Spring Cleaning The Heart: How to Forgive - #010

Last episode we talked about what forgiveness is and what it isn't. In this episode, we take it a step further and dive into the HOW. Because, let's be honest, forgiveness can feel impossible sometimes!

We walk through the practical stages of forgiveness, giving you real, tangible ways to process pain, release what's been held onto, and move toward freedom. More importantly, we talk about how to invite Jesus into each step—letting Him meet you in the hurt, the resistance, and the healing. 

If you've ever struggle to forgive or felt stuck in the process, this conversation is for you. Freedom is possible, and you don't have to get there on your own.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hey guys, welcome back to the Talk It's a Paradise Podcast. I'm Megan and Larson, and we're just so excited that you're here today.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Larson, how was your week? Um, it's been wild. I made a crazy decision. Do you want me to go ahead and change the story we've got? My crazy decision was to take the kids to Disney, which I I do quite often, but I just you'll understand once I finish the story.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yes. That is like that is bold. That is a big move. So don't know if my kids make it.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Well, we barely did. Um, so we went Friday after school, picked the kids up from school, and headed that way. And, you know, minor traffic, not that bad for I-4. Um, and we like are all excited. Um, Judah actually took like a nap on the way, which is even better because when he gets there, he's like happier. Yeah. Um, Izzy won't sleep. So she I've had to entertain her. Um, so we get there and we get all of the stuff together. And if if you've ever been anywhere with me, um, some of you listening may have. It takes me a little bit to get out of the car. Um, because I just have all the things with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yes. But you are a great friend to have, Larson, because I'm the person who has none of the things. So you're like very type A, I'm very type B. I'm like, oh, they'll have water in the park. Like I'm very opposite. So that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

So let's get it, get the stroller out, get the cups, get the stroller cup holder, like all the things, you know, that we need for this little trip. I even take a snack bag in, and 98% of the time we don't touch it. But just in case we've got it because I need snacks. Again, we've we've covered that. Yes. Um, so we like go, um, we walk from like the furthest, I think it's one of the furthest villain lots. It's Scar. Um, and so it's like past the little like part where they actually block off a safe part you can walk. So it's like past that. And we walk all the way in, go through security, which is a process with kids, anyways, if you've been. Um, and then we roll in and I start to look for my phone. And I'm like, oh no, my phone.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

And your passes are on it, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:30

My passes are on it, my cards are attached to the back of it.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Oh, so all your money, all your everything. You got the snacks, but you don't got the tickets.

unknown 2:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

So I got the important things.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Priorities. Right. And my Apple Watch is like not set up to what it needs to be, so I can't use that for payment either. Otherwise, I would have for that in the passes. So, because I, you know, don't charge it all the time. Um, see, I'm not all type A.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

You're like, yeah, I think more. I think there's a type C somewhere because I feel like sometimes I'm yeah, I think I fluctuate too.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah. So we do that and it's like blazing hot outside. Like the in-depth heat index is like nine.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

And you're in just black asphalt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yep. And I'm in my, you know, the best I can dress for Disney, um, where I'm not like literally just showing everyone my sweat. So I'm I'm already a bucket of sweat at this point, just rolling in. And so then I'm like, no, my phone, and it's just me and the kids, and I'm like, we have to go back to the car. And Judah goes, What? And I was like, How daddy? I'm so sorry. I was like on the verge of tears because I know what it takes and what it's about to take. And I'm like, no. So we roll back to the car. I'm pushing them in a double stroller that I've, you know, been doing since they were born.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Um they're both toddlers. They're not looking.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Yeah, they're both about 43 pounds apiece.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

So you got that, and then you got the snack bag. You're you're pushing. Push.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Yeah. So we go all the way back, and then we come back. And at this point, Judah's kind of like melting down, which I understand because I feel the same way inside. But I cannot show this. So I just put my head on, like, we're almost there, guys. And they had to walk part of it. Um, I did sneak my car closer. So at that point, because there were no attendees over there. So I like I pulled out of the parking spot, backed all the way down the one-way part, and then acted as the mount. Oh, wow. That is dedication. So I pull all the way up and I'm like, guys, look, we don't have to walk so far. But it's still a good little trek before you get to the monorail. So I'm like, oh lord. So we go and um he starts melting down. I'm like, okay, well, drink your drink your drink. Like maybe if you get something that'll like cool you down a little bit. He's like, no. I'm like, why not? And he he's like, kids will look at me and laugh at me. And I'm like, what is happening? Like, we've been drinking out of the same cup since you were like one. Yeah. Like, what's going on? And so I'm like, I can't get him to calm down. Yes, he exactly how I feel like it's a little bit more. Delirious, yeah. Yes, yeah. So and then the monorail shuts down. So we get on the boat and we are, you know, clustered in there on that boat because everybody's like, not the monorail. So we go to the boat and we get on. I'm really not complaining about being able to go to Disney, but kind of sounds like it.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Um, but anyways, I think you're setting the scene for the we're getting to the point. Yes, we're getting there.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

So I go in the boat, and he's like, he's like trying not to be very angry with me, but he is. And so, like, anyone who looks at him, he's just like mean mugging. And he's like, I don't understand why you would do that. And I'm like, accidents happen. Like trying to keep very positive in this, like, I'm wiping sweat out of my eyeballs. Um, and so we go back through security, all of that, get on get on the boat. We get to the park, and I'm like, okay, got my phone, we're good. And he's still like escalating. Like, I can't get him to calm down. He won't drink his thing. He now decides he wants to walk because he's too old for the stroller. And I'm like, not today. We're at Disney and you need to get your ribbon in the stroller. It didn't work. Um, so he's walking and he's very angry. And I pull over to the side as you first walk in, pull my pull my stroller over and park it. And I'm like, Judah, I don't I don't know what you want from me, but I can't do anything right now. I but I just need to stand here or I'm gonna lose it. I was like, mommy wants to cry too. But because I know this was hard, and now I know he's hurting, so then that's hard. And I'm like, but we're here and we I just gotta keep going. I don't know, like we're gonna take a B.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Check all of our attitudes for a moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

And Izzy's like, ooh, can I have a snack? Like the whole time. I'm like, that's my girl. Yeah. I'm like, Izzy, do you think right now is the time? It's always the time. Yeah. She's like, what? Like, just not phased. Yeah. And I love her for it. It's a blessing. But then I'm like, fine, I'll just get Izzy like a snack or whatever. So we go, she always wants popcorn immediately. So we go in the popcorn line and they have the the Mickey bars, which is like the vanilla ice cream with the like a dilly bar, like the chocolate around it. Yeah. And um I like go to get her one, and Judah's like, well, I want one, but I don't deserve it. And so I just ignore it.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Because he's feeling guilty, because he's angry, but he's also pretty not nice to you. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

And he knew. Yeah. He knew. And he knew I was on the verge of like losing it myself.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

And so I just go through the line, I get, I just don't even respond to him. And I just get two of them, and then I hand him one, and he's like, Mom, I don't deserve it. And I'm like, you're right. I love you, but you're right. You're right. You don't deserve it. You don't. But I'm in my head, I'm like, I've got to get this kid to calm down, and I need something literally cool, and he won't be happy if I spray him with a water bottle. So ice cream it is. And it changed.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

But also, you would never in a million years buy one of your kids an ice cream at Disney and not the other one. Right. Because you're a loving mom. Yeah, that means it was funny because we've been talking about forgiveness, and I'm like, my goodness, like, yeah, that's the point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't deserve it, but here, enjoy. Enjoy it because you might as well. It's a gift. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you told me that story the other day. My first of all, I was just proud of you because that's hard. It was like it was wild. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

It was another adventure, you know. I'm like, Lord, what are you trying to teach me? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

I can pass. Yeah.

unknown 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Yeah. I yeah, I think you got an A plus on that one, Larson. Um, but no, but that kind of like segues into forgiveness a little bit, kind of. But I just thought the story was such a picture of I mean, we're all just yeah, the same as Judah. Like we are little Judah in that scenario.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah, pitch our fit and then realize we don't deserve the grace and mercy we're given.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah. But the trick is do you receive it when it's given? Yeah. He did eat the Mickey Bar. He did eat the Mickey Bar.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Izzy's fell off halfway through. Oh worry. She ate some of my ice cream that I got later.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

We figured it out.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

She's fine.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Now I want an ice cream bar.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah. They got him at um Dollar General now. Really? Yeah, you can get Mickey. Don't tell my kids that.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

I'll try to not show up with them. It's funny. Um, so to segue into our conversation, I was trying to think. Last week we talked about it was part one of spring cleaning your heart. We're talking about forgiveness and getting rid of bitterness and anger anger and all the things.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Yeah, what it was, what it wasn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

So we talked about what it was, what it wasn't. And this week we want to go into the how. So not the what, but the how. And in counseling, we talk about forgiveness. And there's there's people who dedicate their entire careers to forgiveness. It's there's it's really fascinating, actually. Uh for me. Some people be like, no, it's not. But but the more I learn about it, the more again it it's just evidence that God is real and the gospel is true. But um, I'm not gonna go into that side of things today. Today, I just want to kind of lay out the practical steps of forgiveness that people don't realize always are a part of it. And then um the main stronghold of why people don't forgive. Um so the four stages of forgiveness. Um, the first stage is awareness. So awareness is acknowledging the hurt, acknowledging the sin against you, acknowledging the pain and the depth of it. So it's naming it honestly, admitting the impact, the anger, the grief, the betrayal, the disappointment, the um being violated sometimes. Like there's so many things that sin can do against you.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah, it does make you feel like sometimes you're like an alternate reality whenever something hurts so bad.

unknown 11:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

You're like, is this really my life? Is this real? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah. And where do I go from here? Yeah. Um and sometimes it's amazing how many people I talk to that have deep anger and they have reason for it, right? There's been abuse or there's been betrayal or there's been awful like life is hard, y'all. I don't know if you know that or not, but there's there's some wild things going on out there, and we all go through it in our own version of it. But um, but there's just anger and bitter at the world, and they don't even know why, right? And so I I start to probe and pick, and I'm like, okay, is there who hurt you? What what hurt you? Yeah, what's going on? And then they start to get closer to the bear, and then they get scared to poke the bear. Like if I look at this, I have to deal with it.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

And sometimes it's easier to be angry, and I've been angry so long that I don't know who I am without it. And it's like a whole nother identity issue that I could go down to. But so the first step is like poking the bear. It's like ripping, bringing all the darkness out into the light and saying, This is the ugly that happened. This is the scope and the depth of what needs to be forgiven.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

That's just step number one.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Yeah. And you so want that deep. I feel like even deeper than sometimes the anger is like you don't want to be a hateful person. You don't want to be a hurt person that hurts others. Yeah. Like, and it's exhausting to hold on to that. It's exhausting. It's a lot of work for either one.

unknown 13:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

It's hard to let go and it's hard to hang on. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

There's freedom in the freedom in letting go eventually. Yeah. Um, so that's step number one. Step number two, once you say, okay, this is what it was, then the step number two is honest processing of it. So that's a layer deeper, right? It's an identifying what you lost. So you've lost trust, safety, innocence, time, um, perspective. Like there's so many things. Someone could have literally stole something from you and you lost an item. Like so many things can be lost or stolen. Um, expressing anger and grief in a healthy way is a big part of this stage as well. Which you know about grief, and we've talked a lot about grief. And that is not that is a little word with a big Yeah, so many layers.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

So many layers to it.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

So, like, and then that's why I'm like, I'm just skimming over this, and I'm like, I do entire courses on this. Yeah. Um, which and I'm not, and I'm still not an expert, but I'm like, my job is just to help people flesh it out and and and walk through it.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah, that one that can be a whole series and it's all just that one part.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

You could do it, yeah, podcast on each stage.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Um so then um honest processing also means like bringing the full weight of it before God. So this is like you bring God into the mix and say, Lord, help me to see this. Where are you?

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Where were you?

SPEAKER_01 14:45

This part reminds me of the Job part where he kind of does the crash out. Yes. That we talked about a few episodes ago.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Yes. Where it where you ask God to give you clarity and vision and spiritual eyes to see, okay, how is this, how are you gonna turn this for my good? Because it's a promise. Yeah. That God turns all things for the good of those who love him. So if you love the Lord and you're his kid, he's gonna turn whatever happened for good for his glory, right? For his glory. And good doesn't always mean sunshine and rainbows. It just means it's either gonna make you draw you closer to him or it's gonna sanctify you in a way that you can honor God and honor others and serve others well. Like God doesn't waste any pain. And so during this stage, you understand the purpose behind the pain that God gives you because he's not gonna waste it.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Right. That is such a a good like it's hard sometimes to come to this point, even step two. Yep. Like it's hard to get there, but it is such a good thing that you can hold on to that like you don't have to have it all figured out, right? Like God's gonna walk it. Right. And he's gonna be hand in hand with you walking it.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

And he's gonna feel it layer by layer. Yes. Um, yeah, you're not gonna break. I think a lot of in this this um stage, a lot of my clients are like, I can't do this. Yeah, I'm gonna break. Yeah. Or if I allow myself to start grieving, I'm never gonna stop. Um and yeah, it feels true, but it's not. Yeah, right. Um because just what you said, God walks with you. Yeah, and he holds it for you, and his yoke is easy. Um, and he's so close to the broken hearted, the Bible says. And I believe that with all my heart.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Yeah, the blessed are you ones.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

I'm like again, that goes back to blessed. Um, our our idea of blessed is a little different sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

I was like, what were you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 16:47

I don't know if I want to be blessed. Yeah, I'm just kidding. Just never mind, never mind. I'm just kidding. You know, it's so so interesting you say that because I was listening to a podcast the other day, and um, it was a pastor, and he was talking about his season with cancer and how awful that was and chemotherapy and all of the yuck that comes with that. Oh my gosh. Yeah, there's so much there. And um, anyone who's walked with someone through cancer, you know exactly what that means. But someone asked him, you know, like, where do you think God was in it? And they were just having this conversation, and he was in this processing season, and he was like, you know what's crazy? He said in a really weird way, I miss it. And he's like, I don't miss the cancer, but I miss the intimacy I felt with God. And I feel like anyone who has walked through a genuine valley, and everyone does eventually, or walked through fire and they felt God holding them together, feels that. Yeah. Because when he said that, it took my breath away. And I could remember the exact moments I felt what he was saying. Like, I don't, I don't like, for example, with my dad dying, going to heaven, coming back, and that being in a coma and that whole like three weeks of just intense people say, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, no, please don't say that. Because like it was awful, wouldn't recommend it for anyone ever. Not on the to-do list. No, but the way that God showed up in hundreds of little ways and big ways, and the miracles that we were able to see, and the closest that we felt, and the like I could go on and on and on. Like, I would not trade what God walked me through and what it felt like to walk with him through it for anything. Yeah, and my whole family says the same thing, and it's like, of course, we wish that didn't happen, right? But what God turned for good out of it was insane.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

So yeah, it's yeah, I'm trying to think of how to put it like there's a lot there.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, there is there's so many layers there, and that's not the case for everything, but yeah, but a lot of times when you go through this honest processing with God, yeah, you don't it's like you realize the sanctification process is a blessing.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Yeah, and it's a lot of times where people like isolate or run away or whatever, like they don't lean in. And and that is I've I've seen people in my own life like not take I'm like not take the opportunity, I guess. And it's it it hurts my heart because I'm like, no, like he's got so much for you in this. Yeah. And just even walking with teenagers, like they teenagers nowadays, like they go through so much at such a young age. Yeah, they have to grow up real fast. Yeah, and it's not no, it's not fair, but it's reality. And just encouraging them all the time to like just lean, lean into the Lord, don't lean into anything else, lean into the Lord because Jesus is literally the only answer.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Like, and it's so often our, especially in unforgiveness too, like our fleshly response is to get mad at God. Right. Well, yeah, well, God, this is your fault. Yeah, and God's like, well, actually, it's like Job, like, right? I love God's response to Job is like boo ya. But God's like, actually, I'm God, and I'm much bigger than everything you're going through, and I'm the only good that is in this world. And and and like it flips your perspective of how you see it. So, anyways, I could keep going, but we gotta get to stage three. Okay, go for it. So, stage three. So, after you are aware and then you honestly process it with the Lord, you come to the decision phase, and this is whether you choose to forgive or you don't. Um and forgiveness is always a choice before it becomes a feeling. Um and this is you know what we talked about last week, what it is and what is it, what it isn't, and you weigh out what that means and you choose. Um, but as Christians, if you are a Christian, you don't really have a choice. Right. Um signed up for this. You signed up for this um if you're a Christian. And so I and I I told Larson before we started recording, I was like, I want to be steward this well, and because this is a heavy conversation and there's big it's a big topic, and and it means a lot to the Lord's heart, and I don't wanna I just wanna do it justice. I'm getting emotional talking about it now. Um because I've had seasons of my life where I have been very bitter. And so I don't want anyone listening to think that We got it figured out. Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

We don't like We are all a work in progress.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yes. And we just know that we're just trying our best to honor and obey the Lord as it comes and goes and repent quickly. Because I always I do need to repent still, but it literally I just pray it's quicker than it used to be.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah. And even even now, like doing the podcast together, like it's been a gut check every single week for each other.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Like just it's accountability for me too, because I'm like, okay, Lord. It's been good for me actually, because I'm like, okay, yeah, gotta keep walking it. So okay, so I was gonna read this. Um it comes right after the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6, um, which I thought was interesting. I'd never realized it was after directly after the Lord's Prayer when Jesus was teaching them out how to pray. But the last um two verses of that section of the chapter, it's Matthew 6, 14 and 15. Jesus says, For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your father will not forgive your sins. And I'm like, oh gosh, that is oh, but it's all about a gut check. Yes. So I wrestled with that and I prayed about it. And I'm like, Lord, how do I like convey this to people? And um, because some people get stuck on, well, the only way you get saved is through Jesus. And I'm like, that is correct. Yeah, forgiveness does not save you. But what it is saying is a heart that has been radically um radically changed by grace, like a a heart that fully understands the grace of God in their life, right, will be forgiving.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Right. So we're so undeserving, yes. Ourselves, yes. And uh we were talking about it earlier, and you were like, who are we to even not forgive ourselves?

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah. A lot of people get stuck on yeah, like they can forgive other people, but they can't forgive themselves. I'm like, who are we? I'm way better.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

I'm I'm like that. I yeah, yeah, like I'm hard by myself, yeah. Yeah, um, but yeah, it's it's such a it's such a thing that we need desperately. Yeah. That like I I can't, I know how much I need because I know my thoughts. And the Lord knows my thoughts, right? And it's a constant battle and every day like having to do it.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

But the gratitude I have that we get to.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yes. So, so like it doesn't mean that we earn salvation by forgiving, it means that a heart transformed by grace should become for a forgiving heart, and persistent unforgiveness reveals something unhealthy in us spiritually. Can you say that last line again? Yes, persistent. Persistent unforgiveness reveals something unhealthy in us spiritually. Yeah. Um and it's saying like God's sacrifice isn't big enough for them. And so I was thinking um of scripture that kind of aligns with this. And we talked about Jesus in the parable of the unmerciful servant. Do you mind reading that for me?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yeah, Rafa. Hang in there with me.

unknown 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Um, it says, Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times? Jesus answered, I tell you, not seven times, but seventy seven times. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. At this, the servant fell on his knees before him. Be patient with me, he begged, and I will pay back everything. The servant's master took pity on him, cancelled the debt, and let him go. But when the servant went out Sorry, swap into the next thing. When this can't follow. Sorry, when the servant went out, he found one of his fellow students who owed him a hundred silver coins, so less. He grabbed him and began to choke him. Pay back what you owe me, he demanded. His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, Be patient with me and I will pay it back. But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. Then the master called the servant in. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be honest. Okay, so I was scrolling Facebook, right? And there's people in my life, right, that I've walked through things with, or, you know, I've been hurt by things like that. And I tell I kid you not. It was like, I mean, obviously the Lord knew we were coming here to record the second part of this podcast, which I was already like it already felt heavy. We had talked about that. But I scroll past a post and I'm like, dang it, that's the person. I need to do it right now. Like I have to do it daily. Yeah. Forgiving. It's hard. I'm like, yeah, stupid baseball.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

But again, you can't do it without God. Right. That's the good news. Yeah, you just and and yes. So you choose to forgive, and as Christians, we're commanded to forgive because Jesus cares more about your soul than what hurt like he's your discomfort. Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah. Get uncomfortable. Yeah. And um, and he also cares more about your freedom. Yeah. Because when you don't forgive, you give a stronghold to that person, to that bitterness, to that sin. Right. And it becomes a little idol in your life. Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

And then it prohibits you're not, I feel like at that point you're not fully open and listening to the Lord because He's He's instructed us, right, in His Word. And then we're letting that be our thing we trip over.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah. And so I remember in middle school, I went to um Louis Giglio and Chris Tomlin did like a summer youth thing. Passion 268. Yeah, it was in Myrtle Beach or something. It was somewhere. And I remember Louis Giglio, it was the first time I'd ever heard it where he was like, okay, I'm gonna read out the Ten Commandments, and you guys raise your hand if you broke this or not. Or or or put your hand down if you and whoever has their hands left up, they're they're good to go to heaven or whatever. So he like starts reading through the 10 simple commandments that God gave Moses, right? So many went down on honor mother and father with with the middle schoolers. But like he's like, you know, we not one of us, even murder, you know, you get to murder, and I'm like, well, I haven't done that one. And and then it's like, actually, have you ever hated someone? Right. Right? Like, you know, yeah, have you ever committed adultery? Oh, well, have you ever looked at someone and lust, you know? And very quickly, my little seventh grade self was like, Oh my gosh, I'm in trouble. Like, I am, I thought I was a good kid, and I like crap. I'm oh no. And so, but I just remember that was how he set it up. He's like, You have to understand, like we need a savior. Yeah. Because one sin, the wages is death. Right. Right. And so to pay back a debt of death, you have to die. There's no, it's a debt you can't get out of. Yeah. Right. So it's it's not you can't pay back a debt, that debt. Like that's the ultimate. Right. It's not ultimate.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Not a few coins.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Right, right. And though, so there's sins that Pastor Jack was preaching on this a few weeks ago too, where there's sins that we that are the things we know we shouldn't do, we do. Right. But then there's the sins of we know we should do something and we don't do it. Like I was in the grocery store and someone said, Hey, you need to go tell that lady an encouraging word and I didn't do it. Like that's one. So like that there it feels very personal. Yes. But then every every thought that you have that does not honor God. Yeah. Scary. Right? Yeah. Every intention that was not pure. Yep. Like, I could keep going. Yeah. But I think we have enough evidence that we need a savior. And we've been so deeply forgiven. And we don't even fully understand how deeply forgiven we are and the extent we extent of it.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Yeah, because of our human nature too. So like sometimes we don't even realize until way after the fact, and you're like, oh shoot, last week. I was definitely thinking that. Like, oh dang. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

But it goes back to like the parable that Jesus told. Like, so I I have my clients who are like, I want to forgive, but I don't know how. But I'm like, well, first you got to start with how forgiven you are and receive it. Yeah. Receiving it. Yes, it's hard. And there's so many, and I've been like this in my life, so many people who struggle with believing that God could forgive them for what they'd done. Yeah. Or what they keep doing. Right? They're like, I keep falling into this stinking sin. And I like, I'm tired of asking for forgiveness. Um, and I'm like, the Lord will forgive you over and over and over again, but you have to keep picking up your cross and killing yourself a little bit every day. Yeah. And allowing him to do the transformation work. And I tell people all the time, I said, you can stumble, but stumble in the right direction, right? Like keep keep going. Um, but all that to say is when these people say, Well, how? Like, I don't understand. This person did X, Y, and Z. I don't know how I could ever forgive that person. I said, Well, first of all, Jesus died for them too. Yeah, his blood covers all of it and it covers you. But second of all, you were like that servant.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

You're right.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

You had a debt that could not be paid, and you deserved prison and torture for the rest of your days to pay it off. Yeah. And your master said, you know what, I'm just gonna forgive it. Yeah. And then you turn around and say, Oh, well, that guy owes me $10. Yeah. And you hold it. Right. You hold bitterness towards that person. Like it sounds silly when you look at it that way.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

It does sound silly, but it's also so true because you're like, Well, I can forgive this one, but that one better now step to me again. You know, like you you know, when you're thinking about it, because that's our that's our flesh and our human nature in that sense. And it is it's hard to fight against that.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

It really is.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yeah. And so that's why it's so important to not do it alone. Right. Do it with God and do it with healthy community that's going to encourage you to do the right thing. If you're hanging out with girlfriends who are like, oh you need to tell her about herself. Well, what I would do, what I would do, or you should do this on Facebook and stirring up contention and no, stop. Yeah. Stop. It'll never just stop it. Just stop it. But I like it wears me out, man. But but so so yeah. So decision phase is phase three. And then the last phase, um, I add two more phases at the end. But the last phase in counseling typically um is the work phase. So once you are aware, you see the scope of it, you're looking it in the face, you know what you're feeling and why you're feeling it. Next is processing it, asking God to come in and say, Okay, show me where you're at. What how am I going to use this? Because I'm not going to waste it, right? And then um the decision phase is like, okay, I'm going to just forgive that person. And that can be you in a like we talked about last week, that can be in you call somebody. Face to face is always best. We had this conversation in our Bible study. Yes. So if we biblically, if you can do it face to face, that's the best. Yeah. But if it's a situation where someone is no longer here, or if someone has really hurt you and it's unsafe, or if someone's in prison or whatever, like you don't have to you don't have to actually be in contact with someone in in order to forgive them.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

It's a release of of it's releasing vengeance to the Lord and giving them grace instead.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah. So break this down for me because there were times where I walked through forgiving and I'm still, you know, daily doing it, but like walking through, I would, I would, it would come up in my mind a lot, right? And triggers and things like that. And I would be like, Lord, am I actually forgiving them? Like I'm really trying, but like, why does this keep happening? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

I'm glad you said that because that's part of the work phase. Oh, so no. I didn't even read all that. No, clearly, it's fine. It's perfect. Perfect, perfect. The Lord. But no, that is normal. And that goes back to forgiveness is not a feeling. Yeah. And and we have the fact that you're wrestling with it is evidence of the Holy Spirit in you. Yeah. And that is a good thing. Yes, so like if it's bothering you that you're not forgiving them, that's a good thing, right? Yeah. And so you will in the work phase, you will identify your triggers because they will come back, right? Because triggers are saying, Oh, there's a little bit more. Let's dig it out. There's a little bit more. Um, emotions may resurface. Yeah. Old thoughts will try to reattach to you. And you have to re-release the person and the offense every time it comes up. Yeah. So it's kind of like love in a marriage. Like specifically, the idea I'm thinking of is like you wake up every day and you choose. Yeah. Right. You choose. You might not like your spouse. You might be in a hard, hard season or friend, or what, but whoever you're loving in your life, your children, you might not like your children all the time when they're yelling at you in the Disneyland. But but you choose to wake up and love them.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yeah. I've heard it before. It might have been my mom, like when my dad would aggravate her or something, he'd be like, Yeah, I love him. I just don't like him right now.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

That's kind of how it is.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Yes, it's very much like that. So forgiveness is like every day you wake up. Yeah. And you choose. And what happens is over time, uh because the the choosing is the obedience to God. It's saying, God, I receive your forgiveness for me. I believe that they are made in your image, and I'm going to give them grace because you've given me so much grace.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

It's a lot of accepting and realizing that, and then digging down deep and making sure you're you're choosing that.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

And also releasing and saying and another side of that too is God is a God of justice. Nobody's gonna get by. Yeah. Like He sees it all. Yeah. And so there will be a day where vengeance is the Lord. And everyone will be judged accordingly. And my prayer is that it I don't want anyone to go to hell. Yeah. Um and grace for you is that you're not gonna be able to do it. Yeah, grace for you. But even still, there's we talked about this in Bible study, like there's a reward system in heaven.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

And some of us will be in there by the skin of our teeth, and some of us, like the Lord counts up every little thing. Yeah. And it's and it's it's he's got it under control. He's a God of justice, and his justice is better than any vengeance we could ever have.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Um yeah, just like the plan for our lives. Yeah. Like it's even what we imagine, like it's nowhere near what he has planned. We just have to surrender. Surrender is a big word.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Yeah. Release and surrender go hand in hand. Yeah. And so, and something that John Eldridge says all the time is he says, Lord, I give everything and everyone to you. And he says I just repeat it until I feel it. Yeah. And sometimes, and I there are multiple times, like right now, I'm not in a season of unforgiveness, like, but I do feel a sense of overwhelm where I'll feel there'll be just life. Like life sticks on you. You know what I mean? And there are moments, multiple moments throughout my day, most days, I have to stop and breathe and say, God, I give everything and everyone to you. Yeah. I can't do it. Yeah. And I I'm not, and I'm not supposed to. Yeah. Right. Help me love them. Yeah. And also, I'm sorry I took some of your responsibility off your plate because it's yours anyway. So that's forgiveness, is the constant releasing it back, casting it back up there. Yeah. So the first phase is awareness, second phase is honest processing, third is decision making, fourth is the work of release. So that's when it's fresh and you're releasing it constantly, and then it's a little less, and it's a little less, and then it's once every now and then. And sometimes it completely goes away. But sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's something that has to keep being forgiven, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:00

But stuck like glue.

unknown 40:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

But you're stumbling in the right direction, right? And your heart is to forgive, and the Lord transforms your heart in obedience. Yeah. Like you obey the Lord, He transforms your heart. And then um the fifth one is refame reframing. This is similar to the second one, except now it's deeper. So it's saying, God, where were you? Um, and then the sixth is freedom. It no longer owns me. And it becomes a part of your testimony, yeah, and not your identity.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Yeah. Where you are comfortable enough to to share. Yes. And to help others.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

So it's not wasted. Yeah. Yeah. I think of that too. We talked a little bit before, but even about like communion, about like searching your heart before you partake in it as a Christian. And I feel like we miss that a lot of times. And I like I was telling her on the way in, like, there's been moments where I'm like, nope, can't take it today.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Like well, a lot of people don't even know that's like a thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Where like, can you share a little bit what you shared with me in the car of your experiences?

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Yeah. So I grew up in a church that I I don't remember them ever saying this. Like, either it just went over my head or like and was never talked about. But basically, like forgiving and and being, you know, clean and you're offering your sacrif like you're offering a sacrifice to the Lord. So like you want to search your heart and know and and forgive and take care of anything. So like when Rusty, my husband who passed away, when he would preach, he would do this before communion. He would, you know, explain that one, it's meant for Christians because it's, you know, partaking of the body and the blood and things like that, but um representations of that. And two, it's um if you have something against someone in your life, like you can go out in the hall right now, call your parent if it's your parent. He would tell teenagers this like, call your parent if it's your parent and make it right. Call your friend if it's your friend, if it's your friend sitting right beside you, talk about it right now before we even do this. And the first time I heard him say that, I was like, wait, what?

SPEAKER_02 42:12

What's happening?

SPEAKER_01 42:13

I was like, hold on, I got some work to do. Like, but I just I didn't realize it. And he just brought it to light every single time. Like, there wasn't one time where he didn't. And now, like I would see, you know, I would first, you know, search myself, but it was like such a beautiful thing to see teenagers walk across the auditorium to one another because they've been bickering at each other over like a boy or the dumbest things, yeah. And just like crash on the ground praying for each other and crying and forgiving one another and choosing that.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

It's beautiful, yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

It was, yes, it was.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

You know what you just said that I just had a light bulb go off and I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know if I ever realized this, but that originated in the Jewish temple, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Like you before you did a sacrifice, correct?

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Because you had to go through all the process, correct? Right. But now, now, instead of us giving the sacrifice, Jesus is giving us the sacrifice. So instead of us giving him something, he's giving us something, which is a perfect picture of receiving the forgiveness and grace of God. Right? Full circle. So before Jesus, we had to get ourselves clean, check ourselves before we went out to the altar to s to kill a cow or a sheep or a pigeon, whatever our sacrifice was to cleanse our sins and to be in right standing with God. Right. But it wasn't enough to last forever, right? Right. Until Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. And sacri forgiveness always costs something.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

I think I said that last time. I don't remember. But I'll I don't know if I did, so I'll say it this time. Yeah. But forgiveness always costs something, and and the blood of Jesus, there is no currency that can touch how much that costs. Right. No, no blood. Fat calf that can do that. No. The the currency of his blood, and there's nothing that can touch its worth, right? Right. And so how beautiful that you brought that up and that God brought that to your mind because you're like, I never really realized that we were supposed to check our hearts and ask if there's any unforgiveness in our hearts before we take communion. Because they did that in the Jewish temple before they gave a sacrifice, but now we do it to prepare our hearts to receive his forgiveness. Right. Because when we receive his forgiveness, he transforms our heart so we can forgive others. I don't think I ever realized that. Did you? No. I'm like, whoa.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Everybody's like, duh, y'all know. Yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Well, I just like I just put two and the other half of that together.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Yeah, because we were talking about it before and we didn't even talk about that. Like it's yeah, it's it's wild because and then that's like direct access. Yeah. Like that is yeah, that is still humbling yourself, that is still realizing that the price was paid, like that is still going through somewhat of a process, but it is it is complete freedom. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

So I want to encourage you, listeners. Listeners. Yes, tell me. I'm listening, I'm listening. I just straight looked up at her like, what? I want to encourage you. I know we talked about a lot today, and it's not all light and fluffy, but it the the good news is that we are forgiven, y'all. And we can receive it. And you can when you think, how in the world am I gonna forgive that person? You can because of Jesus. And only because of only because of Jesus. I wouldn't be able to. No. Nope. Absolutely. Nor would I want to. Yeah. Like, but he's the only reason I want to. Like he's the one that's during making me uncomfortable. Right. But it would be leave me alone.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

But it would be something that would be like untouchable if it wasn't for him.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Yes. Yeah. It's not humanly possible to fully forgive. Yeah. Because we don't know what it was, we wouldn't know what it was without Jesus. Yeah. So oh man. Mic drops all over. I know. I'm just like, it's just so I get emotional because it's like, man. Um so my encouragement to you is if you're struggling with receiving the forgiveness of Jesus, that's where you start. And I would encourage you to do communion at home. Yeah. You don't need to do it in a church. You can do it alone with the Lord and check your heart and say, Lord, search my heart and bring to mind what I need to lay down on my altar. Right. And then lay it down in prayer, give it to him, receive his forgiveness, thank him for what he did, love him for who he is, and take the grape juice or the wine and the bread and the saltines, whatever you got, and and receive that and sit in that for a minute.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

And then if you're struggling to forgive someone else, begin to walk that out with the Lord too. And if you need if like I do groups on forgiveness, if you need accountability groups, whatever, like reach out in the in the little box below the podcast, and we can connect you with people if you need community to help you walk that out. Yeah. Or counseling to help you walk that out. But the Lord will walk it with you too. Yeah. And so my encouragement is like if you have any unforgiveness, start with yours and then start walking towards unforgiving, forgiving someone else.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Even if you have to like in your if you write a prayer journal or whatever, like I have a couple pages where I'm like, I forgive X. Yeah. I forgive Y. Yeah. I forgive Z. Because I had, I was like, I gotta make sure because I don't want anything separating me from the Lord. It's not worth it. No.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

And again, it goes back to God paid too high a price for your soul for you to not receive it. Yeah. What a gift. What a gift. That's all I'm gonna say. Because I could, I'm just like, man, I'm still blown away by the communion thing. I'm like, geez, I never knew that. Um that is awesome, yeah. All right. I'm gonna pray.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Yeah. Okay, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Lord Jesus, thank you. We honor you and praise you for the sacrifice you made and the blood you shed for our forgiveness. We were the undeserving servant, and we still are. But Lord, you came and bought us back. And you don't leave us there. You continue to polish us up and clean us up and transform our hearts as we walk with you. You're so patient, you're so kind, you're so good, and you desire for us to be free in every way now and forever. And so, Lord, I just pray that the listener receives the love you have for them right now. And if they are harboring bitterness or anger or anything that is underneath unforgiveness, God, I pray that you rip it open, make them uncomfortable and walk it out with them to freedom. Because there is no sin worth being separated from you. You bought our ticket, and there's no sin I want to hang on to over that. So, Lord, thank you for your love and thank you for making a way. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen. Amen.