so deeply wounded. How. Yeah. And then it goes back to, well, what do you think forgiveness is? And I think a lot of times people think that forgiveness is just saying, oh, it's fine, you know, and kind of dismissing it. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. If if you think that's what forgiveness is, you don't believe in our God, because our God is a God of justice. Right. Right. And so he's also a God of mercy and love and grace, but he's a God of wrath and justice too. And I think we leave that out and we don't factor all of that in sometimes. And so today we wanted to just kind of talk about the depth of what forgiveness is and what it is not, because there's so many misconceptions, and then talk about the phases of forgiveness, because I think sometimes people think it's just saying I'm sorry um and saying it's okay, like they think it's just like one little conversation, but it is a choice every day, and there are phases to it. Um and there's so much more rich depth to it than I think I think we miss out on it.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, so it's just like dismissive, yeah. And that's not no, I don't think that's real forgiveness.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

No, I feel like it's like wiping the countertop down with a wet rag instead of cleaning the whole house. Like it, like it's like there's a residue there. You wipe it down, and it's like maintenance, but it's not the deep clean. You know what I mean? Does that make sense? I have a visual in my head and it's not coming out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

I'm visually like watching myself clean my house.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

I wipe my counter every night. Me too. Yeah, yeah, but there's like that once a week that where I deep clean my kitchen, and that's a different kind of clean. And so I think you miss the deep clean when you just do the surface level of forgiveness. And so many people only know that. Yeah. And so our hope is in these next couple episodes is that you have a deeper understanding of what it is and a confidence that you can do it.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah. So don't tap out after this first one.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

No, no, listen to the next one. The next one will be really good. And it'll give you a hope of like you're not stuck in the bitterness and anger that you're in. Yes. And and there's a place for that, and there's healing and a release for that too. So there's hope. Right. Okay. Do you want to read through? We kind of have some bullet points of what forgiveness is and isn't. Should we start with what it is?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Yeah. I think I I don't know. I like the what it is as opposed to what it isn't. Okay, let's start with that.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

You go first. Just the first one, right? Yeah. Okay. Forgiveness is letting go of resentment, anger, and hostility towards someone who treated you unfairly, even though you were justified in having these feelings.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yikes.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

You sure you like what it is? I don't like any of this.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

It's just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

It's just kidding.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

So, and then I'll do what it's not. What kind of teeter-totter. So it's tough. Yeah. Forgiveness is not condoning, approving of, or excusing what happened.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

And I think that's where people get stuck because they think that's what it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Just brushing it under the rug. Another cleaning reference. Yeah, I know. Whoa. Wow. I'm drawing. Uh forgiveness is recognizing the wrongdoer is human and treating them decently despite what they did.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Yeah. And there's different levels to this depending on the circumstance, right? Um, just because you forgive someone does not mean you have to have a relationship with them. Does not mean you need to reconnect with them. Um, forgiveness is a heart posture. Yeah. And you can also forgive someone who's no longer here, um, which we'll get into later. I think sometimes people think you have to have a conversation to forgive someone and you don't necessarily have to.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah. Sometimes it's not possible. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

So forgiveness is not forgetting how you were wronged or pretending like nothing happened. Yeah. I'm just gonna leave that there. That speaks for itself. Okay. Your turn.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Forgiveness is a chance to amend a relationship that was damaged if you choose to do so. Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

So again, there are certain scenarios where you probably shouldn't choose to do so out of wisdom and safety sometimes. Yeah. But um the beautiful side of forgiveness is sometimes when those relationships can be amended, especially in marriage, man, um, or friendships that have been friends for a long time. And yeah, like when you work through the power of forgiveness, um, it changes you for the better.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

And you have it's like going to war with someone and surviving and just having that deep, deeper connection.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Yeah, deep it's a bond. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Absolutely. Okay. Where was I? Forgiveness is not an agreement to continue a relationship as it was. After forgiving someone, you can choose to resume, modify, or end the relationship, which kind of plays into what I just said.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yeah. Like you don't have to necessarily give access after that.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Right. Or you've established a boundary. Yeah. You can say, hey, this is painful. Um we need to modify it. Right. If we're gonna make this work.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah. Because you don't want to just sit and you know, constantly be eaten up by it, because that's not making the choice to forgive. Like you have to like if you start, I feel like you can go back to after a little bit of time, like reassessing how like is this modification working or is it not? Right. You know, like you can have that openness. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

And is the other party willing to respect you? So for example, I had a client who had an adult child who was really taking advantage of the mom. Yeah. And the the mom is um trying to love her child, but is actually enabling him. That yeah, that's hard. And so it's hard. And so, but she is eaten up with the resentment because he's just running all over her and taking advantage of her constantly, and she'll say something and he'll say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, and nothing actually happens. And so she had to learn how to forgive him and release him to the Lord, but also set a boundary to say, I'm not going to allow you to disrespect me. And this is how we're gonna do things, or we're gonna need to change the way things are going right now. It like just these hard conversations of forgiveness doesn't make you a doormat. I think so often people see it as a weakness.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

And it's like, no, no, no. Like forgiveness is a release of the resentment in your heart, so you can think clearly to love the person in front of you well and and have the wisdom and discernment to make changes that are hard sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah. I think when I was sorry, it reminds me of dating in high school. And everyone listening goes, ooh, no, don't talk about that. Um, but yeah, like I I really struggled sometimes, like in in relationships in high school of like, because I had some friends, you know, and people that I dated that were like really into some rough stuff. And I was like, Am I like I feel like I started assessing every situation like, am I enabling? Am I not? Am I am I enabling? Am I forgiving? And am I being a doormat or not? And I feel like everyone hits a point in one relationship or the other where they're like, I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

And the question comes down to, okay, God, what is my responsibility and what is yours? Yes, yes. Because you can't because you can't change someone, but you can change yourself and set your own boundaries and and love them. You can set boundaries to where you're not resentful, but you can forgive. And it's hard. It's something that's a process and it's different for each situation.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

But that literally goes into our next one. Does it? Yeah. Nice. Forgiveness is a mental shift or a change of heart that develops over time. Literally what you just said.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yes.

unknown 14:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yes. It's not overnight. It's a process. And and it's not a one-time lamb, thank you, ma'am. I mean, if it's something small, if only that would be wonderful. Yeah. If it was something small, um, that might be a one-time, okay, we're gonna forget about it and move on.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Yeah. How dare you? How dare you? That might be a bigger thing for me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

That's a bigger thing for my son, that's for sure. He won't remember. But being able to say, okay, um, but when it comes to deep betrayal or um chronic lying when you're forgiving the same thing over and over again, or like a hidden addiction that comes out and you're having to reassess the whole last year of your life because you're like, What was that really you? Was it not you? And like building trust and all of that. Yeah, forgiveness is entangled in all of that. And being able to say, okay, as those feelings of resentment and anger come up, giving it back to the Lord. Yeah. Say, Lord, I know these feelings are valid, but soften my heart and I give them back to you because I know you're a God of justice and you're gonna protect my heart.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Um, and we'll get back into all that later. But yes, like it's not a one-time thing most of the time. It's usually an act of obedience over time.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

And shifting your focus or having a mental shift is so hard sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Well, I think you can't do it without God.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah. Because you're battling yourself. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Right. Yeah. And I know my flesh is weak. Yeah, right. Like that my flesh wants to take my hoop hoops out and get, you know, want to go. Let's go. Let's go back to the hockey thing. Let's go. Yeah. That's my flesh. And then I have to for perfect example of my life. Um, a couple weeks ago, I'm emailing back and forth with a uh client who um was not kind. I'll say that. And um, she completely misunderstood what or or didn't didn't even misunderstand. She just automatically assumed something that was absolutely false.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

That happens so much over text, dude. Oh, with like tone and stuff. You read it with the person's attitude and you like this.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah, and that's why I was like, I was so thankful it was over emails because I just took a deep breath. I walked away for a minute. I said, I said, Lord, she's assuming the worst of me. I'm gonna assume the best of her. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah, but I'm like, Lord, I need you to help me. Yeah. So I walked away, and it took me about an hour to think about what to respond, but then I responded and the Lord just kind of put it's like a little flame, and he just like squeezed it out, like, yep, we're done, like we're good. Like you were on fire. Yes, but I like retaliated. My flesh wanted to just pop off and say, actually, you have no idea what you're talking about right now. Um actually. But I'm the Holy Spirit in me was literally yanking the the reins on my tongue and was like, you need to chill. And so I was like, okay, Lord, give me a second. And um, and and then he gave me the words to say, Okay, I understand that this might be what you perceived, but I want you to understand what's actually going on so you know my heart. And I'm thankful that you are comfortable enough with me to share that with me. And and she she ended up apologizing because she completely misread whatever she thought she was reading, right? And so, but that's how God works, and that's how I had to forgive her before she asked for it.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

And that was not in my flesh to do so. Right. So, and I'm not perfect at that. I'm not, I'm not I will be the first one to say that I don't get it right a lot.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

But that was just a recent example of Yeah, walking into like um whenever we were leading youth groups, we would always teach our leaders in the leader training. Um, it's actually an acronym that I learned through Chick-fil-A, working for Chick-fil-A. But it stands, I don't even know if it's still in their training. It's been so long, but it was last. Um, just to even give yourself a breath to de-escalate before you get angry and stuff like that. And the first thing was listen first. Yep. And then apologize, which in your response, you like were like, Thanks for feeling uncomfortable to share that. And that is not a normal response, like a human response. Yeah, that's not me. And then solve and thank. And like, thank you again for sharing and let's let's work on this. Right. Like, it is so hard to do, especially in the in the midst of the fire of it.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Like, and you realize really quick what you're trying to protect, whether it's your ego or your pride or your image or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

And yeah. To be emotionally aware enough, like is yeah, not normal anymore.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

I feel like it's getting more normal in some areas, but some not, yeah. We'll talk about that more later. Yeah, maybe I want to know. Maybe just because I'm talking to people who are trying to become right.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Emotionally aware that my being that is a good thing. That's right. I am glad it is for them.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Okay, so forgiveness is not, where are we at? Forgiveness is not simply saying, I forgive you without meaning it. In fact, you can forgive without ever saying so.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

So this one reminds me of Judah and Izzy. Okay. My kids. Yeah. So trying to teach Judah like that with Izzy because Izzy's kind of like off the rails. And so, like, that's the best way to put it.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

And I'm relate with Izzy a lot.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Yeah, I mean, I get it. And and I'm like, Judah, say you forgive her. I forgive you. And I'm like, that I don't think you do. So like I'm trying to teach him that it's it's deeper, and it's so hard for you know, um a six-year-old who's mad to like under I mean it's hard for adults, but like it's hard for a six-year-old who's mad to just not say the words and go through the motion. Right. And really truly mean it in your heart. I feel like that I don't know, it just reminded me of that. Yeah. So fun.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah. I actually had an incident last night with my kids where Melina, I don't even know what she did. She kicked Dawson or something, and Dawson was in the She's tough. She is probably her. She's tough as boot leather boy. She's in a tutu in princess dress and red lipstick, but she's kids. Yeah, my bets on her on her. But she um her and Dawson were just doing the normal sibling thing, and they they love each other and then they'll bicker and they love each other and they'll bicker and it's normal. But um, Dawson came in and she was like, Susie, kicked me. And so I said, Melina, did you kick him? And she said, Yep. I said, Okay, she's so is she so funny. That's why I told her. Do not let him see your do not break character right now. And so she's like, Yep, I did. And I said, Well, why did you do that? He was in my way. And I said, Okay, well, do we do that to people? Probably not. And I said, Okay, why don't we do that to people? And she's like, I don't know. I said, It hurt your brother. I said, We don't hurt people on purpose.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

And I said, Can you tell him you're sorry? And she said, I'm not ready.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Which for a three-year-old, but but a three-year-old to say that. I'm like, I'm glad she said that. And I said, you know what? I said, Okay, I want you to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

And I said, and when you're ready, you need to tell them you're sorry because that's the right thing to do, and then you need to stop doing it. And she's like, Okay, and in my head, I'm like, she's not, she's gonna forget this in two seconds. But I'm in there floating laundry and they're in the living room, and I hear her say, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Aw, you heard the follow-up. Yes, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Which that is not the case all the time. Those are moments as a parent where You're like, oh my gosh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Maybe I'm doing one something. Do something right.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

And then the next month you're like, what have I done terribly wrong?

SPEAKER_00 22:08

The next day, the next hour.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

No, but they but kids sometimes are sometimes I learned so much from them. Right. But she's like, Mommy, I'm not ready yet. And I said, Okay. Um I didn't know what to say in the second. I was like, all right, at least you're honest. That's more honest than most adults. Because I'd rather you be ready and mean it than say it and don't.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Yeah. So Izzy's situation was more of like, nope. And I was like, uh, well, it's Tom, so do it. And like, how far do you push? Let's get this up running. Yeah, because I'm gonna forget about it. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

And and they still have consequences for their actions and stuff, but you want to help model the reconciliation part. And as a parent, I'm trying to be better about apologizing to my kids when I need to too.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Um, which is always fun. Yeah. So um, okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

You said mental shift.

unknown 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

So forgiveness is a process that can start at any time. You can even forgive a person who is no longer in your life. You kind of said that earlier, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Um, yeah, I've had the privilege of working with um teenage girls in Honduras who um some of them are human trafficked, some of them were just severely abused by their own families, some were orphaned. Um, the stories though that they survived were horrendous. But so I had so I was um had this rule when I lived there that if my door is open, you can always come in and talk to me. And like I'm never gonna force you to share your story. But if you need someone to talk to, you can always come in my room uh when my door is open. Um and so I left it open 90% of the time unless I was baby or sleeping.

unknown 24:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

When it's closed, I'm either sleeping or naked getting dressed. Like so don't open the door. And they still did sometimes, but it's fine. Um, but being able to to just have that ability for them to share their story in a safe place. And so some of them it took them time, some of them came the day I said that, yeah, but all of them came and shared their story at one point or another. And I was just humbled and honored to to uh have access to their heart like that, which is how I feel in counseling too, and just behold their story. And um, it was funny because they spoke Spanish, I spoke English. I could understand a lot of it, I couldn't speak back a lot. So I had to learn how to be a really good listener. Um and by the end of it, I could speak a lot more. But but in the beginning I've told them that I was like, I can't talk very much, but I know what you're saying. So, like, if you want to come tell me your story, come tell me. And so I was just in awe of them. And I think it was almost a gift that I couldn't talk back because that's like just this place that they could go. And um, and then I could talk back, and then they're like, oh gosh, but here comes the accountability. But um, what was amazing was these girls I'm trying to think of how like I should keep this rated G, but the level of abuse that some of these girls went through.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

And then for them to look at me and say, I'm not mad at him anymore. That's yeah, only God. I forgive him. And I would ask to and the joy that they had, and they heal they healed overnight, they were different overnight, and I could talk about that a whole other day. But um, and some of them would have things bubble up, and obviously trauma and anger and nightmares. I'm running to their room at two in the morning to hold them in the middle of a nightmare, like things like that. But their joy and their healing, I feel like God redeemed so much time when they forgave. Yeah. And it was amazing because you would ask them, like, what is how did you forgive that person? And they'd always say, God, Dios, you know, God, He forgave me. He's gonna take care of that person for for me. I'm a child of God, He's gonna take care of that. And just the childlike innocence of it all um was so inspiring to me.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Well, the acceptance of that is hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very hard.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah, and some of these girls had babies that look like the men that abused them, you know. Can't even imagine and they were incredible moms and loved their babies and and were and it's funny, a lot of them, most of them look like the mom, but they're still the child of someone who hurt them, right? And so that they wouldn't trade. And I asked all of them, you know, what is it like being a mom?

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

And all of them say, This is a gift.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah, it's like it's the redeeming part of it.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Yeah, yeah. I had one of the moms, she had a little boy, and um, she said, you know, I never thought I would be able to love a man again, and then God gave me a son.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

You know, and then just the perspective that is not human. No, no, it's not. And but that's what freedom does is it heals you and it liberates you, and it and it gives you so much more.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Constant reminder with a kid.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yeah. And it's like the release of bitterness and anger because you don't want that person to have any more control over you. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, sorry, I get on a soapbox. Okay, is it my turn or your turn?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

I think it's yours, and I have something to go with it when after you read it. Okay, where am I at? That I something you do for the other person. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Okay. Forgiveness is not something you do for the other person. Forgiveness is for you.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yeah. Um, so I I've been watching Back the Chosen. Um because I love it. And if you haven't binged it and you binge other things, you should swap to the chosen. Um, because it's better for you too. Um, but in one of it, in one of the things, it's Matthew talking to Jesus in the scene. And this is not actually it's the creative freedom that they took um of explaining forgiveness. But it's he has the tiff with Simon Peter, and he says, You don't apologize to be forgiven, you apologize to repent. Forgiveness is a gift from the other person. And as soon as you would text me about us talking about forgiveness, I don't even remember when it was, like a week or maybe two ago, I don't remember. Yeah. Um, I had watched this episode and I was like, play that back. Like I rewound it. Say it one more time because it's so good. Say it again. It says you don't apologize. This is Jesus talking about you in in the show. You don't apologize to be forgiven, you apologize to repent. Forgiveness is a gift from the other person. It just hit hard. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

And when you say that, I think, oh gosh, like we are made in God's image, and we're there are a few times I feel like when we're creating, we're so close to God's image because he's a creator. But I also think when we're forgiving, we're also so close to the image of God. We will never do it to the capacity that he can.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah. I had just never really heard like but it's a gift, it's not deserved. I hadn't heard like that you apologize to repent. I was like, and it Yeah. And it's obedience.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Yeah. Right? Like, because so so elaborate on that. What does it mean that forgiveness leads to repentance? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Well, repentance is turning away from so I mean when you are giving or you are apologizing to repent, then you one, hopefully in your best ability, never do that again because you're turning away from it. Um but I also feel like when you apologize to repent, you you realize the severity of what you did. Yeah. And it and that it needs forgiveness. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

There's two sides of it. Right. So read it one more time. Because I'm like, I have so many thoughts that I'm like, okay, I need to.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Well, I didn't give this to her before, so they're just swirling, and I maybe should have because I should have thought about how I know it's good. Um, but it says you don't apologize to be forgiven. You apologize to repent, and forgiveness is a gift from the other person.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Right. So this is talking to the person who needs forgiveness or desires forgiveness, someone who's wronged someone else. So you don't act, you don't apologize. You to you you can't control if the person forgives you or not.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Right. It's up to the other person to forgive. So it's it's on the other side of the coin a little bit, but but it's good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

No, it's good to look at it from both angles because I know I've been in a position where I needed to repent and apologize often. Um I know with God it's almost daily. So but like, yeah, and it's powerful to think of it from both ways.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Yeah, I have such a hard time. Like if I feel like I wronged anyone, I have just this ache and this holy spirit in you, girl. Yeah, and this pit feeling that I'm like, I remember um when with being married to uh my husband, it was it was like that. Like if I felt like we were off at all, yeah, I would be like, What'd I do? Like, yeah, is it did I do something? What happened, or like something? You just feel it when you have Jesus, He He calls it to the light, right? And so you just feel that uneasiness and like I can't, I can't move forward. I'm so bad about moving forward if it's not like solved. So yeah, I like and if I unintentionally did it, you're gonna have to tell me because I don't, I don't know. But yeah, it's it's tough. It is, yeah, it's tough.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

I've lost sleep over wondering what I did wrong. And sometimes and sometimes it is, and it's and you don't always get the answer.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

You don't always have closure, right? Which is also very difficult. Yeah. Um okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Ready for the next one? Yeah, it's your turn, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah. I'm like, I keep forgetting. Um forgiveness is an opportunity to heal. Forgiveness can reduce symptoms of trauma, anger, anxiety, and depression. Additionally, it can increase hope and self-esteem. That is biblical, but also backed by science. Yeah. I love the hope part.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

And it's something that this is a thought I kind of had a minute ago and lost, and it just came back. On the repent thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Not only do we apologize out of repentance, but I think we forgive out of repentance too. Because forgiveness is saying like I don't believe that God's sacrifice is big enough to cover you. Does that make sense? Say it one more time. Like I think if you hang on to unforgiveness and bitterness and anger and you choose to not forgive, it's saying, it's almost like saying, I believe that God is big enough to forgive me, but his sacrifice wasn't big enough to cover you.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Yeah, it's an ego thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

And it and it's kind of like when you forgive, you repent from whatever you're justifying to hang on to.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Yeah, it's like you're laying down your pride and like, hey, God covered their sin too. Yeah. You know, like it's they're in the image of God too. Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Even at their worst, he died for them too.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Yes. Yeah. And that's hard.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Uh yeah, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

I feel like I've said that on everyone. That's hard.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

That's so hard. All of it. It's hard. But it's but and so stick around for part two because we're gonna get to the how right now we're doing the what is it, but we're gonna get to the how. And yeah, and the good news is that you can't do it on your own. Yeah, but you don't have to do it on your own. Yes. And so we'll get there. But no, it is hard, and it's supposed to be hard because forgiveness always comes with a sacrifice. It is, yeah. And I think the ultimate act of forgiveness was the sacrifice on the cross. Like it cost him everything. And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

That's what I was thinking about that when we were even talking about spring cleaning, and I love, I'm sure it was intentional from the Lord. I don't know, like um, but like how it comes after Easter, right? So after he's sacrificed. Oh yeah. And then now we're talking about spring cleaning or heart and stuff. I don't know. It just aligns to me because then it does bring so much hope and perspective, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Boom.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

New growth, springtime. Okay. Um forgiveness is not getting even or getting revenge. Getting even might feel good in the moment, but unlike forgiveness, it does not resolve anger and resentment.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Right. Okay, I've got a story. Yeah, real quick. Okay, so there were these like, you know how you okay. You've seen the movie Mean Girls? Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay. So, you know, from our growing up. Um, and I kind of had like a set of these in my school with me in high school. Yeah. Uh, and it was because, you know, the new girls, and then, you know, new the private small Christian school. And, you know, so I'm the new face and get to meet all the girls' boyfriends. Yeah, stuff like that. So just instant tension. Yeah. Um, and one day my sister turned four. Yes, yes. One day my sister, who was two years younger than me, so in two grades younger, she comes over to the high school. So she's in middle school. She comes over to the high school, and some of these girls like walk past me while I'm like getting stuff out of my locker and they like flick me off. Well, I didn't see it because I'm paying attention to my locker, but my sister did.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Oh boy, you messed with the wrong.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

So they like, yeah, I was like, she said, Did you see that? And I said, see what? And she's like, they just flicked you off. And I'm like, okay, like I don't care. Yeah. I was more of like, just let it roll off. Who cares? Like, that's their problem. Yeah. Um, but my sister was like, I'm gonna get them. And I was like, what? And before I can say anything else, the seventh grader is chasing these 10th graders down the stairs, trying to catch up with them to just set it straight. Oh, did she? Well, she I mean, she caught up with them, but you know, they didn't, their hearts were what they were in high school, so like they didn't really care. But like she was like, do not do that to my sister again. She was always like, Don't make me, I was always like, Don't make me stick my sister on you because I still take care of it.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

So it just reminded me when talking about getting back at someone because I was very much like, and like it didn't hurt me. Like, yeah, and going forward, they did like, you know, try and throw things at me occasionally, but I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_01 37:27

It's so stupid it is dying.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

So yes, I don't know. It just reminded me.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

It's so true. And that's a good point, though, because as I I know my mom, like she's a gracious, loving woman, but if you mess with her great step to one of them and see what happens, yeah. And and and it's funny, we joke because my dad has like this incredible delete button. He either has an awful memory or he has a really we're not sure which one delete button, and I think it's the delete button, but we joke about it. But he has the he is my mom is like, it makes me so mad because he's just incapable of holding a grudge. But the reality is he's too busy doing his own thing that he don't have the time or energy to deal with it, and he just he just lets it go. And that's been learned and practiced over time, right? Right. But my mother will remembers for him sometimes, and so and which is a good thing because she's like, Hey Steve, do you remember that's wisdom about this conversation? Let's pray about this person, let's pray about the situation. And he's like, Oh yeah, I forgot about that, you know. And so they balance each other out, but it's just funny how sometimes we can forgive people who hurt us, but it can be hard for us to forgive people who hurt others. Yeah. And that we're still called to forgive. Yeah, I've seen that.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah, and especially with kids and family and parents and things like that. Um yeah. So, and it's funny because um I actually watched it's not funny, I don't know why I said it's funny. But I actually it's a thing. I watched a video um that another church put out recently that I love, and um they're doing a thing on forgiveness right now, and he was talking about um his dad and how much he loved his dad, how special their relationship was, and then one night his dad went out with some friends and there was a shooting, and he got killed, and he was innocent, and um his son was so angry at what was stolen from him, and the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy. And so he was angry, and his anger was justified, like that is valid anger, and God was angry, I'm sure. Like that is, you know, God is a God of justice, and so but his grandparents at the trial stood up and forgave him, forgave this man, and he said that wrecked him. Yeah, and so for three years he wrestled with, I know I need to forgive this guy, I don't know how. Yeah, because he's taken so much from me. And the Lord kept walking with him and working on him, and he ended up writing a letter that stated what what the impact was on him, how deeply he had been hurt, what he had stolen, and then at the end he said, But I forgive you. I'm choosing to forgive you. It's a choice, not a feeling, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

And then he got a letter back from the guy. Oh wow. And the guy said, I actually, because of your grandparents forgiving me, I actually got saved. And I've been doing ministry behind bars and like this whole insane, beautiful story. And they don't change them. Yes, and they don't all end like that, but you will never know unless you're obedient. And sometimes we don't know the side of heaven, right? Like, well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

We don't always have to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Your job is to be obedient and the command is to forgive. And so, and we'll again get into how because and he talked about how too, which is cool because it aligned with what I would have been studying and reading and brushing up on for this. And so I'm just excited for the freedom that hopefully comes to your heart when you choose to forgive. So, yeah, is it my turn?

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Um no, it's your turn.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

No, it's last one on your side.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Yeah, forgiveness is a personal decision that only you can make for yourself, no one can make you forgive another person. True. Yeah. I'm not ready. I'm not ready. Okay. Well, it's almost done.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

It's Lena's world. We're just living in it. Um okay. Forgiveness is not something that can be forced. Just because you want to forgive doesn't mean that forgiveness has been achieved. Um, which is huge, and we're gonna talk about that next time. But forgiveness, it it is a decision and a process. It's kind of like getting saved. You you are saved when you decide that you believe in Jesus and you're gonna give your life to him. But sanctification is a process over time, and you get more and more and more like him over time. Discipleship and walking through fire and testing your faith and growing in relationship. It's a process. And forgiveness is very much the same thing. It's not a one and done, it's not a feeling. Thank God. Um, because and I think a lot of people struggle with that. They're like, oh my gosh, I still feel bursts of anger towards this person, but I'm trying to forgive them. And I said, You can have both at the same time. It's gonna be something that is worked out of you as you continue to surrender it. Um, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah, I'm amazed at how many things you can hold parallel to one another. Yeah. Like through just life. I don't think I've ever like had a light shone on it until the last few years of my life. But it's it's I'm so thankful that there's always like that the God side of it, if you will, like the the positive, the good side, the not ignoring but embraced and embracing.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

And there's so much hope. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

And I just, yeah. I'm just thankful for Jesus because I don't know how people are living in this world without him right now. And that I could talk about that a whole other day.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

But oh yeah, that passion thought uh truly living is part of the uh lyrics of do you want to oh gosh, I'm gonna butcher this. Um like the one it just came out. Um, is it just only by the blood, I think is what it is. Oh, yes. But it's like, do you want to be uh forgiving, blah blah blah, truly living? Yes. And because that's what it is. That's what I'm trying to get to. Truly living is the surrendering to Jesus and him working through you to solve things like this. Right. Like the unforgiveness in your heart. Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

And I think when we choose to not forgive too, we idolize the anger and the bitterness. And we also allow it to form our identity, which we kind of talked about that a little bit before, is like when you choose not to forgive, you're choosing to allow this thing to consume you and to control your behaviors and your thoughts. And it affects how you react to everything. Everything and everyone. Yeah. And I think some people are afraid to take the leap to forgive because they don't know who they are without anger and bitterness. Yeah. Being being free is scary. Yeah. I actually asked someone the other day because I'm talking to her about, you know, what I'm seeing in her and what I said, I think you're you have a stronghold on you, and it's unforgiveness. And she had a million excuses and started backpuddling and stuff, which it is scary. It's a lot to take on at first. And but I said, Don't worry, like we're gonna talk through it. I'm gonna coach you through it. Um and then finally there was so much pushback that I just kind of got quiet and I was listening to her. And the Lord whispered to me as she was talking, he's like, Ask her if she's afraid to heal. Because who are you? Yeah. And so I said, I know this is weird, but I have a question for you. And she was like, Yeah, I said, Are you afraid to heal? And she just looked at me. Yeah. And she started sobbing. And I said, Why? And she said, Because I don't know who I am without this. And I said, What do you want to? And she said, Yeah. And I said, Well, that's a good place to start. So that's where we're starting. That's part one of forgiveness. Part one. So is there anything you want to add?

SPEAKER_00 45:33

Uh I don't think so to this one. No, why don't you? I think it falls somewhere under the next one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

It'll be good.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Yeah, but I think it's so important and it's it is good to not always have something like that you're just not you're you're not breaking that chain. Like, you know what I mean? Like it's it's hard to be bound. Oh yeah. I want to be unbound. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

I had a client, another client that said, you know, like, I want to forgive because I don't have the strength not to. Yeah. And I'm like, amen. Yeah, it's it's hard to forgive, but it's way harder to live in bondage. Was that me?

SPEAKER_00 46:13

I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

It might have, it might have been, actually. I don't know. It sounds like you.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Yeah. I feel I feel that way.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

That's what I'm wondering.

unknown 46:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

My clients, my clients inspire me all the time, and I write down their quotes sometimes that that was one of them. Sounds like you though.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

You probably said it. I don't know. I go back and forth on that sometimes. It's hard. It's hard. It's a daily thing. It's a daily surrender. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Well, let me pray us out. Okay. Lord, thank you so much for being the ultimate sacrifice of forgiveness, God. Thank you for leading the way. Thank you for giving us hope. Thank you for giving us purpose and the ability to be free from the anger and resentment and the bitterness that sometimes can choke us. Lord, and I just pray for the listener. Um, I pray that their heart is stirred if they they need to forgive someone and don't know how, Lord, I pray that you give them the courage to start walking in that direction. And I just pray for some spring clean hearts, Lord. I just pray that you begin to wipe away some of this residue that has been holding people back from fully living for you. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Amen. Thanks for joining us as we learn every day as well. Yeah. Work in progress. Amen. Bye.

unknown 47:33

Bye.